The September/October 2012 issue of Stand To Reason’s newsletter, Solid Ground, focuses on this question: Is Mormonism just another Christian denomination? In the author’s forward, Greg Koukl explains,
“In this month’s Solid Ground, I do what the LDS is failing to do. My aim is ‘simply to educate’ on some of the foundational differences between classical Christianity—the Christianity of the last 2000 years—and the Mormon church.
“In this article, I’m not asking if Mormonism is true. I’m only trying to determine if it’s Christian in the classical sense of the term. That’s all. Let’s get the facts clear.”
As one might imagine, the article takes a good look at theological issues. Mr. Koukl writes,
“If Mormonism is a denomination of Christianity, then everything doctrinally central to classical Christianity is also central to LDS theology, and nothing doctrinally central to LDS theology is inconsistent with classical Christianity.”
With that caveat, the article takes a look at the Mormon view of God. Using the 2011 book LDS Beliefs—A Doctrinal Reference by Robert L. Millet, Camille Fronk Olsen, Andrew C. Skinner and Brent L. Top as his reference, Greg Koukl summarizes,
“The Mormon Godhead consists of ‘three beings’ who each ‘possess all of the attributes of godliness in perfection,’ that are ‘a divine community’ sharing ‘no mystical union of substance.’ Instead, they ‘are as distinct in their persons and individualities as are any three persons in mortality.’ (263-264)
“[This] is an explicit affirmation of polytheism. Note, ‘God the first…God the second…and God the third’ are ‘separate and distinct beings.’
“To be fair, Mormonism denies this charge: ‘The LDS belief in… three beings within the Godhead… is not to say that we are polytheistic.’ (263) However, also to be fair, this assertion is hard to take seriously.”
Noting that there is nothing ambiguous about the word polytheism, Solid Ground defines it for readers: “from poly- (many) and theos (god)—is the belief in or worship of more than one god.” Yet Mormons insist that Mormonism is not polytheistic while still holding to a firm belief in (and worship of) more than one God. Mr. Koukl provides his readers with the Mormon explanation on this seeming contradiction that can be found in LDS Beliefs under the heading “Monotheism”:
“In the ultimate and final sense of the word, there is only one true and living God…. We believe in one God in that we believe in one Godhead, one divine presidency of the universe… three Gods… three beings… and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one.” (436)
Mr. Koukl urges his readers to “note the qualification” the Mormon authors use in their explanation: “Mormonism is ‘monotheistic’ in the sense that three distinct Gods comprise what was earlier referred to as one ‘divine community.’”
A theology that includes a plurality of Gods is foundational in Mormonism. Joseph Smith taught,
“I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods… [Father, Son and Holy Ghost] constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.” (History of the Church 6:474).
Brigham Young:
“How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods…” (Journal of Discourses 7:333).
Bruce McConkie:
“Three separate personages — Father, Son, and Holy Ghost — comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods” (Mormon Doctrine, 576-577).
Nevertheless, Mr. McConkie insisted, “The saints are not polytheists” (Mormon Doctrine, 579).
Greg Koukl concludes,
“A belief in multiple, distinct gods is polytheistic, even if the LDS refuses to call it that. Religious groups are free to define their own beliefs. They are not free to redefine the English language.”
Sixteen years ago when interviewed by the San Francisco Chronicle, BYU professor (emeritus) Truman Madsen was refreshingly candid on the subject:
“People tell us, ‘You don’t believe in one God; you believe in three Gods.’ And the answer is, ‘Yes, we do.’ If that is polytheism then we are.” (“150-Year- Old Debate: Are Mormons `Really Christian’? San Francisco Chronicle, April 8, 1996).
Yes, Dr. Madsen, that is polytheism. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion and is therefore theologically inconsistent with classical Christianity.
“That’s why there are so many different sects of Mormonism with competing and contradictory narratives.”
If you are saying that this proves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be false, then the many different sects of Protestantism prove them wrong also. After all, every one of them is based on someone’s teachings and doctrine that is contradictory to the one they are breaking away from.
“Joseph Smith’s legacy is this religious/spiritual creativity.”
If you are referring to how the different versions of the First Vision do not say the very same thing in each and every one of them, my grandfather, who was not a Mormon and was involved with law inforcement , would say that the differences would be proof that they were true. You see, if someone repeats something over and over in the same way it is an indicator that it is an untrue answer that has been rehearsed to keep the facts straight. The different versions of the First Vision are in response to the different situations that it was talked about and only the parts of the Vision that applied to the needs of that situation at that particular time were the facts that were spoken of.
Parkman, You really are not very smart and really so badly want to believe a lie, And only God knows why.
I have friends that in law enforcement also, Their is a difference between people scripting their story and some minor changes. But this idea doe not apply to the first vision for a few reasons.
When it comes to the first vision, we have JS saying he was 14, then 15 then 16 then 17.
So how can he change is age four times and still be correct?
Then he claims he saw no one, only heard a voice, then he claims he saw God the father only, then He saw Jesus only, then he saw God and Jesus together, then it was One angel, then Many angels.
How can all this make sense and still be true? Simply put, It’s not true and you want to believe what you want to believe.
I recently picked this up off of another blog and it expressed an idea that I’ve been thinking about for some time.
“Mormonism is an intensive religion, and there is only limited demand for intensive religions like Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witness, and Seventh-Day Adventist. Only a relatively small percentage of the population is willing to dedicate their whole lives to a religion………….Exponential growth can only happen when there is no competition, and the Church faces competition for new members from other intensive religions like the JW who compete for the same “customers.” ……………..The fact is that Mormonism’s “brand” just doesn’t appeal to that many potential “customers.” I don’t think that the Church could broaden its brand to appeal to a larger number of people without disaffecting the current true believers. The Church would have to make major changes, but I don’t know what they would be.”
What the author of this piece is concentrating on is what I refer to as the grind of the Mormon religious system. The number of people on the rolls of the Mormon church who are inactive sits at about two-thirds. Who knows how many of the remaining third are full-blown “temple Mormons” but my guess is that it’s a fairly small number. Beyond that, even at the Ward level, the expectations for the average Mormon is pretty intense.
Now consider the MM job of selling the Mormon narrative to a prospect. With the availability of information on the internet of information on the history, beliefs and practices of the Mormon church, the sect has a formidable task (to convert prospects).
Take our current topic. Who’s going to buy into Mormon polytheism? What Mormons have to count on is selling the religion on an emotional level and hope the love bombing will “take” before the prospect walks away.
Rick,
You, as usual, are right on the money.
Joseph Smith “evolved” and called it revelation. Take his foray into polytheism for example or his incorporation of Free Masonry rituals into his temple ceremonies, or polygamy for that matter. It seems that every time there was a crisis in Smith’s leadership, he’d come-up with a new version of his first vision narrative. Interestingly enough, his story sounds a lot like Charles Finney’s with Smith’s own adaptations.
Tell me this, how can someone have a revelation holding to the traditional Christian view of the nature of God and then get new revelations that don’t agree with his original revelation? What intrigues me are all of the fantastic explanations Mormons can come up with which allows them to continue to believe that which is clearly false.
This is the face of the spirit of deception. The clincher is that these folks are absolutely convinced by these lame explanations. We just shake our heads at their gullibility and yet they sincerely believe they are super spiritual and have deep (spiritual) understanding.
There are all sorts of groups emerging peopled by Mormons who are in transition out of the Mormon system. Unfortunately Mormonism has so poisoned their minds that they don’t want anything to do with any religion.
Falcon asks the question : ” Who’s going to buy into Mormon Polytheism ? ”
Answer: very few will unless it is presented in a way that softens the connotation of that term.
To advertise as Jesus’ N.T. church and the gospel preached by His apostles now restored by
a man claiming to be God’s mouthpiece in these latter days , as Mormonism advertises , then
to present that message you have to present it in a certain manner . So instead of “polytheism”,
” plurality of Gods” might be used , but that might be to bold for many people to accept so it
will help to constantly refer to verses in the Bible that speak of ” one God” or “Godhead” and
stress that , but once it is mentioned that there are three separate Gods that comprise that
“one God” then care must be utilized in not readily mentioning that none of these Gods has
always been God or that the older of the three even submits to a celestial Being who has been
a God longer than Him , or that two of these three Gods have multiples wives that exist as
Goddesses at their side . All this “unique” belief about God coming from men who have claimed
to have been given the exclusive ability to reveal the mind and will of God to mankind for
these latter days . But thankfully Jesus warned us in advance of such men—Mark 13:22-23 .
So are Mormons Polytheists or not ? All I know is that given Jesus’ warning people would be
safer to stick with Biblical prophets/apostles rather than the prophets/apostles of Mormonism.
I am puzzled because I see a renewal of old arguments which is good because I believe the church got it wrong the first time. I see an argument of tri-theism both ways. One is taking one being and making three Gods from it and the other is saying there are three separate beings in the Godhead. If I remember right even the muslims say the trinity as polytheist.
Clyde, if you remember right ? Can you remember to look at those who did “get it right” ?
These were not the Muslims , there’s a source more authoritative , namely the apostles
of Jesus Christ . I think that’s the safe place to anchor our beliefs don’t you ?
parkman
“I would dare to say that whatever kind of worship group or church you belong to there is something along the lines of a Junior Sunday School.’
Now I can’t speak for everyone, but in my experience, my Christian church teaches right from the Bible. Even the hard stuff. My Pastor teaches us all, including children, for the first hour of Church. The Youth does go into a Sunday School class and according to my son, they teach Bible lessons. The lessons in the Bible are right there in black and white for anyone to see. There is no whitewashing or covering up in my experience. There is no “getting them up to speed with the rest of us” so to speak. We also have Bible study classes for all ages. We have a new believer’s Bible study that the Pastor teaches one evening a week. I attended this when I first converted. He taught lessons out of the Bible and we studied what is called “The Roman Road.” There is no need to lie or deceive. That is a stark contrast to the Mormon Missionaries. I couldn’t even get them to be honest about who their god is. There’s something wrong with that.
Mike
Let me try to clarify what I meant.
In regards to understand the similarities between the Godhead and the Trinity compare it to the US Congress, as I mentioned.
By definition the United States has one congress that passes the laws that govern our nation. This is a single entity.
However, in describing the congress we know that it consists of 100 senators and 438 representatives. This is a plurality of beings.
So, to use Trinitarian language: The congress is a single entity, but exists in 538 parts, all being the same essence, or entity, but still being distinct.
To use the LDS language of the Godhead: The congress is a single entity, but consists of 538 separate and distinct individuals.
Thus both are describing the same basic thing, but one is striving to keep the singularity of the definition in the explanation, while the other is not, and thus the second is less confusing.
Speaking of our worship of the Godhead, at this point let us turn our comparison to the Presidency. We all acknowledge the authority of all the member of the cabinet, but at the same time recognize that the President is the supreme authority over all of them. So, while we submit to the cabinet members, we still hold only one to be supreme.
Kyly
Proverbs 30: 5; Isaiah 46: 10; Job 42: 2
I have no argument with any of these verses. What God speaks is true, and his purposes will all be fulfilled. However, these verses make no reference to the written record of his words and purposes, and that is the issue. The LDS do not deny anything that God actually said, only that the record of his words is not entirely accurate.
Now, concerning 2 Timothy 3: 16, I again agree completely, which is why I read the Bible just as often as I read the Book of Mormon; it is scripture and good for all the purposes listed, even though it has not been preserved perfectly. (I think Ralph addressed this)
In regards to this, let me ask you a question: It states in 1 Corinthians 5: 9 that Paul wrote an earlier epistle to them that we no longer have. In 15: 29 Paul mentions baptism for the dead. Suppose that his missing epistle contained a discourse of this subject, declaring it to be part of the Gospel. Suppose that said epistle was discovered and authenticated in the modern day. Would you accept it as scripture and believe the doctrine?
Shem, You guys can reject the trinity all you what, and just because the Bible never uses the word does not make it false.
I cannot provide all the verse or chapters that we see the trinity in since this subject is not about the trinity, But we see Jesus telling the Jews that He is God, Not a god. The Jews fully understood Jesus was claiming to be God not a god. We see Jesus telling the Jews, Before Abraham was, I AM. Do you understand that when Moses meet God in the burning bush, Moses said, who will I say sent me?
God said to moses, tell them, I AM sent you. Them Jesus claims to be that I AM of the Burning bush, The Jews fully understood that Jesus was claiming to be the voice of the burning bush, Jesus was claiming to be that voice and saying He was/is God. Not a friend of that bush, or knew the guy who voiced himself to Moses but IS GOD. I know your blind and dont care, but thats just one of many.
Rick
I know you’re blind and don’t care cause you don’t see things the way I do. There is a God out there who is going to judge us by our works. What we believe about Him might be secondary.
Clyde,
LDS claim that Christianity was restored through JS. Yet their is ZERO evidence from History that this is the case. As I said before The BoM claims that Nephi lived in Jerusalem, And I have been to Israel and they claim they know ZERO about the BoM and their is ZERO evidence the BoM is real.
That alone tells me you choose to believe in fairy tales. Now if you can prove the BoM existed before JS by hundreds or thousands of years then we will have something to talk about, otherwise you are back to zero evidence.
Clyde –
When you say “There is a God out there who is going to judge us by our works. What we believe about Him might be secondary” you have it exactly backwards. Everyone who came to Jesus who thought they were justified by their works, Jesus cut them down, and revealed their sin and how far from God they truly were. On the other hand, to all those who said to Jesus “Lord, have mercy on me a sinner” – Jesus brought mercy, forgiveness, and salvation. So, if you think you’re working to gain your own salvation Jesus has some harsh words for you. But if you fall on your knees before the Lord (acknowledging Jesus is God and brings mercy and forgiveness) you can know for certain that you are forgiven and saved. It’s that simple – it’s not about you, it’s about Jesus dying and rising for you.
I think the LDS charge that the doctrine of the Trinity can’t be true because the word (Trinity) doesn’t appear in the Bible is their weakest and, quite frankly, lamest argument.
Help me out here. How much of Mormonism is in the Bible? How much of Mormonism is in the BoM? The drum I keep beating; how much of Mormonism being apart of first century Christianity is there any evidence for in the Bible, the writing of the Church Fathers, the traditions of the Church and even the writings of the heretics?
How much evidence exists that there are multiple gods in the universe, all of whom were at one time sinful men, who by practicing Mormonism (as presented by the Utah Mormons), became gods? Is this doctrine in the Bible? Is it in the BoM?
Does the word “Kolob” appear in the Bible? Does it appear in the BoM?
Finally, how much evidence is there to support the notion that a band of Jews got into some magic boats, traveled to the Americas where they founded a vast civilization and became the ancestors of the American Indians?
So Mormons, don’t talk to me about the word Trinity. It’s a word that’s all. A word the Church Fathers used to describe the nature of God as He is clearly presented in the Bible.
The Utah Mormons have a problem wrapping their brains around the Trinity but are fully on board with the idea that a sinful man became a god and along with his multiple wives procreated spirit off spring one of which was Jesus. This all happened somewhere out in the universe, on or near the planet Kolob. Now there’s a concept that’s easy to grasp and doesn’t need any Scriptural support.
Sorry for the wait, I have been doing a lot of late shifts and over time. It is now after 2 in the morning and I have to get up at 7 but I won’t be able to get back onto the computer until Saturday so I will try and answer some of the questions now.
MikeR,
Jesus taught the God of the OT and the Jewish religion. They always believed God to be Unitary (ie single only) not trinity (ie 3 in 1 and 1 in 3). In Mark 12:28-34 He recited the Schema Israel in answer to a question from a scribe. When the scribe agreed with Jesus’ description of God, Jesus did not make any other changes to the description to clarify it. In none of the words of Jesus we have is there anything remotely alluding to or explicitly stating a Trinity, only a belief in the God of the Jews, who was unitary. This is one reason why the Jews see the Trinitarian Christian religion as polytheistic. So Jesus was saying to the Jews, I believe in the same God you do. But then you say that Jesus not explicitly describe the “Trinity”, He also never fully disclosed other important doctrines. So you’re agreeing that He did not teach the Trinity to people, amongst other things. You then go on to say that these were revealed by His apostles after His resurrection. So that is why I stated that it appears you’re saying Jesus taught one thing but changed it later through other people. The old bait and switch as Falcon would put it.
MikeR,
Now onto revelation – in past blogs on MC, many have used Hebrews 1:1-2 to prove to us LDS that we do not need any more prophets as Jesus is now the one who gives the true believers the revelations and inspirations necessary to interpret/understand scripture. Now if this is true and Paul’s audience in Hebrews 1 was his current congregation, then according to the people on MC who want to use this scripture, then we can only use Jesus’ teachings, which are found in the Gospels. Some of the MC posters have even said that while Jesus was on this earth He taught everything necessary for us and our salvation. If knowledge of the Trinity and its composition is necessary for our salvation, why didn’t Jesus teach it explicitly? Why didn’t He fully [disclose] other important doctrines while on this earth if He was the final prophet, if we take what other posters on MC interpret this scripture to mean? Or are you saying that Jesus taught MILK before MEAT, with Him teaching the MILK while on this earth and His apostles teaching the MEAT after?
Now as far as what I said to SR about corruption of the Biblical text, firstly it was to Kylyo21. He uses verses from the Bible to show that it is totally uncorrupted. Although you can agree that the copies we have today are not 100% perfect, it appears that Kylyo thinks they are because of the scriptures he has used. I was just showing to him that it is corrupted. Although I use an atheist site, a true fact is a true fact regardless of from where it comes.
4fivesolas,
I know there are some racial/ethical (what ever the word is) Jews that have converted to Christianity, to Trinitarian Christianity, LDS Christianity and even JW Christianity. When I was speaking I was talking about the Jews following the traditional Jewish religions, which ever sect they belong to. None of them believe that Jesus is the Son of God and our Saviour and Redeemer, so that denies them the title of Christian.
SR,
I know you said nothing about the Trinity, but I was making the point that neither do Peter or Jesus in the verses you reference. If the criterion for Christian is the testimony that Peter gave Jesus right there and then, that Jesus is The Christ of God, then can I be classed as Christian, because that is what I affirm. What you go on to ask after that is asking for more details outside the scope of what Peter answered and Jesus accepted. To define what the Christ of God is – it means the Chosen/Anointed one of God; or the Messiah of God.
If Jesus is “the Christ of God” then how can He be The God? He can be A God as well as the Christ of The God, which is what I believe, but He cannot be the Christ of Himself. (see above for the definition of Christ)
Is He divine? Hell yes.
Is he God made flesh to walk among us? No, but He is a God that came down to walk among us sent by His Father and His God and our Father and our God as the Bible teaches.
Ralph, I’m about ready to go over to my Mom’s house for Thanksgiving dinner so I’ll be
brief. You still need to grasp the point that Jesus did not fully reveal certain doctrines
while He was on the earth , His apostles finished what He began . One of these doctrines
was what we call the Trinity . What Jesus revealed to the Jews was radical enough —Jn 8:58,
Matt 28:18-20 , but it was only a part of what was later elaborated more fully by those men He
had personally mentored to be His teachers after He ascended to Heaven .
As far as Heb.1:1-2 is concerned , the time had arrived what all the prophets in the past had
sought and looked forward to —the Messiah had come , so no more O.T. prophets , the prophet
to end all prophets had come . The New Testament Epistles refers to ” prophets ” but not the
type of arrangement we see in the Mormon Church of one man at the top who alone is the
mouthpiece of God . By the way , there s nothing wrong with “milk before meat” . Lastly, I
hope you’re not trying to say that the New Testament scriptures are’nt reliable testimony
to us concerning the important truths about Jesus that are necessary for salvation , because
if so then you’d be wrong . A person can be saved , receive eternal life , with their opening
of the Bible and embracing what Jesus and His apostles taught .
Shem, you said, ” Speaking of our worship of the Godhead, at this point let us turn our
comparison to the Presidency .We all acknowledge the authority of all the members of the
Cabinet , but at the same time recognize that the President is the supreme authority over all
of them . So while we submit to the cabinet members, we still hold only one to be supreme.”
When you use a phase like , ” our worship of the Godhead ” that implies all three are of equal
quality/worthiness and therefore could be worshiped directly as individuals . Yet you’ve
already stated that this Godhead of yours consists of three separate Beings , each a separate God ,
but of these three you worship only one —the Father . It’s one thing to “revere” or “submit ” to
the others , but you only specifically worship the Father because He’s the supreme authority .
That’s what I hear you saying . While that scenario may be true with your “presidency vrs
cabinet members ” analogy , it fails to fully represent what the Bible reveals about God .
The Bible teaches a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the Way to the Father , and this
involves the direct worship of Jesus Himself. So while Jesus can be ” revered” that falls
short of the Father’s will for mankind concerning His Son . It’s disheartening to read in
Mormon church curriculum that Heavenly Father is the one absolute Being that LDS are to
worship , because that means that Jesus is’nt to be worshiped ,and even though some Mormons
might say they “revere” Him or worship Him “in a sense” , a personal relationship should entail
more.
So Ralph, you got my point, if you define Jews as those who don’t believe in the Trinity, then saying Jews don’t believe in the Trinity is a meaningless statement.
Jesus breathed on the apostles and promised that He would bring everything to their remembrance. They are the last to write Scripture.
The doctrine of the Trinity provides understanding in a shortened form to what is revealed in Scripture. Christians affirm the Shema (Hear O Israel, the Lord Our God, the Lord is One) and the three persons of the Trinity – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This doctrine in some ways is a mystery – but we are talking about God – Creator Ex Nihilo of everything – the very One who gives meaning and defines and holds together physical reality. Who are we to question what He has revealed in Holy Scripture? God affirms repeatedly that there is only one true God. There are no other true gods. Scripture also teaches that the person of the Father, the person of the Son, and the person of the Holy Spirit are God. In the Bible we see Jesus was clearly worshipped, and He did not rebuke those who bowed before Him. There is no escaping the Trinity. Nothing else stands the test of Scripture. Scripture teaches that we are to worship this one true God alone.
Scripture does not affirm having three gods for earthling’s worship as a part of a mythic council of gods.
I am still waiting to hear what your source document research has revealed about the reliability of the Book of Mormon? There are source documents I am sure, one I know – the KJV Bible.
Mormonism is built on a number of false premises, faulty assumptions and a ton of totally misunderstood if even awareness of the historical record.
Number one is the false premise of the great apostasy. In-other-words after the death of the apostles the gospel disappeared from the earth. Who says? Now the evidence that is put forth by Mormons is the Council of Nicea which confirmed the orthodoxy of what the Church taught. The Bishops of the Church safe guarded what was taught by the apostles. In fact the saying went, “where the Bishops are so is the Church”.
Which brings us to false premise number two; the need for a prophet, one man, to speak to the people for God. At Pentecost God sent His Holy Spirit as the Gift to the Church to indwell all believers and guide (the Church). The idea of one man, a sort of Moses figure, to hear from God and pass it on to the people is not the NT pattern. There were people, men and women, both who are called prophets in the Book of Acts and other NT writings because they have been given by the Holy Spirit, the gift of prophesy. Those exercising this gift build up the body of believers and speak in a voice consistent with the revelation given to the Church.
The Holy Spirit indwells believers in Jesus and is thus in the Church guiding the elect. The Holy Spirit never exited the Church nor the believers in Jesus. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are as evident today as they were in the first century church.
One of the many flaws of Mormonism is what it has spawned a plethora of false prophets who have emerged in the various sects of Mormonism each claiming to speak for God.
Falcon,
Here are more things to think about. This is sort of a recap of various replys under various topics.
Me and Shem were talking, He said to me, so Rick I see you have no answer for my questions, I guess that means you cannot answer me. Like I said to him, I can only tell them or anyone what the Bible says, Unlike Mormons who are never short on answers because they tend to make up stuff that sounds good, I wont do that.
I pointed out to Shem one problem I had is changing the word Blacks turning white, was changed to Blacks will turn pure. Shem try’s to say, Thats just an updating of the language, wow, so the most correct book on earth, and the Book that can bring us closer to God than any other book needs an updating in the language with less than 200 years after being printed. Funny how that works.
To me this is an issue since I have asked many Mormons in person about this and no one has ever given me a reason for the change, them behold a miracle, Shem has an answer, yet as near as I can tell, this is simply his version of events since their is no record or teaching in the church that this is the reason.
No Prophet or president stated this change and has documented it in any book. That explain why other mormons never had an answer for this. Then the issue of archaeology, Many LDS have told me, no evidence has yet been found because mormon history is around 200 years, VS 1000’s of years for the Bible. Funny how that can be the case since the BoM records the nephite people living in Jerusalem 600 bc. (Cont)
Why is it they lived 600 BC and their is no recorded evidence in History outside of the BoM? I have been to Israel as well as Many on this blog, and many people in General, yet no Jew that I ever spoke with have mentioned any BoM people.
Reformed Egyptian language does not exist, no evidence what so ever, yet this does not bother Mormons, and they even claim it does exist yet since we would not believe it, why bother providing it.
Then with the issue of the great apostasy, Funny how John and his 3 friends are alive to walk the earth, so it cannot be a total apostasy if they are alive, so how do you get around this issue? Well I believe it was Shem that said, they were removed from the earth, but the problem is the BoM claims they are to be alive and stay on the earth till Jesus returns. But please people, lets not bother with facts and reason, lets tell people they are wrong because they dont have the LDS understanding.
They the issue of the trinity, Lets see, as I pointed out, God told Moses, I AM sent you, Jesus said before Abraham was I AM, the Jews new Jesus just said, He was God, Jesus said He was that I AM that spoke to Moses, yet LDS would rather believe JS over Jesus and history and facts. Thats sad.
These are but a few of the problems,
There seems to be this unanswered question in Mormonism as to whether or not the gods are still progressing or if when a Mormon becomes a god, he has completed the cycle and now has all wisdom, knowledge and power.
The god of this planet, it seems, is a somewhat limited god. Limited to the rules and principles that govern god operations. It must be remembered also that in Mormonism there is a Heavenly Father god, a Jesus god, a Holy Ghost god and then an entity called the Holy Spirit who has been likened to a force like electricity. And Mormons maligned the doctrine of the Trinity? At least there’s a Biblical foundation with the support of the Church Fathers regarding the doctrine of God. With Mormonism it’s pretty much a grab an idea out of thin air, go with it, and say its been revealed by the Mormon god.
I always figured that Mormons would be a little curious about who the head Mormon god is, the first one, in the pantheon of Mormon gods. There’s got to be a first Mormon god who, if the progression theory is correct, really has a lock on all of this Mormon wisdom and knowledge. I don’t know if the average Mormon has access to this first god but you’d think that the Mormon god of this world might have some access to the head god and could sort of run interference for the average Mormon to get tapped into the ultimate knowing.
Mormonism falls apart pretty quickly under close questioning and not even real intense scrutiny. A religion based on an individual having a feeling “confirmation” as truth, something they desire to believe in the first place, isn’t going to hold-up real well to examination.
Ignorance is bliss. The Mormon Motto.
I know we get a number of Mormons who are questioning Mormonism and there’s no better place to start than with the Mormon doctrine of progression. That is, that men can, by following the dictates of Mormonism, progress to become a god. Here’s just a few verses of what the Bible tells us about God.
“I am he; before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Savior.” Isa. 43:10-11
“I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God….is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isa. 44:6 & 8
“To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?…for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.” Isa. 46:5 & 9
“I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another.” Isa. 42:8
This is what God says about Himself. I think that should be taken into consideration; what God says about who He is. Men can come forth with all sorts of personal revelations about who they think God is, but it’s best to listen to the source, God Himself.
The apostle John made it quite clear in the very first sentence of his Gospel message when he said, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God”. Not a lot to quibble about here. The Jehovah Witnesses wanted Jesus to be a created being so they saw fit to inject the article “a” before god and in the process doing damage to the Biblical text and the person of Jesus.
MikeR
Sorry it’s taken so long to get back to you. Holiday, children and what not.
Thank’s for your prayers. Know that I pray for you and all my friends here that The Lord will continue to show you the truth of his word and his plan for your life.
After reading the articles Sharon cited, as well a others from LDS.org and reading scripture I believe my initial understanding of the Lds view that Jesus’ co-equal but willingly subservient state to the Father leads to all worship of the Son being another form of worshipping the Father is the correct understanding of Lds theology.
The key to this comes from the description of the fall of Lucifer found in Moses 4 (note, I usually stick to the Bible for quotes since we both believe it to be scripture, but since this is a discussion of Lds theology I feel other Lds scripture are appropriate).
After Lucifer purposes to God his plan for salvation Jesus, who has already been chosen from the beginning says
“Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.” Moses 4:2
Jesus makes the point not only of the subservience of his will, but that all glory will not be his, but the fathers.
I have more but my phone is about to die. Hopefully that’s enough to clear things up for now, I’ll post the rest later.
MikeR (cont)
And I’m back.
As I was saying before, Moses 4:2 clearly showed that the Lds understanding of the relationship between the Father and Son is of a subordinate nature not only of will but of glory. Jesus has willingly given the glory that he rightfully deserves to the Father. Therefore any glorying of the Son glorifies the Father. Any worship of the Son is worship of the Father according to Lds theology. That is what we mean when we say we worship the Father through the Son. There is no God worshiped other than the Father.
That’s not to say Jesus isn’t worthy of worship. If he wasn’t then he would have no glory to give to the Father. Jesus has all the divine attributes, and had them before his mortal life, something no other person that has lived on this earth could accomplish. He died for our aim and was resurrected, the only person that will ever live on this earth capable of doing so on our behalf. He is our mediator and only through him can we be saved. He is absolutely worthy of our worship, which makes it even more amazing that he has given all of that to the Father.
That’s not to say that a personal relationship with Jesus isn’t absolutely paramount to the Lds. There are many scriptures that I could cite that make that make this case, both in the Bible and other specifically Lds works. And as a former anti-christian I know just what it means to not have that relationship with him. I celebrate every day that I have the honor to know Christ, and that I am saved. It is the most fundamental part of Lds theology, and the most amazing thing we can know.
TjayT, I hope you had a great time with your family yesterday at Thanksgiving , I did as well.
It was a good day . Much of what you said in your last post was correct . I hope that I can
articulate as clearly what I believe about this topic as you did yours. When it comes to
experiencing a healthy relationship with God we need to know what the Bible teaches about
Jesus , especially His identity , since He is the Way to the Father and eternal life —Jn 14:6.
This is so important even Mormon authorities agree that a correct understanding of God’s
and Jesus’ identity ,attributes etc . is necessary for salvation since a false belief about God
or Jesus results in following a false God , a counterfeit, thus resulting in people being detoured
from receiving salvation ( compare Jn 8:24; Gal.4:8 ; 1Jn 4:1-3 ). This is a foundation to work
from in discussing a “relationship with Jesus ” or similar phrases. Now I have to be careful here
because I can’t judge your heart , but I feel that what I can say is that while the phrases you use
are fine I feel that the edge has been taken off of what the Bible reveals about them by Mormon
authorities, and thus you can be short changed in the process of fully understanding what kind
of a relationship with Jesus Christ is available to you , and anyone . You are correct when you
stated that Jesus is co-equal with the Father and yet subservient to Him , also that Jesus is
worthy of worship [ cont]
cont.
In looking at how far Jesus humbled Himself ( Isa.53 ; Phil 2:6-9 ) to come and live among men
and seeing some of the things He said while in this humble state ( Jn 14:28 ; Matt 4:4) has
caused some people to miss out on what the Bible also reveals : Jesus shares honors due God ;
Jesus shares the attributes of God ; Jesus shares the names of God ; Jesus shares the deeds that
God does; Jesus shares the seat of God’s throne. Jesus was worshiped as the One True God ,
Jehovah of the O.T. thus we see Him receiving worship in the N.T. and TjayT this was His ,
He did’nt pass it all along to His Father as if He shoul’nt or could’nt claim and possess it of
Himself , He never refused direct worship of Himself . The Father was indeed glorified by this
conduct by those who followed Jesus because they treated His Son the same as He , the Father ,
desired to be treated . So when you state that only the Father is the God to be worshiped , that is
missing the point of who Jesus is . It’s disheartening to read where Mormon authorities
have taught the sole object of their worship is the Father , this relegates homage towards Jesus
down to some lesser quality , but the Bible reveals otherwise . Let me close this out by giving
you my testimony about a personal relationship with Jesus : I worship Him, love Him,
confide in Him ,praise Him, ask Him, follow Him, live for Him , all of this is direct behavior to
Him and the same is rendered to the Father , thru the ministry of the Holy Ghost.
cont
cont.
You said that ” we worship the Father through the Son .” Please don’t be misled in seeing
the full truth about worshiping Jesus because of the word ” through” . Just as the Father ‘s
will is for the angels to directly worship His Son , so also we are to worship Him .
It is this great arrangement that the Father has made available for us to come to the person of His
Son by personal interaction , only then He will consent to receive our praise and worship toward
Himself. This is all ” through ” Jesus because it starts with Jesus , happens because of Jesus ,
and does’nt continue without Jesus .
I hope you can see that a “personal ” relationship with Jesus Christ entails direct interaction with
Him , that He rightly shares the glory and worship rendered His Father and as such is to be
praised along side Him forever , this is the Father’s will for those who come to Jesus —Mat11:28.
May you consider who Jesus is according to the Bible and not allow yourself to be detoured
into following another Jesus , the Jesus of Mormonism –2 Cor 11:4.
That’s my prayer for you . Have a great weekend .
To Everyone.
I would like to make a comment. I have heard a lot of people ridicule the LDS for the changes in the Book of Mormon, with no real proof of anything substantial. Yet here we have Mike and 4fivesolas admitting that the Bible isn’t 100% accurate, but that is okay because the important parts are all there. 4fivesolas actually says that these discrepancies are proof of trust-worthiness. Does anyone care to correct this, or do you all agree with it.
The reason I ask is because it clearly shows a double standard if you do.
TJay
“Jesus is co-equal but willingly subservient to the father, and because of this subservience all praise and worship shown given to him is then directed and given to the Father”
I will offer this. Jesus is co-equal in that he is co-eternal. He is also co-equal in power, knowledge, and glory. He is not co-equal with the Father in authority, which he willingly admits and submits to (which is partly why he is co-equal in the other ways).
It is true that the Father is honored and worshiped when we honor and worship the son. However, if we honor and worship the son in an inappropriate manner the Father is not honored, and we will stand condemned.
I hope this makes sense.
Sharon
Worship: reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
We give sacred homage to Christ. So, in the strictest sense of the word we do worship him. However, in the more general sense, or the way that people are using it here, we do not worship Christ. Our prayers are said to the Father. Our Covenants are made with the Father. He is the center of our worship, and the only one who is the center, and I think you would find it impossible to find any leader of this church who says otherwise.
This is the point.
SR
You know, I think it would be better if you let us say what definition we use, rather than trying to do so yourself.
There is actually very few times that we do not use the most common definitions of words as given in the various dictionaries of the English Language, including the 8th article of faith. So please, don’t try to assign our words (or those of our leaders) definitions that you like.
Q. Is Jesus God?
A. Yes, for he is Jehovah, the great God of the Old Testament and the second member of the Godhead. However, he is not the Father, but is subject to Him, and is thus not the one supreme being, as he clearly teaches in the New Testament.
Q. Is Jesus divine?
A. Yes.
Q. Is Jesus God made flesh to walk among us?
A. Yes, when his godhood is properly understood as given in the answer to question one.
Rick
I have never once denied that Christ was Jehovah, or the Great I Am of the Old Testament. Actually I have affirmed this on more than one occasion. It is just that he is not the Father, or the one Supreme Being that we worship. In all my reading of the Old and New Testament this is the truth that I see. I do not see the trinity (and the word not appearing has never meant much to me). I see a Godhead, with the Father as the supreme being, the Son being next in Authority, and the Holy Ghost being the messenger.
As to all your other points, if there is ever a thread to discuss them I may address them there, but not here. In fact, I may address them on my blog in the next few days if you care to visit.
Mike
When it comes to a personal relationship with Christ, I am all for it, and agree that it is needed by all men. However, I think you have things mixed up as to how we achieve that relationship.
Show me the verse were Christ tells us to pray to him. There are many instances of people bowing down before him and worshiping him, which he accepted. But there are also cases where people would give him too much honor, and he would correct them, directing their attention to the Father (like the man who called him good master, and was told to only call the Father good). Even when he commanded us to be perfect, he did not use himself as an example, only the Father.
In all his teachings Christ taught the Father. It is in honoring and worshiping the Father correctly that we establish a relationship
Shem, I’ll make this brief , this is a busy weekend. When you state that 4fivesola’s and myself
” admit that the Bible is’nt 100% accurate …” , that might send the wrong message of what I
believe . The Bible we have today is a copy , not the original , as such there have been some
minor ” errors” in transmission etc. but this in no way obscures what the Bible records about
important issues . When it comes to the life of Jesus in the New Testament we have a record
that we can embrace with confidence concerning what He taught about knowing Him and
establishing a relationship with God . Even Mormon authorities have said so . That being the
case I see no reason to move the topic over to that issue at this time . Concerning what you
said about worship and Jesus I believe the Bible reveals that Jesus , as the Son , shares equal
authority with His Father as such He deserves to directly receive the same quality of worship.
So when Mormon leaders say that the SOLE OBJECT of christian worship is the Father then I
know that I can’t follow these men as trustworthy guides . Quite frankly I think the reason that
Mormons don’t seem to know where Jesus ultimately stands in relation to His Father is that He
is only the first son among many produced by a God and one of His Goddess wives in heaven .
He’s only a spirit brother who attained the name “Jehovah God” so no wonder equal authority
and worship are’nt accorded Him by Mormon authorities .
Changes in the Bible, mistakes in the Bible, the reliability of the Bible etc.
I think I’ve posted this at least a half a dozen times in the last four years or so. I should just keep it some place and cut and paste the answer.
Point number one: When Christians claim inerrancy of the Bible we are talking about the original manuscripts not the copies.
Point number two: We know about transmissional errors by checking between the available manuscripts and see if they’re the same. The number of these errors is miniscule.
Point number three: The transmissional errors that do exist are well documented and don’t effect any point of orthodox Christian doctrine.
Point number four: The analogy has been made that the copies are like listening to a record that has a few scratches in it. The message of the music, the tempo, the pitch the rhythm aren’t effected.
Here’s the problem with the changes made to the BoM. They aren’t transmissional errors, that is someone not hitting the mark on every single word. The problem is that the changes in the BoM do effect the message of Mormonism and the doctrine. Mormons need to go back to the original BoM as written and see if they get the shivers and shakes when they read it.
The fact of the matter and the problem with Mormonism is that it depends on the “revelations” supposedly made to men who sell themselves as prophets. Again, as I’ve pointed out countless times there are all kinds of Mormon prophets attached to the various sects of Mormonism who claim they have the real deal revelation. The differences in these Mormon sects regarding basic doctrine are huge.
Mormonism is just one more of many religions who claim prophets with revelations and visions and claim they have the truth.
Shem said
I never asked you to debate them on this topic, I just mentioned them to Falcon, and just putting them out their for people who might have missed them. No real point in debating with you, you reject the truth anyway.
Shem said
Well you do reject Jesus being the father, and the Jews that Jesus said, I AM to knew exactly what He meant, and if you think I am wrong, you can ask any Jew alive today, especially what we call the Black Hats, or the hard core religious Orthodox Jewish leaders over in Israel. They will tell you, Thats exactly what Jesus meant, they to this day dont believe He is God, but they knew what he meant. So Jesus claimed to Be God the Father.
Rick, you stated to Shem:
Well you do reject Jesus being the father…Jesus claimed to be God the Father.
Brother Rick, do you believe that Jesus is the Father, or is Jesus the Son or both? Please clarify your position.
I reject Jesus as being the Father because Jesus is the Son – not the Father. Nowhere in the gospels does Jesus claim to be the Father. There is a sharp distinction between the Persons of the Father and the Son, and Jesus was pretty clear about that but not denying deity (John 5:17-18; 10:30 and many, many more). Jesus claimed to be the Messiah/the Christ – the Son of God (Mark 14:61-62; Luke 22:70). Jesus is the I AM (fully God in His nature and essence with the Father and the Spirit). He applied the divine name of God (I AM) to himself (John 8:58) because He is fully divine (Col 2:9). To claim that Jesus is both the Father and the Son is the heresy of Sabellianism (modalism).
The idea of the BoM being an actual history of an actual people who occupied the Americas is preposterous. As has been pointed out by Rick several times on this blog, we can go to the Middle East and visit the places mentioned in the Bible. In fact, it has been said that Paul’s description of travel, especially sea travel, is an excellent guide to the means (of travel) and the geography.
Here’s the really tough sell though for the BoM. It’s well known that Joseph Smith took his magic rock, put it in his hat and by shoving his face in the hat to eliminate all light, received written messages. So, in-other-words, the “golden plates” weren’t even consulted. He could have gotten along without them which he did because they never existed. BTW, despite all of his attempts, Smith never found any buried treasure with his magic rock either. It seems that he did strike gold however as a religious inventor.
So has the Bible been accurately transmitted giving us God’s revelation? We have enough evidence to support the claim that the Bible has been accurately reproduced. Now is the Bible true? Well that’s another topic entirely. In-the-end we accept through faith that Jesus is the Messiah. We affirm that He died on the cross, was buried and arose again from the dead. It’s His resurrection that we offer as proof that He is who He claimed to be. Paul put it quite bluntly when he said that if the dead aren’t raised than Christ had not risen and we are among men, to be most pitied.
As Christians we put our faith and trust totally on Jesus having secured eternal life for us through the shedding of His blood. The Holy Spirit has safe-guarded God’s revelation of Jesus the Christ.
Hello Andy,
I want to point out a few things after answering your question on me clarifying my position.
I believe in the trinity, God, Jesus and the Holy spirit, all one God, 3 in 1 not 3 separate gods as Mormonism teaches. 3 in 1 like water can be water, steam or ice, all three are water but can be in different forms.
I want to add that one thing I notice with us Christians verses the Mormons is this, If one of us says something and another christian things were wrong, they will ask us about it. This has happened once before with me and Andy, and I have said things to other believers. I never claimed to know everything or even always word things in such a way as I was clear well spoken. But I notice LDS dont correct one another if they dont agree, here are two LDS on this topic that dont agree.
Ralph said
Shem said
So one LDS believes God walked among us in the flesh, the other does not. So again, if you guys dont agree, but both claim to know what your talking about, who do I trust and how can I know who is right?
I also have admitted to LDS before, I was wrong, they pointed it out and I said, yep, your right, I was wrong, but LDS wont admit if they are wrong.
Shem, Jesus is the center of my worship, he is my God. Our worship at Church centers on Jesus and His death and resurrection for our forgiveness. We exalt and glorify the risen Lord Jesus. This worship is supported by the Scriptures.
Falcon, good explanation of why having supporting documents increases our confidence in Scripture.
Hi Rick,
Thank you for clarifying your position regarding the Person of Jesus Christ in distinction of the Father and for your confession in the triune God. I would like to discuss the water analogy that you gave regarding the Trinity sometime in the future if/when an article is posted on MC about the Trinity.
We need to test everything by the Word. We need to hold each other accountable by asking questions or making statements to Christians in a way that should honor God. I’m thankful knowing that I have brothers and sisters in the Lord on this blog who will keep me accountable and let me know when I get something wrong. I know me; It’s bound to happen again very soon. I’m not sure how the Mormons go about this. Maybe Ralph and Shem can come to a consensus on that contradiction between themselves and clarify that for us on the blog. Thanks for pointing that out, Rick.
Soli Deo Gloria!
Hello Andy,
I have had many brothers over the years correct me on things, or flat out tell me I am/was wrong for the way I handled things. I know when I first felt called by God to share with LDS, I did not know Bill Mc, but I heard of him and somehow got a hold of his phone number. I called him and explained who I was, why and how I witness to Mormons, and would tell him stories and say to him, I spoke with a mormon and said this, or did this, or whatever.
Now sometimes I said or did somethings that were stupid, But I did not know any better, all zeal and no wisdom. Bill would tell me, and this is my paraphrase, What, are you stupid, dont say that or do that, You will not get anyplace acting like that.
I have also had many other friends, From pastors to average Joe’s correct me on issues. I have the utmost respect for people who correct me if I am wrong, But they need to tell me how and why, not simply say, Your wrong because I said so or I dont agree with you.
I do not respect people who wont correct me for fear of caring that I might be offended and get mad at them. As far as the issue of the water, I know that analogy is not perfect, I have heard people use that one, plus an egg, the shell, white and yolk, and other analogy ‘s. For sure none are perfect but those are some of these are used by many people.
I don’t find any truth in Mormonism.
Mormonism denies the Bible as God’s final revelation to mankind, they deny the Virgin Birth, the person and work of Jesus, salvation by grace, and the solidarity of God. Of course we have to pick the version of Mormonism for clarification. The Christians on this blog provide endless LDS documentation regarding what their prophets have said about these things but more often than not, the Mormons try and deny the obvious.
At the same time the Utah Mormons will accept as truth the ever shifting sands of doctrine that they stand on proclaimed by men who claim they are hearing from God.
Joseph Smith was a fool. For anyone to put their faith and trust and eternal destiny in his hands and that of their families is beyond foolish.
Mormonism, at its core, is a false religion that exalts man over God by replacing Him with man made gods. Quite plainly, Mormonism is a mess, a quagmire and a maze of confusion.
The Light came into the world to illuminate the dark and provide a pathway to the Father. As the apostle John says, there are people who like the dark more than they do the Light. Mormonism denies the Son by making him into a created being. Again the apostle John in the first chapter of the gospel tells us plainly who Jesus is. Mormons deny Jesus and in so doing bring upon themselves eternal destruction.
Can you imagine rejecting Jesus and spending your life, your time, efforts and treasure in the pursuit of an imaginary goal of becoming a god? The source for this nonsense? It isn’t God’s Holy Spirit. It’s a fallen man who like the men who followed him were enraptured with their own false spirituality and blinded by their sin.
Ok, Shem said it bothers him that the Bible has problems and changes and feels we pick on Mormonism since their are changes made to the BoM.
Here are my thoughts on this. There is no evidence from the form of archaeology. I have said this before and I have had Mormons tell me in face to face talks, The history of the BoM is only around 200 plus years. Well we know this simply is not true. First off the BoM states that the Nephites were around 600 years before Jesus was born, and they lived in Jerusalem.
So we have evidence for the Bible from History, We have cities, People, lands, food Etc. Many on this blog, myself included have been to Israel, we took pictures, video, Ate food, spoke with people, Etc.
Yet we never meet any people or been to any BoM lands. As I said Before, Chuck Missler and a friend of his read the story of Paul being ship wrecked, and the ship dropped two anchors. Here it is almost 2000 years later, they used what they read in that story and found those anchors and gave them as a gift to the President of the Island of malta. That alone is pretty impressive using the Bible. But this has never been done with the BoM.
Now another fact we have to say we can trust the Bible is this, Jesus, the apostles and many others quoted from The OT all the way back to the Garden of Adam. If we have or had BoM people alive living 600 years before Jesus and they lived in Jerusalem and Israel, then it must be asked, Why were they never mentioned? To me it says, they were not real and did not exist. Add to that, (cont)
as I said before, outside of the BoM and LDS sources, we have no form of history from secular to religious that they ever existed. So to me this is serious evidence that proves The BoM is false.
Some other issues arise, Shem claims that the reason for some of the changes is an update in language. I dont have a problem in general with that idea, But what I have a problem with is this, Call it shear coincidence, but I find it funny how Blacks were told they would become White, yet now it has been changed to pure. I know Shem is adamant this is not a problem and he makes Pure to mean as pure as snow like the Bible says. But still Skin color changing to now our inner human nature changing is vastly different. As I said before, JS claimed this book was the Most correct book of any, and when Christians claim, we dont have the Original manuscripts to compare with what we have today. But as luck would have it, we have the original BoM to compare with what we have today. So sadly in less than 200 years we have over 4000 changes. But if we look at the dead Sea Scrolls that date back over close to 4,000 years and guess what, we find so few changes that that amount to less than 200 changes. And out of those changes, it has been proven none effects doctrine. We read in the O.T. God says,
(cont)
The O.T. is full of prophecy’s both proving God is the author and proving we can trust the Bible. I dont know the exact amount but the Bible has roughly 1,800 Prophecy’s and roughly 500 alone predict where Jesus would be born, how He would live and die, the Romans gambling for His cloths while He was on the cross, His beard being plucked out, sour wine being offered to Him on a sponge, His bones being put out of Joint and many more. Can you show me all of this from the BoM?
The evidence for the Bible being the Word of God and it being trustworthy is over whelming. The evidence for the BoM does not exist.
Rick,
Rule number one for aberrant, heretical cults; attack the Bible. Rule number two, attack the person and work of Jesus Christ. Rule number three, attack orthodox Christianity as having lost its way and in need of a new revelation. Finally rule number four, claim to have a prophet who has a special message that by its very peculiarity, is the truth. (See various Mormon sects and the Jehovah Witnesses among others.)
Trace any such group and it’s always the same thing. Then there are the Christian groups who by and large have an orthodox flavor but are a couple of bubbles off of plumb. See Seven Day Adventists and the Oneness Pentecostals and a few of the Charismatic latter day rain groups among others.
Andy Watson will tell you that he wished he hadn’t spent so much time studying these groups but should have devoted the time more to the foundational truths of the Christian faith. He’s spent plenty of time doing the latter also.
When bank tellers and others who handle a lot of money commercially are trained to spot counterfeit money, they aren’t trained with counterfeit money. They are taught by handling a lot of the real thing. That’s the way it is with Christian doctrine and orthodox theology. A person learns it well so as to spot the counterfeit when it presents itself.
I made sure I did this with my daughter as she was growing up and it paid off when she was approached by a couple of these cultic groups. She didn’t take the bait.
It’s no wonder why Mormons have been called polytheists given some of their teachings
about God . Some influential Mormons have even been open about this and admit to such .
To deflect away from this position Mormon leadership has tried to emphasize that they
believe in and worship “One” God .Yet upon examining this advertisement we find
that this One God is taught to be a Supreme Council consisting of three separate
Gods who have been termed a “plurality of Gods” . Interestingly , Mormon authority
James Talmage has defined polytheism as ,” the doctrine of a plurality of gods …”
[ Articles of Faith p 51]. This term has been such an afront to what Jesus’ apostles taught
about God —Father,Son , Holy Ghost —that it is little wonder why most Mormons want to
distance themselves from it . Sadly, Mormon apostles while claiming to restore the same church
and same gospel truths as Jesus’ original apostles taught , proceeded to wander away from the
pattern of sound words of those original apostles( 2Tim 1:13) by adding new doctrines about
God : from One true God over to many Gods and Goddesses even Gods above the One
true God revealed in the Bible ( and BofM) . The apostles of Jesus warned about those who
would introduce terrible doctrines which would even be wrapped in “christian ” terms –2Pt2:1
Today Mormons use the term “Godhead” instead of “Trinity” . This is useful since at next
Conference the news could be revealed that the Godhead has yet another member
an additional God. Or perhaps a decision to emphasize the Holy Trinity that created
this earth–Elohim,Jehovah and Michael–that B.Y. taught in the Temple.
Mike,
This is what happens when people denigrate the Bible and start listening to a man with a magic rock!