From The 1887 LDS Hymn Book

Hymn #297

1. The God that others worship is not the God for me,
He has no parts nor body, and cannot hear nor see,
But I’ve a God that reigns above,
A God of power and of love,
A God of revelation, O, that’s the God for me!
O, that’s the God for me!
O, that’s the God for me!

2. A Church without a Prophet is not the Church for me,
It has no head to lead it, in it I would not be;
But I’ve a Church not made by man,
Cut from the mountain without hand,
A Church with gifts and blessings, O, that’s the Church for me.
O, that’s, etc.

3. A Church without Apostles is not the Church for me,
‘Tis like a ship dismasted, afloat upon the sea;
But I’ve a Church that’s always led
With the Twelve Stars around her head,
A Church with good foundation, O, that’s the Church for me.
O, that’s, etc.

4. The hope that Gentiles cherish is not the hope for me,
It has no faith nor knowledge, far from it I would be;
But I’ve a hope that will not fal,
It reaches far within the vail [sic],
Which hope is like an anchor, O, that’s the hope for me.
O, that’s, etc.

5. The heaven of sectarians is not the heaven for me,
So doubtful its location, neither on land nor sea;
But I’ve a heaven upon the earth,
The land and home that gave me birth,
A heaven of light and knowledge, O, that’s the heaven for me.
O, that’s, etc.

6. A Church without a gathering is not the Church for me,
The Savior would not own it, wherever it might be;
But I’ve a Church that is called out
From false tradition, fear and doubt,
A gathering dispensation, O, that’s the Church for me.
O, that’s, etc.

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78 Responses to From The 1887 LDS Hymn Book

  1. 4fivesolas says:

    Looking at the second verse of this Mormon hymn I see many more problems –

    “A Church without a Prophet is not the Church for me” – Mormons are wrong – the Church has an eternally living Prophet, Priest, and King who promised to always lead His Church. Jesus is God come in the flesh to perfectly fulfill the role of Divine Prophet and guide His Church.

    “It has no head to lead it, in it I would not be;” – who is the head of the Church? Once again, Jesus promised to be wherever 2 or more are gathered in his name. The Church is His bride, He is the bride groom. Jesus promised to be the eternal head of the Church. Anyone who would usurp that position is denying Jesus His proper role as the head of the Church – and is actually working against Christ.

    “But I’ve a Church not made by man,
    Cut from the mountain without hand,” – wow, looking at the history of the Mormon Church I could not think of a religion that is more apparently made by man – with ever shifting doctrine, rituals adapted from man-made Masonic rituals, and a books of Mormon scripture that are completely divorced from reality and must be accepted purely on subjective experience – don’t look for any corroborating evidence, you’ll grow weary with the effort.

    “A Church with gifts and blessings, O, that’s the Church for me.” – God has given the Church many gifts and blessing which are spelled out specifically in Scripture: Holy baptism, the Lord’s Supper, the forgiveness of sins, eternal life with God through Christ crucified and risen. The so-called Mormon gifts of sealings and eternal marriage are man-made fabrications.

  2. 4fivesolas says:

    Obama has power and influence – he cannot see or hear me. How does this seeing and hearing by power and influence work with billions of people? Or does it not matter, he just needs to see who is in the room with him for being able to “see and hear?” If so, that’s not how I would define being able to see and hear — it’s far removed from me and likely that I would never truly be seen or heard.

    Also, any Christian who denies Jesus has a body is wrong – it’s just not Scriptural and not a Christian teaching to deny Jesus’ physical body. There were some gnostic heretics who denied Jesus physical reality, but they were expelled from the Church.

  3. Mike R says:

    Shem, I find your choice of words here interesting because you used the word “force” .
    Did B.Y.force this teaching on the Saints , no. Are the non-LDS on this blog trying
    to “force” this teaching on the LDS , no. Jesus warned of prophets in the latter days
    who would depart from the truth and teach false doctrine . The Mormon people need to
    be warned (with the respect they deserve) to step back and examine their prophets and not
    be lulled into a false sense of security just because their leadership are well dressed polite
    individuals who talk a lot about living a moral lifestyle . Not all false prophets are immoral
    conniving men.

    Paul talks about those who will swerve from sound doctrine and wander into false doctrine,
    and this Brigham Young did. Looking more closely we find:
    1. Even Mormon researchers have concluded that He taught what is called the Adam-God
    doctrine . 2. Years after his death his teaching has been deemed to be false doctrine
    by Mormon authorities . 3. Was it Church doctrine ? No it was’nt, it was’nt as you termed
    it, “forced on LDS” by their leadership. But that brings up an equally important question
    which is : was there LDS who followed him into this heresy ? Yes there were. Why? Mormons
    love to proclaim “follow the prophet” you won’t be misled ; he is the source for pure doctrine
    you can always have confidence in the prophet to never teach false doctrine. B.Y. said it
    was his duty to never advance incorrect doctrine. So , LDS simply trusted him , period.
    This could happen again at any time given the type of allegiance LDS give their prophet.
    Matt 24:11

  4. falcon says:

    Well here is some more information for Mormons who can’t quite get their minds around the idea that God is a spirit.
    When you have bizarre, unreliable leaders/prophets who want to play “let’s start a religion”, you get odd-ball doctrines and teachings bolstered by fantastic claims of miraculous visions and all manner of spirit aperations. Then the followers get conned into an emotional response which they suppose confirms all of the goofiness.
    Mormonism is a false religious system that attempts to piggy back on the Christian faith but is so far off the bubble that anyone with even an iota of curiosity can figure out is totally manufactured.

    “In many passages in Scripture God is described as having bodily parts. The Bible describes God’s eyes, arms, hand, fingers, and feet. These images are not to be understood literally. The technical term for them is anthropomorphism. This is the attributing of physical characteristics to God. Rather than literal descriptions of God’s Person, they are rather descriptive pictures that the Bible uses to help us better understand the varied character of God.
    If one wishes to take these references to God’s character literally then they will wind up with a very interesting-looking being. Consider these verses:

    Feathers And Wings
    The psalmist speaks of the feathers and wings of God.
    He shall cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you shall trust (Psalm 91:4).
    Sword For A Tongue
    John wrote about God’s tongue is like a sword.
    He had in his right hand seven stars, out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword (Revelation 1:16).
    A Door
    Jesus said that He was a door.
    Jesus said: “I am the door” (John 10:9).
    The writer to the Hebrews stated:
    For our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29).”

  5. Rick B says:

    Let me correct something I said. I said RLDS and FLDS want to be know as Christians, and LDS wont except them as Christians.

    I meant to say, the RLDS and FLDS want to be know as Mormons, and the LDS will not acknowledge them as such, but thats ok for you guys to do that. But when we say, Your not Christians, then you get mad, I see no difference in LDS saying that to the RLDS and the FLDS, and us saying it to LDS.

    Now onto this, You said

    James 1: 5 very clearly tells us to pray about everything.

    Really, it clearly says pray about everything? This it what it say,

    If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    Now the words PRAY ABOUT THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE, is not found in that verse anyplace.

    It says, ask God for wisdom. Truth and wisdom are not the same thing. I have wisdom to know do not walk out onto a busy freeway during rush hour. I cannot say, I have truth about that.

    I have also said this before, I see way to many problems in Mormonism, and I am not the only person, Everyone who has ever left the church has, everyone who is a author that studies Mormonism and speaks against it. Thats a lot of people.

    Yet like I said before, we will never see the prophet speak out in a GC and say, I see lots of people coming forth with issues that they see as a problem for or in Mormonism. I see many so called critics of Mormonism, so as the prophet, since I belive in James 1:5 (cont)

  6. Rick B says:

    And according to what my church said and teaches, the prophet is the only person that can speak for the Lord in everything and I and our church believes in ongoing revelation, so let me pray to God and get these issues cleared up.

    You and I know that has not and never will happen. You might make excuses as to why it wont, or maybe even simply wont have an answer, I dont know.

    Now when I said people simply dont agree on scripture and it’s that simple, you seem not to agree. So let me ask you this. what exactly do you think is being said in these verses?

    John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    You can read more for context, I just have a word limit and dont want to use it up.

    But according to this, the religious leaders are asking Jesus what work(S) plural must we do?

    Jesus replied with the work (Singular work) Is simply to believe.

    Now I dont know, maybe I am dense, but if Jesus said, the only work is to believe,and the LDS church claims I must do other works, I think I will stick to what Jesus said.

  7. parkman says:

    “…– don’t look for any corroborating evidence, you’ll grow weary with the effort.”
    It is not my fault that most of you cannot find what is freely given. More often than not, it is easy to find the information on the internet. The LDS Church spends a lot of time and money insuring that knowledge is easily available

    “Are the non-LDS on this blog trying to “force” this teaching on the LDS , no.”
    ???????????????? Looks different from where I sit.

    “Rather than literal descriptions of God’s Person, they are rather descriptive pictures that the Bible uses to help us better understand the varied character of God.”
    Without someone having authority from God to speak for Him on earth all you have are your “true teachers’ and your “false teachers” fighting over what God intended to say. So far, the only thing I can see as to which are the “true teachers’ and which are the “false teachers” is how much you agree with them.

  8. falcon says:

    Yea Rick,
    This praying for wisdom is one of those passages that Mormons pluck out of the air and try to apply it to receiving chills and thrills that the BoM is an actual history of an actual people.
    My guess is that there are things in the BoM that could affect a person emotionally; especially the preaching of the eight evangelist. This was pointed out by Grant Palmer author of “An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins”.
    Excellent interview with Grant Palmer on the “Mormon Stories” program. I’ve listened to it and found it quite enlightening coming from a life long Mormon.
    Grant Palmer ended up getting dis-fellow-shipped for his efforts to educate folks regarding Mormonism. They didn’t actually excommunicate him. He had hopes that Mormonism would reform itself.
    Fat chance I’d say!

  9. Mike R says:

    ?????????? Looks different from where I sit ” .

    You’ve brought your own chair and made the choice where to sit .

  10. Ralph says:

    Sorry about the absence but I started a new job with shift work and on call so I have had to balance a few things and have not had time to make any thoughtful answers.

    All I can ask first is what is this about? All you have given is a hymn with no question or comment, so what is it about? Then why say stop being sidetracked with the Trinity if its mentioned in the song?

    If it’s because its a hymn stating the beliefs of our church and we used it in our past church services, then why not? The Anglican (from my father’s experience) and Lutheran (from my experiences in Finland) churches recited the creed that they subscribed to at each of their Sunday meetings. This is the same thing only made into a song. No difference, so I see no problems there.

    If it’s because it’s stating our beliefs and you disagree with them, then what’s new? As Parkman or Shem said, these are all found taught in the Bible according to our interpretation of it, but isn’t according to your interpretation of it.


    Jesus said – ask and ye shall receive. How do we ask God for something? Through prayer. The scripture does not specify what can and can’t be asked for, it just states ask and ye shall receive. So if one wants to ask to know the truth about scripture then all they need to do about it is pray.

  11. falcon says:

    This sounds super spiritual:

    “So if one wants to ask to know the truth about scripture then all they need to do about it is pray.”

    Here’s the problem with your “all they need to do” is pray about it approach. The Book of Acts provides us with an example of what those who heard Paul’s preaching did. The Bereans didn’t just pray about it. Acts 17:11 tells us, “Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, [a]for they received the word with [b]great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.”
    I’d never down play the effectiveness of prayer. However I’ve seen too many examples of people praying about things and coming to the wrong conclusions. These are sincere people. Think of all of the people who have prayed, as directed by the Mormons, regarding the truthfulness of the BoM and thought they had received an answer that it was true. And then latter, after careful study, found out that it was false.
    The effectiveness of the idea of praying to find out if something is true then comes into question. In order to preserve the notion that the answer to the original prayer was correct, because the contrary is too painful, they deny the reality of the evidence. Other people become bitter and angry. They turn away from God all together becoming atheists. This is too bad because their anger shouldn’t be toward God. Their anger should be towards those who planted the false notions in their heads in their first place and then manipulated them into believing (these notions).
    Jesus didn’t tell His disciples to pray about Him to see if he was true. He pointed them to the Scriptures that testified regarding Himself. This is where the truth lies. Not in a false book.

  12. Rick B says:

    It seems you and all the other LDS just dont get it, I dont have a problem with prayer, I pray and God answers prayer. My wife had MS for a little over 10 years. We prayed and she prayed for her to be healed, She has to take daily shots to help the pain, the shots were so bad that she said she was scarred and looked and felt like a pin cushion.

    Then she had to have a home IV drip of some strong medicine that was so bad her body went numb for an entire month, she could feel no pain, no pleasure, nothing. The doctors told her this was a severe side effect. It was so bad she said she would rather suffer the MS than ever do that again.

    Sadly she had to do it again or she might have died. Well we were planning on going to Israel for two weeks and she was praying and felt the Lord tell her, she will be healed of her MS in Israel. She was told that I needed to pray for her and when and where, so I did. She was healed on the spot.

    The Doctors have no idea how or why, they reject the Idea it was prayer, but the also cannot explain it. But we have 10 plus years of evidence from MRI’s to much other evidence from doctors that she really had it and it was not a mistake. I have shared this with Non-believing family and friends, Non-believing in the form of Atheists, None of them either believe or care, they still reject God despite this Miracle.

    But now back to the issue of LDS dont understand what I mean on the issue of prayer, (cont)

  13. Rick B says:

    As I said, I believe in prayer, But prayer does not and will not determine truth. As I said, we have LDS, RLDS, FLDS, they all cannot agree, but believe through prayer they were told they are the true church, Then we have JW’s, Muslims, Buddhists, and many other religions. They all believe they are correct and they used prayer to claim they are correct. Then as I said, Like it or not, agree with me or not, their is much confusion among THE LDS church. All the various issues from Blood atonement, Adam God, blacks and the priesthood, and many other issues.

    Shem simply claims this is not doctrine and mere speculation or these peoples opinions. Yet many LDS did believe this was scripture/doctrine and it was stated by many PROPHETS that it is false doctrine. So why is it the LDS prophets/presidents dont go to God in prayer, ask to have all this cleared up and settle it once and for all?

    You and Shem and Parkman can say, I dont know, or say, I cannot speak for them or make excuses for them, but in the long run, they never have done this and never will, I say they never will because your prophets are false, they teach another gospel and they simply could not make up something to solve all the problems.

    If you guys claim I am wrong, then please ask your prophet why he wont pray and get an answer for this. But I also suspect, you wont simply be able to talk to the prophet and ask him, since he is to busy doing Gods work to talk to the average LDS member.

  14. johnsepistle says:

    Ralph queried, “All I can ask first is what is this about? All you have given is a hymn with no question or comment, so what is it about?”

    My take on the hymn is that I find it objectionable, not because it expresses LDS beliefs, but in particular because it represents a crude and mean-spirited caricature of the beliefs of other Christians. In order to boastingly exalt Mormonism over traditional Christianity, it has to go on the attack. Even that I wouldn’t really have a problem with, except for the viciousness of the assault, the poor representation of Christian beliefs (some of which 4fivesolas has discussed), and the likely inability of the people singing this hymn to actually engage in a serious argument against those Christian beliefs. That’s the problem here.

    As to your postscript on prayer, I’m sure you can recognize the problems that your very simple (I might say even simplistic) approach to that verse has. If you really want to press the unqualified application into praying for answers to questions, then you turn the verse into a guarantee of an answer to any question. As Rick points out, even the LDS Church can’t sustain something this extreme, because if yours were a normative LDS interpretation, then there would be not even the slightest excuse for the vast expanses of unresolved controversies in LDS thought. To avoid this and yet keep your line of thinking, you’d have to present an account of the text that still applies it to getting questions answered by God but without getting carte blanche. I have doubt that you could craft that kind of account. No disrespect to the role of prayer, but things are more complex than you make them out to be.

  15. falcon says:

    Very good, well thought out post. Very logical. Makes sense.
    Here’s the problem. It’s the way Mormons think. I’ve been pressing this point lately. The reason is to alleviate my own frustration as well as that I’ve my fellow Christian posters. The “pray to know the truth” is a cult leaders dream scheme. Just think of it. No evidence is required. Simply generate some positive feelings about something and call it a word from the Lord. That was one of Joseph Smith’s selling points as to why someone should join his fledgling religion. He told the prospects that they too could receive personal revelation from God. He ran into problems however because why did a member have to listen to him when they could get information directly from God. He had to rework that concept.
    It’s really no wonder that Mormonism is a warehouse of misinformation and all sorts of “doctrine” that is suddenly not doctrine any more. What does praying for the truth do for the doctrine and teachings that are today considered “folklore” in LDS circles?

  16. 4fivesolas says:

    Echoing what Johnsepistle wrote, I think that this hymn states Mormon belief in much the same way that the Islamic declaration of “there is only one God, and He has no son” is used in the Muslim religion – it’s not so much an affirmative statement of what Mormons believe as it is an attack on Christianity positioned as Mormon belief. Some Christian creeds are reactionary in this way (for instance the Athanasian creed and its vigorous proclamation of the Trinity to combat Arianism – and I don’t consider this bad), but for the most part Christian beliefs are affirmed without juxtapositioning what we believe against other religions.

  17. shematwater says:


    Oh, there is a difference between wisdom and truth, and I don’t deny that. The difference is that wisdom is our ability to understand and comprehend truth.
    Using your example, you have wisdom not to enter the freeway because you comprehend the truth concerning mortality and the frailty of the Human body, as well as the truth of the probability of accidents during rush hour if you were to take this course of action. Your wisdom allows you to understand this, and thus you make a choice.
    There are those who lack the wisdom to understand the truth of mortality (delusions of grandeur and all that) that may make a different choice because of their lack of wisdom.

    Speaking of understanding the Bible, God has promised us wisdom, with which we can gain the ability to understand and comprehend the truths that the Bible teaches; without which we cannot understand said truths.
    In James 1: 5 we are very clearly told that if we ask God (pray) we can receive wisdom to understand all truth. It does not say we can ask him, but tells us we should ask him. It is the humble that will approach God in prayer and ask him to enlighten their minds with the wisdom necessary to understand the meaning of the Bible.

  18. shematwater says:

    Now, Ralph brings in a new scripture, which also clearly tells us that we can ask God to explain the Bible to us. He has been attacked for being too simple in this, but it seems that he was merely adding to what I had already said.
    So, let me restate this:
    God has promised us that if we ask him in faith he will withhold nothing from us that is right for us to have. This is the only limitation he puts on this as he will not grant an evil petition. As such, we have the promise that if we ask for understanding concerning the Bible we will receive it.
    We do not say that we do not have to study the Bible, as anyone can clearly see in my past posts (something that Falcon tried to implied, based only of Ralph’s comments). We must study them, as we cannot ask in faith concerning them without this study. But we should never assume that we have the wisdom to understand the truth contained there-in without God’s help (which is what James warns against in 3: 15)

    Now, since you have failed to explain it to us, please show us in the Bible where it tells us not to pray about the Bible; give us the reference that says “Don’t ask me what the Bible means?”

  19. shematwater says:


    Let us move on here.
    John 6: 28-29
    This means that God wants us to believe on Jesus Christ. If we truly believe than we have fulfilled the desire of God.
    One must then ask themselves what it means to truly believe. After all, Christ has also said that we must be born of water and the spirit to enter the Kingdom of God. (John 3: 5) Now, if we believe Him we will be baptized, as he has said. If we are not baptized than we prove that we do not believe.
    The same can be said of every commandment ever given. James tells us that Faith without works is dead. It is the faith that is the work of God, but it is through obedience that that work is accomplished.

    Speaking of the FLDS and RLDS and all the others: Here is the difference.
    Mormon is a term that has come to be associated with the LDS church. To use it for these other groups causes confusion as to which one people are talking about. When you call the FLDS Mormon most people assume that means they are part of the same religion as the LDS. For this reason we prefer a distinction be made. (though I don’t recall anyone getting mad over this, and we do acknowledge they are part of the same movement).
    Christian, on the other hand, is so broad a term that there is no real confusion in its use. There are so many denomination that one makes the distinction out of habit, and uses the term Christian as an umbrella phrase to refer to all those that are part of that movement.

    I don’t care if you call the FLDS ‘Mormons’ as long as you clarify

  20. shematwater says:

    And one last thing: you say “we will never see the prophet speak out in a GC and say, I see lots of people coming forth with issues that they see as a problem for or in Mormonism. I see many so called critics of Mormonism, so as the prophet, since I belive in James 1:5”

    You will never hear a prophet address the concerns of those who are not concerned with the welfare of the church. That is true. Mainly because the opinions of the world don’t matter that much. It is the will of the Lord that we strive to follow.
    However, it has happened at times that the Prophet has stood and declared that something had crept into the minds of the members that needed to be addressed. This is not an uncommon occurance.


    When I say you are forcing the doctrine on us I mean that you are trying to make it out that it is a required doctrine; that anyone belonging to the church has to accept it if they are to be honest about their faith. Quite honestly, simply by bringing it up you are saying “Unless you can prove this doctrine than you have a false faith.” This is forcing it on us, and it is something that should be ignored.

  21. Rick B says:

    I have said before you do not understand the Bible, and you seem to claim you do. Again I will say, you dont. You really believe that Jesus was talking about baptism when he was talking to Nicodemus. That is not at all what He was speaking of, He was talking about physical birth and being born of a women.

    In order for you to be born of a women, her water must break first, that being born of water. Then since I know you wont believe me, read what Nicodemus said, John 3:4

    Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

    He even understood Jesus to mean Being born of a women. Also if Baptism is required for salvation, then why does Scripture tell us, Jesus did not baptize people? You would think Jesus would be doing that, and scripture tells us, Paul said, God did not send me to baptize, and I forgot how many I baptized and if it is required, why did Paul say to the Jailer, in order to be saved you must believe on Jesus, yet no mention of baptism.

  22. shematwater says:


    I have heard that take before, concerning what Christ meant when he said we must be born of water. Your attempt to use Nicodemus’s question to prove it doesn’t work, however, because he was not questioning the idea of being born of water, but of being born again. Let us read it in full.

    John 3: 3-5
    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

    Notice here that first Christ says that a man must be born again, which Nicodemus finds confusing. He did not understand Christ to mean physical birth, but misunderstood his meaning. He asks his question, and to clarify Christ says one must be born of water and the spirit. This would indicate that to be born again one must be born of water and the spirit. Thus physical birth cannot be part of it, as that would not be being born again.

    You once said that you simply accept what the Bible says, but here you are imposing an interpretation on it.

  23. shematwater says:


    As to Baptism being required, you really need to read more.

    Mark 16: 16
    ” He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
    Notice that one must believe and be baptized to be saved.

    Acts 2: 38
    “Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
    Acts 10: 48
    “And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord…”
    Twice Peter commanded those converted to be baptized. Why would he do this if it was not essential?

    Acts 22: 16
    ” And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
    Ananias commands Paul to be baptized, which I think we can assume he did.

    Titus 3: 5
    ” Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”
    Here is one of my favorite, for it speaks to the same thing that Christ said in John 3. The washing of regeneration is baptism, and then the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Just as Christ had said that we must be born of water and the spirit, Paul is here telling us that it is through this that we are saved.

    Now, I have no doubt that you have some way to explain all these verses so that they don’t say what they clearly mean. But it is obvious that the Bible teaches that baptism is essential to our salvation.

  24. Rick B says:

    Shem, You are correct I dont believe we must be baptized to be saved. Yes I believe we should be, but it is not required. These verse do not mention Baptism to be saved.

    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Then If we must be baptized to be saved, then people on their death bed or people or death row about to die, cannot be saved since they cannot be baptized.

  25. Rick B says:

    Brigham Young said

    Baptism is an essential ordinance for our salvation.

    If this is true, then why do we not read any accounts of Jesus or the Apostles ever once saying, In order to be saved, you must be baptized. Then in the Bible I read accounts of Jesus not baptizing, and the apostle Paul claiming Jesus did not send him to baptize.

    John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

    John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,).

    1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

    1Cr 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

    1Cr 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

    1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

    1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

    Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

  26. Rick B says:

    Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

    Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

    Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

    Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    This will be one that we will probably need to debate more if and when it comes again. I will be working all day sat-monday night and wont reply much on any topic from here on out till at least Tue.

  27. shematwater says:


    We can through verses around all you want. The problem is that you are ignoring some in favor of others, and then claiming to simply believe what the Bible says. The verses that clearly show baptism to be essential are in no way contradictory to the ones you give, but a full understanding is needed to see it.

    For instance, Romans 10, which you quote, does imply baptism is needed. It reads “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness.” What does this mean? It means that those who truly believe with be righteous, and thus will be baptized. As such it is rightly said that those who confess and believe will be saved, but not simply for believing; but for believing enough to be righteous.

    Also, 1 John 1: 7 tells us “if we walk in the light… the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” Since it is made clear elsewhere that baptism is necessary, can we truth claim to walk in the light without it? No. We walk in the light be obeying the commands of God, including baptism, and by so doing we are cleansed.

    By the way, I have never believed in Death Bed Baptism. Thus you are right that people who have procrastinated until their death bed or until they are on death row are going to have a hard time. However, such is not impossible, as is evidenced by the thief on the Cross. This is what the provisions of Baptism for the Dead were instituted for: Those who were unable to perform the needed work in this life.

  28. shematwater says:


    As to Christ and Paul not baptizing; not everyone has the same calling.
    Christ was not sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel and fulfill the law. He has his duty, and in order to fulfill it He could not take the time to perform the baptisms himself. However, given the fact that it states that “Jesus made and baptized more disciples” it seems clear that Christ did in fact expect such to take place, and thus giving further support to the fact that it is required.

    As to Paul, he states that he did baptize a few, and that those that he did not baptize were baptized by others. Again, Paul was sent not to baptize, but to preach the gospel to the gentiles and open the way for the gospel to go to the rest of the world. He baptized a few, but generally sent for others of the brethren (Crispus and Giaus) to do the baptizing. But the fact that he did have others perform this work would again indicate that such was necessary.

    Again, I say that you are not simply accepting what the Bible says, but are reading into it what you want.

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