Mormon Connor C. (this guy, on this YouTube thread) replies to me:
For those of you who can’t read the image, here is the text:
“I already responded to that question Aaron. Yes I believe He [God] probably sinned, was forgiven, and later glorified and exalted to His current state. Sure that’s different from traditional Christianity, but Christianity has been wrong before. That God would help us progress in the same way, to me, highlights His overwhelming love and grace and mercy.”
Notice how Connor makes the connection between God having progressed from being a sinner to being an exalted God, and his view of God’s “love and grace and mercy.” For many Mormons, “love and grace and mercy” is God helping sinners become the kind of Gods who are worshipped by billions of their own spirit children. For Christians, “love and grace and mercy” is God forgiving and empowering us to enjoy making much of Him — the God who never sinned, the “Holy, Holy, Holy… Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come.” (Revelation 4:8)
And yet some Mormons continue to be in denial about this even being a problem in Mormonism.
Aaron, I read such statements such as Isaiah 43:10 as an expression, almost like a platitude. Much like the phrase in Islam “There is no god but allah”. It sets the cultural tone for the people who follow a particular diety. For anyone following a particular philosophy, of course they are going to claim that the foundation is the best, or perhaps the only real choice.
Psalms 86:8 states ” Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.” Does that scripture acknowledge the existence of other gods? Certainly the jewish people think YHWH has done more for them than any other god.
People following other gods have accomplished some amazing things, like the pyramids. So I don’t quite understand the exact context of Psalms 86:8. I remember reading about someone claiming that the pyramids were actually built by the followers of YHWH. They quoted some passage in the OT. But when one looks at the actual pyramid, I can’t see that as being hebrew in origin.
Enki,
The unique characteristic of the Hebrews was that they are monotheistic in their view of God. So when the Bible refers to “gods” it is making reference to those “gods” worshiped by other groups of people. The Bible isn’t saying that there are a lot of gods and the Hebrew God is the best of the lot.
I don’t know the Mormon god. He is not the God of the Bible. The Bible is clear in what God told Moses i.e. I AM. He’s it. The attributes that He has revealed about Himself in the Bible does not match any of the gods in the Mormon pantheon of gods.
This is serious business because if a people don’t get God right, they are lost and Mormons are spiritually lost. The deceptive nature of Mormonism is that it mixes in just enough Christianity to make it a very clever counterfeit. However if someone knows and understands the basic doctrines of the Christian faith, specifically those dealing with the nature of God, man, sin and salvation, they won’t be suckered into these cults.
When Mormons acknowledge that their god was a sinner, they have separated themselves into an aberrant cult. I don’t know the god of whom they speak. Their god isn’t God; the great I AM.
The Mormon god is the invention of a man who never met a strange religious idea he didn’t like. Take a look at some of the other sects of Mormonism. When Smith got into polygamy, eternal progression of men to gods and some of his other ridiculous ideas, they jumped ship. They knew better and rejected Smith as a fallen prophet.
Look, Smith was a weird but clever duck.
Enki, at minimum, real elohim / “gods” are beings that exist in the heavenlies — heavenly beings.
Traditional Christians have always affirmed the existence of other heavenly beings. The difference is that all these other heavenly beings, distinct from Yahweh, He can squash like bugs. He is fundamentally a different kind of being. The creator of all, before all, the first and the last, the Most High etc.
This hardly fits the notion of a genealogy of Gods, of a Heavenly Mother, or a Heavenly Grandfather, or getting your own worlds to govern and receiving worship from billions of others who know you as their “Most High”. Some Mormons today want to abandon such traditional Mormon ideas, and are in denial about them being a part of the core of traditional Mormonism. I wish them the best in abandoning such ideas of Smith, Snow Young, Woodruff, Fielding Smith, McConkie, etc., but such abandonment should be done with integrity and public confession (“our Church has sinned, our leaders have taught blasphemy and heresy”) and repentance.
Grace and peace in Jesus, who justifies the ungodly like me and Abraham (Romans 4:4-8).
That many Mormons would embrace this kind of belief really is’nt surprising considering
what their leaders have taught about God not always being God , because Mormon males who
successfully navigate the system of the Mormon gospel’s rules, rites, ordinances, acts, laws,
and doctrines , will become a Heavenly father themselves one day . As one Mormon leader
put it , ” The boy , like to his father grown,
Has but attained unto his own
To grow to sire from state of son
Is not against Nature’s course to run .
A son of God , like God to be
Would not be robbing Deity,
And he who has this hope within,
Will purify himself from sin .
From sinful Mormon male to a Elohim, Heavenly Father , and Almighty God over a vast
kingdom He peopled , homaging His greatness and worthliness .
Such is the delusion that has come from prophets in these latter days . Sadly sincere LDS have
embraced this type of doctrine and many thus see a connection between their experiences
of personal failure with the path the human who they now call Elohim trod before them.
It’s always refreshing to see that some Mormons are willing to publically admit this connection
and testify what it could very well mean . May the Mormon people return to worshiping the
God who has always been God , the true heavenly Father , not some rank and file man who
became better and smarter each year and eventually learned how to function as the One True
Creator of heaven and earth that we meet in the Bible . God loves the Mormon people and
wishes they come to know who He is , but that will be very difficult if they continue to follow
their prophets.
The above lines are from the poem by Lorenzo Snow , published in Church curriculum such as
Gospel Thru the Ages, p 113
This doctrine is suppose to be what the NT Church believed, was lost and then restored by Joseph Smith. The problem, as I point out continually to Mormons, is that there is no evidence of Mormonism any where. It isn’t in the NT, the writings of the Church Fathers or within the traditions of the Church. The heretics didn’t even write about anything that Mormons embrace.
Falcon,
What you said about heresies is not true. Audianism was a heresy that God had a human form, they used the same arguement that LDS use. “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” Pelagianism comes very close to LDS doctrine, “Belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid.” Actually the difference for LDS is that one must be guided by the spirit to choose good. Henricians condemned the baptism of infants. Euchites /Messalians- that the essence of the trinity could be perceived by the carnal senses. Not entirely like the LDS doctrine, but close as JS claimed to have seen two members of the trinity.
Antinomianism is interesting, as that seems remarkably close to evangelical teaching. “Any view which holds that Christians are freed by grace from obligations of any moral law.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_heresies#Other_Early_Church_Heresies
Enki,
I thought someone would bring that up but I’m talking about the whole Mormon claim about an apostasy and restoration of the “original” gospel supposedly practiced by the first century church. That is, men becoming gods, a mother goddess, spirit procreation, and on and on. If you can find that in your research, I would be very interested. I’m very aware of the gnostic claims as well as those of others. Mormonism didn’t exist until Joseph Smith invented it. There were no Christian Temples were Free Mason rituals were practiced or any of the other rites of Utah Mormonism. As you know, there are Mormon sects that reject all of this as well as it wasn’t apart of original Mormonism.
Enki,
I think you might be taking falcon’s statement about the heretics not teaching what Mormonism teaches too far from his original point on the topic at hand. Neither Basilides, Theodotus, Valentinus, Sabellius, nor any other 2nd or 3rd century heretics advocated monolatrian polytheism, and neither did Philo, Josephus, or any other contemporary writers during that era acknowledge that any Christians or what would have appeared to them to have been schismatic Christian groups teach that Christians can become their own God. The important thing is the presence of Mormonism as restored by Joseph Smith discovered in the early church. Unfortunately the case for that is just as strong for the case for Zarahemla being pinpointed on Google maps; it doesn’t exist.
Aaron you’re a wild and crazy guy. Life is very, very interesting. What are we here for? What is the exact process we need to go through to become a God? I don’t know, could you tell me.
One thing I have heard is that this life is a probationary one. We are here to be tested. The God I worship probably has gone through what I am going through now and knows the trials that I am going through. He will probably ask me -What have I learned? I hope I don’t see him soon because at times I enjoy being here. Any question?
All I can say is ‘weird’. The whole point of the LDS claim to apostasy is that the original ‘whole’ no longer existed. If one could see a complete ‘gospel’ as the mormons view it, then there would be no reason for a restoration. The page that I provided about heresy I believe is mostly from a Catholic perspective. If one pages down it condemns ‘restoration’ movements like the LDS sects and Jehovahs Witnesses. To some degree the prostant reformation has some elements somewhat related to this idea. The idea that the church was no longer teaching correct doctrine.
I don’t know if every LDS idea could be found in one of the earlier heresies listed by the catholic fathers. It is interesting however that one could find particular fragments that sort of look like LDS ideas. “Weird”. The central idea of the LDS church is that the complete formulation was lost. Too many people that seems ‘weird’, and maybe rightfully so. 1800 years without a complete gospel? Yet, Luther thought the catholic church lost the essential teachings, along with the protestant reformers, most of which became concepts in the evangelic movement.
Enki,
Here’s the difference. We can trace Catholic thought and that of Protestantism through the centuries. We do this through the writings and church tradition. Mormonism is no where to be found. Smith made Mormonism up as he went along. There isn’t a trace of it any where in the early church.
I don’t know? Do we really want to start a discussion on the Reformation?
clyde,
…..and you know these things how? Oh, you’ve heard. Well that’s a good and reliable source. I’ve heard that there is an invisible mother ship hovering over the earth to which we all return when we die. That’s about as reliable as Mormon prophets.
clyde said: What are we here for? What is the exact process we need to go through to become a God?
This is where, I think, things take a very interesting turn. In my opinion, Mormonism is one of those religions that came about out of a need to understand life’s purpose. In Mormonism, it is taught that before we are born, we pre-existed as god’s spirit children, that when we are born we are born into a situation or a life that reflects our behavior in the pre-existence (for example, Mormonism, for many years, taught that a spirit who was against god in the pre-existence would be born as a black person or born, and another example is that someone who was always on god’s side and was righteous in the pre-existence would be born as a Mormon in these latter days because they already have a leg up). Then, our lives here on earth are a constant battle of proving ourselves worthy to be returned to god in a highest level of heaven. Actually, it’s not enough to be returned to god, Mormonism teaches, but rather to be exalted alongside god, exalted into godhood ourselves. Exaltation means becoming a god and having our families with us, begetting our own spirit children, and being god over our own worlds. (Well, men, at least, not women, of which I am one, so the only way I can achieve any of this would be to marry a worthy Mormon man who gets exalted.)
What a selfish religion!
(to be continued…)
Now Mormons would probably argue that Christianity’s teachings about our life’s purpose means that we serve a selfish God … and I would agree. Why? Because the Bible says so. Exodus 20:5 says: “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God…”
What does God want from us in our lives? Strangely enough, the answer is so simple. It’s so simple because in the New Testament Jesus is asked what the greatest commandment is, and he answers: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. He adds, The second is to love your neighbor as yourself.
What is our purpose here on earth? To LOVE GOD and LOVE EACH other. This is expressed in Christianity as our every day lives, as our serving God and each other, as our taking part in worship (because a Christian worship service focuses only on Jesus and his goodness, only on exalting Jesus, not ourselves). We do good works not because it is necessary for us to be saved but because it is our way of showing our love for God and each other.
(more below)
Now onto the bigger question … heaven!
Mormonism will tell us that our goal is to be exalted alongside god, to spend eternity bonded with our families, to be exalted to the highest degree of heaven. Have you ever noticed that attention is spent on ensuring that families are together in heaven? Have you ever noticed that attention is paid to the idea of being exalted? To this I ask: where is god? If exaltation is the endgame, doesn’t that mean NOT being with god for eternity but rather being set apart from him?
What do I believe about heaven? An endless worship service to my God, who created me and sustained me throughout my entire life. Does this make God a selfish God? Yes. Jealous? Yes. Do I care? NO. Why? Because God is my creator, He is my savior, He is my strength, He is my provider. He is everything to me. Why the heck wouldn’t I want to spend eternity singing praises and thanking Him for everything He has done for me? It’s the least I can do.
I’m reminded of the words to MercyMe’s beautiful song, “I Can Only Imagine”:
Surrounded by Your glory, what will my heart feel
Will I dance for You Jesus or in awe of you be still
Will I stand in Your presence or to my knees will I fall
Will I sing hallelujah, will I be able to speak at all
I can only imagine
I wonder … what do Mormons think about these lyrics?
Clyde,
You opened with, “I don’t know, could you tell me?”, then closed with “Any question?” Well, if you don’t know then how are you prepared to give an answer? I have been confused like you before with all due respect.
“…life is a probationary one. We are here to be tested.” That is true, and we failed at that right out of the gate. There are consequences for all of our willful rebellion.
“The God I worship probably has gone through what I am going through now and knows the trials that I am going through.” That is true, the one true triune God became a human, had to grow into a man then suffer a humiliating death on a cross as a spectacle to save those who trust in Him from our willful rebellion. He knows exactly what each of us are going through and pitied us with His grace.
“He will probably ask me -What have I learned?” No, He will ask us all “Have you lived a righteous life?” and we will all truthfully answer “No” due to our willful rebellion; all except for those who trust in the incarnate God who has declared those who believe in Him to be righteous.
“I hope I don’t see him soon because at times I enjoy being here.” This world is an evil hell and everyone on it is deserving of what it does to us and the evils we cast on each other. The redeemed say, “Lord, come! Deliver us from evil!” I have been confused like you before. We lift you up in prayer, maranatha.
I was thinking that the Christians who post here, many of who are former Mormons, and the MRM organization with Bill, Sharon, Eric and Aaron, have spent and continue to spend a great deal of time, money and effort studying Mormonism.
I’m wondering if the Mormon posters spend any time at all studying Christianity from Christian sources. Those sources could be those dealing with the history of the Church, the writings of the Church Fathers and the doctrines (of historic, orthodox Christianity)? Mormons often tell us what their Mormon authorities say about Christianity, but I get the idea that the (Mormons) haven’t spent much time in personal study.
grindeal, a Christian and former Mormon, quotes extensively from Mormon sources to make his points. I’d say that is the case for most of the Christian posters.
So when we have a topic like the sinful Mormon god, we know the difference between who Mormons claim as one of their gods, and God. But do Mormons know the difference and how there is no basis for Mormons to claim being Christians?
Mormonism is a strange religion with a strange god. Orthodox Christianity is the normative religion for those sects wanting to call themselves Christian. There has to be a standard.
The basis for comparison is, “Who is God?”, “Who is Jesus?”, “Who is man?”, and “What is God’s plan of salvation?” Mormonism isn’t even a distant cousin to Christianity.
Mormonism claims many gods who were all sinful men who followed a prescribed system to become gods. That is the hope for Mormons but it isn’t supported any where in the Bible, in the writings of the Church Fathers, or in the history and traditions of Christianity.
Mormonism is an invention of Joseph Smith that seems to have some appeal for some people. It promises much but can deliver little except busy little people scurrying about hoping that their efforts will result in them becoming sinners turned into gods.
Falcon,
Your not understanding something. Just because an element or teaching is missing, doesn’t mean much. For instance if I took a car apart, and looked at the parts, I could say that I can’t put together a complete car. For instance if the axle is missing, that would limit my ability to put it back together. If I saw the cylinders, wheels and chassis I would still be missing the axle. Just because there is no record of the axle doesn’t mean that a complete car didn’t once exist.
To say that you can see parts other than just the axle actually strengthens the possibility that a complete car once existed. To dismiss the complete car because an axle is missing doesnt address anything.
Clyde, People are on earth to be tested? I dont think thats in the articles of faith. If thats a central theme, I missed it.
Sr, In a surpring way mormons are doing the exact things that you aspire to.
Enki,
are you suggesting that since we can see superficial similarities with some less important Mormon doctrines within the history of the Christian church then we can logically conclude that the church practiced Mormonism as revealed by Joseph Smith during the conception of the church? Let’s consider the heresies you have addressed thus far. Audius lived in the early 4th century after Christ, the Messalians and Pelagius lived late in the 4th century, and Henry of Laussane lived in the 12th century. We know what these men taught, when they emerged hundreds of years after Christ, where they spread and when they died and there is no continuous chain of their existence hundreds of years after Apostolic times. There are hundreds of works written by both Christians and non-Christians before the 4th century had even begun and none of them address the presence of these pseudo-monrmonesque heresies in any kind of continuous fashion, much less Mormonism. What about the heresies that superficially resemble Islam, should we logically conclude that Jesus was in fact a good Muslim? What about all of the heresies that bear absolutely no resemblance to Mormonism at all? The medicine you are providing when considered in whole actually kills the patient you are trying to save.
peshitta, Its a departure started by Falcon, not me. The general rules of MC is to use the Bible to establish doctrine, so why go down a road that doesn’t follow the rules? I suppose we are both at fault with the spirit of MC. So, given that heresies don’t establish good doctrine, they are an aside and perhaps not relevent to the discussion? It still doesn’t address the LDS premise that a great apostasy occured, and that a ‘doctrinal whole’ no longer existed. Doctrinal fractions do not establish a whole. Heresy related to muslims, not related to discussion. Heresy not related to mormonism, not related to discussion.
note, the auto filter for this site altered your name, not me.
Enki, I can honestly say that I have never been more confused about anyone on this board than yourself. Everyone here has a definite stance and position but you. Every time you write I have no idea what you are saying, with all due respect. If this discussion were the only thing I had to go on to determine where you stand I would guess that you are a very young new age/agnostic/universalist who has good intentions but says things without saying the ultimate point of what you are saying while attempting to let the point be apparent from what you said. I honestly have no idea if you are a devout Christian or Mormon based solely upon what you have said on this post. I see Clyde’s post as far more constructive to the conversation than any of your posts, with all due respect.
Moderator, I am sorry for deviating from the topic of A Sinning God, but I had to for a sec.
Enki,
Given your analogy, anything can work. A person can identify something as being a “part” of any “whole” they want to invent. It really makes no sense at all. I think you better re-work it and try again. I can make my “mother ship hovering over the earth” work using your approach.
Cults thrive on this sort of thinking and reasoning. The more convoluted and preposterous an idea, the more cultists embrace it. They like off-the-wall and goofy ideas. This type of thing is right up their alley.
I can see why you’re going down the path you’re going down. We can only hope it’s a stage you’ll move through. Check this guy out. You’ll groove on him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg
Pesh-tta,
I think you’ve got Enki figured out . I tried to share my thoughts and concerns with him/her
back on Jan.15th relative to this blog’s specific ministry . Sadly , there are some people who are
drawn into a religious pluralism type worldview after being spiritual/emotionally affected
by autocratic /false prophet led organizations such as Mormonism .( my wife was once
a member of a very similar type organization ) . There are other Christian ministries that are
geared to aid these people and help them transition out of confusion and mistrust into a simple
life of peace that Jesus, not an organization , is able to give . Jn.16: 33 . Now I feel it is important
to also say that this is strictly my own opinion on this matter .
Pesh-tta,
People see what they want to see, or what they are able to see. I am perhaps no different.
Falcon, A space ship? I am not sure I would ‘groove’ with Swedenborg. There is an element of christian evangelism that does focus on what you are talking about. Near death experiences, talking with angels, encounters with the devil, trips to hell. I thought they were weird, but perhaps also interesting.
However, they are completely subjective experiences, much like Mormons experience with gaining a ‘testimony’. Some involve encounters with spiritual beings of various sources. There was something odd, there was a christian guy that actually called ufos by praying to YHWH. Non believers could actually see them. It was in a video, so of course its real right? What I found odd was that most christians consider aliens to be demons. LDS consider the sons of god to be mortal humans, so they don’t really comment upon the existence of aliens or ufos. However, Utah is supposed to have a lot of paranormal activity, or so I have heard.
Mike,
On the previous thread I did ask an open question about the process of Christian scripture creation. That was an open question. I am open to the idea that perhaps it is completely different from LDS scripture creation. I was so surprised that nobody took that question. I know that Christian thought is generally very polarizing, and has a strong tendency to be exclusionary and apologetic. So maybe I am not fitting in with either point of view, its true.
Enki,
At some point I’d like to hear from you who you think Jesus is and what is the meaning of his death on the cross.
I think you’re enjoying “exploring” and your connections and conclusions are your way, I’m sure, of trying to make sense out of the world of religion.
If Jesus is God, as I believe He is; and if He died to atone for my sins, then I need to attend to that. So you can dabble here and there and make all sorts of discoveries that somehow satisfy you intellectually, but is it getting you any closer to a decision about Jesus?
I know it’s probably fun for you to make some statements about your recent discoveries and have us respond and debate you. But we’d be remiss if we didn’t keep bringing you back to the cross of Christ because that’s really the issue, your eternal destiny.
Enki said: Sr, In a surpring way mormons are doing the exact things that you aspire to.
I have absolutely no clue to what you are referring. Are you agreeing with me that Mormons wish to be exalted alongside God and be set apart from him as a god themselves in heaven? Then yes, I agree completely. However, that is NOT what God and the Bible want and teach.
Enki,
You actually remind me of a friend who has left Mormonism. Wandering around aimlessly trying to figure it all out. If Mormonism isn’t true then Christianity isn’t true either. From what you have posted here I think you are an Atheist with no interest in God whatsoever, but your anger at the Mormon church makes you want to lash out at not only them but all religion. You’re here to prove it all wrong. Like falcon, I would like to know just what you think about Jesus, who he is, what he did, what he said. If you in fact don’t believe in Him, then you are definitely on the wrong blog. There are Atheist sites you can go to.
Kate,
You kind of stole my thunder with your above post to Enki.
I wanted to follow-up with him/her and ask what his/her purpose, motivation, agenda or perhaps game was for being on this blog.
Is it to defend Mormonism? Is it to try and prove Christianity wrong?
Now the reason I ask is because I see our friend Enki running about picking up a dib of information here and a dab of information there and then trying to draw some conclusions, comparisons between various religions with the caveat that they’re similar or all the same.
OK, so why? What’s the point?
If I have an idea of what’s motivating someone, it helps me compose my answer based on their current mind-set or need.
I think you may have it right. Enki has been burned by Mormonism so he’s generalizing that all religions are basically the same. What’s interesting is that that tactic is most often used by active Mormons who post here.
falcon,
Sorry, didn’t mean to steal your thunder. I have been comparing Enki to this friend of mine for a few days now. I just never posted it. His/her comments have been a lot like my friend.
Enki responded, “There is an element of christian evangelism that does focus on what you are talking about. Near death experiences, talking with angels, encounters with the devil, trips to hell … What I found odd was that most christians consider aliens to be demons. LDS consider the sons of god to be mortal humans, so they don’t really comment upon the existence of aliens or ufos.”
Enki, this is exactly what we are talking about. You are not adding anything worthwhile to the conversation and you are against EVERY position. If there were 2 of you on this blog you would both be constantly tearing down each others half arguments, then building up different half arguments and tearing those down too, with all due respect
Enki, after my disaffection I turned into a universalist Baha’i who embraced Joseph Smith as a Prophet. I considered myself wise yet I had become a fool through all my knowledge. The infinite skeptic, I only confused others and encouraged none, though in my eyes I was enlightening everyone around me. Looking back it was very scary where I was at! Jesus Christ is the only solid foundation for any man to build his life on. But then you respond, “Not so, a Muslim has a solid foundation, it’s just not Christ.” Try it then. Practice all these world religions. Try to live them out while the law of God hammers away at you daily. On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand. It’s worth repeating, John 16:33. Please, throw your pride to the side and heed our experiences on this matter, call on him alone and all this goes away in real terms.
Peshtta,
I don’t recall saying that Islam had a solid foundation. If you look at the comment above you will find that to be true. Are you refering to something on another thread? I also said that people will see what they want to see. Here is what I actually said above “Heresy related to muslims, not related to discussion.” I don’t see myself being against every position. I am just responding to observations I have made about Mormons and evangelical christians. And yes it can be confusing.
I had an encounter with a Bahai which was unpleasant. And no, I don’t think acceptance of JS is universal for Bahais. They do however accept Jesus as a manifestation of god.
“I am just responding to observations I have made about Mormons and evangelical christians. And yes it can be confusing.” = “I am just a marble in an empy barrel sayings things in response to peoples posts that don’t directly address the subject of the blog. I am confused and too deep, which is my I only appear to be off topic with every one of my posts.”
Thank you for that. Could you please respond to falcon’s post from 2:28 pm so that your true colors can be known? Would it be too unambiguous of you to present yourself rather than just doing drive-bys on everyone’s post?
Also, you cited Wikipedia above so I shall do the same, “A TROLL is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or OFF-TOPIC MESSAGES in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or BLOG, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise DISRUPTING normal ON-TOPIC discussion.”
You good sir, are a t.roll based upon every one of your posts.
I think I’ve mentioned previously that I don’t get too upset about what Mormons say about their god. If they want him to be a former sinful man then so-be-it. If they want him to be one of a million or billion gods who is/are still progressing and therefore limited in their knowledge and power, I say go for it.
The problem for Mormons is that their failure to recognize “God” for who He is and what He has done for us through His Son Jesus Christ, will result in eternal separation from Him. That is a major bummer!
The problem with the Mormon gods, besides the fact that they aren’t “God”, is that they are just better men. The other problem is that there is no support for these gods any where except in the make believe world that Joseph Smith lived in.
And there in lies the problem. It’s easy to blow holes in Joseph Smith’s story. It’s not even necessary to go very deep into the narrative.
I was just watching the testimony of Lynn Wilder, Micah’s mom, and it’s interesting to see/hear the transition she went through, how she found God, and how her life is now different knowing Him in all of His magnificent glory. Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can’t compare with viewing Him as Mormons do. She gives a moving testimony specifically on the “cross” of Our Lord and seeing the cross as she does now as compared to when she was a Mormon.
I can see, I guess, how someone in Mormonism can get lost in the tedium of the Mormon system and not take time to examine who God is. Focusing on the NT and just the words of Jesus will go a long way towards flipping the mind of a Mormon and bring them to a decision point.
Enki,
You can redeem yourself by getting back on topic. You responded to Clyde’s on-topic post by saying, “Clyde, People are on earth to be tested? I dont think thats in the articles of faith. If thats a central theme, I missed it.”
Would you mind expounding upon this further in a fashion that is directly related to the original topic?
Funny how the majority of this thread has turned into an Enki bashing session. It seems that a lot of unnecessary speculation and accusations have been thrown at Enki, when all that was needed as a simple “I am not sure I understand the reason for you saying that; Could you explain?”
Now, I think Enki had a good point in saying that just because a piece is missing that is not sufficient reason to say the whole never existed. I do not think he (or she) ever intended this to be used as proof that the speculated whole did exist; only as a interesting point that if some of the parts did exist then the possibility of the whole existing is there.
Concerning the original point of this article, while some in the church believe in the possibility that Heavenly Father sinned, I do not think it is a common belief, simply because I do not think that many people have ever considered the idea. Quite honestly, I find the whole topic to be fairly pointless, as it is a matter of speculation that is not supported by any actual source from the church.
Also, on the whole I think most people do not really understand the doctrine of exaltation and what godhood is going to be like. I know many people believe things concerning it, but very little is actually said in any official source from the church. Again, most of it is speculation. All that we do know is that all those who are exalted will live on this earth in the eternities, and that we will have the privilege are being with the Father. This, to me, clearly refutes any idea of having our own worlds, but rather sets for the idea that we will all operate together in a counsel of gods that will be headed by Christ.
Come to think about it. This is based on Aarons’ idea. He has taken Snow’s couplet and taken it in a direction that I seldom look at. Like I said before I do not understand the process. All this is speculation. The most minor thing may be the greatest thing we can learn from this lives experience. The things we conquer in this world will serve us in the next. They may be simple things.
Shem, I hardly think that ” bashing” is the appropriate word to use . This blog is here to offer
Christians a tool to dialogue with the Mormon people about the gospel . While everyone is
welcome to comment on the topics which concerns the world Mormonism and it’s truth claims,
still , by trying to turn it into some kind of Mars Hill type of session of discussing any new
belief prevelent in the world of religions is counterproductive , in my opinion. Enki is on a
journey that is short for some but much longer for others , and while she/he may make a
point relative to the topic at times , her comments usually reflect her current religious pluralism
worldview which of course has nothing to do with this ministry of warning the Mormon people
of their danger in following a false prophet led organization which has misled them about Jesus
and salvation etc. My wife and I used to facilitate a support group for members of a similar
false prophet led autocratic organization , thus I’m well aware of the rejection and mistrust of
what some former members call ” organized religion” . But drifting into a syncretism , a grab bag
of religious beliefs or even no ” religion ” is’nt the answer . Hearing some new belief /practice
of some Hindu cult or about the Aborigines in Australia or even some strange ritual of
some early “christian ” and then use it in the specific manner in which she/he does on this blog
is pointless .Therefore I mentioned there are other ministries that address that genre , and so
Enki should consider those instead .
Clyde said
How do you figure? You and Shem really want to believe this, but we have a Mormon who clearly believes otherwise. He did not learn it from us, so he either learned it from Your prophets he claims to follow by saying He is LDS. Or he simply made it up. Either way we have a problem, you and Shem deny this, other LDS believe it and have no problem with it. Again, how can we or why should we trust you guys over other LDS who believe differently?
Rick
It is not that I deny this. It is just that I seldom think about the idea. So how does that make that a problem?
Clyde said
Rick
Seldom means I don’t think about it all the time. Not that I don’t think about it at all.
You seldom think at all do you?
As I said before, you LDS cannot agree, So since you cannot agree, How can we trust you to know what your talking about? How do I know your right and conner is wrong or vice versa? You seldom think about things, so that tells me you dont do any research and I cannot trust you to know what your talking about.
Rick you’re either stupid or are being ridiculous. Ask Aaron when he started the God never sinned web site. and give me your definition of seldom.
Clyde, what does Aaron and that website have to do with you seldom thinking about that or not. The question was/is, Mormons do not agree on this, some say, Yes God was once a sinful man like us, others deny this.
So if you guys cannot agree, then how can I trust you to know the truth? I have asked this before and I believe it was Shem who quoted from the D and C saying, I have the spirit who guides me and tells me that I am correct. Yet it stands to reason these LDS who dont agree with your and Shems position also use that same passage from the D and C and feel that it applies to them, so you really cannot answer my question and tell me how I can trust you over other LDS who disagree with any position you have.
The Bigger problem is, No LDS prophet has come before the people and said, I went to God in prayer and solved this mystery by asking, this is what God said. Sadly these things simply never happen. You guys proudly proclaim you have a prophet leading your church and you teach ongoing revelation. Well what good does it do when the big questions that cause problems are never addressed with guidance from God in prayer? It is only trivial matters that he seems to address.
Shem even said God can tell you what vacuum to use to clean the temple, yet strange How he cannot clear up the issue as to was He once a sinful man or not. The real reason is, your god is false and your prophets have no clue.
This just goes to show that the Mormon Church today is peopled with members who will make up anything they want, instead of giving credence to the words of their lauded “prophets.” They will try and sell the idea that “most people don’t really understand” this doctrine or that doctrine, simply because they themselves can’t for some reason accept what was taught, or latch on to deceptive statements by leaders that their “prophets” can only be trusted so far, and that even though they spout off all kinds of doctrinal explanations, they get a free pass for false prophecies, contradictions in their own doctrine, lying, and moral failures, that are of course only folklore, misinterpreted, and explained away as the weaknesses of men. (Who get everything else directly from God but selective embarrassing statements, policies, lies, or amoral behavior).
We are simply “ignorant”, a word that they throw out at people they never met, and know nothing about, only because they have been quoted the very words of the men they are trying to convince the world are true prophets of God. There are literally hundreds of statements about the nature of God, and how he came to be God in the Mormon catalog, but you can still have a conversation with a Mormon and the only answer you will get is that it is something I seldom think about, or I don’t care, or it’s not necessary for my salvation. The reason for this is because they are told not to look into this subject, and the reason for that is well, they might not like what they find. This is called blind obedience, and many Mormons are quite happy with it.
Rick
About 5 years ago give or take some years Aaron asked a question. If God lived on a world like us did he sin? Or something to that effect. I believe it was based on Snow couplet as man is God once was, as God is man may become. I think I quoted the couplet correctly and hope you at least got the point. Aaron took it on himself to interview Mormons about this idea of God as a sinner. The last time I looked he had some pretty good responses.
To me the couplet stresses that I am a God in embryo and the God over me is responsible for the world I live on. As I have said before I seldom think about God as a sinner but I do see Him as a wise and loving God because He Might have been through the same experience I am going through.
I am more concern with how I can be better person and how I can embody the teaching of Jesus in my life.
You must realize that all mormons are not alike. Each one would probably explain the same thing slightly different from the other. We are not all rubber stamp same response people. You seem to making a bigger deal of it than me.
I am trying to point out that what you seemed to be concerned with I am not. I hope you don’t give up on me because sometimes your responses are pretty good. I will try to not give up on you but give you good and reasonable response.