People who have died are very important to members of the Mormon Church. The dead are a very important aspect of the Mormon gospel. The sixth President of the Church, Joseph F. Smith, taught,
“We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission. The dead are not perfect without us, neither are we without them [see D&C 128:18]. We have a mission to perform for and in their behalf; we have a certain work to do in order to liberate those who, because of their ignorance and the unfavorable circumstances in which they were placed while here, are unprepared for eternal life; we have to open the door for them, by performing ordinances which they cannot perform for themselves, and which are essential to their release from the ‘prison-house,’ to come forth and live according to God in the spirit, and be judged according to men in the flesh [see D&C 138.-33-34].” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, Joseph F. Smith, 410)
Because the dead are such an integral part of Mormonism, it makes sense that Mormon children would be taught about the Church’s doctrine of baptism for the dead.
In a Mormon Church manual produced for teaching children ages 8 through 11 (Primary 5: Doctrine and Covenants: Church History, 1997), children learn “Joseph Smith Teaches about Baptism for the Dead” (Lesson 34, 193-197. Thanks to Keith Walker for drawing my attention to this lesson).
The lesson teaches children both the historical background on the development of Mormonism’s baptism for the dead as well as the scriptures that Mormons understand to be support for the doctrine. As part of the lesson, the manual offers a few “enrichment activities” designed to enhance the children’s grasp of the importance of baptizing the dead. Two of the offered enrichment activities focus on telling the children what most of us would call ‘ghost stories.’
The first is about two friends, Brigitte and Carla.
Brigitte and Carla met in the third grade in Europe. Carla had just been baptized and wanted everyone to know she was a member of the “only true church.” Some of Carla’s classmates made fun of her for saying this, but Brigitte became her friend.
Brigitte’s family was active in their own church, but they were respectful of other religions. Brigitte even went to Church activities with Carla a few times. Brigitte and Carla remained friends all through their school years. Then, at seventeen years of age, Brigitte died.
Two months later Carla awoke in the night to see Brigitte standing at the foot of her bed. She did not speak, and Carla wondered why she had appeared to her. The following year Brigitte visited Carla again, and she came a third time the next year.
Carla later moved to the United States and was married in the Salt Lake Temple. After Carla had been through the temple, Brigitte appeared to her more often. Then, a week before Carla and her husband were planning to go to the temple again, Brigitte appeared to Carla three nights in a row.
On the third night Carla woke her husband and told him about Brigitte’s visits. They both felt Brigitte had been taught the gospel plan in the spirit world and had accepted it. Now she wanted to be baptized. Carla and her husband prayed and asked the Lord how to obtain the necessary records. They were inspired to contact a researcher and were able to get Brigitte’s death certificate. Carla was now able to send in Brigitte’s name to the temple so her temple work, including baptism, could be done.
A few weeks later Carla again awoke to see Brigitte. This time Brigitte was dressed in a white gown and was standing in a place that looked like a baptismal room. The next morning Carla received a letter from the temple telling her that the baptism for Brigitte had been done. (See Carla Sansom, “From Beyond the Veil,” Ensign, Feb. 1978, pp. 49–50.)
The second enrichment story for the children is about the experience of a temple recorder in the Manti Temple:
Brother J. Hatten Carpenter, who served as a recorder in the Manti Temple, told of a patriarch who was watching baptisms for the dead being performed in the temple one day.
The patriarch saw “the spirits of those for whom they were officiating in the font by proxy. There the spirits stood awaiting their turn, and, as the Recorder called out the name of a person to be baptized for, the patriarch noticed a pleasant smile come over the face of the spirit whose name had been called, and he would leave the group of fellow spirits and pass over to the side of the Recorder. There he would watch his own baptism performed by proxy, and then with a joyful countenance would pass away [to] make room for the next favored personage who was to enjoy the same privilege.”
As time went on, the patriarch noticed that some of the spirits looked very sad. He realized that the people in the temple were finished with baptisms for the day. The unhappy spirits were those whose baptisms would not be performed that day.
“‘I often think of this event,’ says Brother Carpenter, ‘for I so often sit at the font, and call off the names for the ordinances to be performed which means so much to the dead’” (quoted in Joseph Heinerman, Temple Manifestations [Manti, Utah: Mountain Valley Publishers, 1974], pp. 101–2; see also The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine 11 [July 1920]: 119).
Mormons are inspired by these stories. Unlike Christianity, which recognizes a biblical prohibition against contact with the dead (e.g., Deuteronomy 18:9-14), Mormonism embraces it. Joseph Heinerman, whose book is quoted (above) in the Primary 5 manual, states,
“These temple manifestations signify God’s distinct approval of the temple labors performed by His people here upon the earth. Hopefully, these inspiring stories will edify the readers as they have me and motivate them to perform temple work more diligently on behalf of both the living and the dead.” (Temple Manifestations, Preface)
God says communication with the dead is a sin, yet Mormonism teaches little children to welcome necromantic contact, be inspired by it, and interpret it as God’s direction and/or approval of proxy ordinance work for the dead. Does anyone else find this troubling?
“…Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Matthew 18:6)
This is really sick stuff. This would be placed in the category of seductive spirits. Does anyone need any more evidence that Mormonism is an occult based religion? The seductive part, of course, is that these spirit appearances are made to seem acceptable and good. It’s the same thing that goes on in a seance. Mormons are conjuring up the spirits of dead people but what they need to know is that these aren’t the spirits of the dead. What they are is demonic spirits.
Mormons quite literally entertain demons. But it’s so “beautiful” Mormons would tell us. I will remind them that the Word of God says that Satan comes disguised as an “angel of light”.
So Mormons will defend this occult activity by pointed to the transfiguration of Jesus. They have no idea what they’re talking about nor the significance of this occurrence. To take it as an excuse to practice necromancy is foolish and ignorant.
The reason we are warned about how Satan can come as an Angel of Light is because there really are Angels of Light that God sends to help us. You miss classified our having a vision from God as if we were calling on the dead to visit us. God can send an Angel of Light to show us small glimpses of the next life. (Please remember we understand that angels are some Gods Spirit children who have not come to this life, or have already lived here on the earth.)
Divination and Necromancy are sometimes fascinating and always dangerous things to study, let alone practice. It’s something that people should endeaver to stay away from. However, the two stories sited by the LDS primary manual aren’t either of these things, or what’s being discussed in Deuteronomy 18.
Deuteronomy 18: 9-14 (but specifically 11 for this discussion) is talking about those who claim to be able to acquire hidden knowledge outside of God’s chosen channels. Verse 11 is speaking of those that purposefully conjure up the spirits of the dead to gain this information. Here are a few Biblical commentaries explaining this;
“A charmer -i. e., one who fascinates and subdues noxious animals or men, such as the famous serpent-charmers of the East Psalm 58:4-5
A consulter with familiar spirits … a wizard -Compare Leviticus 19:31 note.
Recromancer -literally, “one who interrogates the dead.” The purpose of the text is obviously to group together all the known words belonging to the practices in question. Compare 2 Chronicles 33:6.” (Barnes’ Notes on the Bible)
“A consulter with familiar spirits -בוא לאש shoel ob, a Pythoness, one who inquires by the means of one spirit to get oracular answers from another of a superior order. See on Leviticus 19:31 (note).
A wizard -ינעדי yiddeoni, a wise one, a knowing one. Wizard was formerly considered as the masculine of witch, both practising divination by similar means. See on Exodus 22:13 (note), and Leviticus 19:31 (note).
Or a necromancer -םיתמה לא שרד doresh el hammethim, one who seeks from or inquires of the dead. Such as the witch at Endor, who professed to evoke the dead, in order to get them to disclose the secrets of the spiritual world.” (Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible)
(cont)
The only examples given are of Angels of Light being sent from God to edify someone.
Do you have examples of where LDS leaders are calling on the dead (other than Christ) to bring knowledge about God?
(cont)
“or a necromancer that inquiries of the dead, or seeks instruction from them, as the Targum of Jerusalem. Aben Ezra describes him as one that goes to burying grounds, and takes the bone of a dead man, and because of his wild imagination there appears to him the likeness of forms; or as Maimonides (l), better still, he is one that fasts and sleeps in graveyards, and utters words; and, according to his imagination, sees future things in dreams.” (Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible)
“18:11 A charmer -One that charmeth serpents or other cattle. Or, a fortune -teller, that foretelleth the events of men’s lives by the conjunctions of the stars. Spirits -Whom they call upon by certain words or rites. A wizard -Heb. a knowing man, who by any forbidden way’s undertakes the revelation of secret things. A necromancer -One that calleth up and enquireth of the dead.” (Wesley’s Notes)
All of these can be found here: http://biblecommenter.com/deuteronomy/18-11.ht
In these stories none of the people have purposefully called up spirits. None of the people ask the spirits for secret information. It’s just plain not necromantic or occult.
It’s also good to remember that the verses aren’t saying seeing the spirits of those past is wrong. It’s setting us up for the message of the coming of more prophets like Moses that will lead the people and answer there questions and speak for God. Another good bit of commentary on this can be found in Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible; (cont)
“the Lord thy God hath given thee: his word and statutes, as a rule to go by, which he has not given to other nations: the Targum of Jonathan adds,”the priests shall ask by Urim and Thummim, and a true prophet shall the Lord your God give unto you;”so that they had no need to hearken to such impostors and deceivers: or, “as for thee, not so are they whom the Lord thy God giveth thee” (n); that is, the prophets whom the Lord would give unto them would not be like the diviners of the Heathens, who imposed on the people and deceived them; but would be men sent and inspired by God, and true and faithful in the discharge of their office; and to hearken to these they are encouraged by the promise of a very eminent one, like to Moses, in the next verse.”
So, as long as a person isn’t trying to gain knowledge outside of God’s will or his approved channels these verses don’t condemn the seeing of spirits.
@ Parkman; I’m sure that you just misspoke, but Mormons don’t think Christ is dead 😉
Lds leaders have spoken to and learned from the dead (John the baptist, Peter, James, John and Moroni all come to mind) but ther where always sent by God, not conjured. As sent messengers of God they were through one of his proper channels, and not divination.
TJ,
Thank you for your input. You pretty much described Joseph Smith; he of the magic rock and second sight vision.
parkman,
Back to basics. Could you please describe the Mormon god and the Mormon Jesus. In that description you will have the information that you need regarding what spirits Mormons are tapping into and calling on for guidance and information.
I take it you are a Mormon and as such are wearing the undergarment required of you by your religion. Are there any symbols on your garment? Have you taken a look at some of the Mormon temples? Have you noticed the symbols on them. Lastly in the BoA Joseph Smith gives us a glimpse of the Mormon god. He is the Egyptian fertility god. He is sitting on a throne exposing himself.
Here’s a little glimpse of what is on a Mormon temple.
http://mormonoutreach.org/pagan_and_occult_symbols.php
@ TJayT Jesus died and was the first to be resurrected. Some of the Angels of Light sent by God to teach us were also resurrected.
@ falcon Please stay with the basics, you seem to be implying that there are LDS Church leaders calling on other than God in Heaven, through His first-born Son Jesus the Christ, for guidance. Please give your examples.
I’m watching this National Geographic Channel series called the “Outliers”. One of the groups they present are a band of Gypsies that live in New York City. These Gypsies pray in Jesus name and they run psychic healing shops. They do palm readings and use Tarot cards to tell peoples’ fortunes and futures. How can this be wrong since they use Jesus name and even claim to sweep evil spirits out of their shops?
I mean really, if people are devout and sincere and have good intentions and use the name of Jesus, it all has to be of God right?
Here’s where Mormons get fooled and deceived. It’s their piety and sincerity and thinking that they are in contact with “God” which makes them think that everything is of God.
I have a book here that I reference often when we get on this topic. It’s called “Temple Manifestations” and is written by a Mormon. It’s a textbook of what not to do and/or believe but that wasn’t the authors intentions in writing it. It’s really occult 101.
So here’s a little tid bit. President Woodruff wrote: “I consecrated upon the altar the Seer Stone that Joseph Smith found by revelation some thirty feet under the earth and carried by him through his life.” This is the very Seer Stone that the Prophet Joseph Smith used part of the time when translating the BoM; the one he took from the well he was digging with his brother Hyrum, near Palmyra for Mr. Clark Chase,…..”
This was the dedication of the Temple at Manti in May, 1888.
Don’t try to make excuses for what the basis for Mormonism is. It’s the occult disguising itself as nominal Christianity on the outside. The temple is a hot bed of occult rituals drawn from Free Masonry.
Falcon
He’s right there with Moses, he of the magic staff, divining breast plate and visions of God.
@ falcon You have said a lot, but you have yet to show examples to back up the miss guided claim that having God send Angels of Light to visit and teach us is proof that LDS Church leaders are conjuring up people who have died.
TJ,
I think you better look into your claim a little more concerning Moses. Where you should start is with the God whom Moses served. The God whom Moses served is not the god of Mormonism. The god of Mormonism is an occult god. One thing we know is that Satan’s main strategies is to counterfeit something of God in an attempt to deceive people.
Just so Mormons who are lurking here understanding the significance of Joseph Smith’s magic rock. Smith was a practitioner of folk magic. The “magic” rock or seer stone that he found while digging the well was used by him to claim he could see buried treasure in the ground. He had a band of homies that use to wander the countryside at night on treasure hunting quests with the magic rock. In fact Smith was hauled into court and charged with his flim flam operation. This is the same magic rock he put into his hat and shoving his face (into the hat) he claimed to be able to translate some golden plates which, interestingly enough, were not present during the process.
So this practitioner of magic’s rock was placed on the altar of the temple at Manti during the days of the dedication.
OK parkman, how about this. If I can produce examples of how occult practices draw demonic spirits will you leave Mormonism or will you simply make more excuses for why these demons are really angels of light?
When Jesus encountered the demonic, the Bible says that the demonic begged Jesus not to send the demons out of the country. Why was that? It’s the same reason you’ve embraced these demon spirits claiming they’re really just angels of light.
Who is your God parkman? Who is your Jesus? Finally, who is your prophet?
parkman,
Here’s a good one for you from the “Temple Manifestations” book.
“There were other spiritual incidents which were manifested in the St. George Temple when the spirits in prison sought for the performances of their temple ordinances. Perhaps the best known of these instances is the coming of signers of the Declaration of Independence to President Wilford Woodruff in the St. George Temple in early March, 1877. Six months later he described the coming of these beings to him in an address delivered in the tabernacle:
…..The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George. They called upon us, knowing that we held the keys and power to redeem them. ….those men who laid the foundation of this American Government and signed the Declaration of Independence were the best spirits the God of Heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits, not wicked men. General Washington and all the men that labored for the purpose were inspired of the Lord. …….every one of these men that signed the Declaration of Independence with General Washington called upon me, as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the house of God for them.
Now parkman, if you can’t see through this for what it is I’d say you are under an unusually strong spirit of deception. You’re sold out to the demonic and you aren’t going to give it up easy. You need to repent of this and seek the face of the Living God that He might deliver you from the oppression you are under.
@ falcon You are asking me if I would be willing to let you change my question to something you want to talk about, then you add lots of new information about unrelated and almost related items. However, I must thank you for bringing up more examples where Angels of Light were sent by God to enlighten us.
Since you say you understand God differently than we do, I will make this one change to my question.
The original title of this is, “Mormonism and Visitations from the Dead” and it has been implied that we as a people conjure up dead people for our heavenly guidance. Using OUR understanding of God and His Son Jesus, do you have proof that LDS Church leaders call upon dead people instead of talking to God for that heavenly guidance.
parkman,
You’re doing a great job of attempting to reframe what is being said here. Let’s just take it apart. You wrote “do you have proof that LDS Church leaders call upon dead people instead of talking to God for that heavenly guidance.” So the operational words that you want to address are “heavenly guidance”.
What I’m saying is that Mormons, going back to the beginning of the religion, were involved in necromancy or the conjuring of spirits. Now whether or not they are asking these spirits for “heavenly guidance” is not the point, even if that’s what you want to make it.
But staying with your point of “heavenly guidance”. Every time you, your leadership or other Mormons pray to the Mormon “heavenly father”, you are praying to the spirit that guides Mormonism. That spirit isn’t the God that is revealed in the Bible.
The Mormon “heavenly father” is a former man who became a god just like millions or billions of gods before him. Now supposedly he got his full deity on by going to a temple on some planet where he was a man and partook in rituals that not so coincidentally, Joseph Smith lifted from Free Masonry.
So yes, every time the Mormon heavenly father is prayed to for guidance it’s another god or spirit.
In Second Corinthians 11:3-4 the apostle Paul writes a warning that can be applied to Mormons and Mormonism. He writes,
“But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel………….
Falcon
Then you concede that God’s prophets have used implements to work out the will of God, and that them doing so wasn’t sorcery or occult ritual. So there’s no reason a modern prophet of God couldn’t do the same.
Just so people who are lurking here understand the significance of God’s prophets in the Bible using implements to work out his will. Aaron used his staff to eat the staves of the Egyptian priests, as well as later using it as a sign of his bloodlines right to the priesthood. Moses used his staff to begin almost every Egyptian plague, as well a bring water out of rock and part the Reed Sea, just to name a few. He also made a brass serpent to heal people, and made the urim and thummim (a divination tool used by the High Priest). The list goes on and on. According to Falcon the difference is that he believes Moses was a prophet (and so God worked through his implements) and tjay J.S. wasn’t (and so it was ungodly). Which is fine, we all chose what we do and don’t believe. But for those of us that do believe J.S. was a prophet of God the use of divine tools isn’t an automatic disqualified for him to have been a prophet of God.
It’s also worth the lurkers noting that Falcon can’t find an instance of Mormon’s leaders conjuring up the dead to learn secret knowledge (which is what Deuteronomy 18:11 is speaking of). The best he can come up with are instances of God sending spirits to tell people God’s will. And that’s all he’ll find, because Mormons aren’t occultists. I could stoop to accusing him of being under a demonic or ungodly spirit, but honestly I just believe he’s an imperfect human.
I don’t know to what extent some LDS may be speaking to the dead , but I have
always felt that angels have played much too prominent a role in the birth of
Mormonism and also in how many Mormons seem to be to nonchalant ( in my view)
in receiving important information from them or perhaps dead relatives ? . Are there
angels ? Yes, but in the life of the Body of Christ , the church that Jesus established
and in the gospel preaching by those who He appointed to teach the gospel of salvation
I don’t see a lot of teaching about receiving new truths from angels , truths which play
an important place in our relationship with God and especially how to receive eternal
life —the gospel. I do notice that Jesus’ apostles were adamant about warning their
flock about being seduced by heavenly beings /angels –1 Tim. 4:1 ; Gal.1:8 ; since they
can portray themselves as good beings with info allegedly from God , some of which
could be accurate , but that’s part why they are “seducing” messengers . Given how
Joseph Smith referenced so many angels of light in establishing his new religion, and
since he came up with some doctrines that are so aberrant , I have think he may
just have been misled, seduced, by Heavenly messengers that were not sent by God.
It’s easy for anyone to be misdirected by their own feelings , reasonings, or by
an angel of light to teach false doctrine — and that sums up Mormon leaders well.
Today we have the scriptures promoting the truths about God and salvation, this is
our safety from being seduced by false teachers—whether alive or dead: Gal1:8
Parkman said
Seeing as how you said this, can you back it up from the Bible? If not, then why did you say it?
Parkman said
Again, back this up from scripture.
@ Mike R The New Testament Prophets taught us to watch out for false teachers, false prophets, and false christs. Nowhere does it say that there would be no more Prophets and teachers, and that Christ would not lead His church.
The big difference is that you believe I am following false teachers and I believe you are the one who is following false teachers. As Joseph Smith said, there are too many people who have different ideas as to what the Bible really says that it is hard for us to determine which Christian faith is truly following God.
Yet there is one thing I do know; it is wrong to imply that LDS leaders conjure up the dead to get guidance.
Parkman said
We as Christians do believe in teachers, The Bible tells us, some are called to be pastors and teachers.
So you are wrong on that issue, or you mis-understood what was said. As to prophets, people do prophecy, yet we no longer need prophets, we have Jesus. The Bible tells us, in these last days, God has spoken to us through His Son.
So you can listen and follow your LDS prophets, but their track record is false prophecy after false prophecy. I will follow and listen to Jesus.
Great article and work as always, Sharon. Our Mormon visitors love this kind of subject because of it’s mystical draw. They have disdain for the majority of God’s Word, the Bible, so they give lip service and mutilate texts where the real God speaks against occultic activity that Mormons participate in their temples of paganism.
I’d like to share my favorite LDS ghost story/sighting with TJay and Parkman since this subject fascinates them. Here it is:
“In May 1978, before this revelation was announced to the Church, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles met in the Salt Lake Temple. At the conclusion of the meeting, Elder LeGrand Richards (1886-1983) asked if he might say a few words. He told the Brethren that during the meeting he had seen a personage sitting in an armchair above the organ. He said the personage was President Wilford Woodruff (1807-1898) and suggested that perhaps he had seen President Woodruff because he was the only one who would recognize him. Elder Richards, who was six years old when he saw President Woodruff dedicate the Salt Lake Temple, was the only one in the room who had seen him alive. Isn’t it interesting that this former prophet, who himself had announced a significant revelation related to Church policy, appeared as a witness of the truth and importance of this new revelation about to be announced?” (Ensign, October 2009, p. 10)
Of course he is near the organ! The only thing that would have been better is if he was playing macabre music on it too!
All joking aside, none of this foolishness has one shred of biblical support. Souls of the deceased go immediately into the presence of God or to hell. Mormons can read about it in their own book: Alma 40:12-13.
Parkman, you’re absolutely correct in that the N.T. warns us to beware of false
prophets/teachers /christ’s. The N.T. does indeed talk about prophets and teachers
in the church and that Jesus would direct His church, but the N.T. clearly does not
teach some very significant aspects of what we see in Mormonism. One example is
that of one man at the top type arrangement , one prophet , the king who rules over
God’s earthly kingdom (under Christ who rules the universe ). This is not the picture
we encounter in the N.T. That’s one example. You mentioned that many people have
their own view as to what the Bible says etc. While that’s unfortunate it is not surprising
given how people may approach the Bible . The Bible is still the standard and we are all
still accountable to make sure we rightly divide it . Mormon leaders have’nt proven
that they are the answer to this , and in fact given their lofty claim of receiving ongoing
personal guidance from Jesus to teach His ” gospel truths ” , when everyone else is
said to be devoid of this guidance , would make them even less worthy to trust.
Lastly, I’m not saying that LDS leaders are ” conjuring up the dead” , I personally don’t
enough info on that particular activity, what I stated is that given the possibility of
anyone being misled into receiving false doctrines by listening to angels or heavenly
messengers who can appear unto them , that includes Mormon leaders especially
given some of what they’ve introduced as gospel truth ever since their alleged
appointment in 1830. Gal1:8
Oh brother TJ.
Is this your big gotcha moment?
“Then you concede that God’s prophets have used implements to work out the will of God, and that them doing so wasn’t sorcery or occult ritual. So there’s no reason a modern prophet of God couldn’t do the same.”
You make my point. There is real and there is counterfeit. To make a good counterfeit you have to have some element of the real. Go back and read the Biblical account of Moses dueling with the magicians in Pharaoh’s court.
Your problem, and the problem with Mormons, is that you haven’t handled the real, you’ve only handled the counterfeit. You don’t know what the real is. Mormons have no discernment what-so-ever. They jump on anything that has a wiff of the spiritual and declare it of God.
Joseph Smith’s instructions “The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead” History of the Church, 6:312–13). So Mormons believe it’s ok for people (children?) to see the dead and for God to send the dead as angles of light. So these are heaven-sent angels? These are demons.
And finally:
“President Young fasted and prayed frequently for guidance. Thereafter he experienced “a vision of Joseph Smith, who showed him the mountain that we now call Ensign Peak, immediately north of Salt Lake City, and there was an ensign fell upon that peak, and Joseph said ‘Build under the point where the colors fall and you will prosper and have peace.’” President Young knew he was to settle in the Salt Lake Valley.”
Ensign, 2/1998, 56 “Brigham Young, Student of the Prophet” (Note: Young sought guidance; Smith answered; Young obeyed)
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/02/brigham-young-student-of-the-prophet?lang=eng
Your religion is built on the occult. The tag line “it’s the same as in the Bible” is a typical ploy.
So TJ and parkman,
There’s your example. Are you ready to give-it-up?
Of course not. I could give you a warehouse full of examples and there will always be a “yes but”. That’s Mormonism.
The evidence is clear and plain but your conscience is seared as the Bible says.
It’s interesting to note that the testimonies of people who are former Mormons most often contains statements of “why couldn’t I see it?”.
The reasons are both emotional and spiritual.
Spouses say the same thing when it becomes obvious that their partner is a cheater. It’s a forest and trees thing.
The bottom line is that you don’t know God. You’ve accepted a false God, a false church, a false prophet, false scripture and finally a false Jesus.
The problem here, as I see it is that Mormons call every visitation, a visit from “an angel of light”. In most of these cases, do the recipients do the Joseph Smith test? (the handshake). Since Satan can appear as an angel of light (biblical – so we can trust that), how did Legrand Richards know that he saw Wilford Woodruff? Maybe it’s just me, but that would be a perfect way to deceive someone, appearing as a dead prophet to bolster the faith of someone to believe in Mormonism.
Now, as for conjuring the dead to get guidance, that is what Jo Smith did for a living before he claimed to be a prophet. One “apostle” and “prophet” was fixated on the dead, and that was Wilford Woodruff, who said,
“The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George (Journal of Discourses 19:229). Woodruff is referring to the St. George temple in southern Utah. He also stated, “I will here say that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, “You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God. These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.160).
“Knowledge that is needful concerning the spiritual sphere will come through an appointed channel and in the appointed place. The temple where the ordinances can be administered for the dead, is the place to hear from the dead. The Priesthood in the flesh, when it is necessary, will receive communications from the priesthood behind the veil.” ~Charles W. Penrose, Mormon Doctrine, 1888, published through the Juvenile Instructor’s office, SLC, pp. 40-41
If you want to read all about hundreds and hundreds of Mormons talking to the dead, this book “Life Everlasting” by Duane S. Crowther, has documented them.
“Now it is evident that the people of all nations in the last days would be utterly unable to learn the ways of the Lord to perfection, in any other place except in a holy Temple erected among the mountains. For if the oracles, and most holy ordinances, and the keys or the mysteries, could be had elsewhere, or in any and every place, the people would never take the pains to resort to one house amid the mountains in order to learn of His ways, and to walk in His paths.
It is, then, a matter of certainty, according to the things revealed to the ancient Prophets, and renewed unto us, that all the animal magnetic phenomena, all the trances and visions of clairvoyant states, all the phenomena of spiritual knockings, writing mediums, &c., are from impure, unlawful, and unholy sources; and that those holy and chosen vessels which hold the keys of Priesthood in this world, in the spirit world, or in the world of resurrected beings, stand as far aloof from all these improper channels, or unholy mediums, of spiritual communication, as the heavens are higher than the earth, or as the mysteries of the third heaven, which are unlawful to utter, differ from the jargon of sectarian ignorance and folly, or the divinations of foul spirits, abandoned wizards, magic-mongers, jugglers, and fortunetellers.
Ye Latter-day Saints! Ye thousands of the hosts of Israel! Ye are assembled here today, and have laid these Corner Stones, for the express purpose that the living might hear from the dead, and that we may prepare a holy sanctuary, where “the people may seek unto their God, for the living to hear from the dead,” and that heaven and earth, and the world of spirits may commune together—that the kings, nobles, presidents, rulers, judges, priests, counselors, and senators, which compose the general assembly of the Church of the Firstborn in all these different spheres of temporal and spiritual existence, may sit in grand Council, and hold a Congress or court on the earth, to concert measures for the overthrow of the “mystery of iniquity,” the thrones of tyrants, the sanctuaries of priestcraft and superstition, and the reign of ignorance, sin, and death.” ~ Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2 page 46
Basically if you have the “priesthood” you can talk to dead people and believe what they say.
@falcon and the rest of you
All your examples are of God sending a messenger for us to learn from. Your own words prove how your implied idea about how Mormons conjure up the dead for guidance is just plainly untrue.
Parkman,
You have not answered my questions. And for the record, they really were not questions, I was asking you to back up what you said from the Bible. I see you have not and I will state for the record, you wont. You might babble on about something, but cannot back up what you said from the Bible because it simply is not in the Bible.
Andy said;
“Our Mormon visitors love this kind of subject because of it’s mystical draw. They have disdain for the majority of God’s Word, the Bible, so they give lip service and mutilate texts where the real God speaks against occultic activity that Mormons participate in their temples of paganism.”
Not sure who you’re referring to, but if you feel I’ve misrepresented Biblical text in my responses to this article can you please show me where I’m wrong?
“Of course he is near the organ! The only thing that would have been better is if he was playing macabre music on it too!”
http://www.myinstants.com/instant/rimshot/
You’re welcome 🙂
“Souls of the deceased go immediately Into the presence of God or to hell.”
The dead going to paradise or darkness isn’t relevant to this conversation, since Mormons believe God can use the spirits of the dead as his messengers (angels).
Falcon
I don’t need ri have a “big gotcha moment”. I just need to show the readers that your arguments aren’t as unparalleled and final as you like to present them. Then I’ll let them make there own decisions.
As you said, we both agree there is real and counterfeit (and, it would seem, that the use of a seer stone doesn’t make a prophet false). Yes, Mormons believe God can send the spirits of the dead as his messengers (angels). You can say you believe they are really demons till the end of time, but there’s no biblical proof that God couldn’t or wouldn’t use those that have died as angels if and when it serves his will. To your note about Brigham seeing Joseph I would just add; Young sought guidance OF GOD, Smith answered WITH GOD’S WILL, Young obeyed GOD. Just as anyone that hears a messenger from God should.
The underlying problem with much of what you say Falcon (at least from my pov) is that you sound like any one of a multitude of militant unbelievers trying to poke holes in Christianity. It’s great for boundary control but awful for trying to convince others. “I can give you a warehouse full of examples that PROVE you’re wrong!” they say. Then they list the same tired old arguments we’ve all heard before. “But there are answers to your concerns.” you may say. “Well those answers that are good enough for you aren’t good enough for me, and since you don’t see the obvious truth I and others like me have you must just be stuborn or delusional or ignorant.” And then any hope of an honest civil discution ends, and we just yell past one another. Believe whatever you want Falcon, I can’t stop you, though I do pray God will soften your heart as he did mine. But in the end (at least to me) you are full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Grindael,
Honestly I see the problem as Mormons believing God can and does use the spirits of the dead as angels and the Non-Mormons here don’t. That seems to be the crux of most of the disagreements. Again, every inference that you bring up is of the dead being used as messengers (angels) of God. The abominations spoken of in Deuteronomy 18 berate people that try and force spirits to give them knowledge without God’s consent. That isn’t what has gone on in any of the examples listed by anyone so far.
The greatest biblical example of what is being talked in Deuteronomy 18:11 is the story of King Saul and the Witch of Endor. When Saul couldn’t get the answers he was seeking through God’s appointed channels (specifically mentioned is dreams, divine lots and prophets) he went to a witch to try and force the spirit of Samuel to answer. There’s debate about whether Samuel actually showed up or not (though imo the text seems to support that it was really him sent by God) the point is God wouldn’t answer him so he tried to go around Him. And he was slapped down for it. Nothing Mormons do in the temple is like what Saul or the Witch were doing. The visions of spirits in the temples aren’t necromantic according to the Bible.
@Rick B
The Bible says to watch out for false messengers and then names some of them. Since we are not told that there will not be messengers, there must be true messengers. It also speaks about being careful about false teachers and false prophets. Since we are not told that there will never be true teachers and true Prophets, the Bible is telling us that there will be true teachers and true Prophets. I would say you are following false teachers when you say we can all be our own prophet because you only have to follow Jesus for all of you to get the correct teachings.
You can look in the New Testament to see many examples of Angels being light and knowledge to the followers of Christ. Remember who was at the tomb after Jesus left it. Does that answer your question.
@ Mike R @ falcon
Some have argued that Joseph Smith might have been deceived by Satan or been misled by his imagination but these objections fail an objective analysis using the scriptures as our standard of truth. The teachings of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the LDS Church affirm that Jesus is the Christ and that he “came in the flesh” as prophesied and affirmed in scripture. For Satan to inspire these latter-day truths goes counter to Christ’s own teachings (Matthew 12:25–26; also Matthew 9:33–34; Mark 3:22–30; Luke 11:14–26; Jesus the Christ, pp. 265–266). http://en.fairmormon.org/Moroni's_visit/Angel_of_Satan
Parkman, Yes Joseph Smith , and especially those he mentored and carried on in
leadership after his death were indeed deceived by Satan ( deceived , not possessed),
anyone can be . What is clear is that Mormon leaders have indeed succumbed to
teaching for doctrine the commandments of men , thus misleading their followers.
You seem to not understand the “prophets” mentioned in the N.T. vrs ” the Prophet”
arrangement of your church . Mormonism is not the original church of Jesus restored
in these last (latter) days . You also seem to not understand how Satan could have not
mislead your leaders ( and anyone ) simply because of the fact that they believe the
truth that Jesus , ” came in the flesh ” . But Satan is the master seducer , he can and will
agree with Biblical truth if that gets his foot in the door etc , after all , don’t even devils
believe there is one God , is’nt that a truth ? Therefore the scriptures you cited
in the gospels don’t prove your point . There are even other Mormon groups
that would believe in this particular scriptural truth about Jesus yet these Mormons
are called apostate and teachers of false doctrines serious enough to leave them out
of eternal life with God . Paul talks about those who would succumb to believing
false teachings about Jesus serious enough that will render ” their Jesus” a imitation
as it were of the real true Jesus Christ –2Cor 11:4. This sad scenario can also
happen in the lives of people(LDS) who have fallen for a imitation gospel of salvation.
It’s ” a gospel ” but not the authentic one –Gal. 1:8 .
Parkman said
If your going to quote me, get it right, this is why your wrong in being LDS. I never said I am my own prophet, I said I follow Jesus, and we as people can prophesy.
This is what the dictionary says
This is different than being a prophet. Also God used prophets in the OT, But no longer do we need or follow prophets, as I said, the Bible says, we just need Jesus, and He spoke to us, and still speaks to us, through His word.
Parkman said
This is dumb logic, The Bible does not say the sky is Pink, so it must be Pink then. You cannot back it up from the Bible, so then dont add to scripture, if it is not their, then we need not worry about it.
Parkman said
This does not answer my question. First off, all these angels did was say, Jesus is risen, He is not here. How is this being true vs false angel?
Then, You seem to believe, at least this is how I understand you
Cont,
That when we die, we then become angles. This is not true, Humans will never be angels, The Bible even tells us we will judge angels some day, so if thats true, then do we judge ourselves?
The Bible tells us, we die once, then judgment, we dont come back and speak to people about things going on in heaven. So give me some other examples. Paul in Gal even said, if an angel gives a different gospel then the one Paul is speaking, teaching, we are not to believe the angel and they will be accursed.
The Mormon gospel was given by an angel, and is different than what Paul taught and believed.
You cannot support the mormon gospel from the Bible, or any of the four standered works. I know because I have read them all, and you guys need and use, ongoing revelation from prophets to back up your views, So try again parkman, give me these other examples. Remember, you said it, so back it up.
Parkman, I hope you’re not trying( inadvertently ?) to try and shift the spotlight
from looking closely at how many Mormons think listening to the dead or welcoming
them appearing in your room at night ( like in the story of Carla above) is a
wholesome experience . You seem to be saying that we all are saying that Mormon
leaders are ” conjuring” up the dead to get guidance from them . I notice that
Sharon’s thread is titled, ” Mormonism and visitations from the Dead” .
It seems that’s what the issue is here , namely that for many Mormons, leaders
included, that the dead appear to them and they (LDS) listen to them without
seemingly seeing the danger in this activity . What are “familiar spirits” ? Should we
just believe a Mormon apostle who testifies that they recognize dead Presidents or
dead prophets ? Spirits appearing before people in Mormon temples signifies that
Mormon temple work is approved by God ? Really ? Are you attempting to prove
that these experiences with dead relatives and such are ok because after all the N.T.
records the activity of angels ? I’ve come to realize that for most Mormons the truth
or falseness of a belief /doctrine is not so much of what the scriptures teach, but rather
it’s what their leaders teach . After all , the scriptures are all by dead prophets/apostles,
but today there is a “living prophet” . I think that speaking to,listening to,or even
encouraging experiences with the dead is a very risky venture for anyone
especially those who want to follow Jesus in His church , it’s dangerous -2Thess 2:2
1Jn4:1
These Mormons sure do love their spooks don’t they? They will do anything to accommodate them and defend their welcoming of these demonic entities masquerading as some poor dead souls that just want temple work done for them.
Mike is right.
You’re trying to turn this into a divination or fortune telling scheme when in reality there are a lot of different demons that travel about the spirit world. It goes without saying that there are “familiar spirits” as highlighted in the Book of Acts who do allow those they possess to tell fortunes/futures.
I don’t know, should I do a primer on demonic spirits for you guys?
Here’s the bottom line and all that needs to be known. That is that Mormons have a different gospel, with a different god, driven by a different spirit. In Mormonism even Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers. There’s no deep spiritual truth here. It’s just plain blasphemy.
I don’t know what responsibility Mormons have for being duped into this occult religion but I do know that without faith in the Biblical Jesus, people are lost.
The evidence that Joseph Smith was up to his eye balls in the occult is well documented.
TJayT said,
Again, every inference that you bring up is of the dead being used as messengers (angels) of God.
Exactly. The good and the bad. The problem is, why didn’t Mormons use the Smith test? Like I said, EVERY visitation of an otherworldly being to a Mormon is an angel. And I did show that Mormons use the dead to communicate to them. It is preached by Mormon “authorities”.
@Rick B
You speak of “dumb logic” and then you say that everyone can prophesize, but they are not prophets. I agree that you would not qualify for the position that we refer to as “The Prophet”, yet you still claim that you receive revelation from Jesus Christ, which is the main job of any Prophet.
If you really think your example of a pink sky is valid, I understand why you cannot understand that the Bible teaches us that there will be true teachers, true messengers, and true Prophets today. The angels at the tomb gave the message that was needed for the people at that location at that time. This does not mean that angels cannot carry a message relating to the needs of us today. They are both true if they came from God.
I do not understand how you have trouble believing that we, as angels, will be judged by ourselves; since you believe that God, in your version of Him also being Jesus, can inherit all that He has from Himself.
Another thing, you say you do not believe the Bible when it teaches that many of those who had died were resurrected and how they walked among the people and taught of Jesus.
@falcon
Yes, we follow a different Christ than any of the traditional Christs that are being taught by you. If you were not following false teachers, teachers who have messed up God’s teachings, God would not have needed to call His Prophets to correct the incorrect teachings.
@ Mike R
As you say, the original thread was titled,” Mormonism and visitations from the Dead”. In addition, there were examples of how God send messengers with teachings to help us grow and become joint hairs with Christ. With no example of an LDS Church leader calling on anyone other than God, it was implied that we conjure up the spirits of the dead for edification and I corrected the implication by pointing out that we ask of God and He decides how to give His answer. That correction seems to have gotten lost in a tsunami of unrelated questions and statements.
Parkman said
Again, you said it so support it from scripture. You still have not done that with the other things you said, so I dont have much hope you will do it here.
Parkman said
So this tells me I was right, you believe we as humans die and then become angles, again this is not supported from scripture, so please back it up if you think it is their.
Parkman said
I never said this, I think you again misunderstood something I said. You seem to say I said things I never said.
The Bible teaches that after Jesus rose from the dead, the graves were open and the people came out. I believe that.
Parkman said
I guess you dont know how prophets in the Bible worked. Go back and read scripture.
At first God spoke to us face to face, Adam and Eve for example. Then later God appointed prophets to speak on His behalf. But the Bible tells us, that if someone spoke and said it was from God and they got it wrong, then it was not really from God and that prophet must be stoned to death.
Then the need for prophets came to an end with Jesus. Now we dont need prophets, we just listen to Jesus. (Cont)
(Cont)
The Bible tells us, that we have one mediator between man and God, the Man Christ Jesus. So I no longer need to go to a priest, a prophet, a person who claims to speak for God. I just need to read the Bible and pray to God.
Then as far as LDS prophets go, JS got all His prophecy’s wrong, so since he got them all wrong, he cannot be trusted and is a false prophet. Now even though we dont need prophets, we as believers can still prophesize. I dont know why this is so hard for you to understand. Then you cannot and have not been able to support anything you claim to believe from the Bible.
TJayT wrote,
Again, every inference that you bring up is of the dead being used as messengers (angels) of God.
Really? Read the Woodruff account again. Where is God mentioned? Woodruff actually says that the spirits of the founding fathers appeared to him to ask him something, not that they were sent with a message. Why wouldn’t God just have sent an angel with a message to Woodruff to do their work? Of course, I don’t believe a word of it, it was all for dramatic effect. I’ve read all of Woodruff’s Journals, and he gave many false prophecies, and was completely wrong about many, many things. He also was a liar and a hypocrite. He was arrogant (on one occasion some members were referred to him for a blessing, and he told them he wouldn’t bless them with healing, they had to find some elders to do it.) John Taylor was just as bad, claiming that since he was an apostle and his father was only a high priest, he wouldn’t be sealed to him, he wanted to be sealed to someone like Joseph Smith who was more important. These men were not prophets, not by any stretch. Also, Where is God mentioned in the Legrand Richards story? What “message” did God have for Richards?
Parkman, sorry but you’re not convincing . Mormonism promotes a religious lifestyle that
is way to comfy with supposedly dead relatives, friends , and others , appearing /speaking
in temples or in bedrooms . That’s only asking for trouble . Beware .
TJayT, thanks for an excellent point:
“The purpose of the text is obviously to group together all the known words belonging to the practices in question. Compare 2 Chronicles 33:6.” (Barnes’ Notes on the Bible)
1. Correct. Wizardry, familiar spiritism, fire-incantation (witchcraft), divination and necromancy is condemned(Lev. 19:31, Ps. 58:4-5, 2 Chr. 33:6).
2. Familar spirits: Humans cannot meet the real dead (for any reason) while on earth. The Bible neither mentions precedent, example or directive where anyone can meet with a departed human. Let’s look at familiar spirits (וְיִדְּעוֹנִ֑י) – which means a conjurer. Effective translation means one who can bring the dead back through familiar(trick) spirits. In other words, no one can. It takes a (literally conjurer/impersonator)familiar spirit. (2 Chr. 28:7)”Then said Saul … Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit” [one who conjures (make something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere:Oxford dictionary)].
The next trick tells all. “… for what have you seen?” And the woman said to Saul, “I have seen angels(Chabad) ascending from the earth.” v.13. In this illusion, even angels or deific apparitions (אֱלֹהִ֥ים) – appear to be ascending from the earth. I’m not saying these experiences didn’t occur, only they are ‘condemned’/evil or an impersonation(Deut. 18:11). Notice once Saul gives the command to conjure, it is the familiar spirit (speaking through the woman) calling out Saul’s disguise (v.12)(cf.Gal.1:8,9)
Therefore, appearance of the dead to a human on earth is impossible, unless an impersonation(evil spirit appearance).
Exception: The Mount of Transfiguration. “who, appearing in glory…”(Luke 9:31 NASU). Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus not the disciples. Peter, James and John saw(v.32) Jesus but couldn’t communicate with the Moses and Elijah. They saw Jesus(v.36) being transfigured. Only God can summon who He wants to. Hope this helps.
I think with Mormons this is a case of seducing spirits or most likely creative imagination. The book I mentioned “Temple Manifestations” is replete with examples of the dead appearing to Mormons. I’m with grindael on a lot of this. I think, quite frankly, that a lot of these reports were hyperbole to try to bolster the claims of Mormonism.
None-the-less the point is that there are demonic spirits bustling about and if people welcome them they will get more than they bargain for.
To be quite honest, I find it frustrating that Mormons can’t comprehend what’s going on with these spirits of dead people popping-up during their temple ceremonies. Just think how their minds are flipped to think that this is something good being sent by God.
Back to basics. We’re not talking about God here; we’re talking about a god. The temple ceremonies provide a welcoming environment for demonic spirits to party. I’m trying to figure out how Mormons get their thinking so out of whack; so totally off-center.
This is what happens when folks follow false prophets with a false gospel acknowledging a false god.
There is no God but God.
@ RikkiJ
A lot of “real dead” people walked and talked with “real living” people just after Jesus was changed from being dead in the flesh to being a resurrected being.
@Parkman
Very sorry, but once a dead person is brought back to life, they are no longer dead. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, he was alive not dead. In the same way, when a dead person comes back to life (in body) then they are alive. When a dead spirit appears to a live person, it’s an impersonation.
Hope this helps.