On March 4th 2013 the U.S. Tax Court ruled that Mormon plaintiff George Thompson would not be allowed to consider his church tithe a “necessary expense” in regards to paying back taxes owed to the government. Mr. Thompson owes $883,000 in back taxes, which he intends to pay, over time. In deciding how much Mr. Thompson could pay per month toward this debt, the IRS looked at his income and expenses, determining that he could afford $8389 – if he did not pay his tithing. Mr. Thompson argued that his $2110 monthly tithe was a “necessary expense” and should therefore lower the amount of his monthly debt payment. But he didn’t convince the court, so his request was denied. (Find a pdf document of the court’s decision here.)
In the course of the case, Mr. Thompson cited the “necessary expense” rule — with a twist. The rule states that a necessary expense must either provide for the taxpayer’s health and welfare or the production of income. Mr. Thompson argued that paying tithing was necessary for his spiritual health and welfare.
How so? asked the court.
Mr. Thompson is a temple shift coordinator and stake scouting coordinator in the Mormon Church. He told the IRS that if he didn’t pay his tithing he would no longer be allowed to hold these callings, citing a letter from his bishop that informed him that if he didn’t pay his tithing he’d have to resign his Church positions. The court had little sympathy for this, saying callings are regulated by the Church and revocation of callings is solely a Church decision, unrelated to the interests of the Commissioner of Internal Revenue. (See here and here for more background on Mr. Thompson’s case.)
Mr. Thompson provided very little evidence to support his claim that paying tithing was necessary for his spiritual health and welfare, and the Tax Court seems justified in rejecting his claim. But that doesn’t change Mr. Thompson’s conviction that paying tithing to the Mormon Church is necessary for his spiritual well-being. What does he believe will happen to him, spiritually speaking, if he doesn’t pay his tithing?
Though the LDS Church Handbook of Instructions (2010) says members should expect nothing other than “the Lord’s blessings” from tithing (Handbook 1, p. 128), Mormon Scripture is rather more pointed:
“Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.” (D&C 64:23, 24)
This sounds serious, as does this statement from past LDS President Joseph F. Smith:
“He [God] has said that those who will not observe it [tithing] are not worthy of an inheritance in Zion.” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 277).
In Mormonism, paying tithing is an important part of living a “celestial law.” And living the whole celestial law is necessary for spending eternity in God’s presence, in the celestial kingdom. Bill McKeever wrote of this,
“Another important aspect of celestial law is participation in the temple endowment ceremony. But herein lies the catch. In order to enter an LDS temple, it is necessary to obtain a temple recommend. A recommend is granted only when the Mormon has been found faithful in numerous categories, including tithe-paying. If a Mormon does not pay his tithes, he cannot get a recommend. If he cannot get a recommend, he cannot go to the temple. If he cannot go to the temple, he cannot go to the celestial kingdom; hence he receives damnation in the next life.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, another past Mormon President, quoted yet another past Mormon President to explain that anything less than a full 10% tithe was the same as no tithe at all.
“He has said that the man who fails to pay his tithing shall have no place among the people of God. Yet here are these Temples erected by the sacrifice of the poor, and to give recommends to parties who pay little or no tithing, how can you feel to take this responsibility? I could not. Part of a tithing is not tithing at all in the eyes of the law that the Lord has revealed.” (Joseph Fielding Smith quoting Lorenzo Snow, Conference Reports, April 1940, 97).
In June 2011 Henry Eyring of the Mormon Church’s First Presidency wrote,
“To receive the gift of living with Him forever in families in the celestial kingdom, we must be able to live the laws of that kingdom (see D&C 88:22). He has given us commandments in this life to develop that capacity. The law of tithing is one of those preparatory commandments.” (“The Blessings of Tithing,” Ensign, June 2011, 4-5)
To sum up, Mr. Thompson’s church says (or implies) that one who fails to pay a full 10% tithe to the Mormon Church will be:
- Burned at Christ’s coming
- Deemed unworthy of an inheritance in Zion
- Unable to hold a temple recommend
- Designated a breaker of God’s law
- Without a place among the people of God
- Denied the eternal gift of living with God and family forever
According to past LDS Authority Bruce McConkie, this all amounts to “damnation” (Mormon Doctrine, 177).
If Mr. Thompson had told the court that neglecting his tithing would result in his eternal damnation the IRS might have had sympathy for his plight and agreed that, for a Mormon, tithing is indeed a necessary expense.
“Each one must give as he has decided in his heart,
not reluctantly or under compulsion,
for God loves a cheerful giver.”
(2 Corinthians 9:7)
Shem
From the very start of this topic I have been talking about the Law of tithing, it is you who chose to expand what I said into other areas because you could not support the LDS stance without so doing. Your organization constantly uses quotes from the Law of Tithing to support it’s own false tithe. For example, the use of Malachi 3:10 used to promote false tithing through fear or guilt. Who was when Malachi addressing? He was addressing the Hebrew nation not gentiles. I said to Ocean & now I say the same to you, if you choose to live by the law then live by all of the law, not just the parts that best suit your agenda. Don’t introduce into your argument scripture that has nothing to do with the Law of tithing & try to understand that the tithing obligation ended when the Temple was destroyed. Unless your leaders are practising Jews, unless they can show that they belong to the tribe of Levi & are descended from Aaron then they cannot collect tithes. That is a scriptural fact & if it were not so then Jews would still practice Tithing.
From the way you word your arguments one would think that the reason food was used in the tithe was because the Jews never used money. The reason money wasn’t used, was not because it was an agricultural society & the Jews didn’t use it, but because that’s the way God wanted it to be. What you say is just another example of the way apologists for the LDS camouflage their lack of answers to criticism.
You tell us that a tithe is needed for things like Temple upkeep or construction, that’s a totally false understanding of the tithe. The tithe was NEVER used for that, there was a Temple tax that covered temple maintenance. So, if you are so keen to quote from the Law of Tithing & to follow Old Testament Law then why don’t you ‘restore’ a temple tax? Why not, while you’re about it, ‘restore’ stoning or the law of sacrifice? After all you’re the ones who claim to be descended from Jews. The truth is that what you actually offer in your arguments isn’t sound hermeneutics at all, it’s yet another example of the ‘restoration’ theology practiced by the LDS. The restoration of the Gospel was not needed, even though your false prophet said it was & likewise with the law of tithing, there was nothing to restore as the reason for its existence had long since passed. Incidentally, why doesn’t the LDS have a sabbatical every seven years? If your going to tithe then you might as well do it properly, have a rest from tithing every seventh year just as God commanded.
If, after this, you still insist that Tithing is the Christian way & is expected by God stop quoting passages from the Old Covenant & show me where in the New covenant the doctrine is to be found. Don’t you realise that the reason it’s called Old is because it doesn’t apply to us? Christians live under the New Covenant.
More Mormon Bubble talk. In 1996, Mormon Apostle Boyd K. Packer explained,
The word regulation, means
The Apostle Paul wrote:
He then added,
I would like to add, that I’m not condemning the fruits of living by the principles of the Word of Wisdom. It is good advice. But that is all. It is not justified as a commandment or regulation, or as a basis of one’s ‘worthiness’, and nowhere under the New Covenant is this supported. Regulations and Oaths, (such as the Word of Wisdom and Tithing, or covenants made in Mormon Temples), are according to Paul, “a shadow of the things that were to come” and are no longer binding upon us, because “the reality…is found in Christ”. According to Paul, there is a better way, a way that is not compelled, or forced, and it “is found in Christ.”
This same argument applies to tithing and all FORCED MORMON REGULATIONS. Only in the Mormon Bubble is a FORCED REGULATION “entirely voluntary”.
Actually you missed something very great, and it shows that YOU do not know how to COMPREHEND what you read. Sharon said:
Sharon said LISTED AT LDS.ORG. That was the “current” membership number LISTED AT LDS.ORG. You could NOT clarify, because what she said WAS ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE. It didn’t need your “clarification”. You speculated about what you THOUGHT the membership MIGHT BE, but you of course, WERE WRONG. If you had read with comprehension, you would have known this. Another example of being wrong because you can’t comprehend what you read, but not wanting to admit it, which you do in almost every post.
The problem WE HAVE with many of you Mormons is that you keep SAYING THIS but give not one IOTA of proof that we have done so. Put up or shut up OC. You can say this all you want, but we all know it’s not true because you can’t back up ANYTHING YOU WRITE. But that’s ok, you only make yourself look foolish, and that suits me just fine.
LOL, More Mormon Bubble talk. In fact, I have lots of quotes to prove you are wrong. Here are some:
Once again, the ACTUAL QUOTES of MORMON “PROPHETS” proves that OC is WRONG.
OC,
I think you missed one of my posts that I made to regarding your comments to 3GMarine. you directed me to your comment but I had already commented on it.
You make no sense.
You said, “If you have TRUE Faith in Jesus Christ, would you not obey anything he asked of you.”
You are equating TRUE faith to perfect obedience, not me. When you say TRUE faith is obeying anything it comes off like you are talking about perfect obedience.
Then you say, “That we are fallen and fail to obey at times does not mean we don’t have faith.”
This is a contradiction to your first statement. I was the one trying to demonstrate that because we make mistakes that doesnt mean we don’t have faith.
You keep lecturing me on things that I already believe. It’s like you are trying to paint this traditional Christian looking view of your faith without discussing the unique Mormon teachings. I don’t need lessons on Christianity from you. I am already a Christian. What I am asking you to discuss is the unique Mormon theology.
So, if you can restrict yourself to staying on point, please address the following and stop giving me Christian Sunday School lessons.
I said, “I am talking about measuring ones ability to make covenants with God, which the LDS Church does.” You said,”LDS Church does no such thing.”
You need to stop lying to others and yourself. If you are not “worthy” of entering the LDS temple by LDS standards than you are not able to make the “sacred” covenants of the LDS Church that get you to life with God. So the LDS Church authorities measure or evaluate (pick whatever term you want) your faith or obedience (whichever) and determine whether or not you are able to make those covenants. There is a cut off. You do this and you’re allowed to do that. So if someone shows their faith in God in other ways and is a good person, they are not allowed to complete those “saving ordinances,” which keep them from life with God.
To re bring up the comment that I already commented on, you said “even Non LDS that will be deemed worthy by God to enter the Celestial Kingdom.”
This is completely false. LDS teach that you must have the saving ordinances to go to the Celestial Kingdom. Unless you are referring to temple work for the dead. So people could die non lds and accept their ordinances by proxy and live with God.
so let’s really examine this concept of accepting baptism by proxy.
These people were never LDS, or maybe they were but werent worthy of the temple. So someone else shows the faith and is obedient and does the work for them. What is required of them? Merely that they accept the work. Sounds a little like that “easy believer” stuff that you are so hard on. (side-note, I don’t believe in easy believer stuff either so I don’t want you to go off topic again with another lecture on the Christian faith.)
So let’s continue this line of thought. People that didnt accept, didnt have the chance to accept, or did accept but just never got temple worthy, get a second chance by someone else doing work for them. So by LDS thought, God wants you to do this work for the dead, he needs you to, all those lost souls. Let’s do an extreme hypothetical. (Please don’t tell me that you are not going to address the hypothetical because you don’t think it will happen. What is important is the point of the hypothetical not the reality of it.) Lets pretend that all Mormons decided to stop doing temple work. You don’t even have to really pretend this part because the rate of temple work being done doesn’t even keep up with the world’s death rate. So it’s safe to assume when the LDS millennium comes, there will be lots of temple work to do. Now LDS imagine that is what everyone will be doing for those 1,000 years. Lots and lots of temple work. But let’s pretend that in my extreme hypothetical that no one did it. Well the LDS God wants it done. Christ has a body, so he could do baptisms and other ordinances by proxy. Lets pretend he says, “Nobody is doing it, but all these poor souls need this work done, so I guess I will do it myself.” Well, he obviously would need a few helpers. So John the Baptist chips in. Maybe Mary helps with some of the wedding ordinances and girl endowments. Moses helps bring people through the veil. Peter conducts and gives all the signs and tokens. It takes awhile, but they get all the work done. All this work LDS Christ has to do on top of the atonement just to save everyone and bring them to God, and all those lost souls have to do is accept it.
The truth is, Christ already did all the work to bring us to the Father. What we need to do is accept it, live by faith, and when we do, works will pour out of us. There is no need for incentive to do works. You are right in that we are judged by our works, but only true good works stem from true faith. Salvation and life with God come from Christ alone, and not from an ordinance or an institution.
Jaxi said..
Since when is asking if you would not obey Christ’s commands if you Truly had faith in him an equivocation with perfect obedience? It isn’t … Like the Tithing is equivocated to Faith, yet I never saw anything that suggested that at all. That you make that equivocation I’m beginning to see a pattern on how interpret what people say, which may have to do with how you misunderstand LDS doctrine.
No contradiction at all.. The contradiction is in how your interpreting my question.
I’m not lecturing on your beliefs.. I’m explaining the LDS point of view, if it seems like traditional Christian view in this regard that shouldn’t be too surprising because they are very similar, if not the same. It’s the Antagonist Critics here that try to make them seem different.. Its know is misinformation by the critics in order to paint the LDS faith as something it’s not.
Well now I’m not giving you Christian Sunday school lessons, I was giving you an LDS one.
It doesn’t.. it absolutely doesn’t.. It governs the operation of the Temple and to merit entry you need to go through an interview process.. the person who is doing any measuring is the Interviewee.. It’s a SELF evaluation interview.
Obviously you didn’t read your scriptures. There are many who won’t have even been baptized that will be in the Celestial Kingdom..
Again, its’ an interview, the evaluation is really done by YOU, not the church leader. No one but yourself would prevent you from living the standard the Church sets for entry into the Temple… It’s a SELF evaluation. It’s all about how YOU answer the questions about yourself. Do you get that?
.
I believe the following should answer the above…
In the above, he was asked to live to a standard.. He was good person in so many ways, he just couldn’t do that one thing that Christ asked of him.. He lacked faith.. He went away sorrowful. Who’s fault was it ? Christ or the mans?
Not false at all .. I already commented above.. You need to read your scriptures, and I’m not talking about Proxy’s for the dead either.
Why don’t you stay on point?
It’s off topic, but… Not much is revealed on how exactly one accepts the proxy work. I don’t believe it’s so easy to simply accept the work. I also believe the proxy’s ordinances are more for the living than the dead
I agree, but I think what you misunderstand is that ordinances are simply tests of our faith. If you have true faith then you happily do the ordinances plain and simple.. Do you believe it’s necessary to be baptized? Do you believe it’s necessary to believe and have faith in Christ? What if you were born in China or Persia or somewhere and never really learned about Christ because it never was presented to you.. and you pass away? What say you of your fate? Are you saved?
Here are some actual quotes that say just the opposite:
Wow. That last comment sounds like those prosperity preachers that prey on housewives who watch too much TV. Funny, the person “doing the best he could” just wasn’t good enough for these Mormon Pharisees. What has changed in Mormonism since then? NOTHING. Contrast this with what Paul taught (and Mormon “authorities” can’t seem to wrap their minds around):
And I’ll throw these in for good measure,
Here, Grant contradicts Teasdale and again calls those who don’t pay tithing that MUST get to headquarters, FAITHLESS:
I guess “the windows of heaven” don’t include monetary wealth according to Grant, but isn’t it funny that all of the Mormon “prophets” and “apostles” are wealthy?
This wasn’t about “doing one thing that Christ asked of him”. Jesus said of the man,
Jesus then said (which you forgot to include):
Why did Jesus not just say, follow me and pay your tithing? Probably because the man WAS paying his tithing, because he was keeping the Law of Moses. The man did everything asked of THE LAW. In fact the Rabbis taught you should avoid poverty like the plague. But he didn’t TRUST in JESUS. He TRUSTED IN HIS WEALTH. Did Christ ask this of EVERY MAN? No. When Jesus went to dine with Zacchaeus, it says,
That offering was good enough for Jesus. He didn’t ask him to give it ALL away. But Jesus knew the rich man’s heart. That is why he said what he did. According to Mormonism the man could have followed Jesus and given one tenth of his wealth, and his works would have been enough to get him into the Celestial Kingdom. But Jesus asked for more, because he knew the man coveted his money. (notice Jesus did not mention that commandment because he knew the man was not keeping it in his heart).
It is obvious that the man did not have faith in Jesus, but the point was that he COVETED his MONEY, and his MONEY meant more to him than following Jesus. Why did Jesus not just say, follow me and pay your tithing? Probably because the man WAS paying his tithing, because he was keeping the Law of Moses. This was not about following a “rule” or a “commandment”, it was about what was in the man’s heart, his LOVE of MONEY and not his LOVE for GOD.
OC,
<"Well now I’m not giving you Christian Sunday school lessons, I was giving you an LDS one."
By sharing only the similarities of the LDS faith with Christianity you are not giving me an LDS lesson. Again, you avoid discussing the unique LDS doctrine.
<"It’s a SELF evaluation interview."
Again, another lie. If the bishop doesn't agree with your "self evaluation," he has the power to not give you access to a temple recommend.
<"In the above, he was asked to live to a standard.. He was good person in so many ways, he just couldn’t do that one thing that Christ asked of him.. He lacked faith.. He went away sorrowful. Who’s fault was it ? Christ or the mans?"
I love that you bring this story up. I use it to refute Mormonism. Notice the things that He doesn't tell him to do. Doesn't mention ordinances once.
<"What if you were born in China or Persia or somewhere and never really learned about Christ because it never was presented to you.. and you pass away? What say you of your fate? Are you saved?"
I believe Christ judges men on the light and knowledge given. I don't believe that someone has to do ordinances that have to be accepted by them when they are dead to get them into the top heaven.
<"I don’t believe it’s so easy to simply accept the work. I also believe the proxy’s ordinances are more for the living than the dead."
Please embellish this statement. Why don't you think it will be easier? Why do you think they are more for the living?
<"Why don’t you stay on point?"
I am on point. Tithing is a requirement for temple access, temple access gets LDS the saving ordinances to get to God. The people that don't get those ordinances in their lifetime have the work done for them by proxy in the temple. They have to accept the ordinances. These things are all linked and therefore on topic. You have a tendency to share only LDS teachings that are similar to Christianity. You avoid and barely address discussion on the unique LDS teachings.
<"Not false at all .. I already commented above.. You need to read your scriptures, and I’m not talking about Proxy’s for the dead either."
What scripture do I need to read? I only read the Bible. Im asking you to address LDS theology on who gets to the Celestial Kingdom. Why don't you share the scripture since its YOUR scriptures?
This is statement made by Bednar, "We believe that God’s grace is what ultimately saves us; yet it does not save us without our doing all that we can to live God’s commandments and follow Jesus Christ’s teachings. We do not believe salvation comes by simply confessing belief in Christ as our Savior. Faith, works, ordinances, and grace are all necessary.
You are misrepresenting your church if you are teaching that Mormons teach LDS ordinances aren’t absolutely necessary for life with God. When I was leaving the LDS Church I had a long meeting with my Stake President he said the ordinances are completely necessary and that is why they do the work for the dead. I wonder why you are so confused. Maybe you should ask one of your leaders if ordinances are necessary for the Celestial Kingdom.
Taken from LDS.org
“In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act performed by the authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord.”
Old Man
No, I don’t comment on pointless details. They are only pointless because you have no real desire to discuss the issue outside your narrowly defined limits of the term. My point in bringing them up is that they do have a bearing on the discussion, and in them we see that your narrow limits are not the only way to look at the issue.
Personally, I don’t care what you think tithing is, or what you think it isn’t. That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not the Bible agrees with you, and if you were honest you would admit that it actually does not prove the issue either way.
I believe that the references to Abraham and Jacob speak of a tithe that was just as much a part of the laws of God as anything given to Moses. However, it was a different time and different circumstances, and thus is was handled in a different manner. You can argue all you want that there is no direct evidence for this, but you can’t provide any evidence against it either, other than your statements of opinion that you want to try and pass off as fact. Of course, it is not surprising that the specifics of the law of God are not had in Genesis, as it is a book of History, not a book of law.
Just a few other notes here; [Text snipped by moderators]
Malachi 3: 10 has nothing to do with fear or guilt. It is, instead, a great promise of immeasurable blessings that God is asking us to test his word regarding. “Prove me” he say. “Obey my law and test my promise, and see what glorious blessings I will give you.” Where is the fear? Where is the guilt?
Now, I never said money wasn’t used. I said money was not the measure of income or wealth, because of the economy of the time. A person was judged wealthy if they had large herds and great fields; not if they had a pile of money in the bank. Because of this the tithe was to be paid in animals and other food as that was the measure of income.
Today a person does not measure income and wealth by property. Now it is measured in how much that property is worth in money. A wealthy man is no longer the man who has large herds and great fields, but a man make over $100,000 a year. Our economy has changed, thus changing the measure of income. Because of this change we now pay tithing on money, as it is now what we measure our income by.
Lastly, we are living in the New and Everlasting Covenant. If you want a quote from that just read sections 119 and 120 in the Doctrine and Covenants.
But then, I have a feeling you are talking about the record found in the New Testament. In regards to this tithing is not mentioned. The reason is not that it was not known or a true principle, but because the saints were striving to live the higher law of Consecration (as Oceancoast has pointed out). They had all things in common, which is what the Law of Consecration is. This is also what the saints in this dispensation attempted to do, and failed. Both laws are part of the New Covenant; one being a higher spiritual standard than the other; and God chooses which to require based on the faith of the saints at the time.
Jaxi
I never once equated tithing with faith. OC is right in this. I equated the giving of tithing with faith. The difference being that the first places emphasis on the money, while the second places emphasis on the person giving it.
And no, OC was not lying when he outlined LDS doctrine. He has said some things that I don’t really understand, and he may be wrong. However, he is perfectly right in the fact that many Non-LDS will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom.
Now, your characterization of proxy work for the dead does not accurately portray this doctrine. No one gets a second chance at the Celestial Kingdom. Those Non-LDS who enter are those who never had the chance in this life, and so are given their first chance in the next. I know of a woman who embraced the gospel from the beginning, but two days before she was to be baptized she died in a car accident. I also know that that woman’s soul will sit in exaltation with her husband (who did not die, but was baptized) because her heart was right and she sought diligently to obey.
Speaking of worthiness to enter the Temple and the interview; the Bishop can only challenge your answers if he already knows of something in your past, which, if he was doing his job, he would have spoken to you about long before any temple interview is conducted. What you talk about is not church policy, but is the bad habit of individuals.
But, to illustrate the difference between being temple worthy and being worthy to enter the Celestial Kingdom, let me tell you of a man I know. He is a man who has worked all his life to follow the teachings of God. One of the greatest men I have ever met. However, a few leaders in his home ward grew antagonistic against him and his Bishop disfellowshiped him for no good reason. This resulted in him, for the first time in some fifty years, not being able to take the sacrament or enter the temple, or even use his priesthood to bless his children. He fought it, and later was reinstated. About a year later he was disfellowshipped again when his bishop was called to the Stake Presidency. At this time he was unable to enter the Temple when his youngest son went for the first time to be sealed to his family. These things were painful for him, but he bore them well. Now, he had been found unworthy to enter the Temple; yet I know, and he knew, that he was worthy before God and if he had died while still disfellowshipped he would have been exalted in heaven.
Shem said,
<" No one gets a second chance at the Celestial Kingdom. Those Non-LDS who enter are those who never had the chance in this life, and so are given their first chance in the next."
Thank you for clearing this up. There are SO MANY LDS that I know that do not believe that this is what the Church teaches. This is one of the reasons I left the LDS Church because this teaching is completely false. I keep trying to tell Mormons that the only people that get to live with God are LDS, or people that never heard the gospel. So all the people that have devoted their life to Christ, not believing in Mormonism, are screwed. It's only the people that never had the chance to be Mormon. My mom who is a convert shared the LDS gospel with her family. None of them converted. They believed in Christ and tried to be good and honorable people. She did their work in the temple and is holding onto hope that they will be in the Celestial Kingdom. I keep telling her that that isn't doctrine. Another friend of mine thinks the same thing. Obviously OC is confused on the doctrine. I love Christ. I believe he is God. I worship Him. I devote my life to Him. But in LDS teachings, I get denied life with the Father because I don't believe Joseph Smith. He stands between me and God. I make the point that the LDS Church is destroying women. So many women are depressed and crying over their children. I know lots and lots. People are leaving Mormonism left and right. These women think these children are lost from life with God. I have heard some say it was easier losing a child to death than the child that left the LDS Church. These children aren't necessarily doing bad things, many don't even deny Christ. So I appreciate when someone actually admits to what the LDS Church actually teaches. I play along sometimes with those that insist that those that didn't accept the LDS gospel in this life get a second chance because so many Mormons insists that they do.
Jaxi said..
Not true, I’m not ONLY sharing similarities, I do address the differences, but the differences quite frequently are NOT what you and your fellow critics claim they are.
Here you go .. calling people liars.. What good Christian. It’s not a lie. Yes, the bishop does have the power to not approve the recommend.. But you also have the power to simply adhere to the standard. If the Bishop refuses the recommend wrongfully, then the condemnation is upon him, not you.
I don’t see how this refutes Mormonism at all.. Just because the context didn’t explicitly mention any ordinances doesn’t mean they aren’t relevant. If you notice the story was a lesson , not a prescription for all. The man had great wealth and didn’t have the faith to give it all away .. the last part of Christ instruction was to “Follow him”.. Usually that commences with the ordinance of Baptism as a demonstration of the commitment.
So you don’t believe the ordinance of baptism is required at all? If so then why was Jesus baptized? Why does commission the apostles to go to ALL nations baptizing if it’s not necessary?.. Mind you I do believe it’s not necessary and such is very much LDS doctrine.
The mechanics of how that takes place has not been revealed, and I don’t think it will be easier, for no other reason than it doesn’t make sense that it would be easier.
With regard to the proxies.. It’s a practical impossibility that the church could perform proxy work for all the dead as you pointed out, if your statement is accurate and I don’t know that it is or isn’t, but assuming it is and the death rate exceeds the proxy rate.. we are losing ground. It’s shoveling sand against the tide. Now I know it’s a popular belief in LDS culture (Not doctrine) that during the millennium all the proxies would be done, but I see that is just a cultural belief, no real doctrine to back it up. So, I see the whole proxies system as a means to develop and nurture faith among the living, there may be some benefit to the dead, but that benefit is overshadowed by the benefit it generates for the living.
Everything is interconnected if that’s how you look at it… You have to be born to be baptized, you have to be baptized to even consider having a temple interview.. etc. The principle of paying tithing is just one of the many standards that are held by the church for to gain temple access. Every Church set’s there standards for entry / use of their properties. This is not anything unique to LDS. As I said before, there are differences, but the differences are quite often NOT what you and your fellow critics proclaim them to be.. In that I see a tremendous amount of hypocrisy in the misguided criticisms.
Furthermore, the mechanics of these ordinances in relationship to the those in afterlife has not be revealed. As I said, I believe the proxies are more for the living.
This speaks volumes now doesn’t it.. You profess to that you were LDS and know LDS beliefs but you don’t actually read the LDS Scriptures.. And that you presume the Bible is the only source of knowledge about God is also quite tellling.. LDS don’t see it that way.
And I have answered .. You apparently don’t like the answer since it doesn’t support your antagonistic agenda against LDS beliefs.
They are scriptures to the world, whether or not you accept them is up to you.
As you can see, this is LDS Scripture.. therefore authoritative, not hearsay, and JOD speculations and opinions that many of the critics here like to cite.
It’s quite clear to me from the above that when considering the whole of humanity in relationship to God.. there are many, young children and those who have not or will not hear the Gospel in their lifetime, but God knows them by their hearts and judges ALL men according to their works and the desires of their hearts and they will be heirs of the Celestial kingdom… Jaxi, I think you expressed a similar belief.
No baptism necessary, no Temple endowment etc.. It’s common LDS culture to assume that the Proxies work would be done for these in the Millennium, but nothing actually says that is the fact for all.
Now you probably will quickly site that the LDS Church publishes a list of requirements for Exaltation into the Celestial Kingdom, the first of being “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Second Baptism.. yada yada yada.. ” So you might think how do you reconcile these two concepts.. It’s done quite simply.. Christ gave the ‘great commission’..
So the church is commissioned to preach the gospel, baptizing and teaching observance of ALL (Not some) of what he commanded. There for once you come in contact with the church, you then have heard the Gospel and the rules for observance go into effect..
I think that basically address the rest of your comments with regard to what the Church teaches and admonishes with regard to observance of ordinances. And yet, the LDS scriptures explictly tell us that those who don’t hear the gospel before they die.. (Outside the sphere of influence of the church) there are definitely those who will be in the celestial kingdom .
Shem
You said
“No, I don’t comment on pointless details.”
That is exactly what you do, when you find yourself backed into a corner you will start looking at minutiae rather than the subject under discussion, time after time you have done this, anything that will avoid having to give a direct answer, if that ploy fails then you distort what I say [Text snipped by moderators]
Whether or not Abraham tithed (he didn’t) is not the issue here, the issue is whether LDS tithing is sanctioned or commanded by God. Instead of trying to make me look foolish why don’t you answer my questions? Your leaders claim that you follow the the law of tithing so if you’re going to do that why don’t you follow all the other Laws? Why just tithing? Could it be that there’s no money to be made from the other laws?
You’re right about Malachi, that was a mistake on my part, I should have said Malachi 3:9 not Malachi 3:10 as that is a verse all too often used to instil fear & guilt into those who do not tithe. Nevertheless, my point was that you use passages concerning tithing from the Old Testament to make it appear as if tithing is incumbent upon Christians but as I said above, you’re very selective in which laws you choose to follow. Regarding this selective attitude of the LDS you didn’t answer my question about the sabbatical seventh year, why does your organization not have a rest from tithing in the seventh year? Why doesn’t it tell the members that every third year they can keep the tithe? Deuteronomy 14:28 . This is yet another example of the LDS penchant for selectivity.
“I believe that the references to Abraham and Jacob speak of a tithe that was just as much a part of the laws of God as anything given to Moses. However, it was a different time and different circumstances, and thus is was handled in a different manner. You can argue all you want that there is no direct evidence for this, but you can’t provide any evidence against it either, other than your statements of opinion that you want to try and pass off as fact. Of course, it is not surprising that the specifics of the law of God are not had in Genesis, as it is a book of History, not a book of law.”
Believe what you like but the fact is there was no law of any kind involved with Abraham, he chose to give part of his plunder & please note that what he gave was NOT from his own wealth & therefore cannot be classed as a tithe. Any evidence required is found in Scripture but of course you only accept Scripture when it can be used in support of the LDS. Those things are not my opinions they are facts. You use Genesis to support your argument but when I use the same passage in support of mine you tell me, & I quote “it is not surprising that the specifics of the law of God are not had in Genesis, as it is a book of History, not a book of law.” So, you’re allowed to use Genesis but I’m not.
“Now, I never said money wasn’t used. I said money was not the measure of income or wealth, because of the economy of the time…….Because of this the tithe was to be paid in animals and other food as that was the measure of income.”
I know you didn’t say that & I didn’t claim that you did so stop twisting the facts. My exact words were “From the way you word your arguments one would think that the reason food was used in the tithe was because the Jews never used money.”
MY point was this, it would have been far easier to use money. The person who tithed could redeem his tithe with money & also could give silver in exceptional circumstances read Deuteronomy 14:24-25 so why wasn’t money used? It’s clear from the above that it wasn’t for the reasons you use in your argument.
“Lastly, we are living in the New and Everlasting Covenant. If you want a quote from that just read sections 119 and 120 in the Doctrine and Covenants.”
Why should I read anything from D&C? As I said in another post, most of what you say is based on what I call ‘Restoration theology’ which has no validity for Christians. My source of truth is found in Gods word. If you wish to convince Christians that the tithe is ordained by God then use His word not the words of your leaders!
“But then, I have a feeling you are talking about the record found in the New Testament. In regards to this tithing is not mentioned. The reason is not that it was not known or a true principle, but because the saints were striving to live the higher law of Consecration (as Oceancoast has pointed out). They had all things in common, which is what the Law of Consecration is. This is also what the saints in this dispensation attempted to do, and failed. Both laws are part of the New Covenant; one being a higher spiritual standard than the other; and God chooses which to require based on the faith of the saints at the time.”
At last you agree that tithing is NOT taught in the New Testament. Your so-called Law of consecration has nothing to do with anything as it was dreamed up by a false prophet called Joseph Smith. Presumably you are seeking the support of Acts 4 in this but it is not to be found there, that one instance of sharing everything was due to an exceptional situation that was never to be repeated, until of course your false prophet came on the scene & tried to repeat the Apostles experience. I’m glad you admit that it failed, as that fact alone is enough to show that Smith was a false prophet.
Your organization really should make up it’s mind, either live by the Law or live by Grace but if you choose to have a foot in both camps then don’t expect to be thought of as Christians.
OC,
<"Here you go .. calling people liars.. What good Christian."
Lol, I love the sarcasm here. Because being a Christian means that you can't say someone is lying. Maybe I am wrong that you are lying, whether its intentional or not, you are wrong.
<"So you don’t believe the ordinance of baptism is required at all? If so then why was Jesus baptized? Why does commission the apostles to go to ALL nations baptizing if it’s not necessary?.. Mind you I do believe it’s not necessary and such is very much LDS doctrine."
You believe the ordinance of baptism is not necessary and you are a Mormon? That is hilarious. Oh, OC. And you claim I don't know Mormonism. Again, look at the quotes I put. LDS claim those ordinances are essential for exaltation and only count with LDS authority. That's why they are so concerned with baptism by proxy.
<"So, I see the whole proxies system as a means to develop and nurture faith among the living, there may be some benefit to the dead, but that benefit is overshadowed by the benefit it generates for the living."
You are killing me over here. You don't even know your own faith! I wonder when you finally figure it out, whether you will leave or just become a TBM like Shem and tell me how I am not joined to Christ because Im not Momron. I can't believe you are a make up your own faith Mormon. "So I see" So now Mormons get to interprete their own meanings to the validity of temple work. I love it. Seriously, OC. Go talk to someone with LDS authority, a bishop, stake president, somebody. Ask them if baptism isn't necessary. Ask them if they don't expect to get everyone that didnt recieve an LDS baptism on earth, one by proxy. Im interested in hearing why you think there is the benefit to the living? You can't watch baptism done in the church building? Is it so you can practice the signs and tokens so you can memorize the passwords to get into the top heaven?
<"This speaks volumes now doesn’t it.. You profess to that you were LDS and know LDS beliefs but you don’t actually read the LDS Scriptures.. And that you presume the Bible is the only source of knowledge about God is also quite tellling.. LDS don’t see it that way."
I don't read them anymore. I definitely don't see them as scripture. I believe that there are lots of sources to knowledge about God. I enjoy reading the early Church Fathers as well But I don't believe all those sources are scripture. we weren't talking about sources of knowledge. We were talking about scripture.
Your D and C scripture only talks of those that never heard The Mormon gospel.It's not talking about those that couldn't go to the temple, its not talking about those that left Mormonism like me, it's not talking about my Grandparents who were never Mormons and rejected all of it when my mother converted. It's not talking about any of those people. All those people, according to LDS, don't get life with the father. Baptism by proxy for those that never received it is seen by the LDS Church as absolutely necessary. You are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
Once you figure out that your church teaches that only those that recieve the "saving ordinances," which have to be done by those with the LDS authority, are the only ones that get to be with the Father, you will understand my point. Paying 10 percent of your income to the wealthy LDS organization (not to the poor and needy) is a prerequisite to receiving the saving ordinances that get one exaltation (though not guarenteed) in the LDS belief system. I have faith in God. I believe in His atoneing sacrifice. I accept his grace. I confess my sins. I believe in giving money to my church and to charities. I dont believe that the more obedient and the more faithful I am the more worthy I am. I am never worthy, no matter what I do. I actually believe in following church leaders too. But my church leaders aren't your church leaders. And unless I adhere to your church leaders, and give money to your organization, LDS believe I have no life with God.
Jaxi said..
Well, I’m not wrong, but I accept if you think I am, but lying would require intent to deceive, which there is none.
<"So you don’t believe the ordinance of baptism is required at all? If so then why was Jesus baptized? Why does commission the apostles to go to ALL nations baptizing if it’s not necessary?.. Mind you I do believe it’s not necessary and such is very much LDS doctrine."
To my point.. You obviously didn’t understand my last post to you.. you somehow are off in the weeds with your interpretation. And I even cited the Scripture that backs up my point.
<"So, I see the whole proxies system as a means to develop and nurture faith among the living, there may be some benefit to the dead, but that benefit is overshadowed by the benefit it generates for the living."
I know my own faith Jaxi.. And we don’t need disgruntled ex-mos telling us we don’t know our own faith. I don’t think you know our faith.. You abandoned it for whatever reason, and I’ll cut you the benefit of the doubt you left because you never truly understood it.
I’m not here to judge who is joined to Christ. Obviously LDS belief would consider that you have abandoned Christ’s gospel, for whatever reason.
.
I’m not .. although I see the critics here making up their own ideas of what the Mormon faith is all about.
LOL.. I have discussed this with many Bishops and Stake presidents. None has found any wrong with what I’m saying.. I guess they understand my point, and you simply refuse too.
Jaxi, here you demonstrate how off the mark you are on the purpose of any of the ordinances.. It’s ALL about faith. The benefit for the living is simple.. It’s an work of faith, and thus it builds line up line, precept upon precept of faith for the living. It goes without saying that the standards of lifestyle that one need maintain to go to the temple tends to keep those who go to the temple to do the proxies living a higher standard than those who don’t. That doesn’t make them more “worthy” in the eyes of God, but the odds are in there favor that they will find themselves worthy before God if they hold to those standards.
Well here’s the point.. You are here criticizing LDS beliefs.. Specifically in this instance the belief I mentioned.. yet, you don’t read the LDS scriptures upon which my belief was predicated, so you technically by your own admission are not qualified to render criticism.. You simply don’t know what you’re talking about with regard to LDS beliefs since you don’t even read the LDS scriptures.
You are correct the D&C scripture is addressing that part of humanity that hasn’t heard the Gospel.. Yet they are still part of the human family and apparently Baptism etc is NOT absolutely required for all to enter into the CK. There appears to be an exception to the rule, so the rule must not be absolute in all cases.. And that was the point YOU asked me to expound upon.
And once you understand that the “Church” is under commission by Christ to teach OBSERVERANCE of ALL of the commands.. So although the doctrine my provide that some of God’s children will live a life and return to him without the ‘saving ordinances’.. the Church by virtue of the mandate given in it’s commission teaches that you must observe all the commands.. Yet it is recognized that falling short is part of the human condition, and thus by the Grace of God through Christ atonement you are made perfect.. The only expectation is that you heart be in the right place and you strive to be obedient all that Christ commands. This is what the church was commissioned to teach.. This is all a matter of faith.. As I said once before, if you truly had faith in Christ, and in context of being LDS, his restored gospel, wouldn’t you strive to be obedient to all that he asks? The obvious answer is YES.. and failing to strive to be obedient is nothing more than a manifestation of lack of faith.
OLDMAN,
The term “Tithe”simply means to take 10% of something.. It’s been used in that way since ancient times, even BEFORE the Levitical Law.. If you read your Bible you would know this. Abram paid tithes, Jacob paid tithes.. They all lived long before Moses and any Levitical law. The Ugartic text also shows that the Canaanites used tithes .. The New Testment mentions tithes in a few places.. One place Jesus criticizes the Pharisees for paying tithes but not paying attention other things that they should done without neglecting the former. Some might see that as a NT Validation of tithes.
Tithes have been collected in various cultures and religions since NT times as well.. Orthodox Jews still collect tithes. The point in all this Old Man is that collecting tithes is simply a means of revenue to what ever group is collecting them.. Many Christian churches pass a plate or pouch at services.. I don’t see any precedent in the NT for passing a plate for donations during a sacrament service.
The appeal to Act 4-5, demonstrates quite clearly that the early church was practicing a much higher law of 100% contribution to the church… Although Christians try desperately to SPIN the story of Ananias as not being compulsory that defies commons sense when you read the text.. Ananias never actually lies. He is struck down before he can say anything.. Therefore there must have been a compulsory presumption that he give 100% of the proceeds.. Otherwise where is the lie in holding back a little for himself.?
Now the LDS church has instituted a tithe instead of passing a plate. There is no reason why the mechanics of the tithe need to be EXACTLY as it was used by bronzed aged tent dwellers. Times have changed and the LDS Church professes modern revelation and guidance.
Furthermore, we aren’t here to convince you of anything. LDS do not hold the Bible as God’s FINAL and complete word.. That notion and idea to me is almost laughable because there is so much objective evidence that demonstrates that is a fabricated dogma by Biblical inerrantists.
Oceancoast
“The term “Tithe”simply means to take 10% of something.. It’s been used in that way since ancient times, even BEFORE the Levitical Law.. If you read your Bible you would know this. Abram paid tithes, Jacob paid tithes.. They all lived long before Moses and any Levitical law.”
I’ve been over this several times now & It’s clear to me that you don’t really read anything I’ve said, I’ve already told you that my arguments concern the Law of Tithing, the same law that your organization claims to follow. If you are going to follow the Law of Tithing then don’t use pre-tithing verses to support your stance. I have read my Bible but unlike you & other LDS members I don’t cherry pick verses to support my beliefs. So, one final time, Tithing was NOT practiced by Abraham or by Jacob, yes the word itself does mean 10% I’ve never denied that, but for you & your organization to justify tithing simply on that basis means you do NOT understand what the action of tithing is. Abraham gave 10% to the King of Salem, he didn’t give money he gave ‘plunder’ that does not constitute a tithe because he gave NOTHING of his own.
Jacob did NOT tithe. He offered to give 10% if God gave something to him. These were one off events, so if they’re going to be used as the basis of the LDS law of tithing then perhaps the LDS should apply the same conditions. Why not say to them ‘I’ll give you 10% of something that I’ll take from someone else.’ Or possibly ‘I’ll give you 10% just this one time if you do something for me in return.’
“The New Testment mentions tithes in a few places.. One place Jesus criticizes the Pharisees for paying tithes but not paying attention other things that they should done without neglecting the former. Some might see that as a NT Validation of tithes.”
Some might see it as that but only those who would twist Gods word & remember that the LDS says that tithing is not mentioned in the N/T in connection with Christians. The Pharisees were under the Levitical Law & had to tithe but that could in no way be construed as an example for Christians to follow. Incidentally, did Christ tithe? No he didn’t & I prefer to be guided by Christ rather than Pharisees.
“Orthodox Jews still collect tithes”
Orthodox Jews DO NOT tithe, Jews CANNOT tithe; I’ve explained why in previous posts so again it’s clear that you don’t read what’s being said. Jews cannot tithe because the Temple records were destroyed in AD70. A tithe can only be given to a Levite descended from Aaron & as no one knows who belongs to the tribe of Levi then the tithe CANNOT be given. Some Orthodox Jews give money & they may call tithing but it is not given to the synagogue, they give a percentage of their money to charity & that is NOT Biblical tithing. If you wish to use that as an argument then why doesn’t your organization allow you to do the same?
“The point in all this Old Man is that collecting tithes is simply a means of revenue to what ever group is collecting them”
The point in all this Oceancoast is that tithing was never for revenue. The tithe was for the sustenance of the Levites, the poor, & the stranger. Money for the upkeep & running of the Temple was by means of the Temple tax. How many more times must this be explained?
“The appeal to Act 4-5, demonstrates quite clearly that the early church was practicing a much higher law of 100% contribution to the church… Although Christians try desperately to SPIN the story of Ananias as not being compulsory that defies commons sense when you read the text.. Ananias never actually lies. He is struck down before he can say anything.. Therefore there must have been a compulsory presumption that he give 100% of the proceeds.. Otherwise where is the lie in holding back a little for himself.?”
Has it even occurred to you that Anannias could have told the Apostles that he would give 100% of the proceeds to them & when he laid the money at the Apostles feet Peter knew it wasn’t 100% because the Holy Spirit told him. That explanation is much more reasonable than your fake ‘Law of consecration.’ As I’ve said before your assumption is based on nothing more than confirmation bias. I’m convinced that you simply don’t take in what’s being said
“Now the LDS church has instituted a tithe instead of passing a plate. There is no reason why the mechanics of the tithe need to be EXACTLY as it was used by bronzed aged tent dwellers. Times have changed and the LDS Church professes modern revelation and guidance.”
There is every reason if you insist on using Old Testament passages to support your beliefs. Be that as it may, Grindael has gone into great depth to show you why Tithing is NOT incumbent on Christians & no further explanation is needed from me.
“Furthermore, we aren’t here to convince you of anything.”
Perhaps not but you are here to defend the doctrines of the LDS organization; I’m afraid you’re not doing a very good job at the moment.
Oceancoast
“Now the LDS church has instituted a tithe instead of passing a plate. There is no reason why the mechanics of the tithe need to be EXACTLY as it was used by bronzed aged tent dwellers.”
I forgot to mention, in response to what you said above, the most important point of all & this is it.
The tithe is NOT meant for Christians, you have yet to give me a single example of Christian tithing in the New Covenant. Why do I emphasise the New Covenant? Because that is what Christians live by, Christ fulfilled the law & we are no longer bound by it. There simply is NO acceptable way that the LDS can introduce O/T law into N/T revelation & still claim to be Christians. Don’t try to reason your way out of this dilemma by introducing irrelevant distractions such as ‘the mechanics of the tithe’ that simply won’t work. Why don’t you say we’ll follow the sacrificial law only this time we’ll do it the modern way, we’ll shoot the animals instead of cutting their throats? Perhaps you could ‘restore’ stoning but change the mechanics by sending adulterers to the electric chair.
Face the facts O/c you cannot pick & choose which laws you will live by, live by all & die by them or live by Grace & be saved, it’s your choice.
OC,
<"It goes without saying that the standards of lifestyle that one need maintain to go to the temple tends to keep those who go to the temple to do the proxies living a higher standard than those who don’t."
You continue to make me smile. You think avoiding coffee and tea, paying money to a super wealthy corporation, and sustaining you LDS corp. leaders is a higher standard of living? It's about obedience. Temple recommend questions aren't a "higher standard" of living. I'd like to know why you think so?
I didn't want to do this, but I'm going to have to school you on your faith. Because you are wrong, wrong, wrong if you think Mormonism teaches you don't need baptism.
Quote taken from Packard
"When the Lord was upon the earth He made it very clear that there was one way, and one way only, by which man may be saved. “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6.) To proceed on that way, these two things emerge as being very fixed. First, in His name rests the authority to secure the salvation of mankind. “For there is none other name under heaven given … whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12.) And next, there is an essential ordinance—baptism—standing as a gate through which every soul must pass to obtain eternal life.”
“Strange,” one may say. It is passing strange. It is transcendent and supernal. The very nature of the work testifies that He is our Lord, that baptism is essential, that He taught the truth.
And so the question may be asked, “You mean you are out to provide baptism for all who have ever lived?”
And the answer is simply, “Yes.” For we have been commanded to do so.
“You mean for the entire human family? Why, that is impossible. If the preaching of the gospel to all who are living is a formidable challenge, then the vicarious work for all who have ever lived is impossible indeed.”
To that we say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.”
Quotes from Christofferson
“Because we believe that Jesus Christ is the Redeemer, we also accept His authority to establish the conditions by which we may receive His grace. Otherwise we would not concern ourselves with being baptized for the dead.”
“There are no exceptions granted; none are needed. As many as will believe and be baptized—including by proxy—and endure in faith, shall be saved, “not only those who believed after [Christ] came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came.” 33 It is for this reason that the gospel is preached “also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” 34
“The vicarious ordinances we perform in temples, beginning with baptism, make possible an eternal welding link between generations that fulfills the purpose of the earth’s creation. Without this, “the whole earth would be utterly wasted at [Christ’s] coming.” 37 Elijah has, in fact, come as promised to confer the priesthood power that turns hearts and establishes the welding links between the fathers and the children so that once again what is bound on earth “shall be bound in heaven.” 38 When he came, Elijah declared, “The keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.” 39
We are anxiously about the task of searching out our fathers and mothers of generations past and binding them to us and us to them. Is not this the strongest possible evidence of our conviction that Jesus Christ will come again to reign upon the earth? We know He will, and we know what He expects we will have done in preparation for His return.”
From LDS.org
“Jesus Christ said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). Even Jesus Christ Himself was baptized (see Matthew 3:13–17).
Many people have lived on the earth who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who were not baptized. Others lived without fully understanding the importance of the ordinance of baptism. Still others were baptized, but without proper authority.
Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not damn those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them.”
I could keep going OC. LDS Church teaches that baptism, or baptism by proxy is ABSOLUTELY necessary. The fact that you don’t know this is strange. You made me laugh when you told me you are giving me the benefit of the doubt that I left because I didn’t understand. LDS like to think that ex Mormons left because of that. In the LDS Church you are allowed to believe almost anything you want as long as the conclusion is “I know the Church is true.” They don’t like it when anyone comes up with any conclusions that are critical of the LDS Church. This conversation has been interesting for me because you are actually arguing a concept that is not LDS doctrine. I think you are fibbing about talking to your Church Leaders. Because if you aren’t that is very strange in deed. I guess even the the bishops and stake presidents are practicing feel good Mormonism. Believe what makes you feel right about the LDS CHurch. If they are teaching anything that doesn’t state that LDS baptism is necessary and the temple work is of absolute importance to the dead, than they are teaching against their current LDS Church Leaders. The fact that you won’t even admit that your church teachers that these ordinances are necessary for ALL, dead and alive, shows me you got your head in the sand.
OC,
It’s funny how you say proxy baptism is intended to increase the faith of the member. That was the exact doctrine that got my husband questioning the church.
Way to pull out the whole “you left because you don’t understand” card.
What’s not to understand. The obvious doctrine is enough to raise red flags with any bible believer.
The entire temple ritualizing, ordinanceing, tokening, bible bashing, god making church is enough to turn off any true believer.
We don’t have to stretch or contort LDS doctrine, if anyone needs to do that, it’s you.
I don’t know anyone who has read and believed the Bible first and then became a Mormon, noting the Mormon doctrine to be more correct..
And if Baptism is so important to salvation, why was the thief on the cross told he would be in paradise with Christ? He wasn’t baptized.
Baptism is an outward expression intended to show your new identity as a follower of Christ. It’s not some magic ticket or check on a list you need to mark off to get to be with God. It means you identify with the message.
Popular saying “It is an outward expression of an inward change”.
What is the one thing that keeps us from God?
Sin
What is the one thing that washes sin away once and for all?
Christ’s blood
That’s it.
What Jesus did fixed our relationship with God. Nothing else will add to that or take it away.
The reason being obedient is important is because we love our father and trust that he knows whats best for us. We also want as many people in heaven as possible and God chose us as the vessel for his message.
That means we need to let the holy spirit do a work in us and let the old us die so that others may see God raise cup a new us. So that others may see his goodness and his power in us and believe.
It has nothing to do with us being able to be in God’s presence.
We aren’t working towards anything other than furthering his kingdom.
Once in heaven we can rest in his presence and worship him. Just like we were created to.
What does the LDS church offer that’s better then that?
I for one do not want to be eternally pregnant with spirit babies, working towards godhood.
I want to enjoy my real eternal family and have the joy and complete fulfillment that is God.
Don’t you?! How can anyone really want what the LDS church offers more?
It’s all about work and being “better” to gain something. It’s all about this checklist of righteousness that makes us feel better then others but hollow and unfulfilled.
God wants us to love him and worship him. He doesn’t want us to become him.
The whole premiss of our existence and purpose is different. Everything about our core beliefs are different. Thats why we come here and discuss things with you guys.
Most Mormons have no idea how different our faiths are. Most do not trust the Bible and haven’t even read it. Yet they pour over the BOM over and over and over.
For years the church has resisted being called christian and now they fight tooth and nail to be called christian.
For years they banned blacks from the priesthood and spread racist doctrine. But this is just the mistake of human nature, or God changed his mind, or the world wasn’t ready.
Was the world ever ready for what God has ever done?!
Was it ready for Christ?
Is your prophet really the mouth piece for God? Do your temples really bare any resemblance to the original temple? Do your rituals?
I have to laugh.. In all my years and life’s experience I have LONG since learned that when you opponent makes such a statement. It means just the opposite
No, they see it this way, they think that their “prophets” are only good for(to use the words of OC):
But we are quoting from Conference Reports not just the JOD, which were ALSO CONFERENCE REPORTS, and are NOT HEARSAY, that is another MORMON BUBBLE LIE. It is good to know that inside the Mormon Bubble they can condemn Christians for adhering to the Bible, and claim they have “revelation”, but then throw all of the teachings of their “prophets” for the last 100 years under the bus. Way to go OC!
Thank you SO MUCH for telling the world that Mormon “prophets” are as worthless as we all know them to be.
Not when you call what your “prophets” teach speculation, hearsay and opinion. Keep laughing. The lurkers aren’t.
Oceancoast
“I have to laugh.. In all my years and life’s experience I have LONG since learned that when you opponent makes such a statement. It means just the opposite”
Well, let me assure you that I didn’t mean the opposite no matter what your experience tells you & as that was just a very small part of what I said perhaps when you finish laughing you could provide us with a sensible rebuttal of the rest.
ooooops. that wasn’t very clever. Apologies Grindael & Oceancoast. I saw the last part of the post thought it was Ocea replying to my comments. Maybe it’s my age & I’m losing it.
Sorry again
Brewed
Just a comment on your remark about Temple rituals etc; This how the LDS view their Temples.
“To those who are worthy and ready, the temple is a “holy place” where the Spirit of the Lord can freely dwell. In this way Mormon temples serve as a sanctuary to those who attend them, providing a place that is holy and has been set aside as a house of the Lord. They are places for prayer, meditation, and revelation.”
Surely the fact that the Temple, (note that’s its singular whereas the LDS has I believe 134) was destroyed signified the end of the Old Covenant. The New Covenant has no need of a Temple. As scripture tells us the Temple is now the body of the Christian 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & that’s where Christ dwells so why would the Holy Spirit also need a building to dwell in? It’s absolutely clear from the above quote that when Mormons claim to have restored what was lost they are actually attempting to restore the Old Covenant, they drop the laws that might be considered offensive & they add Christ to make the LDS appear to be a Christian organization but ultimately they are attempting to put back the chains of the law that Christ freed us from.
One last thing, although I have never been a Mormon I have studied enough of their history to know that you are absolutely right when you say the Corporation resisted being called Christian; in fact I would go so far as to say they were proud of being different to Christians. It’s mainly due to the internet & easy access to the truth that has caused them to adopt what they hope will be perceived as a ‘more Christian stance’ The things that at one time set the LDS apart are now the very things that are bringing about it’s rapid decline & ultimate destruction.
I’ve done it again, I was replying to Ocean in the first instance, ah well, I am rather tired as I’ve only had 2 hours sleep in the last 36, that’s my excuse anyway.
Old Man
“Whether or not Abraham tithed is not the issue here”
No, it is not the underlying issue. However, it does have bearing on the issue at hand, so stop saying that it doesn’t. Your entire argument against Tithing is your insistence that the Law of Tithing was only given to Israel at the time of Moses. That is the basis for everything you have said. As such, refuting this claim by showing that tithing was paid at other times and by other people has a direct bearing on the discussion.
The problem here is not that what I say doesn’t have bearing on the issue. The problem is that you want to control the discussion by limiting it to your narrow definitions. Therefore, any attempt to show that your definition is not accurate has to be immediately discredited. That is your tactic in this discussion.
“I know you didn’t say that & I didn’t claim that you did so stop twisting the facts.”
I twisted nothing, and maybe you should actually read what I wrote. I never once said that you claimed anything. All I did was offer a clarification of my meaning as you indicated that my previous statement had some confusion in it. You’re the one that twisted this into something it wasn’t.
“At last you agree that tithing is NOT taught in the New Testament.”
I never said it was, did I. Again with the distortions.
“there was no law of any kind involved with Abraham”
I believe the Bible, and when God gives a command that is a law, and thus God gave Abraham laws. However, more importantly, it states in 1 Chronicles 16: 15-17:
“Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant”
Of course you will just come back with your accusations of cherry picking and ignoring of context. After all, if you can’t actually address the verse given, might as well distract with a few well worded accusations.
Jaxi
“Thank you for clearing this up.”
It doesn’t seem like I cleared up much. While no one gets a second chance, it is not our place to judge who has had their first chance in this life, and who hasn’t. I can’t say who will or won’t gain benefit from proxy work, and so I will do the work for all people, and leave the judging in the hands of God. If a person wants to do the work for their family that refused baptism in life that is their choice. All they need to understand is that the final judgment is God’s, and so their proxy work may not be effective. It is still better to be safe and do the work, just in case.
Brewed
“And if Baptism is so important to salvation, why was the thief on the cross told he would be in paradise with Christ? He wasn’t baptized.”
How do you know? Does the Bible say he wasn’t baptized?
“I want to enjoy my real eternal family and have the joy and complete fulfillment that is God.
Don’t you?”
Yes, and that is why we live His Gospel and hope to one day be heirs in His Kingdom, so that we may have this fulfillment.
“How can anyone really want what the LDS church offers more?”
How can anyone not? I don’t think you grasp the situation, as I don’t think anyone really grasps the situation. You put far too much mortal thought into something so removed from mortality that we can barely even begin to describe it with our limited understanding and language. But I do know this; throughout eternity, whatever the details are of our existence, my wife will always be my wife, and children will always be my children. This is a blessing that no other denomination even considers possible; at least not in my experience.
“It’s all about work and being “better” to gain something. It’s all about this checklist of righteousness that makes us feel better than others but hollow and unfulfilled.”
I don’t know where you get your understanding, but this bears no resemblance to the doctrine of the church. It not about work, but about progression. Work is merely a tool to assist in this. It is not about a check-list or some kind of sense of self-righteousness. These things will always leave a person unfulfilled. It is about out love for God, and his love for us; and because of this love our striving to do what he has revealed and commanded. There is little in this life that I find more fulfilling than when my father tells me he is proud of what I have done. There is nothing in all existence more fulfilling than to know that my Heavenly Father is satisfied and proud of me.
“God wants us to love him and worship him. He doesn’t want us to become him.”
This is true, and we never could become him. However, he does want us to become all that we can, to reach our highest potential. And, as we are his children, that potential is the same state of being that he himself has; the same as with any father and child.
“The whole premise of our existence and purpose is different. Everything about our core beliefs are different. That’s why we come here and discuss things with you guys.”
The premise is very different. In all my reading and discussion with other Christians all I have been able to decipher is that God created us for no other purpose other than to have something new worship him. So, when we enter heaven that is all we will be doing.
Our premise is far more glories, as it teaches a loving father who raised his children in his watchful care, and then, wanting what was best for us, set up a world in which we could become like him.
The premise is very different.
“Most do not trust the Bible and haven’t even read it. Yet they pour over the BOM over and over and over.”
This is a completely false statement. I know very few members who have not read the Bible, and all of them have firm faith and trust in it. We take two years to study the Bible in our Sunday School, and only one to study the Book of Mormon. We trust the Bible, and we read it frequently.
Shem,
I concur .. this to me is fundamental. The traditions of Orthodoxy has obfuscated and removed this plain and precious truth about our purpose, and replaced it with a doctrine that is devoid of purpose..
I have ask other Christians over and over to describe to me what they imagine the afterlife with God would be like, what they would be doing.. Their answer is almost universally.. They will be worshiping and serving God. Which then I ask, what does that mean exactly.. Can you be more specific? What does the All powerful being like God NEED of worshippers? What SERVICE will you be rendering to the All knowing and all powerful that he couldn’t do for himself? Then they are like deer in the headlights.. They haven’t a clue.. So I ask, if God came to you in the afterlife and asked you to render a service.. would you turn him down or would you do whatever he asked.. The answer is usually .. Yes, I’ll do whatever God asks of me. So what if he bestowed upon you the power to perform acts of creation and asked you to create a world and populate it with mortal humans… Would you say .. No thanks God, go pound sand? Back to deer in headlights.
So what does the LDS faith offer.. A fundamental understanding of who we are.
grindael said..
In typical MO of the LDS Antagonist, they twist and distort not only what our leaders say but what just about every LDS says if they can to disparage the LDS Faith. So Christian of them. They represent the type of Christian that Jesus wouldn’t recognize.
Clearly grindeal doesn’t know the meaning of the word hearsay.. Since the context demonstrates he doesn’t quite know what he’s talking about here.
I haven’t seen ANY Mormons condemning Christians for adhering to the Bible. I have seen a lot of so-called Christians professing beliefs about the Bible that are objectively FALSE.. But those aren’t the ones adhering to the Bible, they appear to be doing the exact opposite.. Making up their own dogma and forcing it on to the Bible… Such is the nature of the LDS Antagonists Bubble.
Really? Really? Hearsay? Trained Clerks who write in shorthand and then transcribe the speeches and then have them approved by those who made the speeches? That is NOT hearsay. Only in the Mormon Bubble would the speeches of Mormon leaders be labeled hearsay, and that is done because they do not LIKE what their leaders are saying. As for OPINION and SPECULATION, which you did not mention, that is YOUR WORDS for what your “prophets” teach. YOUR WORDS. Obviously, you have no FAITH in them to speak as inspired by GOD, which THEY THEMSELVES CLAIM that they do:
I can quote this time after time, but those in the Mormon BUBBLE ignore it. Romney says EXPLICITLY that your “prophets” speak ‘WHAT THE LORD WOULD SAY IF HE WERE HERE’. According to THEM — YOU are the one who is “out of harmony” because you relegate their teachings to “speculation”, “opinion” and “hearsay.”There is no getting around this, and ALL of the talks from General Conference in the JOD, the Collected Discourses and the Conference Reports are ACCURATE and APPROVED by those that gave them. Historians have PROVED THIS, and your saying it is not true, doesn’t make it so. For example, there was one talk that Brigham Young gave that spoke of the Seventy, and it was published in the Millennial Star. It was NOT approved by him. He read it, and had a statement made to show that it was not. He never made ONE STATEMENT about his speeches in the JOD. NOT ONE. In fact, they affirmed them all, and they were all approved by him, as were all the others. There is historical proof to back this up. As Lemony Snicket so aptly said,
It is OBVIOUS, you know little about Mormon History, about how the JOD and the Conference Talks and the Collected Discourses were compiled, and your blatant ignorance only makes you look foolish.
And it is obvious that YOU are the Antagonist here, because you don’t provide any legitimate answers to anything, you only speculate about how YOU interpret Mormonism, and that comment above is the LAST TIME you will ever call anyone a SO CALLED CHRISTIAN, or question the Christian ETHICS of anyone here. This will be your ONLY warning. Try me, OC. I’m done with your whining.
Shem,
You said ” In all my reading and discussion with other Christians all I have been able to decipher is that God created us for no other purpose other than to have something new worship him. So, when we enter heaven that is all we will be doing.
Our premise is far more glories, as it teaches a loving father who raised his children in his watchful care, and then, wanting what was best for us, set up a world in which we could become like him.
The premise is very different.”
You paint a very flowery and nice picture but you my friend have bought into a lie. Nowhere does the bible give any indication that our afterlife will look like that. In fact you come off like worshiping God is a conciliation prize. Worshiping and having an uninhibited relationship with my father in heaven sounds like the perfect way to spend eternity. Complete. Whole. Satisfied in ways I had no idea I could be. Just as I was created to be. You make this seem like a bad thing. Like being a heavenly father to your own little world with millions of spirit babies you and your wife create is a good thing.. How will your children be your children in the next life if they are off populating their own planet anyways? Will they visit your heaven for a sunday dinner?
Joint heirs means we can live in his home. We are his bride and he will carry us home to take care of us and love us forever. Not meaning we get to be god. We can’t, we are created beings. The LDS are perfectly clear that they are not perfectly clear on what this all will look like. So for now, you can make it sound however you want. Stressing that your family will be together forever without even knowing what that means and assuming that in orthodox christianity somehow your cut off from them.
It’s pretty obvious that the one thing Satan so desperately wants us to believe is that we can be our own version of God. That we can somehow contain all the wisdom and power he has. Truth is, We can only be vessels for this power, it will never come from us. Always from him through us. Even in the afterlife. Seems to me that you would like to be your own god, to be all powerful and all knowing. You want all his wisdom and all his power for yourself, not for his glory.
Are you scared that without Mormonism you will lose your family? Because that is a lie too.In Christianity Marriage has no place in the afterlife. The purpose of marriage in this life is to procreate and draw each other nearer to God and to help each other as a team. I don’t need my husband in heaven the way I do on earth. That’s not to say I won’t know him or my children. That doesn’t mean I won’t love him or them anymore. No where does it indicate that our relationship will be severed so long as they are also in heaven. I never hear Jesus once say marriage is forever, in fact go read Mark 12:25. Jesus is pretty clear on what the afterlife will look like and very clear that we won’t be married there.
You may not like what it says but that doesn’t mean it’s not true and certainly doesn’t mean it’s bad.
The Bible also says that Heaven is better than anything we can imagine. There is nothing to be afraid of.
PROVE IT. You can’t. Your saying so, doesn’t make it so. Please PROVIDE EVIDENCE for this blatant LIE. What was removed, when and how? What was “replaced” when, and how? Please give dates, times, and exact side by side quotes of all the things you speak of. And then tell us how the JST “replaced” them. Where is the proof of that? Proof of ALL OF IT, proof of the “conspiracy” you speak of. If you can’t, don’t bother posting here again. Like your comments, weeks ago that I asked you to prove, you said you couldn’t be bothered because you did not have the space to do so. This has been shown to be a LIE, because you have been making very LONG comments, for weeks now. So it is time to PROVE with EVIDENCE, NOT SPECULATION – what you say.
And WHERE, in LDS SCRIPTURE does it say that you will be “creating worlds and populating them?” Where is that “understanding” officially affirmed by the church? IT’S NOT. That is, to them, your OWN SPECULATION. Let’s have the Chapter and Verse please. No using your “prophets” statements, since to you they are all full of “speculation, hearsay and opinion”. Be careful, even FAIR says this is NOT a doctrine:
And, under the question, “Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will ‘get their own planet’?” instead of affirming that this teaching was espoused by several LDS leaders and is found in correlated manuals produced by the Church, the answer given to this question is:
Funny that they only quote from the BIBLE. It seems that your answers aren’t “officially” confirmed by your own church. Having “prophets” doesn’t seem to do you much good now, does it? Seems like your church is acting just like the Christians you so love to denigrate, because Christians also believe that we will “grow” and become “like” our Heavenly Father. We just don’t ascribe to the SPECULATION part of YOUR COMMENTS, and what is absolutely hilarious even your own church does not, irregardless of what their own “prophets” have taught for nigh on two centuries now.
Shem
I’m going to be brief, as I don’t really have the time or the inclination to respond to much of your obfuscation.
“Your entire argument against Tithing is your insistence that the Law of Tithing was only given to Israel at the time of Moses. That is the basis for everything you have said. As such, refuting this claim by showing that tithing was paid at other times and by other people has a direct bearing on the discussion.”
That’s correct, I do say that & the reason I say it is because it’s the truth, The Law of Tithing was given to Israel at the time of Moses & as you haven’t refuted what I’ve said at all it still has no bearing on the discussion. I’m waiting for you to show me where it was applied before that time.
As I’ve said more than once, your organization says that it follows the Law of Tithing so let’s stick to that, the Law of Tithing that was given at the time of Moses.
“I believe the Bible, and when God gives a command that is a law, and thus God gave Abraham laws. However, more importantly, it states in 1 Chronicles 16: 15-17:
“Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant”
“Of course you will just come back with your accusations of cherry picking and ignoring of context. After all, if you can’t actually address the verse given, might as well distract with a few well worded accusations.”
Clearly you do not understand what David was saying in those verses so may I respectfully suggest that you read the very next verse 1 Chronicles 16:17 which tells you what the Covenant was. The Covenant you refer to was made by God in Genesis 15:7-8 & God promised to renew the same Covenant with Isaac in Genesis 17:19-21 You misunderstand the use of the word ‘command’ in that verse. In the context of the subject command is referring to Gods word. For further understanding read Isaiah 55:11 I would like you to tell me how any of the above could be interpreted as a command or a law to tithe.
Well, there you go, I have addressed the verses given & I’m not coming back with any accusations of cherry picking or of you ignoring context; I have no need to. The only thing I will say is that the passages you quote have nothing whatsoever to do with tithing.
To be honest I think you’re afraid that I may be right, no matter how obviously true, no matter how small something might be, you will never admit to it. Any admission of being wrong, however unimportant it might be, will bring down the entire house of cards.
Shem
Sorry, the next verse is of course 1 Chronicles 16:18
Shem,
<"It doesn’t seem like I cleared up much."
My point was, the LDS Church is doing all this work to "redeem the dead." All the dead have to do is accept it. They don't have to do anything but accept. The didn't have to be worthy to go to the temple. They didn't have to avoid coffee and tea. They didn't have to pay 10 percent of their money to a wealthy corporation. All they had to do was accept what their proxy did for them, and they get life with God.
The point is that Christ already did the work. He already conquered death. What he did brings us to life with the father. The dead have already been redeemed. We don't need some proxy to redeem us. Christ already did it all. He said, "It is finished." What Mormons are doing in the temple is playing God. What they are doing is pointless. Take care of the living, Christ has already taken care of the dead. Our job is to accept His sacrifice. Have faith that Christ brings us to the Heavenly Father. That faith and knowledge will bring such joy that works will just pour out of us. There will not need to be dues for worthiness. A persons true faith will inspire them to do goodworks. All Mormons require of the dead is that they accept the temple work done in the LDS corporations building. All Christians say one must do is accept the work done in the true temple (Christ's own body) and they will have life with God. It sounds too easy, that's why Mormons don't like it. But being a Christian is not easy. I think anyone can figure that out by reading the Sermon on the Mount. The work has been done, it is finished, that is the the good news in Christianity. There is no good news in Mormonism. The work is not finished.
grindael said…
.
This makes me laugh.. Of course I can’t prove it.. Because it a SUBJECTIVE Belief.. duh!.
And you saying it isn’t so doesn’t mean it’s not.. But I’m not the one that said this was true.. It’s the testimony of Joseph Smith that Jesus Christ personally said this is so.. Yet whether or not you believe Christ told this to Joseph Smith is also a subjective belief.. In fact whether or not Jesus was anything more than a MYTH propagated by a cult of Jews living in Syria/Turkey area purely subjective opinion. You can’t PROVE your own faith either grindael..so once again the hypocrisy of our critics and their arguments manifests itself.
Here we go again.. the critics calling people liars. I express my belief and they call it a lie.. go figure? But the evidence is self revealing.. The traditional dogma lacks any purpose for the creation of man.. I think that speaks volumes right there.
Sometime between the time Jesus lived and the time proto-Orthodoxy gained political prominence . You have about a three century window of time.
Brewed
“Nowhere does the bible give any indication that our afterlife will look like that.”
Actually it does; in many places, and in many ways. One just has to be open enough to recognize it.
“You make this seem like a bad thing.”
That is not my intention. I do not think this is a bad thing. I just don’t think it is the best thing. Having a relationship and living with our Heavenly Father is a great thing. But sharing in His existence is far better.
“How will your children be your children in the next life if they are off populating their own planet anyways?”
It is statements like this that show you do not understand the fullness of our doctrine. Of course, I have found that many members to not recognize all the aspects of the doctrine taught even in the standard works. I find this somewhat saddening, but it is still true.
Just to be clear: I will be living with all my children here on this Earth, with my wife and all the others that have lived and this Earth and attained exaltation. We will likely go away to do the work that is required of us, but this will be our home.
“We can’t…We can only be vessels for this power, it will never come from us.”
With God all things are possible, or do you not believe this? I do believe this, and so I do believe that through God it is possible for me to be raised and glorified into a state in which I can have all power and knowledge within myself. I honestly don’t understand why this is so difficult for people to comprehend.
“You want all his wisdom and all his power for yourself, not for his glory.”
You really should refrain from trying to tell others what they want and what their motivation is. You do not know me, so don’t assume that I act selfishly in my desire to attain to what my Father has offered. If I gain exaltation it will be to his glory, not mine. His work and his glory are to bring us eternal life and immortality. The more of his children that he can bring into Exaltation, the greater his glory becomes. A person seeking this for their glory will never attain it, as their heart is not right before God.
“Are you scared that without Mormonism you will lose your family? Because that is a lie too.”
I am not scared that I will not know them, or love them, or anything like that. But yet, I am scared that she will no longer be my wife; that that relationship will no longer exist between us. I am scared that my children will no longer have the relationship of a father with me. This is what you deny will exist in heaven as you state that you won’t need a husband in heaven. Well, I will always need my wife to be my wife, in this life and the next; and the idea of not having her in that way scares me.
AS to Mark, I have heard that argument before, but it is not as clear as you would like to claim. I am not going to discuss it here.
Jaxi
I don’t think you understand the nature of spirits. Proxy work is not just accepted. Those people still must repent, but they must do so without the power and strength of a physical body. They will have all the same passions and appetites that they did in life, but will not have the body to act upon them. Accepting the gospel is not easier in the after-life, must a great deal harder, which is why we seek to bring all men to Christ in this life.
Old Man
“as you haven’t refuted what I’ve said at all it still has no bearing on the discussion.”
But I don’t have to prove anything. All I have to do is give a reasonable alternative, which I have done. You can reject it all you want, but you cannot prove that it is not a reasonable alternative. I have never once argued that the specifics of the law given to Israel by Moses were had at a different time. I have simply showed the evidence that other people have paid tithes previous to the time of Moses, even though the specifics were different.
I have also pointed out that at the time of Moses many things were added to that which was had by Abraham, and have suggested that the details of the tithe are among those things.
You have not refuted either of these points, but have merely tried to argue that since you don’t accept them they have no bearing on the discussion. The problem is that others do accept them, and there is nothing in the Bible that says that such is wrong. In other words, if you want us to accept that what you say is true, prove it. Don’t just demand that we accept what you say without any further discussion.
As to 1 Chronicles, I don’t think you understand my point. You claimed that Abraham did not have a law. This passage declares he did. I am not just speaking of the reference to commanding, but to the fact that it is called a law. I never argued this was the Law of Moses. I merely said that it was a law given to Abraham.
Now, while I appreciate your references, I think you need to look to Genesis 17: 1 “the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.”
Here we have a command to be perfect, and thus a law to be perfect. It is only after this that all the promises are enumerated and Isaac is made the child of the covenant. Later we have the law of circumcision given.
Abraham was most definitely given a law that he was expected to follow in order to receive the promise blessings.
Oh, and I have admitted my error in the past. I just require that I actually be wrong before I do so.
<"In fact whether or not Jesus was anything more than a MYTH propagated by a cult of Jews living in Syria/Turkey area purely subjective opinion. "
Here we go again. Another Mormon casting doubt on The Lord himself to try to bolster their argument that the the LDS Church is true. I wonder how The Lord feels about that type of argument. Keep saying stuff like that. The lurkers see the comments and realize Mormonism for the mock Christianity that it is. Mormons got nothing but their feelings to rely on so they try to reduce everyone else's belief system to feelings and opinions. It's a sad sad argument. What OC, doesn't realize is that many of the people that visit this site are Mormon doubters. They are considering whether or not they still believe in God. So, I don't think it is statements like that help the Lords work. Christians do provide facts, reasons, and logic on why they believe Christ was the Savior. I would think a Mormon would want to provide the very same sources and evidence to bring people to knowledge of God. But Mormons don't want people looking at the Jewish and early Christian faith and history because they know they won't find any Mormonism. So they discredit the information and ask investigators how they feel. If they feel good, the missionaries say, "See, this is The Lord telling you it's true." It's based on nothing but feelings. So Mormons have to knock everyone else's faith down to try to achieve an even playing field. It's rather pathetic.
I meant “they believe Christ is the Savior,” not was. (From my previous post)
I have another “isolated” (since Mormons need to call them that, so they feel better about the system) tithing experience that a friend told me. It makes me wonder how “isolated” these experiences really are. The couple were always very active temple going Mormons. The wife left the LDS Church. The husband stayed. They decided to split their income 50/50 and the husband would pay his 10 percent tithing off his half and she would do what she wanted with her half. During the husband’s “self evaluation,” he said he was content with their arrangement and felt that he was a full tithe payer. The bishop said that this was not okay. He needed to pay 10 percent off the money that he earned and she could do what she wanted with the money she earned. Unless the husband could rectify his error in calculating his tithing, he would lose his temple recommend. So can you declare yourself a full tithe payer on your own? I don’t think so. Does the LDS Church pry into your finances? Sure it does. Is this all about money and obedience? Yep.
This is a subjective belief?
You are saying that someone? removed a plain and precious “truth” and then replaced it. That is NOT a “subjective belief”. You are declaring this as a fact. This is simply laughable.
This isn’t about PROVING FAITH. The Bible is REAL and that is what my faith is based on: Jesus teachings contained in it. You can’t prove that “plain and precious” truths were taken out of it and replaced by ???? It is a LIE that you told that plain and precious truths were removed… and replaced… with what, when and where? If this is a subjective belief then why do you say:
Sometime between the time Jesus lived and the time proto-Orthodoxy gained political prominence . You have about a three century window of time.
You are saying that teachings were removed and then replaced. You give some hearsay lie of Jo Smith to back this up. You are simply repeating a lie told by Joseph Smith. You did get it right though, when you said:
Then stop saying it and denigrating Christians who know better and have the facts to prove this is a lie, because it is an unprovable LIE. We have the Bible. Show where in the Bible things were removed and replaced. Still waiting for you to prove this. (and you can’t, you said so – so you’ve admitted to the lie). Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. The purpose for the creation of man is given in the Bible:
This “plain and precious truth” is still in the Bible and has never been “removed”. Your speculation is a LIE from Joseph Smith that you are repeating. There is no truth in it. Your own church (today) doesn’t even back up your own speculation about the afterlife, so again, stop postulating silly conspiracy theories from the Mormon Bubble if you can’t back up what you say. Perhaps what you say will go over better on an atheist blog. At least they will probably believe you.
Jaxi, this is simply Mormon Bubble desperation. You see, when pinned down to answer his lies about the plain and precious truths being taken away from God’s people and replaced with (whatever), the Mormons in the bubble can’t do so. All they can do is say it happened within a three century timeline. There is no proof, no evidence, only speculation bolstered (in their minds) by Jo Smith’s lies. What they do is use the old atheist arguments. Cozy up to the unbelievers to make their sad points. When their lies are pointed out, they then whine about it, like they don’t have a choice to leave and go take their silly bubble logic somewhere else. They have prophets that don’t prophecy. They have prophets that are only full of speculation, hearsay and opinion. And we have this from those that claim that they are in fact prophets. This kind of senselessness and circular illogic is born out of ignorance and the lies of the very men they throw under the bus when they are cornered by the very things they are trying to prove were taught by those men! After all his blabber he finally says, “Of course I can’t prove it”. And that, is the truth.
This is bolstered by the fact that I keep asking for it and get nothing but whining and vague statements that are given with no evidence at all to back them up. “I can’t prove it” sums it all up nicely.
Jaxi, Read this. It will break your heart and shows you the length that Mormon Bishops will go to, to humiliate and strong arm members into not leaving the church:
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/36635/
Shem
“But I don’t have to prove anything. All I have to do is give a reasonable alternative, which I have done. You can reject it all you want, but you cannot prove that it is not a reasonable alternative. I have never once argued that the specifics of the law given to Israel by Moses were had at a different time. I have simply showed the evidence that other people have paid tithes previous to the time of Moses, even though the specifics were different.
I have also pointed out that at the time of Moses many things were added to that which was had by Abraham, and have suggested that the details of the tithe are among those things.”
You say you don’t have to prove anything, well I’m quite sure that every member of your organization who are struggling to make ends meet would disagree with you, if you are prepared to take money from people & keep them in poverty then you should be prepared to prove to them why it’s necessary! This you have singularly failed to do & your normal tactic of offering “a reasonable alternative” has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. All too often when you cannot reply directly to a criticism you will attempt to move the discussion away from the subject at hand & on to a different level. I fell for that little ploy when I was new here but not anymore. We were discussing the Law of Tithing, the law that your organization chooses to call an eternal principle. You have managed to say an awful lot without actually saying very much at all, in fact, all you have done is obscure the issues & have said nothing at all to refute my argument. So, one last time NO ONE before the time of Moses tithed, yes they gave one tenth of ‘something’ but they DID NOT TITHE according to the law & that’s what we’re talking about here, the Law of Tithing, the Law supposedly followed by the LDS. Grindael has explained this, I have explained it & there are many sites online that explain it. Unfortunately the truth seems unimportant in Joseph Smith’s fantasy world, the only things that do seem to matter are the false laws created by your organization.
There are many more arguments that could be presented as to why the tithe is illegal but I will give just one of them, not to convince you because that’s a hopeless task, but in the hope that any Mormon doubters living on the breadline & reading this will take it to one of their leaders & confront them with it.
Jesus DID NOT TITHE. Peter, Paul, in fact NONE of the Apostles tithed, THE POOR WERE NOT RQUIRED TO TITHE AT ALL! Craftsmen did NOT tithe. Fishermen did NOT tithe. Only farmers and herdsmen tithed on what was defined as tithe increase. So will you tell those reading this, those whom your organization keeps in poverty, why they should tithe when the men who wrote the Gospel did not?
I’m not going to argue any more over this, the facts as to why tithing is NOT a requirement for Christians have been explained to you time after time. You have failed not only to refute the arguments presented & you cannot provide a ‘reasonable alternative’ because there is no reasonable alternative. If you choose not to debate the Law of Tithing but instead wish to play with words then play with someone else, however, the only person you will convince is yourself.
This is an issue that I have with the Great Apostacy claims. The final New Testamentn Canon was first identified by the Father Athanasius in 367 A.D. It was ratified by the Coucil of Carthage in 397 A.D. I think it is strange the the LDS faith uses something as scripture that was compiled and recognized as authoritative after the time they think this Apostasy occurred. A Canon is a collection of books that has passed the test of authenticity and authority. How can a Mormon acknowledge the Bible with any auenticity and authority if the people that compiled it had no authority or truth. Why use it? What’s interesting is that they will say that the men that compiled the Bible and ratified it were directed by the Holy Spirit but not the Church leaders that attended the Council of Nicea (325 AD), which happened earlier than the ratification of the Bible or the identification by Father Athanasius. Sounds like a look of picking and choosing.
“Nowhere does the bible give any indication that our afterlife will look like that.”
“Actually it does; in many places, and in many ways. One just has to be open enough to recognize it.”
Name the verses that tell me I will gain the LDS version of exhalation, complete with eternal families and becoming a god? Where does Jesus ever give affirmation to anything uniquely LDS?
“Having a relationship and living with our Heavenly Father is a great thing. But sharing in His existence is far better.”
Why? What will that entail for you that’s so much better than worshiping and having a relationship with Him?
“You really should refrain from trying to tell others what they want and what their motivation is. You do not know me, so don’t assume that I act selfishly in my desire to attain to what my Father has offered. ”
God never offered for us to become a god. He never offered for us to “share in his existence” if by “Share his existence” you mean be all powerful and all knowing. Wanting that is selfish. It’s putting promises into God’s mouth because what he promised isn’t good enough. How would making you the same as God bring him glory? Especially because power is corrupting and me are corruptible and feeble by nature. The bible indicates over and over how much greater God is than anything. This is His Glory. That He is unique, uncreated, eternal, the source of EVERYTHING, all loving, and all powerful. Making us that way too would take away his uniqueness. In fact, the teachings of Brigham Young completely rob God of this very special identity. It’s evident in the fact that the church doesn’t even have a stance on wether or not God was ever man and therefor if God has always been eternal. The scary part is, you can’t see whats wrong with that!
Why do you even worship God? In your belief system, he’s just another created being who was exalted by who knows what power. Shouldn’t we worship the power that exalted him if this was the case?
He’s no different than us or our potential in the LDS church, How is that worthy of praise?
Christians praise God and praise Jesus because they have done something we could never, they are something far greater than us. It is so important. This is not just a slight of opinion, this is very serious stuff. Scariest part, you your belief off the saying of MEN who can’t prove anything. They contradict the Bible. Call the Bible obsolete. But have absolutely zero grounds for such claims.
There are no original transcripts, no archeological evidence. Just a series of contradicting revelations, changed doctrine, and failed prophecy. All of which should be red flags but are completely ignored for the fear of losing your idea of the afterlife which is completely deluded.
And then you throw out “it’s in the Bible”. I’ve read my bible, all the way through. I’ve studied it, poured over it. I’ve studied it’s origin. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Why are you afraid of losing with your spousal relationship in it’s current state?
If everything is complete and restored in heaven, that relationship should be better than it is on earth, not the same.
My comments regarding the plain and precious truths being removed must be hitting pretty close to the bullseye to get such a vociferous response from our critics.
The only lies I see are those distortions and misrepresentation against the Lds faith by critics here who are emotively consumed in their antipathy. And the lies don’t stop there for they exhibit a delusion about their own subjective faith as if it was objective reality.. and in doing so they distort and twist the meaning of bible text they claim to respect in order to force upon it their own deluded ideas.
Hmmm, could you be more specific OC? If you’re going to accuse people of lying then have the decency to say who lied & when so they can at least answer your accusations. If you can’t do that then it might be better if you said nothing. As for distorting Bible text the only people I see doing that aren’t Christians at all, they’re LDS, again. So again, please be more specific.
That response OC, is close to home. Any bible believing Christian would be refuting the “plain and precious truth” comment. When someone smears lies onto beautiful truth it’s like taking defecating on a masterpiece. It’s impossible to not be offended by it.
The plain and precious truth is that Jesus’s blood takes our sin away so that we can be in God’s presence and the LDS seem to have missed that.
Go pick up a copy of the JST and King James side by side bible. I bought mine at desert books. The young man who helped me find it even showed me where Joseph Smith “corrected” the word of God in it.
Go to Isaiah. JS added to it, lots. Then go do some research on the Dead Sea Scrolls. You will find that Isaiah is intact and that JS was a liar who had to falsify the God’s word to make his seem more legit.
Don’t come here and act like we distort the word of God when your prophet completely changed it to suit his needs.
We took seriously God’s word and when we saw how much the LDS church distorted it we call them out.
It’s not like we hate mormons and just want to prove you wrong.
A better way to describe it is this. There is this clinic treating cancer. In this clinic the “doctor” is not a doctor at all. He bought his degree at a diploma farm. He is telling his patients that they are receiving the most advance medication to treat their cancer. Unfortunately, this medication is only sugar water which coincidentally only makes the cancerous tumors grow faster. A group of people find out whats going on and decide to stand outside the clinic to tell the lying doctor’s patients whats going on. These people can’t believe it. This doctor has been so kind to them. In fact, the treatment their receiving doesn’t make them sick like regular Chemotherapy. They get angry at the people standing outside the building, saying that they have a personal vendetta against their “good” doctor. All the while, the people protesting the clinic could really care less about the lying doctor. They want the people being lied to and being made sicker to know the truth and get some real treatment for their cancer.
Incase you didn’t catch it. JS is the lying Doctor, the clinic is the LDS Church, and the sugar water is the LDS doctrine. JS claimed to be a prophet with no credentials to back himself up. The church claims to be the one true church but they are based off of a lying false prophet. And the LDS “gospel” might make you feel good, in fact it probably has fewer side affects then the real Gospel but it’s not real. It only feels good because it’s not working.