The September/October 2012 issue of Stand To Reason’s newsletter, Solid Ground, focuses on this question: Is Mormonism just another Christian denomination? In the author’s forward, Greg Koukl explains,
“In this month’s Solid Ground, I do what the LDS is failing to do. My aim is ‘simply to educate’ on some of the foundational differences between classical Christianity—the Christianity of the last 2000 years—and the Mormon church.
“In this article, I’m not asking if Mormonism is true. I’m only trying to determine if it’s Christian in the classical sense of the term. That’s all. Let’s get the facts clear.”
As one might imagine, the article takes a good look at theological issues. Mr. Koukl writes,
“If Mormonism is a denomination of Christianity, then everything doctrinally central to classical Christianity is also central to LDS theology, and nothing doctrinally central to LDS theology is inconsistent with classical Christianity.”
With that caveat, the article takes a look at the Mormon view of God. Using the 2011 book LDS Beliefs—A Doctrinal Reference by Robert L. Millet, Camille Fronk Olsen, Andrew C. Skinner and Brent L. Top as his reference, Greg Koukl summarizes,
“The Mormon Godhead consists of ‘three beings’ who each ‘possess all of the attributes of godliness in perfection,’ that are ‘a divine community’ sharing ‘no mystical union of substance.’ Instead, they ‘are as distinct in their persons and individualities as are any three persons in mortality.’ (263-264)
“[This] is an explicit affirmation of polytheism. Note, ‘God the first…God the second…and God the third’ are ‘separate and distinct beings.’
“To be fair, Mormonism denies this charge: ‘The LDS belief in… three beings within the Godhead… is not to say that we are polytheistic.’ (263) However, also to be fair, this assertion is hard to take seriously.”
Noting that there is nothing ambiguous about the word polytheism, Solid Ground defines it for readers: “from poly- (many) and theos (god)—is the belief in or worship of more than one god.” Yet Mormons insist that Mormonism is not polytheistic while still holding to a firm belief in (and worship of) more than one God. Mr. Koukl provides his readers with the Mormon explanation on this seeming contradiction that can be found in LDS Beliefs under the heading “Monotheism”:
“In the ultimate and final sense of the word, there is only one true and living God…. We believe in one God in that we believe in one Godhead, one divine presidency of the universe… three Gods… three beings… and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one.” (436)
Mr. Koukl urges his readers to “note the qualification” the Mormon authors use in their explanation: “Mormonism is ‘monotheistic’ in the sense that three distinct Gods comprise what was earlier referred to as one ‘divine community.’”
A theology that includes a plurality of Gods is foundational in Mormonism. Joseph Smith taught,
“I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods… [Father, Son and Holy Ghost] constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.” (History of the Church 6:474).
Brigham Young:
“How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods…” (Journal of Discourses 7:333).
Bruce McConkie:
“Three separate personages — Father, Son, and Holy Ghost — comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods” (Mormon Doctrine, 576-577).
Nevertheless, Mr. McConkie insisted, “The saints are not polytheists” (Mormon Doctrine, 579).
Greg Koukl concludes,
“A belief in multiple, distinct gods is polytheistic, even if the LDS refuses to call it that. Religious groups are free to define their own beliefs. They are not free to redefine the English language.”
Sixteen years ago when interviewed by the San Francisco Chronicle, BYU professor (emeritus) Truman Madsen was refreshingly candid on the subject:
“People tell us, ‘You don’t believe in one God; you believe in three Gods.’ And the answer is, ‘Yes, we do.’ If that is polytheism then we are.” (“150-Year- Old Debate: Are Mormons `Really Christian’? San Francisco Chronicle, April 8, 1996).
Yes, Dr. Madsen, that is polytheism. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion and is therefore theologically inconsistent with classical Christianity.
Thank you, Ralph & shematwater, for explicitly stating that you believe in at least two Gods — God the Father and Jesus Christ, thus admitting that Mormonism is polytheistic.
Ralph said (bolded emphasis mine): Is he God made flesh to walk among us? No, but He is a God that came down to walk among us sent by His Father and His God and our Father and our God as the Bible teaches.
And shematwater said (bolded emphasis again mine): . Yes, for he is Jehovah, the great God of the Old Testament and the second member of the Godhead. However, he is not the Father, but is subject to Him, and is thus not the one supreme being, as he clearly teaches in the New Testament.
SR
I have to disagree with you again. Polytheism is not merely the belief in many Gods, but the worship of many. We worship only one, and thus are not polytheistic. The closest term you can get is Henotheistic, or the belief in many but the worship of one. Even this does not fully describe the truth of the doctrine, but it is definitely closer than polytheistic.
Personally I wouldn’t care either way, if people clarified the actual doctrine, rather than trying to let the connotations of the words do their explaining.
Mike
There is no confusion in our doctrine as to who Christ is and what His relationship with the Father and with us is. We know Him very well, and it is because we know him that we are able to worship him in the way he has proscribed.
(I would love to see a quote from the Bible that says that the Father and Son are equal and thus are given the same worship.)
Rick
I never said anything bothered me. I simply pointed out a double standard in your reasoning (one among many).
As to everything else you say, you are right, I really don’t care, but it is because I know and embrace the truth, and thus false understandings are meaningless. I could address every single point you give, and I likely will in my own blog. However, doing so here is pointless as you have already convinced yourself of your own correctness.
Speaking of the supposed contradiction between me and Ralph, from what I read, it doesn’t exist. We are saying the same thing, but in different ways.
His focus is more on separating the Son from the Father, and thus he uses the term God to apply only to the Father. In this context he is right; Christ is not God (or the Father) made flesh, but is a god that was sent to dwell in flesh among us.
On the other hand, my focus was more on explaining the divinity and godhead of Christ, and thus I affirm that he was God, as he is a member of the Godhead, and when this is properly understood we can rightly say that he is God made flesh.
So there is no contradiction. Christ is not the God the Father (the one we worship) made Flesh. But he is a member of the Godhead made flesh. So there was no need to correct anything.
(I guess you missed my correction of TJay and his explanation of the relationship between the Father and Son.
Falcon
You realize that all your points concerning the Bible apply just as well to the Book of Mormon.
“Point number one: When Christians claim inerrancy of the Bible we are talking about the original manuscripts not the copies.”
We would agree completely, as when it was first written by inspired men there were no errors. The same is true of the Book of Mormon. We have never denied this, but have affirmed this fact.
“Point number two: We know about transmissional errors by checking between the available manuscripts and see if they’re the same. The number of these errors is miniscule.”
I know some who would disagree on the number, but the same concept is true of the Book of Mormon. Each addition is compared back with the original manuscript and the copies made by Joseph Smith’s Scribes.
“Point number three: The transmissional errors that do exist are well documented and don’t affect any point of orthodox Christian doctrine.”
The same is true of the changes to the Book of Mormon, despite your protests to the contrary. I have to note, however, that you mention “Orthodox doctrine.” Thus you make it possible for changes to have occurred to make the text agree more fully with this doctrine.
“Point number four: The analogy has been made that the copies are like listening to a record that has a few scratches in it. The message of the music, the tempo, the pitch the rhythm aren’t affected.”
The same analogy can apply to the Book of Mormon.
My point is that you have a double standard in that you allow yourself errors and just casually dismiss them; however, you (meaning generally) want to make such changes as ‘who’ to ‘whom’ in the Book of Mormon proof of falsehood.
This goes back to my very much earlier comment in which I talked about how Mormonism likes to take words and give them their own definitions.
Polytheism (from dictionary.com):
the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.
Polytheism (from Merriam-Webster Online):
belief in or worship of more than one god
Polytheism (from The Free Dictionary):
The worship of or belief in more than one god.
While yes, it does say “the worship of” it says OR “belief in”. And the first dictionary definition explicitly states “the doctrine of”.
Mormon’s doctrine of the celestial kingdom and exaltation and eternal progression is a doctrine that promotes the belief of and the existence of many gods, as the LDS church teaches that a man can become a god.
By saying that Jesus is divine and that He is “a God” made flesh, you are saying that you believe in more than one god. By using the phrase “Jesus is the God of the Old Testament” you are implying a belief in more than one god.
It’s very simple, really.
Hey Mike R,
You know more about JW’s than most since If I recall correctly your wife is a former JW.
So the LDS here claim Jesus is A god that came here in the flesh, Dont the JW teach the same thing.
I recall they changed John 1.
KJV
NWT
So if this is the case, How is Mormonism any different?
SR
If you want to get technical I have no problem with being a polytheist.
The problem is not in the technicalities, but in the connotations. That is my point. Few people, when they hear the word Polytheistic, think of a mere belief. It instantly brings to mind the direct worship of many beings hailed as gods. This does not apply to the LDS church, and thus the connotations of the word make it an inappropriate description without a clarifying note.
No one can rightly say we worship more than one God, even if we have the belief in many.
Then again, one must clarify the meaning of the word god.
From dictionary.com
1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
This is the most common definition, and the one that we apply to the Father.
3. ( lowercase ) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
This is a definition we do not use, as we do not have this doctrine (which is frequently associated with polytheism).
4. ( often lowercase ) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
This definition is applied only to the Godhead. Thus both the Father and the Son can be called the god of mercy.
7. ( lowercase ) any deified person or object.
This is the definition that is applied to all other gods in the LDS doctrine. They are all divine beings, and thus are rightly called gods. However, they are not the supreme creator and ruler; they are not presiding over portions of worldly affairs. They simply are beings who have achieve a divine state.
When we get the full understanding of LDS doctrine Polytheism doesn’t quite cut it.
Rick, you’re correct that Jesus is just a god to Jw’s ( the first angelic son Jehovah created —
known as Michael in heaven ), he was not the result sex between an exalted male and one
of His exalted wives as in Mormon doctrine and he was no member of the Godhead.
They’re offically recommended translation of the end of Jn 1: 1 is :
“….and the Word was a god.” (little “g”)
Mormon leaders officially recommend the way the KJV reads .
Here is the Joseph Smith Translation of John 1: 1. It is printed in the apendicese of the Bible by the LDS church.
“In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.”
SR, you laid your argument out clearly .
Shem, unfortunately the same cannot be said of your arguments on this thread concerning
the many Gods of Mormonism . You seemed to be all over the map , kind of like a seasoned
politician who can blend a yes and no in responding to a question . You worship only one
Being—the Father who is a God , so you’re not polytheist . But then you accept being a
polytheist since you worship all three Gods in a Godhead . However , since this Godhead
of three separate Gods is really ” one unit ” therefore you are in “a sense” worshiping only
one God and thus not a polytheist . When it comes to the worship of Jesus you worship
the Father “through” him , you revere and honor him but apparently this is not the same
kind of worship due the Father. It’s worship ” in a sense” , not direct worship . Mormons say
they worship Jesus but then are taught that the sole object of worship is the Father . I can
conclude from this that Jesus apparently is’nt worthy of true authentic worship , only a high
honor . That’s Sad . But what Mormon leaders present as murky doctrine the Bible is
quite clear about : Jesus Christ is co-equal with His Father in power and authority and as such
deserves the very same quality of direct worship. This pleases the Father [Jn 5:17-23].
This worship entails praise, petitioning, and lifestyle. This life changing experience is
available to all who open the door to Him–Rev 3:20.
Shem, I gotta ask, Do you believe the J.S.T verse you posted? If so, Do use use the J.S.T and that translation only?
I ask because I also happen to own a copy of the J.S.T. and according to the J.S.T. it claims it is not complete, or not finished. This poses a problem in light of the fact that supposdly God told JS in the D and C he would not die until it was finished. But many in the LDS church teach it was not finished.
Then I also understand that the LDS church only uses a select few verses from the J.S.T but many more they ignore feeling it is both corrupt and since the LDS church does not own the right to the Book they cannot use all of it.
Rick
I believe the Joseph Smith Translation completely; but no I will not use it exclusively. Joseph Smith didn’t use it exclusively, so why should I.
As to the translation being complete, I will say this: Joseph Smith finished the translation itself, but he did not finish preparing it for print. What does exist is a copy of what he wrote. However, as it is largely notes and not a complete manuscript it is not always possible to tell exactly what was intended by him.
As to corruption, I know of no one who says it was corrupted. I have red quotes that say that since it was published by the reorganized church, and thus not by the power and command of God, we do not use it, nor do we fully trust their published version. The translation itself is still correct, however.
Mike
Nothing I said is really confusing, but maybe I didn’t explain it in the clearest of terms.
The most common definition of the word God is “The one supreme being.” In using this definition we believe in and worship only one God, and that is the Father. He is the Supreme Being that even Christ submitted his will to.
However, the Godhead makes up a governing counsel or body. In this way we can understand the Godhead in a similar manner as you do the Trinity (three making one God) and thus we can worship all members of the Godhead, and yet still rightly claim to be worshiping only one God (just as we honor and respect individual congressmen, but still have only one Congress).
(continued)
Now, let us consider the worship of Christ, something that I have never denied, only tried to put into place.
First, nowhere are we told to petition the Son. Christ always tells us to pray to the Father. We do it in Christ’s name, but it is still petitioning the Father.
Looking at your references let me say a few things.
In John 5: 17-23 Christ has placed himself under the Father. He doesn’t do anything that the Father has not already done and shown him. This clearly shows that Christ submits to the will of the Father. He has the same power, but he submits to the authority of the Father in all things.
Also, verse 23, while it tells us to honor the Son as we honor the Father, is not talking about worshiping them in the exact same way. We honor the Father for who he is. If we honor the Son for who the Father is than we are not honoring him as we honor the Father. We must honor the Son for who he is, and by so doing we honor the Father for who he is.
A similar Idea is given in Luke 10: 16 when Christ says “He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.”
This is not putting the apostles as equal to Christ or the Father, and certainly not saying they should be worshiped. In a like manner, if we honor the Son as we do the Father than we will worship him how he has proscribed we worship him, and not in the same way that we worship the Father. Proper worship pleases the Father. Improper worship does not.
Shem, I dont agree with you but wont debate the J.S.T since this is not a topic about that. But when that topic comes up I will.
Shem,
Worship of Jesus – exalting and glorifying God come in the flesh:
John 20:28 Thomas said to him “My Lord and my God!”
Remembering what Christmas is about, like the wisemen and angels we worship Jesus when we celebrate his birth:
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Matthew 2:11 – And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.
Those He healed:
Matthew 8:2 – And behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, if you will, you can make me clean.”
Healed blind man worships Him:
John 9: 37 – 38 Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
Does anyone but God receive worship? No.
Acts 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.”
St. John is reprimanded for worshipping an angel:
Rev. 19:10 10
Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant[a] with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Exodus 34:14 For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God
If Jesus was the perfect sinless man, why did He repeatedly receive worship without rebuking those who bowed before Him? Simple answer – Jesus is God come in the flesh.
Shem,
And there are more verses than just that showing Jesus received direct worship. He is worthy of our worship. He is God, our creator and redeemer. When I bow before the risen Lord Jesus Christ, my conscience is clear, because Scripture reveals that this worship is holy and right and a natural response of a forgiven sinner.
Shem, I think the problem is in your attempt to squeeze the Mormon doctrine of plurality
of Gods into the Bible’s framework about God. It’s not a good fit . You have to many Gods.
You worship ONLY one person , the Father , yet you say that you also worship two other ones
who happen to be separate Gods , but you’re not really a polytheist because these three are
really “one council “. I’m sorry but Mormon apostles have created to many Gods . Given
this error perhaps one day the Mormon Godhead will contain as many members as the
U.S. Congress and Mormons will maintain they are not polytheists. All I know is that once
we veer off from the Bible’s testimony of one GOD and instead follow prophets who
teach of Gods /Goddesses / a plurality of Gods, then we have allowed ourselves to be guided
down the wrong trail.
Worship of Jesus : Jn 5:17-23 is a great lesson for us to realize that we are to honor Jesus by
submitting to Him just as we would do to the Father ,the worship and spiritual service we
would render to the Father the same is due Jesus, nothing could honor the Father more and
it makes Him proud to have it so. We’re not honoring the Son for who the Father is , we’re
giving each of them honor individually as Jesus is co-equal in power, glory and authority.
He has a different role in the Trinity and He still deserves the same quality of devotion ,
which renders direct praise, and worship to Him proper behavior in the N.T.church.
Shem, Let’s look briefly at what a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ consists
of according to the Bible , especially the New Testament. I happen to believe that to
experience a healthy personal relationship with God the Father we need to be acquainted
with what the Bible teaches about the divine identity of Jesus. As we read thru the N.T. we
notice a remarkable thing taking place —the apostles slowly coming to realize who Jesus was.
The apostles came to understand that Jesus is entitled to the same honor that is due God ,
which included praise and worship . They came to experience a fellowship with Jesus
while He was with them in Jerusalem and which continued after His ascension , a fellowship
which was very intimate because communication was a vital part , as in any personal relation-
ship and prayer was the means . A new type of relationship started to dawn on the disciples
with Jesus’ words in Jn 14:12-14 and the Father and the Son would both be involved [Jn 14:23].
We see this experience further explained in 1 Jn 1:3 . In the Epistles we see the apostles
placing the focus on the name of Jesus that Jews had placed on Jehovah . In fact as prayer to
Jehovah was to call upon Him —Ps. 105:1; Joel 2:32 — this same behavior became the
experience of those who were now members in the early church , followers of Jesus –1Cor 1:2 .
To draw near to the Father is to spend time in prayer to Him , same direct interaction with
Jesus draws one closer to Him — a fellowship that fully personal and therefore admits of
asking and receiving .
That’s all for now .
4fivesolas
Have I ever even once denied that we worship Christ? I have, more than once now, affirmed that we do worship him. I have no problem with this, and if he were present at this time I would bow down before him.
However, he is not the One Supreme being. That is the Father, and thus we do not worship the Son as being that Supreme Being, for he is not. That worship goes to the Father.
Mike
Our doctrine takes less squeezing than the idea of the Trinity.
Now, I have no problem with any of the verses you site, and very little difference in opinion as to what they mean. John 14 is a great promise to have the Lord Jesus Christ and his Father visit us if we are faithful. Our relationship with them is vital, and I have no problem denying that.
I also have no problem is calling on the name of Christ. I do this every time I pray, for my prayers are said in his name. He is the great mediator, and everything I do or say is in his name. But my prayers are still addressed to the Father.
Now, there are accounts of people praying directly to Christ, but in all cases Christ was present, and thus it was an unusual circumstance. If he was present I would pray to him. But he isn’t, and he has directed us to pray to the Father.
You have yet to actually give a single verse where Christ tells us to pray to him as well as the Father.
(continued)
As to Christ being equal with God, I do not see this being taught in the Bible. When the young man calls him ‘Good Master’ Christ rebukes him and tells him to call only the Father Good, obviously making himself to be under the Father. Also, the command was to be perfect like the Father, with no mention of the Son. Again clearly putting the Father above the Son. Then in the Garden of Gethsemane Christ prayed to the Father, and declared “Thy will be done,” again showing his submission to the authority of the Father.
Now, as I said, Christ has the same power, glory, and attributes of perfection that the Father has. However, the Father has authority over the Son. Paul understood this, as he wrote to the Corinthians that “But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (1 Corinthians 15: 27-28)
Clearly the Son is not equal to the Father in authority, for he is also subject to the one who put all things under him.
The Son is to be worshiped as the Son, Savior, and Christ of God. The Father is to be worshiped as the one Supreme Being, or God. The Bible makes this abundantly clear.
Shem, You have not dealt honestly with the Scriptures I quoted. Scripture says to worship only the one true God. Jesus receives worship. Jesus is the one true God (or the “Supreme Being” although I don’t see that term in the Bible). If Jesus is not our creator and God why does He accept our worship? Your position does not hold up when compared with Scripture – you cannot both worship multiple “gods” and one true God at the same time, it just is not supported by the Bible, or logic.
Jesus did not rebuke the man for calling him Good Master. Jesus was challenging him to see the full importance of what the young man was saying – Jesus is the great IAM, the one true God.
Shem, sorry but your argument as to why Mormons aren’nt polytheists is’nt convincing . You
have to many Gods . Your attempt to prove that Jesus is’nt deserving of the same type worship
as the Father through citing verses in the Gospels that highlight Jesus’ humility and servanthood
as Messiah as proof is a mistake that can easily be made if we don’t take the rest of the Bible into
account concerning His identity . You also fail to realize that since there is no verse in the
Gospels that has Jesus saying exactly : ” Pray to me” ,that this is proof it’s not appropriate
Christian worship to commune with Him by prayer . The height of your poor reasoning
was your excuse that if Jesus was present it is ok to pray to Him , but if He is not present then
we should’nt interact with Him thru prayer . This is silly . It’s only logical to realize that given
He can hear us it’s just as needed NOW for us to ask of Him and praise Him by prayer when He is
not present .The early Church knew this so they honored worshiped / prayed to the Father
and Jesus both when neither of them were literally present .The religious devotion that Paul
as a Jew rendered to Jehovah by worshiping and praying to Him by calling upon His name–
Ps 105:1 ; Joel 2:32 was changed radically overnight by his encounter with the risen Lord
Jesus , and he now called upon that name as did others(see Acts) .To call upon Jehovah’s name
was to pray to Him personally . The N.T. reveals the same arrangement with Jesus—1Cor.1:2.
So what Jesus began to reveal in Jn 14:12-14; 14;23, became clear after His resurection.
cont
cont.
The apostles taught their flock that this devotion to Jesus was the Father’s will for the church,
as the Father delights when we treat His Son the same as He ( the Father) deserves to be
treated . Accordingly, we see from Acts-Rev. the Father and the Son jointly form a single source
of Divine grace and assistance : Rom 1:17 ; Eph 1:3 ; 6:23 ; 2Jn 3 . Jesus was a joint possessor
and bestower of grace and blessings along with His Father .
Much could be said about the Father’s will for us to Come to Jesus [Matt 11:28]
to bow before Him in recognition of who He is and receive the grace ,mercy and forgiveness
that a loving Savior can diresctly bestow to us . It is sad that people can misconstrue what
” in Jesus name ” truly reveals . It’s not some words tacked onto the end of our prayers,
but it involves the person of Jesus . Mormons are taught to not pray to Jesus directly , that
they have a relationship with Him because they live for Him and address the Father ” in Jesus’
name ” . But entering into a relationship with Jesus is more than that . To draw near to the
Father is to be able to commune personally with Him , one person to another . Same way to
draw near to His Son — one on one interaction such as between friends .That’s why it’s
called a personal relationship, and direct prayer is necessary for such a relationship .
The Mormon people need to exchange their apostles for ones who are more accurate
about Jesus .These can be found in the N.T.
4fivesolas
Yes, Jesus did rebuke the young man. “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.” This is a rebuke. It is Christ telling the young man not to address him in the way that is only appropriate for the Father.
And yes, I was perfectly honest with the way I treated the verses you give, but I may not have been perfectly clear. So, let me explain.
The Father is the one supreme being. This is clearly laid out in the Bible, particularly in 1 Corinthians 15: 27-28. However, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost form a Godhead, or ruling counsel. This counsel carries the title of God, and thus all three members are rightly called God (like all senators being called after the name of that governing body). As the entire counsel carries the Title of God it becomes the one God that we worship. Because it consists of three different beings all three are worshiped.
So, I can rightly say that I worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. But as they make up a Godhead that is in itself God, I can say that I worship only one God.
With this understanding none of the verse you give contradict anything that I believe. I worship Christ, and it was perfectly fitting for these people to worship him and bow down to him. But he is still not the same being as the Father, who has authority over him.
Mike
I never denied that Christ is the one who extends grace and blesses us. However, he does so under his Father’s direction. This is made clear in Ephesians 1: 3 (which you sight) “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ” It is the Father who has blesses us. This is confirmed by Christ himself, for he declares “and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly” (Matthew 6: 4, 6). It is clear that it is the Father that rewards and blesses, but does so through his Son.
I am all for a personal relationship with Christ, and I am all for it being one on one. When we call on the name of Christ in our prayers it is far more than just “some words tacked onto the end of our prayers.” It is our pleading with Christ to take our petition to the Father. It is us saying, Jesus, thou Son of God, speak on my behalf with our Father that he will hear and answer my prayer. When we do anything and call on the name of Christ at the end to ask him to seal our efforts and take them before the Father that we may receive his grace according to our works. This is far more than just giving lip service to his name. It is an deeply involved plea on our part that he act as our mediator with the Father. And if our faith is strong enough he has given us the promise that he and his Father will come visit us personally (see John 14) and that is the greatest
Shem,
You are most definitely wrong on Mark 10:17. The man knelt before Jesus and called Him good. Jesus ASKED “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” So several things are going on here. Jesus – the sinless Son of God – God come in the flesh is before this man. He is most certainly good. He is challenging this man to turn away from his own good works (which this man will shortly give an account of how he has fulfilled God’s commands) and turn to the only One who is good – God alone. This is an excellent challenge for myself and LDS as well – do not depend on your good works – look to Him alone who is good. Trust is the sinless Son of God alone for your salvation. Trust in God alone and not in any good works you perform, or temple ceremonies to inherit eternal life – look to God alone. For there is none good but God. There is none good but Jesus – and He has already done all for our salvation by dying on the cross and rising again.
You still have not honestly addressed the verses. St. Thomas confessed “my Lord and my God” kneeling before Jesus. Sounds like worship of the One True God – the Supreme Being to me. God never says worship a council – He is a jealous God and says worship only the One true God. So, if Jesus is not “really” our God as Mormonism proclaims it is not proper for Him to receive worship as He does repeatedly in Scripture.
4fivesolas
I have been perfectly honest with how I have treated these verses. It is just that you are refusing to see it.
There is one true God, and that is the Godhead. All three forming a counsel are the one true God, because this does not apply to any one of them separately, but to all of them collectively. It is a Title of the Counsel, not of the individual. As such, all members of the counsel, being a part of the One True God, are rightly called God, and are rightly worshiped as being part of that counsel. This is what Thomas is saying. He is acknowledging the fact that Christ is part of the Godhead, or the one true God that we worship.
As to Mark 10: 17, I am sorry, but your explanation makes no sense. Christ is clearly telling the man not to call him good. It is not a challenge of any kind, but a direct reference to the authority of the Father.
Shem,
Yes, I am saying your explanation of how Jesus is not “really” our God, yet receives worship as our God is not honestly dealing with the Scriptures. It’s a side-step and obfuscation.
Take a look at Mark 10:17 in context and then my explanation will be clear. This man is going to boast of how he has fulfilled the law, but Jesus points out how he has not. The young man is not good. Jesus is pointing the young man to turn and trust in the ONLY One who is good – God. If you are trusting in anything in yourself for eternal life – it’s not enough “no one is good except God alone.” But wait a minute – Jesus IS good. In fact, He is sinless. Jesus is saying trust not in your own works and see me for who I am – the GOOD sinless Son of God (God in the flesh) come to take away your sin.
Shem, you seem to be trying real hard to dress up polytheism in a way as to pass it off
as being consistent with the Bible’s revelation of God . You’ve already said that there is only
one Divine Person in the Godhead ( the Father) that LDS worship, He is the only one you
worship, then there are two other Gods invited by Him to be in a council and since all three
Gods are in this one council that means they also can be rightly worshiped also.But you said
worshiping these three is’nt polytheism since polytheism is the direct worship of Gods, but
since LDS only directly worship one Person who is a God in the council therefore LDS are
are not polytheists. It’s dangerous in talking about “Gods” in reference to our Creator , once
the Godhead is said to consist of three separate Gods then that can lead to problems which will
cause a departure from what the Bible simply reveals. Now Mormon leaders claim to have the
true Godhead but it just won’t fit the Bible’s testimony because the Bible does’nt speak of
our Creator as Gods , but in Mormonism it’s Gods, millions of them with three appointed
for this earth . 4fivesola mentioned “our God”. B.Y. identified Adam as “our God” and this
led some LDS to worship Adam . Mormons say they worship Jesus but this “worship”
appears to be some kind of holy ” reverence ” rather than the same degree of direct worship
that the Father accepts . A Mormon apostle(McConkie) taught that worship in the true and
saving sense is reserved for the Father alone . There is safe ground on this issue, but it’s not
in Mormonism.
Shem, help me out here . You seem to be coming around to seeing the truth of what I have
said about what a personal relationship with Jesus means because you said that you’re all
for it being a one on one relationship and you used words like ” ask Him ” ; ” Plead with Him”;
and “saying” to Him , etc This agrees with what I’ve been saying about how a personal
relationship with Jesus involves praying to Him , to petition/ask Him , to thank/ praise Him
directly ,one on one. Yet , I find your latest comments strange because in the past on this
thread you gave the following : you said that your prayers are said to the Father ; that no where
are you told to petition the Son ,you pray to the Father in Christ’s name but it is still petitioning
the Father; that you call on the name of Christ but your prayers still addressed to the Father ;
that you would pray to Jesus if He was present but He is’nt so you pray to the Father.
Now this all sounds just like what your leadership teaches is appropriate behavior for LDS
towards Jesus as Church curriculum states : ” We always pray to our Father in heaven
and to Him alone. Our prayers are rendered in the name of the Son and communicated by the
power of the Holy Ghost. We do not pray to the Savior or to anyone else.” [ Missionary
Preparation Student Manual , Ch. 5 ] .
Shem, considering everything you’ve said thus far it is’nt clear what you believe on this
vital issue.
Mike
I have changed nothing about what I have stated in the past. We do not petition Christ, nor do we pray to him. But we call on his name in our prayers so that he will take our petition to the Father and speak on our behalf.
It is very much like law. Christ is our lawyer, and while we petition the court (the Father) it is through Christ that our petition is made. As such, we ask his approval of our petition and his assistance in taking it to the court.
We do not petition Christ, but we are still involved in a deep and personal one on one relationship with him.
As to Polytheism and all that, I really don’t think there is a term that truly captures the spirit of our doctrine. I do not like the term Polytheist, but then I do not like the term monotheist either. Henotheism is closer, but still not quite right.
However, I will say that you don’t seem to be listening to what I am saying.
There is only one Supreme Being, and that is the Father. As there is only one we only worship the one as the Supreme Being. We worship the Son as the second member of the Godhead and the Savior of the world, but not as the Supreme Being. We worship the Holy Spirit as the third member and messenger, but not as the Supreme Being.
So, if you are going to define God as the one supreme being than we believe in only one, and are thus monotheist. If you are going to define God as any being worthy of worship we are polytheists. If you are going to define it as any divine being
Mike (continued)
I never once said that the Father was the only divine being. I said he was the supreme being that even the divine worship and submit to. But I have always maintained the existence of many divine beings.
4fivesolas
I get it. I don’t agree with you and so I am not being honest. That is all that what you say amounts to. I have explained why it is proper to worship Christ as God, and yet not worship him as the supreme being. But since you disagree with the explanation it cannot actually be honest in how it deals with scripture.
As to Mark 10: 19, I am sorry but given the context it was a rebuke and Christ was most certainly telling this man not to call him good. In this context Good refers to perfection, or the source of all that is good.
We have been frequently accused of twisting the English language to fit our doctrine, and here we have you doing this very thing. You are not altering definitions, but grammar and syntax. As it is written it is a rebuke, and only by ignoring the structures of the language can you make it mean what you claim.
Shem, this thread is getting about done so this will be my last comments.
Concerning worship : I’m afraid that you’ve created some kind of difference in how worship
is rendered to the Father compared to that of the Son , and this emerges by your reasoning
in your posts here. You have agreed with your leadership that the Father is the only Divine
being that LDS are to worship , He is ” the sole object ” LDS worship. Yet the Bible reveals
that Jesus /Jehovah is also worthy to receive the same kind/ degree of worship. When people
knew the identity of Jesus ( Jn 8:58) this led to their worship of Him , and while He obviously
is not the Father , still the same kind of worship should be rendered to Him , this pleases
the Father —Heb1:6 , and is the only quality of worship He (the Father) will accept as
proper worship to His Son . This arrangement is the Father’s will.
The Bible reveals that Jesus is just as Supreme , as worthy , as the Father and should
receive true worship ,and He shares the throne –the throne of our Almighty Creator.
Concerning prayer to Jesus : as followers of Jesus Christ not only do we have the need to
pray directly to Him but He desires such behavior from us , it’s part of true worship . We’re not
worshiping or praying to Jesus because we think He is the Father , He’s not , but we still get to
participate in direct prayer to Jesus Himself exactly as we do with His Father , and reap the
benefits[1Jn 1:3]. I’m leary of those who teach : no praying to Jesus . Acts 20:28-30
Shem,
You have no Scripture to back your position – it’s all conjecture based on what Joseph Smith taught. It is not honestly dealing with what Scripture says. No one who examines the Old and New Testament for what it says will come to the conclusion that Jesus accepts worship as God because He is part of a council of gods. It’s just not in there.
On Mark 10:19 , once again we have your assertion that it is a rebuke for the young man calling Jesus good, rather than a rebuke of the young man because he thinks he himself is good. But if you read on…. which I don’t know if you have…. the Scripture makes it clear that this particular young man is being rebuked for thinking he has fulfilled the law – and Jesus goes on to point that out. Context is everything. This Scripture also points to Jesus Himself being God. For the life of me I can’t figure why this is a problem for you since several other Scripture passages refer to Jesus as God and worship Him as God – so why would this Scripture pointing to Him being God would be so important to deny by you is a mystery.
Mike
You again ignore what I have said, and fail to actually address any of the passages from the Bible that I have given.
First, stop saying that we believe that the Father is the only divine being, or even the only one worthy of worship. This is false, and we have never taught it. The Father is the only Supreme Being, but not the only divine, and not the only one worshiped.
As to the Son being equally supreme, this completely ignores what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15: 27-28, in which it is made clear that the Father has authority over the Son. It also ignores John 14: 28 in which Christ himself declares that the Father is greater than he is. You do not have scripture on your side; only your own belief.
4fivesolas
I have every scripture to support what I say, and that is the point. Paul talks more than once about three distinct Gods that make up the Godhead. Of course, the best reference is Isaiah 44: 6.
“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”
Here we have two distinct individuals talking, but declaring their singularity as one God. How is this? Because the two form a single unit or counsel, and that is the one God that they are, or that together they make.
Going back to Paul, we read “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” (1 Corinthians 8: 6) Again, a clear declaration of two distinct beings.
(continued)
There are many other passages in the Bible that clearly teach a distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. All of this clearly shows exactly what I have been saying. The doctrine of the Godhead more easily explains the various passages of the Bible, and leave less confusion and simple errors in logic than that of the Trinity.
The problem is not that I don’t’ have any scripture. The problem is that you disagree with my interpretation of scripture. As I said, you claim I am dishonest because I disagree with you. That is all there is to that accusation.
As to Mark 10: 19, we have the English language; its structure and syntax. When Christ said “Why callest thou me good,” he was addressing that part of the young man’s statement. After he addressed this, rebuking the man’s use of the term, he then answered the question that was asked. As to your entire interpretation, I disagree with it on the whole.
The man never calls himself Good, as he had called Christ. Christ never rebukes the man for this. The only rebuke is for calling Christ good. Christ clearly affirms that righteousness of the man, as he does not question his declaration of obedience. Christ declares that he lacks only one thing, and if he fulfilled that last requirement he would gain eternal life. This is not a rebuke.
Nothing you say regarding this passage makes any sense. Context is everything, and you are nowhere near the context of the passage.
I find this important because it twists this passage so that it says what it is not intended to say. I don’t care how many other passages
(correction)
I find this important because it twists this passage so that it says what it is not intended to say. I don’t care how many other passages say that Christ is God. This one doesn’t, and we should not twist any scripture.
Shem,
Who’s denying there are three persons in the Trinity? Not me. By all means, I would be a heretic to proclaim that there is no Father, or no Son, or no Holy Spirit. I affirm the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God – as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. I would also be a heretic to proclaim that there are three gods (or perhaps even millions or billions of gods) when Scripture clearly teaches there is only One True God.
Context is everything. How can I see Jesus divinity revealed in Mark 10:19? Because Jesus accepts worship as God and is proclaimed to be God in numerous other passages. If all we had was Mark 10:19 and did not know that Jesus is sinless then Mark 10:19 would not be enough to go on, but when read in light of Scipture I definitely see Jesus pointing to His divinity in this passage. Secondly, the young man was obviously rebuked for thinking he himself was good. The man says “All the law I have kept from my youth”…really? Wow, step aside Jesus, here’s another pefect man. Look at Scripture – every time someone comes to Jesus and says “look how good I am” Jesus preaches the Law and reveals their sin and cuts them down. However, when those who knew their sin came and said, have mercy on me Lord a sinner, Jesus gives grace, mercy, and forgiveness. This is the pattern, over and over – for the pharisees, truly the most righteous of the time, Jesus brings the Law and judgement. For prostitutes seeking God’s mercy, He brings forgiveness and eternal life.
The Scripture is actually Mark 10:17 – 22
And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
Reading this passage I do think that this young man was close to repentance and acknowledging his sin – he went away sad. I do think it is very possible that, by Jesus mercy and grace, this young man will have eternal life with God – we don’t know what happend after that in his life. If he had immediately cried out ‘I am greedy and guilty of idolatry – Lord, have mercy on me a sinner!’ Jesus would have given Him forgiveness and eternal life right then and there.
By the way Shem – Jesus is perfection, the source of all goodness. So yes, absolutely, He is good. He is the great I AM.
And Shem, notice how Jesus response points the man away from the young man’s own works and to God?
The man asks: “Good teacher, what MUST I DO to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus answers: “Why do you call me good? There is none good except God alone.” Notice how Jesus points the young man away from his own following of the law and to God – who ALONE is good? Look at the entire theme of this chapter – Mark 10. Jesus allows children to come to him for blessings (after the apostles had mistakenly rebuked those bringing the children)and says we must all come to Him as children. What can children bring? Nothing. We bring nothing to God for our salvation – we must depend on/trust in God’s provision in Christ’s death and resurrection for our salvation. Like children. What MUST we do to inherit eternal life? Nothing – trust Jesus promises like children. He alone is good.
4fivesolas
The point is that he doesn’t point the man away from his own works. He clearly accepts the mans works. If he didn’t why did he not say so? He clearly accepts what the man has done up to that point, but teaches him that there is still more to be done.
The two parts of Christ’s response make no sense when you confuse them as you do.
Reading this passage I think that if the young man had gone and sold all he had and followed Christ he would have received eternal life. This is what Christ says. If the man had simply admitted that he didn’t want to sell it all he would not have received eternal life, because that is not what Christ told him was required.
Your reading of the text twists what it says.
“Jesus is perfection, the source of all goodness. So yes, absolutely, He is good.”
Then why did he tell the man not to call him Good?
As to the trinity, I know what you believe, and it is very similar to what I believe. However, the Bible clearly teaches three separate beings. Not three manifestations of the same being, as is taught in the trinity, but three separate beings. This understanding more easily explains the scriptures than the doctrine of the Trinity. The only reason you say this is not honest is because it does deny the trinity, and thus contradicts your belief.
Shem, I do not believe in three “manifestations” as you said. Please do not put words in my mouth. I believe in three co-eternal persons – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – who are the One True God of Scripture. I do not believe in three separate beings, since this is not supported by Scripture. But one God, three persons sharing the essence or being of God. This is what God has revealed about His nature, and I accept His revelation.
Read the entire chapter of Mark 10. The meaning of works/Law versus grace and mercy is revealed in this chapter, and is best summed up by the bringing of infant children to Jesus – and Jesus saying that we must come to him as small children – in other words, we must come trusting completely in God alone for eternal life, not thinking we can do one single thing to achieve eternal life.
Jesus points the young man to God alone who is perfect – thus immediately undercutting this righteous young man you thinks he is good.
I think your reaction to this story is telling – you think eternal life is found in doing good works. While Jesus tells us to come and trust as children. Jesus told the young man 1) no one is good but God (in other words – hey buddy you’re not good!!!) and 2) Jesus went straight to reveal the mans sin and how he could not fulfill God’s law – (hey buddy, you’re greedy and think life is about money!!! Repent – you don’t know it, but you are a sinner and don’t think you are – you think you’re good like God!!!)
Shem,
If Jesus asked me “why do you call me good? There is none good except God alone.” I would answer “Lord Jesus, eternal Son of the Living God, I call you good because you are God, the great I AM, come in the flesh. I confess you are my Savior, the Messiah come to save the world. I call you good because you alone are good – have mercy on me a sinner.”
Here is one of the confessions of sin we do in church: http://weedon.blogspot.com/2009/11/confiteor-i-confess.html
4fivesolas
Three in one essence amount to three manifestations; how else to you explain the events at Christ’s baptism?
I really don’t care what terminology you use, it is not what God revealed, but what man has taught for far too long, and is false.
Now, I don’t know where you get you interpretation of what it means to accept the Kingdom as child, but I have to say again that you are clearly misreading the passage. However, as you have been doing this from the start, and I see no real likelihood of you ever admitting this I am not going to argue this anymore. The discussion has become pointless and you continue to try and twist the words of this chapter to fit your doctrine.
As to how you would respond to Christ, and I think you would be surprised at his reaction. I doubt he would be pleased at all, for he just told you that only the Father is God, and yet you are trying to justify your words in spite of his correction?
However, you have yet to actually answer my question. Why did Christ tell the man not to call him good?
I believe in three persons, one God. “Manifestations” does not accurately describe Biblical belief. Nor does three gods. There is only one God – revealed in Scripture as three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Jesus did not tell the young man not to call Him good. He ASKED why do you call me good? There is none good except God alone. Immediately pointing the young man away from what he asked – what MUST I DO to inherit eternal life? Pointing the man to God alone who is good. Eternal life is found in God alone, and not in our works of righteousness. Our works God declares are filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). Read Romans 5 – it’s all in Scripture for those who will hear.
All three persons are present at Jesus baptism – this is a powerful argument for the Divine Trinity. And in Christian baptism the name of God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is placed upon us. We are baptized into Christ’s death, given the Holy Spirit, our sins are washed away, and we are anointed with the name of God.
Shem, honestly you have failed to give me any reason to not see you as a polytheist . You’ve
tried to make Mormon doctrine appear consistent with the Bible’s testimony about God but
it’s not a good fit . I mentioned that in Mormonism the Father is the one Divine Person in
the Godhead that is the sole object of worship ( that comes straight from Church curriculum )
and you proceed to clarify that by saying He is the only “Supreme Being” that LDS worship,
but that the other members of the Godhead can also be worshiped . This implies that Jesus
is’nt rendered the same kind or degree or quality of worship that the Father is due because he
is not the “Supreme” person in the Godhead. That is wrong . Jesus fulfills a different office
as the Son but He is no less “supreme” , He shares all the Father’s glory , power and
authority and one way this truth is revealed is how Jesus shares the throne with the Father.
Your attempt to prove your point by using scriptures where Jesus is speaking
as the Servant of all , our Savior or where He is said to be “subject ” to His Father
do not prove your point if understood in context , they don’t detract from the fact that
scripture reveals that the I AM ,our Creator, Jehovah God , was worshiped as the
Most High, Supreme God in the O.T. came to earth and subjected Himself to being a servant .
Rightly understood statements about this can prevent the false view of Him supposedly
possessing less authority or being less Supreme as God than the Father in the Godhead.
4fivesola’s and I have tried to explain this truth to you.
4fivesolas
The evidence of the presence of three members of the Godhead at Christ’s baptism is the greatest contradiction of the trinity. This also proves the manifestations is an appropriate term, as in this setting you have the Father manifesting as a voice, the Son as a man, and the Holy Ghost as a dove. Three very separate manifestations of deity, and yet you keep claiming they are all one being.
Mike
I have never outright denied polytheism. I have denied the connotations associated with it, and prefer not to use the term. We do believe in many divine beings. We do worship three divine beings. However, that worship is the worship of one divine counsel or presidency. Look at it however you want, it does not change the truth of the doctrine.
There is one God, and that is the Godhead. It is comprised of three distinct beings, but it is still only one God. The truth of this should be easily seen in the fact that it fits every verse of the Bible perfectly, leaving no need for confusing explanations.
Now, I realize nothing I say is going to make you understand this. I mean, you have find a way to rationalize those verse of the Bible that clearly put the Son as being under the authority of the Father, and not equal to him. When you are so intent on not seeing the truth that is so obviously taught in the Bible then there is nothing more I can do.