Perhaps the most compelling parallel that can be made between Mormon temples and Solomon’s temple is that the Israelites disobediently put an “Asherah pole” — an object which honored Asherah, the wife of Baal (which idolatrous Israelites assumed to be also the wife of Yahweh) — into the temple. Kings and Chronicles repeatedly makes the issue of Asherah a measuring rod when describing the rebellion and idolatry and wickedness of God’s people and the kings of Israel. In the great reform, the Asherah pole was chopped down and burned to ashes (2 Kings 23:6).
Today, Mormons resurrect worship of Asherah in at least two ways:
1. They essentially teach and believe in Heavenly Mother, and this worldview is the framework which informs the endowment ceremony, which under-girds the sealing ceremonies (i.e. sealings are necessary for women to become cosmic queens, goddesses, to further the genealogy of the gods), and the rare second anointings, where women are given assurance, short of subsequently committing murder, of celestial exaltation unto godhood.
2. After re-enacting the Fall, the Mormon participants in the LDS endowment ceremony are told by Satan to run, hide, and make a green apron-covering for themselves, to hide their nakedness. The acted drama or movie is literally stopped to give LDS participant time to obey Satan. The narrator then instructs them to put on their green aprons. In Mormonism, the decision to eat of the forbidden fruit is construed as being wise, righteous, holy, and worth imitating. It is celebrated for allegedly then enabling Adam and Eve to birth mortal children. Whereas Biblically the shameful self-covering of Adam and Eve was replaced with the animal-skin covering that God provided (pointing to Christ), Mormons put the green apron on in a celebratory fashion, not a shameful one. They even put it on over the alleged divine covering (the white undergarments). Mormons are often even buried in their casket with the green apron on. The green apron may be seen as a celebration of the fertility that came with the Fall, when they obeyed Satan’s enticing. Since Asherah was a goddess of fertility, I can’t help but see the connection: not only are modern Mormon apologists like Kevin Barney calling for worship of Asherah as Heavenly Mother(!), Mormons have inadvertently paid homage to the goddess of fertility in a demonic temple ceremony.
Old Man, we can’t ‘prove’ the BoM true nor can you ‘prove’ it a fraud. So your statement that “the BoM is a proven fraud” is simply uninformed – which is typical and straight to my earlier point of the low-info types.
We don’t need NHM, Khor Kharfot, Oman and a thousand other things coming to light to ‘prove’ the BoM true – not at all – and that’s never been the goal. But what it does do (and quite nicely) is prove without question that the junk psychology of Brodie et al is exactly that. It wipes out over 200 hundred years of @nti thinking. That’s all it does. And that’s all we need it to do. We’re not out looking for evidence to assuage a testimony or some such nonsense.
Falco, no one’s bragging. Just pointing out what I observed from my perspective. Erskine I’m sure would have a completely different take on it. You got anything better than Mormon Curtain yet? You smacked that link down like you actually had something. A low-info Ev I guess.
Falcon
I know you like to assume that I don’t know what I am talking about, but your assumptions are rarely accurate.
I know all the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham very well, and none of them depict God as you claim. Figure seven shows God on his thrown with an outstretched hand, and nothing else. This fits very well with the interpretation of the figure: “Represents God sitting upon his throne, revealing through the heavens the grand Key-words of the Priesthood.” With an outstretched hand he teaches the grand Key-words of the Priesthood.
Now, I don’t care how vulgar your mind is, but it is your own fabrication, or whoever it was that first made this claim, that is to blame, not Joseph Smith. It is just like those who claim there are sexual references in several of the Disney cartoons (like the word sex appearing in the dandelion cloud in the Lion King). A perverted person sees something and because of their own mind it becomes a vulgar reference to them, and they then spread it around and the like minded choose to believe it.
I will alter my previous statements somewhat. There is a connection between the truth of a heavenly mother and the worship of various mother goddesses. That connection is in the fact that all pagan religions are corruptions of the true gospel and the truth of eternity. We have a heavenly mother, and that truth has been twisted and corrupted to eventually give shape to the pagan worship of female deities, such as are mentioned here.
However, as I stated earlier, while we have a heavenly mother, we do not worship her as the pagans do, and thus the accusations of this thread are not accurate, but are a twisting of the true doctrine in an attempt to corrupt it as those early pagans did.
As I often tell @jasonrae, I will be glad to have more conversations with him once he does a podcast with me where he discusses his relationship with the Adam-God teaching of Brigham Young.
jasonrae
Is “low-info types” your favourite expression? You use it an awful lot whilst at the same time demonstrating your own low-info. You seem to be suffering from a severe & probably incurable case of hypocrisy. You say I can’t prove the B0fM a fraud; I most certainly can & could do so in a few short sentences. Of course when I say prove I mean giving evidence acceptable to anyone apart from Mormons suffering from confirmation bias. Are you interested in seeing it? Of course you’re not. You’re not really interested in truth at all; you are far more interested in putting people down & in mocking them rather than engaging in a genuine dialogue. Pride is just one of many things that set Mormons apart from Christians, not the kind of pride that comes from a job well done but the pride that blinds them to the truth, the pride that alienates men from God & which shows Christians in here & elsewhere that Mormons do not follow the God of the Bible.
Although I enjoy a good debate I see no point in continuing a dialogue with those who pointedly ignore 95% of what is said. If they (LDS) cannot make a case they will just ignore what is being said & turn a debate into a debacle. Their minds are closed to the truth, Christ tells us what we should do about that in Matthew 7:6
Jason,
Step back a minute my friend. First of all, I didn’t defend Dehlin. I just said calling him shallow makes you shallow. Where did I defend him? Do you always put words in people’s mouths like that?
Are you going to be like the rest of the Mormons that post here, make general statements but have no substance? Let’s hear an agrument, since you have all the answers. Or is that too hard for you? You say that NHM is just the “tip of the iceberg” but what else do you have from “Lehi’s Trail”? You haven’t even shown us how NHM proves anything. Come on. Bring it. I guarantee that I will debunk ANYTHING you have to say. But I’ll consider it, and take it point by point as people do who can put their money where their mouth is.
As for your inaccurate portrayal of me, you don’t know me. I live around the corner (so to speak) from Cumorah. Been all over it. There is nothing there. I’m 55 years old Jason. I’ve been all over the United States, been to Central America and Europe. I’ve got a great wife and family. Who the hell are you to say that the world is passing me by? I lived through the race riots in LA in the 60’s, and saw violence in my own school. I went to Woodstock in 1969 when I was 12 with my older step brothers, and climbed every mountain in Oregon when I was a boy scout with the Mormon Church in the 1970’s. I’ve worked with the Salvation Army for years and have been to many disasters and helped a lot of people. The only reason I’m on this computer now is that I was doing charity work and was in an accident and have had three operations. Life didn’t and sure isn’t passing me by. What have YOU done Jason? And “thousands of hours” in Arabia does no good if there is no provable evidence. Plus, Mr. Aston makes a pretty penny for all those tours he charges people to go there. He has a great racket going. When I first heard of Warren Aston I was curious who this guy was. Intrigued, I did a google search about him.
What I came up with, is quite amusing. Warren Aston appears to be a UFO Expert. He also runs a Travel Agency called ‘Bountiful Tours’. I Googled that, and came up with their web page, which describes Bountiful Tours as:
“Bountiful Tours conducts unique tours of Lehi & Sariah’s path from Jerusalem to Bountiful. It also operates custom-made tours overland into the historical Hadramaut Valley and coast of Yemen, air-tours to the mystical island of Socotrain the Indian Ocean and tours of the ancient Frankincense Trail in Saudi Arabia.”
Here is the price info on the ‘tour’:
The 2011 tour will be led throughout by Warren Aston. The tour itself commences on Sunday October 9th in Jerusalem and ends in Muscat, Oman on Friday October 21st.
Tour cost is $US 2835 per person, share-twin, Single Supplement is $560. The tour price includes all sightseeing, tours and entrances, all land and water transportation, first class hotels with breakfasts daily throughout, luggage handling, return domestic airfares within Oman, most dinners and a picnic lunch. All airport transfers are included for those traveling on the group flights.
Not included are visa fees and taxes, other meals, drinks and gratuities. Airfare – for those departing from the US, a special group airfare from New York City JFK – Saturday evening October 8th – and arriving back at JFK on the afternoon of Friday October 21st is available for $US 970, plus taxes and fuel surcharges (currently $352). http://bountifultours.com/
Is anyone just a little concerned that the guy who is promoting evidence which “constitute[s] the first actual archaeological evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon,” is also trying to make a buck off of it? He is also selling a book and documentary to go along with it. Also, is anyone just a little concerned that the guy who claims to have found ‘proof’ for the Book of Mormon also believes there are extraterrestrials living among us? Does he have thousands of hours of boots on the ground on other planets too? Here is a sample of Aston’s ‘proofs’:
“Some of the physical differences between extraterrestrials and ourselves have been recorded by a noted medical doctor, Dr. Leopoldo Diaz, head of surgery at a major hospital in Guadalajara, who had occasion to examine a man in his office in 1976. Requesting a medical examination because he traveled much, the man was examined by Dr. Diaz who quickly realized that he was not human. At this point his patient disclosed the real reason for his visit. He had seemingly chosen a well-respected and influential figure to pass on the information that “many” people from his planet were here living undetected among us, trying to help us avert catastrophe. In a long conversation he taught the doctor a great deal about religion, life after death and earth’s future before leaving and disappearing outside the building.” (See Photo for a picture of the Article, which can be read here:http://www.theblackvault.com/encyclopedia/documents/MUFON/Journals/2007/June_2007.pdf
Now I love the X-Files, it’s one of my favorite TV Shows. But if I want to be taken seriously, I do not go around telling folks that I actually believe in aliens living among us. I also wouldn’t be trying to make a buck off of a discovery that I’m promoting as ‘proof’ for my religion. This is all kinds of tacky, and questions the very motives for the whole thing not to mention that there are multiple problems with the actual “discovery”.
Tell me what “proof” you have Jason. And as for the name Nahom, and how Jo Smith could have known about that in Arabia, why, it’s simple. In case any did not know, Nahom, (and it’s variation Nehem) was on many maps that were circulating about since the mid-1700’s, right up to the time Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. Could one of those have fallen in the hands of Smith? Mormon apologists flatly deny it, but it cannot be ruled out completely. What we have here, is all speculation, with no basis of fact to tie anything to the Book of Mormon. What should concern Mormons is the fact that not one shred of evidence has been found in the New World to support the historicity of the Book of Mormon: the claim that there was a massive population of Jewish-Christian peoples that inhabited the Americas, who left no evidence of their existence at all.
Shem,
You’re basically repeating Mormon fodder regarding the BoA. My guess you didn’t read the excellent series of articles Andy Watson wrote and which I referenced. I suggest you get yourself up-to-speed and then come back and comment. As it is, you’re just doing a version of “I bear my testimony”.
And if you want to talk about being vulgar, you don’t have to go any further than your guru Smith for a perfect example of vulgarity. He’s the one who wrote the BoA. Go back again and look at the facsimile. That’s a funny looking “hand” protruding from the Mormon fertility god Min.
To think that this is Smith’s representation of who you call Heavenly Father. I agree it is vulgar.
LOL! This picture is not of a little outstretched hand coming out of his crotch. Every single Egyptologist in the world says that it is what Falcon describes. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.
Even Lightplanet has this commentary about figure seven,
7. A seated ithyphallic god with a hawk’s tail, holding aloft a flail. This is a form of Min, the god of the regenerative, procreative forces of nature, perhaps combined with Horus, as the hawk’s tail would seem to indicate.[75] Before the god is what appears to be a bird presenting him with a Wedjat-eye, the symbol of all good gifts.[76] In other hypocephali it can also be an ape, a snake, or a hawk-headed snake that is presenting the eye. This figure represents Nehebka, a snake god and one of the judges of the dead in the 125th chapter of the Book of the Dead.[77] Nehebka was considered to be a provider of life and nourishment,[78] and as such was often shown presenting a pair of jars or a Wedjat-eye. As for the bird found in Facsimile 2, this could symbolize the Ba or soul (which the Egyptians often represented as a bird) presenting the Wedjat-eye to the seated god.
Here is a picture of an actual hypocephalus that has not been altered as Jo Smith did with the Book of Abraham facsimilie. Why do you think they are called a hypocePHALUS
ith·y·phal·lic (th-flk)
adj.
1. Of or relating to the phallus carried in the ancient festival of Bacchus.
2. Having the penis erect. Used of graphic and sculptural representations.
3. Lascivious; salacious.
The Mormon God sitting on his throne has an erect penis. This is the world of Jo Smith and his god Min.
Aaron,
You mean that Jason the Magnificent won’t do a podcast with you? Hay he claims to be the smartest person in the room. The guy that Christians quake before with his major intellect and unsurpassed knowledge.
Well if he did agree to appear, my guess is that he’d suddenly find himself engaged in other pressing matters and send in his second.
We’ve seen his type before. They come riding in on their LDS bike and want us to be impressed that they can ride no-hands on the (LDS) handlebar.
Khor Kharfot? Another made up link to the Book of Mormon by Aston the UFO hunter. How can anyone take this guy as credible? And you mention two things Jason, but say there are THOUSANDS. Please list 25 archaeological sites that confirm the Book of Mormon with actual proof. Take your time. You’ll need it.
And your rants are so typical of those who come in, say they have proof but then say… oh, we don’t need it. OF course you don’t, because it doesn’t exist. If you want to believe in a book of fiction, that is fine. But don’t try and pawn it off on those who know better as something based in reality.
Shem said
Wow, I just pulled a JS. I just remove a word or two and can make the Bible say what I want. Se how easy that was.
Aaron said
I’m guessing Jason that since one of your first few posts was telling us how smart and Superior you are and how we can’t hang with the likes of you. So from what Aaron said I am guessing that you are dodging His podcast idea. If you are, then why? You yourself said how smart you are and how we know nothing. But yet if you won’t debate him, then maybe you’re not as smart as you claim.
Jason kind of reminds me of a guy I knew at a health club once who, while the rest of us were working out, walked around the room, stopped occasionally to do one rep and then continued to pace. I’m sure he went back to work telling everyone how much he could lift and what tremendous shape he was in. He probably believed it.
We’ve all known these types of people. The caught the biggest fish, shot the deer with the biggest rack, were on the Dean’s List and were Air Borne Rangers. In reality they never went fishing or deer hunting, didn’t attend college, weren’t in the Army and in truth spent their time playing Guitar Hero in their parent’s basement.
BTW, did I ever tell you when I met the Beatles in Hamburg, Germany in 1960 when I was an exchange student there and they asked me to sit in on a set because George had to go to the bathroom and……………………………
And I kept buying George the beers that made him go to the bathroom so you could get your chance….
Falcon
I know the Facsimile, and while I did not read everything Andy wrote in this, I did read the portion concerning this figure. The fact of the matter is that you are wrong, and it is not Joseph Smith that is being vulgar but you. You can claim whatever you want, but you saying so does not make it true.
The figure is drawn with an outstretched hand. It may be lacking in detail, but that is not surprising considering the size of it. Except the truth, as you are always telling me to do.
Was that you? Unbelievable that we should make the connection after all of these years. I remember when George got caught for being underage and got sent back to England. I stuck around for a while with Stu Sutcliff but eventually my student visa was up.
Anyway I met up with the guys again in Liverpool and…………………………………………………………………………..Therefore the Mormon Church is true!
I’ve been away for a week (health) and when I come back what do I read :
Clyde, is again posting too late at night which causes him to say some things that really don’t
add to the conversation , but he did say that Falcon was kind of a bloghog !
Shem , states that there is no connection with the Mormon Mother Goddess and the goddess
Asherah mentioned in the O.T. ( this statement was his spiritual witness ? ) , but then he states
that there is some connection ( his spiritual witness ? ) . Then he assures us that Mormons won’t
worship their own Mother Goddess . That’s kind of strange given that the quality and kind of
heart felt devotion which Mormons say their own Father in heaven deserves I would think
that She deserves also. Sad. But since there’s many Heavenly Mothers this devotion would
probably become a mess trying to implement it by Mormon leaders .
Then there’s Jasonrae, he stops by to remind those non-Mormons on here that they don’t
know the truth , they’re stuck in a low information level . I guess that means they are not smart
enough to ask the right people for the truth about Mormonism . I always thought it was by
looking at what Mormon apostles have taught, but I guess there’s smarter more informed men
around who are doing the heavy lifting of explaining Mormon doctrine to us . According to
Jason we are in peril of getting severely beat up if we engage them in dialogue . That’s good
to know , so I guess I’ll just have to settle for accepting the interpretation of Mormon doctrine
from those who are’nt so apt to beat me up and who actually claim to have the lone authority to
explain and clarify doctrine —- Mormon apostles . Or should I set my sights higher and go
with Jason’s friends ? I should pray about that .
Mike said
Well I’m a fighter and love to fight, the Bible also tells us we are in a battle, and so I guess if the gloves go on or come off either way I wont run, and if I do run, it’s only because I’m chasing you. Jason, I’m game, I wont run, and I will fight.
Rick, I can assure you nobody here is runnin away from Mormons like Jason . I’m sure , based
on your background , that if this was a physical fight you could throw him over the Wasatch Front
but it’s not a physical fight . There comes a time in which people with an attitude like he has
exhibited here , that it really does’nt prove anything to engage him in dialogue . He appears
not ready for a meaningful conversation. Apparently Aaron knows him so I’ll leave it at that .
That’s my opinion for now .
Mike,
I understand this is not a physical fight and that no one is going to run away, unless it is mormons.
I also know Jason will most likely leave as he cannot handle it here.
That aside, it seems to me you have decide to keep going after me for things I say. I have seen other people here say things that I would say, I am glad those people say and so the things they say, but it seems you only target me..
Now I will be honest, you might as well keep your opinions to yourself. It makes things harder when we argue among ourselves and it is not good. But at the same time, you say something to me about what I say or do, and I will respond with a reply back.
I might suggest just not saying anything, we have been down this road before and it wont be good.
I have heard many pastors over years say, Christianity is the only religion that shoots it’s wounded. And the Bible says, bear up with the failings of the weak. On this point I think we both fail, you feel I’m weak in points so you feel the need to say something. I feel you should keep your mouth shut, and I fail by not bearing up with you. I honestly did not miss you being gone. It’s sad, that I feel this way since you a brother, but I do. Rick
What I’ve learned from the Mormons on this blob that despite how much all of us have studied Mormonism, we don’t know anything about Mormonism, its history and beliefs. What their real problem is that they don’t like the conclusions we come to, the way we connect the dots and that we don’t “understand” it the way they do.
Now what’s interesting is that many of these Mormons appear to apply their own meaning to the facts as they are presented. Actually, as I have pointed out continually, the problem at the end of the day for Mormons is not that we don’t know the facts, or that we don’t understand their meaning but its that we don’t believe any of it.
That’s when they go into full bore “spiritual confirmation” mode which is little more than that they like Mormonism, it makes them feel good therefore it’s true because the Mormon Egyptian fertility god Min sent them the (feeling).
I keep going back to how many former Mormons will say that what led them out of Mormonism was reading the NT. For those stuck in Mormonism, the Bible is just a corrupted tome that is useful if only they can some how shape it to support the ever changing restored gospel.
At the end of the day this isn’t about the man Smith and his magic rock in the hat trick or any of the other kookie Mormon stuff, it’s about the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, what he has done for us, if we have accepted and applied His sacrifice to our sins and hence received eternal life.
You guys sure spend a tremendous amount of blood, sweat, tears and WORK to promote your no-work salvation gig.
~
Old Man, with all due respect, the ‘Old Man’ moniker can inform us of a couple things: with age comes wisdom but at the same time with age can come irrelevance – that’s the dichotomy of life. You know, old ways of thinking. Let’s hope you are on the wisdom side.
So to that point, let me quote you exactly: “The BofM is a proven fraud………period”
Most Evs willingly admit that you can’t ‘prove’ the BoM a fraud anymore than we can ‘prove’ it true. All each side can come up with is high probability evidence in either direction. And if, as you say “I’ve been around for quite a while” is actually true you should know this very basic stuff. You should know this goes for the Bible as well.
So if you want your opinion to matter then you need to let go of low-info lines like “the BoM is a proven fraud” – statements like that tend to put you in the ‘irrelevance’ category but I’ll give you a chance a redeem yourself before making a final judgement.
So either back away from your statement OR prove the BoM a fraud in three sentences. I’ll be waiting.
jason wrote:
“Most Evs willingly admit that you can’t ‘prove’ the BoM a fraud anymore than we can ‘prove’ it true.”
Really? Now I know you’re really magnificent in addition to being incredibly intelligent, insightful and probably the most spiritually connected person walking the face of the earth today.
First of all Jason, apart from your incredible arrogance, you need to know something. Mormonism isn’t even on the radar screen of “most” Christians. How do I know that? I don’t know the standard here seems to be to just say/write something and it’s true.
The market niche of Christians who are interested in and work in the mission field of Christian apologetic and counter-cult ministry is really small. “Most” Christians could care less about Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses or any number of other cultic religions.
If you asked the average Christian what the Book of Mormon is they’d say it’s a musical playing on Broadway.
So you’ve admitted that you can’t prove that the BoM is true and you’re pinning your hopes on a bogus argument that the (BoM) can’t be proven false. You are delusional my friend. The point is that Old Man or any one of us, including the number of former Mormons who contribute here, can provide you with ample evidence that the BoM does not represent actual history. But dealing with you is like dealing with a drunk who can come up with all sorts of rationale for why his excessive drinking and symptoms of alcoholism aren’t what they appear to be.
But I’m glad you’re here. You provide an opportunity for us to present information to the folks who are working their way out of Mormonism.
Falcon
The fact of the matter is that you can never prove a negative. It is impossible to prove something doesn’t exist, or that something is not true. It cannot be done, and any credible scientist will tell you this.
It is like trying to prove that there are no Unicorns. It can’t be done. All you can prove is that no one in the modern day has seen one, but that does not prove they don’t exist.
To prove the Book of Mormon false you have to prove several negatives, and thus it is impossible to prove it false. That is a simple fact of life.
Oh, and as to your understanding, I have never said you did not have the facts. It is what you do with those facts that generally proves your ignorance as to our doctrine. You can throw out any quote you like, but just because you know the quote does not mean you know what it means.
I get a kick out of Mormons who show-up here and tell us we don’t “know” anything about Mormonism. I always wonder, “How tough is it to obtain information?” This isn’t rocket science. We can find information from all sorts of original Mormon sources.
Lately our buddy Jason, borrowing a term from the most recent election “low information”, has applied it to we Christians and also his fellow Mormons.
Here’s the problem as I see it. People remain in Mormonism specifically because they are “low information”. Why do people leave Mormonism? Because they become informed.
All of the former Mormons who show-up here and post will admit to once being a low-information Mormon. This is in spite of the fact that they thought they knew their religion. Former Mormon and author Grant Palmer says about such folks, “They don’t know what they don’t know!”.
And when the explanations coming out of Mormon authorities is so blatantly naive and down right deceitful, that only adds to the angst, irritation and anger of the Mormon seeking answers.
At the end of the day, it’s all about the “testimony”. The “testimony” is the “knowing”. What we know is that isn’t enough to over come the mountain, the avalanche of information that Mormonism is false. Trying to tell the leaver that they are being deceived by “Satan” is a common ploy. It doesn’t work if the leaver won’t buy into the fear mongering.
Jesus is the answer. Not some fictitious religious system. Find Jesus and find life!
Falco,
If it can be done why don’t you step up to the plate and ‘prove’ the BoM a fraud. We’ll call it the Old Man Challenge.
And then while you’re at it why don’t you ‘prove’ that Christ resurrected from the dead. Show us all your empirical evidence – you must have loads of it.
While you’re at it why not ‘prove’ the bible is the word of God. If you can do these things you would actually make a worthwhile contribution to the board for once. Rock me Amadeus with your brilliance.
Maybe in the process Falco will learn that one can only have high probability evidence for the Bible as well. *Sigh* one should know the basics of the arena they play in. Old Man is learning it the hard way.
Shem,
The BoM is suppose to be actual history. We have all sorts of evidence coming from antiquity about world history. We have a pretty good fix on ancient peoples and events based on what archeology has provided us. None such evidence for the BoM exists.
You’re just playing around trying to use your premise to say that the BoM can’t be proven false. Of course it can. My guess is that you probably do believe in unicorns.
And BTW, speaking of information, you were totally wrong about what was reported here by myself and others regarding the god presented in the facsimile in the BoA.
I have hope for you because most of the former Mormons I now or have interacted with in the past, report having had a deep conviction of Mormonism as you do now. I think you’ll figure it out eventually like they did. I know it’s hard to even imagine that Mormonism could be false. You’re entire life is informed and shaped by it. The Good News is that you can shift your zeal, devotion and desire for God to Him who is Our Creator and Savior.
I’ll remember you specifically today in my devotional time and also when I attend services this weekend. I can see Jesus drawing you to Himself even now as I write this. That’s revelation!
jasonrae
Why do you mock me? does it help you along in your ego trip?
Shemawater said
Oh, and as to your understanding, I have never said you did not have the facts. It is what you do with those facts that generally proves your ignorance as to our doctrine. You can throw out any quote you like, but just because you know the quote does not mean you know what it means.
Falcon
You can say things without completing the correct idea. I.E. Jesus and lucifer are brothers. Leaving out that so are you and I in the eyes of God.
But Jason, you had all this proof that the BOM is grounded in reality. Where is it? You said you had “thousands” of instances of proof. I asked for 25. You started this line of thought, so let’s have yours. I’ll be waiting, and if nothing turns up I’ll know that there isn’t any.
The Book of Mormon is false because Parley P. Pratt said that it was, and he did it by way of a prophecy:
Concerning prophecy, he [La Roy Sunderland] remarks that “it cannot be proved, that one prediction in that book, which is not taken from the bible, was written before the event, said to be described.” Again he says, “there are no predictions, peculiar to this book, yet to be fulfilled, no names of persons or places, or periods of time, are referred to, by which anything definite can be known, as to what is meant by the jargon of Mormon Prophets.” Now, Mr. La Roy Sunderland, we will prove to the world that this in one of the most barefaced falsehoods ever uttered by man. The Book of Mormon contains many prophecies, yet future, with names, places, and dates, so definite, that a child may understand; indeed, it is one of the peculiar characteristics of the Book of Mormon, that its predictions are plain, simple, definite, literal, positive and very express, as to the time of their fulfilment. Notice a prediction of Nephi, page 125, second edition. “For after the book of which I have spoken, shall come forth, and be written unto the Gentiles, and sealed up again unto the Lord, there shall be many, which shall believe the words which are written, and they shall carry them forth, unto the remnant of our seed, (the Indians) and then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us; how that we came on from Jerusalem; and that they are the descendants of the Jews; and the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be declared among them; wherefore they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers; and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers; and then shall they rejoice for they shall know, that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God. And their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people. And it shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered also shall begin to believe in Christ; and they shall begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as many as shall believe in Christ, shall also be a delightsome people; and it shall come to pass, that the Lord God shall commence his work among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, to bring about the restoration of his people upon the earth. * * * For the time speedily cometh, that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy, and he will spare his people.”
Also page 121, 2d edition. “Behold that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof: for the kingdom of the devil must shake; and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance. or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger and perish; for behold at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.”
Also, page 122 2nd edition. “Woe unto all those who tremble and are angry, because of the truth of God; for behold he that is built upon the rock, receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth, lest he shall fall.” Also. page 123 2nd edition. “Woe be unto the Gentiles, says the Lord God of Hosts; for notwithstanding I shall lengthen out my arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me.” See also, page 514, and read the fate of our nation, and the fate of the Indians of America; in the day that the Gentiles should reject the fullness of the gospel.–(The Book of Mormon.) See also, page 526, where a sign is given, and the time clearly set for the restoration and gathering of Israel from their long dispersion, namely, the coming forth the Book of Mormon, should be the sign; and in the day this work should come forth, should this great event commence among all nations. Also, p. 527, where all who will not hearken to the Book of Mormon, shall be cut off from among the people; and that too, in the day it comes forth to the Gentiles and is rejected by them. And not only does this page set the time for the overthrow of our government and all other Gentile governments on the American continent, but the way and means of this utter destruction are clearly foretold; namely, the remnant of Jacob will go through among the Gentiles and tear them in pieces. like a lion among the flocks of sheep. Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off. This destruction includes an utter overthrow, and desolation of all our Cities, Forts, and Strong Folds–an entire annihilation of our race, except such as embrace the Covenant, and are numbered with Israel.
Now, Mr. Sunderland, you have something definite and tangible, the time, the manner, the means, the names, the dates; and I will state as a prophecy, that there will not be an unbelieving Gentile upon this continent 50 years hence; and if they are not greatly scourged, and in a great measure overthrown, within five or ten years from this date, then the Book of Mormon will have proved itself false. And furthermore, as Mr. LaRoy Sunderland has lied concerning the truth of Heaven, the fulness of the Gospel; and has blasphemed against the word of God, except he speedily repent, and acknowledge his lying and wickedness, and obey the message of eternal truth, which God has sent for the salvation of his people. God will smite him dumb, that he can no longer speak great swelling words against the Lord; and a trembling shall seize his nerves, that he shall not be able to write; and Zion’s Watchman shall cease to be published abroad, and its lies shall no longer deceive the public; and he will wander a vagabond on the earth, until sudden destruction shall overtake him; and if Mr. La Roy Sunderland enquires, when shall these things be? I reply, it is nigh thee–even at thy doors; and I say this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. (Parley P. Pratt, Mormonism Unveiled, 1838, p.15 – p.16)
LaRoy Sunderland lived to be an old man with all of his faculties while Parley P. Pratt was dead less then 20 years later.
Jason,
Have some respect and spell Falcon’s name the right way. It is not “Falco”. I can understand one typo, but not two. Consider yourself warned.
jasonrae
I have a few things to say, you implied that Falcon could not prove the BofM a 19th century fraud, of course he can, it’s already been done many times, you just refuse to read or understand the evidence. Following on from that, why do you mock me, does it give your already enormous ego a boost? Why would you, in such mocking tones, throw out a challenge to all & sundry saying “We’ll call it old mans challenge” We’ll call it? Have you completely lost your marbles; have you now appointed yourself a leader of some kind in here? Don’t bother replying, the questions are purely rhetorical. You mock because inwardly you know that I speak the truth, & the truth is something you cannot come to terms with.
Now a little something for you to think about.
Joseph Smith never produced a scrap of evidence to back up his claims, yet you come in here, arrogantly demanding that Christians prove the BofM is fraudulent, aren’t you putting the cart before the horse? The burden of proof lies with you my arrogant friend & if you cannot prove the book to be true then your entire belief system stands on very shaky ground.
One last word on you mocking me, it’s fine, I don’t mind, carry on mocking because every time you metaphorically open your mouth you show every discerning Christian in here exactly what you are, a man driven by a spirit who stands in opposition to God. The spirit does not mock; He does not insult & speak falsely. He does not fill a man with pride, quite the opposite in fact He humbles a man. Your arrogance shows that you know nothing of the things of God.
As for me “learning the hard way” do you think you are teaching me something? The only thing I have learned from reading your posts is revulsion.
Ps. I believe the medical term for your condition is narcissism. The religious term is possession.
Rick, you misunderstood what I was trying to say . That’s understandable since I might
have said it different , but the conclusions you drew from it about yourself was not my intent.
But we are not Jesus or Lucifer Clyde.
Jason,
Let me ask you again, Why do you tell us how smart you are and you have such Superior knowledge and were all a bunch of low info rubes, yet you cannot take on Aaron in the adam God issue and you wont tell us why you refuse. That tells me you dont have a clue and you figure if you keep talking about how smart you are maybe, just maybe we will believe you.
Also I recall many years ago, Countless numbers of Mormon Missionarys would tell me the reason so many Christians would write books about Mormons is they wanted to make a buck. Many Mormons 10-15 years ago felt they could not trust us Christians since all we wanted was to make money at there (LDS) expense, thats why believers would write books claiming LDS are wrong.
I made a promise that I would never do anything to make money from Mormons, I would not write and sell books, or make videos and sell them or anything to that effect.
Yet Grindael points out the Mormon guy making lots of money doing BoM tours. I have to agree, how can we trust this guy if he is trying to make a buck at the expense of trying to prove the BoM.
Old Man, These are your exact words:
“You say I can’t prove the B0fM a fraud; I most certainly can & could do so in a few short sentences.”
This is amazing. You and a thousand others can offer your opinion only. You have No and I mean absolutely ZERO empirical evidence that the BoM is a fraud. And apparently I have to repeat again that you have No and I mean absolutely ZERO empirical evidence that the Bible is the true word of God. The things that matter most to us in regards to religious exegesis are the things that must be accepted on faith. ALL informed Biblical scholars will tell you this. You have NO proof.
Now you DO have archaeological discoveries, place-names etc that lend high probability evidence to the claims made in the Bible. Copious discoveries have come to light in the past decade that give the same for the BoM. But it’s still ALL faith. You believe Christ rose from the dead, so do we. It’s all faith. We believe Christ visited the remnants of the House of Israel in the America’s, you do not. It’s ALL faith. Clearly you should know this.
But yet after all that you still make this statement:
“I have a few things to say, you implied that Falcon could not prove the BofM a 19th century fraud, of course he can, it’s already been done many times, you just refuse to read or understand the evidence.”
WHAT EVIDENCE?!?!?!?!? What do you have?? For once just POST it. Post the “few short sentences” that will settle the issue once and for all. I mean, are you confusing @nti Mormon books with empirical evidence?? That’s ALL I can think of. I just don’t get it. I’m lost on this one. Hands up in the air. SMH.
The good news is, once you come to this conclusion the light will go on. And you will begin to see with new eyes. Will that take you out of the low-effort scam salvation fraud pushed by the Evs? I have no idea. But you will at least see things the way they really are.
~
Wow Grindael, bringing out the Red marker and all. Who knew Falcon’s name was so sacred. From now on we will call him: “The One Who’s Name Shall Not be Spoken”.
Your long-winded Parley P. Pratt post proves absolutely nothing regarding the authenticity and divine production of the BoM. Like Old Man and Falcon you can bring forth items that shade and color ones viewpoint but you have no empirical proof.
The comment section in a blog is not the place for scholarly research and book-like postings. Typically we just post top-of-mind thoughts and move on. Curriculum vitae and thesis-level musings are decidedly overdoing it.
If you really want the copious amounts of high probability evidence for the authenticity of the BoM I go back to my earlier suggestion of a meetup. But considering the fate of Erskine I don’t blame you for bowing out.
Jason, First let me say this, I dont blame you for bowing out and not talking to Aaron, It would prove you have no game and you would not want us to know the truth that you cannot handle that issue with Aaron.
Now with that said, You keep asking for evidence and claiming everything is by faith. That is true for Mormons, it is blind faith since their is no evidence.
The Bible says in Acts 17:11, they searched the scriptures to know if these things were true. That means they had evidence to support their faith. The Bible tells us in the Gospel of John, These things were written that we know the truth. Then John the baptist asked for evidence when he was in Jail. Jesus replied with, Go tell John, the lame are healed, the dead are raised, etc. So Jesus gave us evidence to prove who he was. God in the OT tells us to declare the things that are to come and prove the gods are real.
Our faith is based upon evidence, you can go to Netflix, or even you tube, Type in the name Lee Strobel, His wife was a christian, he was a very angry atheist who set out to prove Christianity was false, he said the evidence was so over whelming he became a believer, Not only was Lee an atheist, but he was a reporter, so he knew how to look up info and fact check. It did not happen over night, it took years. He has like I said, Videos on you tube and netflix. He does the case for Christ Video.
You can also look up Josh McDowell He also was an angry atheist who was a lawyer who set out to prove the Bible wrong, but became a believer because the evidence was so overwhelming.
The evidence for the Book of Mormon is not like that, You told Grindael that you could produce 1000 of facts, he said just give him 25, he even reminded you of that and you ignored him, now I will remind you, if you cannot produce this evidence you claim you have, then might I suggest you stop talking about it. If you claim you have evidence and dont provide it, or you claim how smart you are, but wont debate someone (Aaron) after being asked, Then stop telling us you have scared people off because they cannot hang with you in a debate, and stop telling us were not providing evidence, when your doing exactly what you accuse us of. Thats is called being a hypocrite.
Rick,
Unless you have had a personal visit from Jesus Christ and you have felt the nail prints in His hands and His feet you live by faith. Regardless of how much ‘evidence’ you accumulate.
I have knowledge that the BoM is true that is born of the spirit. I have a personal witness – that is the way to gain sure knowledge in religious affairs. But that does YOU no good. My witness does not help you in any way unless it inspires you to get your own.
You can claim your faith is all based on ‘evidence’ but it’s ALL contextual – you know that right? You have nothing empirical. If I copy/paste it a thousand times will you guys finally get it?
My point is that you just need to know what you actually have and what you do not have. And you have contextual and that’s it when it comes to evidence. Outside of that you MUST have a witness born of the spirit. Without that we are tinkling cymbals and sounding brass.
Aaron throws out the Adam God podcast idea as a total red herring. It’s meaningless and carries zero weight. Why you want to glom onto that like it’s something is beyond me.
Why do I need to post an evidence book for Grindael on the BoM discoveries? He knows where to find it and can peruse at his leisure. I mean he hung out at Woodstock and lived through race riots – I’m sure he can do a tad bit of research. It’s all there, easy to find.
And I’ve already been crystal clear that we do not use ‘evidence’ to prove the BoM anyway. Here’s a repeat of that thought:
We don’t need NHM, Khor Kharfot, Oman and a thousand other things coming to light to ‘prove’ the BoM true – not at all – and that’s never been the goal. But what it does do (and quite nicely) is prove without question that the junk psychology of Brodie et al is exactly that. It wipes out over 200 hundred years of @nti thinking. That’s all it does. And that’s all we need it to do. We’re not out looking for evidence to assuage a testimony or some such nonsense.
Jasonrae
Don’t you just love using big words, & you’ve just given me another, empirical, let’s have a look at the definition.
Empirical proof: Dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses, direct or indirect evidence.
You want some direct evidence? Try this.
Joseph Smith admitted to a neighbour that the BofM was a fabrication.
Is that direct enough? That one piece of evidence would be enough to put Smith away for years
You want indirect evidence?
Smith tried to sell the copyright of the book. Bear in mind that this was a book translated by the power of God & was to be used (presumably) for the restoration of the Gospel.
That’s indirect & would certainly be accepted as evidence in any court today
You want more indirect evidence? How about an anachronism or two?
Glass is talked about in the book, a substance that would not put in an appearance for another 1500 years.
Wheeled chariots are mentioned even thought the wheel was unknown at that time & in that region.
That’s just a few pieces of direct & indirect evidence for you but if you care to include the rest of the definition “observable by the senses” the evidence for fraud becomes overwhelming.
I’m sure it’s been noticed by those reading here that you follow the typical Mormon pattern of totally ignoring the things that you cannot answer, I said the burden of proof lies with you, & so it does, why do you ignore that? Could it possibly be that you know I am right when I say that Smith never produced a scrap of evidence to prove his case?
You demanded that I present evidence & this I have done, now in return present your evidence showing that the BofM is not a 19th century fraud & that J, Smith was indeed a prophet. Please stop insulting everyone here by claiming to have a testimony. Your arrogance & mocking attitude is proof enough that any testimony you may have is NOT from God. No one who knows the indwelling of the Spirit could talk as you do. Read my previous post because it’s pretty clear that you have, like all Mormons, been cherry picking.
“Why do I need to post an evidence book for Grindael on the BoM discoveries”
Why? because that’s exactly what you’re asking others to do I have done what you requested, are you prepared to do the same?
Incidentally, B.H. Roberts, one of the most astute & honest men in the employ of the LDS church, an accredited historian, spent years examining all the documents pertaining to the BofM that were available. The church wanted him to find the proof it desperately needed as to the truth of the BofM & what, after years of research were his conclusions? The book was almost certainly a figment of Smiths fertile imagination. Bear in mind that he had at his disposal far more in the way of evidence than is available to non-Mormons. I don’t really need to provide any proof do I? Your church already has it but chooses to keep it hidden.
So Jason, take up your case with your church; they have all the evidence needed to prove me right.
Yea Shem/Clyde,
I/we Christians come to the wrong conclusions regarding Mormonism? No I come to the right conclusions. I’m not a believer so I don’t have to swallow the Kool-Aid and come up with fantastic explanations for what the prophet really meant or what the historical facts really point to.
Mormonism isn’t that complex or difficult to understand. It’s not nuanced. The old timers like Smith, Young and even McConkie weren’t shy about what they said or meant. It’s you modern day Mormons who are left to do creative interpretation and spin.
For example when Young said that the Mormon god had actual physical sex with the Virgin Mary he was speaking as the prophet and meant what he said. Take it at face value. When he taught Adam-god as the prophet, that’s what he meant. When he “revealed” blood atonement it was what he said it was. When Joseph Smith was picked-up for glass-looking by the authorities he was indeed hiring out to look in the ground for buried treasure. When Smith tried to seduce a woman by telling her that an angel appeared to him with a sword threatening to kill him if he didn’t marry more women that’s what happened. There’s no need for interpretation.
You boys need a stiff dose of reality.
grindeal,
I think our friend Jason is basically here to poison the well. I think it’s time he sit in the Mormon Coffee corner.
Old Man,
I was trying to come up with a diagnoses today. Thank you for that.
Jason,
The “red marker” is to let one know they are acting disrespectfully. That you are. And you can’t seem to even politely acknowledge it. We all know you’re a blow hard. You offer nothing but snide comments. But this IS Mormon intellectualism at its best.
Since Pratt is was and still is an apostle in good standing and gave a false prophecy, it proves that Mormonism isn’t what it claims to be, and therefore the BOM is false. Now that was easy. Take your yearly sabbatical, your high school intellectualism is boring.
Mormons don’t use evidence for a good reason. There isn’t any.
The thing about God, is that he provided evidence and his word is non contradictory. You can’t even come close with Jo Smith. Jesus said,
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
Um, you do know Jason, that Empiricism is the system of pursuing knowledge through observation and experiment and that in the empirical system everything must be checked out through the senses.
One must be able to smell, see, touch, hear, or taste in order to know or come to a conclusion. The empirical method or the empiricist is one who depends on experience or observation alone, without regard to theory or faith.
But I’m sure you knew that, right? As for empirical evidence, we do have it. We know that much of the Bible story has been verified by archaeology. An Isaiah scroll was found that was dated to before the time of Christ and it is the same as what we have today (another Jo Smith lie exposed). I can go on and on with actual physical proof like this story of the finding of Goliath’s name on pottery from the right period of time. There is NOTHING from the Book of Mormon, even in places where we were told by Smith and his cronies that great wars were fought with millions of people. NOTHING.
Sorry, I see Old Man beat me to the empirical punch.
You said you had evidence. You bragged about it. Either put up or shut up. And as for Adam God, yeah Young taught it and that is who he worshiped. No Mormon will touch it, except a few like the late Matthew Brown, but he did such a bad job of lying and omitting that it’s an embarrassment. I’m sure he would be kicking himself now for being so stupid – if he could.
Cop out. Like you have “copious amounts of high probability evidence”. Are you a comedian by profession? But that is all you’re good for isn’t it Jason, copping out. But you are a funny guy. BOM evidence. LOL that’s really FUNNY! And yeah, let’s meet. You can come to Buffalo. I’m all for that. I can show you the totally evidence lacking Hill Cumorah.