In the last General Conference, Apostle Russell M. Nelson gave a talk titled “Ask the Missionaries! They Can Help You!” (Apparently there were lots of exclamation points in this talk!!!)
Earlier on the first day of the conference, President Thomas S. Monson had explained that 18-year-old males and 19-year-old females were now qualified to become missionaries (instead of 19 and 21). The news was very exciting for many Mormons, as the number of applications went up by 471% within just a few weeks. It will not be surprising to me if the church has 100,000 missionaries by next year, especially since so many more females are applying.
Nelson said that “missionaries can help in many ways.” First of all, he said, they can help those who want to do genealogical work. Honestly, I doubt many of the teenaged missionaries have ever looked up their family records. Yes, their parents and grandparents, maybe, but how many 18-year-old boys know much about a science that is largely learned through experience?
Next, Nelson said the missionaries can help members who are not presently participating in church functions. Perhaps with so many missionaries, the teenagers can go around to the less active members’ homes and ring the doorbell a few minutes before the church service to make sure they get there on time. Really, though, can most of these teens know what it’s like to doubt whether “The Church” is true? Most of them have merely parroted their parents’ faith, probably attending seminary classes and going with the flow. Now that the boys will move straight from high school to the mission field, they may have very little time to think through their faith and see if it’s true.
Recently a pair of missionaries came to my house. One was 21 who grew up in the Mormon Church. He became a missionary because, finally, he received a testimony about the church just a few months before. (I wonder if this was not more of an issue that he couldn’t get any dates with nice Mormon girls.) Off, then, he went to the MTC. The other was 19, a more traditional missionary. Neither had any kind of exposure to Evangelical Christianity. By moving the age requirement down, it will be interesting to see the impact upon these younger men and women, some of whom will be seriously challenged in their faith for the first time at a younger age.
A third benefit to talking to the missionaries, Nelson said, is that “some of you may want to know how to conquer an addiction or live longer and enjoy better health.” How many teenagers have conquered an addiction? Honestly, I’ve never met a missionary who I thought had ever imbibed or inhaled, let alone had an addiction. Their lack of experience in these types of matters does not make them experts in conquering addictions. As far as better health, was Nelson serious? I’ve seen the missionaries stuffing themselves at Golden Corral or getting another soda at the fountain at McDonalds. I hear that they eat plenty of Top Ramen and Mac and Cheese during their missions. These are teen-agers, for Pete’s sake! How are they going to teach me how to live longer?
Fourth, if “you feel a gnawing emptiness, without direction or purpose,” Nelson promised that the missionaries can help. Unfortunately, the missionaries have very little practical spiritual experience besides their own faith. Most can’t tell me the different between the Qu’ran and the Tripitaka. They have never looked into Zen or know the fundamentals of Evangelical Christianity. All they know is what they have experienced, which for most of them is TBM (True Blue Mormonism). They know the standard lines (i.e. Joseph Smith was a true prophet, the Book of Mormon is true, Thomas S. Monson is true, and yes, anything connected to Mormonism is true), but they really don’t know why. Their critical thinking skills are not fully functional yet. How do they really know if what they are believing is true? The pat answer: “I have prayed about it and know it is true.” This just isn’t good enough.
Nelson continued, saying that the missionaries can also help if “you have concerns about your family” by helping with the “strengthening of marriages and families.” However, these young men and women have never been married. How are they qualified to somehow become marriage/family counselors? According to Nelson, they “can also help you with your desire for greater knowledge.” But most missionaries have had no more than a year of college, and as I mentioned before, soon the missionaries will be knocking on our doors right out of high school. I have taught high schoolers, and while many of them are bright, their knowledge is not necessarily higher than those whose doors they are knocking on.
Finally, Nelson said that in a recent study “Latter-day Saints were the most knowledgeable about Christianity and the Bible.” Why is it, then, that missionaries with whom I converse have no idea about the passages in the Bible that say there is only one God? That they think the Trinity means one God in three gods? That they have the idea that salvation by grace is nothing more than resurrection from the dead? That they think the Bible is filled with many contradictions and errors? Honestly, I doubt many of them have ever studied the Bible except for passages that were required reading in seminary and missionary training.
No, Mr. Nelson, the missionaries are of little service to those who have studied their Bibles. My only hope with lowering the age of the missionaries is that I might get more visits from them. Maybe I could help them!
This, in a way, is good news. Since I’ve read that as high as 50% of missionaries end up leaving the church after their missions, perhaps the rate will be higher yet as these very young, very inexperienced missionaries hit the streets. They are ill prepared for any kind of challenges that they will encounter. They will only have their mantra to fall back on when faced with the truth that is only found in Jesus. I feel sorry for them.
canuck
I think that Nelson is living in a dream world of his own making. There’s a lot of idealizing of these MM; their knowledge and skill set.
I bought some Super Glue at Walmart today and the checker joked, “Are you eighteen?” I asked why and she said you have to be eighteen to buy it. I said, “I’d love to be eighteen again.” She said, “I don’t think I would.” She had a point. I was pretty dumb and immature at eighteen. I hadn’t figured out anything much about life at that age.
On-the-other-hand, I have occasion to listen stealthily to young adults quite often. I’m amazed at how confident and knowledgeable they appear. They wax eloquent on all sorts of topics with sure fire assurance that what they are saying is the truth. They don’t have a clue.
There was a recent survey done on the narcissism of young adults. Take the time to click on the link and tell me that Nelson isn’t idealizing a generation, many of whom consider themselves gifted but have very little proof to offer to support this notion.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/01/08/are-raising-generation-deluded-narcissists/
Missionaries are of great service, not because they have worldly experience, which seems to be the most basic criteria of this article, but because they have the spirit of God, and the promise that they will be guided as needed in their work of spreading the gospel and perfecting the saints.
I don’t need to know anything about the Qu’ran in order to teach the peace and fulfillment that comes with the true gospel.
I don’t need to have doubted the church to understand what doubt is, as all people have felt doubt at one time or another.
I don’t have to have had an addiction to understand them, as many people have relatives and friends who have suffered such. Also, not all addictions are substance based, and I think most men and women in high school have experienced some kind of addiction (I know I did).
I don’t need to have been married to have seen and experienced marriage, or family life. I grew up in a family, have several older brothers and sisters, as well as other ward members who were married.
I think it is naive to think that because one is young and not as experienced that they cannot offer insight, or at least help a person find that insight in other places.
I am reminded of the book of Job, when Elihu first stood to speak he gave great wisdom.
“I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.” (32: 7-9)
It seems that people today have a habit of underestimating the youth of the world, I think they will be shocked at just how powerful the spirit is with these young men and women as they come out of high school.
I have had missionaries at my door several times now. A little older than just out of high school and the last ones that knocked at the door were told I would speak with them if they would honestly tell me who their god is. The answer? “He’s our heavenly father.” Seriously? They either didn’t have a clue who their god is or they were lying. To me, this is the most important question. I explained who my God is and who His Son is and the response? “Oh that’s the Trinity right?” I then explained who their god is, a man who lived on a world like us, and through his good works progressed to godhood and together with many spirit wives somehow procreate spirit babies to be sent to his world to gain bodies and that it’s the goal of LDS men to become a god of his own world and with his wives populate his world. Response? “I’ve never heard that before.” Why would they tell me they had never heard of that before? Adam/God doctrine? “I’ve never even heard of that!” on and on it went. These kids need to be taught about these doctrines in the MTC before they head out. I think it’s horrible to send them unprepared for what they will face. Is it any wonder that 50% go inactive or leave when they get home? They find out the truth or parts of it on their missions when faced with people who not only know the Bible but have also researched Mormonism. These kids have been taught a warm and fuzzy version of Mormonism and have led a very sheltered life in Mormonism and are not prepared for the world outside of it.
Please tell me why I would ever want an 18 year old to help me with any kind of addiction or give me marital advice on my 24 year marriage? Why would people honestly ask these kids to help them with the problems of life? That’s what Doctors and trained Therapists are for. I do agree with canuck54, this is a good thing, LDS kids will be exposed to the truth about Mormonism a year or two sooner and can begin the process out of the church a bit sooner.
Wow Shem you are so right , they are great for moving furniture
Shem wrote:
‘ …….but because they have the spirit of God, and the promise that they will be guided as needed in their work of spreading the gospel and perfecting the saints.”
Boy are you living in a major dream world. Can you explain to us who the spirit of God is in Mormonism and how this spirit differs from the Spirit as revealed in the Bible? From my reading of Mormon sources there is the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit in Mormonism. Are they both “a god”. No the MM aren’t led by the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. They are led by their imagination and the energy that’s generated from emotion.
Also:
“I don’t need to know anything about the Qu’ran in order to teach the peace and fulfillment that comes with the true gospel.” Pure Mormon sloganeering!
Also:
“I think most men and women in high school have experienced some kind of addiction…” Well give us some statistics on that “most”. That would mean that over 50% of teenagers would have an addiction.
Also:
“I think it is naive to think that because one is young and not as experienced that they cannot offer insight, or at least help a person find that insight in other places.”
Pure, absolute nonsense. You are the naive one. You think that young people know how to direct people in how to access resources in order to find assistance? Most adults can’t do that.
Also:
“It seems that people today have a habit of underestimating the youth of the world, I think they will be shocked at just how powerful the spirit is with these young men and women as they come out of high school.”
Shem you’re out of your element here. As long as your giving your opinion about Mormons doctrine you can sort of pretend that you know what you’re talking about. Your above post is incredibly naive and nothing more than wishful thinking.
Ironman said
Shem is super spiritualizing all of this thinking that is these MM really have the “spirit” it will make up for any lack of maturity, experience, knowledge or skill.
I can see where these MM would really get frustrated and discouraged if they are fed lines like this. We had a former Mormon post here some time ago, who addressed this very topic. I wish I had his posts available. It would be good to copy them here. His name was “fmelo” He talked about how he’d put all this pressure on himself to be in the spirit and more often than not he’d just get frustrated by the whole process. It’s totally bogus and part of the Mormon flim-flam.
Mormons like to talk about how they “felt the spirit”. What they felt were their own emotions produced via a manipulated environment and psudo-spiritual ambiance. There isn’t a religion in the world where-by the believers “feel the spirit”. It’s what is used to manipulate people and make them think they are having legitimate spiritual experiences.
I feel sorry for these MM kids. They are being sold a bill of goods and when they come up short they think it’s their fault.
I’ve talked with over a dozen Mormon Missionaries and there was only one who was really
arrogant . They seem to be sincere and dedicated young people. Unfortunately for them that
is not enough to validate the gospel they are sharing with the public . They follow men who
claim to be modern day counterparts to those men who Jesus sent out to preach the gospel
of salvation [ Rom 1:16] 2000 years ago. But what is really bizare with these young Missionaries
is that upon asking them questions about their gospel there were some which they refused
to answer because of being forbidden to do so [ Temple secrets ] . This was one huge reason
how I could see the difference their gospel was , and how Paul’s warning in Gal 1:8 came alive
right before my eyes. The gospel of Jesus restored by a prophet in the latter days which has
secret inside information purposely kept from to the public’s ears by Missionaries ?
As I asked Missionaries about this issue the look on their faces told me all I needed to know .
My heart goes out to these young people in the mission they’ve accepted by submitting to
counterfeit apostles of these latter days . May they run into Christians who love them and
witness the truth about Jesus and His authentic gospel of salvation to them .
Shem said , ” I don’t need to know anything about the Quran in order to teach the peace and
fullfillment that comes from teaching the true gospel .”
I could’nt agree more , and it’s a great reason why no one has to know anything about the Book
of Mormon in order to teach the true saving gospel of Jesus Christ.
Kate
I believe we have heard this story before.
I don’t anyone is ready to be attacked because of what they believe, and no one enjoys hostility directed towards them.
These young men and young women are not out looking for a fight, so when you instigate one you are not going to get them at their best.
Falcon
You are obviously one of the many who thinks that the youth of the world are all ignorant fools who should sit in a corner and let you indoctrinate them as to how wise you are. Personally I find your arrogance overshadows any naivety I might have.
I know the children of today. I have interacted with them, taught them, learned from them. They are intelligent people, and are only naive to things because people like you refuse to accept their intelligence and thus keep them from learning and progressing as they should.
I will be honest. Those younger than me are much more at ease with the technology of today, and can help anyone in this area, especially the elderly who did not grow up with it. Only a fool believes that the old always know more, just as Elihu told us. But it seems you are more like Job’s other friends.
Mike
I know you believe you don’t need the Book of Mormon. Personally, since you are teaching your doctrine I agree. No one needs to understand the Book of Mormon to learn the doctrine of most of Christianity. But they do if they are to learn the doctrines of the LDS church.
Shem,
You’re living in a Mormon dreamland; supposing that these kids have all of these attributes, knowledge and skill. I teach college students and am in the K-12 environment on a weekly basis so don’t tell me about the youth.
Your attributing all sorts of knowledge and skills to kids who are basically green as grass. Great kids? Yes indeed. A ton of potential? Yes. In the words of the kids from the backseat while on vacation, “Are we there yet?” Absolutely not!
So they’re technologically savy? What’s that? Just because a kid spends hours in the basement playing video games and texting doesn’t amount to much in the real world, except that they aren’t developing social skills.
You spout a bunch of spiritual platitudes that are meaningless, shallow and I would say dangerous. It’s dangerous because you believe that these kids are capable of doing things that they have not been trained to do or may not even have the aptitude. But repeating things like, “They have the spirit.” makes you feel good as you fill your own head with misguided and ignorant conclusions.
You are as delusional as this guy making his speech about the MM.
What can be concluded from Shem’s remarks is that all it really takes to be competent is enthusiasm, sincerity, good intentions and a bunch of religious platitudes as fuel.
Just think of all of the things that these MM are said to be competent at. Man it makes you wonder why people go to college and other training institutions when all you need is a few weeks at a MM indoctrination center.
So from the article we see that this Mormon authority believes that these MM are experts at “genealogical work”, “know how to conquer an addiction or live longer and enjoy better health”, ….. if “you feel a gnawing emptiness, without direction or purpose,”these young people can put you on the right track. Nelson promised that the missionaries can help. “If “you have concerns about your family” by helping with the “strengthening of marriages and families, and the MM are”the most knowledgeable about Christianity and the Bible”.”
Again, isn’t it just amazing what a few weeks of pep talks and learning how to do an LDS sales pitch will do for you. No wonder Mormons are known for latching on to every multi-level marketing program that comes down the pike.
Mormons are delusional. Just believe something and it will be so because you want it to be.
These are kids many of whom have been raised in the Mormon bubble. They are programmed to repeat the five points of the Mormon testimony from the time they are toddlers. Is it any wonder that they get disillusioned and half of them drop out of Mormonism.
I’m really excited about the NFL playoffs tomorrow. I’m sincere and devoted to my team. I have a ton of enthusiasm and good intentions. I’m sincere and forthright. I’m a devoted follower of my team. Maybe they’ll let me coach or play QB.
Shem, you made a great point as to why we don’t need the Book of Mormon ( or the other LDS
“scripture” ) in order to teach the peace and fulfillment that comes with teaching the true
gospel . Simple and to the point . The gospel of salvation that Jesus’ apostles spread in their
travels accomplished what it was intended to do — Rom 1:16 —and it’s still able to accomplish
that same thing today . No secret ceremonies required then nor today . We simply don’t need
Mormon prophets or Mohammed , or Warren Jeffs, or Christopher Nemelka, or……
I’m born again by the Spirit of God because of my faith in Jesus Christ. What does that qualify me for? It qualifies me for eternal life.
It doesn’t qualify me as a marriage counselor, an expert on nutrition and fitness or even as an expert in Christianity and the Bible. In order to do any of those things, I would need to have training and experience.
Nelson was just doing a puff job on the MM. He was attributing all of this knowledge and skill to the MM based on their belief in Mormonism. That is, that the restored gospel is so powerful that it can make a MM competent in areas that they’ve never been trained in. My guess is that many of them wander about like lost sheep. It’s nothing more than the Mormon rite of passage that most cultures have.
So I guess we are all supposed to allow these Mormon Missionaries into our homes to unload their beliefs on us but don’t anyone dare ask them a simple, honest question or share your beliefs with them or you are attacking them. Sounds about right, the Mormon charge of persecution!
I am surrounded by teenagers with my own kids and nieces and nephews and their reasoning skills crack me up sometimes. There are loads of things that we learn only through time and experience. I still think Shem is younger than he has led me to believe. How old are you Shem?
Mike is right, we don’t need any of these people and we don’t need kids knocking on our doors to know God. The Word of God is available to us all and is the most sold book on the market. I’m certainly not going to look to an 18 year old kid for Biblical interpretation no matter how spiritual the LDS say these kids are. Believe it or not, just because you are out on a LDS mission doesn’t give you special spiritual powers. I know that Mormons put these kids on a pedestal and missions are a huge deal. Boys especially are looked down upon if they don’t go on a mission. I also know that a lot of these kids go on missions to please their parents or girlfriend and hate every minute of it. That’s not someone I want to learn doctrine from.
Actually, the Book of Mormon helps little if you want to learn the doctrines of the LDS Church.
For example, the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus should have already come. At least, that is what one Mormon “apostle” prophesied, (adding that the Book of Mormon was false if his prophecy didn’t come true):
The Book of Mormon contains many prophecies, yet future, with names, places, and dates, so definite, that a child may understand; indeed, it is one of the peculiar characteristics of the Book of Mormon, that its predictions are plain, simple, definite, literal, positive and very express, as to the time of their fulfilment. Notice a prediction of Nephi, page 125, second edition. “For after the book of which I have spoken, shall come forth, and be written unto the Gentiles, and sealed up again unto the Lord, there shall be many, which shall believe the words which are written, and they shall carry them forth, unto the remnant of our seed, (the Indians) and then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us; how that we came on from Jerusalem; and that they are the descendants of the Jews; and the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be declared among them; wherefore they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers; and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers; and then shall they rejoice for they shall know, that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God. And their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people. And it shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered also shall begin to believe in Christ; and they shall begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as many as shall believe in Christ, shall also be a delightsome people; and it shall come to pass, that the Lord God shall commence his work among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, to bring about the restoration of his people upon the earth. * * * For the time speedily cometh, that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy, and he will spare his people.”
Also page 121, 2d edition. “Behold that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof: for the kingdom of the devil must shake; and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance. or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger and perish; for behold at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.”
Also, page 122 2nd edition. “Woe unto all those who tremble and are angry, because of the truth of God; for behold he that is built upon the rock, receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth, lest he shall fall.” Also. page 123 2nd edition. “Woe be unto the Gentiles, says the Lord God of Hosts; for notwithstanding I shall lengthen out my arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me.” See also, page 514, and read the fate of our nation, and the fate of the Indians of America; in the day that the Gentiles should reject the fullness of the gospel.–(The Book of Mormon.) See also, page 526, where a sign is given, and the time clearly set for the restoration and gathering of Israel from their long dispersion, namely, the coming forth the Book of Mormon, should be the sign; and in the day this work should come forth, should this great event commence among all nations. Also, p. 527, where all who will not hearken to the Book of Mormon, shall be cut off from among the people; and that too, in the day it comes forth to the Gentiles and is rejected by them. And not only does this page set the time for the overthrow of our government and all other Gentile governments on the American continent, but the way and means of this utter destruction are clearly foretold; namely, the remnant of Jacob will go through among the Gentiles and tear them in pieces, like a lion among the flocks of sheep. Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off. This destruction includes an utter overthrow, and desolation of all our Cities, Forts, and Strong Folds–an entire annihilation of our race, except such as embrace the Covenant, and are numbered with Israel.
Now, Mr. Sunderland, you have something definite and tangible, the time, the manner, the means, the names, the dates; and I will state as a prophecy, that there will not be an unbelieving Gentile upon this continent 50 years hence; and if they are not greatly scourged, and in a great measure overthrown, within five or ten years from this date, then the Book of Mormon will have proved itself false. And furthermore, as Mr. LaRoy Sunderland has lied concerning the truth of Heaven, the fulness of the Gospel; and has blasphemed against the word of God, except he speedily repent, and acknowledge his lying and wickedness, and obey the message of eternal truth, which God has sent for the salvation of his people. God will smite him dumb, that he can no longer speak great swelling words against the Lord; and a trembling shall seize his nerves, that he shall not be able to write; and Zion’s Watchman shall cease to be published abroad, and its lies shall no longer deceive the public; and he will wander a vagabond on the earth, until sudden destruction shall overtake him; and if Mr. La Roy Sunderland enquires, when shall these things be? I reply, it is nigh thee–even at thy doors; and I say this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. (Parley P. Pratt, Mormonism Unveiled, p.14 – p.16, 1838)
You mean the BoM isn’t true? Nuts! Isn’t it suppose to be something like the most correct book ever written? Well this is a downer for Mormons. Let me get this straight. The BoM is just sort of a pretend book? There’s got to be some way around this. Can’t Mormons just pretend it’s true? Mormonism does a lot of good right so even if it’s not true can’t they just forget this troublesome fact?
Now do these MM, who are the smartest, most knowing, and highly skilled young people on the planet earth, know this? It is sort of troublesome that the prophecies in the BoM aren’t true. There’s got to be some way to work around this. There’s no archeological evidence, no DNA evidence, no linguistic evidence to support the BoM and now we learn the prophecies aren’t true either?
What a surprise!
My guess is that MM will tell wavering Mormons who are having a crisis of faith to just keep on believing it’s true. The feeling will come back. Maybe. Sometime, in the future. If not, would that be another false prophecy?
grindael,
You’re awesome. All of this doesn’t matter though because Mormons believe in continuing revelation and I’m sure somewhere some prophet has had something to say about the failed prophecies of not only the BoM but of Joseph Smith himself.
“[T]he coming of the Lord, which is nigh – even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” Joseph Smith, History of Church, v2, p 182 (Feb. 14, 1835)
Yep that happened. Just like Warren Jeff’s end of the world prophecy happened last month. There are so many failed prophecies that Mormons sweep under the rug or claim was just that prophet’s opinion. Isn’t continuing revelation and “we only follow the current prophet” wonderful?
falcon asked this question: “Now do these MM, who are the smartest, most knowing, and highly skilled young people on the planet earth, know this?”
He touches on something important and very insidious about Mormonism.
Having been an active, 40+ year Mormon, BYU graduate, temple attending, church dude (blah, blah, blah), I can’t tell you how difficult it was (and continues to be) to overcome this you’re-the-greatest-generation-and-the-Lord-has-reserved-you-for-the-end-times-because-you-were-so-valiant-in-the-preexistence mentality. Mormon young people are spoon fed this stuff from the time they are little. It results in a kind of spiritual sense of entitlement that goes way beyond arrogance. I have found it is one of the most powerful internalized concepts at keeping people tied to Mormonism. When the Holy Spirit started the churning process for me, I hung on and on because we are special–I am special. It took a long time for it to distill upon me that it is all about God and not about me and my exaltation that is held in the balance. Very insidious stuff, indeed.
Tom,
Great insight and contribution. You former Mormons with your experience within the system make my day when you post. It’s very encouraging.
What you have offered here was something I didn’t know regarding the indoctrination process of the Mormon youth. I always thought that the “burning in the bosom” and other faux spiritual experiences is what fueled the commitment to Mormonism.
This idea of being “special” is what permeates this generation anyway so add on the spiritual special designation and we have a bunch of young people living in a dream world. I’ll bet that being fed this pap also has a guilt trip attached to it if these boys and girls don’t perform as the gifted and talented special people they have been told they are.
I would say there must be a tremendous “performance gap” with these kids. They’ve been told how special they are and then what happens when they aren’t hitting their numbers goal while out on the missionary trail. I’ll bet a lot of these kids just blow the whole experience off and go surfing or something.
Falcon,
I think your on to something. I saw an LDS missionary on a bus once. He looked very angry and was in the process of stommping down the middle of the bus, taking off his tie and suit. I am not sure but it looked like he was heading off with someone else for a non-missionary activity. It was in such a manner in which I think he was probably going to leave the mission and go home, or somewhere else. He looked like he had it. I am sure it happens.
You said that there isnt a religion in which people say they “feel the spirit”. Thats not true at all. Watch any tv evangelist show, they constantly talk about being moved by the holy spirit to do this, or say that, further some even speak about receiving some ‘word of truth’ about this person or situation. Or a message of healing for someone etc… Also about how the spirit gave them the conviction that they were wrong about something, that the christian faith is true, or the bible is true etc….Its not such an isolated experience for nonLDS christians to experience the spirit as a source to find the faith.
There are some non Christians that have experiences of the spirit, or things of a spiritual nature that cause them to believe that something is true. Some its just a matter of tradition, like the folks that live below me are hindu. I am pretty sure that they have been hindu for generations. I dont see much difference between that and christians who have been christians for generations, that take it as a matter of fact without much experience with anything else.
Enki,
Spiritual experiences can be very subjective and reinforcing for those who seek them. Mormonism is built on spiritual feelings which Mormons believe are a direct message from the Mormon god. I believe that’s why it’s so difficult for some Mormons to rationally examine Mormonism. If they received the “burning in the bosom” while reading the BoM and concluded based on that physical/emotional feeling that the BoM is true, what do they do when they are faced with evidence that it’s not true?
There in lies the problem with Mormonism. Some one gets a charge out of the BoM and then they are obligated to believe everything in Mormonism. There is no picking and choosing. Suddenly the Mormon prophets and apostles are true and all of the teachings and practices past and present are true. If they waver in their commitment to Mormonism it is said to be Satan leading them away from, yes, the truth.
So the big question is, “How does a Mormon reconcile their spiritual feelings with reality?” It’s simple. Deny reality.
That’s what’s known as cognitive dissonance.
Just think what it’s like to finally conclude that everything you believe in and feel is phoney. No wonder so many Mormons become disillusioned and end up as atheists. It’s by the grace of God that so many don’t walk away from religion and become cynical and bitter (towards God).
God bless you and may you find what you are looking for.
Falcon,
Not entirely true. For example there are liberal mormons that believe in the general premise that there is a god that takes care of everyone, but the Salt lake church isn’t the only road to salvation, and that JC isn’t the only road either. Some endorse evolution, despite that LDS scriptures support creationism. So there is plenty of picking a choosing.
Then there are sects within the restoration spectrum, there are people who believe in the BOM who are not in the Salt Lake fold. Someone at some point decided they didn’t like some teaching and started their own church. This has happened through out history, the protestant reformation for example. I just finished a history class and religion was so central to so many conflicts. From a contemporary standpoint it seems like silly points to have conflicts over, but people had a very different perspective back then.
Something more foundational…why do christians believe in the Bible? how for example do you know its ‘true’. And that when you read it your not getting a false impression as to its meaning?
Despite what you think Mormons have all the signs of being Christian.
Enki said Despite what you think Mormons have all the signs of being Christian.
What exactly are you smoking? Crack?
They are nothing like us, JS was a false prophet. His Prophets and prophecies are false. He plagiarized the BoM by taking from the Bible. Mormon doctrine has changed over the years. Prophets Like BY made false prophecies and doctrines. The BoM has changed over the years, so has most of their books, (Scripture). Their teachers and beliefs contradict the Bible. You really have no clue do you?
Enki,
I’m going to have to agree with Rick here. Mormons acknowledge a different God. I could make an entire list including that there is no similarity between who Mormons say Jesus is and who the Christian Church has claimed Him to be for the last 2,000 years. Also there is no similarity between what Mormons say God’s plan of salvation is and what the Christian Church teaches.
Now as to whether the Bible is true or not, I accept that it is true on faith. However if you want to pick-up a book like “Evidence That Demands a Verdict” and several books like it, the authors make a good case for it being true.
I believe that I’m a sinner and that my sin separates me from a Holy God. I believe that God reconciled me to Himself through my acceptance, by faith, of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. It was Jesus’ shed blood on the cross that paid the price for my sin. I accept that on faith. I believe in what Jesus said that He was the only path to the Father.
What we discuss here with Mormons is their claim that the gospel of Jesus Christ was lost and needed to be restored by Joseph Smith. We have sufficient enough evidence that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and that his restored gospel is no gospel at all.
So I guess if you want to join in the discussion here, we’re not talking about whether Christianity is true or not. There is a time and a place to have such a discussion, but not here.
We are discussing the falseness of the Mormon claims. That is, that the gospel as revealed by the Bible is not the “real” gospel, but the Mormon gospel is (the real gospel) as restored by Joseph Smith.
Quite frankly I don’t think any of us want to discuss whether or not Christianity is true. We could but that’s not our mission. Why don’t you start a blog that addresses your particular interest? I’m not saying that as a put-down. It’s just that we have a different mission here.
Enki,
I have said before, I have been to Israel, I am going back again for 17 days this Oct. Many on this site have also been to Israel. According to the Book of Mormon, people from the BoM lived in Israel hundreds of years before Jesus was Born.
Yet When I was in Israel I spoke with hard core orthodox Jews who said they no nothing of the Mormons, and their is zero evidence they ever existed. Their is no evidence from archaeological sources for Mormonism, and lastly, their is no such thing and no evidence of the reformed Egyptian language.
How can we get “added” Scripture from a language that does not exist, has never existed, and their is no record of it ever existing?
Rick B,
Well how hypocritical, you violated rule#1 of the comments policy. Don’t attack me in substitution for attacking my statement. And no, I was not smoking crack in making the statement. The bible has plagiarized material from other sources, so dont give me that.
And of course the judao-christian tradition as changed over the years over many doctrines. So mormonism follows in the footsteps of other religions.
I will give you this…
Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.”
Alma 32:21 “And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.”
So both believe in things for which there is little physical evidence…otherwise how could there be either statement? Its a matter of faith. Neither one has physical evidence for the ressurrection of Jesus, which is supposed to be the ultimate evidence for the christian faith. (1 Corinthians 15:17)
Several years back I read the book “An Irreverent Curiosity: In Search of the Church’s Strangest Relic in Italy’s OddestTown ” by David Farley. It goes into the problem of finding a relic of saints which have assended into heaven. The problem is they don’t leave a whole lot of evidence. So for saints like Mary, there are locks of hair, milk, nail clippings, clothing etc… For Jesus, clothes, hair, baby teeth, nail clippings, bread, blood, and a foreskin. The book addresses the attempt to find the foreskin from his circumcision. (Luke 2:21) There is no whole adult body to be found. But if one examined these relics, how would one identify ‘christ relics’ over regular items from other people?
Apparently this is not great evidence, as there are several foreskins which have been claimed to be the foreskin of jesus. As for other evidence (there could be more)the shroud of turin has been shown to be false. At least I am convinced that its a fraud. But there are several versions of the shroud. So Mormonism has it right that some things have to be taken on faith…
Its pretty strange but the writers of the NT anticipated that some would imagine that jesus never existed, very quickly labling a doubter as antichrist. (well duh) (2 John 1:7) But that has not stopped some from belief in Jesus, actually. Mary Baker Eddy of Christian Science has said that she would believe in christ even if he did not physicall exist.
The book of mormon addresses doubters of the existence of christ. (Jacob 7:2 Jacob 7:9) (alma 30:12) So on this major point the BOM agrees with the bible that the existence of Christ is of vital importance, and if anyone denies that they are ‘antichrist’. (duh) But this is stated like its a given fact, and not a matter of faith. But as I started in the beginning its a matter of faith, the substance of things not seen…that is what christans and mormons have in common.
Falcon,
I dont think any mormon would disagree with what you stated above. And yes, mormons and christians take their scriptures as a matter of faith. How can you identify who and what is the “christian church”. Is there a body that has been in existance for the last 2,000 years? is that catholicism? or something else? I think its very relevant if the christian faith is true. Mormons pray about it to find the truth, how do you determine what is true?
Rick B,
Orthodox jews in Israel? Of course they will deny mormonism. I am not surprised. I can just imagine that an orthodox jew would deny jesus as well. Not a great source for unbiased information about either mormonism or the christian faith. They dont recognize the Christian new testament as being inspired, and I have read from jewish webpages explaining why the NT is not inspired. From their perspective a specific rebuttal to mormonism would be redundant…if christianity is false, than mormonism is also false.
Enki you wrote:
“How can you identify who and what is the “christian church”.”
That’s very easy to do but let me first say something that I think is a major Mormon hang-up. That is that there has to be an identifiable entity, a religious denomination or sect that needs to be the “one true church”. That’s a total fallacy because there isn’t an organized and named group that can make that claim. That was Joseph Smith’s excuse for starting his own particular religion. He made all sorts of false claims in his efforts to gain a following.
So what is “the church”. The church is the Mystical Body of Christ peopled by all those who are born again by the Spirit of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Just last night I was reading the first fifteen verses or so of the first chapter of the Gospel according to John. It’s very clear by reading what John wrote who Jesus is.
Andy Watson did an excellent series of articles on the nature of God. Part of what Andy wrote dealt with the early history of the Christian church and what was taught about who Jesus is.
You can waste your time running down all sorts of empty rabbit trails but at the end of the day you have to decide if Jesus is God incarnate and if you are willing to accept, through faith, His sacrifice on the cross. The rest of what you’re chasing is, I say respectfully, a waste of time.
I heard about a rule for LDS missionaries just recently. I was talking to some sister missionaries at an LDS friend’s dinner. This was actually the second evening we had dinner with them. The sister missionaries didn’t know I was not LDS. When they asked me about my mission I informed them I was not a member. Both missionaries replied with a surprised “Really?” And the senior missionary said something like, “You sure seem like you are
I told them that I had had the lessons at least 2.5 times and we had had many sets of missionaries over the years. In a brief and obtuse way I related how I found the missionary lessons unhelpful. I told them how I had talked to several missionaries about this and how, if I was to make any headway I would need to go deeper than just the lessons. I told them how the first set I told this to didn’t really come back after that, the second set did but admitted they didn’t know what else to do than the lessons. They stopped coming soon after that.
It was then that the senior sister missionary said something like, “Yeah, we’re told to discontinue if progress stops.” I told her, “But I didn’t stop. I was willing to continue. That’s what I wanted to do, was to go further.”
I am sure some LDS here will conclude that the missionaries had spiritual discernment that I was not sincere, but that would be presumptuous and judgmental on their part.
In the end it is not the missionaries’ actions that are the point but that these “missionaries” are trained by their teachers, and thus their highest leaders, to give up on anyone who wants to do more than the prescribed lessons, a partial reading of the BoM, and pray about it.
What does that say about the LDS church? That you have to believe on their terms? That they don’t want anyone sincere and motivated enough to do their greatest investigation into the greatest truth? That they teach their missionaries to NOT go the extra mile with investigators?
As I said earlier I find the missionary lessons not only unhelpful but some of the clearest evidence against the LDS church’s claim to being true. I could elaborate in detail, but will save that for another thread.
Falcon,
Well, the catholic church claims to be the mystical body of christ. They have a webpage addressing that, and its in the catholic encylopedia. And if I read it correctly, they dont seem to be too concerned if the person is officially catholic. I believe JS thought that there were teachings that were missing, or incorrect teachings, and corrupt practices. Pretty much in line with the thought of the protestant reformation.
So what you are saying “end of the day you have to decide if Jesus is God incarnate and if you are willing to accept, through faith, His sacrifice on the cross” thats all that is important? you can get that through the LDS church, the catholic, and any christian church. Thats actually maybe the only thing in common you have with other members of the mystical body of christ.
Enki said
Rick B, In the comment policy it says to follow 1 Peter 3:15 and it recommends gentleness and respect. Please repeat the question you asked me to yourself, and ask yourself if it fits either. I suppose that might meet your definition, but it didnt sound gentle or respectful to me. Its a leading question where you made your own conclusion.
spartacus,
Thats very insightful. I think the missionaries are probably not able to do unscripted discussions on their faith. Very interesting, that is a criticism of a very famous LDS church member in the news until recently. That he does poorly in unscripted conversations, or in large crowds in unfamiliar settings. But that he does well in familiar situations, and carefully defined settings.
I am not sure what you mean by ‘deeper than the lessons’. I am not an active LDS member, but in the past I went through missionary discussions with a friend, who eventually got baptized. If I were to do it again, I would have told him to take longer and really think about it. But there is an aggressive push for conversion, and a lot of leading questions…which pushes to conversion and baptism.
I think the article was very fair. This was when I was young and optimistic and ‘on fire’ for god. But in reality I had no objective exposure to anything other than the LDS faith. I thought I did, but not really. I think back, Tim (not his real name) complained that he wasnt allowed to ask any real questions. Also that questions by the missionaries placed Tim in an ackward position for answering questions truthfully and honestly, how he really felt. I was there, and what he said was true. If his answer wasn’t fitting with LDS doctrine and practice his voice and body posture usually became defensive or perhaps crushed or ashamed. Perhaps its part of the dynamic that occurs in the missionary discussion. Pretty unfair, two trained missionaries in the verbal arts, and an LDS member who is a friend. Thats 3 against 1. LDS members always said that this sort of arrangement lead to conversion better than a cold contact, which would have been 2 against 1. I dont know if against is the right word, but I guess its fitting if its just someone wanting to know more.
Whats really unfair is that the lessons are so designed to lead to a convert. I dont remember what I was told about the process, but I think we were told its just informational, and just a ‘discussion’. But in fact its a very leading discussion, I think there is a little bit of dishonesty about that. There is no objective review of LDS doctrine in missionary lessons.
I love how people who try and defend Mormons Like to cry persecution and claim we need to be gentle with them.
Maybe you were not around when I wrote this, and I wont go over everything I said, But first off, I asked you a question, if the equates with not being gentle and respectful, then boo-hoo.
What I said prior was, Have you guys read the Bible? Paul says, Follow me as I follow Christ, Paul said and did some really harsh things, as did Jesus, But they said them to the religious leaders who were lying and deceiving people.
Paul says that if some one teaches another gospel they can go to hell, and if the dont even love the Lord Jesus they can go to hell. I guess Paul never read 1 peter 3:15?
Then show me where in the Bible Mormonism is taught? Falcon mentions that over and over, none have answered that as of yet. Mormons use the same names and terms as we do, but they teach a totally different Gospel.
Mike R keeps pointing out how the Bible warms to be aware of false prophets, I agree with him on that, But you could go so far as to say if you claim someone like a mormon is teaching a false gospel, or teaching false things, you are not following 1 peter 3:15 since your not being kind and Gentle by saying they are teaching a false gospel.
I said before, Show me from the Bible where I must hold a false prophets hand and look into their eyes and tell them I love what they are doing. The Bible talks about wolves in sheeps clothing, where did the wolf get the sheeps clothing? The wolf had to kill the sheep to get it.
Why cant we all just be grown adults, speak the truth in honesty instead of pandering to false prophets and wolves? Jesus spoke the truth even if it was harsh. I swear people are both illiterate of what was said and done in the Bible, and the ones that know care more about being PC in today’s society.
Rick B, I cant imagine Jesus asking me if I was smoking crack… thats not a great way to start a discussion about anything. And yes, I missed whatever you said prior. I have been asked that sort of question before, if I was high.
This was not by a christian, but by a pagan by the way. They simply asked that because they didn’t like what I was saying. Actually several people asked that. They also thought I made it up from a movie. Trying to dismiss a very interesting supernatural experience that I had. The odd thing was that they had a policy of NOT dismissing anyone elses reality. So, maybe one can’t count on anyone following the established rules for relating information. Rather upsetting, because I was expecting people to stop and think about it, other than just criticize that such a thing couldn’t happen. So one only asks if someone is high to distract, diminish and dismiss someone elses experience or idea. So if I understand what you are saying, there is no objective way to follow rule #1?
Rick B,
Interesting mentioning of Hell. Despite what many people think, LDS people actually use the word and the threat on select occations. This form of psychic warfare is actually what helped me come to the conclusion that Mormonism is false. I can only expect that Christians might do the same, if and when they subjectively feel that its appropriate. And for what purpose?
Enki said Several years back I read the book “An Irreverent Curiosity: In Search of the Church’s Strangest Relic in Italy’s OddestTown ” by David Farley. It goes into the problem of finding a relic of saints which have assended into heaven. The problem is they don’t leave a whole lot of evidence. So for saints like Mary, there are locks of hair, milk, nail clippings, clothing etc… For Jesus, clothes, hair, baby teeth, nail clippings, bread, blood, and a foreskin. The book addresses the attempt to find the foreskin from his circumcision. (Luke 2:21) There is no whole adult body to be found. But if one examined these relics, how would one identify ‘christ relics’ over regular items from other people?
So what was your point of saying this? I agree that the shroud of Turin is false, as to to the Body of Jesus, you wont find it since the Bible says He rose from the dead and the 40 days later he rose into heaven. As far as Baby teeth, a foreskin, Etc, The Bible does not mention that those things were ever kept as proof. And I would agree with you, how could we prove they are His.
But the Bible is Proof, the Bible was written by 40 different people, over 1000’s of years, and over many different countries. Then we have over 300 detailed Prophecies of how Jesus would die, where He would be born and live and things that would happen to Him.
Can the BoM make this claim? If you say yes, prove it. I have said this before, A couple of guys read the account in the Book of Acts about Paul dropping the ships anchor before being ship wrecked, They used the Bible and found those two anchors and gave them as a gift to the president of the island of Malta. Can you do that with the BoM?
Many mormons try and say, well the BoM has not been around that long, only a few hundred years, thats why we cannot use it for archaeological purposes, But thats lame because the BoM mentions the tower of babel and people living in Israel 500 plus years ago. So if the BoM dates back to the tower of babel why cannot we find any evidence of this?
That goes back to my point I made about being in Israel that you blew off. Yes the Jews Deny Jesus lived and do not view Him as there Savior, But they dont deny the people that lived in the bible in the OT days that tried to kill them, like the Romans for example. Why would they admit to all the other people groups, but deny the BoM people? That makes no sense, Unless they never existed.
Enki said
Then he said,
Rick,
Thats pretty easy for jews to support the OT or the torah as they call it. It just happens to overlap with what you believe. I suppose that a belief in hell is a christian sign?
Wow Enki,
You feel Mormons are Christians, But yet they way you avoid questions and serious lack of evidence makes me wonder if your a former Mormon who has posted here doing the same thing? Should I call you Parkman? Or Maybe Helen, Or a few other former Mormons who did what you do?
How can we take you serious and have honest debate if you just give lame one word replies?
Gee Rick what are you smoking? Crack!
Don’t you read what you write. Do you think about how the other person will take it. I am sure you show great respect for people when you imply that they are crack heads. Then you go on to imply that they are being persecuted when the take note of what you implied.
I wanted to repeat what you said to get your attention. It is interesting that a times it is harder to express ones’ self in writing. I wish I could observe you and see what you are really like. I might be able to say ‘You would make a pretty good Mormon, Rick.” Don’t take this wrong. It could be a compliment if you see it right. Then you could explain why you’re not. See if you can use this story as a guideline.
A city man was travelling in the west. He marveled about all the cows he saw and the different breeds. He saw a farmboy walking an animal along the road and just had to stop and ask why the cow did not have horns. The farm boy was very polite and kindly explain about the differences in breeds and the sex of the animal and which had horns and which didn’t. The last thing the boy said was ‘The reason this animal does not have horns is because it is a horse and not a cow.
I think an excellent way to look at Mormon Missionaries is to see their need , how we can help
them etc. Those Christians who are versed on Mormon doctrine well enough and who have a
genuine respect for these young people as persons can invite them home for dinner and thus
show them friendship so as to earn the right for them to listen to our testimony of Jesus . Keep
the atmosphere simple , get to know them and let them know what your hobbies and such are .
When they’re through with their mission and are able to relax more perhaps they will remember
their visit and our politeness . Remembering that the problem has never been Mormons , it’s
been MormonISM , can go a long way in how we view these young people and their need to
know the true Savior .
Enki said, Despite what you think Mormons have all the signs of being Christian.
Like Rick, Falcon, and others, I will have to disagree with your statement. First, of course, because the generalization is quite overly bold. I don’t think any of us here, upon careful reflection, would make the universal claim that Lutherans “have all the signs of being Christian”, let alone Mormons! We can all agree that not all members of a particular organization or group are guaranteed to live up to all that the organization/group stands for. To make the general statement that “Mormons have all the signs of being Christian” is too bold.
Let’s consider a modified version of your claim: “There is no attribute of a healthy Christian existence that should not be ascribed to a typical devout Mormon, specifically as a Mormon”. You would agree that’s a fair representation of your claim, yes?
Nevertheless, I have to disagree with it anyway. For instance, one attribute of a healthy Christian existence is a heartfelt yearning to worship an unqualifiedly supreme God who is the ultimate wellspring of all life, light, and love. But God the Father as described in classical Mormonism is neither unqualifiedly supreme (in that doxological language is routinely relativized – e.g., ‘God is the Most High for this world‘, or, ‘God is from everlasting to everlasting for our eternity‘) nor the ultimate wellspring (in that he attained deification in the context of pre-existing matter, pre-existing laws, and pre-existing divine virtues). Hence, a typical devout Mormon qua Mormon does not exhibit this attribute of a healthy Christian existence. Furthermore, I would add that healthy Christian existence seeks to worship God precisely for who God innately is, and not merely for his actions; but seldom do I meet a Mormon who, upon reflection, is willing to say that they can worship God for who he innately is. And so this is another attribute of healthy Christian existence that is deficient in a typical devout Mormon qua Mormon.
Further, another attribute of a healthy Christian existence is a robust integration of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit into Christian spirituality and worship as reflective of the inner life of love of the only God. But Mormonism definitely denies that there is only one God. And since Mormonism denies this sort of oneness to the persons of the Godhead, the Father and Son (for instance) are not held to have in common the inner life of the one God at all, but rather to be at best intimately involved in one another’s external lives as separate Gods. Beyond this, in denying the legitimacy of prayer directed to the Son or the Spirit, and in the numerous games traditionally played with the concept of worship, the integration in worship is dismantled in a way that, while not so serious as one would find among, say, Jehovah’s Witnesses, is still unhealthy from the standpoint of Christian life. Thus, a typical devout Mormon qua Mormon would be deficient in this attribute of healthy Christian existence.
Third, I note that healthy Christian existence is profoundly and radically grace-shaped. It is marked by an absolute sense of dependence on God to unilaterally bless, and it is marked by a firm assurance of his promise as grasped by faith. A quick analysis of the frequency in even contemporary Mormon texts of the language of “work” and “earn” and “merit”, referring to our accomplishing tasks/ceremonies to gain rewards from God, shows a deviation here. (Comparing the frequency of this sort of language against, say, the New Testament… well, it’s instructive.) The sense of dependence on God is diminished, given not just our postulated fundamental co-eval status with him but also the quest to gain higher blessings. I’d add that Mormon discourse has a disconcerting freedom in the use of “entitlement” language that seems to betray a mindset quite contrary to that cultivated in a healthy Christian life. Further, if the data informally gathered by our friends here at MRM is even remotely on target (which, of course, it assuredly is), few Mormons seem to have a strong sense of assurance regarding their eternal destiny, specifically whether they will receive glory in the Father’s presence. A healthy Christian life fosters such assurance.
I could likely think of quite a few other “signs of being Christian” (in this sense of markers of a healthy Christian life) that are deficient in a typical devout Mormon qua Mormon, precisely because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not foster them, and in many cases seeks to stifle them in profound and intentional ways. This is not to say that a quite atypical devout Mormon might not buck the trend and have a thriving Christian life; I’m personally rather confident I’ve had the pleasure of knowing one or two. Nor am I seeking to argue that all Christian denominations are fully and equally likely to cultivate the range of markers of healthy Christian life. I would argue that their general closeness is what differentiates them from sectarian movements such as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and why the latter as an institution/group/corporate body is not classified as ‘Christian’, though individual atypical members may well be – but in this case, it is in spite of the LDS Church and not due to it.
Enki said, Something more foundational…why do christians believe in the Bible? how for example do you know its ‘true’. And that when you read it your not getting a false impression as to its meaning?
Given the permissive length of comments under this post, I do think it’s worthwhile to address this question a bit more directly. I can see why you find it relevant to raise, Enki. Well, I don’t know if I can speak for “Christians” as a general class. But I can say why I believe the Bible as authentic, true scripture. (I assume that’s what you meant in this context.) Or, at least, I can sketch out a few thoughts in brief.
First, the Bible – contrary to many other religious texts (the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammapada, the Tao Te Ching, Hesiod’s Theogony, the Enuma Elish, the Pearl of Great Price) – concerns itself with the kind of God I can learn to be the true God from other sources. I enjoy reading, when I can, in the field of philosophical defenses of belief in the existence of God; currently I’m working my way through Robert J. Spitzer’s 2010 book New Proofs for the Existence of God: Contributi0ns of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy and getting a sound refresher of a few points. Suffice it to say that the sum total of the arguments I have found quite persuasive points, not just to the existence of a God, but to a God who is fundamentally unitary in being, transcendent, eternal, immaterial, intelligent, attentive, powerful, good, and – all in all – perfect in the most complete way. That excludes a great many of the religious paths that have existed on the earth. Further, given the nature of this God, it makes sense to me to expect that God would be a revelatory God, one who engages somehow with human history, given our status as self-aware moral agents, seemingly unique in the created order. Yet only a few general categories of world religion allow for such a God. I would also add that I have come to the point at which it is nearly inconceivable to me to lapse into a mode of theologizing in which I cannot cry out from the bottom of my heart, “God is love!” But, as is well known, this goes beyond saying that the character of God is contingently loving; it says that the very fundamental life of God is eternally love, and that requires relationship to be eternally a part of who God is – not just the interrelationship of two, but cooperative effort in sharing an overflow of bliss to yet another, and precisely that. In short, I cannot avoid the hallelujah that I pronounce, “God is love”; and I cannot maintain that God is love without conceding that God is eternally triune. But the only religious path in the world that caught this realization is the one where it is revealed in the Bible as scripture, and so I must accept it.
Moreover, I would add that the documents contained in the Bible have, by and large, been rightly respected as historical documents by fair-minded historians. Their provenance is approximately known; their details, where capable of validation, are solid. They fit as well as anything else. They do not just happen to exist within a historical setting, but to relate intricately and accurately to their historical setting. This is an advantage they enjoy over rival contenders (including, I would add, the Book of Mormon).
Beyond both of these, I believe in the Bible because I believe in Jesus Christ. Part of the reason why I believe in Jesus Christ is that I know that he was raised from the dead. I have investigated countless attempts to explain the origin of the Christian message in any other way. All are abject failures, some more obviously than others. Between the empty tomb, the witness of the disciples, the rate and distribution of the message’s spread… my examination has left me no responsible option other than to maintain my longstanding assent to the truth of the resurrection. I believe in Jesus Christ as risen Lord. I accept the New Testament documents because they are witnesses to Jesus Christ by those who knew him and were part of the early apostolic community. I accept the Old Testament documents because they pointed forward to him and were ratified by him.
All of these, I think, are more than sufficient reasons to believe in the Bible. I add two more. First, taken together, they span genres and authors to tell a very compelling and potent narrative with unifying themes. This narrative is the most beautiful story ever told; even were most of the other reasons lacking, this would have considerable force in itself. Those documents where it was first found are awe-inspiring if only for sharing this story, which is so grand that it can scarcely have come from anywhere but God, ultimately. Second, it is in the context of these other reasons that I can say that I accept the Bible as true scripture because the Holy Spirit dwelling in me confirms it to me. When I read the Bible, it is confirmed – but I stress that the context is one where there are many other reasons to accept it.
As for your question as to the meaning of any given passage of the text, the core meaning is the one that is dictated by grammar, word choice, context (literary, historical, social/cultural, etc.), and so on. We may not understand all of these perfectly, but we can do so well enough to get those things that are of greatest importance, and even those that are of medium importance. Of course, it is also true that at times there are more extended senses in the text, but these are discovered by the church as a whole seeing the scripture through the lens of the greater light that God has revealed through thousands of years by his Spirit.
Enki said, So both believe in things for which there is little physical evidence…otherwise how could there be either statement? Its a matter of faith. Neither one has physical evidence for the ressurrection of Jesus, which is supposed to be the ultimate evidence for the christian faith. […] So Mormonism has it right that some things have to be taken on faith…
I’m skipping over your treatment of the subject of relics, as I found it… well, I’ll be honest, odd and irrelevant. But I do want to address a few points here. Nowhere in the Bible are we taught that faith is blind belief that stands in wholesale opposition to evidence. Not in Hebrews 11:1, not in 1 Corinthians 15:7. In New Testament usage, ‘faith(fulness)’ [pistis] is a trust and loyalty that is accorded to God on the basis of corporate experience with his reliability, and on concrete awareness of the evidence for his activity, as in raising Jesus bodily from the dead. It is not without reason, after all, that Hebrews 11:19 specifically gives Abraham’s line of reasoning as a stellar example of faith. And, in fact, while we may not have direct “physical evidence” (i.e., archaeological?) for the resurrection of Jesus, we do have plenty of historical evidence that supports it as something that should be believed. Hebrews 11:1 is not offering a definition of faith, per se, but is rather saying that faith (our eminently reasonable lifestyle of reliance on God) is the grounds for our assurance of his promises and the evidence of his future fidelity toward us. None of these verses support the now-trendy fideistic trends within popular Christianity, and nor do they support the strong fideistic streak that has come to overwhelmingly dominate Mormon religious epistemology.
Enki said, Its pretty strange but the writers of the NT anticipated that some would imagine that jesus never existed, very quickly labling a doubter as antichrist. (well duh) (2 John 1:7) But that has not stopped some from belief in Jesus, actually.
I’m afraid I’ll have to play a bubble-burster on this point as well. John was not writing against those who thought that Jesus did not exist (as has become a faddish position among some Internet atheists these days). He was arguing against an early form of docetism, which held that Jesus did have earthly existence but only as an ethereal presence in human form, not as a real flesh-and-blood human person. (I recall that one of the Gnostic writings I read depicted one of the disciples passing their hand through Jesus like a ghost.) Hence, the stress on the phrase, “in the flesh”. As I seem to recall, continued arguments along John’s line may be found in the letters of Ignatius of Antioch from just a few decades later. Note that John certainly did not have to rely on blind faith to know that Jesus existed and was a real human person – he’d known him, walked with him, talked with him, touched him! Even today, there is a good reason why only two or perhaps three crackpot fringe historians doubt the historical existence of Jesus; it is historically untenable to doubt it.
Enki said, How can you identify who and what is the “christian church”. Is there a body that has been in existance for the last 2,000 years? is that catholicism? or something else? I think its very relevant if the christian faith is true.
The Christian church is simply the living communion of all those whom Christ has redeemed through faith in him. It includes plenty of members of the Roman Catholic Church, but also Lutherans, Baptists, Orthodox, Methodists, and countless other denominations. What matters is Jesus Christ. Seek to place yourself firmly in him, not in an organization, and the rest will surely fall in place when you examine what the Bible says about him and the salvation he offers, and then fellowship with other believers in him anywhere that these core truths are preached.
In a written version of my testimony that I prepared in order to share it with some of my Mormon friends, I wrote the following two paragraphs:
I’m sure, Enki, that there are quite a few other statements within some of your comments here that would be worth addressing, but I’ll have to deal with them tomorrow after whatever sleep I can get.
Rick B,
Is there anything that I can say to change your mind about anything? That is perhaps the essence of religion. I honestly believe that all that is needed is for someone to believe, and after that people hold onto a set of ideas and nobody can change a persons mind as long as they don’t want their mind changed. That seems to be a common factor between mormons and other christians. The only difference is that is a slightly different take on the same basic stuff.
At some point bible literalists have hijacked the term “Christian”. I think they did that by using the generic use of the term, rather than a specific title which identifies a particular movement. Like Mormons, Kingdom Hall, Lutheran, Catholic etc…so when some one identifies as such, they respond “I’m a christian”. The response of the listener would be different and more honest if they said “I’m a Bible literalist”. There is an unfortunate side effect of being associated with people like Fred Phelps, or the guy that wrote the web page “Jesus is lord”.
So what if LDS people don’t understand the terms in the same way, is there universal agreement amoung all christians as to what particular terms mean? Repackaging of terms isn’t new, so what is the problem?
One of my Mormon friends on facebook posted this and I thought it might be interesting reading on this topic. I know it’s from 1972 but it’s still amusing. Poor sister missionaries, it would seem (at the time anyway) that your appearance was way more important than teaching the lessons and my favorite was:
Do not ever slap or poke an elder. Hahahaha! Enjoy!
http://www.lds.org/new-era/1972/10/a-letter-to-girls-about-lady-missionaries?lang=eng
johns,
Well you get today’s “Apollos” award which is given to the most detailed, well thought-out, and well presented post of the day. You may even get the summative award given out monthly and yearly. I appreciate your efforts.
The problem is that Enki won’t take the time to read it. It takes some patients and willingness to process the information. Our Mormon posters are typically the “drive-by” type who have had their mental processing chip removed when it comes to religious matters, hence the “burning in the bosom” and other faux spiritual experiences along with the “I bear my testimony” response to challenging information.
You can pick-up your Apollos award at the “falcon world headquarters for Christian apologetic ministries”. The award statuette is modeled after the Maltese Falcon in the Humphrey Bogart movie of the same name.