Want to do a well-rounded engagement of Mormonism? Study and quote:
- General Conference talks
- “Correlated” priesthood and relief society manuals
- Institute and seminary manuals (what the teens and college students are being taught)
This is what makes Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson so awesome — they work hard to keep abreast of LDS literature, with a special focus on the manuals that are actually being used to teach Mormons.
And then, if possible:
- 19th century LDS scripture
- Popular literature found at Deseret Book, etc.
- Works of LDS neo-orthodoxy (generally BYU professors)
- “Mormon Doctrine”, by Bruce McConkie
- Works of James Talmage (pivotal theological figure of the “reconstruction era” of Mormon history)
- Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought
It also helps to be able to summarize the historical development of a particular doctrine (using the term loosely here). A really helpful work on this is This Is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology, by Charles Harrell. Quoting from the Journal of Discourses (essentially the 19th century “Conference Reports”!) also is relevant when surveying historical LDS teachings.
A sloppy countercultist will overly depend on 19th century quotes of brazen leaders like Brigham Young and Orson Pratt. Conversely, a quasi-ecumenical liberal will tend to only quote from 19th century Mormon scripture and the works of neo-orthodox BYU professors.
I think this goes under the heading of “Can anyone figure out what Mormons believe?” It could also be titled, “Does anyone know what Mormonism teaches?” Or how about, “What is Mormonism?”
First of all we have to recognize that there is a lot of different Mormonism floating around out there. For some reason, the Salt Lake City bunch seem to think that they’re the one true church that can define what Mormonism is regarding its truths and doctrine. Other sects of Mormonism would disagree saying that they have the definitive one true restored gospel of Mormonism.
I always get a kick out of Mormons for jumping all over the “creeds” of Christianity contending that a bunch of men sat down and decided what the basics of the faith are. Mormonism of course is much better in their view because their prophets hear directly from the Mormon god. We are right to point out that the Mormon god is quite confused because he changes his mind about every generation and a-half.
But we have Mormons who come on here insisting that they know exactly what Mormon doctrine is, at least for today.
One more thing, Mormons believe that their god is continually evolving so I guess that’s why Brigham Young Mormonism, for example, is so much different from that of today.
Mormons don’t like it when Christians start sifting through their stuff and coming to conclusions regarding Mormon doctrine and practice.
One of the Mormon megaphone mantras is “If you want to know about Mormonism, ask a Mormon.” I guess reading about it and connecting the dots can only be accurately accomplished if someone is drinking Mormon Kool-Aid while doing it.
The truth of the matter is that Mormons don’t know all that much about their own history and the development of their belief system. This is obviously not related so much to intelligence as curiosity.
I think of all the very intelligent Mormons who have written and spoken about their discoveries and journey out of Mormonism. One that comes to mind is Lyndon Lamborn. Unfortunately, it seems that Lyndon’s search led him to become a sort of, kind of deist, maybe. But he’s so typical in terms of uncovering information that was there all of the time but hidden behind his own blind-spot of contentment.
From:
http://blogs.evtrib.com/spirituallife/2011/07/04/lds-excommunication-of-lyndon-lamborn-revisited/
“Standing for Something More” is a bold, courageous and compelling book. It chronicles the awakening of a once-earnest and devout Mormon who had never before acted on the inconsistencies and troubling aspects of the history and teachings of the 13 million worldwide church founded in 1830 by Joseph Smith Jr. in New York State. He tells in detail how he grew up in an obedient Mormon family with seven children. Lamborn went on a two-year Mormon mission to Belgium, returned to get his two university degrees, married and had three children, and took on the demanding church assignments for decades including teaching priesthood classes. He adhered to the 10 percent tithing to the church and said the church received more than $100,000 in giving by his family. He was fully part of the subculture that Mormons live in, much of it apart from non-believers.
When Lamborn read Jon Krakauer’s book, “Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith,” it triggered more personal research. A work colleague asked him about the polygamous wives of Joseph Smith, some 33 by one account. Lamborn couldn’t answer her, but what he found in his research incensed him — that the Saints were woefully uninformed about the true history of the church and that information is manipulated to keep members in the dark.”
Andy Watson use to carry around this big messenger bag stocked with information direct from Mormon sources. When he’d be engaging a Mormon in a discussion he’d pull out the book or periodical with the Mormon “stamp” on it and show them first hand from the LDS church confirmation of what he was saying.
The Mormon would be any where from shocked to confused. The information just couldn’t be saying what it was clearly saying. It was always just a total dumbfounded response, denial or deer-in-the-headlights.
I remember that quote from the BYU professor. He said, “In Mormonism you can believe whatever you want. You just can’t teach it.” I guess that helps when things just can’t be mentally “correlated”.
Mormonism as we know it is pretty much a “think piece” or like the opinion section of a newspaper. We are in constant debate with Mormons over what “counts” and what “doesn’t count” within the religion.
The Journal of Discourse is all pretty much relegated to the “doesn’t count” column along with Bruce McConkie’s book “Mormon Doctrine”.
This is what happens when a group of people depend on someone who is billed as a prophet for their information regarding what a supreme being is thinking at any particular given time.
Modern day Mormons have a different religion than that which was promoted at various times of the religion’s history. Consistency is not a main feature of Mormonism. In fact, consistency is not all that valued by Mormons. What is valued is emerging thought and change under the heading of “continuous” revelation. That’s what makes it all exciting to the true believers.
So what to do with all the stuff that has an expired due or use by date? Simply say it doesn’t count now that it isn’t any longer fresh.
Well Said Falcon. Another title could be “Mormon Systematic Theology”…. I’d Buy that book. Although i think it would lead to more questions…
Just for fun I took a look at something totally out of the realm of Mormonism to compare the desires of Mormons for the myth to be true and that of the faith of environmentalists in their theology.
One such BoM type tome is “Silent Spring” which was written by Rachel Carson. This is the Bible for folks who buy into the full theology and is looked upon as a watershed work for the environmental movement. The problem is it’s all false; the result of wishful thinking rather than solid, reliable data.
Dr. J. Gordon Edwards writes:
……..I worked as biological coordinator for the National Park Service in Glacier National Park. I eagerly read the condensed version of Silent Spring in the New Yorker magazine and bought a copy of the book as soon as I could find it in the stores. As I read the first several chapters I noticed many statements that I realized were false; however, one can overlook such things when they are produced by one’s cohorts, and I did just that.
As I neared the middle of the book, the feeling grew in my mind that Rachel Carson was really playing loose with the facts and was also deliberately wording many sentences in such a way as to make them imply certain things without actually saying them. She was carefully omitting everything that failed to support her thesis that pesticides were bad, that industry was bad, and that any scientists who did not support her views were bad.
I next looked up some of the references that Carson cited and quickly found that they did not support her contentions about the harm caused by pesticides. When leading scientists began to publish harsh criticisms of her methods and her allegations, it slowly dawned on me that Rachel Carson was not interested in the truth about those topics, and that I really was being duped, along with millions of other Americans.
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=151596.0
Now the reason I’m including this here is that it reminds me of Bill and Eric spending countless hours combing through the writings of Mormon authorities and presenting their findings regarding (Mormonism); to provide a counter-balance to what Mormons are getting from their leadership.
The problem is that Mormons don’t want their bubble to burst. They like their belief system regardless of what the evidence says.
I saw a Covair heading for a classic car show the other day and was explaining to my twenty-something daughter how that automobile got banned because it was said, in the book of the same title, “Unsafe At Any Speed”. It turned out that the Corvair’s safety record was no better or worse than other cars.
But their were people that wanted that narrative to be true so it became true and that was the end of the Corvair.
Mormons are sacrificing a true relationship with Jesus Christ because they have been sold a bill of goods about Christianity. That’s one of the things that blocks Mormons from even questioning the premise of the “restored” gospel.
Thankfully there are people who will spend the time, money and effort to get the truth out and hopefully bring Mormons into a lasting relationship with the Living God.
The Bible talks about people who are willing to discard the truth for a lie.
Falcon , your assessment of Mormonism to be the product of men is correct.These men felt
they were hearing from God to fix what they felt was the ultimate problem in the world —-no
salvation available to mankind because a universal/complete apostasy from the religion of Jesus
had supposedly occurred 1700 years earlier ! So their claim that the same gospel of salvation that
Paul preached , that the same church that Jesus had established thru His apostles , and that the
same appointment Jesus rendered to His apostles to be His teachers in N.T. times , had to be
restored . As you rightly note , we can evaluate this claim of theirs. This is crucial because of
Jesus’ warning to beware of men in the latter days who would arise and mimic the claims of those
who were directed by Him long ago —Matt 24:11 .
When we evaluate the track record of what Mormon leaders preached to their flock since their
alleged appointment by Jesus in 1830 to teach His truths , we see a pattern , an unstable one ,
a behavior of vacillation , thus rendering them unreliable as trustworthy guides in important
spiritual truths . These men have built a massive religious organization that can provide a
great atmosphere of moral teaching and lifestyle . But receiving salvation (eternal life) is more
than living amoral lifestyle emulating Jesus , it is embracing the truth about God and what His
word has revealed are the requirements to receive a right relationship with Him resulting in
living with Him in heaven and experiencing the fullness of blessings therein —Jn 17:3 ; Rom 1:16,
and in this respect Mormon leaders have proven to be not trustworthy guides . The very same
type of behavior that these men have accused others of they have succumbed to themselves
and the following claim underscores this fact :
….It is because men deny the Holy Ghost , who giveth utterance , and preach instead their own
ideas of what the scriptures mean , that there are so many false and vain notions in so-called
christendom … [ McConkie , “A New Witness for the Articles of Faith “, p. 324 ].
Today, we have the benefit and blessing of possessing God’s Word in order to anchor our
beliefs about God and salvation to —-the Bible is the bed rock of Christianity and as such
we can study it to learn about our Creator and a lifestyle that glorifies Him . It also provides
the safety from those men who would come in these latter days mimicking the claims of Jesus’
apostles in order to introduce their teachings to unsuspecting sincere people .
Wow. Everyone seems pretty sure of themselves on here, But do you even know where your own religion comes from ? or is your knowledge only about what Mormons “believe”
“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.” – Amos 8:11-12
great apostasy
No? what of this then?
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3
The Bible clearly states that there was to be a falling away. Then comes the Restoration….
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” – Acts 3:19, 21
“That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:” – Ephesians 1:10
I would like to know how you interpret these scriptures. They support that The Church that was established By Christ, would one day need to be restored . How else do you explain the 300+ christian religions claiming to be true?
What is a Mormon “minimalist”?
I would say it’s someone who doesn’t know much about Mormonism. On the other hand we could say that a Mormon minimalist is someone who believes the minimum, does the minimum and it results in them gaining whatever benefit they think there is by being in the sect. Where Mormonism dominates the culture, there can be some social and financial benefits to being in the sect.
It’s striking that the Apostle Paul said that whatever he had gained in his previous life as a Jewish Pharisee he counted as rubbish compared to knowing Christ Jesus as His Lord. What is of interesting to me are the number of Mormons who aren’t even aware that Mormonism acknowledges a different God and certainly a different Jesus. Andy Watson told me about a guy he knew who said he knew nothing about this different god until the day before he was to “go through the temple”. His bishop and an elder came over to his house and dropped the bomb on him. He didn’t stay Mormon very long.
Thankfully there are people who go to all of the nooks and crannies of Mormonism and ferret out the information that gives the full picture of the Mormon religion. But actually a person doesn’t need to know all that much to be able to see what a farce and con the religion is.
Jarron21
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The Bible clearly states that there was to be a falling away. Then comes the Restoration….”
I don’t see anything in that quote about a restoration; Paul is talking about a rebellion against God which would reveal the ‘man of lawlessness’ if you wish to use that verse in support of the LDS ‘total apostasy’ theory which they say occurred shortly after the death of the Apostles then please tell us who that man of sin might be, after all he should have been revealed by now. Perhaps Paul is talking about Joseph Smiths arrival on the scene & is calling him the son of perdition.
“I would like to know how you interpret these scriptures. They support that The Church that was established By Christ, would one day need to be restored . How else do you explain the 300+ christian religions claiming to be true?”
I’m sure that someone in here will explain those verses to you but before they do I would like to know how you interpret them to mean the Church would one day need to be restored. It takes a pretty good imagination & a very strange understanding of scripture to read restoration into them.
@Falcon
You seem like a very smart person. I can asure you that living in Texas and being Mormon do not lead me to any sort of social or finacial gain. My approach here was probably not the best way to go about things. Maybe instead of being confrontational I can take this oppurtunity to learn a few things.
Jarron21,
I took no offense. I didn’t even notice anything offensive. I’ve been doing this for nearly five years and have weathered much worse.
Anyway, I’m glad you showed up here; because it just shows how totally ignorant I am despite being at least moderately informed about the Bible and early Church history.
So what sect of Mormonism should I join? In-other-words, which one has the true restoration?
Would it surprise you that there are at least seventy different sects of Mormonism all with a prophet and all who have the true message? In fact, most of these (sects) would contend that there has been a great apostasy in Mormonism.
The first apostasy occurred when Joseph Smith trashed his original Book of Commandments and made significant changes to create the Journal of Discourses. Another apostasy took place when polygamy was sort of done away with. So today the FLDS in all it’s variations sees the Utah sect as a bunch of apostates. The Community of Christ is much different than either of these two sects as is the Temple Lot group.
Finally, I can’t find any Mormonism in the first century primitive Christian church. I can’t find it in the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, in the traditions of the Church and not even with the various heretics. So absent some clear evidence, I’d have to conclude that Joseph Smith made it up……Mormonism that is.
So let’s face it, the entire Mormons’ testimony is built on the feeling they get that means to them confirmation that what they believe is true. Since all sects of Mormonism believes this about their group, and since most religions believe the same, it would be a good idea to investigate the specific claims looking for some sort of evidence to support the premise.
J/21
OOPS, I got my brain scrambled there. I meant to write “Doctrine & Covenants” not Journal of Discourses.
Consider the following:
From the earliest days of the restoration of the “fullness of the gospel” (1 Nephi 10:14, Utah Book of Mormon), we have told the world that this included a restoration of divine priesthood authority, and by which the true Church of Christ would be restored as in the time of Christ and the ancient apostles. This was, in fact, the intent of God as revealed in the Book of Commandments 4:5, in March 1829:
“And thus if the people of this generation harden not their hearts, I will work a reformation among them, and I will put down all lyings, and deceivings, and priestcrafts…and I will establish my church, like unto the church which was taught by my disciples in the days of old.”
This is deleted from all books of Doctrine and Covenants, which was first published in 1835, two years after publication of the Book of Commandments! By this time, the church’s name was changed, which church was organized according to, or, “by the will and commandments of God”, and into this same section (Utah D&C 20; RLDS D&C 17) was introduced a first presidency, high priest, etc. The Book of Commandments, chapter 24 (this same revelation), does not contain these offices. Many changes were made in the revelations to support offices not originally provided for, and these were introduced by men-not God! All comparison to the divine pattern should be with the New Testament of the Bible and with the Book of Mormon after Christ had come to the American continent. The same is true of doctrinal points.
Oh Boy! That doesn’t sound good. Finally:
The Church of Christ is a remnant of the original church of 1830, being neither disorganized nor reorganized. Its priesthood may be traced back, intact, to Joseph Smith and the angel. Early Church innovations were accepted for a time, but we later repudiated them, reverting to the scriptural pattern in organization and doctrine. As the Bible and Book of Mormon were said to contain the fullness of the gospel, a fullness will admit of no new doctrine nor priesthood office. See Doc. and Cov., Utah ed. 42:12, 59: RLDS ed. 42:5, 16.
This site provides a handy dandy chart comparing three sects of Mormonism. The FLDS is not included but it wouldn’t be too difficult to figure out where they come down on these things.
http://www.bible.ca/mor-church-of-christ-temple-lot-mormons-1830.htm
Notice what the chart presents regarding polygamy, God was a man, men will become gods and the beliefs of the various sects.
Interestingly enough, the Utah sect gets a big affirmative on all three where as the other two sects are a big negative. The FLDS would be gung-ho on polygamy as well as the other two points. I believe that they don’t believe in blacks in the priesthood and would affirm Adam-god.
Man, there is so much confusion in Mormonism.
You know it’s a good thing that every once in a while, probably about once a month, another Mormons prophet appears to set everything right after this great Mormon apostasy has set the people in great confusion.
One of the problems in assuming some “great and total apostasy”, or that Christ would withdraw himself and His Holy Spirit from the world (which he had only just revealed himself to), is taking isolated verses out of their context. For clarity concerning this, I would have you read the entire chapter in 2nd Thessolonians:
First, Paul states that he is speaking about the 2nd Coming. He tells the saints not to believe that the “day of the Lord” had already come.
Second, Paul then states that the 2nd Coming would not come until “the rebellion occurs” and “the man of lawlessness is revealed”, the man “doomed to destruction” or the “man of sin” is revealed.
Third, Paul tells us what this man would do, and states that he would “oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”
Fourth, Paul states that he had spoken about this already and that Christ was “holding himself back” so that the Lawless Man would “be revealed at the proper time.”
These verses do not speak of some “great and total apostasy”, they speak of an event that will happen some time before Christ returns.
Fifthly, Paul then states that “the secret power of lawlessness is already at work”, and that Christ will continue to “hold back” His coming until the Lawless Man is “taken out of the way”, and will “overthrow him” by the splendour of His coming.
Has this happened yet? No. This man will obviously come shortly before Christ returns, and he must set himself up in the Temple of God (which does not yet exist) and proclaim himself to be God.
Sixthly, Paul then states that the coming of the Lawless Man “will be in accordance to how Satan works,” which is to use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that “serve the lie”, to deceive them who are “already perishing”. Paul then states that these people “perish” because they “refuse to love the truth AND BE SAVED.”
No apostasy here. Only Satan deceiving people.
Seventhly, Paul then states that God “will send them” (those who refuse to be saved) a “powerful delusion” because they believe the lies and will condemn themselves.
Does this mean everyone? By no means, and Paul explains this in Romans 11:1-10:
God will never reject His people, and the Gentiles grafted in under the covenant are His people. Paul states “at the present time, there is a remnant chosen by grace.” That would be those who follow Christ, his elect. Those who did not follow Christ were given “a spirit of stupor” or as he explained to the Thessalonians “a strong delusion” because of their wickedness.
Eightly, Paul states that those he was writing to were “the firstfruits” to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.” He then tells them to “stand firm and hold fast” to “the teachings we have passed on to you, WHETHER BY WORD OF MOUTH OR BY LETTER”.
This, we have done. We have compiled those things in the New Testament, and the message of the truth is still there that leads to the sanctifying work of the Spirit to those that BELIVE THE TRUTH, the truth in the letters and oral traditions handed down, WHICH WE STILL HAVE.
Then we have another verse taken out of context by those who claim “total and complete apostasy”, the one found in Acts 3:17-26. Here it is in its full context:
Firstly, Peter states to his “fellow Israelites” that he knows that they acted in ignorance (those that crucified Christ), and states that even though they did, this was how “God fulfilled what he had FORETOLD THROUGH ALL THE PROPHETS,” saying that the MESSIAH WOULD SUFFER.
Secondly, Peter then says, (referring to what those Prophets said about Christ): “Repent … and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, THAT THE TIMES OF REFRESHING MAY COME FROM THE LORD, AND THAT HE MAY SEND THE MESSIAH, WHO HAD BEEN APPOINTED FOR YOU – EVEN JESUS.
This is not about Jo Smith or any “restoration” AFTER CHRIST. It is Peter speaking about THE FIRST COMING OF THE SUFFERING MESSIAH. Read the rest of it, it speaks of Moses telling the people about CHRIST’s FIRST COMING. When read in context, anyone can see this has nothing to do with some “restoration” 2000 years after Christ’s FIRST coming. This is Peter speaking to the Israelites and quoting scripture about the FIRST COMING of Jesus.
Another out of context rendering takes place with Ephesians 1:10. Here it is in context:
The “times of refreshing” was when Christ came THE FIRST TIME. That was when Christ, “gathered together in one all things”. Paul clarifies this in Galatians:
Jo Smith has usurped the role of Christ and took it upon himself:
That is why Christ himself said,
It is easy to explain the different branches of Christianity, when you understand that man is (as Paul states) sanctified by the Spirit when he believes the truth, the truth in the gospels and the letters of the Apostles.
Jo Smith’s “dispensation of the fullness of times” is a strange conglomeration of the New and Old Covenants, which was already fulfilled in Christ. The forced “regulations”, the need for a “priesthood” as an intercessor, and “prophets” who speak for Christ instead of the Holy Spirit speaking directly to all, are all inventions by Jo to aggrandize himself, (and any who uphold such notions) and take the place of what Jesus established in the true dispensation of the fullness of times that there is ONE mediator between God and Man, and that is Jesus.
Jarron21, I think the reason we are here is that we tend to take seriously Jesus’ warning about
being aware of false prophets arising in the latter days —Matt 24:11— and therefore seek to
warn the Mormon people to consider the importance to test their prophets . I assure you that
the Mormon people are not the problem , the vast majority are a good and decent people . But
good people can be deceived by false prophets , and remember that not all false prophets are
immoral , some can be polite, well dressed, and preach about living morally right . I hope you
grasp that fact . Now concerning what you called “great apostasy” , this doctrine of Mormonism
has been created to prove the need for their prophets entrance into the world with their
particular gospel . Actually , Mormons have taught that there was a complete/universal
apostasy from the Christian religion, from the Gospel that Jesus’ apostles taught 2ooo years
ago , and that Christianity “sickened and died” . The Bible does teach that a apostasy would
happen , however what I’ve just mentioned above did not take place at all but is only a cleverly
crafted doctrine by Mormon authorities . There has always been true christians , their number
might have dwindled low but nevertheless there have always been those who have worshiped
God and passed on the spiritual truths about being reconciled to God through Jesus etc.
If you’re looking for a specific name on a church building , or a specific title to a group then
you’ll miss this truth . It seems that Mormon leaders want you to focus on that criteria , but
it has little to do with actually identifying those who have received salvation( eternal life) from
God by embracing the truth about Jesus and being accepted by Him . Yet Mormon leaders have
taught that salvation was unavailable to mankind for 1700 years until 1830 !
One last thing for you to ponder : you mentioned ” the 300 + christian religions ” . What about
the 100+ Mormon ” denominations ” which have arose ?
Please take seriously Jesus’ counsel —Mark 13:22-23 , and test your prophets /apostles —-
1 Jn 4:1 .
grindael,
you make good points but the last portion when you state “the need for a “priesthood” as an intercessor, and “prophets” who speak for Christ instead of the Holy Spirit speaking directly to all, are all inventions by Jo to aggrandize himself,”
“Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” Amos 3:7
Mormons believe in personal revelation through the holy spirit just to be clear, but this verse from the good book is contadictive to your statement above.
Jarron21
You said
“Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” Amos 3:7
I’m sure you already know that Amos was an Old Testament Prophet who was speaking in the time we know as the age of the Prophets. That time ended with the coming of Christ. In Old Testament times Prophets were needed to communicate Gods will to the people but since the time of Christ there has been no need of Prophets; prophecy yes, that is a gift of the Spirit who indwells all true believers but Prophets, no. Putting it simply, they are no longer necessary as the Holy Spirit indwells all true believers & communicates directly with us. This is I suppose yet another example of something I mentioned in a different topic earlier today namely the attempt by the LDS to insinuate Old Testament teachings into the New Covenant When an organization begins to base its teachings on the Old Covenant it will tend to reduce in importance everything we know of Christ & the truth of this is born out by the things Mormons say when they come in here.
Be very clear about this Jarron, what we are talking about is part of the enemies plan to make Christ’s sacrifice of secondary importance to the law & legalism practised by the LDS. Take a very close look at your organization, do a little research, especially into Joseph Smith & hopefully you will begin to see that Grindael was absolutely correct in what he said concerning him.
@falcon.
One thing I dont understand about your post. What is your point on the numerous Mormon sects? Christianity has quadrupole the number of different sects than Mormonism, each with their own doctrine. I can go to two separate baptist churches in the same city and learn completely different doctrines, how is that any different from what has happened with Mormonism ?
One question that I have is about being saved. I believe in the savior Jesus Christ, and accept him into my heart . Why then does it matter which religion I chose to associate myself with ? Whatever you think about the Mormons is yours to think, but I would guess that you each know someone that is Mormon and who is also a good person.
Old man et al.
You all know which religion and sect I belong to, but what about y’all ?
Old man,
If God is the same yesterday,today, and forever, how is it that he once used prophets to help direct large groups of people, but now you believe he has stopped?
Grindael,
Ok that is the second time ive heard this statement about god blinding people to know the truth. That seems very cruel to me. That doesnt seem like the plan of heavenly father to have us return to be with him. Why would he blind his children from seeing truth in order to send them on purpose to be seperated from him. That doesnt make sense.
cattyjane,
Here’s a concept. God is sovereign. He can do whatever He wants. Whether we think it’s right, or fair. He’s sovereign. The Bible is very clear on that. I’d have to look it up but Paul says something like, “Does the clay tell the potter how to make the pot?”
Look we can dance around this all day long but what you and J/22 or any other Mormon who reads this needs to do is compare the God of orthodox Christianity with the Mormon God. Then read the NT and determine whose got it right. Next do the same with Jesus.
Frankly, I’m not really interested in a god who used to be a man but who, by following a religious system, became a god. I’m also not interested in a Jesus who is the spirit off-spring of the Mormon Heavenly Father of this planet and one of his many wives.
Go back and take a look at who God was said to be in the early years of Mormonism.
J/22
Here’s the problem, I don’t recognize the BoM as scripture. It is the revelation of JS own imagination.
I believe in prophets. I believe in revelation. Go and read the fourth chapter of Ephesians and First Corinthians 12, 13, and 14. I’m down with that. No problem. But all I have to know is who someone’s God is and then I’ll tell you who is speaking to that person.
As far as what church I belong to. I belong to the Mystical Body of Christ peopled by all those born again believers in the Lord Jesus Christ as He is revealed in the Bible.
God harden hearts after they themselves harden them first. Consider Pharaoah, for example. See Rom 1:24, 2 Thess 2:10-11, etc. Also, cattyjane has acknowledged that 2Thess is referring to the time of the Antichrist in a previous post, not about the great apostasy. It appears as though a plain reading of the text led cattyjane to believe that this is referring to something different than what the LDS church would have us believe.
Jarron21,
“If God is the same yesterday,today, and forever, how is it that he once used prophets to help direct large groups of people, but now you believe he has stopped?”
Yes. He has stopped speaking to us through prophets and now speaks to us through His Son.
Hebrews 1:1, 2
I have a question for you, is your god the same yesterday, today and forever? Or is he ever changing and progressing?
Jaron21,
“You all know which religion and sect I belong to, but what about y’all ?”
I belong to the Body of Christ. For me it’s not about “religion” it’s about a personal relationship with Jesus. It’s not about which church building I step into or what the believers in that building call themselves (Lutheran, Baptist, Non Denominational.) I love this quote , ” Sitting in church doesn’t make you a Christian anymore than sitting in your garage makes you a car.”
Mist Test,
But why would God not allow the person to be open to receiving his truth? I know we are given free agency to make our choices but to me if a person is seeking to please god and become worthy than why would he reject them that way?
Cattyjane. My replies are limited since I can only use my phone till maybe friday.
You said it seems cruel that god would harden his childrens hearts and send them to hell.
You need to go back and read your bible better. Jesus said, some people have the devil as there father. Not everyone is a child of God, but s child of the devil.
I you read the context around the few verses I gave you would see that the people referred to were not trying to please God. Do you assume that everyone, regardless how they curse God with their mouths and lives, are somehow trying to please God?
God is essentially saying, “This is what you wanted instead of Me? Well, this is what you are getting.” But this does not mean that those who have rejected God and chosen a Hedonistic life in place of God are beyond saving, for this is the story of the Christian. Rom 5.8, 1Pet 3.18.
Jarron21
In response to your questions I can only repeat, more or less, what others here have said.
You ask what religion or sect we belong to & the answer for me is none. I belong to the Body of Christ, Gods Church.
“If God is the same yesterday,today, and forever, how is it that he once used prophets to help direct large groups of people, but now you believe he has stopped?”
God stopped using Prophets more than 2000 years ago, I explained the reason why in my previous post but perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. We have no need of Prophets today because revelation, in spite of what your false prophets tell you, is not continuous. All that had gone before in the Old Testament led to Christ & His work of redemption, if you want some evidence for this read Acts 17:11-12 When Christ said on the cross ‘it is finished’ he wasn’t telling us that He was about to die He was telling the world that Gods great plan of salvation was complete. So, as there is nothing more that can be added to that plan, there is no further need for Prophets because there is nothing more to be revealed. God speaks to us now, those of us who have put their trust in Christ, as individuals by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We have believed God & put our trust in him.
I hope that helps you to understand a little more.
cattyjane,
In thinking about it what you probably need to do is just jump in whole hog, full-on throttle, pedal to the metal into the Mormon church.
Now you’re going to have to snag yourself a man to resurrect you by calling your secret name but if not I’ve heard the Mormon god assigns a woman married to a Mormon slacker, to a man in the CK who’s done the work.
You may get a lot of personal satisfaction, depending on your current needs, on doing the Mormon religious system. There are a lot of people who like the Salt Lake City sect of Mormonism with all of it’s work related religious rituals and rules.
Now from my perspective the problem with doing as I’ve suggested you do is that you’ll go to hell. Now that is a considerable downside I admit. But the problem is that while doing the Mormon system may prove satisfying to you, the process can’t provide for you eternal life.
The only way that can happen is to find out who Jesus really is, accept the sacrifice he has made for sin on your behalf, and as a result be born again.
@ Jarron 21:
I think that most who comment on this site and maybe even the people who run it follow some form
of Calvinism. Maybe even some Lutheranism. I asked on another site where Evangelicals come
from, like from Baptists or Church of Christ, etc. Or are Evangelicals their own entity and follow doctrine from many Protestant religions? Would someone like to explain? I am asking in honesty.
Thanks!
@old man
If that be the case, then why the need for the apostles after Christ’s ascention ?
@Falcon
telling someone they will go to hell is pretty serious stuff, I didn’t know you were making the judgments on the matter. Tell me this though, If I have Accepted The Sacrafice of Jesus Christ, and accepted him into my heart, how then can I go to hell?
Jarron,
I’m sure Old Man can answer for himself. I hope it’s okay if I chime in.
Apostle meant to go forth. Apsotle means messenger or teacher.
I took this for Wikipedia.
“The word “apostle” comes from the Greek word ἀπόστολος (apóstólos). By breaking it down into its constituents it gives us a literal translation of “from the fleet”. By deriving ἀπό (apó) meaning from and στολος (stólos) meaning fleet.
The more general meaning of the word as one who is sent on a mission is translated into Latin as missio, and from this word we get missionary.
According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, “…Judaism had an office known as apostle (שליח)”. The Friberg Greek Lexicon gives a broad definition as one who is sent on a mission, a commissioned representative of a congregation, a messenger for God, a person who has the special task of founding and establishing churches. The UBS Greek Dictionary also describes an apostle broadly as a messenger. The Louw-Nida Lexicon gives a very narrow definition of a special messenger, generally restricted to the immediate followers of Jesus, or extended to some others like Paul or other early Christians active in proclaiming the gospel.”
Apostles were needed to spread Christ’s message and grow the Church.
Jarron said, “Tell me this though, If I have Accepted The Sacrafice of Jesus Christ, and accepted him into my heart, how then can I go to hell?”
Because you accept the sacrifice of a false Jesus, which is really no Jesus at all. If someone serves a God who doesn’t exist then they will have to pay the consequence. Just slapping the label of “Jesus” on something does dot make it the true Jesus. Either your Jesus is the true Jesus or my Jesus is the true Jesus, it’s not both because we both serve different Jesuses. But there is hope if you repent. I hope that helps.
J/21
No I’m absolutely not in the business of sending someone to hell and I didn’t imply that. To tell someone that if there aren’t “in” Christ Jesus Our Lord that they will go to hell isn’t just an attention getter. It’s what the Bible teaches. Read the Book of Acts. The purpose of Jesus coming here and dieing on the Cross was for the salvation of mankind. However that is received through faith in Jesus Christ. Now “Jesus” is the qualified Savior. The Mormon Jesus is not the qualified Savior. He’s a being that I’m unfamiliar with. So tell me who this Jesus is that you are putting your faith in. Then tell me what it means to be saved. What Mormons believe about salvation isn’t taught in the Bible. My guess is that it isn’t even in the BoM.
Silkworm,
It’s kind of fun for me for you Mormons to try and guess what flavor we Christians are. It’s really of no concern to us however. I can get along with folks from any denomination as long as they’ve got the eight to ten basic doctrines down. I’m not really concerned if someone is a Calvinist, Lutheran and YIKES even Catholic.
Wow! Ok..so I was forced to do a small bit of homework for this reply.
Rick B,
Phone replies are horrible I know. I understand if you cant reply. My computer is busted so I to have been reduced to this madness.
You said some of us have the devil as our father…no sorry I cant buy into that one. We are all children of heavenly father. Our spirits existed with him before we were given fleshly form. Jeremiah 1:5-10 He knew us before we were formed in the womb. Hold on im already set up for your rebuttle! 🙂 Isaiah 45:4 Talks about Cyrus and how god says that Cyrus didnt know him so you might say well if Cyrus didnt know him than he was never a spirit with god….BUT…this passage is not speaking of knowing as in knowing who someone is, its speaking of acknowlegement. Cyrus did not worship the God of Israel but god used him anyway to free the Israelites.
So lets assume for a moment that we chase the forknowledgement of God theory (man I need spell chk on my phone, that just looks spelled wrong haha). So if God knew everything about us before he made us, he knew everything we would do and if we would choose to follow him or not, then why…if he is loving…would he create someone he knew would choose the wrong path only to send them to hell?
Mist Test,
No I dont think everyone who curses God is trying to please God. I am speaking about people who are trying to please god and come closer to him-even if the path is not exactly correct. Why would god harden their hearts if they had the right motive? Why would he make it so they couldnt find the whole truth? If they are seeking god and his will..how is that choosing hell?
Falcon,
Haha! Wow no mercy! You pulled the hell card! Well ive heard the secret name thing before…i dont know how true that is..ill have to double chk that. I havent heard about the back up husbands tho…I hope they are good looking. Forever is a long time! Haha!
Jarron21,
When you were asking about apostles being needed after christs d & r were you speaking of the 12 that were alive and preaching the word?
Falcon,
Same Jesus…He is the son of god the father in heaven. He was perfect, he sacrificed himself, died and returned to sit at the right hand of the father in heaven. How is yours different?
cattyjane,
You said, “Why would god harden their hearts if they had the right motive?” God does not harden anyone’s heart first, they harden their own heart then God hands them over to their insolence, but the damage is not irreparable, they can still repent.
You said, “Why would he make it so they couldnt find the whole truth?” That is really not the right question to ask. A better question would be, “Why does God save any people by His grace when they all despise the truth?”
You said, “If they are seeking god and his will..how is that choosing hell?” Read Romans 3.10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18. This is a small sample of what the fall has done to humanity; it is serious business and everyone is guilty. No matter how bad we want to look at ourselves in the mirror and convince ourselves that we are good people like a teary episode of extreme makeover home edition we know that we are not.
@Falcon
There is only One Savior Jesus Christ. Here is just one verse from the BOM. I only post it because you said it is not found in the BOM.
” Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.”
-Mormon 9:12
We believe in the same Jesus ! Is that not a good thing ?
@cattyjane
I was just wondering why After Christ ascended to heaven they needed apostles. The 12 that kept the church going. My point was basically why do we not need apostles now ?
cattyjane,
I just caught this other thing you said, “I am speaking about people who are trying to please god and come closer to him-even if the path is not exactly correct.”
This is way, way, way, way off the radar of Christian orthodoxy, with all due respect. I am not trying to appear to be mean or anything. Falcon would you like to lovingly answer this question since I stole your response to jarron (sorry about that)? If not then I will gladly respond.
No it’s not. You are quoting from the OLD COVENANT. And you didn’t pay attention to the scriptures I quoted above. (Acts 3). All of the prophets testified of the one to come, God’s ultimate Revelation, Jesus Christ. Once Jesus came, there was no need for a “spokesman for God”, since,
With the coming of Jesus and the Comforter, we no longer need any of the trappings of the “law and the prophets”. Jo took you all backwards, not forwards. He placed a death yoke around your necks, by reinstituting regulations that are a curse not a blessing. There is no longer a need for any priesthood, for the great High Priest, Jesus, became so, “not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.” Hebrews 7:16
Jo called himself an apostle first, before dubbing himself a “prophet, seer, and revelator”. He has been tested and found false (Revelation 2:2) His reinstitution of regulations, an empty priesthood, his false prophecies, moral failures, and blasphemy (the Book of Abraham foremost), all attest to this.
The Mormon Church teaches that you may have only limited “revelation”. You can never contradict, criticize or question a Mormon “prophet” or you will suffer the consequences. This is not a church of common consent, it is a church run by dictators. How do they put it? Oh yeah, “Follow the prophet even if he tells you to do something wrong.” Anyone that would affirm anyone that taught this in lieu of common sense is only deceiving themselves. That is simply the height of arrogance.
My post before that one is apparently in moderation limbo, here it is:
cattyjane,
You said, “Why would god harden their hearts if they had the right motive?” God does not harden anyone’s heart first, they harden their own heart then God hands them over to their insolence, but the damage is not irreparable, they can still repent.
You said, “Why would he make it so they couldnt find the whole truth?” That is really not the right question to ask. A better question would be, “Why does God save any people by His grace when they all despise the truth?”
You said, “If they are seeking god and his will..how is that choosing hell?” Read Romans 3.10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18. This is a small sample of what the fall has done to humanity; it is serious business and everyone is guilty. No matter how bad we want to look at ourselves in the mirror and convince ourselves that we are good people like a teary episode of extreme makeover home edition we know that we are not.
Cattyjane,
You need to do some serious research into LDS doctrine and theology. You have no clue what Mormonism even teaches. Yes you get a secret name in the temple and so does your husband. You cannot know his secret name but he has to know yours so he can call you from the grave. An interesting side note is that everyone taking out endowments and receiving their new name on that day, ALL receive the same name! For example, all the women may be given the name Mary and all the men may be given the name Adam. I would hate to be a man waiting for Jesus to call me, how many men have the same temple name? Yes LDS women who are married to men not interested in Mormonism are hopeful that the Mormon god will give them to a worthy man for eternity. I have an LDS friend who cannot stand her husband and one day she said that she knows she needs him to get into heaven. Please do some research. I have been reading your posts on several different topics and it’s clear that you don’t have a basic knowledge of Mormonism. How can you decide you want to be LDS if you don’t know the doctrines and teachings? In fact I would recommend you start at the source in your research. Start with Joseph Smith and all that he really did. Not the whitewashed version you may have learned at church, but all of it. Maybe start with the rock in the hat, or maybe you could start with the first vision, polygamy, polyandry, his avenging angel, or his danites. I’m betting that even in the current teaching manuals of the LDS church these things are still being whitewashed.
Cattyjane,
You said,”if he is loving…would he create someone he knew would choose the wrong path only to send them to hell?”
God isn’t out to make a bunch of robots. He created us with free will. We choose Him or we don’t. Giving creation free will is an extremely loving act. God will not force us. Hell is not God’s punishment. It is a choice that one makes. You choose to unite yourself with God or you don’t. Hell is life without God. People talk about the three Mormon heavens like they are all heaven. The two lower kingdoms, if the existed, would be a type of hell because they are life without God.
You said, ” Our spirits existed with him before we were given fleshly form. Jeremiah 1:5-10 He knew us before we were formed in the womb.”
That scripture talks about God knowing us beforehand. Of course an all knowing God that exists inside and outside of time would have that ability. Please provide a scripture that talks about us existing before our fleshly form.
You also say, ” I am speaking about people who are trying to please god and come closer to him-even if the path is not exactly correct. ”
This is an interesting concern coming from someone LDS. You do understand that because I am an LDS apostate the LDS Church says that I will be denied life with God. Even though I am “trying to please God and come closer to Him.”
LDS God is completely different. LDS Christ is your brother and the brother of Lucifer. He is not eternally God. LDS Heavenly Father was also not eternally God. LDS Christ and Heavenly Father are progressing, not all knowing, all powerful. just more knowledgable and more powerful. LDS Heavenly Father was a man who became God. Christ is God who lowered himself to human form to redeem mankind. LDS Christ has other motives to come to Earth aside from being our Savior. He needs to exalt himself through getting a body. CHrist has no other motive to being our Savior other than His love for us. I could go on. But I hope you can see Mormonism uses the same words with different definitions. It is not Christianity. Not the same God.
Paul makes total sense if you understand Greek and how it was translated into English. Here is a clue.
Jarron,
you said, “My point was basically why do we not need apostles now ?”
What did the twelve apostles do that isn’t being accomplished in Christ’s Church (the body of believers) that isn’t being done today?
Kate,
Ya your right I dont know about the deep doctrinal stuff of the lds church. I just didnt dig into it that much when I joined. I quit going because I heard some negative stuff about the church. I got married to a nonmember who became a horrible mean alcoholic and wasted 5 years of my life with him. Now im divorced and im trying to find the right path to raise my daughter. I know my daughter needs God in her life and I know that the lds church provides strong family values. I often think if my exhusband and I would have been active in the church than things wouldnt have gotten so bad.I dont claim to know everything about the lds church, your church or the scriptures. I only know what ive been told or read on my own. Do I believe everything I have bbeen told about the doctrine? No I dont but I also dont believe everything these other churches spout off either.
Ok..im done…theres my boring life story cliff notes version.