People who have died are very important to members of the Mormon Church. The dead are a very important aspect of the Mormon gospel. The sixth President of the Church, Joseph F. Smith, taught,
“We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission. The dead are not perfect without us, neither are we without them [see D&C 128:18]. We have a mission to perform for and in their behalf; we have a certain work to do in order to liberate those who, because of their ignorance and the unfavorable circumstances in which they were placed while here, are unprepared for eternal life; we have to open the door for them, by performing ordinances which they cannot perform for themselves, and which are essential to their release from the ‘prison-house,’ to come forth and live according to God in the spirit, and be judged according to men in the flesh [see D&C 138.-33-34].” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, Joseph F. Smith, 410)
Because the dead are such an integral part of Mormonism, it makes sense that Mormon children would be taught about the Church’s doctrine of baptism for the dead.
In a Mormon Church manual produced for teaching children ages 8 through 11 (Primary 5: Doctrine and Covenants: Church History, 1997), children learn “Joseph Smith Teaches about Baptism for the Dead” (Lesson 34, 193-197. Thanks to Keith Walker for drawing my attention to this lesson).
The lesson teaches children both the historical background on the development of Mormonism’s baptism for the dead as well as the scriptures that Mormons understand to be support for the doctrine. As part of the lesson, the manual offers a few “enrichment activities” designed to enhance the children’s grasp of the importance of baptizing the dead. Two of the offered enrichment activities focus on telling the children what most of us would call ‘ghost stories.’
The first is about two friends, Brigitte and Carla.
Brigitte and Carla met in the third grade in Europe. Carla had just been baptized and wanted everyone to know she was a member of the “only true church.” Some of Carla’s classmates made fun of her for saying this, but Brigitte became her friend.
Brigitte’s family was active in their own church, but they were respectful of other religions. Brigitte even went to Church activities with Carla a few times. Brigitte and Carla remained friends all through their school years. Then, at seventeen years of age, Brigitte died.
Two months later Carla awoke in the night to see Brigitte standing at the foot of her bed. She did not speak, and Carla wondered why she had appeared to her. The following year Brigitte visited Carla again, and she came a third time the next year.
Carla later moved to the United States and was married in the Salt Lake Temple. After Carla had been through the temple, Brigitte appeared to her more often. Then, a week before Carla and her husband were planning to go to the temple again, Brigitte appeared to Carla three nights in a row.
On the third night Carla woke her husband and told him about Brigitte’s visits. They both felt Brigitte had been taught the gospel plan in the spirit world and had accepted it. Now she wanted to be baptized. Carla and her husband prayed and asked the Lord how to obtain the necessary records. They were inspired to contact a researcher and were able to get Brigitte’s death certificate. Carla was now able to send in Brigitte’s name to the temple so her temple work, including baptism, could be done.
A few weeks later Carla again awoke to see Brigitte. This time Brigitte was dressed in a white gown and was standing in a place that looked like a baptismal room. The next morning Carla received a letter from the temple telling her that the baptism for Brigitte had been done. (See Carla Sansom, “From Beyond the Veil,” Ensign, Feb. 1978, pp. 49–50.)
The second enrichment story for the children is about the experience of a temple recorder in the Manti Temple:
Brother J. Hatten Carpenter, who served as a recorder in the Manti Temple, told of a patriarch who was watching baptisms for the dead being performed in the temple one day.
The patriarch saw “the spirits of those for whom they were officiating in the font by proxy. There the spirits stood awaiting their turn, and, as the Recorder called out the name of a person to be baptized for, the patriarch noticed a pleasant smile come over the face of the spirit whose name had been called, and he would leave the group of fellow spirits and pass over to the side of the Recorder. There he would watch his own baptism performed by proxy, and then with a joyful countenance would pass away [to] make room for the next favored personage who was to enjoy the same privilege.”
As time went on, the patriarch noticed that some of the spirits looked very sad. He realized that the people in the temple were finished with baptisms for the day. The unhappy spirits were those whose baptisms would not be performed that day.
“‘I often think of this event,’ says Brother Carpenter, ‘for I so often sit at the font, and call off the names for the ordinances to be performed which means so much to the dead’” (quoted in Joseph Heinerman, Temple Manifestations [Manti, Utah: Mountain Valley Publishers, 1974], pp. 101–2; see also The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine 11 [July 1920]: 119).
Mormons are inspired by these stories. Unlike Christianity, which recognizes a biblical prohibition against contact with the dead (e.g., Deuteronomy 18:9-14), Mormonism embraces it. Joseph Heinerman, whose book is quoted (above) in the Primary 5 manual, states,
“These temple manifestations signify God’s distinct approval of the temple labors performed by His people here upon the earth. Hopefully, these inspiring stories will edify the readers as they have me and motivate them to perform temple work more diligently on behalf of both the living and the dead.” (Temple Manifestations, Preface)
God says communication with the dead is a sin, yet Mormonism teaches little children to welcome necromantic contact, be inspired by it, and interpret it as God’s direction and/or approval of proxy ordinance work for the dead. Does anyone else find this troubling?
“…Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Matthew 18:6)
@Parkman – “the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;” (Matt. 27:52a) – it clearly states they were brought back to life, and therefore no longer dead. Once a person is dead, they cannot have a body until the resurrection. A ‘dead spirit’ will fake or conjure up an illusion or apparition of having a body when ‘appearing’ to a person in a dream or vision. Common occurrence in occult.
@ RikkiJ
I accept the fact that when a person is resurrected he is no longer “dead”.
We agree that a person who has died in this life and has been resurrected can act as a messenger for God.
If you would like to understand the “Joseph Smith test” that grindael is referring to you will want to read The Doctrine and Covenants; Section 129. It is very short.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/129?lang=eng
@ RikkiJ
Do you believe that, “When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, he was alive not dead” refers to Lazarus being resurrected?
Mat 23:34 Notice the “will” when He talks about what will be done to theProphets.
New International Version (©1984)
Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
New Living Translation (©2007)
“Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law. But you will kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips in your synagogues, chasing them from city to city.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Matt. 10:41 notice “will recieve”
New International Version (©1984)
Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man’s reward.
New Living Translation (©2007)
If you receive a prophet as one who speaks for God, you will be given the same reward as a prophet. And if you receive righteous people because of their righteousness, you will be given a reward like theirs.
English Standard Version (©2001)
The one who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and the one who receives a righteous person because he is a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
@Parkman – You’ve lost me, can you ply me with a question with regards to the prophet(s)? In any case, if you’ll allow me, I will speak about angels(difficult topic). Angels(good) cannot be a human neither vice versa. Let me demonstrate(good angels):
1. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation.”(Heb.1:14). Angels sent to assist those who are or will be saved. Remember once a human dies he has to face judgment, therefore a human after death cannot be sent back to help anyone:”And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”(Heb.9:27,28)
2. “For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking.” (Heb.2:5).Angels cannot rule in the world to come.
3. “Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;”(This rules out celestial marriage of any kind)”for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.”(Luke20:35-36).Here angels don’t die, they never have and never have been married. Those who are resurrected will never marry but we be LIKE the angels(no death & no marriage). Not become angels.
4. “As to this salvation … these things … things into which angels long to look.”(1Pet.1:10a,12b,12d). Angels long to look into salvation, but obviously are not saved(they never fell[good angels] and don’t need salvation) (Cont’d)
@Parkman (Cont’d)
Therefore one who is resurrected cannot be an angel because an angel cannot die. An angel cannot be saved. An angel cannot rule in the worlds to come (Matt.19:28; Rev.3:21) We humans who are saved will rule.
5. In contrast, fallen man will die(both in this world and the judgment to come)-“This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”(Rev.20:14b,15)
6. I read D&C 129. This seems to contradict what the Bible defines for angels. The Bible declares angels are ministering spirits(no body).”λειτουργικὰ πνεύματα”. Jesus contrasts this with:”for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”(Luke24:29) – Therefore, angels cannot have a body of flesh and bones.
7. Angels are ministering spirits(Heb.1:14), however they may appear as men.(Gen.19:1-21) Jesus in his resurrected body was not recognized(Luke24:37), however angels can be recognized(but never as a dead or returning person).
8. A familiar spirit reinterprets or conjures up the illusion of a departed one. Since a departed one is appointed to face judgment, and cannot return to the earth(Heb.9:27), this is simply an illusion.
9. What is to be done to/for prophets, is what is to be done in the future. It bears no resemblance to angels, departed humans or the life to come. It simply refers to hardship or blessing for prophets in the future – not after this life.
About Matt.10:40, Jesus doesn’t talk about returning to this life, the reward just like the rest of the scriptures is in the life to come.
Jesus raised Lazarus, and resurrection is a future event (John5:28,29;1Cor.15:51,52;2Tim.2:18). Raised from the dead is temporal.
Hope this helps, and many thanks for your excellent feedback.
RickkiJ
Sorry it’s taken me so long to respond to you.
Your interpretation of 1 Samuel 28 is one of the number that can be derived from the text. The Jew’s have never interpreted the story in the way you are. Take for example this quote from a Messianic Jew’s Bible study:
All sorts of Theological theories and doctrines have arisen from this story of Saul and the Witch of En Dor. After the Roman Church was established this incident was discounted as not the real thing. Luther and Calvin both claim that this was a diabolical fake brought about by Satan. The early gentile Church Fathers argued vehemently about this troubling story; Origen (for instance) believed it and took it quite literally, but Eustathius (like Calvin would) said that this was a demonic forgery.
There is no reason to think that this incident was anything but of the Lord, and it was quite real. In fact we have other Scripture that speaks directly to the issue that has caused many Church leaders to simply label the story itself as false, or to give the Devil the credit for Samuel’s appearance and his pronouncements. Would God speak His Word by means of an ungodly situation whereby even a witch is at the center of it?… (he quotes Ezekiel 14: 1-8 before continuing)
Here we have the Word of God exploring just such a situation as we saw at En Dor. Idolatrous Hebrews are seeking God through pagan idols. And what does Yehoveh says He will do when a Hebrew does such a thing? He says that HE shall speak to them as they are consulting these idols, and that He will tell them to repent from their ungodliness or otherwise the Lord will turn away from them and cut them off from the rest of(cont)
(cont)
His people. That is exactly what we saw in the story of Saul and the Witch of En Dor. (http://www.torahclass.com/old-testament-studies/52-old-testament-studies-1st-samuel/894-lesson-43-1st-samuel-28-29)
Also note that Hank Hanwgraaff (a man that wouldn’t agree with me on much) argues that although it is impossible for humans to summon the dead, Samuel did appear before Saul and the witch by a sovereign act of God. Hanegraaff interprets the passage to mean that the witch was surprised by these events.
The view that the actual spirit of Samuel appeared that day is easily reconciled with the text. To hold that it wasn’t Samuel one has to read into the text the preconceived notion that it couldn’t have been him, since the text is so plain. The same goes for The Mound of Transfiguration. There’s nothing in the text that says the disciples couldn’t communicate with Moses and Elijah, only that they didn’t. Nor does it say that the only reason the prophets could speak with Jesus was because he is God. Those are ideas that must be ready into an (admittedly) vague text.
@ RikkiJ
Revelation 3:21 (ESV)
21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
You teach that we are saved only by Grace and that we can do nothing to change what happens to us in the eternities. If we can do nothing, what is Jesus talking about here when He says we must “conquer” something (must “do “something) to sit with Him on Father’s throne?
@ TJayT (cont’d)
Further, now He(God) also appears along with that? The witch observed Samuel, not Saul. The one who is ‘seeing’ this is the witch, which makes it doubly suspect.
The second important aspect of any necromantic or witchcraft encounter is this: all witchcraft is based on one premise – deception. In other words, a lie. A half-truth if you will. “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light”(2Cor.11:14). He is an angel(fallen), but not of light. Therefore, Satan is an expert at using half truths or lies to pretend to be the truth. He misquoted scripture to tempt Jesus, mis-direction or mis-quotation. A false gospel does this to undiscerning listeners. And to reiterate my point, any encounter with a witch, witchdoctor, wizard, necromancer is to encounter a spiritual illusion. This is the basis of the ‘counterfeit’ supernatural element. I don’t disagree that the ‘Endor’ experience happened, just whether the spirit/soul of Samuel was real.
I thank you for your sources, but in understanding what you have said, this flies in the face of God’s abomination – call for avoidance, and severe punishment for involvement in necromancy(Deut.18:11,12). It makes no sense that the Witch of Endor told the truth or experienced a real ‘Samuel’. It is once again the art of necromancy – “conjuring”.
@ Parkman
Thank you for your excellent question. I don’t mind discussing it. But first, I’m going to ask for approval from moderator to discuss the topic. I hope I’m abiding by forum posting guidelines/rules.
@ TJayT
There are narratives in the Bible that talk about this. I’ve discussed what the Witch of Endor conjured up(an illusion). Here, the dead are transfigured by Jesus Christ. Let us compare the differences (between Jesus and the disciples) at the scene.
1. The conversation was with Jesus. No evidence of disciples talking.(Luke9:30)
2. Jesus’ appearance changes to “dazzling”.(Luke9:29) The disciples fall asleep.(Luke9:32)
2. Jesus talks(Luke9:30) – the full experience. Peter and his companions only see the two men and glory(Luke9:32) when they awake. a partial experience.
3. The men(Moses & Elijah) then left Jesus(Luke 9:33). Peter makes a case to build an altar/tabernacle(Luke9:33).
4. The cloud envelops all 4 men and God speaks from heaven to confirm(Luke9:34,35).
The onus is on you my friend to prove that the disciples spoke with those 2 men, because according to the scriptures listed above, it only states that they saw or were observers of the vision.
We cannot read into what the text didn’t say, only observe what has happened. Jesus spoke with the 2 men, but not the disciples. “εἶδον”.
If they spoke, show me a scripture in the Bible that states they did.
@ TJayT
5. One more thing, the men left Jesus, not the disciples and not the entire group. [And as these were leaving Him] or
@ TJayT
Apologies, I tried to submit this last night(before 11:34pm), (thanks for your patience, this precedes that post):
Your research is intriguing. I find that authors may or may not be given weight depending on whether they agree with the Bible as a whole.
How can we establish that the ‘Endor’ event is a trick?
First, a witch doesn’t need to do a ritual to cause a spirit to appear. Certain Eastern Monks(non-Christian) have contact with spirits and conjure them up at will(without ritual). I will leave description of these rituals as I don’t encourage or promote these rituals. Therefore, the commentators stating that this witch not doing the ritual may not understand non-necessity for the illusion.
(1Sam.28:8)
Literally in the Hebrew, “Conjure, conjure”.
To make it clearer – the request to her is to practice divination(repeated twice in the verse). The witch(an expert in divination), saw “Samuel” and cried out. Even though she “saw” Samuel, it doesn’t mean the Samuel she saw was real. It could entirely be a fabrication. After this, (in the story) there’s a great pretense that goes on.
Here it refers to the practice of calling up the dead. It doesn’t tell us if the dead are really called up, or if it’s an illusion – (all witchcraft is based on lies).
What is interesting is that God tells us Israel, this is detestable – literally “הַתּוֹעֵבֹ֣ת” – an abomination/loathing. God denounces necromancy as something he hates. But suddenly in the Witch of Endor incident, he’s ok with it? But not only this, now he also permits Samuel to appear? (cont’d)
RikkiJ
No worries. I saw the original post appeared right when you redid it. It’s happened to me before.
I understand my research doesn’t fit with your understanding of the Bible as a whole, so you given no weight to it. And That’s fine, Lord I know is I do it too (we all do). But the good Christians I cited that don’t agree with your understanding would be equally determined in there view as you are. There’s more than one way to legitimatly interpret scripture.
1. There maybe people that claim to need no ritual to summon spirits. However there (to my understanding) is no such divinator described in classical literature from the region at that time (note: I’m no expert, but back in my college days I was going for a major in history with an emphasis in archaic greece. I never got my degree but I have read a lot about the cultures in the region at the time and the subject I still enjoy it) let alone the Old Testament. It’s always assumed the person used some rituals, object, or specific place. Therefore it’s safe to assume that she was like the other necromancer’s around her.
2. You’re correct, just because she saw Samuel doesn’t mean it was real. But the text treat’s it as if it was. Also the fact that she’s so afraid of what is happening suggest it’s something out of the ordinary.
3. I’m not suggesting she summoned Samuel under her own power. I’m saying God allowed Samuel to return from Sheul to pronounce Saul’s doom. In your interpretation God’s prophecy is delivered by an evil spirit. I find this hard to believe than God sending Saul just what he wanted (You-got-what-you-wanted, but you lost-what-you-had!)
(Cont)
4. I agree that trying how to use a divinor to find the future is against God’s will. And that was the straw/sin that broke Saul’s back and a lead to his destruction. When read nothing in the text indicates this was a trick, but instead God’s final proclamation of doom to Saul. And as you said a little later “We cannot read into what the text didn’t say, only observe what has happened.”
The only things I would change in your description of events at the Transfiguration are that Moses and Elijah didn’t leave until the clouds descended, and I didn’t they let everyone there
“33 As Moses and Elijah were starting to leave, Peter, not even knowing what he was saying, blurted out, “Master, it’s wonderful for us to be here! Let’s make three shelters as memorials f —one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
34 But even as he was saying this, a cloud overshadowed them, and terror gripped them as the cloud covered them.
35 Then a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him.”
36 When the voice finished, Jesus was there alone. They didn’t tell anyone at that time what they had seen.” (NLT Luke 9: 33-36)
No big deal though imo.
You must have misunderstood me. I don’t think the two men talked with the disciples. I even made that point when I said “There’s nothing in the text that says the disciples couldn’t communicate with moses and elijah, only that they didn’t.”. The men only talked to Jesus, but there’s nothing that says they couldn’t have talk to others if God wished them to.
Thanks for the civil and enlightening discussion. It’s been a great pleasure talking to you.
@ TJayT
Your comments leave me wondering. There’s nothing that says Jesus didn’t say to the thief on the cross,”Hello my dear friend, our father in heaven.” But according to you he could have, simply because it wasn’t recorded. And this I feel is a flaw in logic:
You are proving a point from the negative. Someone could say, “Oh the Bible doesn’t talk about drugs, but if it did it would approve it” or vice-versa “Oh the Bible doesn’t talk about drugs, but if it did it wouldn’t approve it”. Simply put your presumptions are weak, because you seem to overlook the obvious:
The men appeared to Jesus:
They left Jesus:
That is all the text states, and you haven’t risen to the challenge to prove that any human (outside of necromancy which is based on lies and deception) has spoken to the dead aside from witchcraft rituals.
No proof is proof of nothing.
According to you – perhaps Jesus walked upside down and on four legs all his life, but it doesn’t say that. So perhaps he could have done it, but just because it doesn’t say it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. The point I’m making, is that you’re using air to make buildings, and it’s a hard thing to do.
Bottom line, the two men appeared to Jesus, and they left Jesus. Where does it say they appeared or spoke to the others? Please quote scripture.
Thank you for your excellent contribution.
@ TJayT
Addendum: I would say that my understanding of the Bible as a whole can be flawed. I can be wrong mistaken or misled. However, I would much prefer if you would be able to show me from the Bible, where the Bible specifically talks about trusting necromancy, spiritism or any prophecy that is borne from that tree.
If God condemns and hates it, why trust it?
Thank you for bring up an excellent point.
RikkiJ
I think I must have been confusing the last few posts, and for that I’m sorry. If you don’t mind I would like to ask you a few questions we may have already gone over just to make sure I understand you and we’re on the same page.
You said “Exception: The Mount of Transfiguration. “who, appearing in glory…”(Luke 9:31 NASU). Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus not the disciples. Peter, James and John saw(v.32) Jesus but couldn’t communicate with the Moses and Elijah. They saw Jesus(v.36) being transfigured. Only God can summon who He wants to.”
1. According to Matt 17:3 and Mark 9:4 Moses and Elijah did appear to all of them. Am I misunderstanding what you ment?
2. Where in the text does it say they couldn’t have communicated with the Prophets?
3. You said “Humans cannot meet the real dead (for any reason) while on earth.” Where in the bible does it say this?
4. Where in the bible does it specifically say the spirit Saul talked with wasn’t Samuel?
Thanks in advance for your patience.
@ Parkman
Parkman, sorry for not responding right away. Moderator was kind enough to give permission to discuss the topic you mentioned in this thread. I will be responding over this week. Thanks for your patience.
By the way, I do get – comments awaiting moderation from time to time, when I submit (post comment) multiple comments. It’s not just happening to you!
@ TJayT
I’ve been mulling over our discussion over the last few days and gathering information. I think I have been able to come to a suitable response to your questions. Thank you for keeping on my toes. I’m sorry I haven’t been able to respond in a timely fashion, but research takes time. And finally, thank you for your patience! I’ll post over the next few days.
RikkiJ
No rush, I know how things can be. Also a thought for you. I have no problem discussing everything here but I also know that the word count and posting limit can sometimes make it difficult. So if you would like to talk about this or anything off topic feel free to email me at [email protected]
Sorry for not being in touch, I’ll continue this conversation through email – thanks TJayT for the followup.