With the June 2013 New Era article “Balancing Church History” in mind, heeding the advice of Church Historian Steven Snow to examine Mormon Church history in context, I offer this new video by award-winning author Dan Vogel. The video provides a good, contextual study of Joseph Smith’s discovery of the gold plates.
Occult Context of Joseph Smith’s 1823 Discovery of Gold Plates by Dan Vogel
I love the information that Dan Vogel provides in his videos but I have a hard time listening to his videos. I think I might need to read some of his books.
Wow. I cant believe that I ever tried to convince myself to believe this stuff. Why? Totally humiliating. So glad these are not questions I need answers to anymore.
cattyjane,
No humiliation needed đ The church can be very convincing. I remember feeling so dumb for believing it it all. The thing is, the church does all it can to protect it’s image, they would never put up a video like this one with all the facts for anyone to see. Most members aren’t aware of the things you have been exposed to just on this site alone. I never was. There was so much I wasn’t aware of and some of it is my fault for not researching it all, but some of it falls on the church for not being forthcoming with all of it’s history and doctrines. They call it milk before meat. The important thing is that you looked at the evidence and figured it out. Jesus is what is important, not a certain church or denomination. đ
Kate,
I shared my rude awakening experience that I had last weekend with RickB and Rikkij. You guys are welcome to it if you want to know more. I will just summerize. I visited my home town last weekend and was invited to attend sacrament meeting with some very close friends of mine. I decided to go because even tho I had pretty much decided the church wasnt true I still had that little voice in the back of my head that said what if it is. Long story short I went and because this time I attended with more biblical knowledge and understanding than when I had last attended it was a complete slap in the face. I stayed the entire 3 hours. The boastamonies, as ive heard rickb say, were lacking except those given by the missionaries and I heard jesus mentioned twice the entire day. One time he was only used as a reference point to explain how the prophet is our good shepherd today as jesus was in the bible. What? I get where you guys scream blasphemy now. Scripture reference was non existant for teachings presented. One BoM scripture was given but it didnt really relate to the topic presented. I was really angry when I left at the deceit and distraction from truth that the church teaches. Anyways. Im glad I didnt drag my daughter into that faith and im glad that I researched before I made a decision to return.
cattyjane,
I understand where you are coming from. I think we all need to understand that going to the LDS church is completely different than attending a church with a learned pastor, priest, minister, etc. These men and women have an actual college education in religion. The people called to teach at LDS meetinghouses are just average people off the street. I was a primary teacher many times and I had no religious education or training. I just taught the cute little lessons from the manual and tried to find fun, interesting crafts to keep the kids busy. I’m not excusing anything, just comparing how things are done. Most LDS only know what they have been taught at church and they have no formal religious education. They do use a manual and I DO have issues with the lessons in those manuals. This is where the whitewash and omissions are found.
You are correct about Jesus being rarely mentioned at an LDS church. The first time I attended a Christian church I was blown away at the difference. The entire 2 hours were devoted to Jesus, worship songs about Jesus, and Biblical study, oh and a few coffee breaks that were thrown in so we could fellowship. Lots of people love the breaks for socializing but I’m struggling with that part of it. I think some of it may be that it is too relaxed and not structured like I was used to in the LDS church. Keep searching and studying and ask God to put you where He wants you to be. I am still doing this as well but we’ll get there!
Kate,
I know what you mean about the structure issue. I know you have been chatting with Jaxi too and let me just say that if I weren’t Lutheran I would be Orthodox. I’m not trying to pitch my side and neither was Jaxi hers, so I’ll just say I’d rather you side with Jaxi than me. Some people prefer more casual environments like the church you are at now, some prefer more structured liturgical environments. We have a great gift in Christ in the freedom he gives us for His body to be as diverse as it is to worship and serve Him as we may in accordance with His will. Let each one be fully convinced in their own mind without condemning another. And cattyjane, good job! It is a great thing to see God building faith in you and setting you apart for good works that can only be found in Him! Eph 3.20-21
Kate,
Ya im treading water at the moment. Just trying to keep my head above water. I have a lot to muddle through still but its getting clearer.
MistT,
I dont know where I will end up but at least I know who God is and who he is not now. Its the first step in my journey.
Like almost all critics who argue for a cultic or magical origin of the Book of Mormon and establishment of the church, Vogel appeals primarily to third-hand and fourth-hand accounts of the events, most of which occur decades after the fact. It is an interesting thing seeing critics and their followers build an argument upon methods that are contrary to standard historical preferences.
In short, Vogel, and the others who make the same argument, are arguing that the experiences associated with obtaining the plates were primarily treasure digging experiences and that the story changed in time and became one involving an angel of God only later. But if you look at all accounts and testimonies relating to these events, an honest assessment suggests that the events were initially interpreted by Joseph and those closest to him as involving an angel from God who had a work for Joseph to do that was very much contrary to self interest in becoming rich as a result of the material value of the plates. It was through Joseph’s antogonists that this story takes on the magical, treasure-seeking nature and feel. But the nature of the relationships between those antagonists and Joseph is apparently ignored by the critics who attempt to change the story as it came from Joseph.
The earliest accounts of Joseph obtaining the plates all refer to the messenger as an Angel from Heaven or an Angel of God. None of them refer to him as a guardian over treasure or bare the links to treasure seeking that the later accounts from Joseph’s competitors and enemies maintain. And the testimonies that are closest to the events all maintain the same thing- that Moroni was an angel of God and this whole endeavor of obtaining the plates involved translating an ancient work from prophets of God.
Among the close and earliest accounts include those from Lucy Smith Joseph’s mother, Joseph Smith Jr., Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, David Whitmer. All those who saw Moroni maintained a consistent testimony about him being an angel of God participating in a restoration of the gospel, not a guardian being involved in treasure seeking. Even Orlando Saunders, a neighbor and friend of Joseph’s stated that Joseph “always claimed that he saw the angel.”
Every statement from Joseph Smith claims that he was led to the plates by an angel of God. Joseph’s mother, Lucy, states that the day after this happened, Joseph told the family what happened with the angel of God appearing and showing Joseph the plates and explaining the role Joseph was to fill in bringing forth the restoration.
Joseph’s brother, William, states that as soon as Joseph obtained the plates in 1827, rumors began circulating about angels of the devil, treasure guardians, toads, etc., fulfilling the prediction of Moroni.
The statements that are the basis for the revisionist history involving magic and treasure seeking come from antagonists like Abner Cole, Joseph and Hiel Lewis, Fayette Lapham, Willard Chase, and many others who were among those who sought to steal the plates from Joseph. Abner Cole, editor of the local tabloid paper, wrote a parody of the Book of Mormon entitled “The Book of Pukei.” It is the earliest source that claims there was magic and treasure seeking involved in Joseph’s experiences with the angel and the plates and was published in June 1830. Cole explains what was his methodology in his public writings when he stated that, “this tale in substance, was told at the time the event was said to have happened by both father and son, and is well recollected by many of our citizens.” He is basically saying that the local gossip and hearsay is the basis for his claims. And as Joseph had expressly asked his family to keep all these things secret, it is hard to believe Joseph went out and told everybody in the community what had happened- especially those who were trying to get the plates from Joseph and who were mocking and ridiculing his claims.
Even the statements collected by Philastus Hurlbut included one from Abigail Harris wherein she said that Moroni was “the spirit of one of the Saints that was on this continent.
The earliest newspaper reports of Joseph’s claims all refer to Moroni as “the spirit of the Almighty.” This can hardly be interpreted as a treasure guardian. The Wayne Sentinel reported the discovery of the plates involving “an ancient record, of a religious and divine nature and origin” to be translated by “inspiration.”
Jesse Smith, Joseph’s uncle, responded to a letter sent to him by Joseph in 1828 and said, “He [Joseph] writes that the Angel of the Lord has revealed to him the hidden treasures of wisdom and knowledge, even divine revelation, which has lain in the bowel of the earth for thousands of years and is at last made know to him.” Jesse goes on to mock Joseph and instead refers to the angel who appeared as “Devil it should be.” Jesse is clear referring to a letter sent by Joseph wherein Joseph told his uncle about the “Angel of the Lord.” Nothing about a treasure guardian or treasure seeking.
This is anything but a “balanced” analysis of the history of Joseph Smith obtaining the plates and communicating with the angel Moroni. It is a summary of the hearsay and gossip that existed in the community after the fact and is based on the presupposition that such are the foremost sources for the “facts.”
Instead of Joseph modifying his claims over time from one involving treasure seeking into one involving an angel of God, it is the critics who have modified the history from the initial claims of Joseph and those closest to him into one involving superstition, treasure seeking, and treasure guardians.
Vogel, along with others, maintains that Joseph sought treasure the night that Moroni appeared. They make the conclusion based on the presence of a full moon the day before. They read into that what some people maintained about a full moon being the best time to find treasure. But William Safford, who had dug for treasure with the Smiths, stated the opposite- “At certain times, these treasures could be obtained very easily; at others, the obtaining of them was difficult. The faciilty of approaching them, depended in a great measure on the state of the moon. New moon and good Friday, I believe, were regarded as the most favorable times for obtaining these treasures.” So why do the critics insist on interpreting the course of events through the lense of magic and treasure seeking when Safford maintained that it was a new moon or good Friday that was best for such endeavors. It seems such revisionist historians are making a conclusion and looking for support for that conclusion, including the full moon business.
There are many people who are followers. They accept what other people conclude without much investigation of their own. LDS are often accused of such a mindset not infrequently. But the critics of the church and its members are extremely frequently guilty of the very thing of which they accuse others. And this is a good example.
Cattyjane,
I have been exactly where you are now. I had to set aside everything because I didn’t know what to believe. I decided I would only trust Jesus himself. I read the NT and then I read it again. I paid close attention to what He said, especially about himself. It has taken me about 4 years to get to the point where I am starting to trust and think about what church I want to attend fulltime. It’s a hard road but you will do it in your own time. God meets you where you are.
MT,
I am looking into The Orthodox Church and had some email back and forth with Andy Watson ( awesome guy) I have downloaded several books on my Kindle and I am studying through those.
It is a wonderful church. It is very traditional which appeals to me. My problem is that I have research ADD and I bounce around topics hahaha! Falcon needs to tell me to focus. I have already researched the Lutheran church. I started with that and a few other Protestant denominations.Thanks for the advise!
Cattyjane,
I’m very happy for you. God is Great. May He bless you on your journey.
Thanks Jaxi
Cattyjane,
This is all great news, would you mind going into detail on the conversations you were having with Rick and Rikki? Did you have an Aha moment or was it more of the gradual compound of everything taken it over time? You know, not everybody serves the same purpose in the body of Christ, even as we see on this board. It will be great to see the Lord at work in your life and how He will use you for His will. It can be tiring and we may not see the fruit, but it is not ours to see, that’s why we pray, “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
@MistT,
Yes I can do that.
We have covered quite a few topics but I will say that when I came to an understanding of the divine unity of the Father and the Son is when the turning point actually occurred. It was a combination of information provided by Rikkij, RickB and another individual that helped me to realize that the trinity or the divine unity is what makes everything work. This was something that I was very set against and honestly thought I would never believe in, but the facts presented could not be denied. Once I grasped this fact than it was much easier to understand who God is. By accepting the trinity as fact and truth I could no longer accept the LDS doctrine. The problem was that I still wanted to hang on just a little bit, in some way, but it doesn’t really work like that.
I had to attend a wedding in my hometown last weekend. I have a lot friends that are LDS and I had promised that I would attend Sacrament Meeting with them while I was down there. I was really nervous because I had heard so much information that confirmed the church could not be true and I had just overcome a really big issue with understanding the trinity. I was terrified that all of this understanding was just going to be ripped out from under me and I would be back where I started. I was afraid that I would see what I was missing by leaving the church and want to return. It had been a few years since I had attended Sacrament meeting. The last time I attended I was still in the College Ward and this time I attended the Family Ward. I decided that it would be good for me to go. That way I could take the sacrament, pray about the church and ask God to open my eyes to see if the church was true or not. I also told Rikkij and RickB that I would be attending that Sunday so Im sure they prayed as well.
It was Faust and Testimony Sunday so I was expecting to hear some really amazing testimonies and have my heart strings yanked but instead the exact opposite happened. I never heard anything about the BoM had changed someones life or how finding God had saved their marriage. I didn’t hear about how trusting God during the hard times or reading scripture in BoM had provided comfort when they didn’t know what to do. Actually I didn’t hear people talk much about anything. It was so random. No mention of God or Jesus at all during these testimonies. No scripture reference whatsoever. The only thing that was consistently said was that they loved the church and loved their family. That was it. I was really disappointed. To be honest I heard better testimonies about God at an AA meeting that I attended once with a friend of mine (Don’t worry, I was the support system not the alcoholic haha).
Then I went to Relief Society and was extremely disturbed by the information I was hearing. Granted it may have just been the way that the leader said it but I was really upset by the end of it. One of the things she talked about was our duty to perform baptisms etc for our deceased and this was the comment that she said…word for word “They without us cannot be perfect and we must do what we can to save our family.” This totally blew me away. I was like are you serious? Im having a really hard time trying to figure out how to save myself, let alone the rest of my family. No thank you. It was the words “They without us cannot be perfect”. This to me is just blasphemy. I cannot make anyone perfect in the sight of God. Nothing that I do will ever make anyone perfect. These ordinances for the dead have never existed in the Jewish faith. Jesus did not teach ordinances for the dead and the apostles did not practice ordinances for the dead. People are responsible during their lifetime, while they are alive, to find truth and worship the TRUE God in truth. I did give the lady the benefit of the doubt tho. I figured that this point something would be said about Jesus Christ…but I was wrong…no reference was made to Christ about forgiveness of sin…not one word was said.
The next thing that was stated was how the temple protects us from Satan…I can’t even expand on this point because I did not understand what the heck she was talking about! But I know there isn’t a building on the planet than can protect me from Satan. Only God can do that! The true temple in Jerusalem was destroyed….THE TRUE TEMPLE….was destroyed!! It was not even spared! Why would any of these Mormon temples protect me, when the authentic temple of God was destroyed??
Finally she mentioned Jesus Christ at the end. I perked up and was ready to hear what she had to say. She pointed at a picture of Jesus Christ on the marker board and said “Everyone knows that this is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was called the good shepherd” And then proceeded to explain why he was called that and how we are like the sheep….her reasons were seriously lacking tho I have to say….but at least she mentioned Christ. So I thought yay! The first time in the last 3 hours of my attendance he was finally mentioned! And then she ruined it. She drew a line from the picture of Jesus Christ to President Monson and said “and we have a good shepherd today to guide us and direct us” and she started crying. I could not believe what I had heard! Im actually upset just writing this so I will just give a scripture that I think shines more light on this issue than my words will.
1 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 âSon of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy and say to them, âThus says the Lord GOD to the shepherds: âWoe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flocks? 3 You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool; you slaughter the fatlings, but you do not feed the flock. 4 The weak you have not strengthened, nor have you healed those who were sick, nor bound up the broken, nor brought back what was driven away, nor sought what was lost; but with force and cruelty you have ruled them. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd; and they became food for all the beasts of the field when they were scattered. 6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and on every high hill; yes, My flock was scattered over the whole face of the earth, and no one was seeking or searching for them.â 7 Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 âas I live,â says the Lord GOD, âsurely because My flock became a prey, and My flock became food for every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, nor did My shepherds search for My flock, but the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed My flockââ9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD! 10 Thus says the Lord GOD: âBehold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand; I will cause them to cease feeding the sheep, and the shepherds shall feed themselves no more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouths, that they may no longer be food for them.â 11 For thus says the Lord GOD: âIndeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down,â says the Lord GOD. 16 âI will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment.â 17 And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord GOD: âBehold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats. 18 Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastureâand to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet.â 20 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD to them: âBehold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed themâMy servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the LORD, have spoken. 25 I will make a covenant of peace with them, and cause wild beasts to cease from the land; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe in their land; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. 29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. 30 Thus they shall know that I, the LORD their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people,â says the Lord GOD.ââ 31 âYou are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God,â says the Lord GOD (Ezekiel 34:1-31, NKJV).
Here, through the prophet Ezekiel, God rebukes the evil shepherds (or leaders) of the nation Israel. He speaks of a coming day when they will be judged, and when God Himself will gather His scattered flock in the person of Messiah (âMy servant David,â verse 24). In our text in John 10, Jesus boldly claims to be the promised âGood Shepherd,â
The ONLY Good Shepherd.
How did I not see this stuff when I attended before? Was it because I attended the college ward when I was attending before and that’s why it was different? Or maybe because of all of the stuff that I have learned recently, im not sure. But I was so mad and so upset by the time that I left that I have no desire whatsoever to return to the Mormon church! None! And I am so glad that I didn’t take my daughter with me!
After church I went to my friends house and we discussed a few things. I talked with him about where the Melchezidek Priesthood is mentioned in Hebrews and explains that Jesus Christ holds the Melchezidek priesthood forever because he does not die. He didn’t believe me that it actually said Melchezidek in the bible and I found the chapter and I read it to him. He couldn’t explain it. He tried to but it was a really weak explaination. But I could tell that he was shocked that it actually said that in the bible. Of course he went on trying to convince me and told me that I needed to quit looking for outside sources to answer my questions and just pray about it. They gave me a video to watch and offered a priesthood blessing so that I could find the answers that I was looking for. I know the answer to if the Mormon church is true or not and it is a big fat no! I didn’t say that to them. I wasn’t rude. Im really glad that I went to the meeting tho because this time I went in with a different approach and I saw it for what it really was. It is a humongous distraction from truth. That is what it is! So I have eliminated one possibility of truth off of my plate permanently! I will never return to that.
Do I still have things that I don’t understand? Yes. Do I still have questions? You bet! But now that I am praying to the true God and seeking him for the answers, I know that they will be provided…in his timing and not mine. God has amazing timing and I know that his hand has been on my life this entire year. When I read the scriptures in the bible now they come to life! Knowing the true God makes every bit of difference. He reveals himself in his words. The scripture I posted in Ezekiel about the Messiah coming from the line of David to be the Good Shepherd is just so amazing to me that I cannot imagine handing that title over to any human man. There is one Good Shepherd and one “priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek” Hebrews 7:16 and that is the Messiah, YAHWH, Jesus Christ!
cattyjane ,
I’m happy for you . Continue to remove everything Mormon from your life and keep replacing
it with spiritual truth from God’s Word the Bible .
God bless those who have , and will , help you make this vital transition .
Kate,
“…….oh and a few coffee breaks that were thrown in so we could fellowship.”
I had to laugh at that. It sounds like the worship service I attend. Quite a switch from my youth when I’d go to mass said in Latin……..everyday except Saturdays during the school year. That was structure!
Andy Watson, who used to post here and has contributed articles, gets driven nuts by the new forms of worship out there. He grew-up in the south where you wore your best suit to church. He lives in Las Vegas so it goes without saying many of the worship services follow the “seeker” format. He heads down occasionally to the Greek Orthodox Church because there’s some elements of that tradition that he likes.
Here’s the beauty of the whole deal, find something you’re comfortable with. The church I attend has three different worship services so a person can attend the one they like. The pastor preachers at all three, solid Biblical messages, so there’s consistency.
I would say for those who are just “out” of Mormonism, it’s important to attend where the Word of God is taught. Too many of the seeker friendly churches don’t go very deep.
But it’s all about Jesus.
WOW cattyjane ,
This is the greatest site ever. How many stories like yours have there been here in the last week or so? amazing
I am literally shaking with emotion. Your comments are so encouraging to me.
quote:
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, [cattyjane] For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
(Matthew 16:17 paraphrase)
end quote
peace
cattyjane,
I’m sitting here scratching my head and asking myself, “Is that the same person who started posting here several weeks ago?” God confirmed to me that He does things in His time and in His way and puts people in our path that will take the time to assist us in coming to Him. I’m very grateful that the Rick/Rikki twins where ready, willing and available to interact and provide you with answers.
Although I wasn’t Mormon, I came to Christ in much the same way.
I feel a little sorry for FOF. He comes here and just flails away trying to defend a form of religion that is little better than a Free Masonry lodge. But there are people who love these fraternal organizations. They get just enough out of it to keep them from true faith in Christ. They believe it’s all true and only God can penetrate this mind-set.
FOF,
I’m serious when I say I feel more than a little sorry for you. You come here several times a day to post, gallantly defending the “one true church” against these vicious and unwarranted attacks. And not only by “never have been” Mormons, but all of these former Mormons, several of whom have left the “truth” quite recently and are headed for outer-darkness, in your believe system. How in the world, you must think, could these people give up so much?
I’ll clue you in. There’s nothing that can surpass the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. In his letter to the Philippians, the apostle Paul talks about his former religious life and all of his accomplishments in religion. He says that he counts it all as “garbage” compared to knowing Christ Jesus, His Lord and Savior.
It’s really not much of a trade when you think of it. Giving up a religious system for faith in Jesus. Faith in Christ leads to eternal life. Faith in a dead religious system like Mormonism results in spiritual death. This religious system has no power to save. Only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross can do that. We can’t add one thing to what Jesus did for us. When He was dying on the cross and said, “It is finished!”, He was saying that the debt was paid for sin. Nothing can be added to it; certainly not meaningless religious rituals and codes of conduct.
Those who are in Christ Jesus walk in the newness of spirit, not the oldness of the flesh. That’s what Christ does for us. We are new creatures in Him.
FoF,
Your response seems to suggest that it matters whether Moroni was a guardian of treasure seekers or an angel.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
“13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.”
Galatians 1:6-8
“6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”
1 John 4:1
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
Based on these scriptures, why should we embrace the Joseph Smith Story? Sounds like we would be taking a big risk listening to “an angel of light.”
Jaxi,
Did you watch Vogel’s video? Because that is the very issue. He and others argue that the visitation of Moroni was originally more of a treasure-seeking experience tainted with magic and the occult rather than an angel from God and only later was claimed to have been a visitation from an angel. His argument is that the story evolved over time.
And to make his, argument, as the others so, he places greatest weight on the testimonies and statements from third and fourth hand accounts, most of which were obtained 40 and 50 years after the fact. He ignores those who were closest to the events and the statements and testimony that came earliest. That is an interesting methodology for a historian.
By the way, I always find it interesting when people quote the verses you offered in your post. They prove absolutely nothing. Of course, the response from me is that this angel Moroni did not come to preach another gospel, but the original and eternal gospel of Christ. And both of us are left with the question we started with- which gospel is the correct gospel.
falcon- it is not I who needs sympathy. It is not difficult to note the mob mentality that exists within the environment of critics. The “neener neener” mentality does rear it ugly head and reminds me of many things, none of which reflect positively upon those who participate. Your comment about me “flailing” does not apparently take into consideration actual arguments and content, but the numbers on opposing sides. Not surprising.
And you do not understand what outer darkness is and who it is that will go there.
Thanks.
FoF,
“Did you watch Vogelâs video?”
Yes, I did. I was being willing to concede to your view of Joseph Smith History.
<"By the way, I always find it interesting when people quote the verses you offered in your post. They prove absolutely nothing."
That's in interesting point of view. We have been given the Bible and must judge Mormonism based on that Bible. I feel as thought Paul teaches the gospel rather plainly. I will post this scripture again because I am not sure you grasp it's complete meaning.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
â13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.â
That end part sounds a lot like Mormonism too.
” Of course, the response from me is that this angel Moroni did not come to preach another gospel, but the original and eternal gospel of Christ.”
You act as if traditional Christianity has the burden of proof. “They prove absolutely nothing.” You claim to be teaching the original and eternal gospel, yet, there is no proof. Just feelings, and a man’s testimony that he conversed with a “person” that “was aglorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning.” In one account the exact phrase, “angel of light” is used.
As a Christian I must follow the scriptures originally given to the body of Christ. I am warned to be wary of “angels of light,” other gospels, “ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works,” and to watch for “false prophets.”
So my question again is, “Based on these scriptures, why should we embrace the Joseph Smith Story?”
Your response is to not worry about those scriptures and just take your word and Joseph Smith’s for it that Mormonism is the real deal. I do not brush aside the word of God so easily.
FOF,
“Of course, the response from me is that this angel Moroni did not come to preach another gospel, but the original and eternal gospel of Christ. And both of us are left with the question we started with- which gospel is the correct gospel.”
How do you know that the Mormon Church offer’s the only correct gospel?
Have you ever studied what the original church of Christ looked like? It’s available… Why don’t you do a comparison and tell me how true and correct your gospel is. How “restored” it is.
I’m not going to tell you anything about it, you go find it yourself. I dare you. I dare you to go outside of the LDS church and find out what Christ’s church originally looked like. What the purpose of the temple was. What the priesthood was and what it’s purpose was. Then come back here and tell me about how the church restored this.
Forgive me for jumping in, I try to stay away but it can be very hard when reading some of the arguments put forward in here. Call it righteous indignation if you like. Anyway I have just one question for FoF concerning his comments to Jaxi.
FoF said
âBy the way, I always find it interesting when people quote the verses you offered in your post. They prove absolutely nothing. Of course, the response from me is that this angel Moroni did not come to preach another gospel, but the original and eternal gospel of Christ. And both of us are left with the question we started with- which gospel is the correct gospel.â
The Scriptural quotes offered by Jaxi prove EVERYTHING to someone who believes that God would NOT allow His Sons sacrifice to be meaningless for 1800 years.
It isnât a question of which Gospel is correct; for the claims of the LDS to be true it would have to mean that Christ failed to establish His church or to hold it together & His claims to have done so (Matthew 16:18) would therefore be lies. Christ or Joe Smith is lying, do you know who it is?
So, this is what you should be asking;
First how could a self proclaimed prophet/ con man be expected to succeed in Establishing Christâs Church when Christ Himself couldnât do it?
Second has Joe Smith succeeded in doing what Christ failed to do?
Lets have no fancy beating about the bush as is usually the case when confronting Mormons with the truth, a straight yes or no will suffice.
I’ve been lurking here for over a month while researching the Mormon church. I’ve had several meetings with the young missionaries that were also attended by two couples. After each lesson I’ve been asked if I was praying for a testimony that the Mormon Church is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I’ve been given “homework assignments” to read in the BoM and told repeatedly that if I prayed with sincerity, humility and proper intent, I would receive a testimony of the truth.
After my third meeting, the missionary asked me if I was ready to be baptized into the church even though I told him I had not received my testimony of truth. This was an especially hard meeting because I felt I was being pressured to give the answers they were seeking. Six on one. So uncomfortable. I told them that I wanted to know more about the church. I pointed to the book containing the bible and the three Mormon books. I asked them how they expected me to commit to something I didn’t fully understand. A switch seemed to flip, suddenly everyone backed off and I was asked to commit to another missionary meeting the following week.
The following week, the missionaries arrived with another young man who was introduced as their zone leader. This young man took control of the meeting immediately. He leaned across the table toward me and in a very folksy manner said, “You know jayjay, I kinda look at the scriptures like ice cream. I LOVE butter pecan ice cream but I don’t have to eat the whole carton to know I like it. It’s the same with the scriptures. Have you been reading the BoM and praying? How are you praying? What are you asking for?” Some things you must take on faith. What does the word faith mean to you, jayjay? In that moment, I realized that he had been called in as reinforcement to keep me distracted from asking more than they were ready or willing to teach me. I politely told the zone leader that I clearly understood what he was saying, that I was not attempting to be resistant to the teachings but that I simply would not make a cavalier commitment to join the Mormon Church without knowing what that involved. A flash of anger crossed his face and he sat back clearly annoyed. When he regained control of himself he began to explain that it was critical that I be baptized in the Mormon Church. My previous baptism, while surely full of my good intention, was not performed by one who held the priesthood authority. When I asked if that rendered my previous baptism invalid his reply was that it was not invalid; it was insufficient for entry into the Celestial Kingdom. I left that meeting deeply troubled and confused. I went home to begin an intensive internet search on church doctrine and history. I found this site, MRM, Mormonthink and others. I began reading the journal of discourses, particularly volume 6.
In my last meeting with the missionaries two weeks ago, there were again six Mormons and me. I was again asked if I’d received my testimony of truth and when I said I had not, the 19 year old missionary told me I needed to get on my knees while praying. He assured me that although he’d read little of the Bible or the D&C, he was very familiar with the BoM and knew it to be true. He assured me that if I was praying properly, I too would receive that testimony. He said the BoM was the keystone of the church and asked me to explain the word keystone to him. The lesson was then abandoned as the two Mormon couples explained priesthood authority, the great aspostasy, the world’s desperate need for Joseph Smith, Smith’s martyrdom and the persecution of the church. They explained to me how, as a single woman, I would be lovingly cared for by members of the church. I begged off another meeting telling them I was going to another city to visit family. There is a temple in that city and one of the women insisted that I meet them to tour the visitor’s center. She wouldn’t quit, saying that my family certainly wouldn’t mind my leaving them for a few hours. I promised to try to meet them to get her to back off. As I was leaving, that same woman said, “It may not be politically correct but you must know that we are the only true church. The rest of them are simply wrong. We pray that you will see the light. I will call you when you are visiting your family to arrange a visit to the temple.” That evening her husband emailed me his priesthood line of authority back to Joseph Smith. While I was visiting my family, the woman left three voice mails and sent two emails trying to get me to set a time to meet them for a temple visit. The missionaries have left two messages asking me to meet with them again. I didn’t respond to any of this for days. I continued my research and am disgusted with what I have learned that was glossed over or intentionally concealed from me. Most of all, I am appalled at the tactic of calling my sincerity, intention and humility into question because I haven’t received a testimony that the church and the BoM are true.
I didn’t realize why I kept subjecting myself to these meetings until reading something Old Man posted on the oops thread. I was attracted by the social structure, the feeling of community. Thankfully, there was also a feeling of something beneath the surface that didn’t add up.
This experience has haunted me. I am meeting the couple who got me into this on Saturday. I feel it is only fair to tell them that I will not be joining the Mormon Church. I hope they will accept my decision gracefully and not try to draw me into further discussion. They are truly nice people and I want to end this on friendly terms. I just can find any truth in Mormonism.
I want to thank everyone who has posted here. There is a wealth of knowledge and compassion here. All of you, whether never-Mormon, ex-Mormon or TBM Mormon have helped me tremendously.
Blessings,
jayjay
I will first note that the posters on this thread are not really responding to the video or my response to the video. Instead, you are focusing on other things. And that is precisely what I have tried to point out previously. And refusing to focus on what is immediately in front of you allows you to make claims like the critics always do- “there is no evidence for the Book of Mormon,” or all the other standard statements made by critics.
I have countered the information presented in the video and shown how the argument is based upon tertiary and quaternary references instead of those closest to the events, in both relation and time.
Now to your question and points:
Jaxi-
My point about the New Testament passages you posted is not that they are not true or are not important. It is the arbitrary nature of your claim that they necessarily apply to Moroni or any other angel that appeared during the restoration. A being who appears and represents himself or herself as an angel from God is not necessarily the devil appearing as an angel of light. According to those New Testament passages, he can do that. But just because an angel appears does not mean it is the devil taking the form of an angel of light. But that is pretty much how the critics of the church use those passages of scripture. The same applies to the verses about false prophets. It goes without saying that none of us want to follow a false prophet. And we, of course, claim to follow true prophets.
And verse 13 of the passage you quote above is actually saying the opposite of what you are suggesting. It reads, “Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.”
That sentences is not saying that false ministers present a gospel based on works. Rather, it is saying that false ministers will be judge by their works. FYI.
And I am not shifting any burden of proof. You quoted the passages and suggest they applied to the church and our prophets. I am challenging your claim. It is not my burden if you made the first claim.
You further say, “Your response is to not worry about those scriptures and just take your word and Joseph Smithâs for it that Mormonism is the real deal. I do not brush aside the word of God so easily.”
You are following Sharon’s methodology in making huge assumptions in analyzing Elder Snow’s talk. When did I ever say to not worry about those scriptures? Never. I challenged your application of those scriptures. And when did I ever suggest anybody take my word or Joseph Smith’s word “for it?” Never.
You guys really need to recognize when you are putting words into the mouths of other people and when you are making unwarranted assumptions. It really undermines your credibility.
A person learns the truthfulness of the restored gospel the same way a person has always learned such truth- through diligent study, application of the principles taught, fasting, and ceaseless prayer.
Brewed- yes. I have made a detailed exhaustive comparison of the gospel taught by Christ and His apostles as well as the revelations received through previous generations and have determined very clearly that nothing comes close to the restored gospel. Presenting all that I have uncovered and learned over the course of thousands of hours of research and decades of investment is literally impossible to do here.
Old man- you, too, make enormous assumptions in your statements and conclusions. As Latter-day Saints, we believe the atonement of Christ has merit and application to every soul who has ever walked this earth. If anything, we have a very good explanation how that is possible despite the fact that there are billions of people who have not had the opportunity in this world to hear the gospel. It is your side of the argument that does not have a good explanation for this. You mention 1800 years, presumably the period of time between the apostasy of the ancient church and the restoration, as a time when Christ’s blood was somehow meaningless. You suggest that an apostasy would have resulted in such a meaningless nature of His atonement. But you apparently ignore the billions and billions of people who have never heard of Christ or had the opportunity to have His saving blood applied to their souls. In so doing, you are opening up a question for which I don’t think you are prepared.
Christ didn’t fail to establish His church. Mortal men failed to live up to His teachings and follow Him. And that is nothing new. Using your logic, then I suppose God failed in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit. Or when Israel fell away into apostasy so many times. Was it God who failed at those times as well?
Matthew 16:18 has a meaning entirely different than what you are reading into it. I encourage you to learn what you can about the history of the phrase “gates of hell.” Christ was not using that phrase as us moderns do. It had a very literal meaning. The phrase was actually “gates of hades.” And hades was a real place. And the “gates of Hades” was a reference to the boundary of that place that held spirits in and kept them from leaving. The opening of those gates was partly a function of the keys which Christ gave to Peter. In other words, Peter was given authority and the keys to assist in opening up the gates of hades, or the passageway for the spirits in hades to leave that place of inprisonment.
And it is not Joseph Smith who established the restored church. It is Christ who used Joseph Smith and others to restore the church. It is not Joseph Smith’s success. It is Christ’s.
Anybody have a comment to the actual topic of this thread?
Thanks.
jayjay,
I am rejoicing here in Christ Jesus that He has protected you, through the Holy Spirit, from this…………………………may I say it? CULT!!!!
It’s not just the doctrine or the history of the Mormon church that makes it a cult. It’s the tactics they use to love bomb and seduce people into joining. I hope MikeR hops in here because he has some good insights into this.
Pleas stick around here and continue to post. God is doing something awesome here on MC. I’ve been posting here for going on five years and have often wondered, if we’re doing any good. Reaching anyone. Just lately the Lord has confirmed that His purpose is being done.
Just let me tell you, you’ve given me a burning in the bosom today. It’s better than a chocolate frosted doughnut.
Please, please stick around here and continue to post.
I am soooo pumped at what God is doing!
Falcon,
Haha! Ya it is. This week I would say has been the greatest as far as spiritual growth just because I no longer have the the what if the church is question in my mind and I am open to the things that God wants to reveal to me.
I didnt realize the importance of Gods timing until MistT asked me to go into more detail. I had no idea how to sum up everything. As I sat there trying to pinpoint everything I realized how much God was there at every step. I just didnt see it. In february I was relocated for my job to a town 8 hours away from family and friends and 1.5 hours from the closest lds church. The week before I was planning to return to the church as a full active member, I stumble on this site thinking that it was an lds blog site. I was pushing myself so hard to understand every detail and have confirmation on every piece of doctrine that I felt like God was ignoring me and didnt care about me finding the truth. Then I met this guy who is fluent in Hebrew and understands the culture and traditions of the people in biblical times. He explains how the trinity is revealed in the language and with that all the other scripture that Rickb and Rikkij and others here showed me just fell into place. It wasnt one person or one event. It was a series of events than came about in perfect timing.
When Jaxi opened fire on me the last time I posted it really made me step back and think about things. I had to go back and read my posts. I couldnt get what she was saying but then I realized that I walking a fine line of pushing my beliefs into atheism or universalism just because every detail about all of scripture wasnt falling into place in MY way and in MY timing.
I dont have answers to everything yet and I still have questions about many things. Im sure if we all were to sit down and have a discussion over coffee about things that there would still be points that we wouldnt agree on. I heard a pastor on the radio this morning say that its ok to have doubts and questions about our faith but when we do we must seek out answers to those questions in scripture. If we just hide those questions we bury ourselves in pretending and that isnt truth at all.
FOF,
Im not sure if you were being sarcastic or what but based on falcons response im going to say it was sarcastic. The thing is from where im standing today I can for once in my life say I know who the one true God is. I have no intention of debating scripture or anything else with you. It wont matter what you or any other member of the church says to me to try and convince me that the lds church is true because I know for certain now that you and I serve two completely different Gods and I know the God that I serve is the creator of All that exists. Who is yours?
Old man,
“It isnât a question of which Gospel is correct; for the claims of the LDS to be true it would have to mean that Christ failed to establish His church or to hold it together”
This is exactly what Joseph Smith claimed!
“God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I AM THE ONLY MAN THAT HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO KEEP A WHOLE CHURCH TOGETHER SINCE THE DAYS OF ADAM. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor JESUS ever did it. I BOAST THAT NO MAN HAS EVER DID SUCH A WORK AS I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).
This is the man Mormons follow and revere. No Christian would EVER blaspheme Jesus this way.
FOF,
LDS apostates such as myself, jaxi, johnyboy, etc… will be going to outer darkness according to your prophets.
“These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever.” (See D&C 76:28-35, 44-48.)
Here’s a few interesting quotes by LDS leadership about us woeful apostates:
âI say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath [sic] my bowie knife, and conquer or die [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.]. Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet [Voices, generally, âgo it, go it.â]. If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up.]. Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.â
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 83
â…it was the imperative duty of the Church to obey the word of Joseph Smith, or the presidency, without question or inquiry, and that if there were any that would not, they should have their throats cut from ear [to] ear.â
– Sidney Rigdon letter to Apostle Orson Hyde, October 21, 1844, in Nauvoo Neighbor, December 4, 1844; see also Quinn, Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, p. 94
âPunishment by death is the penalty for refusing to obey the orders of the Priesthood. I knew of many men being killed in Nauvoo by the Danites. It was then the rule that all enemies of the Prophet Joseph should be killed, and I knew of many a man who was quietly put out of the way by the orders of Joseph and his apostles while the church was there.â
– Elder John D. Lee (1812 â 1877), Danite and adopted son of Brigham Young, John D. Lee Diary.
“Anybody have a comment to the actual topic of this thread?”
I watched the entire thing. You seem to forget that Joseph Smith’s Mother was actually there and a lot of what was quoted was from her. It’s easy to see that Joseph took from his environment through the whole religion that he created. Just look at others who were claiming to have the same experiences that he could easily have read about and copied. I have often said that it would be interesting to see what would have happened in Mormonism if he had not been killed. Prominent Mormon men were already leaving because of the weirdness he was preaching and his polygamy.
Jayjay,
That is so awesome! I didnt do any research when I joined the church and I didnt know anything about god or scripture outside of my childhood sunday school experiences. I still am learning and realizing how much I have to learn. Good for you for not allowing yourself to fall into that pit of confusion and lies!
cattyjane,
A few years ago my sister-in-law came to me concerned because a friend of hers was getting the blitz from a couple of Mormon missionaries. I gave her a copy of “Beyond Mormonism-an elder’s story” by Jim Spencer. The woman got through half of the book and cancelled her meetings with the Mormons.
She told my sister-in-law, “Everything in that book was happening to me.” It’s the techniques and the push to get people into the baptismal tank, the pressure, that is one aspect of what cults do. The last thing the MM want is for a person to get information. They’ve convinced themselves that the LDS church is true and any information to the contrary is of the devil.
I’m so happy that jayjay was able to get a clear view of what this cult is all about.
FoF,
<"Instead, you are focusing on other things. And that is precisely what I have tried to point out previously. And refusing to focus on what is immediately in front of you allows you to make claims like the critics always do- âthere is no evidence for the Book of Mormon,â or all the other standard statements made by critics."
I am sorry that I did not care to engage you in discussion about the video. Just because it is critical of Mormon's history doesn't mean that I agree with all that Dan Vogel says. Why do I need to focus on his research? I might even agree with you on some points. The biggest point and the ONLY point that I care to discuss on this site is that Mormonism is a false gospel. I don't need to support all that DanVogel says to make that point.
<"And verse 13 of the passage you quote above is actually saying the opposite of what you are suggesting. It reads, âTherefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.â That sentences is not saying that false ministers present a gospel based on works. Rather, it is saying that false ministers will be judge by their works. FYI."
Now who is putting words in whose mouth. All I said is that it sounds like Mormonism. I agree with you that it is saying, "false ministers will be judged by their works." Does Mormonism not teach that their end will be according to their works? If you really read the writings of Paul, you will see that your works cannot save you. For one to be judged solely by their works is sad indeed. False ministers teaching a false gospel have to be judged by their works because they do not live by faith.
<"And I am not shifting any burden of proof. You quoted the passages and suggest they applied to the church and our prophets. I am challenging your claim."
You have made no such challenge. I am saying that I apply those scriptures to anyone that is preaching Christ. I am not only applying them to Mormonism. Those scriptures prove a lot. If someone preaches a gospel other than what we have been already given we are to test it. In all my
"diligent study, application of the principles taught, fasting, and ceaseless prayer," I have not found that Mormonism passes the test. Please explain to my why you think it passes the Biblical test by applying those scriptures and to Mormonism. I am not saying that all angels giving messages are bad. I am saying that we are to test the claims of those messengers. To say that these scriptures don't apply to all faiths claiming themselves to be Christian, including Mormonism, I believe would be some of that "Mormon bubble talk" everyone mentions.
" And when did I ever suggest anybody take my word or Joseph Smithâs word âfor it?â Never."
I am left to assume that I am to take your word for it because I asked for an explanation on why those scriptures don't apply to the LDS Church and your only response was that the LDS Church is the true Church. Well, I guess that settles it. I'm a LDS believer again. Come on. You said to Brewed, "Presenting all that I have uncovered and learned over the course of thousands of hours of research and decades of investment is literally impossible to do here." It took all that for you to discover that Mormonism is the historical Church. Wow, I can show it's not in much less time. Sounds like someone is doing a lot to try to convince themselves. Honestly, if I was an investigator that response wouldn't fly with me. And then we got stories of missionaries telling jayjay that if you like the first bite of ice cream you will like the whole thing. Not if I keep eating it to discover the bottom is filled with worms. So you won't share your research. And missionaries don't share any either. We are all left to the warm and fuzzies.
FMM,
Oops I was reading your post and just below it falcon responded to fof and i mixed you guys up. Thanks for your comment! Im glad!
FOF,
Disregard my last comment to you. I was reading quickly and got you and fmm mixed up.
FMM,
Oops I was reading your post and just below it falcon responded to fof and i mixed you guys up. Thanks for your comment! Im glad!
FOF,
Disregard my last comment to you. I was reading quickly and got you and fmm mixed up. Phone posting is bad sometimes.
FMM,
It s really difficult for me to write that response to mistt. When I read that scripture in Ezekiel about Jesus being the good shepherd and how all these false shepherd lead the sheep astray I was exactly like you. I was shaking with emotion and nearly in tears because I could sense how angry god must become with these false prophets and teachers. Thank God that he loved us enough to be the messiah we needed and to be that Good Shephard.
FoF,
Thank you so much for saying this, “Of course, the response from me is that this angel Moroni did not come to preach another gospel, but the original and eternal gospel of Christ. And both of us are left with the question we started with- which gospel is the correct gospel.”
Now, will you take the next logical step unlike your companions and admit that we are both serving 2 totally different Jesus? Cattyjane made a very astute observation when she said, “I know for certain now that you and I serve two completely different Gods and I know the God that I serve is the creator of All that exists. Who is yours?”
Also, the last blog I gave the same question 3 times so that you could justify the claims you were making. Answering these questions now will certainly help your arguments about the truthfulness of the LDS church and the most important book in the world which is the keystone of your religionâyea, even more important than the Bible. Here again is that question:
“You said, âyou are very unlikely to be familiar with the best LDS scholarship on the Book of Mormonâ and you said earlier, âThe scholarship available from LDS researchers is light-years ahead of that from the critics.â Now you said, âI fully believe in took place in Mesoamerica.â Show me just one artifact or one piece of ancient writing that is either Jaredite or Lehite.”
Kate,
You quoted Joseph Smith bragging. Have you ever looked at the context of that statement? Because it matters.
Just before Joseph made the statement you quoted, he quoted Paul, “Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, that I also may boast a little. That which I am speaking, I am not speaking it as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting. Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also. For you, being so wise, bear the foolish gladly. (2 Corinthians 11:16-19, NASB)
Following this statement, Paul then brags and boasts to contrast himself with those at Corinth.
Joseph is using the same literary tool in the setting of his own persecution. But the critics take this statement out of context and make him look as boastful as possible. Context matters.
It is not our belief that anybody who leaves the church goes to outer darkness. Check out the doctrine on this found in D&C 76 for clarification.
You comment on my research on the church and history. First, LDS are criticized for not knowing enough about history, the scriptures, doctrine, etc. Now, you claim that my research shows that I have to go to great lengths to justify my faith. Can’t win with you guys.
Each of us have the responsibility and commission to study and learn as much as we possiblly can. The church clearly teaches this principle. If people fall away in ignorance, they can blame nobody but themselves. I am not interested in trying to convince anybody of the truth. My intention is to show the shallow nature of the arguments from our critics and to provide a response to those arguments. We must each answer for ourselves and our choices.
It is interesting to see the swing in positions that the critics go through. First, they claim LDS don’t know anything and are blind and ignorant. Then, when somebody provides a response to the arguments, like the one in the video from Vogel, the critics change gears and say that none of that matters anyway.
People leave the church when they go to a particular ward and don’t experience what they think they should experience. It is such a position of dependency and weakness. It is no different than an ancient Israelite switching to the religion of the Canaanites because they had an experience or set of experiences they didn’t like in their synogogue, etc. Each of us must be willing to stand on our own. Hence, the need to study these things meaningfully and deeply. It is so symbolic that those who have their names removed from the church most often go online and download a statement from somebody else to request that their name be removed from the church. They feel so independent and empowered, but in reality they are following quite blindly.
My intention is not to convince anybody who posts here of anything. It is to provide another perspective and additional information for objective observers who note the bias and skewed analysis of those here.
Ultimately, the test for all of us is whether we will recognize and listen to the voice of the Shepherd. Excuses will not enable us to shift responsbility to any other. And I could not be more content with that reality.
FoF,
“People leave the church when they go to a particular ward and donât experience what they think they should experience. It is such a position of dependency and weakness. It is no different than an ancient Israelite switching to the religion of the Canaanites because they had an experience or set of experiences they didnât like in their synogogue, etc. Each of us must be willing to stand on our own. Hence, the need to study these things meaningfully and deeply. It is so symbolic that those who have their names removed from the church most often go online and download a statement from somebody else to request that their name be removed from the church. They feel so independent and empowered, but in reality they are following quite blindly.”
I am rolling with laughter now. This is one of the most presumptuous, false, and completely ignorant statements you have posted. I left the LDS Church because I finally studied things meaningfully and deeply. You have got to be kidding me. Yea, let me risk my marriage, friendship and family relationships, my salvation and that of my children because I didn’t like my ward. What a shallow statement. When I requested my name to be removed I wrote an 8 page letter all on my own like a big girl. Lol. It could have been longer. I was keeping it short.
<"My intention is not to convince anybody who posts here of anything."
The thing is there are many people that read these posts that don't actually post themselves and what you have demonstrated is that you like to pick at details but leave the big questions unanswered. People notice this. Mormon apologists use it all the time to divert from the issue. You are claiming that the issue is the video and you would gladly like to peck at that to death. The issue and overriding point of every post on this blog is that Mormonism is a false gospel. If you can't handle the big questions like "show us that this is the historic church," and that scriptures saying to beware of "false prophets and false gospels" doesn't apply to you, than what you really end up doing is looking is petty.
FoF,
You said, “Ultimately, the test for all of us is whether we will recognize and listen to the voice of the Shepherd.” Then earlier you said, “And both of us are left with the question we started with- which gospel is the correct gospel.” So, would you mind letting us know how your “gospel” and your “shepherd” are truth and our Gospel and our Shepherd are false?
Also, would you mind answering my question that I have asked 4 times already? It addresses some bombastic claims from you and I think it would help answer the first question. Here it is again:
You said, âyou are very unlikely to be familiar with the best LDS scholarship on the Book of Mormonâ and you said earlier, âThe scholarship available from LDS researchers is light-years ahead of that from the critics.â Now you said, âI fully believe it took place in Mesoamerica.â Would you show me just one artifact or one piece of ancient writing that is either Jaredite or Lehite?
FoF,
“People leave the church when they go to a particular ward and donât experience what they think they should experience. It is such a position of dependency and weakness.”
This is your own shallow opinion. I never left the church for this reason. I was reading an Ensign article on proof that the BoA is true. Of course there was no “proof” offered but it did get me looking at the facsimiles which I admit I had never really seen before. Now this was a old Ensign that I dug out of a huge stack that I had saved. Why did I pick that particular one? Why did I open up to that particular page and article? I know why, do you? That started a 4 year intense study of my LDS religion. For the first year I poured over LDS publications including the Journal of Discourses and it didn’t take me long in that to discover what an evil, hateful man Brigham Young was. I wouldn’t look at anything that wasn’t church approved. My ward had nothing to do with any of it. Was I ever spiritually fed at church while I was LDS? No. I had more spiritual feeding in one Sunday from my Christian church, but this is not why I left. I left before I ever attended a Christian church. It had nothing to do with the experiences I had at my ward and everything to do with the true and living God of the Bible.
Just before Joseph made the statement you quoted, he quoted Paul, âAgain I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, that I also may boast a little. That which I am speaking, I am not speaking it as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting. Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also. For you, being so wise, bear the foolish gladly.”(2 Corinthians 11:16-19, NASB)
Please show me where this is written. What is your source? Who said Joseph Smith was doing as Paul when he said this?
Taken off of lds.org:
“To become a son of perdition one must sin against the Holy Ghost, but before that is possible, one must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Elder Melvin J. Ballard explained that âunto the Holy Ghost has been given the right and the privilege of manifesting the truth unto men as no other power will. So that when he makes a man see and know a thing he knows it better than he shall ever know anything else; and to sin against that knowledge is to sin against the greatest light there is, and consequently commit the greatest sin there is.â (Millennial Star, 11 Aug. 1932, pp. 499â500.)
“The Prophet Joseph Smith asked, concerning those who become sons of perdition, âWhat must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.â (Teachings, p. 358.)
âIn the realms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness, where there is no light, Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with those of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration. They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent.â (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 125.)
I did receive the LDS Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands and I believed in it’s false god and it’s false Christ. I have denounced all of that. According to your own prophets I am a “son of perdition” and I have lost the power of regeneration according to your prophet Spencer Kimball. I denounce your god and your Christ, I denounce the assumed Holy Ghost that was conferred upon my head when I was 8 years old by a false priesthood. I think most Mormons who leave do the same. We don’t believe a word of it, we are LDS or Mormon apostates, denying the Mormon god and Mormon Christ that was revealed to the prophet Joseph Smith and we deny the Mormon plan of salvation claimed by Joseph Smith and all prophets who follow. I don’t know how much more clear I can be on this. According to your church, we apostates will live in outer darkness with Satan.
FoF
May I remind you, referring to your complaint of people not keeping to the topic, that it was you who told Jaxi that her quotes proved nothing & I was merely responding to what you said, so please donât accuse me of not keeping to the topic.
You say
âAnd it is not Joseph Smith who established the restored church. It is Christ who used Joseph Smith and others to restore the church. It is not Joseph Smithâs success. It is Christâs.â
Logically, as Christ is now succeeding in this ârestorationâ, it must mean that His first attempt was NOT a success, i.e. it was a failure. So, will this second attempt be permanent or will He need to have a third or even a fourth attempt?
You say we make huge assumptions when it is in fact the Mormon church that makes huge assumptions. The LDS âassumeâ that the beliefs of 2 billion people are wrong without even trying to understand what those beliefs are. That, my friend, is an assumption of monumental proportions.
âYou suggest that an apostasy would have resulted in such a meaningless nature of His atonement.â
I donât suggest anything; It is only if the heretical doctrines of your church are true that those 1800 years could be given any meaning, if it isnât true then all the millions of people who have lived & died in that period were given a false hope.
I am well aware of the meaning of Matthew 16:18 I am well aware of Hades, of Sheol & of Gehenna & your attempt at explaining that verse does not in any way invalidate what I said.
Christ said He WOULD BUILD HIS CHURCH the Church being the body of true believers. He Gave the Holy Spirit in order to ensure its preservation but Mormons seem unable or unwilling to understand this. Christ is saying that all the powers of Hell would not succeed in overthrowing HIS Church. The true Church is known as the Bride of Christ; do you believe that Christ would desert the Bride he died for?
Finally & this is definitely off topic, I didnât come in here to discuss theology or for intellectual debate; I came here in the hope of helping those who were unsure of where they stand in Gods plan, & I help no one by giving the impression that the Gospel of Christ requires a degree in theology for it to be understood. If that kind of intelligence is required then obviously the Gospel of Christ never was intended for the vast majority of mankind. For the Christian the Gospel is simple but in Mormonism only a very few understand what its about. The laity must do as they are told without ever knowing with any certainty what it is they believe. Rather like my Ex wife, a member for close to 50 years yet she understands very little of your doctrines, she simply does as she is told.
“A being who appears and represents himself or herself as an angel from God is not necessarily the devil appearing as an angel of light. ”
Indeed, this is true, but we are also told to test them.
And perhaps I am wrong, but it seems FoF wants to change the subject to that which he is more comfortable. He really does avoid certain questions, which in and of itself is interesting. He avoids addressing answers he does not like, and has accused us numerous times of avoiding his questions and points.
Folks, read through, and if we are missing something, let us know.
I have just come out publicly and denied the god, christ, holy ghost and the plan of salvation of Mormonism. I traded those things for the true and living Christian God of the Bible. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity. I follow the true Christ, the traditional Christ of the Bible and I have to tell you, there is nothing like it. There is peace and freedom in Him. TBM don’t understand this Christ or this God, that’s why it’s like talking to a brick wall. The Bible as it is doesn’t make sense to them unless they twist and spin it. Once we get God right it’s amazing how the rest just falls into place. Contrary to what I was taught in Mormonism, The Bible and traditional Christianity is a beautiful thing!
“Once we get God right itâs amazing how the rest just falls into place.”
Amen. Its pretty simple, really. We can make it quite complicated, if we want, but at its core is simply believing in the God of the Bible.
Please document all of the “third and fourth hand” accounts that he uses. Some were a decade after the fact, (because Jo didn’t publish the BOM until 1830 and it was three years later that people started seriously looking into his past – and by that time he was claiming it was an “angel”) but MOST were Palmyra NEIGHBORS that grew up with Jo. This is a common tactic of those like Hugh Nibley and Mormon Apologists. In fact, you gave your own sources, like Ma Smith, who wrote her history in 1845, many DECADES after the events, so by your own logic we should throw out all of her statements as unreliable. Also, Jo didn’t write his own history until 1832, and he left out a WHOLE BUNCH OF THINGS. His 1834 history was no better. He did not write a serious history until 1838, some 18 years after his claimed 1820 vision. The affidavits that appeared in Mormonism Unveiled were first person statements (most of them) with some second hand information. But many of the statements of those have been verified by Mormon sources like Joseph Knight. Your argument is ridiculous. It’s up to you now, to go through Dan’s video and tell us source by source what is wrong with them.
Sigh. D&C 76 came before the Temple Endowments. Brigham Young said that those who broke those would be sons of perdition.
Old Man,
Allow me to play the part of an LDS apologist.
You said, “Logically, as Christ is now succeeding in this ârestorationâ, it must mean that His first attempt was NOT a success, i.e. it was a failure. So, will this second attempt be permanent or will He need to have a third or even a fourth attempt?” Clearly you have never read your Bible, for if you had you would have read Daniel 2:44 where the Lord said he would “set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, … and it shall stand for ever.” And the only true church of LDS, inc. rejects the notion of a second apostasy: “The Church will never again be taken from the earth. It’s mission is to take the truth to every person” (Gospel Principles, p.114). If you would simply read the Book of Mormonâthe most correct book on earthâand pray about it then you would know that LDS, inc. is the one true Church and that it’s interpretation of the Bible is the one true interpretation. Furthermore, if all of you apostates would have only continued reading you Book of Mormon you would not be in this miserable and pitiful state that you have enslaved yourselves to.
And that, my friends, is me playing the part of an LDS apologist. Pretty good, huh?
But seriously though Old Man, if this is what Mormon Coffee looks while you’re on hiatus I’m curious to see how it would look while you were fully active! LOL, Sorry for being difficult, but I figured I’d poke Old Man with a stick one last time.
FOF
I understand your frustration at the direction of this conversation I realize it has drifted for the original topic but it seems to me that the Holy Spirit is leading us to celebrate his mighty works. Who am I to resist the Holy Spirit in this matter.
There will be plenty of time to talk about the circumstances surrounding the origin of the BOM but right now I would rather praise my Lord for what he is doing in the lives of his children.
Right now I’m really not interested in a counterfeit message given by a supposed angel
Right now I rather talk about a true message preached by the Holy Spirit that angles long to look into.
quote:
It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.
(1 Peter 1:12)
end quote:
You say,
Christ didnât fail to establish His church. Mortal men failed to live up to His teachings and follow Him.
I say,
The stories posted here over the last few days have proved beautifully once again that contrary to what you’ve been taught the increase of God’s kingdom is not in anyway dependent on the actions of Mortal men.
In response to this amazing truth
I can only say
quote:
“Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”
(Revelation 5:9b-10&12)
halleluiah and amen
peace
you said,
Mistaken test,
You said
I want to say, amen to this, but also want to add, I wish more people would grasp this truth.
I cannot tell you how many times people get on me for my style or approach in how I say things.
Some people act like because I am blunt and tell it like it is or I speak my mind God cannot or will not use me. Well thank God I dont listen to these people, If I did, God would have never been able to use me to speak to Cattyjane and He would have simply used some one else.
Falcon kindly nicknamed me “The Hammer” and God uses the hammer and uses other tools. I seem to recall the apostle Paul before being ship wrecked he had a (I told you so) Moment. Cattyjane will tell you more I’m sure, but I never held back, never watered anything down, never said to myself, Ghee, someone might get offended at how I talk, I guess I better tell Cattyjane, sorry I cannot talk to you since someone does not like the way I say things.
And let me add, If some one reading this gets the idea I am being mean for stating this, I will say, I’m not being mean, but if the truth hurts, then get over it I say. Over all I believe God used me, He gets the glory, not me. Some people just need a hammer in the lives, Other can be the tissue in the body of Christ. They are so soft and tender that they can wipe the tears and snot up. Rick (The hammer)
RickB,
Ya some of us are just really hard headed and prideful. Its very difficult for me to admit when im wrong or admit ive been misled about something I feel so confident im right about. Im that person that has to be beat with the truth and have my face shoved into the reality of it a million times before I finally realize it cant be denied. You definately left me without wiggle room and ya you are blunt but you always made me think about things. Jaxi made me super upset with the kick in the ribs that she gave me a few weeks ago but I was headed in a bad direction and wasnt even aware of it. I swore I would never come back here again. Im sure your not done beating me over the head yet because I have a lot of things to work through but the worst is over. Im glad you didnt hold back. Sometimes it would make me mad but it obviously led me here.
Cattyjane,
I used you as an example of how God spoke to you through me. I said what I said because some people have this idea, and pretty much told me so, that God simply cannot use me because of how I say and do things. You are evidence that these people have no clue.
Sad as it is, I have heard this saying a million times, Christians are the only religion where we shout are wounded. And also as sad as it is, we as believers really persecute our own. My pastor as well as other pastor I know have said the worst attacks against them as pastors have come from other believers.
It’s simply a sad fact of life. For some strange reason people either dont know some of the teachings in the Bible, like Jesus said, you fools, or you brood of vipers, and made a whip or cords. Or that the apostles said stuff like, May you be blind for a time, and blindness came upon the man, and other such things. We could argue, Jesus and the apostles were not very loving or Christ like by doing those things. Sadly, some will reply with, They can say and do those things, but we cannot.
Lets be honest, if you come to a saving knowledge of Jesus and dont go to hell, would it be better that you avoid hell because I was blunt and honest with you? Or do we let you go to hell because some believer cried about how I spoke the truth to you? And know I am not dont with you, I will be sending you a reply to some of your questions later. And as you pointed out in private, Me and my wife do this and spend all this time, weeks and months with you and others out of love. If I did not have the love of Jesus then I would not be here sharing and taking the time to do it in private.
Also I point these issues out even if it offends because it needs to be addressed. People think and believe this way, so lets show them their ideas are misguided and they are not to play the Holy spirt in people lives, leave that to God. And in reality if you have an issue with the way a brother or sister address someone, Pray to God and ask Him to deal with that person. Your living proof that a hammer can be used. Was in not the Bible that says, God uses the foolish things to confound the wise. I proclaim I am one of the foolish things and the wise people are frustrated by this. Their earthly wisdom says, Rick’s not being PC. Yet PC leads people to hell.
“Just before Joseph made the statement you quoted, he quoted Paul, âAgain I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, that I also may boast a little. ”
I wanted FoF to show me this but I will post the entire thing for all to see what context this was really said. Joseph said this just before the statement I quoted:
“My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.”
It seems to me that the reason Joseph read II Corinthians is to compare his persecution with Paul’s persecution. BTW this is also where he lies about his polygamy.