Much has been written over last week or so about Idaho’s ban of the sale of a particular brand of vodka because of its label. The spirit, made at Ogden’s Own Distillery in Utah, is called Five Wives Vodka, and the Idaho State Liquor Division doesn’t like it. On May 24 (2012) Howard Wasserstein, deputy director of the Liquor Division, explained. After stating the responsibility of the Division toward “the safety and well-being” of the citizens of Idaho, and its protocol for not approving products that are deemed “in poor taste,” Mr. Wasserstein concluded, “We feel Five Wives Vodka concept is offensive to a prominent segment of our population and will not be carried.”
Because Idaho’s population is 27 percent Mormon, the reasonable conclusion most people and news outlets reached is that Idaho’s authorities believe Five Wives is a reference to Mormon polygamy; they want to spare any Mormons who might shop at state-run liquor stores the embarrassment of facing, once again, the religion’s polygamous past. But according to Ogden’s Own Distillery, Five Wives Vodka is not a reference to any of Brigham Young’s 55 wives or a portion of Heber C. Kimball’s 43 wives; it is not a reference to polygamy at all. Distillery partner Steve Conlin explains, “We aren’t even making fun; we are making a nod to the historical past of the American West.” The past he refers to is pre-Mormon era pioneers – the first American emigrants to attempt a wagon crossing from Missouri to California — who passed through Idaho and Utah in 1841. It is believed that the Bartleson–Bidwell wagon train was comprised of 66 men and five women – or five wives.
The Salt Lake Tribune suggests the artwork on the vodka’s label might be the problem. Tim Smith, owner of the micro-distillery says, “We’re not trying to offend anyone. It’s just a cute historical photograph we found on the Internet.” The Tribune’s Keira Dirmyer holds a different opinion. She notes in a June 4 article,
“The vodka label — depicting five turn-of-the-20th-century women dressed in undergarments holding strategically placed kittens — was deemed ‘offensive to a prominent segment of our population,’ according to Howard Wasserstein, deputy director of the Idaho State Liquor Division.
“…the backstory to that photograph goes beyond cute. The photograph depicts the notorious Barrison Sisters, immigrants from Denmark who toured the United States and Europe as hit vaudeville performers between 1890 and 1910.”
ABC News contacted Steve Conlin about the history of the photograph used on the vodka’s label:
“’That’s a new one,’ said Conlin. ‘We had not been aware of the history of the photo. Very interesting. The plot thickens, for sure.’
“He phoned back a few minutes later to add: ‘I’m not sure this changes our position. To us it’s just an image. We love the fact that there was a mystery to where it came from. And so what? They’re cats.’”
The Idaho State Liquor Division did not initially specify what part of the Five Wives Vodka “concept” it deemed “offensive” to “a prominent segment” of the population of the state. In interviews with the media last week, the Liquor Division indicated that the so-called ban was actually instituted because the Idaho market for vodka in a moderate price range was already flooded with other brands, though the official letter to Ogden’s Own Distillery made no mention of that concern.
Then, on June 4 the Christian Post reported,
“An Idaho government official denies that the state banned a vodka drink because it would be considered offensive to Mormons.
“Jeffrey R. Anderson, director of the Idaho State Liquor Division, told The Christian Post that ‘Five Wives’ vodka, a brand considered by some to be insulting to Mormons, was not banned by the state. ‘We did not “ban” the product on behalf of Mormons,’ said Anderson, who added that ‘Mormons had nothing to do with the decision nor were they consulted.’
“’The screening team believed the product was average, the price too high, and the label deemed offensive to primarily women.’”
One might think the Idaho State Liquor Division could have clarified its position a week ago before the misunderstanding regarding Mormon polygamy really took hold in the media. For whatever reason, the Liquor Division chose to let its ambiguity stand while news outlets went wild jumping to conclusions about Idaho’s concern over offending Mormons. But why would Mormons be offended?
Nineteenth-century Mormon polygamy is a fact of life. At one time, Mormons were openly proud of their doctrine and practice of plural marriage. In fact, support for and practice of polygamy was required in order to be a Mormon in good standing. LDS Apostle Orson Pratt taught,
“…I want to say a few words in regard to the revelation on polygamy. God has told us Latter-day Saints that we shall be condemned if we do not enter into that principle; and yet I have heard now and then (I am very glad to say that only a low such instances have come under my notice,) a brother or a sister say, ‘I am a Latter-day Saint, but I do not believe in polygamy.’ Oh, what an absurd expression! what an absurd idea! A person might as well say, ‘I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, but I do not believe in him.’ One is just as consistent as the other. Or a person might as well say, ‘I believe in Mormonism, and in the revelations given through Joseph Smith, but I am not a polygamist, and do not believe in polygamy,’ What an absurdity! If one portion of the doctrines of the Church is true, the whole of them are true. If the doctrine of polygamy, as revealed to the Latter-day Saints, is not true, I would not give a fig for all your other revelations that came through Joseph Smith the Prophet; I would renounce the whole of them, because it is utterly impossible, according to the revelations that are contained in these books, to believe a part of them to be divine—from God—and part of them to be from the devil; that is foolishness in the extreme; it is an absurdity that exists because of the ignorance of some people. I have been astonished at it. I did hope there was more intelligence among the Latter-day Saints, and a greater understanding of principle than to suppose that any one can be a member of this Church in good standing, and yet reject polygamy. The Lord has said, that those who reject this principle reject their salvation, they shall be damned, saith the Lord; those to whom I reveal this law and they do not receive it, shall be damned.” (Orson Pratt, October 7, 1874, Journal of Discourses 17:224)
The Mormon Church discontinued the practice of polygamy (on earth) over 100 years ago, but it was a central (and necessary) doctrine of the Restoration in early Mormonism.
As graphic designer Allison Newhouse explained to me, if the Five Wives label was understood as a reference to polygamy, it would merely be “a wink and a nod to a history that is real and steeped in the culture of that part of the country, like when products are branded with a ‘wild west’ theme.” Not meant to offend, and really, not offensive. In fact, some Mormons might feel honored — or at least amused — except, perhaps, for the fact that vodka itself (alcohol) may offend Latter-day Saints.
—-
UPDATE: Associated Press reports that the Idaho State Liquor Division has reversed its decision on banning Five Wives Vodka from the state.
Besides the Vodka their is some thing called, Polygamy Porter.
In the article it says
My question is, why are Mormons going to a liquor stores? I thought Liquor is a no-no according to the WoW. Well to me this just shows hypocrisy big time, Mormons believing and following what they want to and makes me wonder why they even believe if it is in word only.
I personally want to buy 2 bottles of each, the porter and the vodka. I want one of each just for the novelty of it, one porter to try and one bottle of vodka to make homemade vanilla out of it, so I will have some five wives vanilla.
Considering that booze was produced by Mormons under Brigham Young’s tenure as President
and given how Mormons were not shy at proclaiming the virtues of polygamy at that time ,
interesting why the two were’nt combined and sold in Utah back then . Back in the 1980’s
the Marriott Hotels were one of the Nations largest providers of alcohol .[ Mr Marriott , a
Temple Mormon ]. There was a lot of money to be made from the “Gentiles” . At any rate
all this foolishness could have been avoided if the Mormon hierarchy had’nt added polygamy
and the Word of Wisdom as gospel laws to their alleged “restored gospel ” of Jesus Christ.
Gal.1:8-9 .
I thought the flap over the vodka was both humorous and stupid.
I couldn’t see the connection here with polygamy. Why couldn’t it just be “five” wives not married, so to speak, to one man. It’s stupid in that we live in a world today where it seems that there are people just looking to be offended by something. The “easily offended” could take their place along side the “chronically unhappy”.
Isn’t it ironic that a Mormon shopping for alcohol might be “offended”? The banners of the product don’t quite see the irony I guess.
I appreciated getting to read the quotes above regarding the seriousness with which Mormons held on to polygamy. The Mormonism of today have no idea the central part polygamy played in the “restoration” in the 19th century. These old time Utah Mormons would be members of the FLDS if they were alive today. There was a huge schism between the Utah bunch and those who stayed behind in Illinois after the death of Joseph Smith.
As far as I can tell, the “restoration” has a lot of different interpretations and sects following various “revelations”. On the whole, Mormonism is whatever someone wants it to be.
I thought I would share this with everyone and also ask for prayer.
Today I saw two MM’s walking my neighborhood and ran out and invited them to come talk.
We talked for about 30 minutes and I did not hold back on why I invited them over. I told them they have a false gospel and that their church with holds lots of info. As usual they disagreed, but also admitted they never heard of most of what I told them.
Shortly before they left I asked them, why can they call them selves Christians but I cannot put on an elder badge and go door to door and claim I am LDS? They could not answer me, I told them that in reality it comes down to this, They answer me and say yes your right, we can do that and you cannot, then that makes you dishonest since you know we teach different gospels, and I laid out in clear detail what I believe vs what they believe. Or I can go door to door and their ok with that, but they admitted they were not and still could not give me an answer.
I ended with this, I said to them, You guys told me you are seekers after the truth and want to know the truth, so either you can come back tomorrow and we will go through ALL LDS sources showing you these problems and contradictions and you can tell me no we dont want to. But if you say no we dont want to do that, then that tells me you really dont want to hear the truth and search out these things as you claim you do. Or you can tell me yes we will come back and then (cont)
(cont)
when you leave you can tell each other, no we wont come back. then that means you told me what I wanted to hear, but you really lied to me. Or you can tell me yes you will be back, then leave and tell your stake president what I said and who I am, and I bet he will tell you your not allowed to come back. So what do you want to do.
one MM said we will come back, but on one condition, that we talk about heavenly father only and what He did for us. I was honest and said, Nope, your avoiding the subject off all the problems with Mormonism and we will agree about much on heavenly father, I dont want to talk about things we agree on. This is a matter of teaching and believing in a false gospel and leading people to hell.
So they said, ok, lets only talk about problems you (Rick) Found in the BoM. I said ok we will do that. Problem is, many problems I found in the BoM will need to be hashed out by using other sources and they will be brought up. And I told the LDS that we will or I will only use LDS sources that I own, no other books written my non Mormons or ex Mormons. Supposedly they will be over on Friday 6/8/2012 at 3:00pm to talk, so please pray for us.
They said they want to open and close in prayer, I told them I would pray.
rick,
I should probably come over. I don’t get any MMs around here. I’ll pray for you and also for them. I’d be interested in what they know about Mormonism, especially the history and the ever changing doctrine that morphs into folklore.
Hey guys ex Mormon, here, from 1975 to Sep 11 2011, it was the Delbert Stapley letter to Gov Romney back in 1964 that stopped me in my tracks, first few months was hard, now I feel peace and freedom, I spent less time thinking or talking about that part of my life.
I have had to let it go, I come here now and then, it takes a miracle for someone to leave, there heart to be pierced, no amount of trying to debate will do it.
I to have talked to many of MM, now it’s a waste of my time
Falcon,
we would love to have you over, I think your maybe and 1 hour away. They did admit they dont know very much, one kid said he was only 21 and straight from Utah. Anyone else that is close by, yes even mormons are welcome to come visit me, My house is always open to everyone. I will talk with anyone that comes over.
Rick, my wife and I will be praying for you tomorrow as you minister to those young men.
You cant break those guys they are brain washed from 8 yrs old on, plant seeds in sand maybe, I wave to the MM smile, again why waste my time , i know where they have come from, they are deeply rooted in rationalizing everything.
My former Bishop said ” I will not allow small minded questions to lead me astry” I could go on and on, so I love living here in Florida, could never live in Utah
Already praying for you Rick B, Good on ya for putting yourself out there!
You mentioned the difficulty you forswear; I thought I would try to help a bit. Obviously you will keep your word. But it is fair to ask them if it is ok to use something else. If they still say no, that’s ok. But I don’t think you have to. You can use LDS apologist stuff to confirm issues, preferably on relatively simple stuff that they have conceded not having an answer (on fair I think there is an article about the plagiarism of KJV italicized words and words that are now known to be incorrectly translated in the KJV and thus inexplicably in the BoM, the latter just has a foot note that just says they are working on it still- sorry don’t have the link – my Pc is still down). This may still be too minute or complicated.
Also, of course you have to stick to problems YOU had with the BoM. So….
AUTOTEXT! ARGHHH!!!!!
A list I’m sure you are familiar with but may still help to jog your memory of your issues:
1-show 1830 original and non-grammatical changes (ask them what they learnedly was the translationand accuracy b4 u show this)
2-what’s NOT in the most accurate ( or whatever that quote is) and get-u-closer-to-God-than-any = all the distinctives of the LDS church (from vicarious baptism to church structure and priesthood even)
3-verses contra LDS theology=no chance after death, priestcraft, secret signs and tokens (you can just read that after discussing Jewish temples b4
Argh! This text box gives me enough trouble w/ o this tablet!
There something about how the nephite temple “like” that in Jerusalem actually shows up before the one in Jerusalem isconstructed. Could talk about how few nephites there were to build it so fast compared to the actual temple built by solomon.
Could show how the shoelaces in nephite lands (?) Game says the title page of the BoM wasn’t written by JS but by Moroni (just for fun;).
I would recommend the absurdity of God being afraid of a completely impossible to pull off forgery but you may not be familiar with this multistep but otherwise simple argument about the 116pages w/o needing anything other than the 116 intro BoM. It is based on common sense but has to be developed from forging signatures by themselves to sentences to sentences surrounded by original writing or forging the entire 116 but then u can still compare that to other things written by scribe and so impossible and God doesn’t do things in fear of anything let alone something that is impossible.
Also impossibility of sin stopping definition of repentance. See the youtube video “getting them lost” for appropriate BoM verses.
The way too long trip across the atlantic-like hundreds of days despite driving winds.
Same characters/stories as Bible, NT quotes in BoM-theres one where its an NT writer paraphrasing an OT prophet but BoM has NT paraphrase instead of original but both happened after the BoM event that plaigarizes it.
Again u have to stick to your problems but hopefully this helps. Sorry about all the typos
Thanks for the prayers we both need them, Me to say what God wants said, and for the Mormons not to run screaming from my house. Also the lady in my church who is a former Mormon from Utah said she would come over and also share with them. I will let every one know if they show up and what is said. Thanks again, Rick
Ironman1995, thanks for stopping by . I agree that Mormon Missionaries are very difficult
to minister to but they deserve to hear the true gospel of salvation . I hope that you are not
just an ex-Mormon but an ex-Mormon rescued by Jesus . Thanks again for your input .
rick,
I guess if I was doing this I’d remember that half of returning MMs go inactive. So the probability is that one of these guys is heading out the door and he might not even know it yet.
I don’t know if I’ve ever heard of anyone ever actually leading a Mormon to Christ in the conventional sense. There seems to be a different pattern at work with Mormons. There are those who leave Mormonism after coming to Christ and then there are those who just leave and have no real spiritual or religious commitment. The latter bunch just get tired of the drag of being a Mormon and want a life.
The typical story I’ve heard is that a Mormon has an inkling that something just isn’t right in the program. They begin to study and find all of these “irregularities” in Mormonism. After about an 18 month course of independent study, they bolt.
Now the interesting thing is with husbands and wives. Often times they are studying independently of each other but come to the same conclusion.
I guess if I were doing face-to-face apologetics with Mormons, I’d develop/polish about five to ten questions I could ask them. The questions would provide me with a sense of what they know and what their level of commitment is to Mormonism. It also serves the purpose of hopefully making them a little curious with the possible result of looking for answers themselves.
“A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”
Ironman,
You might be a great guy and it is possible you and me could be great friends if we lived in the same town or something. Other wise, if you going to tell me or others not to waste are times talking to Mormons, then I will tell you, please dont waste my time or talk to me.
I was called by God to share Jesus with the Mormons, It is to long of a story to tell all the details here in a few short posts. But over all these past years while living up in Maine, then moving here to Minnesota, then going to Utah for a visit and share Jesus with the Mormons, I cannot tell you how many so called “Christians” have tried telling me I am wasting my time and these poor mormons are going to hell, and simply will not listen to me.
One time some church members asked me to do street witnessing when I lived in Maine, they said Mormons were out and I could talk with them. Well one Girl from my church went off on the Mormons and told them to leave and never come back. I defended the Mormons, wnet off on my “Sister in Christ” And told her this was a public street down town and she could not tell the Mormons to leave. Much else was said between us.
Then Mormons dont care how much we know, until then know how much we care. This Girl was the daughter of a friend and elder in the Church, the next day I went to her father and told him what happened. He said he heard from her and he sided with me, we cannot simply blow people off. I have a saying I have (Cont)
(cont)
Used for years, It says,
Ironman,
I am also an ex Mormon. I’ve been out for a year and a half. I don’t agree with you. There are MANY good LDS people (even MM) who are where you and I were. They may be afraid to come forward or take the necessary steps to get out because the only people they know are LDS. Blogs like this one helped me in my journey out. I needed someone on the other side of Mormonism to help me see that I was not just an apostate questioning the so called truth of Mormonism. I was LDS for 40 years, born and raised and in Utah even. All of my family (except 2 cousins) are still staunch LDS. I know talking to them is hard and they have that wall up, but it doesn’t stop me from sharing the true and living Christ of the Bible with them. As far as Rick talking to the MM, think about this, falcon has said over and over that 50% of LDS MM either go in active or leave the LDS church after they get home. Could that be because of people like Rick? Showing them the things that they have never heard of in their church? I can’t imagine being out on a mission and hearing for the first time that Joseph Smith translated the BoM by putting a magic rock in his hat. Rick can easily show them this from LDS sources. It really isn’t a waste of time because even the soul of one person is great in the Lord’s eyes and if Rick only shows one soul the way to Jesus, he’s been successful.
I want Mormons to get saved and come to Jesus, But if I talk with them or any other person talks with them and they leave Mormonism and become an atheist or in active that is still better than being a Mormon converting people to Mormonism and then having more Mormons going door to door making more converts, Because then that means more people are being deceived and are going to spend eternity apart from Christ.
The KEY IS NOT TO ACT LIKE THEM.
I served a mission, i was brain washed,served in leadership positions,was taught by Elder Packer in 1977 how bad anti Mormon lit was , even how bad the Tanners were, this was in 1977!
The churches history is what will take one Mormon at a time down, and lift them to Christ, I will say one thing, as ex Mormons, we cant be divided , but have more understand for each other .
Because Rick B your comment Other wise, if you going to tell me or others not to waste are times talking to Mormons, then I will tell you, please dont waste my time or talk to me.
You sound like a Mormon,thats what they said to me.
I seek balance, the Mormon church is hard wired not to have that, no since coming here and being hard wired all over again,I have shared thousands of hours of detailed info to members online about the churches hidden past, there isnt many hear that are as driven as me, try do 8 Ironman races, or do 25 marathons, i have brought that same drive to reaching out and helping the Mormons, but there heart must be pireced, to make that big change, no amount of debate will change there heart, they shut those who leave out, and dont want to listen.
So good luck in helping them, its your time to use as you wish.
Ironman,
I use to do triathlons and all the good stuff but got to the point where I didn’t need any more tee shirts. I still am an avid biker but my competition days ended long ago. I often wonder if they have a Medicare division in these competitions.
I did it all. I hated marathons. Did two just to say I finished one. My first attempt thirty odd years ago taught me how to train and eat. I had to quit at 23 1/2 miles. I could hardly stand up.
Anyway now I just bike and snowshoe depending on the season.
You seem to have the pedigree to work with the Mormon population. I sort of swerved into it because of my interest in Christian doctrine and apologetics. I’ve noticed that a lot of ex-Mormons, even those who come to Christ, really lose interest fast in witnessing to Mormons. I can see why. It’s sort of a burn out.
Jim Spencer has a book out called “Have You Witnessed to a Mormon Lately”. I especially like his classification of the different types of Mormons.
Hello Everyone.
Well the Mormons did show up. But first let me say this, I have been living in Minnesota since 2000, so going on over 12 years here. I had Mormons over my house as often as I could, would meet them at friends houses, went to their church services and would do what I could to talk with them. I said all that so this would make more sense. When the two MM’s arrived at my house, it was one from yesterday and a “new” guy. Well I gotta say, this new guy brought a smile to my face, he said he knows of me and my family and we are a “legend” in the Mormon church. Mormons know who I am, I gotta say, that brought a smile to my face. That tells me I am making some sort of impact and I have some sort of respect among Mormons.
For all the people here who have read my “Bruce Mc Challenge” That I wrote, I was able to go over that with them. I gave them a list of all of the 9 first vision accounts of JS. I showed them from my triple combo where it says, Blacks will become white, but their version says they will become pure. We covered that issue and how their are no foot notes mentioning this change. I shared with them a lot of other problems and how 3 of their prophets cannot agree. Over all they kept throwing the Bible under the bus, every time I showed them a problem in their scripture, they would try and say well here is a problem in the Bible. It was sad and funny at the same time, But I asked them both a question about something Mormonism teaches, (cont)
(Cont)
they could not agree openly on the issue. Then they kept telling me, Christianity has many different denominations and thats a problem, so I mentioned all the different denominations in Mormonism. Over all it went well. One guy was getting mad, so that tells me he was dealing with the inner conflict. My ex-Mormon friend from Church showed up and they talked. Over all it went well, and one guy said he really respected me and liked me a lot, he said he really understands why I’m doing what I am doing and why. His family is mixed, Mom is Mormon, dad is Catholic. So I invited them to come over any time they want, I said we can talk about anything and everything except religion if they want. I told them, even if it has to wait till their Missions trip is over. They have my phone number and the ball is in their court.
rick,
Andy Watson had the experience of the MMs bringing a “back-up” guy with them when they returned to his house. The tag-along was an older gentleman who insisted he had seen Jesus. This guy also angrily denied that Mormons believed in eternal progression. The old dude got so mad he stormed out of Andy’s house about taking the door with him. One of the MMs admitted, on the way out the door that yes, Mormonism did teach the doctrine of men becoming gods.
It’s interesting that Mormons want to prove the BoM by attempting to disprove the Bible. Then they say they believe in the Bible with the caveat, of course, as far as its translated correctly.
With your reputation in the Mormon community, it surprises me that they even show-up any more.
I’m trying to remember what one of our exMormon posters said but it was something like, “I left Mormonism when I just got tired of trying to defend it.” Mormons live in a parallel universe when it comes to their religion. They can think rationally in all other aspects of their lives but when it comes to Mormonism they have to do the Mormon mind bend.
I think the key is to share Jesus with them. The true and living Christ of the Bible. That’s pretty much what I do now. The LDS church has brainwashed it’s people against anything that is said against the church. They use fear. I was scared to even look at anything not church approved in the beginning, I was certain God would strike me dead the instant that I did (That’s not a joke). When I’m having a discussion with a friend or family member, I show them what Jesus said, most of the time Joseph Smith or other LDS leaders have said just the opposite. This really gets them thinking. Rather than argue about certain things in Mormonism such as the word of wisdom and how it came about, I just share Jesus. Falcon is right, we ex Mormons burn out quickly witnessing to Mormons. It’s so frustrating to see the outright lies, deceit, changes, and lies by omission from the LDS church and the person you are talking to can’t or won’t acknowledge it. I’ve had some pretty good discussions with my Mom and the sad thing is, she is not aware of the deeper doctrines and teachings of Mormonism, such as the temple endowment and things that go on in the temple. Most active LDS have never been through the temple and refuse to discuss what goes on in there because it’s just so darn sacred. How does one go about teaching them that all of this comes from Free Masonry right down to the sacred underwear? I told my Mom once that I just don’t believe in needing secret handshakes to get into Heaven and she said ” Of course we don’t need secret handshakes!” She’s clueless.
Falcon, Since living here I have moved twice.
When I was living in my house I was black listed. And what was really funny about that was, I had to MM sit in my house and flat out tell me in no uncertain terms, yes we meet once a month and discuss people like you, and at are meetings we give out your names and address and tell people to avoid people like you.
The first two MM that came over did not plan to, I saw them walking down the street and went out side and invited them over. So when they came over the second time, it was one guy from yesterday and a new guy. They said the guy that did not make it over this time had to be someplace else.
My ex-Mormon friend asked the two of them, did you tell anyone you were coming over and what we were talking about? They both smiled and said, No. I thought that spoke volumes. I even told them, if they went back and told their leaders they were coming over and why, they would not be allowed.
The one guy that came back for a second time, sat their and kept shaking his head, No, no, no.
When you mentioned Andy, one time I had two MM show up with some old guy, I asked who it was? They said this guy was their stake president. I seriously thought I died and went to heaven. I was lucky enough to talk with a “Big wig” Mormon and one of the guys that supposedly knew what he was talking about. It was funny, I stumped him a few times, him and his two partners would huddle and whisper then try and answer me. I loved it.
Kate,
we did cover who was/is Jesus, I mentioned how the Bible says Jesus is God, Not A God.
I showed them How God said He knows of No other gods, none were formed Before Him and none will come after Him. Then I showed them in the pearl of Great price Where God says, I no of no other gods, none came before me and none will be after me. Then it later says in the pearl, God sat in the counsel of the gods and we gods created the heavens and the earth.
The MM admitted that it was a contradiction, But then as soon as they admitted that, they threw the Bible under the bus by saying here is a bunch of problems in the Bible. Over all it went well and they have plenty to think about and they have a standing invite to come over anytime they want and they cane bring anyone they want.
Kate i agree, its not about burnout, I could go toe to toe with and I have with a Stake Pres, a mission Pres, Bishop, you name it, I have read and listened to all that is on this site, as ex Mormons, we need to heal and gain strength by simply being human beings again, not robots.
I love what Joel Osteen said ” If you break your leg in three places , dont go back to those three places”
Or
Kate,
I’ve always figured that the best way to approach Mormons was to talk about Jesus; who He is and what he did (on the cross) and what the implications of His death are.
It’s pretty hard for a Mormon to get upset or be defensive about Jesus. In a larger context, while I know Mormons speak in hushed reverent tones about “heavenly Father”, I think it’s also beneficial to talk about who He is; His attributes as far as He has revealed Himself to us. Compare God with the Mormon man morphed into a god and it’s pretty tough not to pick the former over the latter.
I think about how God drew me to Himself through a series of circumstances and I understand what Paul writes about in the first chapter of the Book of Ephesians. That is, God chose me in Him before the foundation of the world. I understand what that means. If God drew me and if He drew you, he certainly can draw the Mormons to Himself who He puts in our path.
On problem however that to talk to Mormons about choosing us before the foundation of the world, flips them into a mind-set that isn’t Biblical. To Mormons its a take off on their nefarious journey through the pre-existence, and mother-father god and goddesses, and valiant and non-valiant spirits. Total Star Trek sort of stuff.
They believe these things because that’s what they’ve been taught and have never considered that there is but One God, eternal, everlasting, without beginning or end, unchangeable, absolute and sovereign.
BTW. Keep me in your prayers. I’m preaching again at a Lutheran Church tomorrow morning. Second time in a month. It’s kind of a high wire act for me because I never use notes when I preach.
Kate, I know that those of us that have never been Mormons will never know how difficult
it must be to try and witness to your family and LDS friends . I appreciate how you are
focusing on Jesus when sharing with your mother . Mormons talk a lot about Jesus ,
however there is a real defect in what they’ve come to accept from their apostles as what
constitutes an authentic relationship with Jesus , namely , communicating with Him thru
prayer. Mormon leaders have made it clear that prayer is only to be addressed to Heavenly
Father , no one else . I have found that for LDS that means that they look to Jesus as a exemplar
rather than a friend . While it is plain that we are to follow Jesus as our example , a relationship
with Him entails much more than that , it involves an intimate ,personal relationship that
takes place thru communication with Him .We praise Him, thank Him , share our burdens
with Him , and since He is our mediator that means He will then take those concerns , that
praise to the Father . It is only through ( Jn 14:6] a one on one relationship with our personal
Savior/mediator that we gain access[ Eph2:18] to the Father , this all happens through prayer.
This arrangement is the Father’s will for us — Matt.11:27-28; 28:20 . Having a personal
relationship with Jesus is more than merely saying ” in Jesus name ” at the end of our prayers
to the Father etc. For LDS to claim to love Jesus, serve Jesus , but then explain that they
do not , or can not , tell Him so, is really sad
cont .
So Kate you might share this awesome truth about a personal relationship with your mom.
May God give you perseverance in ministering to your family .