Mormon apostle Quentin L. Cook spoke Saturday morning (6 October 2012) at General Conference using Alma 5:26 as his text. In this Book of Mormon passage Alma asks those people who have believed in Christ and pledged to follow Him whether they still believe. To those who “have felt to sing the song of redeeming love,” Alma asks, “can ye feel so now?”
Mr. Cook posed this same question to his audience on Saturday and said that if any of them are in a “spiritual drought,” if they are angry, hurt or disillusioned, it is important to find out why they feel this way. He explained that people experiencing spiritual drought have not necessarily been involved in major sins, but have made “unwise choices” that put them in this spiritually dry place.
“Some are casual in their observance of sacred covenants,” he said. “Others spend most of their time giving first class devotion to lesser causes. Some allow intense cultural or political views to weaken their allegiance to the gospel of Jesus Christ.” With renewed emphasis, Mr. Cook continued,
“Some have immersed themselves in internet materials that magnify, exaggerate, and in some cases invent shortcomings of early Church leaders. Then they draw incorrect conclusions that can affect testimony.”
But there is a way to get out of this mess. Mr. Cook counseled, “Any who have made these choices can repent and be spiritually renewed.”
I understand the need to repent for failing to honor and keep covenants. As we’ve talked about fairly recently here on Mormon Coffee, vows made to God are not to be taken lightly. Also good advice is the suggestion that people should spend their time more wisely and not be distracted or swayed by the siren call of any given unholy cultural or political view.
Mr. Cook’s final example of an “unwise choice” was not as universally predictable. He suggested that research of the history and character of early Mormon Church leaders results in “spiritual drought” or, in other words, anger, hurt or disillusionment — a crisis of a Mormon’s faith. In order to be “spiritually renewed,” he said, anyone who has dug deeply into early Church history should repent.
This strikes me as odd given that the opening verses of Alma 5 relate the historical narrative of the “fathers” while Alma admonishes the people to “sufficiently retain [this history] in remembrance.” To be fair, a Mormon would find the history recounted in Alma 5 to be faith-promoting, not faith-challenging. Nevertheless, history should never be thought of as a threat to truth.
To compound the spiritual effect of faith-challenging history, Mormonism, as a religious system, calls for members to have faith primarily in the Church and its leaders (as the transmission vehicle of God’s power and will). Therefore, when Mormons learn of the “shortcomings” of early Church leaders, of course their testimonies are affected. They have stood in Fast and Testimony meetings countless times repeating, “I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet. I know this Church is true and is led by a living prophet today.” When they learn that Joseph Smith did not behave like a true prophet, that he fails the biblical tests of a true prophet, that the Mormon Church’s leaders did not (and do not) act as though a holy God is actually leading them, many Mormons find themselves in a crisis of faith. A professed Mormon apostle tells these disillusioned and hurting people that they can receive “spiritual renewal,” but first they must repent of seeking to know the truth.
Will this counsel allay the concerns of Mormons who are questioning the validity of the so-called inspiration of their leaders? Or will it add one more burdensome red flag to a growing collection?
My heart breaks for people who so desperately want to serve God in truth but do not know where to turn. Dear ones, to have an unshakable testimony you must invest your faith in Christ. He has no secrets, no skeletons in His closet. He is always good, always righteous, always true. He will not chastise you for questions, He will not tell you to repent for immersing yourself in seeking His truth. He is an open book, from Genesis to Revelation, and He continually calls to you, “Come unto Me!”
Amen!
There seems to be a sizable crowd of LDS would have come to realize that the claims
of their hierarchy is not what they can no longer give allegiance to, there’s to much at
stake for them personally .These members have seen the responses by apologists as to why
they should keep submitting to their leadership but all these responses have failed to provide
real answers , and hence the number of LDS becoming inactive or leaving the last few years has
been very sizable . I think some of the issues that have caused this exodus are 1. Suspicion that
their leaders have not been totally upfront with historical issues , and although Mormon leaders
have been more candid in recently, still there is questions on what is sequestered in the Church
archives and First Presidency’s vault that have not been acknowledged publicly.
2. Doctrinal clarity. For many LDS the record of what their leadership has proclaimed
as spiritual truth since being allegedly appointed by Jesus in the latter days has given them
a loss of confidence in their leaders ability to consistently feed them healthly spiritual food.
Then there’s the veiled threats that to personally question the leadership’s guidance is to open
one’self to Stan’s influence and to publicaly question it is to invite excommunication and God’s
judgement.For many LDS a busy church life and constant hearing about being moral and
good examples in the community does’t make up for following men who though they look
and act polite and kind, teach inaccurately about God or salvation or who won’t say how
much they are paid etc. Many LDS are wondering that in following their hierarchy maybe they
were detoured by men Jesus warned would do that–Matt 24:11.
WOW , who needs caffeine or a cold shower to wake them up after hard day of work, what a crazy comment by Cook.
I need help guys please for my best friend, Last Sep we both left the church., good old church history, but my dear friend is married to a Mormon, she didn’t leave the church, and treats him differently since he left, and not in a good way.
She will not talk about anything, he is fading and dying on the inside each day, and talking the D word, as a last option, he is a great man , friend, father, but he is not Mormon anymore, the sad part, she wasnt even active when they dated or married, he joined and pulled up along, now her beliefs are stronger than her actions, its sad, what can he do ?
Ironman,
All we can do is pray for them, and we will be.
Ironman, I hope your friend can focus his attention on Jesus , and realize that in situations
like this there is nothing that any mortal can do to make your friend’s wife change . Rick is
right about prayer and my wife and I will join him and others to earnestly pray for your
friend and his family .
Thanks guys, its tough seeing what i see, but sometimes Mormonism is stronger than marriage , which is sad, will keep you guys posted.
Ironman,
I wouldn’t wish that situation on anyone. He’s really stuck. Coming to know the LDS church is false and being married to someone who hasn’t is a terrible trap.
Lyndon Lamborn left the LDS church but his wife cut him a lot of slack. People at the ward kept asking her when she was going to divorce him. She had no such intention. His testimony takes about three minutes to watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng-cn6cK6GA
I don’t know where Lyndon is today in terms of his religious faith, but having read his book it seems that Mormonism did a fine job of destroying his faith, generally, in God.
That’s a sad commentary but not an unusual one for folks who come to understand that they have been lied to, deceived and made fools of.
I can’t imagine what it’s like to find out that the religious system you had trusted had, in deed, been a sham.
Thanks Falcon & Mike R, check this out just got back from doing a 5 mile run, and who do I see but my old home teacher / new Bishop, 35 mins with him, he could not answer one single question without using the word testimony over and over, I told him having faith in Jesus is like running a 5 k, easy to do, but having faith that Joseph was a prophet, is like doing a Ironman race.
Ironman,
What are “35 mins”? Were they by your house? I never get to talk first hand to real Mormons. You sure are lucky! 🙂 I was driving through down-town Mnpls. yesterday at rush hour and saw a couple of the boys on the bikes. I about drove over the median against traffic just to make contact. I restrained myself.
I live by a nice bike trail , went for a 5 mile run, and around the corner he came and talked about 35 mins, I heard the word testimony a dozen times , with little to no answer to my questions oct comments.
So 35 mins with my old home teacher who is the new Bishop , eye opening, glad I read Cooks talk before my run. Always prepared
Strong piece Sharon. Bravo and Amen!
(I’m sure some LDS won’t see it as strong and state something about TRUE history, but they’ll be right and completely wrong – good piece.)
Ironman,
I certainly feel for you and your friend; my wife became a member-in-training just a few months after we got married. It turned out she had had a history with LDS and it was never really concluded. We went through 2 or 3 years of off-and-on interaction and hopes of baptism, then about 2 years of membership. It was very difficult on me, but it also grew my trust in God, and gave me a new motivation and need from which to study Scripture and think about what I believe and how God works.
I don’t think you have explicitly stated whether your friend has kept his faith in Jesus or lost it with his faith in the LDS Church, but I certainly hope he has kept his faith in Jesus. Talking about the big D is troublesome either way. I know from personal experience (and specifically with someone who refused to talk about anything possibly critical) that it is really difficult, but that it can get better. My wife left a year ago the 27th of this month.
I would think if she was a convert that it will be more likely that she can take a step back at some point and look at things from a distance again, get some perspective, and at least reconsider the truth.
Hopefully your friend can find comfort and strength in Christ and realize that God hasn’t brought him out of the LDS Church just to leave his wife in it. This isn’t the end of his story or God’s story for them. I’m available anytime to help.
Why do Mormons think people leave the LDS church? The standard line is that the leaver: 1. Was offended by someone, 2. Has fallen into deep and serious sin. A companion LDS claim is that the leaver will fall into serious sin within a year if they hadn’t done so already.
To the Mormon, the reason someone leaves the LDS church cannot be that they found (the church) to be false; not true.
John Dehlin has an excellent presentation, as a Mormon, on why people leave the Mormon church. The reasons relate to what the leavers learn about the history, practice and doctrines of the LDS church and what they learn about Joseph Smith.
Of course for those who so desperately want to hold on to the fantasy of Mormonism a merit badge claiming stance is that, “I know all of that and it doesn’t effect my testimony one bit.” I would call it the “Whistling while walking past the graveyard” manner of thinking.
When you have life long Mormons who don’t know that Joseph Smith was a polygamous, there’s a problem. Mormonism has a lot to hide but there’s just too much information out there to continue the cover-up. That’s why when Ironman talks to his former home teacher who is now a bishop, all (the bishop) can do is parrot “testimony” over and over again. That’s a very weak approach since every religious person has a “testimony” of what they believe. In the world of debate, that’s not evidence, it’s feelings. Everyone can claim they have the truth based on personal revelation. It means something personal to the claimant, but nothing to anyone not holding the same view.
It’s very difficult for the LDS church to retain active members. There’s just too much contradictory information available to blow-apart the claims of Mormonism.
A “feeling” taken as communication from God and folded into what is known as the Mormon “testimony” is a poor substitute for facts. Mormons suppose that their claim of hearing from God makes them spiritually gifted and talented and the possessors of something very special. That’s why the fall is so hard and painful when they discover that what they have that feeling about isn’t true.
Giving up a testimony in Mormonism, in light of evidence that contradicts (the testimony), results in all sorts of contrary emotions. It’s a real bummer!
I can see why it’s very difficult for a former Mormon to trust again in God. And yet that’s the heart of the matter and the basis for salvation. A person has to trust that Jesus is the Messiah, God incarnate and that his shed blood of the cross is total payment for their sin.
But here’s the real good news. This is not religion! Securing salvation is not a matter of joining a church or trying to find the one true church. Active Mormons are really hung-up on this idea of belonging to the “one true church”. Mormonism is a religious system through which they believe they will receive a reward if they are faithful to the system.
Biblical Christianity, by contrast, is not a religious system. It’s based on a personal relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ. Mormons think that this is just too easy. It can’t be true. Surely you must have to do something to gain a promised reward. Mormons place a whole lot of faith on a bunch of religious rituals and a notion of righteous living as a formula for spiritual success.
Faith in Jesus is where we start and from which our walk in the Spirit flows.
Thanks Spartacus, my friend and myself attend a non dem churh that will spend 1 yr on the book of John, plus he studies with a bible group , our friendship is stronger with us both being out.
Ironman,
That’s good-you two will be very helpful to each other. As I said before, try to encourage him. Let him know that he’s far from alone in his situation. There were many early Christians in the Roman Empire who came to believe in Christ when they were already married and their spouse didn’t accept Christ right away. People go through this today. I know it’s made more difficult by the fact that his wife is treating him differently and “not in a good way.”
Let him know that it’s painful yes, definitely, without a doubt, but there is so much opportunity as well. He can either grow closer to God through this trial or grow cold. He can know that any mistreatment he gets from his wife is something he can take in service to and give as a gift of fidelity to God. As I said before, God has made an inroad into his family but God won’t just stop with him, he is just the beginning;God can use him, he can let God empower and lead him, to help his wife, family, and friends. But it’s going to take time and a lot of patience. I’m sure, if he thinks about it, it probably took him a lot of time to get to where he is now-even just to consider the possibility that the facts may be other than he believed as LDS. It is a tough road ahead of him, but even as you said that it was worse because he brought her into the LDS Church, this is a great opportunity he has to participate in the redemption of that mistake. God is offering the chance to get her out, and to Christ.
As for Sharon’s piece,
It reminded me of this scene in The American President, I give the larger scene instead of just the single quote for those who haven’t seen the movie:
Lewis Rothschild: “You have a deeper love of this country than any man I’ve ever known. And I want to know what it says to you that in the past seven weeks, 59% of Americans have begun to question your patriotism.”
President Andrew Shepherd: “Look, if the people want to listen to-…”
Lewis Rothschild: “They don’t have a choice! Bob Rumson is the only one doing the talking! People want leadership, Mr. President, and in the absence of genuine leadership, they’ll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership. They’re so thirsty for it they’ll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there’s no water, they’ll drink the sand. ”
President Andrew Shepherd: “Lewis, we’ve had presidents who were beloved, who couldn’t find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight. People don’t drink the sand because they’re thirsty. They drink the sand because they don’t know the difference.”
I find a lot of metaphorical meaning in this quote and scene that pertains to this post and to the LDS Church, in general. Obviously it would be from a traditional Christian view point; I’m sure that LDS will view it easily enough the other way. But the aspect of “leadership” and how much people need it (in the form of a man) is particularly striking in regards the essential structure of the LDS religion(s), and I think definitively puts this as more properly the Christian view of LDS than vice-versa. Thanks to IMDb for the quote source.
May God bless all of you with what you really need, to His Glory
Sharon,
Thanks for posting your article, as I listened to Apostle Cook’s talk I also read it. Because of you, I found a few things I needed.
Back to your post, one thing I noticed was how little of the talk was spent on what you do here at mrm. Given the bigger problems in the world, it seems like you and your friends are not much more than a minor irritation. Thanks for pointing me to that fact.
Parkman, Due to the Dumb things you say, and the facy that you cannot have an honest debate, and fell your nothing more than a troll, I guess I will say this about you. This sounds like wisdom I heard from someone.
Given the bigger problems in the world, it seems like you and your friends are not much more than a minor irritation. Thanks for pointing me to that fact.
Sharon, thanks for providing thought provoking articles . You have a heart to see the Mormon
people experience what Jesus has for them when they are free from their allegiance to their
apostles. Since there has been many LDS who have become disillusioned with these men in recent
years hopefully ministries like this one have had a small part in that . One thing is for sure :
the Mormon people are by and large a good decent people who deserve to be warned about
certain men who Jesus said would come in these latter days —Matt 24:11 ,24,25.
Wow minor irritation, umm, sure thats why he gave the talk, because we are more than that, we care, we think, we feel, we are free of the Mormon bondage.
I saw my ex Bishop for the second night in a row, and he said ” you sure look happy ” will share more of last nights talk with him.
Parkman you should just look deep into your words, rationalize and judgement about and to whatever we say.
Not much truth
Parkman,
For folks you claim are just a “minor irritation”, you sure spend a lot of time on this blog trying to counter the information we provide concerning the false religious system of Mormonism. And for a “minor irritation” the LDS church sure spends a lot of time, money and effort to attempt to counter the apologetic ministries focusing on the Mormon people.
Here’s the problem that you and your religion have (among many). People are leaving the Mormon church in droves and only about 30% to 40% of those on the rolls of the LDS church even bother to practice the religion. Now while numbers don’t prove if something is true or not true, information regarding Mormonism being readily available to (Mormons) is not helping with regard to the retention of members.
So you can bluster about “minor irritation” but the fact of the matter is MRM and other apologetic ministries to Mormons are making serious in-roads in (bringing the truth to Mormons).
Why are people leaving the Mormon church and/or becoming inactive? I would guess there are a variety of reasons among which is that Mormonism is a real drag to practice. There is a heavy load placed on the membership and for those who are on the god-track the hoop jumping is enormous. God is not served through Mormonism. Mormonism is served by those serving Mormonism.
Jesus needs to be served.
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Number-of-faithful-Mormons-rapidly-declining/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA.cspx
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/culture/5611/mormon_numbers_not_adding_up/
From the above article:
“Despite a large missionary force and a persistent emphasis on growth,” Phillips and Cragun write, “Mormons are actually treading water with respect to their per capita presence in the U.S.” In fact, additional studies by Cragun and Phillips show that retention rates of young people (young men especially) raised Mormon have dropped substantially in the last decade: from 92.6% in the 1970s–2000s to 64.4% from 2000–2010.
Positive news!
“This sounds like wisdom I heard from someone.”
Did you read Brother Cook’s article and see how small a problem you really are?
Parkman,
I’m really not a problem at all, well maybe to Satan I am, but that’s ok, if I am a problem, its only because I bring truth and light to those living in darkness.
But like falcon said, you sure do get worked up as does your church over minor problems, and so they must be bigger than you think.
If this is such a minor problem, why bring it up? I’ll tell you why. The LDS church is running scared. These sites are where those leaving Mormonism come for information that leads them out the door. The Mormon church can’t stem the tide of those leaving.
“Some have immersed themselves in internet materials that magnify, exaggerate, and in some cases invent shortcomings of early Church leaders. Then they draw incorrect conclusions that can affect testimony.”
What about those of us who truly believed we would be going to Hell if we read anything not “church approved” so we actually studied the LDS church’s own publications, such as the Journal of Discourses and the History of the Church? What about the D&C, BoM and Pearl of Great Price? All one really needs to do is look to the LDS church and what it has published. I knew it was all bs just from the Journal of Discourses. I could see exactly what kind of a man and false prophet Brigham Young was from that church publication, no internet materials needed. Mr. Cook’s remarks fall right in line with “don’t read anything not church approved” which in my mind is a clear sign of a cult. If Mormonism were true and Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc. were true prophets of God, the LDS church would be encouraging everyone to read and study their history. If I could give one piece of advice to all Mormons questioning, it would be this….. Go out, pick up a Bible not affiliated with the LDS church, sit down and ask the True and Living God of the Bible to reveal himself to you. Read, study and pray about the Bible and it becomes plain that Mormonism is in no way related to Christianity and the God of the Bible. It is not the “original” Christianity, there was no great apostasy and it is extremely sad that LDS leaders have to discourage people from seeking truth, that should be the first clue that something isn’t right.
“Mr. Cook’s remarks fall right in line with “don’t read anything not church approved” which in my mind is a clear sign of a cult.”
I did not see what you speak of, would you show me what you think ELDER Cook said to make you think that.
“If I could give one piece of advice to all Mormons questioning, it would be this….. Go out, pick up a Bible not affiliated with the LDS church, sit down and ask the True and Living God of the Bible to reveal himself to you.”
Since you teach that there is no one with the authority from God to tell you what God meant in His teachings, how is one to know that your idea of what God meant is better than any of the many other ideas of what God meant in His teachings? After all, all of you cannot be right, and with no one having authority from God to correct your mistakes, you can only find those who you agree wit and call them “true teachers”.
“Read, study and pray about the Bible and it becomes plain that Mormonism is in no way related to Christianity and the God of the Bible.”
No, it goes like this —— Read, study and pray about the Bible and it becomes plain that Mormonism is in no way related to TRINITARIAN Christianity and the God of the Bible FILTERED THROUGH THE MANMADE DEFINITION OF THE TRINITY.
Parkman,
That is the most bizarre and weird post I have ever read on Mormon Coffee. Are you alright?
It deserves a Mormon style response.
The doctrine of the Trinity was “revealed” to the Church Fathers. The Biblical Christian Church has always had apostles and prophets and when they met at General Conference at Nicaea, they clearly articulated what had been revealed (to them).
“The doctrine of the Trinity was “revealed” to the Church Fathers. The Biblical Christian Church has always had apostles and prophets and when they met at General Conference at Nicaea, they clearly articulated what had been revealed (to them).”
If the Church had the authority to receive revelation, when did the Catholic Church become the cult some of your protestant evangelist friends often describe it to be?
Knowing whom God speaks through today is one of the most important thing I can think of.
Who are the “apostles and prophets” of your Biblical Christian Church that lead you today, and how do you know they are truly apostles and prophets? I would like to check out their teachings and see if they are truly God’s representatives on the earth today.
Parkman said:
Since you teach that there is no one with the authority from God to tell you what God meant in His teachings, how is one to know that your idea of what God meant is better than any of the many other ideas of what God meant in His teachings? After all, all of you cannot be right, and with no one having authority from God to correct your mistakes, you can only find those who you agree wit and call them “true teachers”.
The Problem is:
Since mormons teach that there are a line of prophets with the authority from God to tell you what God meant in His teachings, how is one to know that the LDS idea of what God meant is better than any of the many ideas of what God meant in His teachings? After all, all of your prophets cannont be right, and with so many having authority from God to correct your mistakes but being replaced by new prophets and apostles with conflicting teachings and previous teachings being degraded as “opinion” and “folklore”, you can only find those who agree with the current prophet and apostles and call them “official LDS doctrine” and “revelation”.
And, God is not a god of confusion.
Parkman said:
Who are the “apostles and prophets” of your Biblical Christian Church that lead you today, and how do you know they are truly apostles and prophets? I would like to check out their teachings and see if they are truly God’s representatives on the earth today.
The Problem:
This is exactly what (good) Aunty’s do and ask mormons to do, with respect to their own teachers, the teachings past and present, and in comparison to the Bible.
The Next Problem:
Parkman, how are you going to “check out” and “see if they are truly God’s representatives”? By prayer? You have already prayed and learned that the LDS religion is the true one, so do you really need to pray about a teacher and teachings that contradict with the LDS religion? Or do you simply have to research and determine that they contradict with your testimony of the LDS religion?
But, then, this is the same problem for traditional Christians. They have already prayed for God to reveal the Truth to them and they have received a testimony of the Christ and the Bible. Do they really need to pray about the LDS religion that contradicts every aspect of Christ and the Bible in their testimony? Or do they just need to research and determine that they contradict with their testimony?
Point 1: Parkman ought to agree that prayer is not enough.
Point 2: LDS missionaries going around and telling traditional Christians to pray about the LDS faith are mistaken. Until LDS missionaries can show how traditional Christianity and LDS are at all compatible then they are asking traditional Christians to take a new personal revelation in contradiction to their previous revelation.
Point 3: This is confusion, not by men, but directly by the supposed ordained organization of Christ.
Spartacus,
Here are some more problems.
1. Parkland really hates it when you use is logic against him.
2. It was js who said, no man can see God and live, without the priesthood. Problem is, js saw God in 9 different first vision accounts but did not have the LDS priesthood authority at the time.
3, no place do we read in the bible where Jesus or his disaples ever say, you must have priesthood authority to ever do anything. The bible tells us to search the scriptures to know if these things are true. The bible never says, we must first have priesthood authority in order to search the scriptures to know if these things are true.
Kate, welcome to the world of Parkman and his fixation with what he calls “trinitarian” .
We’ve listened to his rant about this now apparently you are his next audience .
I have not read all the comments, and nor will I. I am simply going to make a few comments of my own.
First, Parkman is right. Elder Cook made a mention of this, and then never spoke on it again. It is a minor part of the issue he was addressing. It was sufficient effect to be mentioned, but not sufficient enough to have any kind of focus on it.
Second, the blog here does not accurately portray the intentions of Elder Cook, or even what he was talking about. Let me illustrate.
Sharon states “He suggested that research of the history and character of early Mormon Church leaders results in “spiritual drought” or, in other words, anger, hurt or disillusionment — a crisis of a Mormon’s faith.”
The problem here is that he never suggested that researching the history of the early Leaders will lead to any crisis of Faith. What he said was that giving heed to the exaggerations and, on occasion, the outright lies and of some and then basing opinions on those falsehoods is what can lead to a crisis of faith. It is not when we learn the history of the church, but when we accept the false representation of that history that we become endangers of a spiritual drought.
Sharon follows her one comment with this: “In order to be “spiritually renewed,” he said, anyone who has dug deeply into early Church history should repent.”
Again, he is not talking about “digging deeply” into church history. He is talking about accepting false representations instead of the actual history.
So, it is a sin to seek truth??? If the church is true, then there should be no fear in personal investigation. Isn’t that what Joseph Smith claimed to be doing when he had the first vision? Seeking truth. Just because I read anything on this sensitive subject does not mean that I don’t evaluate what is said for my self and use my free agency to make up my own mind. I am so tired of the supposed apostles making up their own commandments.
parkman,
I read the same article as you. It is clear to me that Mr. Cook was in a round about way, discouraging members from looking at internet sites or digging too deeply into church history. I was once LDS too. I know what I would have gotten from that. I would have taken it to mean that I best beware of studying anything not put out by the church or else I could end up in a “spiritual drought” and in need of repentance. Once again, put the blame on the members. Use the guilt card.
” Since you teach that there is no one with the authority from God to tell you what God meant..”
Wow, you pretend to know what I teach and believe, that is pretty presumptuous of you…..
Actually there is one with authority from God to tell me, his name is Jesus, ever heard of Him? Let me give you a scripture to ponder:
Hebrews 1:1-2
In these last days God speaks to us through his Son. Not a self proclaimed prophet. Tell me why I should believe your man/prophet over the other 100 Mormon sects and their man/prophet. That’s a lot of prophets claiming to be the one true Mormon church, the true followers of Joseph Smith and the church he created. LDS don’t even believe what past prophets have revealed. What Thomas Monson reveals today (IF he ever does make a revelation of course) could very well be counted as only his opinion years down the road. Where does that leave you? Hmmm…. the same place it leaves thousands who followed Brigham Young in believing Adam was God.
Mike,
“Kate, welcome to the world of Parkman and his fixation with what he calls “trinitarian” .
We’ve listened to his rant about this now apparently you are his next audience .”
Hahahaha! No I’m not his next audience, It would appear that parkman truly believes his god was once a man who walked on an earth like we do now and through his good works progressed to godhood, is a polygamist with many goddess wives who “somehow” procreate spirit children to send to this earth for bodies and in turn, those spirit children who through their good works, can obtain all of that for themselves! WHERE IS JESUS IN ANY OF THIS? 🙂 In no way does the True and Living God of the Bible portray himself this way. Poor parkman. I haven’t been home for several weeks so I haven’t been online, but I have read some of the comments the past few days and it’s clear to me that parkman is clueless and has no interest in truth. He’s just here to complain. I wonder if he used to go by the blog name Helen???
“Disillusionment” is the key word in the article.
So we can ask, why do Mormons become “disillusioned” with their church? If visiting some internet websites can throw people off the LDS cliff then I’d say Mormonism is indeed teetering on a precipice. They even have a term for it; “shaken faith syndrome”. Here’s a good article from one of my favorite websites:
http://www.mrm.org/shaken-faith-syndrome
The LDS solution to prevent “shaken faith syndrome” has been to instill a lot of fear in the faithful. This would be especially true of those who have participated in temple rituals which, at least in the past, included hand motions signifying throat slitting and bowel dissecting. If that isn’t enough, the frosting on the cake is the threat of Mormon hell, outer darkness, or a form of Mormon shunning.
Why do Mormons get “disillusioned”? I’m thinking it could be a couple of things. One the sheer drag of the religion and the recognition of the hypocrisy within the religious system. Most importantly though is the determination that the religion is just plain false. At the end of the day, a thinking Mormon won’t be able to reconcile all of the evidence that proves the religion is false. Clinging hopelessly to a testimony won’t work if there isn’t a foundation of truth on which to build that testimony.
The LDS church is really fighting a losing battle. For those who are questioning the veracity of the LDS religion, their own integrity won’t allow them to continue when they know the testimony is built on a lie.
“Once again, put the blame on the members.”
Nice try, but you cannot fool this Christian into blaming the LDS Church for things it does not do.
“In these last days God speaks to us through his Son. Not a self proclaimed prophet.”
You teach that God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are the same being. Therefore, you mustbe saying that there is no one other than God that God has given the authority to teach us today. Since God, by your definition, does not have a spokesman here on earth, you have to figure out for yourself if what you think He is saying is true. You are free to decide who is a true teacher, according to what you think God is teaching. NEVERTHELESS, you also must believe that the men who gave you the definition of the trinity were true teachers when they added the narrowing definition tothe Bible.
“…Parkman and his fixation with what he calls “trinitarian”
You say one of the big reasions I am not youir kind of Christian is because I do not believ in the manmade defintion of “Trinity”. All I am asking is for you to back up why the men who added this narrowing defination to God’s Word had the athority to do it. Did they have the athority of prophets and/or aposials? If so, why do you believ they were; if not, why do you think they were true teachers with athority to narrow what wi in the Bible?
“Tell me why I should believe your man/prophet…”
You are here to try to convince me that you follow God’s one true way, yet you spend your time telling me what a jerk I am to believe what I believe instead of teaching what you think is true.
“…thousands who followed Brigham Young in believing Adam was God.”
I will admit that Brigham Young is often hard to understand, yet you are doing one of the __________ tricks again. You complain that we say we can be like God in the hereafter, and you complain when some of the earlier Church leaders speak of those who are already returned to Heavenly Father as a god. THEN, you pull a fast switch and pretend that the words used mean the same thing as you want them to mean today. Adam, who has returned to heaven with Heavenly Father, is now a resurrected being and Brother Brigham spoke of him and others as gods, NOT AS GOD THE FATHER even though some take parts of what Brigham said out of context to prove the falsehood.
“WHERE IS JESUS IN ANY OF THIS?”
He is the onewho made it possable for our works to count for something. Without Him we would not be able to return to Father.
“…it’s clear to me that parkman is clueless and has no interest in truth.”
I would be happy to hear why you believe your religion (or whatever you are calling it these days) is the only true way to God. All I keep hearing is how wrong I am and that I need to read the Bible and decide for myself that you are a true teacher of God’s Word, even though you say that no one, including you, has authority from God to represent Him here on the Earth.
Well Parkman,
You’ve been a busy boy. I think what we need to do is have the mods start a thread specifically on the Doctrine of God, specifically the doctrine of the Trinity just for you. For someone who appears so fascinated with it, you certainly don’t know much (about it). When we Christians talk about the Mormon doctrine of God we actually have studied what the Mormon Church says about it. You on the other hand, seem to be pulling information out of left field, specifically what someone else has told you. Why don’t you get a good book from a reputable Christian source and study the doctrine first hand?
OK so what’s this:
“You teach that God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are the same being.” Really? I think you need to look that one up.
And:
“Since God, by your definition, does not have a spokesman here on earth, you have to figure out for yourself if what you think He is saying is true.”
What makes you think that God has to have a spokesman here on earth? The Catholics would differ with you since they do have a spokesman here on earth. You may also want to read Ephesians 4:11-12. That seems to be telling us that these offices are present within the Body of Christ. We also have First Corinthians 12: 4-14 which is pretty clear regarding the Body of Christ and how it functions. And finally First Corinthians 4:1 talks about the role of prophesy within the Body.
So this premise you have that there has to be this Moses figure running about in the NT Church isn’t Biblical as God has appointed individuals to full-fill roles and responsibilities within the Body.
OOPS! My last reference should have been First Corinthians 14:1.
About Jesus Parkman said:
“He is the one who made it possible for our works to count for something. Without Him we would not be able to return to Father.”
I think you need to read what the Bible says about our works. The Bible calls them dirty rags and rubbish. You’re works Parkman, count for nothing, zero, zip! Any works that those of us who place our faith, hope and trust in Jesus for our salvation do, are in gratitude for what God has done for us through Jesus Christ. We can add nothing to the finished work of Jesus on the cross. His shed blood is in total payment for our sin debt. It’s what the Father required and what only He could satisfy.
Phillippians 3:7-14.
And:
“I would be happy to hear why you believe your religion (or whatever you are calling it these days) is the only true way to God. All I keep hearing is how wrong I am and that I need to read the Bible and decide for myself that you are a true teacher of God’s Word, even though you say that no one, including you, has authority from God to represent Him here on the Earth.”
It’s not religion Parkman. It’s a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Get this idea of a representative authority sort of entity on earth out of your head. Vanquish it. It’s standing between you and God. When Jesus ascended into heaven, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit was given as God’s Gift to the Church. For those who have faith in the Lord Jesus, they are born again by the Spirit of God. The Spirit indwells the believer.
You don’t need some false prophet to lead you around by the nose.
“If the church is true, then there should be no fear in personal investigation.”
True, in the more than a half century of being in God’s Church, and even during the time I asked questions before joining the Church, I have always felt free and had no fear about asking questions. Some members have been uneasy with my questions but, except for the few times a leader would point out that I needed to investigate something else first, everyone has been happy to help me find the answers.
“The LDS church is really fighting a losing battle. For those who are questioning the veracity of the LDS religion, their own integrity won’t allow them to continue when they know the testimony is built on a lie.”
If you go to what Michael Ash said about his book instead of relying on your belief being created by a reviewer you will find that you and the rest of mrm are doing Heavenly Father’s work in helping build up his Church. He speaks of three levels of understanding history.
Level A is “…is the Sunday School version. Everything on Level A is obviously good and true and harmonious.”
Level B, as you teach it, “…On this level, everything that you thought was good and true and harmonious actually turns out to be evil and false and chaotic.”
Level C is “… the richer, more complicated version of history…, ” that “… turns out to be essentially, and profoundly, like Level A. The only cure for bad historiography is better historiography.”
http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2008-Michael-Ash.pdf
There are times when I want to take Isaiah’s advice and hide from the Lord under a rock. At those times I wish your teachings about His Church were true, but I keep finding “level c”.
“You on the other hand, seem to be pulling information out of left field, specifically what someone else has told you.”
I just return what has been told me here at mrm. Are you saying that there are “false teachers” at mrm?
”… as God has appointed individuals to full-fill roles and responsibilities within the Body.”
You bring me back to the question I had about religion when I was a Protestant Trinitarian Christian.
Which of the teachings is true, there are so many differing and often conflicting teachings?
How do you know which of “the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers” are teaching the real truth.
What makes you think that God has to have a spokesman here on earth?”
You said so! Ephesians 4:11-12
Parkman, I hesitate to reply to you because of your attitude and attempt to always divert
the conversation over to the subject of our supposedly man made definition of God ,termed
the “trinity”. You feel that certain teachers long after Jesus’ apostles taught their flock have
added they’re own definition of God to the Bible and that we here supposedly have to submit
to these men teachings etc. You are mistaken . Like it or not you are a trinitarian , since
the men who’s authority you apparently have elected to submit to have publically taught that
they alone teach the ” true trinity ” [ Pres. Charles Penrose , “Why I am a Mormon, p.8 ] .
( I understand why your leadership chooses to use the term “Godhead” rather than trinity since
that can make it easier to add another God to it , which could very well happen at next Conf.
and I believe that H.M. is the obvious choice for this addition ) .
Since you are adamant about the “authority” to teach gospel truths , you might ponder this
question : long after Jesus’ apostles preached about God , religious men , Mormon apostles
through their preaching conveyed to their flock what they believed was the real truth about
Jesus’ conception/birth —H.F. came down and took Mary and fathered a child with her —
and that the Bible was used to convince their flock of their new insight about God . Did these
men have proper authority to dispense this teaching among their flock ? Yes or No?
Now this is all I have to say on the “trinity” at this time, I want to stay on topic.
Parkman,
You are without a doubt one of the most confused individuals, Christian or Mormon, I’ve encountered. If this is what fifty years of Mormonism does to a person then I can see why people jump ship before it’s too late.
There is no salvation in any church organization or system. There is only salvation through Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Putting your confidence in a false religion and false prophets will bring you to a sad end. You have had the Gospel clearly presented to you numerous times here. Well, we’ll keep trying. Perhaps at some point you’ll get it.
I’ll pray that God lifts the confusion from your mind.
Your statements are saying that everyone gets his own confirmation of the truth of God’s word, and they have to agree with you on some core idea for them to be true Christians. All the other personal confirmations are false and of the Devil.
Parkman said
Funny how your BoM says, their are only two churchs and in simple terms, you believe yours is the true church, so that means all the rest are false. But if these 70-100 other Mormon off shoot groups all believe they are true and believe the BoM, then that means they believe your part of the church of the Devil. So we are back to square one, and that is, what evidence out side of prayer do you use?
Oh parkman. You are so “out there” with not only Christianity but Mormonism as well. Brigham Young did in fact teach that Adam is God the Father. No amount of twisting, spinning or mental gymnastics can make that go away.
“Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later!”
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 51
“How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints In regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God-…’ (Deseret News Weekly, June 18, 1873)
“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bear your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 50
(Cont.)
“Here let me state to all philosophers of every class upon earth, When you tell me that father Adam was made as we make adobies from the earth, you tell me what I deem an idle tale. When you tell me that the beasts of the field were produced in that manner, you are speaking idle words devoid of meaning. There is no such thing in all the eternities where the Gods dwell…. Adam and Eve are the parents of all pertaining to the flesh, and I would not say that they are not also the parents of our spirits.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, pp. 285, 290
“Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 51
I could go on but you are the type of person who refuses to look at or believe anything that your church doesn’t spoon feed to you. I’m not putting you down, I understand totally because I too was that type of Mormon. Nowhere does any of the teachings of Brigham Young refer to Adam just being one of the gods, he taught from the pulpit at the tabernacle that Adam is our “Father and our God and the only God with which we have to do.” You cannot twist that to mean something else, sorry. The FLDS today still believe Adam is God, Brigham Young was their prophet too.
Kate, I agree with you on Adam God.
I am sure you have seen Shem reply and know of Him. Sadly he claims Adam was not God, and in fact we are wrong, we went back and forth over this issue and Shem simply says, we dont have all the facts and are really grasping at straws.
So It’s nice to see a former hard core Mormon who knows this was taught. Also Shem mentioned the King Follet discourse, I mentioned how I find it funny, Adam God was maybe 2 pages long and Mormons insist that it was written down wrong, or transcribed incorrectly or something. Somehow we simply cannot understand that teaching and dont have enough context.
Yet they can use the KFD to support their view, and it is trustworthy enough to quote, yet Blacks never holding the priesthood, Blacks will be put to death as a law of God for marrying white people, Adam God, and many other doctrines taught by JS and BY cannot be trusted or if we quote from them, then we simply are missing something or dont have enough info, but they can quote the same person from the JoD when it is something they believe or want to use the same sources to support something they say. Dont you love how they can and do, do these things.