Hymn #297
1. The God that others worship is not the God for me,
He has no parts nor body, and cannot hear nor see,
But I’ve a God that reigns above,
A God of power and of love,
A God of revelation, O, that’s the God for me!
O, that’s the God for me!
O, that’s the God for me!
2. A Church without a Prophet is not the Church for me,
It has no head to lead it, in it I would not be;
But I’ve a Church not made by man,
Cut from the mountain without hand,
A Church with gifts and blessings, O, that’s the Church for me.
O, that’s, etc.
3. A Church without Apostles is not the Church for me,
‘Tis like a ship dismasted, afloat upon the sea;
But I’ve a Church that’s always led
With the Twelve Stars around her head,
A Church with good foundation, O, that’s the Church for me.
O, that’s, etc.
4. The hope that Gentiles cherish is not the hope for me,
It has no faith nor knowledge, far from it I would be;
But I’ve a hope that will not fal,
It reaches far within the vail [sic],
Which hope is like an anchor, O, that’s the hope for me.
O, that’s, etc.
5. The heaven of sectarians is not the heaven for me,
So doubtful its location, neither on land nor sea;
But I’ve a heaven upon the earth,
The land and home that gave me birth,
A heaven of light and knowledge, O, that’s the heaven for me.
O, that’s, etc.
6. A Church without a gathering is not the Church for me,
The Savior would not own it, wherever it might be;
But I’ve a Church that is called out
From false tradition, fear and doubt,
A gathering dispensation, O, that’s the Church for me.
O, that’s, etc.
ON CHIRST THE SOLID ROCK I STAND
ALL OTHER GROUND IS SINKING SAND
ALL OTHER GROUND IS SINKING SAND
Thank you for sharing the old hymn, I have not studied the old hymn books.
Did the old songbook have notes with the words or did it just say to sing it using a known tune?
It does show the difference between the Trinitarian Christian and an LDS Christian.
Yea every verse is full of odd, peculiar, messed-up thinking that’s so far out in left field that it isn’t even good heresy.
It starts with the first verse basically describing the Mormon god. There isn’t anything is scripture, whether the OT or NT, or Church tradition that supports such a notion of God. So where does it come from? Well ideas like this come from a self-identified “prophet” who never met a bizarre (idea) he didn’t like. That’s the foundation of Mormonism and for those who get the chills over it, it’s spiritual death.
If Mormons will accept these “visions” and “revelations” and the back story that supports them, I’ve got an unending stream of similar claims for them.
Once a person moves away from God’s Word and starts to follow spirit sightings, self-proclaimed prophets and wild thoughts posed as revelation, they have committed spiritual suicide.
Funny. Everything mentioned in this song I find all through the Bible. There isn’t a single doctrine it declares that is not supported by that great book.
Yea it’s all in the Bible. That gave me my laugh for the day. While this may fly down at the wards where Mormons will believe just about anything, for those of us who know and understand the Bible, we know the Mormon game.
Mormons have absolutely no clue about using a systematic means of doing Biblical exegesis.
Nice try. You’re not talking to a bunch of gullible Mormons here.
“Yea it’s all in the Bible. That gave me my laugh for the day.”
While you are laughing off the parts of the Bible you do not want to follow please consider that the definition of the Trinity was added by men.
While studying the history of the definition of the Trinity pay extra attention to where the idea of the trinity was added into the Bible and is not the same as older versions and manuscripts.
Start here: I John 5:7-8
THE TROLL
(I am called a Troll because I keep asking you to prove that your version of Christianity is true. I believe you should treat your religions teachings and doctrine the same as you treat mine.)
Troll,
…….and your reference to First John 5:7-8 is what?
Please enlighten us. I always get a kick out of it when Mormons who degenerate the Bible want to use it to make some point.
……and again, I’d suggest you actually study the doctrine of the Trinity before you make comments. You’re the champion of Mormon ignorance.
Reading the six verses above from the LDS hymn has me thinking that these should be six more lines to the Beatle’s song entitled “Silly Love Songs.” I try to be respectful of the beliefs of our Mormon friends even though I am passionately convinced that there doctrines are rank heresy and they are anathema in the “eyes” of the living God of the universe who is incorporeal (says the Bible, the Patristic Fathers, and the seven ecumenical councils). Seriously, the above verses are silly and not worthy of serious consideration for one major reason and it is a reason that separates Christianity from Mormonism.
Those hymn writers in the Christian faith were spiritually moved and stirred with compassion for one thing: the love of the sovereign God. Do we sense that in the above verses? No, we pick up sarcastic vitriol and jabs against those Christian churches that were outspoken against the teachings of the self-proclaimed prophet, Joseph Smith. The verses drip in boo-hoo-hoo pouting because their corporeal god, apostles, prophets, and church aren’t given the right hand of fellowship by the Christian brethren who were right and correct for showing Joseph Smith the back door in 1828 after he tried to join the Methodist Church.
According to verse 2 above, the LDS have “a church not made by man”. Sure they do. It was started by Joseph Smith on April 6, 1830 in Fayette, New York with six charter members.
Mormons desperately want the label of “Christian.” Well, they could start by adding the hymn “Amazing Grace” in their hymnals. They can’t because they don’t have grace that is known in Christianity. Mormons get grace only after they have done all that they can do (2 Nephi 25:23). How much is all one can do?
I’d like to provide the cliff notes on this issue of KJV’s rendering of 1 John 5:7. This is a huge issue among “KJV-only” Christians and their particular churches (usually independent, fundamentalist Baptist churches) who only accept the KJV Bible and all other translations are seen as the work of the devil. The problem for these good-hearted folks is that they can’t decide which rendition of the KJV Bible they want to accept. The original 1611 was written in a type of English language that they would not be able to read. Just two days ago I tried to read Genesis 22 in the 1611; I started to get a headache and got dizzy after only two verses. The 1611 KJV also included the Apocrypha. Our KJV-only brethren won’t go for that and for good reason. Revisions of the KJV were in 1629, 1638, 1729, 1762 and finally with Benjamin Blayney’s 1787 edition which is still used today. However, the 1873 edition is gaining ground. There are thousands of differences between the 1611 and the 1787 version.
What’s all the fuss? Well, it’s because the translators of the KJV worked from an inferior Greek text constructed from only a few, late New Testament manuscripts. Where did these come from? I’m glad you asked. The 16th century humanist and Roman Catholic theologian, Desiderius Erasmus, is the primary source behind his publication of the Greek New Testament in 1516. This was his first edition. Many more were soon to follow in subsequent years. Erasmus used these late-dated Greek manuscripts, which were very few in number adding to the problem (not good for textual criticism), and the end product was the Textus Receptus (TR). The TR is the Greek Text that brought about the KJV Bible.
Erasmus made many blunders in his race to put out the Greek New Testament before anybody else (yes, his publisher and printer was in competition with others with the same goal). Erasmus’ most famous blunder and error came with his rendering of 1 John 5:7 = “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” This phrase in Latin is known as the “Comma Johanneum.” Erasmus’ first and second edition of his Greek New Testament didn’t include this phrase! This phrase was not inserted until the third edition in 1522! There wasn’t one Greek manuscript that Erasmus observed in his research and translation that included this rendition. He found it only in the Latin Vulgate.
Erasmus made this very clear in his “Annotations.” He was honest about it. However, he was criticized by his colleagues for this and was charged with favoring Arianism (the heresy that Mormons and JW’s are notoriously guilty of oddly enough!) if he didn’t include it in his next edition (which came in 1522). Erasmus stated that the Greek codex he was using stated that 1 John 5:7 said: “because there are three witnesses, spirit, water, and blood.” The truth of the matter is this: Earliest reference for this text in Greek manuscripts is the 14th century (Byzantine manuscripts). Early manuscripts (Alexandrian manuscripts) and the early church fathers omit it and rightfully so!
Is the Comma Johanneum a true statement? Yes! It’s an orthodox statement with a plethora of biblical merit and foundation to draw upon. However, was the insertion of this phrase into Erasmus’ third edition of his Greek New Testament in 1522 the right thing to do since it wasn’t based on older and more numerous manuscripts? No!
Here’s the problem for our Mormon friends. The doctrine of the Trinity and its acceptance is a fundamental aspect of anyone who wants to be called a “Christian.” The Mormons, JW’s, and hundreds of other groups have kicked and screamed at this doctrine. There is nothing new about this. This was the primary purpose of the Council of Constantinople of A.D. 381. There was no Mormon church at the time so none of their representatives could come to the council and add to the screaming of other heretics. Those opponents that did show up were flatly denounced and rebuked by Scripture proclaimed by the bishops with Athanasius leading the way. The Athanasian Creed was formulated and agreed upon by the bishops of the Christian Church. Those that were in rebellion or disagreement were put out of the church. That would have included the Mormons if they had been there. They were there indirectly through those heretics that pronounced the same things that Mormonism and other contemporary religious movements teach today (Arianism, Sabellianism, Tritheism, Adoptionism, etc, etc.).
The doctrine of the Trinity isn’t hinged on Erasmus’ rendition of 1 John 5:7. The Patristic Fathers along with others in the church councils of the past could read Scripture and see from the analogy of faith (the whole of Scripture – Scripture interprets Scripture) that there are three Persons who are called God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit); each Person is called God; there is only one God. Granted, it’s a mystery. Scripture cannot be denied. Only those that have been regenerated and have the true Spirit of God in their lives will ever see this in Scripture and accept it. It’s a doctrine for Christians – not unbelievers. It’s God’s highest revelation of Himself to fallen humanity.
Here’s the bigger problem for our Mormon friends. They are stuck with the Comma Johanneum and its clear rendition of a Trinitarian statement because the KJV Bible is part of their Standard Works. If they had the guts and didn’t care what the world thought of them, they could ditch the KJV Bible and come out with their own just like the JW’s did in 1950 with their New World Translation after having used the KJV Bible the first seventy-five years of their earthly existence. They didn’t like John 1:1 or 1 John 5:7. Mormons want to be called Christians just like the JW’s and others so they wave the KJV Bible in the air hoping to receive the right hand of fellowship from true Christians. It’s not going to happen.
I have often wondered why the Mormon’s don’t do away with the creedal statement of the Bible being the Word of God “so long as it is translated correctly.” Well, why don’t they correctly translate the Bible? When is that going to happen? It’s never going to happen because the Mormon leadership with their make-believe apostles and prophets know it would be the “kiss of death” if they ever ditched the KJV Bible with hopes of one day maybe becoming mainstream.
The bigger reason is that they don’t know how. It’s easy to complain and cry at General Conference about the Trinity and the Bible instead of translating a new Bible that is correct. They have a prophet. He has Joseph’s magic rock. Make it happen. They can’t. They don’t know how because Joseph Smith didn’t know Greek and Hebrew and neither do Thomas Monson and his cronies. There are 25,000 manuscripts of the New Testament out there. They need to get to work. Put up or shut up.
Parkman, I don’t know if you were asking about the hymn I posted, but if so you have completely missed the point.
Andy,
I agree with you and I think it is funny and sad at the same time when you claim Mormons should have their own version of the Bible.
As you know, they do. It is the J.S.T of the Bible and supposedly according to the D and C JS and Sidney R were COMMANDED to “Correct” the Bible and that was how we got the J.S.T of the Bible, But that would be funny if it were not so sad that the LDS dont use or trust it. And for the LDS who claim I am wrong and you do use it, I would say, You only use a few select verses as foot notes in the back of your Bible and what do you use as evidence to say, those few verses are good but the rest are untrustworthy and that is why you dont use them?
If your Prophet was commanded by God to do this, and you cannot trust it to the point you cannot use it, or claim it is corrupt and that is why the LDS church does not own the rights to it, I would ask, if God is so smart, how come He did not see that coming and figure out a way to stop that from happening, It does not make me want to follow your god if He is that weak and cannot firgure these things out.
This tells me why your prophets cannot go to him and pray for guidance and get answers to these problems.
“…….and your reference to First John 5:7-8 is what?
Please enlighten us”
At least one of you understands how parts of it were not in older copied of the Bible. Look up “Comma Johanneum”
“I try to be respectful of the beliefs of our Mormon friends…”
A ya-but statement if I have ever heard one, just look at what is said after it.
Amazing Grace- Mormon Tabernacle Choir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KBspWxLy4M
“…living God of the universe who is incorporeal (says the Bible, the Patristic Fathers, and the seven ecumenical councils).”
These were the councils where the Patristic Fathers got together and fought over what God meant in His teachings. Just like the idea of adding God to the platform was forced on the Democrats at the Democratic National Convention, the “accepted definitions” of God’s Word were forced on the people and added to the Bible.
“Is the Comma Johanneum a true statement? Yes! It’s an orthodox statement with a plethora of biblical merit and foundation to draw upon.”
The people who believed this wanted to force it upon the rest of Christendom.
“The doctrine of the Trinity and its acceptance is a fundamental aspect of anyone who wants to be called a “Christian.” “This was the primary purpose of the Council of Constantinople of A.D. 381.”
Besides affirming that the Catholic Church was God’s true Church, the Council of Constantinople in 381 was used to force a definition of God on the Bible that was not in the Bible. Many who accept the Trinity idea do not accept the Catholic Church as being God’s true Church. There is abundant evidence that “Trinitarianism”, as now understood by the majority of Protestants and Catholics was not present in the Early Christian Church.
“Mormons get grace only after they have done all that they can do (2 Nephi 25:23). How much is all one can do?”
One complaint of Mormon critics is that we have different meanings for some words. Then they “forget” to speak of the difference when telling folks what we believe and teach. Here we have an example of someone not taking into account these differences.
Through grace we, like you will be resurrected from the dead.
That is about all Trinitarian Christians know about what goes on after we die. Since Heavenly Father has started teaching us again through His Son and His Prophets, we have a better idea of what goes on after death. We are saved by grace from death and there is nothing we can do about it (just like you teach). After getting to heaven, we are judged by out works and because of the grace of God, our works are magnified.
This says it better than I can,
“Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20-22; 2 Nephi 9:6-13).
Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8-10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8-9; James 2:17-22; 2 Nephi 25:23;
Reference for last quote;
http://www.lds.org/topics/grace?lang=eng
“If they had the guts and didn’t care what the world thought of them, they could ditch the KJV Bible…”
We follow God through His Prophets; you are not a “true teacher”.
“Parkman, I don’t know if you were asking about the hymn I posted, but if so you have completely missed the point.”
Each reply has the statement it is referring to above it, except for the one you refer to. I was commenting on how the old hymn in the article was a good description of how Trinitarian Christians think and act as compared to the blessings God has restored to us in these latter days.
“It does not make me want to follow your god if He is that weak and cannot firgure these things out.”
That must mean you will only follow a god that does what you say.
THE TROLL
(I am called a Troll because I keep asking you to prove that your version of Christianity is true. I believe you should ask the same dumb questions of your religions teachings and doctrines as you ask of mine.)
Moderator stepping in here. Now that Parkman has brought comments back to the topic of the original post (the hymn), please take any continuing discussion on the topic of the Trinity back onto the BYU/Virgin Mary thread where it has been under discussion for some time; please constrain discussion on this thread to the post topic. Thanks to all.
Hi,
Were all the Mormon hymns written by Mormons? Is this hymn in the current hymnal or is it represented in the current hymnal? If not, I wonder why it was removed as it seems to encapsulate the Mormon mindset masterfully.
Just a general note here:
I notice that almost every single non-LDS on these threads seems to think they have the ability to read the minds of the LDS, as they keep commenting on our mindset, or our way of thinking, or declaring what our motivations are. I find this amusing, partly because I haven’t heard such drivel in a long time; but mainly because it shows their mindset. Which is one that will do anything to spin any topic into the most negative light possible for the LDS, regardless of the accuracy of their statements.
Speaking of the Hymn itself, I was perfectly serious in saying that everything it teaching is found in the Bible. I also realize that no non-LDS will agree with this. They have their interpretations of the Bible, which do not allow for anything contrary to their beliefs; so they will never find these doctrines, as they avoid them.
I do find fun people’s insistence that there be a systematic method in what is called Biblical exegesis. It is like applying the Scientific method to theology, and is all about man’s ability to reason and understand on his own.
Just to let people know, I have a systematic method which I employ in Biblical Exegesis. It is as follows:
“…you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask [God] if it be right, and if it is right [He] will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong”
This is the only sure way of knowing of the true meaning of scripture.
Sorry, reference for my method is Doctrine and Covenants 9: 8-9
This first line in the hymn has a multitude of problems:
The God that others worship is not the God for me,
He has no parts nor body, and cannot hear nor see,
First – the historic Christian faith believes that God created everything out of nothing and literally defined what seeing and hearing is – not only are these senses fully within His capability – He actually created the very concept of these senses. So yes – God can see and hear.
Secondly – He has no parts nor body. Wrong. God eternally has a body – He came to earth as a man, the Lord Jesus Christ. He rose from the dead and lives eternally as the God-man. The Father has no body, the Spirit has no body – but certainly the triune God does for all eternity in the person of Jesus.
My question for Mormons is – how can an exalted man see and hear everything? – how is he everywhere present? I think it is their god who does not see or hear – how can he – he’s limited to one location.
By the way, what is the name of this Hymn?
4fivesolas
He can see and hear everything through his power and influence.
Also, there are many Christian creeds that declare God has no body
(sorry)
or parts, and so this is very much in line with Christian thought, especially as it stood in the 1800’s.
Shem, that’s some points you made . While I’m not sure how far to take the burning and stupor
part still it behooves us to study the scriptures and thru prayer seek divine guidance to ascertain
the meaning of the scriptures . The Holy Spirit being the Spirit of Truth [ Jn 14:17] is more
willing to assist us as He is the one who inspired the apostles to write . A spiritual witness is
important .
Shem, This will come as no surprise to you, but I dont agree with your method of Bible study and this is why.
It simply is not taught in the Bible and as a result you need to go to other sources for the way to do it. The Bible says to Search the scriptures. not pray about them.
Also if you want to claim you prayed about them and thought about them, that leads to the next question, If everyone is doing that, then what added evidence do they have that they are right?
We have many LDS off shoot groups that cannot agree, but all claim they have JS as their prophet and they believe the BoM, the Bible and the D and C. Yet it ends their. You seem positive you are right and they are wrong, yet they believe they are right and your wrong, you can give me all the reasons your right and they are wrong, like the verse you gave a while back from the D and C, yet they can then quote the same thing and then we are back to square one. So what evidence do you have that your right and they are not? Simple repeating your right and they are wrong is not enough.
Then we have as I said, Muslims, JW’s Buddhists, and 100’s of other religions that all claim they have scriptures, Prophets, teachers, gods, leaders, etc that claim they are right and you are wrong and I’m wrong. You cannot simply say, I prayed about it and thats good enough since they all claim the same thing. You need proof and evidence, and I dont think thats a bad thing to ask since Jesus provide us with tons of it to use.
“The Bible says to Search the scriptures. not pray about them.”
I have always said that you follow the teachings of man more than what God taught in the Bible, thank you for the additional proof that I am right.
“You seem positive you are right and they are wrong, yet they believe they are right and your wrong, you can give me all the reasons your right and they are wrong, like the verse you gave a while back from the D and C, yet they can then quote the same thing and then we are back to square one. So what evidence do you have that your right and they are not?”
Way back when I was a Trinitarian Christian I asked this same question about all the Trinitarian spinoffs. When I added a personal relationship with Jesus to my questions I was lead to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. You may not want to call me a Christian because I do not follow the councils of man and accept the manmade definition of the Trinity, but you are wrong. WE ARE CHRISTIANS
“You cannot simply say, I prayed about it and thats good enough since they all claim the same thing. You need proof and evidence, and I dont think thats a bad thing to ask since Jesus provide us with tons of it to use.”
So true and contraiy to what some people like you teach, the LDS Church is open and free with not only it history, but spends a lot of time and money to bring you your own copy of things like the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Center for the Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts
http://cpart.byu.edu/
“The Center for the Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts is devoted to the recovery, study, preservation, and publication of ancient religious texts. Our primary focus is upon textual research and the development of print and electronic editions and research tools which advance the study of the Bible and its context, early Christianity, and the Christian East. Since 1997 the Center has been involved in research and preservation projects relating to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Herculaneum papyri, Syriac manuscripts from the Vatican Library, and many other texts and collections. All of these projects are characterized by a successful collaboration between traditional textual scholarship and emerging technologies.”
THE TROLL
(I am called a Troll because I keep asking you to prove that your version of Christianity is true. I believe you should ask the same dumb questions of your religions teachings and doctrines as you ask of mine.)
In the lines of the above Hymn LDS proclaimed their worship and adoration of their God;
” O’ that’s the God for me ! ” .Twenty years earlier LDS were singing of their God , but this
was another God , a God their hierarchy endorsed as, “our Father “, the God for this earth the
one they have to do with etc. and as a result of trusting the testimony of living apostles many
LDS testified of this God .The first two stanzas of this Hymn:
” WE believe in OUR God , the great Prince of His race,
The Archangel Michael,the Ancient of Days,
OUR own Father Adam , earth’s Lord, as is plain,
Who’ll counsel and fight for His children again.
We believe in His Son , Jesus Christ , who in love,
To His brethren and sisters , came down from above
To die to redeem them from death, and to teach
To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach. ”
[ Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs for the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS , 11th ed rev.
Liverpool: F.D. Richards 1856, p.375 f , cited in The Position of Adam in LDS Scripture
and Theology, p10
Adam appears to be the “God for me ” that many LDS homaged then , even to worship.
Mormon leaders still advertise the same claims of providing doctrinal clarity and unpolluted guidance because they’re in constant touch with God[ Ensign May1989 Glen Pace].
May the Mormon people examine and see if these claims are true .Matt7:15
Rick
What Bible are you reading?
James 1: 5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”
I know people like to claim that since this verse does not specifically mention scripture that it doesn’t apply, but that is all hogwash. It says to ask if we lack wisdom, and does not put any limits as to what we can ask about. For the humble, who admit that their wisdom will never be sufficient to fully understand the scriptures this promise is there, allowing them to go to God and ask for His wisdom in understanding.
Now, please show me where it tells us not to pray about scripture.
Speaking of all the other groups and stuff that you want to bring into the discussion, you are again ignoring what I have said. I never once said that the spirit witnessing to me would prove anything to you, nor should you base your faith on what others have said. A person can know the truth only by experiencing the witness of the Holy Spirit himself, and until he has this witness he does not have the truth.
I can testify that I have the truth, and declare that God has revealed such unto me. But until you seek out such a witness yourself my testimony will carry no benefit.
Rick
One other thing:
Please point out in the Bible the systematic method that Falcon refers to. Or maybe you can show me where in the Bible it lays down the four criteria you gave us in a previous thread (1. Inspired author; 2. Generally excepted; 3. Orthodox teaching; 4. High moral teachings).
You claim my method isn’t in the Bible, so please show me the method that is.
You know what? I’d kind of like to do a modern day Mormon hymn but I’d do it in some Hip Hop Rap format. I’d use some of my favorite Mormon ideas and concepts. I’d include:
*magic underwear.
*drinking caffeine i.e. cola in, coffee out.
*Kolob.
*magic rock in a tattered hat.
*blacks and the priesthood.
*polygamy especially Joseph Smith’s thirty-three wives; 14 year old girl, married women.
*Blood Atonement.
*temple recommend.
*paying 10% income entrance fee to gaining access to the temple.
*becoming a god.
*Joseph Smith’s men on the moon; Brigham Young’s men on the sun.
I could go on. I’m pretty clever. I think I could come up with some pretty good rhymes to illustrate Mormonism. Maybe even call it the Mormon Blues or something similar.
I don’t think I could out do the South Park creators who put together the smash Broadway hit “The Book of Mormon”.
Is this mocking? Well it depends on how you look at it. If it could be used to get Mormons to begin a serious investigation of their religion, I think it would be a good thing.
Check it out. It’s pure genius. It does what Mormons do which is sprinkle in just enough Christian sounding language to make it appear as a derivative of (Christianity). Since this has already been done for me I guess I won’t have to write my own song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHEqCXY2B-w
Parkman,
You keep saying your a christian and Mormons are Christians, yet you get mad when we say you are not and do not except you as one. So here are a few questions for you.
1. Why is it if RLDS, or FLDS, claim to be christian, LDS claim they are not and they are apostate, and refuse to except them?
2. Why is it if I put on an elder badge and went door to door claiming I am a member of the church of Jesus christ of latter day saints, said I was LDS, but taught I believe in Grace alone, no works, taught one God only in the form of three people, taught people I do not believe in JS, and many other things I believe, you guys would claim I cannot do that and I cannot say I am a member of the LDS church. Yet you guys teach things we dont believe or teach and you want to be called a christian. You have a double standard.
Shem you said
You know the funny thing Shem, I also have the witness of the holy Spirit, I prayed to God and asked him if JS is a true prophet of God and if the Mormon church is a true church, God spoke to me and said that JS is a false prophet and the LDS church and its teachings are an abomination in His site and they (cont)
(Cont)
are teaching a false gospel that is leading people to eternal destruction.
As far as James goes, I love it when you guys quote that, like that really proves your right, Do you know what the Bibles teaches about King Solemn? He prayed to God for wisdom and was the wisest man upon the earth, and guess what, That wisdom did nothing for Him. He was led astray and once you read the NT, The only thing Jesus ever says about him was, He was a well dressed man.
Then if you read father into Jame’s you read this,
Their is wisdom that is earthly and sensual and devilish. So wisdom does not mean truth.
Shem,
As far as falcon goes, he can speak for himself, I cannot and will not speak for him. As far as I go, I read the Bible and take it at it’s word. I understand somethings are what you would call a form of poetry or an expression, for example, When Jesus says, I am the bread of life, I know Jesus is not saying He is a real loaf of bread. Or when Jesus says, I am the door, he is not speaking of really being an oak door, or ceder or what ever type of wood you choose.
Then some things Jesus said, He goes onto explain what He means, Like when He gave the parable or the wheat and the Tares. He explained what He meant. Now in other cases, I simply take the Bible at it’s word or what the author said. Like I pointed out already, God said, I know of no other Gods and their are none before me and none after me. Yet you clearly do not like that since your church teaches you can be a god some day, so now you have to try and explain it away by saying, well the Bible mentions other gods.
But if you read what the Bible says, all these other gods the Bible mentions are false gods with no power at all. Paul even says that people take a stick, use half of it to burn for fire and the other half will be carved into an idol and it has no mouth to speak, no ears to hear, no feet to walk etc.
Then if you say, well one verse says, I called you gods. He was talking about the judges, and He was not saying gods in the sense of deity. (cont)
The judges had the power to set people free or put them to death, they had in a sense the power of life or death in their hands, so they were gods in that sense. But we both know you wont agree and tell me I am wrong.
Then As I said, I simply take the Bible at it’s word. It’s not a matter of people dont understand scripture or we cant agree, it is a matter of, they dont like what it says, so they dont agree.
Take homosexuals for example, the Bible is clear, In OT times a person would be put to death for having sex with the same sex, then in the NT, it gives a list of people who will not enter heaven, in that list, homosexuals are listed. Yet Homosexual’s dont agree with that so they teach other wise.
Or take women pastors, The Bible is clear, a women is not to teach a man or usurp authority over a man, and the Bible says, The head is Christ, then man, then women, that tells me women cannot be pastors, They can teach kids, or other women, just not be the head, yet since women dont agree, and neither do some men, they insist that is wrong.
So these are just a few examples. The Bible is clear in what it says, it really is more a matter of people dont like what it says, so they claim it really does not mean what it says and their fore that is the real issue.
The “witness of the Spirit”? One of the most mis-used, least understood religious concepts there is.
EVERY religion uses some form of the “witness of the Spirit”. “Yea”, Mormons will say. “But my witness is the REAL witness”. And they just KNOW that their witness is the REAL witness. Well I guess that’s because they want it to be.
Along with the “witness of the Spirit”, other similar religious concepts that folks use are “a Word from the Lord” and “revelation knowledge”. Sometimes people will also use, “the Lord spoke to my heart”; “I could sense the Spirit”.
Mormons have this little formula. If something makes you FEEL bad, it’s the devil. If something makes you FEEL good, it’s the Spirit.
Mormons have all kinds of built in excuses for how someone could once have a witness of the Spirit regarding Mormonism and then, once investigating the facts and looking at the evidence, don’t have that witness anymore.
The whole Mormon Missionary presentation is built on getting the prospect to begin “feeling” something. In-other-words evoke an emotion and then attribute it to the Spirit.
Mormon men like the idea of the power and authority they think they have in the Mormon priesthood. It gives them a whole lot of false confidence. Their desire is fueled. There is no greater initiator of euphoric emotion than desire. But it’s nearly impossible to talk someone out of something that they feel deeply.
God has given us His Word as a test, a standard. If a religion denigrates God’s Word, they aren’t hearing His voice.
I came across this and I thought it was a very good treatment by a former Mormon struggling for an explanation of what he thought were legitimate spiritual experiences (while a Mormon). It’s a question that folks of any religion could ask regarding the truth confirmed as a result of a “spiritual experience”. He writes:
“After discovering that Mormonism was false, many of us were left to reinterpret the “spiritual experiences” we had as Mormons, some of which were quite profound–at least that is how we viewed them at the time. Mormon friends and relatives might still insist that such experiences were literally from the “Holy Ghost,” and would have us believe that such experiences should trump both the negative facts about Mormonism, and the doubts that spring from such facts. An extreme extension of such a view provides for our eternal condemnation for turning away from such experiences, and thereby ‘denying the Holy Ghost’.
“………… I wish I had an explanation for my own Mormon ‘spiritual experiences’. Some, of course, can be explained by sheer psychological manipulation. But others cannot. Notwithstanding, I am very confident in hindsight that they did not have anything to do with the truth of Mormonism, for the simple reason that overwhelming evidence confirms that Mormonism is false.”
We had a former Mormon poster here for a time by the handle “fmelo”. This was a topic that he was very good at contributing information to because he had first hand experience with it. This experience included his stint as a Mormon Missionary. What I find is that there comes a tipping point where a Mormon has to make a decision. Believe the over-whelming evidence that Mormonism is indeed false or go with the spiritual experiences to reinforce the false notion that Mormonism is true.
So this is indeed a problem for Mormons especially those who buy into the notion of the power and authority of the priesthood. Spiritual experiences are a real mind tripping event that captures the emotions of the one having the experience. The idea that these spiritual experiences aren’t really from the Spirit of God is an (idea) that isn’t very appealing.
Spiritual experiences feel good. There’s nothing like getting the emotions involved to sell someone on the idea that they are having a first hand experience with God. To deny the legitimacy of the experience, it’s thought, is denying God.
Spiritual experiences allow false prophets the pathway to sell all sorts of aberrant and heretical ideas and doctrines. In Mormonism the idea is to set the prospect up for a spiritual experience with the BoM. The person is told to pray about the BoM, read it and God will provide a physical and emotional feeling that confirms that the BoM is true. So a person does pray, reads the BoM and something in it captures their emotions and they conclude the story is true.
Now the next steps are the real scam to hook the prospect into the cult. The prospect is told that the “feeling confirmation” can be generalized to all things Mormon. That would include Joseph Smith, the current prophet and the LDS church itself. The leaders must be followed without question. The church is true.
So if someone denys Joseph Smith as a prophet, the LDS church as being true and/or the current prophet is really the real deal, they could be on their way to outer darkness, the Mormon hell. So now we have the twin emotions of fear and intimidation at work to keep the prospect in line.
There is no substitute for the Word of God.
“[ Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs for the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS , 11th ed rev.
Liverpool: F.D. Richards 1856, p.375 f , cited in The Position of Adam in LDS Scripture
and Theology, p10
Adam appears to be the “God for me ” that many LDS homaged then , even to worship.
Mormon leaders still advertise the same claims of providing doctrinal clarity and unpolluted guidance because they’re in constant touch with God[ Ensign May1989 Glen Pace].
May the Mormon people examine and see if these claims are true .Matt7:15”
Thank goodness that the LDS Church is spending a lot of time and money making old books and manuscripts available to all of us. Besides works like the Dead Sea Scrolls, your references are available on line. These two are free for you to read, study, and decide if the LDS critics are “true teachers”.
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/MTNZ/id/25104
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/05/follow-the-prophet?lang=eng
I know you do not like the idea that men may grow to become like God, and you complain about us using different definitions for words you have already accepted your definitions for, but if you are willing to remember the differences you will learn that what LDS critics have said is just not correct.
Brigham Young id often hard to follow in his talks, he often skips around making it hard to follow his meaning. It is easy for an LDS critic to take him out of context.
“I don’t think I could out do the South Park creators who put together the smash Broadway hit “The Book of Mormon”.”
I see that you are in favor of following the false teachings of The Church of the South Park.
I’ve studied this topic in-depth because of my own orientation to the Christian Faith. As those who have been around here for a while, you know that I’m a “full Gospel” guy. That means I don’t believe that signs and wonders et. al. disappeared after the close of the Cannon of Scripture as those who have a dispensational view of the faith (believe).
I believe it when Jesus said that His disciples would receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, Acts 1:5 and Acts 1:8. I believe that possibility exists today for those who are born again by the Spirit of God. The Book of Acts is a good book to read regarding this because it provides clear contrasts between true and false signs and wonders.
It all comes down to a couple of things. First of all who is the God that a person claims is the source of their power and authority and in whose name these miraculous things are occurring? We know who the god of Mormonism is as well as the Jesus and the Spirit. It is not the God described in the Bible.
Secondly people need to realize that “spiritual experiences” can be manufactured and created out of whole cloth in the “soul” of man. There are people who have absolutely no religious orientation what-so-ever but have discovered this power that emanates from the soul of man.
To-this-end really clever folks can create an ambiance within which all kinds of fantastic happenings can occur.
Lastly it must be remembered that Joseph Smith was an occultist. He was a skilled practitioner of folk magic. He and his little band of followers had all sorts of “spiritual experiences” with their magic seer stones.
Knowing the true God allows one to discern the false spirits as in Mormonism.
falcon, given the number of people you have said to be false teachers among the Trinitarian Christians, why should we believe that your understanding is truly from the power the Holy Spirit?
Parkman,
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about regarding “Trinitarian Christians”. I’m not going to go into a whole riff on dispensational theology if that’s what you’re talking about. I consider them Christians.
Well if you want I’ll call you and give you my testimony first hand, but really all you have to do is read the Book of Acts, Ephesians chapter four and First Corinthians chapters 12, 13 and 14. It’s all laid out there. However since you’ve rejected God I don’t know if you’ll get much out of it.
Parkman , yes anyone could take B.Y. out of context , but the research I cited
was by a Mormon and he admitted just what many “critics of Mormonism ” have
been saying for a long time about this doctrine of Young’s. There is ample information
on this issue available from MRM , and other ministries for investigators to read and
decide for themselves if B.Y. was a false prophet/teacher. Matt 24:11
“I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about regarding “Trinitarian Christians”.”
You say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in the definition of the Trinity forced on the Bible by men. I say I am a non-Trinitarian Christian, unlike you who follow these teachings of men and are a Trinitarian Christian.
“There is ample information on this issue available from MRM , and other ministries for investigators to read and decide for themselves if B.Y. was a false prophet/teacher.”
Just is ample is information available at pro-LDS sites to show how mrm and others have gotten it wrong. It is good that you tell investigators to read and decide for themselves. With the help of prayers, asking questions and study lead me to found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be God’s representative on earth.
Parkman said
Well here is the problem, With the help of prayers, asking questions and study of LDS sources has lead me to the fact that JS was/is a false prophet. The LDS church is not a representative of Gods earth on church.
RICK
It is pointless to get into a debate on who has felt the spirit and who hasn’t. The simple fact is that neither side can prove themselves true, especially in a setting like this blog. I am not going to do it.
I answered a question you asked, and I answered it honestly. You have proceeded to twist my answer, and then tell me that it wasn’t an actual answer, and thus excuse your ignoring it. Maybe you can begin to see why we don’t like answering you, considering the way we are treated.
However, I will answer your questions, briefly.
Q. Why is it if RLDS, or FLDS, claim to be Christian, LDS claim they are not and they are apostate, and refuse to accept them?
A. I have never heard anyone claim these groups are not Christians. They are not part of the church of Christ as established in this day through Joseph Smith. However, as far as I know, while we declare their error, we do not deny them the right to call themselves Christians, or to claim origins with Joseph Smith.
Q. (summarized) Why can you not call yourself LDS when you teach things contrary to the gospel?
A. For the same reason that we cannot call ourselves Catholic, or Baptist, or Methodist, or Presbyterian, or any of the other thousand or so denominations that exist; and why they do not try to claim to be the same. One cannot claim to be a member of one denomination and yet teach contrary to its doctrine. But both are still Christian.
The problem here is that you are trying to use the term Christian in a much narrower way than it was intended, and now you are complaining that we won’t let you.
(continue)
Speaking of James, a like how you take things completely out of context and twist the meaning to fit your thoughts. James 1: 5 is talking about receiving wisdom from God. James 3: 15 is warning against assumed superiority of wisdom that leads to strife. These are two very different things; one to be cherished, the other to be shunned.
Now, I take the Bible for what it says as well; and James 1: 5 very clearly tells us to pray about everything. You don’t seem to be too keen on accepting what this says, though, as that would mean accepting that what I have said is found in the Bible.
Of course, we all approach the Bible from personal influence and prejudice. We read different verses of the Bible and get different meanings because we place different meanings and connotations on the words used. I have got no problem with this, which is why I like to have God explain it to me as much as possible, so that I don’t make mistakes.
Question: You claim that “It’s not a matter of people don’t understand scripture or we can’t agree, it is a matter of, they don’t like what it says, so they don’t agree.”
So, please explain how we know that you are not guilty of not liking what it says, and so disagreeing. Why should we trust your interpretation as being the right one and not someone else’s?
Oh, and since you can’t show where your four criteria are in the Bible why should we accept that those who used them to assemble the Bible were right in their selections?
Mike
Just remember that just because someone is a member does not mean they can’t things out of context as well.
Honestly, I just don’t care that much. Brigham Young didn’t enforce the idea on the saints, and so the non-LDS on the blog who are trying to do so have no real footing to stand on concerning the subject.