From Wikimedia Commons
I recently came across a web page on which a Mormon man recounted his first temple endowment experience. Following his story, he posted “sincere replies from other church members” who wrote about their own first temple experiences. The perspectives of these Mormons who were excited and ready for the spiritual experience of their lives is really interesting and filled with insight for those of us who have never been through a Mormon temple endowment ceremony. I encourage you to read the whole web page if you have the time, but for the sake of discussion here at Mormon Coffee, here it is in a nutshell. (Please note that many of these experiences pre-dated the 1990 temple ceremony changes; therefore, some things mentioned are no longer part of the ceremony as it is performed in Mormon temples today.)
The anonymous man who wrote the initial story talked about his pre-temple expectations for what he would learn and experience:
…I prepared for my first time all excited, expecting the endowment ceremony to be about the ministry of Jesus Christ. I thought, perhaps they would enact the Sermon on the Mount? Or maybe they would show the Last Supper and have us participate as disciples? Or maybe they would portray other scenes in Christ’s ministry that were lost to time that revealed spiritual meanings.
Above all, I fully expected the temple covenants to be related to Christ’s ministry – helping the poor and the sick, forgiving others and loving one another. I imagined that I would see some of Christ’s parables enacted, and then make a covenant to do as Jesus taught. For example, covenant to be a good Samaritan, or forgive the prodigal sons among us, or not judge others.
…I imagined the temple would be an elaboration on the main things Jesus had lived and taught us to do…
What a disappointment.
Unfulfilled expectations. Many Mormons wrote about what they imagined the temple ceremony would be like, only to be disappointed. They thought it would be highly spiritual, uplifting and wonderful. Some even thought it possible that Jesus Himself would be there.
I remember wanting to have some clue of what to expect and, of course, my loved ones would only say that it was “wonderful, spiritually enlightening, and the closest thing to heaven that exists on this earth.” I halfway took that, in my own mind, to mean that Jesus would be there in person. What else could be so sacred that we could not talk about it, even with other worthy temple Mormons?
Instead of being spiritually moved, these Mormons found the temple ceremony to be “boring,” “belittling,” and “bizarre.” One Mormon wrote about his/her experience:
It would have been creepy to get naked [while wearing a poncho-like “shield”] and be touched by a stranger and then have them dress you in hideous underwear even without the bait-and-switch atmosphere, but I think the way they set it up so you go in there being told it’s going to be a wonderful experience, and then having it be something that’s awful, and then having to reconcile in your mind the temple oaths and learning weird code words and making sure all your temple clothes are on and tied just right and being naked are the things that are monumentally important to Heavenly Father adds to the disappointment and the confusion…
Confusing. This was another common theme in these stories. These Mormons were confused over what they were learning in the temple. A few examples:
The secret temple handshakes and passwords were what really freaked me out though. God needs handshakes? I thought he knew us enough to just let us through the veil into heaven.
—
I also didn’t understand that if God loved me, and I was doing what he wanted, would I have to worry about my throat being slit.
—
Then we started receiving handshakes, making signs and learning death penalties. I was blown away. This seemed like a secret combination to me. I had a sick feeling in my stomach. It seemed that the Book of Mormon had warned against such secret combinations which used handshakes. I was a bit confused.
Surprising. Instead of finding the temple ceremony centered on Jesus (as they had been told to expect), some Mormons noted that they found it focused more on Satan. One wrote, “There was little Jesus but plenty of Satan.” Another wrote, “Jesus Christ’s brother Satan, on the other hand, is the star of the temple ceremony.” After explaining that during the ceremony Satan tells people that if they don’t keep the covenants they make in the temple they will be in Satan’s power, one Mormon wondered,
If the rites were really God’s truth, then wouldn’t Satan be trying to talk everyone out of them? If I pray to Satan to ask him what I should do, would he answer: “Be a good Mormon or I’ll get you?”
The temple endowment made me wonder, whose side is Satan actually on? Apparently he’s on the Mormon Church’s side – that is, if you take the temple ceremony seriously.
So just follow Satan’s advice if you want to be a good Mormon. That’s what I learned in the temple.
Frightening. Total shock upon experiencing the temple endowment ceremony was a common theme among Mormons writing of their “first times.” They wrote of being “afraid” in the temple, of the ceremony having been a “horrible experience,” and being “freaked out.” One wrote, “As we stood in the prayer circle in our temple clothes with our hands raised, I looked around and thought ‘oh no, I’m in a cult!’” Another wrote,
So my first time through the temple I was freaked, wondering, is this a cult? If so, don’t give in, but keep quiet. I raised my hand for the oaths like everybody else and said, yes, but each time, inside mentally recited NO!
One Mormon summed up,
I passed through the veil into the beautiful celestial room of the Salt Lake City temple. It was full of people dressed as unusual as I was. What an eerie sight. My parents were already there…
Everyone was happy. But inside I was confused. The experience was different than what I had anticipated. My mother explained that I needed to go often to understand it better. After a few minutes, we left and returned to the locker room where I shed my robes for my suit, attired now in my garments.
When we left, I was afraid.
Eventually, the strangeness of the temple wore off. Repeated visits makes it all seem normal. But one thing never changes, the look of people’s faces in the session company. As a temple worker later in my life, I would often look at the faces of those attending. Nearly all of them had an empty look. No smiles, no interest, no nothing. We all just sat there enduring to the end.
Erecting a Façade. Not all Mormons feel this way about their temple experiences, of course. Surely there are those who share their honest opinions when they tell un-endowed Mormons that the temple is wonderful and the closest thing to heaven on earth. Yet, I wonder how many just go through the motions. One woman talked about how uncomfortable she was in the temple and wrote, “My family and closest friends are there, so unless I want to disappoint everyone I care about, I’m stuck…”
Another Mormon described his ongoing struggle this way:
But I tried. I honestly tried. I whittled myself down over years of temple attendance to try to fit into that mold prepared for me. It was so uncomfortable.
It was a serious Emperor’s New Clothes moment each time I went back through the temple.
Dad: “Son, wasn’t that just awesome?”
Me: “uh, yeah Dad… totally.”
But inside I was screaming…
Because it wasn’t.
Christians, we have good news for these people: the Emperor really “hasn’t got anything on.” Mormons may carry on the pretense, praising the temple just as the people in Hans Christian Andersen’s story praised the Emperor’s new clothes, but the fact is, all are naked and exposed before God. The temple has nothing to offer, nothing to make us presentable to God. It is the Lord, Himself clothed with majesty, who provides us with exquisite attire that no moth can destroy.
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD;
my soul shall exult in my God,
for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation;
he has covered me with the robe of righteousness.
(Isaiah 61:10)
It’s strange that this “sacred” ceremony can be equated with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
It’s no wonder why the Mormon hierarchy quietly dumped significant parts of this secret
ritual in 1990, but then flip flops on “gospel truths” is’nt new behavior for these men .
“Follow Satan’s advice if you want to be a good Mormon.” – hah, I like that.
For being the father of lies and the ultimate deceiver his method for getting people to join his ranks is just plain awful. Would he be so straightforward in his approach to “get you”? – I hardly think so.
Fear is a mighty fine tool in the toolbelt of the LDS church.
Guh, just reading what these people wrote makes me feel uncomfortable and “freaked out”. I don’t like awkward situations nor do I like seeing people in awkward situations.
Maybe one of our Mormon posters can explain something to me.
I can’t find any where, evidence that the first century Christian church, went to Christian temples and performed these Mormon rituals which are suspiciously like those performed in Free Masonry.
Didn’t Joseph Smith institute these rituals after becoming a Free Mason? What a coincidence. Just one more sign of progressive revelation I guess.
If these rituals are so sacred, how can they be changed? OOPS, I forgot. It means there was progress.
Some Mormons have reportedly seen the spirits of dead people while involved in the dunking for the dead ritual. So we have necromancy and seer stone looking as an integral part of Mormonism. Is it any wonder some Mormons feel more than a little uncomfortable with the scene?
And Mormons call it highly “spiritual”. It would be more accurate to place these things under the heading of “spiritualism”. Mormons may as well partake in a seance and haul out the Owedji boards.
I never went through the endowment thing myself. Wearing the open-sided sheet thing before getting baptized for the dead kinda weirded me out, and made me not want to go back for that reason. But like Sharon quotes above, I still thought that the marriage-event would be the closest to heaven I would ever get here on Earth. I kinda felt like it would be sort of a “portal” event, with the ceiling of the temple supernaturally joining God’s throne room. I really believed that I would never FEEL more holy, or close to holiness, than I would inside.
After my folks left the church, they told me what happened in there, and how they felt about it. That experience was an eye-opener for sure. I COULDN’T BELIEVE that I had been told all my life what a wonderful place it was, even in Primary and our little primary songs. YUCK!! It made me so angry that I had to print the whole thing out for myself, and read it. Still unbelievable. And yes, Satanic. So glad I never went through and made the covenants.
Sharon mentions some themes in the testimonies from these Mormons , and one of these was
that of confusion. It seems that they were confused over what they were doing and/or learning
during these secret ceremonies . Perhaps they had difficulty remembering where this was part
of Jesus’ gospel as taught in the New Testament and also in the Book of Mormon which is said
to clarify and compliment the New Testament’s testimony because together they promote the
fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ , according to Mormonism’s modern -day apostles . One
thing is clear and that is Mormon leaders have made it known that a key identifying mark of
apostate churches is that they produce confusion . So I hope that these Mormons who went
through the Temple came out with a conviction that this is’nt right, this is’nt authentic gospel
truth , where was Jesus in all this ??? May they have come to experience the great dynamic
truth : no secret temple ritual necessary , just JESUS — Heb 7:25
Just for fun I googled “The Power of Ceremony” to see what would pop-up. Believe it or not, there’s a book written by a woman named Linda Neale; by that name. It’s all centered on native American culture and focuses on the topic of renewal. Believe me, I’m not endorsing the book, but the power of ceremony in religion is very important. It’s also important in initiating people into a group of any sort. It’s part of the buy-in process and getting and solidifying commitment. Here’s an excerpt from a review of the book.
“Neale uses the term “initiation hunger” to try to explain the need of many of us, particularly the young and vulnerable, to be involved and participate in ceremony. Instead of finding that sense of peace and involvement, drugs, violence and even terrorism have become more prevalent. As we fight our feelings of disconnectedness and disenfranchisement we have a choice—to move forward via ceremony, or to stay stagnant and unfulfilled. Neale is careful to say that whatever the belief system that we come from in our lives, whatever our higher power is, we can be enriched AND enrich the lives of others by studying and implementing ceremonial patterns as part of our daily lives.”
The Mormon ceremony is all about making covenants which will keep those initiated into the group, in the group. The SLC Mormon sect dropped the throat slitting and bowel dissecting actions however think about the fear that is instilled by participating in something like this.
It’s instructive that many who go through these ceremonies are weirded out by them. So they are told to just keep going through the temple until it seems normal. That’s a psychological process called desensitization.
setfree,
I feel the same way. As a girl growing up in Mormonism, we were taught that our goal was to marry a returned missionary and be sealed in a LDS temple. The temples are beautiful and that is part of the romanticising for us girls. I was told how I needed to find a man who would take me through so that I would have a forever family. I went in for a bishop interview when I was in my 20’s and married with a few babies, to get a temple recommend for myself because my husband just wasn’t interested in going. He didn’t mind if I went, he just wasn’t into it, so I did have his “permission” that they required. My bishop wouldn’t give me a recommend. He said that even though I was worthy to have one, if I went without my husband then my husband would never go. I tried this again several years later and with a different bishop and got the same result. It was my “job” to get my husband to the temple. I remember being angry for a long time about it, but now I’m thankful. I’ve said on here before that I would have left my poor husband (who was only doing it for me) standing at the alter and I’d be waiting in the parking lot. I do know what goes on in the temple now. It is NOTHING like I was taught. I don’t feel that the temple is “sacred” at all. It’s secret and they have to keep it that way by putting fear into people not to reveal anything because if people really knew before hand, no one would go.
Thankfully there’s been a sizeable group of people who have testified as to what goes on in
the Mormon Temple endowment ceremony, thus exposing the aspects of this secret ritual.
When non-Mormons have asked Mormons about Temple ceremonies the usual response
has been rather strange because on one hand Mormons have invited others to investigate
the Mormon gospel . The following was/is a normal offer: ” ….we court such an investigation ,
for there certainly nothing connected with us , as a religious community, in consonance with
the gospel we preach, that we should be ashamed of, or that should not be known by all men ….
We not nothing hidden or covered up neither can we respect any principle or individual that
will not bear the daylight and the most careful investigation. ” [ Joseph F. Smith JofD,v20p.25]
Ok great, I’d like to investigate this “restored gospel ” , so what can you tell me about the
Temple rituals ?
The response : ” Because of it’s sacredness and the prohibitions the Lord established to
protect its sanctity , many of the beautiful ordinances of the holy endowment and much
of the detailed instruction involved cannot be disclosed.” [ Temple president John K.Edmunds
Through Temple Doors, 1978 p 74 ] . Mormon Apostle Boyd Packer admits that when LDS
are asked questions about the Temple ceremony that the response is usually : ” We are not
free to discuss the Temple ordinances and ceremonies.” [ The Holy Temple, 1980, p.28 ]
Not free ? What’s with that ? The true gospel= freedom and light . “restored” gospel = bondage
and secrecy . Gal. 1:8-9
Pertinent information relative to this topic is in an article of the Salt Lake Messenger[#75].
Researcher David John Buerger found after an analysis of Temple work in his own district
that there was a declining rate of such work (mid 1980’s) . He found that , ” I have heard a
number of themes from people who feel discomfort in one degree or another with elements
of the Temple ceremony….Probably in no other settings except college organizations, with
their attendant associations of youthfulness and possibly immaturity , do most Mormons
encounter secret ceremonies with code handshakes , clothing that has particular significance
and perhaps most disturbing to some, the implied violence of the penalties.Various individuals
have commented on their difficulty in seeing these elements as ‘ religious ‘ or ‘ inspirational’
originating in the desires of a loving Father for His children….” It seems that within months
of Buerger’s research that the Mormon hierarchy made it’s own survey of members opinions.
Among the questions asked were if members had a unpleasant experience with going thru the
Temple. The results of this survey must have been eye-opening for Mormon leaders because
only 2 years later significant changes in the Temple endowment ceremony occurred in 1990.
The article continues : ” For many years Christians have spoken against the very things which
have now been removed . Why did it take so long for Mormon leaders to obtain their
‘ revelation ‘ on the subject ? …. Church leaders are really destroying the original teachings of
Joseph Smith in a very sneaky way. Each time they remove some part that Smith considered
vital,they clothe the action by saying it is a new revelation from God. [cont]
cont.
” When will the people wake up and realize what is going on ? We, of course agree that
Joseph Smith’s teachings are filled with errors . We feel, in fact, that sweeping changes
need to be made, but we do not believe it is being honest to do it under the guise of
‘ revelation’ . Instead, the General Authorities of he Church should openly admit that
they feel Joseph Smith departed from Christian teachings and then propose a plan to
effect the changes that need to be made. It is seems obvious , however, that they will not do
this because they know they will lose power with the people . It is much easier to say that the
prophet has had a new ‘ revelation’ , and that of course marks ‘ the end of controversy ‘ .
O. Kendall Whitehas pointed out that the Mormon leaders claim of ‘ continuing revelation’
is really a mechanism which they use to side step acknowledging the ‘ errors of the past’ .
This of course leads to the impression that ‘ the church is never wrong ‘ ” .
May the Mormon people come to realize that contrary to the claims of their leaders to have
received the same gospel as preached by Jesus’ original apostles , in reality these men have
clearly departed from that simple gospel by introducing their own ideas as gospel truth .
May the precious Mormon people come to embrace the stable life changing gospel of
salvation preached by apostles that Jesus appointed to preach . This gospel is available in
the New Testament for all to receive —no secret ceremonies, just Jesus.
Kate,
This is something I’ve wondered about. If a Mormon wife has a husband who isn’t all that into the Temple ritual program and all that it entails, isn’t the woman kind of stuck? That is, she’s not going to become a goddess because her husband isn’t interested in doing what it take to become a god. And what does that do to the forever family.
I’m being nosy but were you able to do the sealings in the temple with your children if your husband wasn’t willing to do the rest of the program?
falcon,
This is so crazy. Yes the woman is “stuck” when it comes to her husband, but not to worry, if you are a righteous woman and worthy, you will have a husband in Heaven. No, my children can not be sealed to me without my husband. So where does that leave my children? If I am sealed to another man in Heaven, are my children sealed to us if they are worthy? See I wasn’t allowed to ask too many questions of my family members because they just don’t know and the answer I have gotten from them all is a wave of the hand and ” God has that all figured out, don’t worry about it, it will all work out.” It’s all so bizarre!
Kate and any other former Mormons on here (or current ones if you’d like to answer), here’s a question that I’ve tried to ask before to my LDS friend and haven’t received a straight answer: If your parents are worthy Mormons sealed to each other, presumably you, as their child, are sealed to them for all eternity as well, yes? Then if you get married to a worthy Mormon man and are sealed together and have children who are presumably sealed to you. Your husband’s parents were also sealed together, etc. Here’s the question: which family do you spend eternity with?
SR,
You haven’t received a straight answer because there isn’t one. That’s why the old stand by is “God has it figured out and it will work out how it’s supposed to.” Or, “We aren’t meant to know everything.” I would say that this falls into the bizarre category. Isn’t it so much easier and more peaceful to just follow Jesus?
I don’t think I could possibly live like that. I mean, there are lots of things I don’t know the answers too and God works in great and wondrous ways but the lack of logic involved with the Mormon church makes me crazy.
The same friend also told me that she doesn’t believe (or wasn’t taught, I’m not sure which) that she needs a husband to get into heaven. Which, technically, is half-true and the case of doublespeak isn’t it? Since Mormon “heaven” is accessible to pretty much everyone, just which level you get in to depends on certain things.
Some of these questions have been answered many times in the past. Lets do it one more time for the dummies (an aussie ad/saying, nothing derogatory, trust me).
The LDS believe that everyone will get at least one proper chance to have all the necessities done, including baptism, endowments, sealing, etc. We also believe that our salvation and exaltation are dependent on one person and one thing only – ourself and our faith in Jesus (Article of faith 2). Thus a wife’s salvation and exaltation does not depend on her husband and vice versa. If a spouse is not a member or unworthy by choice then the worthy partner will still be able to gain exaltation. As Kate has said, there is no answer as to what happens, but many have conjectured that the single person will be given to another in the Celestial Kingdom for eternity. Considering our theology about the eternities, this makes logical sense, and is also taught that this happens to people who did not get a proper chance to get married on this earth. As far as the children go, they will be sealed to the parent in the Celestial Kingdom, they only need to be sealed to one, not both.
As far as who do you live with? You live with your spouse as that is your family unit. Your parents and your children, although sealed to you will be living with their respective spouses. The sealing means that the family unit and relationship remains for eternity, but just like this earthly life, it does not mean that you live in each others’ pockets forever. Have a bit of common sense.
Luke 20:27-35:
27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. 28 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married a woman and died childless. 30 The second 31 and then the third married her, and in the same way the seven died, leaving no children. 32 Finally, the woman died too. 33 Now then, at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?”
34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage
Also, Ralph, I’m insulted that you claim I should use common sense. There is no common sense when it comes to Mormonism. The reason I asked, and it’s funny that you said it like it was obvious, is that the LDS church puts so much emphasis on families. In fact, mormon.org states “In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints families come first.”
In fact, Jesus Christ says in Matthew 10:37 — 37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
Furthermore, the mormon.org website states, in a paragraph about marriages made in heaven: our children also become part of this heavenly promise—sealed to us forever.
Also in a question on mormon.org titled “What do Mormons believe about families?” the answer (official answer, not one of the submitted answers) is: Mormon’s [sic] believe that they can be “sealed” or bound together through His power enabling them to live together in eternity. [emphasis mine]
Therefore, it is completely logical to ask who a child will be sealed to in heaven — her parents or her husband.
Ralph,
Your post is a jaw dropper for me. Common sense? Children cannot be sealed to just one parent unless that parent has a spouse they are sealed to, for example, my friend’s parents were divorced and her mother was married to her stepfather, they wanted to be sealed in the temple with her and her siblings, her biological father refused to sign permission and they could not be sealed to them. Point is, there has to be a father and a mother during the sealing. I could not take my children and have them sealed to me without a man, either their biological father or a step father. THERE HAS TO BE A FATHER AND A MOTHER. After the children turn 18 they no longer need permission from either parent to be sealed.
“Do the women, when they pray, remember their husbands?… Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? “What!—my husband to be my lord?” I ask, Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom [during the temple ceremony] without the aid of your husband. If you did, it was because your husband was away, and some one had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant. (Erastus Snow, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 291)
So if a woman isn’t “worthy” for her husband to receive her, she will be received as a servant.
SR, despite what Ralph said, you did ask a very logical question . You cited the official Mormon
church position on families where they claim that families come first . Most of what they teach
about families can be found in the Bible , so we certainly don’t need “modern-day” prophets
to reveal those principles, so together with help from the Holy Ghost and a little wisdom from
parents strong families can be created . But it’s not easy today for sure . Now let’s take a look at
some counsel from Mormon leaders on some things related to families . We’ll see if these men
actually do provide consistent trustworthy spiritual guidance , and we’ll see if the following
is an example of common sense from them also. First , there is the policy created by these men
where a woman who is getting married in the Temple can’t have even her father present because
he is deemed ” impure” by these men , his “sin” could be only that of drinking tea or coffee so he
is barred from the temple . [ note: this is what happens when Mormon leaders equate “church
standards ” with Gospel standards ] . Second, there is the terrible way that Mormon have been
counseled to treat their Heavenly Mother . Concerning their Heavenly Father Mormons
are counseled: ” IF we love our Father in heaven , we should pray and talk to Him.”
[ Elder Bernard Brockbank, Gen Conf. April 1971 ]. But when it comes to expressing their
love to Heavenly Mother by talking to Her , telling Her they love Her, Mormons are told that
praying to her is not appropriate christian behavior !
Is this Godly counsel ? Common sense?
So I’ve been thinking, if all the ordinances like sealing husbands and wives and families have to be done here on earth in a LDS temple because it can’t be done by us after we are dead, then how can these women (single, divorced, widowed) be given to another man in Heaven? Wouldn’t someone have to figure out they needed a man and have them sealed here in a temple to that man? What if that man in the celestial kingdom didn’t want her? Could he refuse to “receive” her?
SR,
I’ve quoted these same passages. The problem is that Mormons twist scripture any which way they can to try and make it fit Mormonism. It doesn’t matter that Jesus said this himself or that he spoke plainly, it has to be twisted or just plain thrown out as ” not translated correctly.”
The LDS church does teach that we will live together as families, otherwise what’s the point in being sealed as a family. Ralph is misleading, I don’t know if it’s on purpose or that he just doesn’t know the official teaching. I also find it interesting that he had to result to attacking personally ” Let’s do it one more time for the dummies” and “use a bit of common sense” You are right about one thing though, there is no common sense in Mormonism, otherwise people would not be so gung ho on giving their lives to a man with a magic rock……if they are even aware of the magic rock that is.
……..and where does all of this super spiritual Mormon stuff come from? I can’t find it in the Bible. The traditions of the Church and writings of the Church fathers don’t contain it. Even the heretics don’t mention it.
Soooooooooooooo I guess it was really, really lost. It was so lost that there is no record of it.
Isn’t “revelation” a marvelous thing? All a guy has to do is convince some people that he is a prophet and he’s receiving super duper secret stuff from a god he has invented himself. Ya gotta love these guys. They certainly are a clever bunch.
Why not hop on board any one of a dozen or so “prophets” that were receiving revelations at the same time as Joseph Smith. There was a lot of this going on in that particular era.
When we were discussing this sometime in the past, I brought up Marie Osmond, who I happen to like even though I don’t know her personally. As an aside, through diet, exercise and what we in our house call “having had some work done”, still looks pretty sharp.
Anyway, Marie marries husband number one. They have kids. They get divorced. Now things get complicated because there are all sorts of kids blended in when Marie gets married a second time (husband number two). Well then Marie and husband number two get divorced. Marie then remarries husband number one.
OK now who is Marie sealed to? Who are her and his and his kids sealed to? Could we just seal the whole bunch together and call Marie a polygamist?
Let’s face it, what Joseph Smith created is an absolute mess.
This is what happens when people follow a guy with a magic rock!
falcon,
Marie would be sealed to hubby #1 because she would have to have a temple divorce from hubby #2. The kids are another story though. Kids of hubby #1 would probably be sealed to her and hubby #1 if they hadn’t been sealed by permission to hubby #2. Kids from hubby #2 would only be sealed to Marie if hubby #2 gave permission for them to be sealed to hubby #1. What happens if hubby #2 won’t consent? Well then I guess the poor kids are SOL until they reach 18 and can decide for themselves if they want to be sealed to Marie and hubby #1. Of course if hubby # 2 is remarried in a temple and sealed to that wife, the kids could get sealed to hubby #2 and the new wife, with permission from Marie. It’s all so ridiculous! She is a good example though. I know a few divorced women who haven’t had a temple divorce because they believe that man is their ticket to the celestial kingdom. I don’t understand it because if a woman can’t stand the man here, why would she want to spend an eternity with him? I worked with a lady who said she wanted to divorce her deadbeat husband and that she’s to the point that she doesn’t care if it means she won’t go to heaven. How truly sad. She can get to heaven (live with God again) through Jesus.
Ralph,
I have a question, if Mormons who make it to the celestial kingdom receive their own planet and become a god, does that mean they have to leave the celestial kingdom to rule it? How can one be god on their own planet and be in the celestial kingdom at the same time?
SR,
I am not going to get into the interpretation of the scripture you gave as I have heard many arguments about it and i am not a scriptorian.
Can you show me where I said anything about we have to love our family more than God? I never said that. If you want to know what the church teaches, we teach that we should love Heavenly Father more than anything else in this world, including our own life, parents, spouse, child, etc. Heavenly Father is our first priority and then our spouse then child and then parents from all that I have been taught.
As for family ties in the Celestial Kingdom, there is nothing in the quotes you gave that invalidate what I said, maybe I just didn’t explain it enough for you. The family unit is sealed for eternity so that we can be a family forever, yes, but we will only be living with our spouse as a respective family unit. When it comes to parents and children, they will live with their respective spouse not you.
So what does the forever family mean? What is the difference between a group of people living together and a family on this earth? With a family there is a greater spiritual, emotional, physical, etc bond than within a group, isn’t there? In the Celestial Kingdom those bonds still exist. In the other kingdoms they do not, so although you may be able to interact with your family members, there is no family bond there anymore. You will be interacting as friends and acquaintances only.
Kate,
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. You asked in your original post ”No, my children can not be sealed to me without my husband. So where does that leave my children? If I am sealed to another man in Heaven, are my children sealed to us if they are worthy?” In answer to your question your children will be sealed to you as their mother, and that will be all that is needed at that point in time, from my understanding.
Do you remember being taught that this earth will be the Celestial Kingdom for those who lived on it? This will be the planet we live on and direct our affairs from. We do not need to leave the Celestial Kingdom to rule anything. That would be like asking the queen of the British Empire if she needs to leave London to rule over Australia. At no time in history has that happened, the monarchs have ruled Australia quite happy from home in London. That saying, we can leave and visit the places we govern over when or if we want to.
Ralph,
Sorry, sometimes it’s hard to understand just what people are saying .
Yes I remember being taught that this earth will be the Celestial Kingdom, it doesn’t make sense that it will be full of gods ruling other worlds, that sounds a little Greek pagan to me.
“Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters; indeed, there will be no end to the increase of his own children: for each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. AS SOON AS EACH GOD HAS BEGOTTEN MANY MILLIONS OF MALE AND FEMALE SPIRITS, AND HIS HEAVENLY INHERITANCE BECOMES TOO SMALL, TO COMFORTABLY ACCOMMODATE HIS GREAT FAMILY, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones. Thus each God forms a world for the accommodation of his own sons and daughters who are sent forth in their times and seasons, and generations to be born into the same. The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited.” (Orson Pratt, The Seer, 37, March 1853)
What does he mean by inheritance? Does he mean just the celestial kingdom, or does he mean more, like say his own spiritual world where he and his wife/wives will have plenty of room to procreate millions of spirit children? It seems really bizarre that all exalted men and women will be living in the same place procreating spirit children together like a community. Is this what the Mormon god is doing right now?
Is he living in a community of gods, governing this world from his father’s celestial kingdom? Is he going to leave his father’s celestial kingdom and live on this world after the resurrection? How else would exalted Mormon men and women be able to live in his presence? There’s just too many questions that don’t have logical answers. I have to ask where Jesus is in any of this. The answer is, He isn’t.
Kate, you’re right about the teachings of Mormon apostles , much what they have offered as
spiritual truth is foreign to what Jesus instructed His apostles to teach in the New Testament.
Gods, Goddesses, Grandfather Gods, sinful men progressing to become worshiped as
future Almighty Gods , this is the fruit of Mormon prophets/apostles—Matt.7:15. It’s
important to note that Ralph has testified that in the future he’ll be in the same position
as described of Jehovah in Rev 4:8-11 . Sadly that’s Ralph’s goal , and it’s consistent with what
Mormon leaders have taught —the law of eternal progression. So I love how you’ve got
your focus correct now because you’re right about Jesus. All focus is to be on Jesus , all
worship, glory, is due Him forever . Sinful Mormon males becoming Almighty ” Heavenly
Fathers” is the Mormon gospel , but the true gospel is all worship, praise, go to Jesus /Jehovah
FOREVER . So you’re spot on with your evaluation of Jesus. In the future it’s still about Him,
the only worshiping going on anywhere will be of the one true Almighty God , the Lord God
Jehovah . No other Gods/Goddesses/ Grandfather Gods , sinful men becoming Gods ruling
on worlds either above or below the one True God . He’s just to majestic and encompassing .
Now that’s glorious .
Kate/Mike,
Thank you for your contributions above. This is all so bizarre; the endless speculation and spin these Mormon leaders gave/give to this false notion. All we’d have to do is print that quote from Orson Pratt on a card and distribute it to people and that’s all they’d need to know about Mormonism.
And think of it. Mormons think they are in the spiritual gifted and talented group having deep spiritual understanding into matters that the “natural” man can’t accept.
It’s an age old game played by religious charletons and con men. These guys make the followers think they’re into something super deep that only can be understood via special revelation. What a farce!
Mormonism has limited appeal because of its bizarre beliefs. There’s a reason why the full story can’t be told to prospects. It’s the old bait and switch game. There’s a reason why even those born into Mormonism jump ship.
By limited appeal I mean that there is only a small segment of the population that would want to join what amounts to a religious lodge. These rituals offend the sensibilities of people. Mormons delude themselves into thinking that there’s something wrong with the people who walk away from Mormonism after experiencing the temple. Actually those that leave are the wise ones, having rightly discerned that these rituals are based in the occult.
Falcon, whether it’s the temple endowment ceremony or the teachings about God that Mormon
apostles have delivered to their people, it’s all a good example of how men can stray from the
true gospel of Jesus . This type of behavior is nothing new as Paul warned of these men coming–
2Cor. 11:13 . The Mormon people need to ask themselves if their apostles can teach much in
the way of living a moral lifestyle ( they do) could they have missed the mark when it comes to
some important truths about God ? Is that possible ? Are false prophets/apostles always
immoral , conniving individuals like Brian David Mitchell (he kidnapped Elizebeth Smart) ?
The Mormon people would do well to ponder this . When we have men claiming to be apostles, claiming to be personally supervised by Jesus Himself to teach gospel truths then we must stop
and ask some questions and not just get lulled into accepting them just because they’re polite
well dressed individuals . Mormon apostles are religious men who have strayed well beyond
the truth about God that Jesus directed His apostles to teach as revealed in the N.T. So
Mormon apostles are thus getting many their teachings about God from another source, and
it’s obviously their own reasoning , their own ideas of what they feel is correct, but not from
Jesus . Apostle Pratt, who Kate cited , had much to say about who the God of scripture is , and
he missed the mark terribly .Paul rightly predicted apostles like Orson Pratt would come —
2Cor 11 :13 . ( note: some of what Pratt taught was deemed not sound , by B.Y.).
I think I’ve mentioned before that in standardized testing two questions are asked regarding the instrument being used (to do the assessment). Is the test valid? Is the test reliable.
I think the same questions could be applied to Mormon prophets, apostles and other leaders.
As to “are they valid” I would ask if they meet the criteria set forth by the Scriptures for the offices they hold. As to “are they reliable”……..it doesn’t take long examining what these men have done, said and taught to determine that they come up short in this area also.
I’ve never seen a group of people, that is Mormons, who can come up with the most preposterous explanations to justify those they’ve given themselves over to for leadership.
It’s hard to figure when these Mormon apostles and prophets can so easily be dismissed, why the Mormon people cling to them? It’s more than the psychology behind making a bad purchase and then rationalizing (the purchase) in order to save face. The Mormon people believe these guys are the genuine article.
I’ve recently been told of two women who’ve finally thrown their no good husbands out of the house. I’ve known about the situation for some time and often wondered why these women put up with what people on the outside could see as a couple of bums; total losers.
Believing in someone or something to an individuals own detriment isn’t all that unusual, unfortunately. I keep coming back to the fact that most Mormons on the rolls of the LDS church don’t participate (in the church) on a regular basis. Also, half of returning missionaries go inactive.
There is hope!
Very interesting experiences. As my wife and I look back to our time in mormonism, the temple experience was a low point. After all of the preparation and build it we found it not only disappointing and weird but creepy and frankly demonic. We never went back even though we maintained our temple recommends. Little wonder the mormon leadership makes people wait a year before going and building it up so that when you arrive and are creeped out you assume it must be you, not the temple, because of course the temple is the greatest place on earth.