Perhaps the most compelling parallel that can be made between Mormon temples and Solomon’s temple is that the Israelites disobediently put an “Asherah pole” — an object which honored Asherah, the wife of Baal (which idolatrous Israelites assumed to be also the wife of Yahweh) — into the temple. Kings and Chronicles repeatedly makes the issue of Asherah a measuring rod when describing the rebellion and idolatry and wickedness of God’s people and the kings of Israel. In the great reform, the Asherah pole was chopped down and burned to ashes (2 Kings 23:6).
Today, Mormons resurrect worship of Asherah in at least two ways:
1. They essentially teach and believe in Heavenly Mother, and this worldview is the framework which informs the endowment ceremony, which under-girds the sealing ceremonies (i.e. sealings are necessary for women to become cosmic queens, goddesses, to further the genealogy of the gods), and the rare second anointings, where women are given assurance, short of subsequently committing murder, of celestial exaltation unto godhood.
2. After re-enacting the Fall, the Mormon participants in the LDS endowment ceremony are told by Satan to run, hide, and make a green apron-covering for themselves, to hide their nakedness. The acted drama or movie is literally stopped to give LDS participant time to obey Satan. The narrator then instructs them to put on their green aprons. In Mormonism, the decision to eat of the forbidden fruit is construed as being wise, righteous, holy, and worth imitating. It is celebrated for allegedly then enabling Adam and Eve to birth mortal children. Whereas Biblically the shameful self-covering of Adam and Eve was replaced with the animal-skin covering that God provided (pointing to Christ), Mormons put the green apron on in a celebratory fashion, not a shameful one. They even put it on over the alleged divine covering (the white undergarments). Mormons are often even buried in their casket with the green apron on. The green apron may be seen as a celebration of the fertility that came with the Fall, when they obeyed Satan’s enticing. Since Asherah was a goddess of fertility, I can’t help but see the connection: not only are modern Mormon apologists like Kevin Barney calling for worship of Asherah as Heavenly Mother(!), Mormons have inadvertently paid homage to the goddess of fertility in a demonic temple ceremony.
Shem,
I think that I/we have made some progress with you. You mow admit that we have “knowledge” but that we come to the wrong conclusions. That’s quite an admission. We are no longer a bunch of stupid dolts that don’t have the ability to access information out there.
I often point out that Rick and I in particular have been accused of not having the right information about Mormonism but when we ask the Mormon posters to tell us what is wrong with our information they go silent.
I noticed that when Andy Watson did his series of excellent articles on the doctrine of the Trinity, its history and theology, you disappeared. That indicated to all of us you weren’t all that interested in the knowledge piece of the puzzle.
You also had a hard time discrediting the information that JS used the Egyptian fertility god Min in a rather unattractive pose to represent the Mormon god.
I don’t think you’re really interested in knowledge, information and evidence. What I think you are interested is attempting to protect those “convictions in the spirit” that you say confirm to you that what you believe is true. That’s why Mormons end-up sounding so ridiculous. It’s also why scholars don’t take Mormons seriously.
Take the case of Thomas Stuart Ferguson:
“Frustrated by the lack of evidence to support the Book of Mormon that he so strongly believed in from the beginning of his archeological mission, Ferguson became a closet doubter while upholding his public Mormon image and never leaving the Mormon Church.”
“”People must believe in something. (Otherwise we face the abyss of death and extinction.) Mormonism is probably the best conceived myth-fraternity to which one can belong….Joseph Smith…can be refuted—but why bother when all religion is based on myth, and when man must have them, and his is one of the very best.” (p. 151).”
“So why try to be heroic and fight the myths—the Mormon one or any other that does more good than ill? Perhaps you and I have been spoofed by Joseph Smith. Now that we have the inside dope—why not spoof a little back and stay aboard?” (p. 152)”
The entire article can be accessed at :
http://www.mrm.org/quest-for-the-gold-plates
That is if you are really interested in knowledge. TESTIMONY ALERT: Read with caution.
Old Man,
A quick thought on anachronisms that will cover ALL anachronisms:
In Joseph Smith’s time everyone knew without a doubt that the Arabian coastline was rocky and barren. And, they were right. Everything that had been explored up to that time WAS rocky and barren. So therefore Nehpi’s ‘Bountiful’ HAD to be a joke. There’s just no way there was a lush garden area with wild honey, fruit, fresh water, iron ore on the surface, large trees etc.
So on that basis for over a hundred years critics loudly proclaimed the BoM an absolute fraud. There was no question. In fact, here’s an example:
A popular @nti-Mormon book a few years back made this statement:
” ..Having crossed the peninsula, Nephi relates that they came to the shore of a body of water (which could only have been the Persian Gulf), and here they encountered a fruitful land, which they named ‘Bountiful’ because of its much fruit and wild honey. Here, again, is a blunder of ignorance of known factors. The coastline of the Persian Gulf was utterly inhospitable and barren. Even Alexander’s seasoned generals were unable or unwilling to negotiate this route three hundred years later. “
Starting to get the point? It is flawed thinking to say that because the BoM mentions X and X has not been discovered yet the BoM is a fraud. That rule goes for ANY book claiming to be authentic. Including the Bible.
Shem said it plainly in an earlier post: You cannot prove a negative. It’s impossible. By your method we could toss out the Bible simply because there is NO evidence for the Exodus. Zero.
So what was once a critics bulls-eye became a very sober inclusion on the high probability evidence stack in favor of BoM authenticity. Why? Because it would have been impossible for Joseph Smith to pinpoint and describe in accurate detail a tiny location on a continent thousands of miles away that had yet been explored. So you have to ask yourself HOW did he do it when no one else alive and all contemporary knowledge proclaimed the opposite? Something outside of the norm is clearly going on.
Is it ‘proof’ the Bom is true? No. Does it add to our technology stack? Yes.
More importantly you can see first hand a small sample of critic sloppiness when it comes to the hard research necessary for writing competent books about the Book of Mormon. A task very few are capable of.
Glass dates back to 3000 BC in Egypt and could certainly go back further and wheeled vehicles before 2000 BC. You are basically claiming that ancient Israelites of circa 600 BC could not have taken Egyptian technology and knowledge along with them on their journey. Not a wise position to take.
You also claim “Joseph Smith admitted to a neighbour that the BofM was a fabrication.” Wow. This is a CLASSIC case of low-info. You have not one shred of proof for that statement. We all know Joseph bore strong testimony of the BoM his entire life. Yet you have a single “claim” from an @nti book, from a “neighbour” that Joseph said such and such. Unsubstantiated rumor and local frontier gossip of the time is simply not the proof you are looking for. This is clearly not your best.
Selling the copyright has absolutely ZERO to do with the empirical evidence we need to prove the BoM a fraud.
Old Man, it’s extremely important that you understand method. And that is that regardless of what you find you can no more ‘prove’ the BoM a fraud than you can ‘prove’ that Christ rose from the dead. You simply cannot bring 100% proof unless you were an eyewitness to specific events.
That’s what I’ve been trying to get you to understand. If we play by your uninformed rules the Bible is out. NO evidence for the Exodus. No evidence that Christ really walked on water. Or turned water into wine. No evidence for the resurrection and on and on.
It’s all faith and / or knowledge born of a spiritual witness from God.
Old Man,
So more to the point of Bountiful. Bountiful is there. We know that now. Joseph however did not. Not only is Bountiful there but is exactly situated less than one degree from due east of Nehem (Nahom). How do we know we have the right ‘Nahom’?
Nephi’s directions are specific: a south south-east journey along the borders (mountain borders) of the Red Sea. Our Nahom candidate has to have a burial ground since we know Ishmael was buried there. (1 Nephi 16:35–39)
Today there is a vast burial ground at the Nahom location. Thousands of grave mounds populate the area. This is a fairly recent discovery. Joseph had no way of knowing about it. Is this 100% proof? No. But it gives us plausible enough information to see if we can find a fitting Bountiful location if we go due east from that point. And we have. And the Bountiful we need is there.
The description of Bountiful in the BoM is clear and critical to the issue – each point must match up or we have nothing. Each item including the directions must match up:
* Bountiful was nearly eastward from a place called Nahom (1 Nephi 17:1).
* Terrain and water sources from Nahom eastward apparently permitted reasonable access from the interior deserts to the coast (1 Nephi 17:1–3).
* Bountiful was a fertile region (1 Nephi 17:5–6).
* It was a coastal location (1 Nephi 17:5–6).
* Fruit and wild honey and possibly other food sources were available (1 Nephi 17:5–6; 18:6).
* The availability of fruit (1 Nephi 17:5–6; 18:6) and the plentiful nature of the region suggests the availability of fresh water at this location as well.
* Timber was available that could be used to construct a ship (1 Nephi 18:1).
* A mountain was nearby (1 Nephi 17:7; 18:3).
* Substantial cliffs existed near the ocean from which Nephi’s brothers might attempt to throw him into the sea (1 Nephi 17:48).
* Sources of flint available in the region. (1 Nephi 17:11)
* Ore (1 Nephi 17:9–10) was available in the region.
* Suitable wind and ocean currents were available to carry a vessel out into the ocean (1 Nephi 18:8–9).
Each above point does match up.
So let’s consider the incredible difficulty of even claiming that there was a lush fertile land on the coast of Southern Oman that is exactly due east of NHM. Khor Kharfot is a very well hidden area even today and totally unknown to anyone in America in 1829. To even make the claim that such a place existed in the deserts of Arabia in 1829, as I said in the previous post, was met with ridicule.
One task you might want to tackle is to provide plausible source documentation showing where Joseph Smith got his very intimate detailed information on Arabia.
For example, the exploratory knowledge of ancient Arabia obtained by Carsten Niebuhr (German cartographer) (which doesn’t concern any of the parts of Arabia we are discussing) was extremely hard won knowledge. Meaning that he had to be there to get it. And just being on the ground as an explorer in Arabia takes a tremendous amount of effort and work.
So it is with Joseph. This intimate detailed knowledge of ancient Saudi Arabia can only come by being there. It comes in no other way. A deep study of the BoM and one would have to conclude that Joseph Smith spent a very large portion of his life there, on the ground, camping, exploring that continent from top to bottom. But, it is well known that Joseph Smith never left the Americas.
So when we conclude that Joseph wasn’t there we have to conclude that someone was. Nephi maybe? I lean yes on that since there’s no other way to gain the exacting, exhausting detailed information.
However, if we are to believe you and Grindael, 23 year old Joseph knew more about Saudi Arabia than ANY man alive in the world in 1829. And without ever setting foot on that continent he was able to describe directions and locations in great detail with amazing accuracy. You guys are describing a super genius.
So at least for First Nephi the weight of the evidence that we do have is clearly on the side of the BoM being an authentic historical record with accurate directions to a hidden location in the deserts of Arabia – a true treasure indeed.
And, by rejecting the power of God you are forced to give a 23 year old uneducated farmboy powers far beyond any other man of his time in order to explain the astounding detail and in-depth knowledge he had of foreign lands he had never been to as well as the unprecedented knowledge of ancient customs, rites and ceremonies that the BoM is filled with.
But does that give us 100% proof? Not at all. Does it add to our high probability tech stack? Yes it does. Does it nuke the Brodie-style scandal stories you cherish so dearly? Clearly.
Jason wrote:
“However, if we are to believe you and Grindael, 23 year old Joseph knew more about Saudi Arabia than ANY man alive in the world in 1829. And without ever setting foot on that continent he was able to describe directions and locations in great detail with amazing accuracy. You guys are describing a super genius.”
No Jason, what Joseph Smith had going for him was a very excellent magic rock by which he could conjure all sorts of information. The rock never allowed him to find Captain Kidd’s treasure that he so badly sought buried in the ground but it did allow him to receive messages from the spirit world.
How else could he have known all of this detailed information about Saudi Arabia?
BTW, did he talk at all about the oil under the sand there and prophesy to its role in the future?
Man, for lack of a magic rock we are destitute.
Jason, we need to arrange to have you present this information to a group of scholars who are knowledgeable in this particular field.
Did you supply any sources of your information in your above post? You didn’t come up with this on your own, did you?
Jason,
Consider me a skeptic, which I am, but I’m also a guy who reads a lot of student papers from college students and………….well let me just say that there are times I get a nagging suspicion that something just isn’t quite right. That’s the feeling I get when reading your above posts.
So tell me where you copied the above information from. I’m not saying you did a cut and paste because I think you’re a little to clever for that but you are getting it from somewhere.
For example:
“………the exploratory knowledge of ancient Arabia obtained by Carsten Niebuhr (German cartographer) (which doesn’t concern any of the parts of Arabia we are discussing) was extremely hard won knowledge. Meaning that he had to be there to get it. And just being on the ground as an explorer in Arabia takes a tremendous amount of effort and work.”
The phrase “was extremely hard won knowledge.” I think you lifted that from some source. Now I don’t care that you do that but share with us your source. I think that the phrase “the exploratory knowledge of ancient Arabia obtained by Carsten Niebuhr” got lifted also I think. Again, I really don’t care about the liberties you take when writing but I’d like to know where you got it.
See if I know your sources then I can check them out and see if they are valid and reliable. I’m just giving you a couple of examples.
Jason I have a theory about you but I think everyone can pretty much figure it out. I don’t have to present it. If you want to maintain your need to be thought of as the smartest guy in the room, I think you can pull it off down at the wards. Around here, not so much.
So I’m just doing a little searching around and I find this article:
http://www.mormonthink.com/mormonstudiesdefense.htm
This would be a good one for our scholar Jason to read, study and respond to.
I’m thinking Jason probably visits the Maxwell Institutes site quite a bit and probably has hooked himself into the Nephi Project, maybe just my speculation and opinion.
But I doubt if he ever considers to read anything that examines their work.
Falcon,
I assure you, the entire post, both posts are mine and mine alone. Not sourced or lifted from anyone else. The only thing not mine is the bullet list of Bountiful points – those are source from the BoM directly by whom I forgot – the list is simply in my stack and I included it.
The phrase you cite:
….the exploratory knowledge of ancient Arabia obtained by Carsten Niebuhr (German cartographer) (which doesn’t concern any of the parts of Arabia we are discussing) was extremely hard won knowledge. Meaning that he had to be there to get it. And just being on the ground as an explorer in Arabia takes a tremendous amount of effort and work.”
Is my own. And I can give you more:
Remember Lewis & Clark? The ONLY way anyone in the world gets detailed information about lands they’ve NEVER been to is by going there. It’s sort of how our world works. You need to explain how Joseph Smith got the detailed information. If your explanation isn’t plausible then we must conclude that Nephi was the one actually on the ground there. It’s as simple as that.
Why don’t you just admit that yes it would have been impossible for Joseph Smith to have known these details? You don’t have to accept him as a prophet but at least be honest with the evidence. You know someone had to be on the ground in ancient Arabia to know the details – they come in no other way.
The above comments are mine and mine alone.
Just a couple of tid bits from the above link:
(Reynolds 1997, 382). Reynolds asks:
How did he [Joseph Smith] know that a group traveling due east from NHM [Nehem] would meet the sea at a uniquely fertile and hospitable spot that was suitable for building and launching a ship? How did he know that Oman had ample resources for ship building and sailing, and that there were mountains and cliffs on the sea shore itself?
These important details run directly counter to all knowledge of Arabia in Joseph Smith’s day and to most popular belief about Arabia even today. The simplest and most reasonable explanation is that Joseph Smith and his contemporaries did not know these things . . . . (Reynolds 1997, 388)
“As sources for his information on Arabia, Gibbon lists not only ancient writers like Pliny and Strabo, but also the works of Pocock, who published extracts and notes on Arabian antiquities in his Specimen Historiae Arabum. Gibbon also refers a number of times to books by Carsten Niebuhr and Jean Bourguignon D’Anville, who published maps of Arabia.”
Here’s the concluding sentence to the above paragraph.
” Nephi’s account does not require any more knowledge of Arabia than was available in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries.”
Ah reality does indeed bite!
Jason said
Jason,
Here are sources you can look into and see that Jesus did in fact rise from the dead. One is Christian, many are Secular or Atheist and why would secular sources or atheist sources admit to this if it is not true? Then some are Jewish sources, but these Jewish sources are non-Christian and non believing Jews. So again, why would Jews who dont believe in Jesus admit to Him rising from the dead?
Josh McDowell ‘The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict’. 1999 Chapter 5
‘Jesus, A Man of History’. Pages 119-136.
Secular Authorities
Cornelius Tacitus (c 55-120) wrote on Roman Emperors and the death of Christ and Christians in Rome. 120.
Lucian of Samosata a Greek satirist that scorned Christ and Christians. 121.
Suetonius a Roman historian. 121.
Pliny the Younger. A Governor that was killing Christians on behalf of the Emperor. 122.
Thallus. 122.
Phlegon. 122-123.
Mara-Bar-Seapion. 123.
Jewish
The Talmud. Refers to Christ and his death 123-124. Christ is explained as a sorcerer, magician and deceiver (with further commentary added).
Josephus, an historian. 124-126.
The importance of historical connection to the Post-Apostolic writers, the Church Fathers, 130-136 is also noted.
Commentaries and dictionaries are essential for background info, some I have:
BROWNING, W.R.F. (1997) Oxford Dictionary of the Bible, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
GUNDRY, ROBERT (1981) A Survey of the New Testament, Grand Rapids, Zondervan.
HAMILTON, VICTOR P. (1988) Handbook on the Pentateuch, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
LA SOR, W.S., D.A HUBBARD and F.W BUSH (1987) Old Testament Survey, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
Jason said
How exactly is this a red Herring? I notice that many mormons from years ago believed Adam God teaching, BY said it was Doctrine and Scripture. Now it is called False, if he taught it as scripture and Doctrine and now it is false, the BY lead people astray and is a fasle prophet. Your Doctrine changes faster than your magic underwear. Sadly you claim to be the smartest guy here, but then make excuses for avoiding a topic you cannot defend.
Jason said
You need to because you said
You claimed their is 1000’s of proofs and Grindael asked you to provide a list of 25 and asked twice I believe. You said it so you should have no problem backing it up, if you cannot back it up then how can it be true? If it is not true, then you have no evidence as you claim, if it is true and all this evidence exists then it should be no problem to provide. Or are you doing as your father, telling lies?
Wow Falcon, you are rich. The posts are my own. Typed from my brain without reference books or articles. If you want to continue to rail on about how one may synthesize content after years of study then have at it but you will be vaporized.
The truth is @nti- heads are spinning and hands are wringing wondering how it can be so. But such is the work of God in every age. So the next time you guys get out the magic markers and poster board and head down to the Manti pageant all of this will be lurking in the back of your mind – how you got utterly lost in Saudi Arabia with the dizzying array of evidence pouring forth from that continent bearing testimony of the divine authenticity of the BoM.
It should be clear to all that once you move outside of the hyperbolic National Enquirer stories about Joseph Smith (and now me I guess) and into the real world of on-the-ground research you are clearly out of your element.
Falcon,
“Nephi’s account does not require any more knowledge of Arabia than was available in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries.”
The eastward turn of the frankincense trail from Nahom was not known in Joseph’s day. Bountiful was not known in Joseph’s day – did you not read the anachronism post for Old Man? NO ONE knew about Bountiful. Nor did they know the extensive details listed in my other post.
That Nahom was an ancient burial ground was NOT known in Joseph’s day. Joseph had no way of knowing that one could travel due east from Nahom and end in a lush fertile garden area. NHM (Nahom) dating back to 600 BC was absolutely not known in Joseph Smiths day.
Are you aware Falcon of the votive altars found by a (non-LDS) German archaeology team at the Marib, Bar’an Temple in the Nahom region with the NHM inscription dating back to 600 BC when Lehi and clan were on the move?
Joseph had NO way of knowing that NHM could actually be dated back to 600 BC – that is a recent discovery as cited above. The German team dates the altars and the NHM inscription to 600 BC – not LDS researchers.
To be honest Falcon, your arguments are a bit on the amateur side. I mean you actually want us to buy your claim that 23 year old Joseph was the only person alive in 1829 that knew of:
1. A perennial stream in the deserts of Arabia (now proven)
2. That the ancient frankincense trail turned east at a place called NHM (unknown at the time)
3. That there was a fertile coastal location east of NHM (maybe he used Google maps)
4. That there was honey, fruit, trees, fresh water etc (all now proven)
The above items and more were simply not know in “in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries” as your copy/paste suggests.
Falcon,
One more thing. You are aware that bees are unique to the Dhofar region in Arabia right? I assume you know that the majority of the Arabian peninsula is desert and not very hospitable to bees – and one would be taking quite a stretch to claim bees in Joseph’s day. Huge career risk.
But yet, one can go to Khor Kharfot TODAY and stand near a fresh water inlet and look across the escarpment and visually see the caves where the wild honey bees still reside to this day. You can go there and see the flora and fauna yourself.
For one to give precise directions from Jerusalem to NHM then precise directions from NHM to Bountiful and then to describe a garden scene in such detail on the outskirts of one of the world’s most hostile deserts would require BOOTS ON THE GROUND. It’s amazing that this has to be spelled out to you. Just astounding.
As per my prior post, do you think Lewis & Clark just sat at home and conjured up the rich accurate details of frontier America? That’s basically the line you are trying to sell us when you say Joseph did exactly that when informed folks know the world doesn’t work that way.
~
What you cite is not empirical evidence. How many times? How MANY times do we have to go over this? Do you know what an incredible thing it would be for the entire world if YOU Mr. Rick B. actually had empirical physical hard evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? You would be famous the world over. Everyone would know your name. Every magazine every television show podcasts out the ying and on and on.
YOU DON’T HAVE IT.
Man Jason.
You came up with all of this on your own? No sources? Man you must be the smartest guy around. Unbelievable intellect. No sources! You’re just sitting there in your parents’ basement and all of this information just shows-up in your head? WOW!!
You’re quite a guy. Maybe Smith wasn’t the only one with a magic rock!
So Jason,
Your saying that if we look at History and we have eye witness written accounts and that is no evidence and not good enough, Then I guess we might as well fire all the historians and throw out all books of history ever written since any books written about presidents that existed before we were alive Like Lincoln and Washington since they were all written by eye witness and history bears it out.
Then also the issue your having with Falcon and talking about Bountiful how can we trust what you say since you were not their, you did not walk the grounds and were not alive back then. I mean lets get serious, if we use your logic then we cannot believe anything ever written.
We know also that the Bible tells us we are and will be without excuse after we die. So if the Bible says we will be with out excuse, then we have a problem because when Atheists die, or JW’s or Muslims or anyone who has a false gospel or no belief in God, then how can God be fair and just when it comes to punishing them? They can simply say, I’m sorry God, their was no evidence to believe in You, so How can I be held accountable when their was zero evidence you existed?
Jason, What you dont have and prove you dont is brains and evidence, You claim to be so smart, yet dont have the guts to take on Aaron and talk about your false prophet and explain why he gave false doctrine out and lead many to eternal damnation with his false Adam God. Just Like Jesus said, Your father was a lair from the beginning and you speak His language.
Jason said
Jason, Here is the Problem and why we need evidence and not just Blind faith as you have.
I Rick B also have knowledge that the Bible is true and the BoM is false, that is born of the spirit. I have a personal witness – that is the way to gain sure knowledge in religious affairs. But that does YOU no good. My witness does not help you in any way unless it inspires you to get your own.
So it seems we have a problem, You believe the Bible is corrupt and the BoM is true, You claim the spirit told you this was true, I believe the Bible is true and the BoM is false, and I believe the spirit bore this out to me and God said so. So I guess since we are at a standstill on this point we need evidence. God gave us evidence in the Bible by telling us in great exacting detail through His prophets, His Son Jesus and roughly 1,800 prophecy’s what would come. This is evidence.
Yet when it come to the BoM, we have reformed Egyptian Language that does not exist, I can go to school and learn Greek, Hebrew, Spanish, French, or hundreds of other Languages, Yet I cannot learn Reformed Egyptian.
Then we have JS and his 9 first visions, that span years and contradict each other. Then we have the failed prophecy’s of JS. I read JS say a temple would be built in his generation in Missouri, that temple has not been built and the property is not even owned buy Mormons. This is just a few problems with Mormonism.
So, we are back to Nihim. Le’t pronounce it the way the locals do, shall we? Nahom was a French cartographers way of writing this in the 1700’s, with the variation of Nehem. The word Nahom appeared on maps from the era of Jo Smith, along with it’s variation above. So there was a way that Smith could have seen a map of Arabia at the time and gotten that name.(AND THE LOCATION) As for Nihim, this argument is pure speculation and nothing about is “empirical” towards the Book of Mormon. Here is why. Aston’s story:
“In the Fall of 2000 I was one of three people leading a group of nearly 40 Latter-day Saints along the Lehi trail. We began in Jerusalem, then descended into the Arabah wilderness, traveling south until we reached the Red Sea. We next flew south to Yemen to pick up the trail. After visiting the Nahom tribal area we drove in convoy to the ancient ruins of Marib, the legendary city of the Queen of Sheba thousands of years ago. And there, in the midst of the desert, an unexpected and most extraordinary event took place.
Some time earlier, a series of museums in Europe began exhibiting a collection of treasures from Yemen’s past. One of the items in the catalog reported an inscription on an altar that had been excavated at the Barán temple in Marib. I had been to the site years earlier. There was little to be seen then other than five and a half very tall pillars standing above the sand on which local boys would pose for pictures. It was a desolate place. A German team had unearthed the entire temple complex including the altar, dated to around 600-700 BC. What was significant was that the altar inscription named a donor who was the grandson of a man from the Nihm tribe.
We already knew that the Semitic consonants NHM referred to a tribal area that seemed likely to be the place called Nahom, where Nephi’s father-in-law, Ishmael, was buried (1 Nephi 16:34). I had spent years documenting the name on old maps and writings back to within a few hundred years of Nephi’s day. Always the name was in the same location.
September 12, 2000.
Not long after arriving in Marib our group began visiting the spectacular remains of the past, beginning with the famous Great Dam. From there we went to the nearby temple of Barán where the altar had been recovered. For me, it was hard to reconcile the carefully excavated and restored complex with what I remembered. It was only a few minutes later that we realized that a stone altar stood a short distance away, one that looked the same as the altar in the catalog. Excitedly, several of us began to examine it. Around 26 inches high, a 3 inch high band of South Arabian script encircled it. To see an almost identical altar was something that exceeded our expectations, but the best was still to come.
We had hours of desert driving ahead of us to our overnight stop, so time was short. We hurriedly took some photographs and as we sent for a tape measure I asked our Yemeni guide if he could search the inscription for any mention of NiHM. Unbelievably, he quickly picked out the characters for the name, which I copied down. Stunned, we had our photographs taken with the altar and then it was time to leave. On board the bus we announced to the entire group what had happened and told them that they had probably just been a part of a significant event.
Such it proved to be. I returned to Yemen a few weeks later and secured permission to fully document the altar and the other structures. I found that around 20 altars had been recovered at the site and amazingly, amidst a cluster of damaged altars hidden behind a wall, sat a third identical altar. The donor of 3 altars with the same text was surely wealthy. Over following months one of the world’s leading authorities on early Arabia, Professor Kenneth Kitchen in England, provided us a more accurate translation of the inscription. Other scholars helped refine the dating and understand the context.”
His conclusion:
“For the first time, a unique Book of Mormon location had been plausibly located in the right location and period.”
In an article called ‘Newly found Altars from Nahom’, Mr. Aston makes this comment:
“In a single verse, 1 Nephi 16:34, Nephi tells us all that he wished us to know about the place called Nahom: “And it came to pass that Ishmael died, and was buried in the place which was called Nahom.” http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=10&num=2&id=255#_edn9
Mr. Aston makes these assumptions about the verse:
“From this and one other terse statement in the Book of Mormon we learn several facts about the location:
1. The wording makes it clear that Nahom was not named by Lehi’s party but was already known by that name to local people. Thus other people were already settled in proximity to the Lehite encampment.
2. Nephi’s Bountiful lay “nearly eastward” from Nahom (1 Nephi 17:1).
3. Nahom was, or at least included, a place of burial. Note that Nephi does not state that Ishmael died there, only that he was buried there, implying that it included an established burial place.”
To start, how can Aston, or anyone else definitely conclude that ‘Nahom’ was an established place known to local people? Where does he get that ‘other people were already settled in proximity to Lehi’s encampment? This is just pure speculation on Aston’s part. The site that Aston calls ‘Nahom’ was in fact a pagan temple “dedicated to the worship of the moon god Ilmaqah.” How does Aston conclude that this site included a place of burial, or was in fact named Nahom? (The closest burial sites are over 25 miles away according to Aston) And another thing to consider, would Jews go to a pagan temple site and bury one of their dead there?
To answer the above questions, we begin by observing that Aston concludes all of the above information based on one verse in the BOM, and an inscription found on one of the altars. The inscription reads:
1. Bi’athar son of Sawdum, son of Naw’um, the Nihmite, (NHM)
2. has dedi[cated] (to) Ilmaqah (the person) Fari’at. By
3. ‘Athtar, and by Ilmaqah, and by Dhat-Himyam, and by
4. Yada’-il, and by Ma’adi-karib
Aston is calling this area ‘Nahom’ based on a name inscribed on a donated Temple Altar! He makes this tenuous assumption: “While we cannot be certain, Bi’athar would have been unlikely to contribute to a temple that lay outside his tribal area.” Of course he cannot be certain about that! No one can! But he can be certain that this is direct evidence verifying the Book of Mormon?
Notice that the translation does not say, Nahomite, it says Nihmite. It is also important to note tha tNIHM is believed to be a tribal name, not a place name, and that the three consonants can have a variety of spellings when vowels are inserted. Aston himself states that references to NHM are “usually given as NiHM, NeHeM, NaHaM etc.” The Journal of Book of Mormon Studies reports that this can also be spelled “NaHM” (7:1, 1998, p. 7). For More Info see, http://mrm.org/nhm
As for names, this was posted by David Wright, Professor of Bible and Ancient Near East at Brandeis University, on ZLMB in 2002:
“A large number of BOM names and words have the suffixed element -om (Abinadom, Antiomno, Corom, Cumom, Curelom, Ezrom, Jacom, Jarom, Shiblom, Shilom [not necessarily Hebrew sh-l-m!; see the caution below], Sidom, Zeezrom). Those ending in -um may represent the same suffix: Antionum, Jeneum, Helorum, Mocum, which could include also the -antum and -ancum names: Antum, Coriantum, Irreantum, Moriancum, Moriantum, Ripliancum, Seantum, Teancum. (It is less clear that -em names/words Ethem, Gazelem, Sherem, Shelem, [+ ? Zara-HEM-la/nah?] and -am names/words Luram, Zeram, Seezoram, Zoram should be included.)
The large number of names or words with -om (-um) indicate that this element may not be part of the word stem or root in many cases, but a suffix separate or distinct from the root. Thus is it difficult to argue decisively, even from a traditionalist perspective, that Nahom derives from a Semitic root n-h-m (as in the Arabic place name Nehhem) or the root n-kh-m (connected with mourning). Just because there are Semitic roots with a final -m which can be correlated with Nahom does not mean that they are in fact to be correlated. The word stem or root may be Nah- with an -om suffix.”
“One could argue that -om names, which are found throughout the BOM (early Nephite, late Nephite, Jaredite), are an indication that a single mind conceived them all. Recall too that -e/antum (and related -ianton) type names appear in all three literary-cultural periods: Irreantum (early Nephite); Coriantum, Coriantumr, Coriantor (Jaredite); Corianton, Moriantum, Seantum (late Nephite). This is not what one expects from an ancient document which reflects discrete cultural-historical periods, but is explainable if Joseph Smith invented the names and wrote the BOM.”
In case any did not know, Nahom, (and it’s variation Nehem) was on many maps that were circulating about since the mid-1700’s, right up to the time Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. Could one of those have fallen in the hands of Smith? Mormon apologists flatly deny it, but it cannot be ruled out completely. What we have here, is all speculation, with no basis of fact to tie anything to the Book of Mormon. What should concern Mormons is the fact that not one shred of evidence has been found in the New World to support the historicity of the Book of Mormon: that there was a massive population of Jewish-Christian peoples that inhabited the Americas, who left no evidence of their existence at all.
Joseph Smith could easily have created the name Nahom as a variant of the Biblical names Naham (1 Chron. 4:19), Nehum (Ne. 7:7) and Nahum (Na. 1:1). It should be noted that in Young’s Literal Translation- 1. Chron. 4:19 Naham is spelled Nahom
That Mormons would pick up and champion an idea by a UFO crazy who has used it as a selling point for his “tours” shows their level of desperation.
” it is relatively easy to find seemingly meaningful patterns relating any two people or events, [or places for that matter] but that such patterns often do not stand up to rigorous scrutiny… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln%E2%80%93Kennedy_coincidences_urban_legend
To believe in the resurrection of Jesus takes FAITH. But the back story checks out. There was a Pilate, there was a Roman Empire, there was a Jerusalem, Nazareth, Egypt, etc. For the BOM there is NOTHING, except for the Biblical places Jo plagiarized. Therefore, we can have faith that there were actual witnesses that indeed did see the resurrection. 1800 years later, with all the reporting and much more modern means, the story of Jo Smith is so garbled, so contradictory that it can be rejected easily. There aren’t even any gold plates to check Smith’s story with. He gave them back to the treasure guardian. LOL. And where we can check Jo, as with the Book of Abraham, we find that he is a fraud as a translator.
Jasonrae
“You also claim “Joseph Smith admitted to a neighbour that the BofM was a fabrication.” Wow. This is a CLASSIC case of low-info. You have not one shred of proof for that statement.”
Yet more “low info” could you try changing the tune now & again? Anyway, I’m going to treat that with the classic Mormon response. I’ll ignore it completely.
Rick
“So it seems we have a problem, You believe the Bible is corrupt and the BoM is true, You claim the spirit told you this was true, I believe the Bible is true and the BoM is false, and I believe the spirit bore this out to me and God said so. So I guess since we are at a standstill on this point we need evidence”
We’re not quite at a standstill Rick, as you rightly say; the evidence is there in Gods word. Christ said “by their fruits you will know them” Matthew 7:15-16 & what are these fruits? We’re told in Galations 5:22-23
No man can stand in Gods presence without receiving a conviction of his own worthlessness, & by the same token a man cannot be indwelt by the spirit whilst exhibiting arrogance & a mocking demeanour, so I would say that reading Gods word leaves a question mark over Jasons testimony. Whatever testimony he may have it does not come from God & therefore all his beliefs can be called into question.
Jason
I tend to agree with Falcon on a point he raised, you are either reading papers from, or are part of, some apologetic organization, we all know about them, basically they talk, talk, talk, distort, quote out of context & produce absolutely nothing of any worth. It might interest you to know that taking scripture out of context is a clear sign of spiritual deception.
“Do you know what an incredible thing it would be for the entire world if YOU Mr. Rick B. actually had empirical physical hard evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? You would be famous the world over. Everyone would know your name. Every magazine every television show podcasts out the ying and on and on”
YOU DON’T HAVE IT.
Here we go again, once more you demand from others what you cannot or will not provide yourself. Why do you demand “hard” evidence from Rick & everyone else in here when it’s quite clear that you’re unable to provide any “hard” evidence of your own? Sheer hypocrisy as we’ve come to expect. Concerning that here’s a little parable for you to peruse at your leisure; that of the Pharisee & the tax collector (or publican as it’s sometimes translated) Luke 18:9-14 try reading it sometime Jason, then come back & answer this question. Which of the two men are you?
Here is a classic example of the ridiculousness of the Book of Mormon:
15 And I did teach my people to abuild buildings, and to bwork in all cmanner of wood, and of diron, and of copper, and of ebrass, and of steel, and of fgold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.
16 And I, Nephi, did abuild a btemple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of cSolomon save it were not built of so many dprecious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s etemple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of fSolomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.
Excuse all the cross references, you can’t find an lds version without half a dozen in each verse. But here “Nephi” says that he comes to America and it is full of all manner of precious ores IN ABUNDANCE.
Then he states that he builds a temple LIKE SOLOMON’s (after about 20 years of being in America) It took thousands of Israelites 7 years to build the temple of Solomon, but “Nephi” does it with What, a few dozen grandchildren? (For example Joseph F. Smith had about 100 children and grandchildren in 1906, but it took him 50 years to get that and he had 7 wives) ‘Nephi” says this temple was the same in construction as Solomons. This was a massive temple. And then comes the ridiculous part. “Nephi” says that he couldn’t put all the fancy stuff in the temple because they weren’t in abundance. But just a verse above this, it says that there was an abundance of all kinds of precious ores! Also, they could not “work in steel”, because there was no steel in America at that time. This is a FACT. The Book of Mormon is 19th century fiction.
Unlike the Bible, in which we now have evidence that Solomon’s Temple DID exist, there is nothing from the Book of Mormon. Nothing. Here is the evidence of Solomon’s Temple: http://www.bib-arch.org/news/news-ivory-pomegranate.asp
Jasonrae
Still waiting
As you are clearly a scholar & historian of outstanding ability we eagerly await your response to the findings of B.H. Roberts the LDS historian. I’ve given a brief outline below & a rather more detailed one in a previous post, which unsurprisingly you declined to comment on.
Roberts, a well respected historian was a committed Mormon & was employed by the LDS church for most of his adult life. Following years of research he concluded that the contents of the Book of Mormon were a figment of Joseph Smiths imagination. Perhaps you could tell us if Roberts had any “hard” or empirical evidence & if he did is that evidence now being concealed by the church? Or could it be simply that you know the history of the church better than B.H. Roberts? Please answer with a simple yes or no.
What in the world can be concluded about someone who submits multiple posts, including very specific information and contends that they have no sources for the information? At the same time the persons brags about their superior intelligence and their incredible skills at debate.
What’s that about visions of grandeur?
“A delusion of grandeur is the fixed, false belief that one possesses superior qualities such as genius, fame, omnipotence, or wealth.”
“People with a delusion of grandeur often have the conviction of having some great but unrecognized talent or insight. They may also believe they have made some important discovery that others don’t understand or appreciate.”
“Grandiose delusions may have religious content, such as the person believes he or she has received a special message from God or another deity.”
I don’t know. I suppose there are degrees of this from mild, moderate to severe.
Old Man,
I didn’t say anything about B.H. Roberts simply because EVERYONE knows he was playing ‘devil’s advocate’ – even Brodie understood that. Read his last book The Truth, the Way, the Life: An Elementary Treatise on Theology He maintained a healthy testimony of the BoM to his last days.
Again, the board is smarter now. Statements like that will no longer fly.
Falcon,
Attacking the messenger (me) instead of the message isn’t going to fly either. The board can see right through it. I post top-of-mind thoughts as they come without reference books or online articles. If it includes research from hundreds of individuals obtained over time then so be it. That’s kind of how people work – if I do a blatant copy/paste I’ll be sure to let you know.
My first post had an HTML typo and got garbled. Here it is again without the typo.
Grindael,
Really? After all we’ve gone over you still want to proceed with debunked methods? Everyone on this board now knows that statements like: “This is a FACT. The Book of Mormon is 19th century fiction” just will not fly anymore. They have learned over the past few days that statements like “You say I can’t prove the B0fM a fraud; I most certainly can & could do so in a few short sentences.” are simply uninformed and coming from low-info individuals and some *may* combine that with an axe to grind for whatever reason.
As well, their scholarship is improving and they are learning that you cannot ‘prove’ the BoM a fraud anymore than you can ‘prove’ that Christ resurrected from the dead or that He walked on water or fed 5000 with a few loaves and fishes.
We know as you said that “the back story checks out”. We KNOW that. How many times have I said that is what we call high probability evidence? I’m sure I’ve had to repeat it a hundred times now. But that’s OK – it’s finally sinking in.
So from now on you will need to post with a little more scholarship and responsibility and stop posting uninformed statements if you want to maintain any credibility and keep yourself relevent. The board is just too smart now.
Jason,
Your only the smartest guy in your own mind, I think your believing your own press, For someone that claims to be so smart, you are just like all your low info type typical Mormons buddies, Avoid or simply have no answers to most questions. I simply am not surprised and am not impressed either. But thats ok, I figured after you came here thats how you were going to be, so in a sense you fully lived up to my expectations.
Rick,
Let me repeat my most recent post for emphasis because I think this REALLY needs to sink in with you. I know it’s wasting a post but I really want this to get through. Maybe when you have a no-work salvation ethic you think you can be lazy in your scholarship as well. Good news is that’s changing around here:
Everyone on this board now knows that statements like: “This is a FACT. The Book of Mormon is 19th century fiction” just will not fly anymore. They have learned over the past few days that statements like “You say I can’t prove the B0fM a fraud; I most certainly can & could do so in a few short sentences.” are simply uninformed and coming from low-info individuals.
As well, their scholarship is improving and they are learning that you cannot ‘prove’ the BoM a fraud anymore than you can ‘prove’ that Christ resurrected from the dead or that He walked on water or fed 5000 with a few loaves and fishes.
We know as you said that “the back story checks out”. We KNOW that. How many times have I said that is what we call high probability evidence? I’m sure I’ve had to repeat it a hundred times now. But that’s OK – it’s finally sinking in.
So from now on you will need to post with a little more scholarship and responsibility and stop posting uninformed statements if you want to maintain any credibility and keep yourself relevant. The board is just too smart now.
Jason said
Jason, Your a joke, Plain and simple. First off I never said
So since I never said that, I guess your wrong, we dont ALL KNOW THIS. Maybe you should read better before you assume who said what.
Second of all, it’s not a matter of No work salvation, This shows that you mormon cannot agree and dont even have a clue what you guys believe, If you dont know what you believe then how can you know your right? By saying we have a no work salvation implies you must do works to be saved. Well Shem for one was just telling me works are not involved in salvation, but your implying they are. So if they are not involved, then you also believe in no works salvation, yet you tell me I’m wrong in believing that. But if you claim works are involved, Then how can I/we trust you to know what your talking about when you mormons cannot agree?
Then annoying as it may be, You refuse to discuss what your prophet taught with Aaron, I find this sad since your prophet clearly taught false doctrine, yet claimed it was truth. So How can you follow a false prophet, knowing he was a false prophet, yet claim your church is true? You wont address these issues because you cant handle the truth.
Jason, I also want to add that thier is evidence for the Bible, and ZERO EVIDENCE for the BoM.
The problem is, you know I’m right, we can give evidence for the Bible, The prophecy’s that have come to pass, The fact that we can go to Israel I have been their and am going back. Jews make the news all the Time, The Bible tells us that the little nation of Israel that is about the size of new jersey will be a cup of trembling for all nations. It make the news all the time with all the nations trying to wipe them off the map.
Yet when it come to the BoM we have no evidence that the reformed Egyptian language ever existed. Your prophets contradict themselves and denounce former teachings as false. Yet none of this matter to you, you refuse to address these issues or prove the language exists, Then say stuff like,
Maybe you should take your own advice and provide this evidence, instead you take evidence of and for the Bible, ignore it and act like we never gave any and say, their is no evidence for either side and then say, it’s all faith. It’s faith plus evidence for Christians, It blind faith with no evidence for LDS.
Rick,
I know you didn’t say that. It was a repeat post for emphasis that was originally addressed to the moderator who’s name starts with ‘G’. We all know who the moderator is, starts with a ‘G’ and ends with an ‘l’. Maybe he doesn’t filter you guys but he does me. So if I include his name in a post he throws it into moderation so that he can review it. To give him more time to respond maybe? No idea. But that’s why my repeat post made no sense – you never saw my original since it’s waiting in moderation land.
Anyway, you do have a no work salvation ethic. Say a prayer and you’re done. If however you want to reach the full measure of your potential (exaltation) God does require that you do certain things. Similar to if you want to become an American citizen – you have to DO certain things – there are requirements. Same with God’s highest kingdom.
Yes, you have high probability evidence for the Bible but you do not have 100% iron clad proof. Why is this not getting through? Maybe this will help:
Show me ‘proof’ right now that Jesus Christ walked on water. Proof outside of the written testimony in the bible. Actual physical hard iron clad evidence. What do you have for that? Don’t send book citations, testimony links from some online site or written word from anyone or anywhere. I want actual hard physical evidence.
I’ll be waiting.
Jasonrae
You think you’re the only one who gets moderated? I’m still waiting for one of my posts to go through the hoop so lets have a little less of the persecution complex
I see you’ve been running off to the apologists again & now we have to cope with even more bragging from he who cannot be wrong; Putting it at it’s most basic, you talk rubbish!
I beg you O mighty one, please allow me to show you something that may shed a little light.
In 1921 Young wrote to the then President of the church requesting a meeting with senior church leaders to discuss insurmountable difficulties with the Book of Mormon.
Roberts came away from that meeting a very disappointed man.
Here is an excerpt from the letter written by Elder Roberts to President Grant on January 9, 1922:
“I just wanted the brethren to know that I was quite disappointed in the results of our conference, but not withstanding I shall be most earnestly alert upon the subject of Book of Mormon difficulties, hoping for the development of new knowledge, and for new light to fall upon what has already been learned, to the vindication of what God has revealed in the Book of Mormon; but I cannot be other than painfully conscious of the fact that our means of defense, should we be vigorously attacked along the lines of [these] questions, are very inadequate.”
Would you like some more?
Forty four days before his death Roberts spoke to a close friend, Wesley P. Lloyd about his problems with the Book. The conversation is too long to lay out in full here so I’ll quote a few of the more relevant parts.
“Bro. Roberts could not criticize them for not being able to answer it or to assist him, but said that in a Church which claimed continuous revelation, a crisis had arisen where revelation was necessary.”
“It was mentioned at the meeting by Bro Roberts that there were other Book of Mormon problems that needed special attention. Richard R. Lyman spoke up and asked if they were things that would help our prestige and when Bro Roberts answered no, he said then why discuss them. This attitude was too much for the historically minded Roberts. There was however a committee appointed to study this problem, consisting of Bros Talmage, Ballard, Roberts, and one other Apostle. They met and looked vacantly at one and other, but none seemed to know what to do about it. Finally, Bro Roberts mentioned that he had at least attempted an answer and he had it in his drawer. That it was an answer that would satisfy people that didn’t think, but a very inadequate answer to a thinking man. They asked him to read it and after hearing it they adopted it by vote and said that was about the best they could do.”
“He swings to a psychological explanation of the Book of Mormon and shows that the plates were not objective but subjective with Joseph Smith. That his exceptional imagination qualified him psychologically for the experience which he had in presenting to the world the Book of Mormon and that the plates with the Urim and Thummim were not objective.”
& yet more
“His revelations become merely human productions. Morbid imagination, morbid expression of emotions (were) likely to find their way into the knowledge of Joseph Smith and influence his conceptions of spiritual things”
Roberts, according to Lloyd, concluded that Smith’s visions were “psychological” and that the gold plates, “were not objective” they didn’t really exist! They existed only on a “spiritual”, or subjective plane.
So there you have it, it goes without saying that Roberts & his friend were lying, after all, you’re the only one who cannot lie. Of course if he wasn’t lying then your arguments fall apart.
Ps. stop demanding “hard” evidence, if only half the evidence produced against you had been presented in a court you would be languishing in a cell. Everyone here is a little tired of you continuously demanding things that you cannot or will not give yourself, you’re nothing less than a hypocrite & I for one will have no more to do with you. Feel free to leave & tell all your teenage buddies about how you comprehensively defeated the combined might of the Christian world.
Sorry, Paragraph beginning, In 1921 young wrote, it should of course have read “In 1921 Roberts wrote”
One last thing while it’s on my mind, we should I suppose be grateful to jasonrae, he’s finally, by his arrogance, his mocking attitude, & his obvious disregard for truth, given us the proof to that which Christians have always claimed;
Mormons are not Christians
Old Man,
All of my posts go through except ones that include the name of Mr. G. the moderator. That is most certainly a targeted filter.
Anyway, the words were YOURS not mine. You made the claim of You say I can’t prove the B0fM a fraud; I most certainly can & could do so in a few short sentences. and then was not able to deliver. I gave you plenty of time to either drop the proof or back off of the statement.
Why hang your hat on anything from B.H. Roberts? If you want to believe a 2nd hand source “Wesley P. Lloyd” then that is your business. I’m sure we can find a BILLION people that think the BoM is an absolute fraud and a con job by Joseph Smith. And that matters why?
When it comes to a spiritual witness of truth we all stand independent of anyone else. My personal witness of Restoration events has zero to do with any other member of the church regardless of position or calling. If a modern-day apostle or even President Thomas S. Monson denounced the BoM and proclaimed it a fraud at conference next month it would shock the world but not change the truth. You guys would have a field day but it would still be meaningless. For those with a spiritual testimony of the BoM and other key restoration events it would be like any other uneventful day. It just wouldn’t mean a thing.
So let’s say for sake of argument B.H. Roberts actually denounced the BoM and left the church – where does that get you in your loudly proclaimed (but not completed) quest to prove the BoM a fraud in just a few short sentences? It gets you exactly nowhere.
“Stop demanding hard evidence”
Why? That’s what you guys claim to actually have. I’ve tried to be clear that you have high probability evidence ONLY. The rest is faith.
everyone here is a little tired of you continuously demanding things that you cannot or will not give yourself
I posted plenty of high probability evidence for the authenticity of the BoM – and that’s just a start. You can go back and read my posts on the Arabian journey, NHM, Khor Kharfot as Bountiful etc. Those posts show pretty clearly that whoever wrote First Nephi had to have BOOTS ON THE GROUND in the actual location. It doesn’t ‘prove’ the BoM true but it certainly gives us high probability evidence which is no more than you have for the bible.
I’m blown away by how often I have to repeat this.
Jason,
I also will say and agree, stop crying and claiming in a subtle way persecution over having stuff moderated. I have had more stuff throw in what we call Mod Jail than I can remember, I have also seen other Christians on this blog complain that their stuff went in Mod jail also. It can at times get annoying since we write something it ends up in Mod jail, 5 people come along and reply, everything they say is posted first try, then our stuff finally makes it out and is “Lost” because of all the news posts.
Now like I said before, and will use your example, How many times must I say this before you get it and understand? I was not around when Jesus walked on water or made water into wine. Yet we have evidence that it happened through Eye witness accounts. But if you seriously want to discount them, then as I said before, we might as well throw out all history books, set people in jail free since the witnesses cannot be used, lets just remove the history channel from TV and then take everything you mention and discount it since you were not alive when JS and BY were alive and since you can only assume they are honest, you cannot prove JS had a first vision, you must just assume it happened.
Then add to that, you use a subtle from of intimidation, you say
So if people ask questions or even try and ask them, but it does not live up to your standards, Then you simply refuse to answer the question while implying the person that asked it sound stupid. So I’m not impressed by how you avoid questions while claiming to be so smart.
You cannot defended your false prophets teachings, you the best thing to do is avoid the question all together and just call us names.
Jason said
Ok Jason, Show me in the Bible where it says we will be able to exalt ourselves and be like God? Show me the verses that clearly state, we must do works to exalt ourselves. Then while your at it, explain how it is Satan tried to exalt himself above God and was cast out, why could he not do it, but we can?
Then explain why the Bible says, ALL who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved, yet no mention of works needing to be done. Then explain how God can say, I know of No Other Gods, their are NONE before me, and None will be after me. But yet according to you we can and will be gods some day.
Jason,
Before I forget, After you explain and show me from Scripture where these things are taught, please provide evidence and explain to me how it is that Mormons believe that the Bible is not translated correctly, and how do you know the verses you use to support your views are correct? How do you know your not using verses that were translated incorrectly and How can I trust you to know your getting your facts correct and telling me accurate information. Just because you claim to be smart does not make it true, any more than I can claim to be the Mormon president and that makes it true.
So Jason,
You’re doing all of this from memory without consulting any sources? Man I guess you are a genius. Would you please share with us a little about your life? With an intellect like yours you must be holding a high position within the LDS church and be at the highest levels of some profession. Genius is rare so I’m impressed if I run across it. So please fill us in.
Actually as far as attacking the messenger, it’s a good idea to challenge people who make claims like you have. You have that Mormon persecution complex down pat if you think you’re being attacked. You present yourself in a particular manner so don’t be surprised if I, or the others here, call you to task or make personal observations.
BTW, I’ve been moderated here on this blog most recently a couple of weeks ago.
jasonrae
I said I would have nothing more to do with you & I stand by that, I will not argue with a man who steadfastly refuses to accept the evidence of his senses, i.e. the word you use quite a lot, empirical.
I have proved my case & your bluster tells me I am right. So, thank you for that, I can happily leave others to carry on knocking ever larger holes in your wall.
By the way, simply for the sake of information & nothing more, the second hand source you attempt to dismiss was Chair of the Department of Philosophy at Brigham Young University, a committed Mormon & close friend of Roberts.
“I posted plenty of high probability evidence for the authenticity of the BoM”
Perhaps you did so why ask everyone else for “hard” evidence?
Finis.
Rick B
“Yet we have evidence that it happened through Eye witness accounts. But if you seriously want to discount them, then as I said before, we might as well throw out all history books, set people in jail free since the witnesses cannot be used”
You are 100% right, unfortunately eyewitness accounts are not admissible as evidence in the Mormon world where feelings, or in Mormonspeak, “testimony” is being challenged. But not to worry, Jason has slowly been digging himself into a hole that will very soon collapse & bury him & his false doctrines completely.
Rick,
“I was not around when Jesus walked on water or made water into wine. Yet we have evidence that it happened through Eye witness accounts.”
Again, what you cite is NOT evidence. I literally just said prayer asking God to help me get this across to you and here’s what came into my mind:
Let’s say you lived at the time of Christ and you were in the boat and saw with your own eyes Jesus Christ walk on water. Then you are called into a court as a witness. You stand and tell the entire court that you saw Christ walk on water. They would STILL ask you for evidence. Show us the proof. Even as an eyewitness you would have no proof. No hard evidence you can give them outside of your testimony. Even if you had it on video someone could claim that you doctored the film or that it’s CGI.
See the point? YOU would know. But others would have no real reason to believe your words. You could be lying, drunk, on opium or have any other motivation for making the claim – who knows what – could be a thousand things. If someone were to belive you they would simply accept your word on faith.
All of the miracles of Jesus including the resurrection, the very things that interest us most about the bible and the life of Christ are ALL accepted on faith and spiritual witness. Sure, there’s plenty of ‘evidence’ to prove the historical veracity of the bible but not the miraculous events.
That’s been my sole point all along.
I 100% agree with you that I cannot hand you physical evidence to prove the First Vision. Or that Joseph met with Moroni for 4 years until he got the plates. I can’t give you ANY physical evidence that he translated them by the gift and power of God. I’ve never claimed I can.
But what I DO claim and I claim it emphatically, is that I have a spiritual witness that the BoM is from God AND that high probability evidence is coming to light to bolster that witness, ie it lends support and strength to that witness. I have never said anything more than that. So you can have fairth and then once you have a spiritual witness your faith will morph to knowledge. A true spiritual witness is the most powerful knowledge you can have – more powerful then the historical ‘evidence’ you cite.
The Evs like to mock the LDS for their spiritual witness testimonies but I would tread very carefully there.
~
I’ll be glad to answer your questions when you do two small things:
1. Admit that you do not have any hard physical evidence of the miracles of Christ including the atonement and resurrection.
2. Read my posts on the Lehi journey, NHM, Nahom burial ground, the eastward turn, Khor Kharfot (Bountiful) etc and explain how 23 year old Joseph got access to information that no one else alive in 1829 had access to.
~
Falcon, I don’t have a persecution complex – I just made a point that I had no idea why posts addressed to Mr. G would get filtered while others got through. I don’t really care, it just seemed like an odd filter.
Follow Posters:
There’s something that I know after the years I’ve been on MC and that is when a Mormon begins to scream “PERSECUTION”, then I know they are out of bullets. They’re in a corner and they are trapped. So they try to push back by playing the persecution card.
Secondly, when someone won’t give their sources, it’s pretty easy to figure out why. When sources are put out there, suddenly the person’s claim to be really smart gets exposed. The sources can be examined. I’ve got a pretty good idea of where our Mormon friend Jason is getting his information and it has been judged to be bogus and a case of Mormon home cooking.
Our friend has a grandiose view of himself and I learned long ago not to argue with folks like this.
The filter system is random. I don’t know why it does it. But I’m not on the computer 24/7 and only just got on today because I was out at church all day. All comments are now approved, so chill out Jason. I’ll get to your comments when I have time. And some of your comments that were not addressed to me got held up, but I’m usually on more than I was today. So stop with the baseless speculation.
Amen, Brother.
For example, here is an email from Old Man to me:
8:52 AM (10 hours ago)
to me
Hi Johnny,
Just wondering why my posting was removed, I submitted it yesterday evening around 8 pm (Uk time) shortly before your final post of the day, this morning it was still there awaiting moderation. When I checked again a few minutes ago it had disappeared, presumably it wasn’t acceptable although I have no idea why.
If it was removed could you explain the reasoning behind the decision?
Best regards,
(old man)
Jason,
You first said,
Where are the “thousand other things coming to light” that can prove the BOM true. You now say, “high probability evidence” but have only named some sites in Arabia that are so doubtful that they are only “high probability” or wishful thinking in the minds of Mormon Apologists and the weak minded.
As for FACTS. It is a FACT that there is absolutely no evidence of two ancient battles fought at the hill Cumorah involving millions of people using steel swords, chariots, and a plethora of other anachronisms that Jo Smith put into the BOM.
And how could Nephi have built a temple “like unto Solomon’s” within 25 years or so of landing in America? Explain the BOM population growth that it describes. The FACT is, to achieve what the BOM states is impossible. Therefore it is a FACT that the BOM is a fraud.
And the reason I stated what I did about the back story is because, as you repeated again,
is a Straw Man. We are not talking about miracles here, but archaeological evidence. There is absolutely ZERO “high probability” evidence for the BOM, only SPECULATION of Mormons and coincidence, based on Jo Smith having a name he could use from an available map.
Questioning a “spiritual witness” or a “testimony” based on how it is achieved is not mocking it. Let’s get that clear. If someone claims to get a “spiritual witness” of a self proclaimed “prophet” that taught that his God was an ithyphallic fertility God, (a direct contradiction of the Bible) I will indeed question that “spiritual witness”, and their claims to Christianity.
There were maps with the name Nahom on them in Arabia in the area of NHM since the 1700’s. And putting a vague “we went east” and there being an Oasis to the east on the shore is simple coincidence. Anyone can take vagueness and make something out of it years later. It’s done all the time, like with the prophecies of Nostradamus. People still believe that crap, and he’s as vague as they come.
Trying to say that conditions were right, that there was the right amount and quality of wood for ships (which is doubtful) or that there was ore for “Nephi” to smelt is not “high probability evidence”, it is low-probability speculation that even Mormon Professors do not agree on. We only have the word of the UFO “expert” about the wood. For me, anything he says is highly doubtful. I’m sure he’s using the same process to prove the BOM as he is using to prove UFO abductions. Fantasy.
LOL 🙂 This from a guy who has posted NOTHING but his own arrogant speculation. Where is your detailed PROOF? The “thousands” you can name but won’t because you can’t. I know you’re high intelligence and “smart” and all, but you misspelled relevant. And that is easy to fix with a spell checker. No “intelligence” required. And did you miss this,
To answer the above questions, we begin by observing that Aston concludes all of the above information based on one verse in the BOM, and an inscription found on one of the altars. The inscription reads:
1. Bi’athar son of Sawdum, son of Naw’um, the Nihmite, (NHM)
2. has dedi[cated] (to) Ilmaqah (the person) Fari’at. By
3. ‘Athtar, and by Ilmaqah, and by Dhat-Himyam, and by
4. Yada’-il, and by Ma’adi-karib
Aston is calling this area ‘Nahom’ based on a name inscribed on a donated Temple Altar! He makes this tenuous assumption: “While we cannot be certain, Bi’athar would have been unlikely to contribute to a temple that lay outside his tribal area.” Of course he cannot be certain about that! No one can! But he can be certain that this is direct evidence verifying the Book of Mormon?
Notice that the translation does not say, Nahomite, it says Nihmite. It is also important to note tha tNIHM is believed to be a tribal name, not a place name, and that the three consonants can have a variety of spellings when vowels are inserted. Aston himself states that references to NHM are “usually given as NiHM, NeHeM, NaHaM etc.” The Journal of Book of Mormon Studies reports that this can also be spelled “NaHM” (7:1, 1998, p. 7). For More Info see, http://mrm.org/nhm
Please explain and rebut (if you can).