A reference-recipe for well-rounded engagement of Mormonism

Want to do a well-rounded engagement of Mormonism? Study and quote:

  • General Conference talks
  • “Correlated” priesthood and relief society manuals
  • Institute and seminary manuals (what the teens and college students are being taught)

This is what makes Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson so awesome — they work hard to keep abreast of LDS literature, with a special focus on the manuals that are actually being used to teach Mormons.

And then, if possible:

  • 19th century LDS scripture
  • Popular literature found at Deseret Book, etc.
  • Works of LDS neo-orthodoxy (generally BYU professors)
  • “Mormon Doctrine”, by Bruce McConkie
  • Works of James Talmage (pivotal theological figure of the “reconstruction era” of Mormon history)
  • Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought

It also helps to be able to summarize the historical development of a particular doctrine (using the term loosely here). A really helpful work on this is This Is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology, by Charles Harrell. Quoting from the Journal of Discourses (essentially the 19th century “Conference Reports”!) also is relevant when surveying historical LDS teachings.

A sloppy countercultist will overly depend on 19th century quotes of brazen leaders like Brigham Young and Orson Pratt. Conversely, a quasi-ecumenical liberal will tend to only quote from 19th century Mormon scripture and the works of neo-orthodox BYU professors.

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144 Responses to A reference-recipe for well-rounded engagement of Mormonism

  1. cattyjane says:

    Somehow I missed your 3:55 post till now…but ok im hearing you on all that.

  2. Old man says:

    Jarron21, cattyjane & anyone else I should reply to
    Sorry that it sometimes takes a while for me to respond, Living in the UK means I’m on a very different time scale & I’m usually going to bed when you’re posting.

    First of all I’ll respond to this comment from Jaxi
    “I’m sure Old Man can answer for himself. I hope it’s okay if I chime in.”
    Of course it’s ok, I don’t always make myself clear so anything that helps to clarify what I say is very welcome. There’s nothing I can add to your reply but I do find it interesting that Mormons call certain of their leaders Apostles; I can only assume that it’s done to give the impression that they are following the original ‘set up’ of the Church when actually by using the word they show a distinct lack of understanding.

    Jarron21 said this
    “Tell me this though, If I have Accepted The Sacrafice of Jesus Christ, and accepted him into my heart, how then can I go to hell?”
    The most direct answer to that question is, & I say this to all Mormons reading here. You haven’t really accepted Christ into your heart, those words are meaningful when used by Christians but have little meaning when used by Mormons. I have explained why this is so several times now but I’ll try once more.
    Christians accept Christ’s finished work of redemption; simply put they believe that Christ’s sacrifice was enough & need add nothing to it. Mormons on the other hand try to introduce Old Testament practices into the New Testament & as I said before, you CANNOT do that. Well, you can but don’t expect your beliefs to be acknowledged by God.
    Jarron, you must choose to live by faith or live by the law, it’s your choice.

    You made mention of secret names, those names aren’t as secret as the LDS would like them to be. There’s an online site where, providing you know the persons endowment date, you can look up their ‘secret name’ My Ex never told me hers so it came as quite a shock to her when I told her what it was.

    Cattyjane said
    “I know that the lds church provides strong family values”

    The LDS doesn’t provide strong family values it demands them but I do understand what you’re saying. I must emphasise this however, when those values aren’t followed, especially by men, the resulting problems are very often shrugged off & ignored. So, on the face of it you’re right but when you delve a little deeper you will find that the picture isn’t quite as rosy as it’s painted. It’s like turning over a stone & watching what crawls out.
    I’m sorry that you had such a torrid time with your Ex husband but I’m equally sure from the stories I have read about abuse in the LDS that had he been a member he would have simply been an abusive member, one that would quite possibly have been supported by the church simply because he’s a man.
    I’ve talked to you before about doing a little research on other topics so perhaps you could do some research on abuse in the LDS &, although this isn’t directly related to your experience, you will find for example that child abuse in the Mormon church is just as bad as it was in the Catholic Church, the only difference being that the LDS has paid out hundreds of millions to keep it all quiet. That is a fact!
    Quite clearly you are concerned for your daughter & I feel for you catty, I really do, so please, before going any further down that road, do some serious investigating; pray about the things you have read in here, check them out & don’t take LDS explanations at face value, do your own independent research. Don’t put your daughters neck in the LDS noose. I know she is only 5 years old but you could sit with her & read the Bible, show her what the New Testament reveals about Christ, talk about Him with her. You don’t need the Corporation telling you what to do, what to wear, what to read. You don’t want them controlling every aspect of you & your daughters life. That isn’t Gods way it’s the way of a cult.
    You know the advice you were given on a different topic so please take it, don’t look to any organization for answers, take some time off & look to God.

  3. jaxi says:


    I have four young children. I am grateful everyday I took them out of the LDS Church. I was very happy being LDS. I followed the rules, was extremely active. I was in the Primary Presidency when I left. I was not offended by anyone. I was not upset. It was a shocker to all that knew me tht I left. The only reason I left is because Mormonism is founded on lies. It’s easy to figure it out. I didn’t read one bit of anti material. I didn’t go to one anti website. I was too scared to look at those sources because they were “evil lies.” I found out that LDS Church was lying to me by digging up old primary sources. the things that the LDS Church doesn’t like to put in their manuals anymore. I later found the site Mormonthink.org and discovered that almost everything onit was stuff I had already uncovered onmy own. It was interesting to find out then the anti material wasnt so anti. What happens to most LDS when they leave the LDS Church is that they become athiest or agnostic. I think it’s because they are so heartbroken by being deceived by something that is supposed to be so personal and meaningful that they cant trust God or faith or religion anymore. If I stayed my kids would have figured out. THe info is so easily accessible now. I would have had to deal with the heartbreak of believing the lie that now my eternal family is broken. My mom thinks she is a total failure because all three of her children have left. She did a good job raising us. If your daughter grows up LDS and figures out the history and the lies, raising her in the LDS Church will bring nothing but heartache.

  4. falcon says:

    I must admit to getting really frustrated when Mormons do the Evangelical Christian talk, using the same lingo, about believing in and having received Jesus as their personal Savior.
    Let me tell you bluntly, it’s not the same Jesus!
    The Mormon Jesus is the spirit off-spring of one of the Mormon gods and one of his many wives who live on or near the planet Kolob. Who is that? Is that the Jesus revealed in the Bible? No! Definitions matter. A god who doesn’t exist cannot provide anything for anyone much less eternal life. Mormons play this word game in order to have uninformed folks believe that it’s all the same. It’s not!

    I must admit that I am stunned about your lack of knowledge of Mormonism. Why in the world would you even consider joining a religious group without taking their doctrine, history and practices apart and examining them? Perhaps you are in the process of doing that now.
    I would start with the most fundamental of doctrines and that is the doctrine concerning the nature of God. There are more sensational, attention grabbing aspects of Mormonism but this is the most important.
    But just for fun, did you know:
    *that Joseph Smith’s technique/process of “translating” some golden plates he said he found, from Reformed Egyptian (a none existent language) to English was by putting his magic seer stone in his hat and shoving his face (in the hat) and words magically appeared regarding what was on these golden plates?
    *that he had previously used that magic rock regularly in leading a group of people to find buried treasure in the ground? He claimed to be able to see into the ground with his rock.
    *that Joseph Smith was married to at least thirty-three women some of whom were adolescent girls and women married to other men?
    *that Brigham Young taught that the Mormon god the father procreated the Mormon Jesus by having actual physical sex with the Virgin Mary?

    This list could go on-and-on but just to give you a taste. I would suggest you go to the sponsor of this blog, Mormon Research Ministry or Mormon Think, and do some reading. If after you read and study, you want to become a Mormon, with your eyes wide-open then go for it.
    If I were you I wouldn’t be so concerned over the “right” church as I would the right set of beliefs.

  5. cattyjane says:

    Falcon, jaxi, oldman,

    Wow. Well I want to do what is best for my daughter. Its been a couple of years since my divorce and we never settled down in a church. I was just to busy with finishing my degree and getting everything settled. My job moved us to a new town and I thought this would be a good opportunity to set down some some spiritual roots and traditions.
    All of you have made me realize that I really dont understand anything about god and maybe I dont have any real beliefs that are my own. I think im just going to put everything on the back burner for a while. The things that you have shared have made me very hesitant about the church. I looked up some info on what the kids will learn in primary and I dont think im ready to immerse my daughter in something I dont have a full testimony about. Getting my bachelors degree was a lot easier than figuring out church and god. This is just a big mess.

  6. Brewed says:

    I can really relate to your observance of the LDS family values thing.
    When I first moved to Utah I was coming from a family ripped apart by a very ugly divorce. I noticed so many happy and large loving families in Utah. I attributed it to the LDS church and found that it made the church very appealing. After I became a Christian I realized that family values are not unique to the LDS church. After all, who’s behind “focus on the family” and many other family centered organizations?
    I also noticed after becoming friends with many LDS women with families of their own, behind closed doors the LDS are just as dysfunctional as the rest of us, they just try desperately hard to hide it.
    Every christian church will also enforce family values. I think the family unit is important to God. He tells us to raise up our children to know him. Mathew 18:6 and Mark 9:42 Jesus talks about how important children are to him. It’s well known that a strong family unit is important to kids.
    Where my husband grew up and went to HS was near a mega church. Guess what group of kids had the strongest moral values? The best familiar relationships? The Mega church kids. It was obvious too, they stood out like a light in the darkness within his school body. In fact, their behavior and relationship with God had an enormous positive impact on my husbands life.

    The point I’m trying to make is that the LDS family values is probably the number one thing that draws people into the church and though family is important, don’t be deceived.
    A false church lead by false prophets is not the best place to raise a child. You will find strong family values in any other christian church. Don’t hang on to that and let it blind you. When you put God first everything else falls into place as it should.

  7. falcon says:

    I hope we haven’t over-whelmed you with information. You have to remember that you’re dealing with a bunch of fanatics here……..or should I say folks who are passionate. I don’t think any of us would be inclined to “convert” you to a particular Christian flavor. But each of us would be intent on you coming to a realization of who Jesus is and what He did for us.
    Let me give you an example. For about the last year my wife and I’ve been attending a Lutheran Church. We aren’t members and have no intention of joining. I go because the basic beliefs of this particular Lutheran group line-up with basic orthodox Christianity, I can relate to the people and I like the donuts and coffee.
    I don’t much care if they want to baptize babies or what ever some of their other distinctives are. I like the worship service (modern edge-y) and the preaching is right down the line. They don’t preach “Lutheranism”. Did I mention that I like the donuts and coffee?
    Although I’ve come to know a lot of people there, I can still remain sort of anonymous. No one is pushy. Other people have their particular need set which may or may not include donuts and coffee. I study on my own, pray on my own, relate to whom ever I want to within the Body of Christ when and where I want to.
    I’m not giving this as a prescription. It’s just what my wife and I do and we’re very content with it.
    There’s one thing I wouldn’t push to the side right now if I were you. I’d at least come to some understanding of who Jesus is, what He has done for us, and place my faith in Him for your salvation. Then pray and be incredibly skeptical. Question everything. Search out your own answers.

  8. Kate says:


    I don’t mean to sound so rude, I just want you to see what you will be getting yourself into. It’s better that you know all the doctrines and history of the LDS church BEFORE you get sucked into the program.

    I raised my kids LDS and my oldest son figured it all out by the time he was in the sixth grade. It was like pulling teeth to get him to church. When I started researching I involved my husband and my kids. They learned right along with me. Are we less of a family now that we are no longer LDS? Have our morals and values changed? No. Would we still have these morals and values if we had never been LDS? Yes. I know people who have never been LDS that lead good, moral lives. My sister in law grew up without any religion. She has had the missionaries sent to her home countless times and she lets them in on the condition that they don’t preach their religion. One missionary was shocked that they weren’t LDS because they were such a fun happy family.

    It is confusing. I went through an entire year so confused and heartbroken when I started researching. It took another 3 years of research before I finally had my name and records removed. Which is a horrible process. The church doesn’t make that easy. Since resigning I have been love bombed and have had missionaries sent here many times even though in my resignation letter I stated that I want no contact from the church. They have no respect and certainly no boundaries.

    One thing you may want to think about with your daughter is that when she’s a teenager she will be called in for a bishop ‘s interview every year. You are not allowed in with her and she will be alone in a room with an adult man who will be asking her some pretty inappropriate questions of a sexual nature. I put my oldest son through that twice. I didn’t know that’s what was being asked until after the second time. I never let him go again and I never allowed my other son to go either. I simply refused the interview when the clerk called to set it up.

    I’m sorry to hear that you have had such a rough time, no church can help us through those things but there is one who can and that is Jesus.

  9. Brewed says:

    Catty I conquer with Falcon,
    The vital thing to learn right now is Jesus. We don’t want to make you overwhelmed or confused.. Finding a good church body is important but knowing Jesus is more important.
    Also, If you are coming from Mormonism you may find difficulties others don’t. There are a lot of Christian sounding things taught in Mormonism but their definitions are different. It is a difficult transition. I would urge you to continue the pursuit of Christ and he will meet you and take you by the hand. I always think of the story of Prodigal Son. When the son made the decision to leave, the father let him go. The father didn’t chase after him, didn’t beg. The father let the son go. While the son was gone, the father would still keep watch for the sons return but never went after him. When the son made the decision to returned, the father ran to him. God will run to you. He doesn’t care what your condition is, he doesn’t care if you turned from him, he doesn’t care about anything other than the fact that you want to return to him.

    I will be praying for you and your precious daughter. Please come here any time you have questions.

  10. Old man says:


    You’re doing the right thing, far better to have no commitment at the moment than to have commitment to something false, something that could eventually cause a major rift between yourself & your daughter. I’m sure that almost any of the ex-Mormon contributors in here could explain that to you. Jaxi touched on the subject in her last post & although I have no personal experience of such things I have read many heart-rending stories from ex-members. Falcon gave you the name of a great source of information, Mormonthink.com a site created & maintained mainly by Mormons & ex-Mormons who want the truth about the LDS to be known, it’s well worth a visit. The advice he gives in his last post is important, it’s so easy to be led astray by feelings or imagination, I know because I’ve been down that road.
    Finally let me say that not belonging to an organization does not mean cutting yourself or your daughter off from God, it simply means giving yourself time away from pressure & time to learn the things you need to know at your own speed. Good luck & God bless. We’ll be praying for you.

  11. Kate says:

    Old man,

    I am in shock that there is a way to find out the secret names. I wonder how many men just go ahead and tell their wives? This is one of those subjects that make me sick. I will wait for Jesus to call me from the grave. I imagine some Mormon men love the idea that they alone have the power to call their wife from the grave. How arrogant. What do they need Jesus for then? Some of the thing written by church leaders on this subject are disgusting for example:

    “Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? ‘What! – my husband to be my lord?’ I ask, Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom without the aid of your husband. If you did, it was because your husband was away, and some one had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant” (Journal of Discourses 5:291). Mormon Apostle Erastus .

    If she is worthy to have a husband? Uphold your husband as your lord? These things are still believed in Mormonism even if they have been watered down. What woman would knowingly throw away the true and living Christ for this? If LDS leaders were this bold today, how many women would be LDS?

  12. Kate says:

    That should be Mormon apostle Erastus Snow.

  13. cattyjane says:

    I knew that interviews with the bishop were required for getting your temple recommend but I didnt think that they would ask graphic questions like that from kids. And your right I would be very uncomfortable with my daughter be asked that and in a room alone with the bishop.

    I would love to have the confidence and assurance that all of you have in your beliefs. I just dont understand who Jesus is and how he relates to God. I dont know how you know if God has excepted you. I dont know how much we have to understand or how much we have to believe or what we have to do in order to receive that acceptance. And if it is received..then what? Where do you go from there?
    I know this is off the deep doctrine topic but I just wanted to respond to what you said.

  14. cattyjane says:

    BTW thanks for the prayers everyone.

  15. jaxi says:


    If I could make a recommendation. When I left Mormonism I had to figure out what Chrsitianity was. I needed to start over and just get a good grasp on the essentials. Go to a book store and get the book, “Mere Christianity,” by C.S. Lewis. Many of his other works are excellent as well. This gave me a good grasp of the basics as a reread the New Testament with new eyes. He will not tell you what group of Christians to fellowship with. That will come later. You will figure that out. That book helped me so much with understanding the nature of God, why we are here, what we are supposed to be doing.
    God Bless you and your daughter.

  16. Old man says:


    I understand your confusion but rest assured that in time it will leave you. For the time being you must learn to trust. That isn’t the easiest thing in the world to do especially when your broken marriage is taken into account but if you believe in the God of the Bible then logic dictates that He must be trustworthy. All too often, & this can be seen so clearly in Greek mythology, the gods people follow are very little more than imaginary versions of a rather superior man. A man with the power to do anything he wants but with all the failings of a human. That is NOT the God we worship & follow, the God we have come to know can be trusted completely, He never lets us down, He never fails to accomplish what He has planned for us. He is nothing like the false LDS god who changes his mind every few years, a god who gives to his followers a doctrine that will stand for all time & within the space of a generation declares it to be null & void.

    God has most definitely accepted you, have you thought that perhaps it was He who guided you to this site? You may have thought you were coming here to show people the truth of Mormonism but God, as He so often does, turns things around for our own good. He has His hand on you catty so for now just accept the way things are, keep your situation before Him, put your trust in Him & He will gently lead you to where He wants you to be. Don’t worry about what you should understand or how much you have to believe, those things are not important at the moment. With the passing of time understanding & knowledge will come. For now just commit your way to Christ, there is nothing more you need to do.
    Ps. you won’t go far wrong if you do as Jaxi suggests.

  17. grindael says:

    @ Kate

    You will notice that Mormons here try to undermine the teachings from the Journal of Discourses just because of doctrine taught by those like “apostle” Erastus Snow, (brother of Lorenzo Snow). On the other hand, to support any argument they might have to try and “prove” one of their doctrines, they will quote from them, with comments like

    “he states that it was given under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That is enough for me to accept it as truth.” (Shematwater)

    Well, all of those “prophets” and “apostles” have stated that they speak “under the guidance of the Holy Spirit”. Why would they not do so, if they were REAL apostles? In fact, in their approved and correlated and ready for prime time manual on all things Mormon — Gospel Principles, it says,

    “In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, Church publications, and instructions to local priesthood leaders.” Gospel Principles (rev. ed.; Salt Lake City: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,1995) 55.

    So, how is it that those Conference Addresses, Stake & Local Priesthood Meetings, etc., found in the Journal of Discourses are NOT scripture? Unfortunately for those who wish to use those statements to show what Mormon Doctrine has been in the past (since it changes constantly and shifts like a house built on sand), the Church today publishes statements like the above (that go out to investigators) to build up the notion of “inspired leaders”, but then in other places will say that the Journal of Discourses contain mainly speculation, opinion and folklore. They do this with everything. One set of guidelines for those it wishes to proselyte, and another for those who are critics or ex-members who know their doctrines very well. This is the Mormon Bubble game.

    There are literally hundreds of instances in the Journal of Discourses and Conference Reports where the Mormon “apostles & prophets” and other members of the select hierarchy state that they are indeed speaking by the “power of the Holy Ghost” and that everyone else is too. What the church has done though, is to make an arbitrary rule, in direct contradiction to their own scripture:

    And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost. And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. (D&C 68:2-4)

    Making “scripture” only that which the church VOTES upon. Of course, this is selectively enforced, because they did not do this for the Priesthood Ban, nor for Polygamy. But Mormon “apostles and prophets” have continually made statements that show they have always been well aware that they MUST speak by the “power of the Holy Ghost”. For example, In 1916 Apostle Orson F. Whitney would explain “the great distinguishing feature that differentiates God’s Church [Mormonism] from all other churches under the sun”, and that, he says, is “that while they are founded upon books and traditions and the precepts of men, this Church is built upon the rock of Christ, upon the principle of immediate and continuous revelation.” He then concludes:

    “The Latter-day Saints do not do things because they happen to be printed in a book. They do not do things because God told the Jews to do them; nor do they do or leave undone anything because of instructions that Christ gave to the Nephites. Whatever is done by this Church is because God, speaking from heaven in our day, has commanded this Church to do it. No book presides over this Church and no book lies at its foundation. You cannot pile up books enough to take the place of God’s priesthood, inspired by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is the constitution of the Church of Christ.” Orson F. Whitney, Conference Report, October 1916, p.56

    Apostle John Taylor gives the criteria for all who would “teach the things of God”:

    “Well, who were the ancient Apostles? They were men chosen and selected by Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Who were these Prophets? Men who were in possession of the spirit of prophecy; and you show me a man who is called and inspired of God to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I will show you a Prophet, for we are told that “the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy;” and if a man has not the spirit of prophecy and revelation he is not the man to teach the things of God, for that is the principle by which all God’s chosen and authorized ministers in every age have been inspired, and by which they have taught the things of eternal life to the children of men.” JD, Vol. 16, page 372

    If these men get up and give only “opinions”, or teach “folklore”, then as “apostle” Taylor states, they are “not the man to teach the things of God.” How much more clear can they be? Yet, this is what modern Mormons will try and sell you today, that former teachings must be canonized by a vote of the church to be worth anything at all. Taylor would also expound on the other ‘General Authorities’ of the Church, and their responsibility:

    “And then come the general authorities, who preside over and minister in the affairs of the Church in all the earth. These general quorums are not local, are not limited to any particular Stake or quorum. Their business is to see that the Gospel is preached to the whole world; to impart counsel by the spirit of revelation according to the spirit of their apostleship and calling, as special witnesses and messengers to the world of mankind. These are the First Presidency, and the Twelve Apostles and the Seventies, whose calling and duty is to labor under the direction of the Twelve and bear the gospel to all nations and to regulate the affairs of the Church in all the world. These general authorities are therefore brought before the general conference assembled, for their approval and for them to uphold and sustain by their faith and prayers; and in like manner are they presented at the several Stake conferences so as to reach the masses of the people, to insure the confidence and prayers of the whole people, for whom they minister, and whose eyes are upon them, who are criticising their teachings, their walk and conversation before God and man.

    For God proposes to deal with His Church as a whole, and as a whole to hold them responsible to work the works of righteousness and to defend the faith of the everlasting gospel committed to them, and to purify and sanctify the whole Church and see that evil is put away from our midst, whether it be in the family circle or private walks of life, or in its high officials and those who minister in public capacites; in like manner he requires of them to see that all our organizations and municipalities are in a wholesome condition, and are administered with integrity and uprightness before God and the people.

    And as mouthpieces of the Almighty and as watchmen upon the walls of Zion, God requires of us his servants, the Apostles, the Elders, the Presidents of Stakes, and the Bishops everywhere, not only to minister in their several callings in a church capacity, but also to instruct officers of every kind intrusted with the municipal affairs of life, that they may be found faithful in magnifying the law and discharging the trust reposed in them in secular affairs as well as ecclesiastical; for civil organizations and powers of civil government are also appointed and ordained of heaven for the welfare of mankind, for the protection of all flesh. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20, p. 183-4, Apr. 7, 1879, emphasis mine).

  18. rvales says:


    Start with the Bible! Read it! It doesn’t matter if it’s KJV, NKJV, ESV just start with the Bible. Hold everything you are told and feel to that, the truth in God’s word. The Bible testifies of, and points to, Jesus, it tells you who he is…and as you learn who he is you will learn that the Bible (or anything else for that matter) isn’t the way the you gain life everlasting; complete trust in Jesus is. (John 5:39-40) And if anyone tells you something that is NOT in line with the Bible then turn and run (Galatians 1:8). It doesn’t matter what denomination you are, it matters what you believe about WHO Jesus is and WHAT He accomplished on the cross. And I know I read it above in one of the other comments but it definitely stands to be repeated….When you put God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) first, above self, above creeds, above doctrine everything else falls into place. And I’m sure that anyone who posts here would be happy to discuss the Bible with you, answer your questions, and pray for you.

    And the reason everyone on this board is so passionate is because we each have a saving relationship with Christ Jesus. And not contending for the faith as we are commissioned to do (Jude 1:3) is truly a matter of life everlasting in the presence of God or eternal damnation separated from God for those who are not Christians.

  19. grindael says:

    @ Kate, continued.

    But today, you can’t criticize any of them. You just can’t do it. Are they apostles and prophets, or not? If they are, they are to carry that spirit with them at all times, and if they do not, they are not to teach. Period. This makes EVERYTHING they say in most settings scripture. You can’t have it both ways. But that is EXACTLY what the Mormon Church is doing. In 1948, Milton R. Hunter of the First Council of Seventy declared,

    “I wish to emphasize the fact that this revelation is not limited to Joseph Smith and the other great prophets who preceded him. We have standing at the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today living oracles through whom God reveals his will. Certainly the words of this revelation [D&C 68, quoted above] apply to President George Albert Smith, to his Counselors, to the Twelve Apostles, and to me [one of the Seventy] Patriarch to the Church just as much as they did to Joseph Smith, or to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses, Nephi, Alma, Peter, Paul, or to all of the other ancient prophets of God.” Conference Report, April 1948, p.31

    Mormons today give particular emphasis to Jo Smith, “the head of the dispensation” (as our friend from the Bubble stated), which is not what his own “oracles of God” do. So how can the church today, claim that these men teach opinion, speculation and folklore? Ask your Mormon friends how this can be! I will leave you with this. Ponder it, all you caught inside the Modern Mormon Bubble! In 1952 Stephen L. Richard, then First Councilor to David O. Mckay, when speaking of the Tabernacle stated:

    “In the providence of the Lord, this pulpit has never been any one man’s forum. Rather it has been the oracle of a divine dispensation where the cause has overshadowed the man, where humility has higher rating than self-assurance, where worship is measured in deeds rather than protestations.

    Ponder for a moment, my brethren and sisters, and all who listen, the glorious and vital truths which have been proclaimed in this building — the nature and composition of the Godhead, the organization of the universe, the history and placement of man in the earth, his purpose in living, and the divine destiny set for him, the laws governing his conduct and his eligibility for exaltation in the celestial presence the true concept of family life in the eternal progression of the race, the truth about liberty and the place of governments in the earth, the correct concept of property, its acquisition and distribution, the sure foundations for peace, brotherhood, and universal justice. All these elemental things, and many others incident thereto, have been the burden of the message of truth which has come from this building through the generations.

    …What confidence and assurance it brings to us to know that our men and women of today, surrounded by an environment radically different from that of our forebears who brought this great building into existence, proclaim the same doctrine as did they. How upsetting it would be if we had to choose between the principles and doctrines of their time and ours. We in this Tabernacle hear the same message as did the people in Kirtland and Nauvoo.

    It is true that methods and practices change. They have done in the past, and they may be expected to in the future. It is within the province of a receptive priesthood, obedient to the inspiration of our Father, to adopt and adjust methods, looking toward the advancement of his kingdom. It is also within the province of his chosen servants to interpret and apply the law, but they will never change it, for the law of God is eternal.

    … In all humility I bear witness that here is the seat of the government of the kingdom of God, here is the place where the authorized servants of our Lord are sustained and confirmed by the voice of the people. Here in this venerated Tabernacle has every President of the Church, save only one been upheld as prophet, seer, and revelator, and President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. From here has gone forth the law out of Zion, and the blessings, the love and compassion of the servants of the Lord for his children.

    … Every portion of the building was dedicated that it might fulfill its sacred purpose. Listen to the words regarding this historic rostrum, where my associates of the General Authorities of the Church now sit in your presence: “And we dedicate and consecrate that portion of this house where our president and thy servants now are, to be a holy and sacred place wherein thy servants may stand forth to declare thy words and minister unto thy people in the name of thy Son forever….

    “May thy holy angels and ministering spirits be in and round about this habitation, that when thy servants are called upon to stand in these sacred places, to minister unto thy people, the visions of eternity may be open to their view, and they may be filled with the spirit and inspiration of the Holy Ghost and the gift and power of God; and let all thy people who hearken to the words of thy servants drink freely at the fountain of the waters of life that they may become wise unto salvation, and thereby overcome the world and be prepared for an everlasting inheritance in the celestial kingdom of our God….

    “We pray thee to bless the Twelve Apostles; fill them with the spirit of their office and calling, clothe them with the intelligence of heaven, the light of revelation, and the gift and power of God.” (President Stephen L. Richard, Conference Report, April 1952, p.43-49, emphasis mine).

    Can the Church today, live up to it’s claims of the past? Apparently not.

  20. Jarron21 says:

    @Falcon and Old man

    I understand what your point is, but this is why I do not agree with it.

    Do you know where Jesus came from? where God came from ? Does It even Matter?

    What of evelution and all the scientific proof that goes along with it? These questions are not all answered and probably never will be. How did God create Man? It could be argued that God created man by using evolution . I do not know if I beleive that or not , but we have no account of the hows. Probably because we cannot fully understand all of these things. My point is that none of these things really matter because at the end of the day all we have to go on is faith. There was Only one Jesus Christ. How He and God came to be is not really important in my eyes as long as I believe that they are real.

  21. MistakenTestimony says:

    “Do you know where Jesus came from? where God came from ? Does It even Matter?” Yes. It matters. If someone teaches a completely new religion that includes an alternate God and alternate Jesus, it matters. It matters a lot. Either that new religion is correct or the old religion is correct, but not both because they are both fundamentally different from each other.

    “My point is that none of these things really matter because at the end of the day all we have to go on is faith.” If you are talking about salvation then yes, all we need is faith, but that faith must be in the one true God rather than a false God. However, the context is not referring to salvation, it is talking about knowledge. In that case faith is not all that we have to go on. Truth is not dictated by our own feelings about something, it must also be in accord with the truth. If someone claims to be a Prophet of God and yet they are demonstrably a false prophet, then it matters. It matters a lot. God gave us brains, not just emotions, use both. Who is more likely to convince people to follow their hearts and abandon their minds, a lie or the truth? It can’t be both. It matters a lot.

  22. Brewed says:

    Even Satan and the Demons believe in God. They know who he is and that he is real.
    Believing and obeying his word is more important then simply believing he is real.
    Is Mormonism really supported by God’s already established Word? No. Absolutely not!
    We cannot know where God came from because he is eternal. He has always been. He didn’t “come from”.

    Now lets look at one LDS piece of Doctrine that contradicts biblical teaching.
    Mormonism says there are many gods and even our Heavenly Father is a progressing and evolving being. Someday we may be like him, we may populate our own planet that we create and yadda yadda yadda. Christians know there is only one God. He is Eternal. He has always been. He exists within but also outside of time, space, and matter.

    “there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
    “Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
    “Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
    “See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
    “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
    “You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
    “For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
    “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
    “You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
    “O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
    “You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
    “For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
    “You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
    “Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
    “‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
    “Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
    “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
    “Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
    “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
    “Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
    “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
    “And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad].” Zechariah 14:
    “But do not be called Rabbi; for One [hen] is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.” Matthew 23:8
    “Do not be called leaders; for One [hen] is your Leader, that is, Christ.” Matthew 23:10
    “”The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; ” Mark 12:29
    “you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?” John 5:44
    “I and the Father are one [hen].” John 10:30
    “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God” John 17:3
    “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one [hen], just as We are one [hen]” John 17:22
    “since indeed God is one [hen]” Romans 3:30
    “to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
    “there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
    “yet for us there is but one [hen] God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one [hen] Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Corinthians 8:6
    “Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one [hen].” Galatians 3:20
    “There is one [hen] body and one [hen] Spirit, one [hen] hope, one [hen] Lord, one [hen] faith, one [hen] baptism, one [hen] God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” Ephesians 4:4-6
    “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” 1 Timothy 1:17
    “which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only [monos] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone [monos] possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:16
    “For there is one [hen] God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 2:5
    “You believe that God is one [hen]. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James 2:19
    “For certain persons deny our only [monos] Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Jude 4
    “the only [monos] God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.” Jude 25

    Even Moroni 8:18 says there is only one God.

    Mormonism teaches something else though.
    This is just one example of how false Mormonism is.

    It isn’t just a matter of scientific evidence being lacking.
    It’s contradictions within LDS doctrine, Contradictions between Christianity and Mormonism, racism, sexism, polygamy and lies that are enough to prove the LDS church false.
    The lack of ANY scientific, historical, or anthropological evidence is just the frosting on the cake.

  23. falcon says:

    I don’t know if I follow you. It sounds like you’re confused. I’m finding myself leaning back from the computer saying, “What?”.
    You say there is only one Jesus Christ. I couldn’t agree with you more. So someone has to be wrong. Wouldn’t you agree? Both you and I can’t be right regarding who Jesus is. One of us believes in a false God.
    You wrote: “How He and God came to be is not really important in my eyes as long as I believe that they are real.”
    According to who? There is an authority that tells us plainly who Jesus is. Read the Bible. It’s clear. Jesus is not the spirit off-spring of a god who use to be a sinful man but who through obedience to a religious system morphed into a god and reigns with his polygamous wives on or near the planet Kolob. According to God’s Word there are not many gods and men aren’t in line to become one if they’d just join the right church.
    You need to get serious J/22. Your information comes from a bunch of know nothing false prophets who like nothing better than to speculate out of their own imaginations. After His resurrection Jesus told where to look to find out who He is. Read the end of the Gospel according to Luke.
    No, it just won’t due for men to make up a new Jesus based on nothing but blue sky speculation and then for you to come along and claim that it’s all the same.
    You need to become a serious student of the Christian faith J/22 and stop depending on the fairy tales spun by Mormon leaders.
    I challenge you to get serious and get some independence and start looking to sources other than the Utah Mormon sect of Mormonism.

  24. Mike R says:

    Jarron21, you are not understanding what has been said to you from those here , and your
    comments above bear that out . Please focus on this : Is it what Mormon leaders have taught
    about God that we evaluate in light of scripture , or what they have’nt taught ? You’re concerned
    with what matters , so are we , and so was Jesus that’s why He warned you and me and everyone
    today to beware of false prophets in the latter days . Why would He do this ? Do you think that
    perhaps it is crucial that we not be deceived by false teachings ? Why did Paul warn about those
    coming after he was gone who would introduce false teachings about Jesus/God and also
    salvation—2Cor 11:4 ; Gal 1:8 ? Does it really matter what you believe about Jesus ? You
    seem confused on this issue , you seem to think that because Mormons are good people
    ( they are) that if they just believe in “a Jesus” then that’s all that matters . Now your leaders
    have claimed to have the true gospel and the truth about Jesus , others have a corrupted view
    of God /Jesus and their corrupted false belief will be spiritually harmful if not repented of etc.
    I personaly know of sincere people who believe that Jesus is not God , and that He did not rise
    from the dead , yet they are some of the most moral people there is . You really need to do the
    right thing and test your leaders doctrinal revealments about Jesus —1 Jn 4:1 . Why ? Because
    false prophets ( who can be moral men) will be plentyful in the latter days —Matt 24:11 .
    The fact that the Bible records the fate of those who follow prophets who teach aberrant doctrine
    about Jesus can end up losing out on eternal life is such a clear warning that even your own
    leaders agree with that fact , so this is not something that we have invented because you think
    we don’t like Mormons , far from it . We warn you because we care . Jesus cared . Mark13:22-23.
    It seems that rather than face what your leaders have taught about God and test that against
    the scriptures ( Acts 17:11 ) you instead simply are going to believe only what is comfortable
    to you , as long as you just believe in ” a Jesus ” all is well , right ? You are accountable to see
    what your leaders have taught since you have chosen to submit to them . IF they have taught
    false doctrine about God/Jesus then if you don’t dismiss them YOU are ALSO in great danger —
    —Isa 9:16 .
    The good news is : complete forgiveness and a relationship with God resulting in receiving
    eternal life in heaven with Him and the fullest of blessing therein is available outside of
    Mormonism .
    Take care.

  25. falcon says:

    Sorry about getting your number wrong in the body of my post above.

    This is what your former prophet GBH had to say on the subject of the Mormon Jesus:

    “In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).
    From the same source as the above quote:
    In Mormonism, Jesus is a creation, the product of relations between god and his goddess wife who used to be people from another world (McConkie, Bruce, Mormon Doctrine, p. 192, 321, 516, 589). Jesus is the literal spirit brother of the devil and of you and I (McConkie, p. 192, 589). Also, in Mormon theology, God has a body of flesh and bones (Doctrine & Covenants 130:22) as does his wife and together they produce spirit offspring in heaven who inhabit human bodies on earth.
    Very few, if any, of the ‘different’ Mormon doctrines are found in their Standard Works: the Bible, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price. Rather, they are taught by Mormons of high standing: prophets, apostles, members of the 70 Quorum. McConkie, for example, was a member of the 70’s Quorum, a very high ranking Mormon and wrote the book, Mormon Doctrine, from which much of the documentation for this is taken.

    So it’s important J/21 to get who Jesus is right. It’s also important to consider the source of your information. There are lots of Jesus’ out there including that He was an “ascending master”. Belief in such a Jesus won’t get someone saved no matter how sincere, devout and good meaning a person is.

  26. Old man says:


    If you need to ask how God or Christ came to be then you don’t really understand who or what God is. Joseph Smith invented a god because then he could claim to have been appointed by that god. Unfortunately Smith was murdered before the extent of his deception became widespread & he was turned into a martyr by his successors in order to advance the claims of the LDS. Few people will follow a liar but many will follow a martyr. So, having established the church the deception had to continue & has continued right up to the present day. What does this have to do with God you may ask, well, it has a lot to do with belief in a non-existent god. Almost everything I see written in here by members of the LDS describe a god with a human nature & from that belief springs the question about how your god came to be. Atheists will ask similar questions along the lines of ‘so if God created everything who created God’? They ask questions like that because the only god they can conceive of is modelled on human lines. That should sound familiar to you because Mormons believe much the same about their god.
    Christians however don’t ask questions like that; they accept that God is God, a being who, as Brewed put it, exists outside of time & space. In short, our human minds cannot encompass Him so we don’t even try.
    Jarron, why not learn about Christianity from Christians? Many Mormons have come in here trying to show how we are wrong but all have failed & they will continue to fail. The teachings of false prophets cannot stand for long against the truth of Gods word. Why not do as Falcon suggests, & I mean this in all sincerity,
    “I challenge you to get serious and get some independence and start looking to sources other than the Utah Mormon sect of Mormonism.”
    What do you have to lose apart from the chains of the LDS Corporation?

  27. Kate says:

    “So how can the church today, claim that these men teach opinion, speculation and folklore? Ask your Mormon friends how this can be!”

    Here’s the thing. I grew up believing every prophet spoke scripture and all of their teachings and revelations are true. Unfortunately I wasn’t aware of a lot of them. I had heard of the Adam/God doctrine and when I was researching all of that I had a conversation with my devout LDS Mother. It was sad because she knew about the doctrine and all she could say was that she didn’t know why God revealed that to Brigham Young at that time, and then up went a wall and she said she just has faith as a little child. She didn’t want to discuss the problems with it. Most Mormons I know do not study anything but are spoon fed from church manuals and general conference. They are clueless as to what past leaders and prophets have taught or revealed. This is what I have run into.

    You are right, one minute the Journal of Discourses (or other sources) can’t be trusted or used because it’s just opinion or folklore and the next minute Mormons use them to try and prove their doctrines. Talk about confusion. If all of these men from Joseph Smith to Thomas Monson were truly prophets of God, then everything they taught would line up. Each new prophet should accept the teachings and revelations of the prophets before them and build on what those prophets revealed. Instead past leaders and prophets are thrown under the bus as nothing but crazy Uncles, and their teachings and claimed revelations from God are demoted to nothing but speculation or folklore. The thing that angers me about this is that thousands of people believed and followed all of these prophets. They believed what was said behind the pulpit. They lived their lives believing wholeheartedly what these past leaders and prophets taught and revealed. Current Mormons are slapping these people in the face. It’s disrespectful. Do Mormons believe that the people who followed Brigham Young and his Adam/God doctrine were led astray? Those people died believing Adam is God. What happened to them? Are they in Heaven? I think sometimes in our back and forth with Mormons we all forget that these were real people who suffered through some of this stuff like polygamy and blood atonement.

    Those of us outside of Mormonism take Mormon prophets and leaders more seriously than those who claim they are Mormon. We take their prophets at their word and this is a real problem for Mormons. I don’t know how anyone can remain in Mormonism yet deny revelations given by their prophets.

    Thanks for the information I enjoyed reading it.

  28. Jarron21 says:

    @ Everyone here

    I think that people on here are picturing me as some kid from Provo who has only been to an LDS church. Just so you know I am from Dallas, TX. the bible belt. I have gone to many different christian churches ( and some non-christian). When I attend these places they are pretty good. One reason I really enjoy their services is because its only 1 hour ! jk. But there are things that I do not really like. Paid Clergy is one of them.

    “I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel.
    Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
    I ave shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.”-Acts 20:33-35

    Other references :1 Corinthians 9:18, Acts 8:18-20, John 10:11-13, Matthew 10:8

    Other things I do not like are that I can go to two baptist churches in the same city and learn different doctrines. How does that make sense? there is no Unity . I know Non-denominational Christians in My immediate family who have told me that Jesus and God are seperate beings, then others tell me they are 1 in the same.

    1 more thing that I dislike is that every christian sect can be traced back to the catholic church. the catholic church claims priesthood authority, no other christian sect claims this.

    How can 300+ sects all be right when they teach different things.

  29. rvales says:

    Why does it bother you when clergy are paid?

  30. Kate says:


    LDS leaders are paid and paid quite well I may add. Mission Presidents are also paid from tithing money. We discussed this not long ago here on Mormon Coffee. So does it bother you that your church requires one tenth from all of it’s members including the members who are destitute, then they turn around and take a portion of tithing for payment? Members are scraping to feed their children while your leaders are flying around in a private jet, wearing a thousand dollar suit and living in a lavish home on tithing money. Yep, LDS leaders are paid clergy. Why pay the bishops and stake presidents (the work horses of the religion) when you can convince them to do it for free?

  31. jaxi says:


    I’m sorry but I have to correct some of your statements.

    “Other things I do not like are that I can go to two baptist churches in the same city and learn different doctrines. How does that make sense? there is no Unity . ”

    If you are talking about complete unity of doctrine. Eastern Orthodoxy is extremely unified. Even across cultural and language barriers. I would also say traditional Christian faiths are extremely unified on the fundamentals, such as the nature and purpose of God. If a member is teaching the Trinity wrong, that is a weakness by the person teaching it, not in the unity of the Chrsitian faith.

    “1 more thing that I dislike is that every christian sect can be traced back to the catholic church. the catholic church claims priesthood authority, no other christian sect claims this.”

    This is also incorrect. Coptic and Eastern Orthodoxy does not trace itself back to Roman Catholism. All make the same claims. The priesthood in Mormonism is radically different in function and set up than the priesthood that is claimed by the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches. It’s another one of those words Mormons use that have a completely different definition from the traditional faith.

    “How can 300+ sects all be right when they teach different things.”

    Christ being the one and only way to salvation is taught the same in all traditional Christian Churches. I think it’s been demonstrated by a few here that there are many sects of Mormonism as well. Mormonism isn’t so unified either. Pot calling the kettle black.

    All I am hearing from you is a bunch of complaining about things you don’t like. A lot of whining really. Christianity has its problems. No one is going to claim that the body of Christ at this moment is perfect. But what we have here is Mormonism, teaching a completely different God and a different way to salvation and trying to call itself Chrsitian. How does Christianity not being perfect make Mormonism right or true? What I am reading between the lines in your post is, “I just like Mormonism better.” Liking a lie better than the truth doesn’t take away that its a lie.

  32. rvales says:

    1 Timothy 5:17-18
    Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” And in another place, “Those who work deserve their pay!” (NLT)

    1 Corinthians 9:14
    In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it.

    1 Corinthians 9:14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

    Matthew 10:8-11
    Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. (This, and your Acts 8 reference) are talking about charging people for salvation, healing, God’s grace. These things are given freely, no one has to ‘pay’ to QUALIFY for salvation.
    9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff (they are told NOT to take supplies and provisions with them), for the worker is worth his keep (because they will be provided for by the people in the town they are in). 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave.

    Why shouldn’t clergy be paid? (our church has both paid and unpaid clergy) I agree that church leadership should not be getting rich off the church. But if they are devoted to full time leadership and pastoring shouldn’t their needs be met? The scriptures above seem to imply that they should. Paul chose to continue working for his living and was able to do so but he did not condemn those who were supported by the local congregation.

    300+ sects can’t be right. And some are wrong to the point of heresy, some are just different (since this blog is about Mormon doctrine it makes sense that other heretical ‘denominations’ are not discussed but I’m sure that the Christians here would not hesitate to admonish those false teachers as well). There are “close handed” issues (issues that can not vary or be disagreed on) such as the importance and trustworthiness of the Bible, the nature of the Godhead, or the confession that man is a sinner and that Christ’s death and resurrection are the only things that can make man blameless and holy in God’s sight) and “open handed” issues (such as having the occasional glass of wine or women’s role in the church or should their be an electric guitar in the worship band or not) Issues that affect one’s salvation are close handed and must be in line with the Bible, if they are not then that church is wrong completely.

    I don’t completely understand your issue about the tracing back to the Catholic church.

  33. Rick B says:

    I had to laugh when you started complaning about different Christian churchs. First off, if you ask an lds teacher they will claim to be Christian. So what ever you hear them teach differs from all the other Christian churchs. Yet you dont have a problem with the lds teaching something different. Then also lets remember all the lds denomanations and how they cannot agree, again you dont seem to bothered by that.

  34. Mike R says:

    Jarron21, unfortunately you are content to sidestep what was just explained to you in the last
    several posts by others here . ” Paid clergy” ? really ? Why don’t you call your apostles in S.L.C.
    Utah and ask them what they receive ? As officers who head a multi-billion dollar empire I’m
    sure they are well compensated for . You seem to be stuck on those “300+ sects” . I know of
    people in the church I attend that have trouble finding Galatians in the Bible should I take that
    as a indicator that there are so many opinions that therefore no one is correct? It’s the Pastor’s
    role that correct doctrine is taught , whether all or none receive his teaching is irrelavent . Your
    friends opinions about Jesus are to be measured against the Bible. That is the written standard .
    The Bible has been called the bedrock of the Christianity , I agree . Your beliefs about Jesus
    need to be taken from it , and the teachings of those you believe to be apostles today likewise
    are to conform with what the Bible’s prophets/apostles taught , that’s where we start .
    One last thing, I have been to many other churches and I have taken the time to look at their
    doctrinal statements . It’s amazing how many agree on the fundamentals .
    If you think that having a prophet , one man at the top type of arrangement like the Mormon
    church advertises , is a guarentee against people forming different beliefs or forming other
    “sects” , you simply are naive . Mormonism has provided no safety from this .
    You seem to want to get the cart before the horse because you need to first test your prophets
    in lieu of Matt 24:11 . If Mormon prophets have failed to be consistently trustworthy in their
    teachings about God , then dismiss them . God is still there . He is still available to anyone who
    is leary of being deceived by prophets today . Look into His Word at Jesus , it’s all about Him ,
    not one of the many prophets of these latter days vying for our attention . So start there .

  35. MistakenTestimony says:

    Jaxi’s right, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East—these aren’t traced back to the Rome. If I represented the eastern churches I would be highly offended at that common stereotype. Here is something of note though, do you know what the eastern and western churches do trace back to? Jesus, and the Twelve Apostles. The body of Christ has been growing and filling the world from the work of Christ on the cross to this day. The Mormon church believes that the body of Christ has been decapitated and laying dead as a rotting carcass for near millennia and has only only recently emerged as a pseudo-zombie with a mere Prophet—not Christ—to lead it? I may claim that I can do something as bombastic as the ability to fly but you don’t the burden of proof that I can’t, I bear the burden that I can. What an utterly incompetent God the Mormons serve. That definitely sounds like the false prophet stuff Jesus warned His church about. There is still time to repent.

  36. falcon says:

    I must admit. I don’t have a clue where you are coming from. You’re all over the map zigging and zagging here and there jumping from one topic to another.
    It’s all about Jesus and who He is and what He did for us on the cross.
    Personally, I don’t care one bit about what this or that denomination is all about. You’re just avoiding the main and central issue.
    Who is Jesus? Where do you stand with Him?
    Actually you sound like me prior to 1972. At some point in time you’re going to run out of your issues, which respectfully I’ll tell you, are pretty lame and simply a way of avoiding what you need to be attending to.
    It’s not about a religion, a denomination, a sect or whatever. It’s about Jesus.
    Here’s a newsflash for you. God’s not that interested in what Christian church anyone of us attends. What he’s interested in is our relationship with Him. That’s it!
    Until you stop all this shucking and jiving and dancing around the real issue, you’re going to be lost.

  37. falcon says:

    I spend an entire post proving to you that the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of orthodox Christianity and what do you come back with?
    You don’t like paid clergy.
    Come on man. Get with the program. That is beyond lame.
    If you think I’m going to waste my time discussing paid clergy while people are going spiritual lost……………………….
    How would answering that question get you any closer to Christ? It wouldn’t.
    Somebody will answer that and you’ll come up with something equally as inane.
    You do sound like some high school kid from Provo.

  38. Clyde6070 says:

    Old man(4:01 am)
    You haven’t really accepted Christ into your heart, to me this is a general cop out. It is something that can be thrown out when someone does not see things your way. It is a piece of the puzzle of life that someone can tell somebody that You haven’t really accepted Christ into your heart. Even when a person has an idea that the person saying it maybe hasn’t really accepted Christ into his heart.
    I have one big question. Have Bill and Eric ever found a quote from a mormon source that might help them with an understanding of God?

  39. Jarron21 says:

    @ falcon
    I apologize for changing the subject. The questions that I ask are real though, I am not tying to offend anyone.

    @ jaxi
    Thank you for clearing that up for me.
    I learn something new everyday.

  40. Mike R says:

    Clyde, remember what you once said about your posting at such later hours ? You said
    that since you were up so late (and tired) that perhaps what you post may not make a lot of
    sense , or something to that effect . Guess what ? What you just said does’nt make much sense .
    Now I can agree that we need to be careful on making ultimate judgments on others , but
    as for your ” it’s a piece of the puzzle of life ” quip , what in the world does that mean ?
    You asked about Bill and Eric , if you want to know what they have found why don’t
    you simply ask them ?
    Clyde, get some sleep 🙂

  41. Old man says:

    You said this in response to what I said to Jarron
    “You haven’t really accepted Christ into your heart, to me this is a general cop out. It is something that can be thrown out when someone does not see things your way. It is a piece of the puzzle of life that someone can tell somebody that You haven’t really accepted Christ into your heart. Even when a person has an idea that the person saying it maybe hasn’t really accepted Christ into his heart.”

    As always when I say something that upsets members of the Corporation they come back with a twisted version of what I said. Rather than being selective why not quote what I said in full? Could it be that the full version is accurate?

    Here’s it is
    Jarron21 asked this
    “Tell me this though, If I have Accepted The Sacrafice of Jesus Christ, and accepted him into my heart, how then can I go to hell?”

    This was my response IN FULL.
    “The most direct answer to that question is, & I say this to all Mormons reading here. You haven’t really accepted Christ into your heart, those words are meaningful when used by Christians but have little meaning when used by Mormons. I have explained why this is so several times now but I’ll try once more.
    Christians accept Christ’s finished work of redemption; simply put they believe that Christ’s sacrifice was enough & need add nothing to it. Mormons on the other hand try to introduce Old Testament practices into the New Testament & as I said before, you CANNOT do that. Well, you can but don’t expect your beliefs to be acknowledged by God.
    Jarron, you must choose to live by faith or live by the law, it’s your choice.”

    Far from being a ‘cop out’ or something I threw out because Jarron didn’t agree with me (the question of agreement never arose as I was answering his query) the above is an explanation of why Mormons do not know the real Christ. If they did & if they were really Christians they wouldn’t be trying to live by the law while claiming Christ to be the author of their faith Hebrews 12:2
    If they really knew Christ & had accepted him into their hearts as their saviour they would also know that Christ has said this in John 3:16 John 14:6 & Paul has said this in Romans 4:14 Romans 7:5-6 Colossians 2:13-14
    As for your Implication (I think) that I have not accepted Christ into my heart, you’re free to think what you wish. People in here knows me only through the things I have said & they must judge me as they wish, any claims I make concerning myself would be meaningless.

  42. falcon says:

    Old Man,
    You have to give clyde a pass………maybe.
    We are dealing with cross-cultural communication here and not just because you are from England and we are separated by a common language.
    No it’s more to do with spiritual understanding. I read your answer above and I get it. It’s clear, cogent, to the point but it contains spiritual truths that the natural man cannot comprehend. Remember in John chapter 3 when Nicodemus came to Jesus, in the night. Nic had no idea of the spiritual truth Jesus was explaining to him.
    Clyde’s brain is full of Mormonism. Former Mormon Jack Garcia told me it took him five years to get all of the Mormonism (completely) out of his brain.

    Start in the middle and work your way to the outside.
    Who is Jesus? Period! Nothing else matters until you come to that knowledge. Drop everything else. You’re bleeding. You’re going terminal. Your first action should be to stop the bleeding not to contemplate what type of tooth paste you should brush with.
    Do you get my point?
    Believe me, once you know who Jesus is and what He has done for you and accept Him by faith; what preachers get paid or what two different Baptist churches teach will melt away as insignificant because they are (insignificant).

  43. MistakenTestimony says:


    Your post was the first thing I read on here that made me wonder, “what did he just say?” It wasn’t highly spiritual and not even my Old Adam could understand it. :/

  44. Brewed says:

    I remember using those same arguments to remain an atheist.

    Give up the fight and get to know Jesus.
    Everything begins to look different through the lens of Christ.

    “I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see”.
    There is so much truth to that. I am just floored at how confusing and frustrating anything church related was until I came to Jesus. The holy spirit is real, God’s word is trust worthy, and Jesus is very much ALIVE.

    My favorite quote is by C.S.Lewis. “I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”

    You’ve got all these things you have put in the way of coming to Jesus. Get them out of the way and just get to know him.
    Start with his words if you have to.

  45. Jarron21 says:

    I have already accepted Jesus into my life. But y’all say it does not count because somehow the Jesus I read about in the Bible is different then the Jesus you read about in the Bible. Does anyone see where i’m coming from here? I know some of you have explained why you feel he is not the same Jesus, But to me the most important thing is the Atonement. “Works” cannot save you by any means, But faith without works is dead as it states in James 2:14-26.

  46. cattyjane says:

    You kinda floored me when you said that you were an atheist and that religion was really confusing to you when you were an atheist. Can you expand on that?
    (I guess the reason I ask is because thats how I feel. I feel like every time I think I have a belief in something than something comes along to.poke holes in it.)
    When you were atheist were you looking into organized religion at the same time? And if you didnt get your questions answered before you believed in Jesus then how did you believe?

  47. falcon says:

    OK let’s take a run at this again.
    Tell me who the Jesus is that you have accepted and explain to me what you mean when you say “atonement”. Now look, I don’t want some skirt the issue, cutesy Mormon evasive answer. I expect an honest, straight-forward answer or don’t bother.
    When I talk about Jesus I’m talking about some very specific features and characteristics.
    Now if you tell me the Jesus you are referring to is the spirit off-spring of one of the pantheon of Mormon gods and one of his many plural wives than I need to tell you, that Jesus cannot save you. If you tell me the atonement is an asset that you appropriate after you’ve done all of the necessary work to become a god but fall a little short I say, wrong answer.
    See this is why Christians say that Mormons are dishonest. It’s because you are basically insisting that it’s all the same and it isn’t. I posted what one of the Mormon prophets said directly that the Mormon god is not the God of Christianity. So one of us has it all wrong and the one that has it wrong is spiritually lost.
    You need to process this. But please, don’t say it’s all the same. If asked you need to say, “The Jesus I believe in and the God I believe in are not what orthodox Christians believe. My god is one of many gods who use to be sinful men but who, by obedience to the Mormon system, became gods. Jesus is the spirit off spring”…………..you get it.
    As far as the “atonement” you need to say that Christians believe that they are separated from God because of their sin. Jesus death and the shedding of His blood on the cross atoned for, paid the debt for that sin. The blood of the cross is applied to the sin of the one who accepts Jesus’ sacrifice through faith.”
    Then you can say what Mormons believe about become gods, the works they must do to become gods, etc. The point is you need to be forthright and honest and not try to make it all sound the same.

  48. rvales says:


    I think the issue comes in when you are looking into religions instead of the Bible. You can’t know which religion is right unless you know the Bible. God’s word is his standard of truth to messure everything, person, and religion against.

  49. falcon says:

    This thread is all about the research MRM does regarding Mormonism. From one of the articles:
    “Following one of our outreaches at the LDS “Jesus the Christ” pageant in Mesa, Arizona, I overheard a young Mormon girl complain to her friend how one of the Christians tracting the event had said that the Jesus of Mormonism was not the Jesus of the Bible. She was overtaken by such a statement, incredulous that such a comment could be made. “How can that be?” she said. “There is only one Jesus!” It would seem reasonable that if the one to whom Mormons call “the Savior” is in fact the Savior of Scripture, it should be easy to take what the Bible has to say about Jesus and then compare this with what Mormons leaders have said. Logic would demand that the two descriptions should parallel. However, this is where the problem lies.”


    Here’s another one.

    “You might think that the Mormon people celebrate Christmas like a good Christian denomination would. But a doctrinal issue broods over the Mormon people, a historic issue that prevents many Mormons from appreciating the Christian meaning of Christmas. Indeed, it is an issue that prevents many Mormons from having a saving relationship with the real Jesus Christ. Just who is that Jesus in the manger? How was he conceived? And what kind of salvation does he freely offer to those who want eternal life and the forgiveness of sins?”

    If you’re really serious, go and read these two articles and then tell me if you still think that the Mormon Jesus and the Jesus of orthodox Christianity are the same. This is the most important question you can answer for yourself. That is, who is Jesus?

  50. cattyjane says:

    Oh my goodness! I just read that first article about the blood of christ not being able to atone for certain sin. I have heard that murder and suicide are unforgiveable but I have never heard that my blood would have to be shed to.atone for those sins. That makes no sense! If that was true that would mean that my blood would have to be more pure or holy than christs blood because I would be atoning for sins he could not right?

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