(Starts at about 8m45s)
Cracks in the Mormon Dam. Some water already beginning to gush.
Atheist LDS current mission presidents. Unbelieving return-MP’s. Doubting General Authorities. A General Authority that stops BYU’s NAMIR/FARMS from publishing a piece against the agnostic-in-longtime-LDS-sheeps-clothing John Dehlin. Daniel Peterson fired and FARMS abandoning unabashed apologetics. Mormonism’s greatest expert on the Book of Abraham, John Gee, says the LDS Church doesn’t stand or fall on the Book of Abraham, and has offered no credible apologetic for the fraud. Extremely few identifiable up-and-coming LDS apologists, and even most of those seem to have liberalized their Mormonism. LDS philosophers abandoning traditional LDS beliefs. LDS theologians and authors embarrassed by the teachings of their own apostles and prophets.
Palmer claims that approximately 45% of return-LDS-missionaries no longer have a temple recommend within five years of returning. Speaking of the unbelief going upstream, Palmer says, “I think it’s beginning to penetrate the upper echelons of the Church.” Lest we jump ahead of ourselves, he says, “And I emphasize ‘beginning.'”
He even says, “I know at least 10 LDS Seminary and Institute teachers who think like I do.”
“I had a daughter and her husband and their two boys leave the Church two months ago. And the answer that they got is, well, ‘Even if it’s false, stay anyway.'” This is what I call, “Practical Mormon atheism.”
Mormonism is atrophying. “It’s like a balloon in the corner that you walk by every three days, and it’s getting less vibrant…”
More and more falling out of the LDS nest. Will they land on Jesus? Or will they go from Mormon atheism (yes, I said Mormon atheism) to secular atheism or pagan atheism, etc.?
Some fellow evangelicals have argued that this state of affairs call for a retreat — that we ought to stop critically engaging Mormonism and treat Mormons in general as transitioners. That we ought to simply encourage Mormonism to gradually, not definitively, mainstream into evangelicalism, even without integrity, even enjoying the delusion that Mormonism has always been evangelical at its core.
I say: Welcome, encourage, teach the transitioners as transitioners, and be aware of the shifts taking place, but don’t prematurely put up the banner. Increase the pressure of critically engaging Mormonism. Increase the maturity and depth of our intellectual critique of Mormonism. Increase the spread of knowledge of “unauthorized” LDS history. Increase the clear delineation between traditional Mormonism and Christianity. And increase the demand that persons of influence in Mormonism take their non-traditional positions with open and honest integrity (not whitewashing them as mere changes of “emphasis”, or as mere re-articulations of traditional positions). All the while gently encouraging Mormons, at an individual level, to consider the Jesus and the gospel of the Bible, to visit a local Christian church, and to take what is good with them as migrants to a new religious territory, but to definitively “jump ship.”
When I discovered the truth about the LDS Church I was pretty close to becoming a Mormon atheist. Some of it was because I wasn’t sure I could trust anyone again. I was just going to continue on my Mormon way but not do any of the extra stuff like tithing and temple going. I would just keep on going in my happy Mormon life. After all I knew what leaving would mean, it would mean turning my relationships upside down. I decided still give God a chance and Christ a chance, to study Christianity, read my New Testament, and pray. Yeah, I could have kept living my happy Mormon life, but if there was truth to be known about God, I wanted to know it. I found that Christ really is the way, the truth, and the life. We know the Father through His Son, not through Joseph Smith. The Holy Spirit has stayed with the Church here on earth since Pentecost. And once you have the truth you must act, which for me meant that I needed to remove my name. The process was tiring. It didn’t have to be, I wanted to jump through every hoop the LDS Church asked so they knew the truth of why I was leaving. The 7 hours of interviews with the Stake President would have been difficult had I not already found the One True God. Many statements were made implying that if you can’t trust us, you can’t trust any one. I can definitely see that the LDS Church is somewhat responsible for the large numbers of atheist apostates. One of the last things said in my meeting after bringing up most of my issues with the LDS Church was, this all comes down to what is the best story. Have you always existed as divine and to be a god or are you merely a creation. I was shocked that this had become all about preference and not about truth. All about me, and not about God. Personally, I have great joy in being God’s creation.
My earlier post about how Mormonism is an appeal to man’s pride got me thinking about an Ensign article I read this month. Sorry about the length of this post and that it is kind of off topic. I hope my thoughts are beneficial to someone.
I would like to use an example for this months LDS Ensign. The title is “Living for the Eternities.”
http://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/07/living-for-the-eternities?lang=eng
This article was for the young adults. Below are some of the quotes from this talk.
“You learned of the laws that would allow you to progress and advance. You followed those laws, and thus you were entitled to come to earth, placing you on a course leading to exaltation, dominion, and godhood.”
“Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection … and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths … and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them” (D&C 132:19–20).
Remember always that if you and your spouse, or future spouse if not yet married, are obedient, you will “have glory added upon [your] heads for ever and ever” (Abraham 3:26)
As you look back upon your proper decision, what do you feel? Exhilaration? A sense of self-mastery or empowerment? Increased confidence before the Lord? Expanded capacity to resist evil? That is power; that is freedom!
You have knowledge of your divine origin. You have full awareness of your divine destiny. I invite you “to rise to the divinity within you”4 and to live not for the moment but rather for the eternities.
You wonderful young adults, you future leaders in the kingdom of God and in society, must not become a casualty in this ageless battle.
Be assured, it is worth your efforts to heed the commandments, for your reward is to return to the presence of God in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom.
This was one of the most prideful articles I have ever read. Where is the humility? Where is the love? Where was God in this article? It was all about obedience and all the power, dominions, progression, advancement, godhood, exaltation, glory, you shall have through your obedience. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in being obedient to God. But this article appeals to man’s pride. His desire to be great and powerful. It is not about obedience because of a love for God. “If you love me, keep my commandments.” It is about being obedient because look how powerful you will be.
I believe there is only one New Testament scripture quoted in the whole article and I think it is misapplied.
“If you consistently resist temptation, it becomes easier to do so—not that the nature of resisting has changed, but your power to do so has increased.3 You can overcome any temptation confronting you (see 1 Corinthians 10:13).”
The scripture really says, ” No temptation[a] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[b] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[c] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
The scripture says that God will help you, not that you have an increase in power. The article conveniently leaves out that God will help you overcome.
My obedience to God is through my faith. My faith in God involves me turning my will towards Him and He gives me the strength to endure and to obey.
To give an example that not everyone will relate to. I have four children. Three I used an epidural. The last one was natural. I wanted to go natural with my first three but I would end up screaming for the drugs. I was trying to take control of the birth, I was confident in my own strength I could do it. I was soooo wrong. I ended up exhausting myself and actually hyperventilating and temporarily losing vision. It was pathetic. I took a course on my last baby that told me that I had to basically give up, relax, trust in my body, it knows what to do and will do it. I basically had to let go of my conscious will for my body and let my natural body do what it was meant to do. It was amazing. I didn’t need drugs and I didn’t scream once. It was actually really fun. I relate this to my Mormon life. I was trying to do everything myself. It was all put on me. But when you have faith and trust in God and turn your will over to God, and say do with my life what you will, “thy will be done,” obedience comes, it just happens. You give your life to God.
To go even further off topic, another Ensign article that makes my blood boil is the one entitles “You Can’t Come Up Here.”
http://www.lds.org/ensign/print/2013/07/latter-day-saint-voices?lang=eng&clang=eng
It’s about her not getting to see her husband who is sitting in first class. Her husband has sadly passed away and now she is trying really hard to live in such a away that she won’t be told she can’t see her husband because he is in the “first class” “Celestial Kingdom,” and she might end up in some other “economy class” kingdom.
I go through the Ensign every month. I like to know what my family is reading. Because of an Ensign article last month, they actually believe through their covenants they will be able to pull us up into the Celestial Kingdom with them, granted we suffer terribly for our sins. The Ensign is a treasure trove of misinformation. Taking quotes out of context, misapplying scripture, deceitful statements… If you can get past all the puff pieces and actually check content, it’s one crazy magazine.
Amen!
There is nothing better than being a creation of God.
Its interesting to read the comments in Aaron’s piece. I am not sure the cracks are as big as stated, but do believe that there are probably more active members in the church with doubts than the church would like to admit.
I’ve found, in my discussions here and with in-person conversations with LDS, that most LDS know less about our faith than we know of theirs. Its an interesting thought given that they like to complain about how misunderstood they are. I do encourage all LDS to learn about Christianity. Be diligent about finding out about our Jesus, and what he actually did.
The misconceptions they have keep coming out, and it becomes clearer to me everyday that LDS have severe bias against our Christ, even though they say they don’t. Its as if they are more concerned with how they appear to others than what they actually believe.
It took me several years of study before I decided to leave. I was angry and refused to be active at church. My visiting teachers never missed a month though. I would just tune out when they got to the message for the month. There were invitations to ward activities put in the door off and on but I ignored those. When I sent in my letter the phone calls from the ward clerk started coming. Thank goodness for caller ID 🙂 I still think the leaders of the church are arrogant when it comes to resignation letters. I asked for no contact. They do not care about boundaries at all. I was one who used a form letter because I didn’t care to waste any more time than I had to on this. I didn’t answer the phone when the clerk called because I knew he wanted to set up a meeting with my bishop. How arrogant. No contact means no contact. After many unanswered phone calls my bishop called me from his work (Seriously? From work?) I didn’t recognize the number so I answered. He preceded to interview me over the phone, again, how arrogant. I would not have sat through any amount of time in a bishop or stake president’s office. Once I knew the truth, it all seemed rather silly.
I love reading the experiences of others who have left. We all do it differently and in a way that is most comfortable to us. I am lucky because I didn’t have to worry about losing important relationships, friendships or my job. I know there are a lot of LDS who face that and I am truly sorry for that. How hard that must be. Do I have people who look at me differently or who think I’ve gone off the deep end? Absolutely, but I don’t care. The only one I was worried about was my Mom and she did have a hard time at first but she’s good now.
It’s amazing how the church gets into every nook and cranny of your life. No wonder it is so hard to work through everything. No wonder it ruins relationships when someone leaves.
If I could say one thing to someone just starting this process it would be that a relationship with Jesus is more beautiful than you can imagine. Just look to Him and everything will fall into place.
Looking back now (6 years since I started studying) all I can say is what a waste of time and energy. If I could do it again, knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t sweat the small stuff. The history, lies, whitewashing, back and forth doctrines, crazy prophet uncles, all of it is really the small stuff when you look at the whole picture. God is good and He is there for us all, all we need to do is ask 🙂
MJP,
“I’ve found, in my discussions here and with in-person conversations with LDS, that most LDS know less about our faith than we know of theirs.”
When I was LDS, all I knew about Christianity was what the LDS church taught. I’m sure you’ve read all of that. I never once studied Christianity, it was an apostate religion. This is why I am just floored that Mormons INSIST on being called Christians. I am still learning new stuff about Christianity and I have put in hours of study. Christianity is NOTHING like what I was taught by the LDS church.
I had the Jehovah’s Witnesses come to my house once ( while LDS) I let them in because I had gone to High School with one of the girls. The girl that was with her told me that as a Mormon I was not a Christian. She told me I believed in a different Christ so therefore I was not a Christian. I never referred to myself as a Christian, I always said I was LDS or Mormon. For some reason being LDS or Mormon isn’t the same now days as it was then. The paperwork at every new doctor I visited, or took my kids to, asked religious preference and I always put LDS. Everyone I know puts LDS, not Christian. They have always been 2 different religions to me. I had to have been taught that somewhere…..
Kate,
I know you may feel that all of the time you put into the process of leaving Mormonism was a waste but it was probably necessary for you to do so; intellectually, emotionally and spiritually.
I’m sure there are Mormonism who simply walk away from the religion because it’s a drag. They just aren’t into it. It didn’t take.
Lynn Wilder talks about the enormous time commitment that was involved in being a Mormon. In my walk with Christ, I don’t do any religion. That will shock Mormons who are use to serving the one true church with callings and all of the other fiddle faddle that goes into the Mormon system.
The blockade of Mormonism is like an ice dam. When the warmth of the Holy Spirit melts the ice of resistance, the pure water will flow. There will be a time of enlightenment for Mormons. What will be needed are people ready and equipped to assist them in there transition.
……and the problem is, what is real and what is not real in Mormonism. I mentioned that Brigham Young, he of Adam-god fame, is said by Mormons not to know what he was talking about. The prophet didn’t know who God is? Quite an admission. Then there’s another of my all time favs Bruce McConkie who wrote the seminal book on Mormon Doctrine. The reason that cracks are appearing is because Mormonism is just plain unreliable, besides being untrue.
“Author David John Buerger noted in a March 1985 Sunstone article (“Speaking with Authority: The Theological Influence of Bruce McConkie”) that the First Presidency expressed concern in 1960 over the book, claiming that it was “full of errors and misstatements” (p.9). To date I have never seen a list of these so-called errors. Rather, it appears that a major concern was the book’s sharp language, especially regarding the topic of Roman Catholicism. For instance, on page 108 under the heading of Catholicism, the 1958 edition simply read, “See Church of the Devil.” When the book was reprinted in 1966, much of the offensive wording was removed. However as Buerger notes, “over eighty percent of the changes in this second edition involved cosmetic modifications which changed the tone but ultimately not the meaning of the book’s content.”
“Is Mormon Doctrine “full of errors”? Buerger pointed out that there are 607 total citations in Mormon Doctrine and that the person most oft-cited is Mormon founder Joseph Smith (215 times). The second most often quoted person is McConkie’s father-in-law, tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith (178 times). Buerger states that “about 15% of the book’s cited text came from Joseph F. Smith’s Gospel Doctrine; almost 10% came from the Lectures on Faith. Clearly, most Mormons would consider these sources to be authoritative.”
“When he was alive, I noticed that most of McConkie’s public criticisms came from Mormons who held a more liberal view of LDS teaching. However, when McConkie died in April of 1985, it did not take long before I began to hear conservative Mormons speak critically of him, even declaring that the words of this apostle were nothing more than “mere opinion.” One LDS Mormon woman wrote to criticize me for quoting McConkie saying she was counseled not to use his material when preparing her lessons for church. I told her that this seemed like odd advice given the fact that McConkie is often quoted in church publications. Criticizing the dead is an easy sport since rebuttals from the accused are few and far between. It should also be pointed out that I have never heard any Mormon with McConkie’s credentials actually declare that this man’s teaching should not be trusted. In fact, the stature of his public critics pale in comparison.”
http://www.mrm.org/bruce-mcconkie
Falcon,
When I decided not to return to the lds church I wasnt going to remove my name officialy from the records. I didnt think that it would matter to God if there was a little piece of paper sitting somewhere stating that I was a member of the lds church. However, over the past couple of weeks Ive discovered that God cares about every tiny thing that we do in our lives because he loves us that much. I decided that I am in no position to presume what may or may not be important to God. So I figured the best choice would be to request that my name be removed. It just didnt seem right to declare with my mouth the God of Israel and still remain a member of a church that hasnt a clue about who the God of Israel is.
Im ythinking that most Christian churches would love to have former lds members in their congregation simply because most lds already have the heart of service. Yes they may leave their callings at their lds ward but imagine how much greater their blessing to be in service to the true God and use their talents in their new cogregation. Christian churches have very similar callings I think they just dont have the same labels for example primary teachers would be sunday school teachers or whatever title the catechism teachers hold. Just because a person leaves the lds church doesnt mean that their talents are left behind. Who gave those talents to that person? Not the lds church. God did and once that person uses those talents to serve the true God that gave it to them I believe they will magnify as they magnify Him with them.
Falcon,
I’m not so sure I needed to go through all of it. It saddens me to think that so many Mormons are going to start this process or are in this process now. I know the heartache. I did this alone, if there had been just one person who could have told me not to sweat the small stuff , that would have helped me a lot. Just one person who knew what I was going through to tell me just trust in Jesus and the rest will fall into place. When I say waste of time, I mean wasted anger and hurt. Wasted time and sleep over sweating the small stuff. Learning the truth wasn’t a waste of time but the heartache of it all was.
It’s funny but I have had a few friends who are questioning and have come to me. I have seen the familiar anger, One is so angry nothing has helped him, he’s pretty much an Atheist. My nephew is the same. I have one girlfriend who has listened to what I have said about the small stuff and it seems to be helping.
Sometimes I think it’s more productive to teach Jesus rather than point out all the wrongs of Mormonism. I have a friend who’s teenaged daughter is all into Mormonism because of her friends, my friend is at a loss and asked what she should do. I gave her a list of books to give to her daughter but told her to just share the real God of the Bible. Show her the words of Jesus himself. This girl attends an LDS ward and has done for years. She will be able to see that what she learns at church doesn’t line up with what Jesus taught.
I guess what I am trying to say is people shouldn’t have to go through so much heartache while coming to the truth. In the long run it’s Jesus and what he says that matters. Whether or not Joseph Smith had a gun and used it is the small stuff.
Kate, I am just thrilled you have come to know Christ. All the other stuff may or may not matter, but one thing that DOES matter is that you know Christ today.
But I think you may be right to suggest that the best way to address Mormons is to teach them Christ. After all, He is what this all about anyway.
It’s always a blessing to hear the story of ex Mormons who have left Mormonism and yet not
gave up on God by turning to Atheism . I could never imagine what the struggle was like to
find out that Mormonism is not what it has claimed to be . The only thing that I can say to
those out there who are struggling with emotions about who to trust anymore , that these are
normal feelings to have given that you’ve put all your life and soul into following the prophets
of Mormonism and giving allegience to them as spiritual authority in your life , that to doubt
or reject their teachings is to invite God’s judgement on your life etc , is a very real fear to
live under . Jesus warned about false prophets coming in the latter days . False prophets can
damage a person emotionally and spiritually and in doing so can sour a person from trusting
another “religion” , and this is the carnage that false prophets can inflict on the people who
have discovered their deception and left ” God’s organization” . My wife followed such a
prophet practically identical to Mormon prophets in terms of their authoritative claims and
the way the organization served as the ” the ark of safety ” for members . She was nervous
about leaving ” God’s organization” for fear of God’s judgement and loss of salvation . Her
prophet constantly reminded members of that . What she did was to step back and get
alone , she called out to God that she did’nt know what to do or who to trust , she opened a
Bible ( not one published by her organization) and read the Gospel of John . Long story short ,
she discovered who Jesus was and that a simple trust in Him was the Way to acceptance with
God . Just her and Jesus —-no modern day prophet , no membership in a religious organization
for salvation , no more fearing that she had not done enough “field service ” ( putting in the
time going door to door with the “kingdom message ” to meet the standards of her Elders ) .
Sometimes the simple dynamic truths in the New Testament about how a person can find God
and a acceptance from Him , can be old hat to those of us who have never been in a false
prophet led organization and then after leaving the confines of such wondering what to do ,
but verses like Jn 14: 5-6 ; 20:31 , etc are simple , powerful , and emotionally refreshing to
discover the acceptance and salvation available from God — all because of Jesus .
So for those wondering what to do about God , remember Jesus is there waiting to hear from
you , just you and Him alone . It will take time to sort some things out but don’t let that stop
you from taking a step .
Thanks Kate, Jaxi , and the others here who have walked away from a false prophet led
organization and share your stories .
Over the past year as I was seeking out the truth of who God was I became very discouraged because I didn’t understand why God had allowed me to travel this path of confusion. I had seen so many people take up the beliefs that their parents had taught them without question or doubt. I didn’t understand why I was questioning and doubting my faith. Now that I have reached my destination, although I have much to learn still, I can see that it was by the grace of God that I traveled that path because it led me to the truth of who He is. Im currently reading a book and I came across a passage that was quoted in it that really encouraged me. It made me realize that its ok to trust the belief of our parents but that we must also seek out the divine for ourselves. In this way we will be sure to know what is true.
“Why do we say “Our God and the God of our fathers”? There are two sorts of persons who believe in God. The one believes because his faith has been handed down to him by his fathers; and his faith is strong. The other has arrived at faith by dint of searching thought. And this is the difference between the two: the first has the advantage that his faith cannot be shaken, no matter how many objections are raised to it, for his faith is firm because he has taken it over from his fathers. But there is a flaw in it: it is a commandment given by man, and it has been learned without thought or reasoning. The advantage of the second man is that he has reached faith through his own power, through much searching and thinking. But his faith too has a flaw: it is easy to shake it by offering contrary evidence. But he who combines both kinds of faith is invulnerable. That is why we say “Our God,” because of our searching, and “the God of our father,” because of our tradition. And a like interpretation holds when we say “The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”, for this means: Isaac and Jacob did not merely take over the tradition of Abraham, but sought out the divine for themselves.” Saadia
I guess what Im trying to say is that everyone, especially those still in the LDS faith should not be afraid to seek answers to questions that arise about the beliefs in their church. A few of my friends wont seek answers because their entire family has been LDS for many generations. They solely place their trust in the beliefs that have been passed down to them without investigating if they are true or not. I think we are expected to seek out the Almighty on our own as well. We can’t be afraid to walk away from something that we want to be true when the Almighty reveals that it is a lie.
Anyways, Ive said enough. I hope that this will encourage others as it did me.
The posts tonight have been, well, inspired. It has all been very up lifting to me. I think that for anyone questioning Mormonism the pain of leaving and the emotional upheaval testified to is very powerful. But the good news is that you all have found the Lord Jesus Christ, which isn’t based on religion, but based on faith.
I particularly like the testimonies of the Wilder family, particularly Micah. His was the story of presenting the Mormon program to a Baptist pastor and then the pastor asked for an opportunity to present the Christian gospel. Micah said something like the pastor, within minutes, destroyed everything Micah believed. The pastor had walked Micah through the Bible with verses pointing to Jesus as the answer to mankind’s situation.
Micah then spent a year of his mission, after the encounter with the pastor, studying the Bible. He didn’t have to look into all of the material dealing with the failings of the Mormon prophets or the LDS church. Micah studied the NT. His study of God’s Word led him out of Mormonism and into the arms of Jesus.
I remember Andy Watson telling me that he wished he hadn’t spent so much time, money and effort in his pursuit of knowledge regarding Mormonism. He said the basics would have been sufficient. He said his time would have been better spent studying the Bible.
He does have a point.
I can usually find what I want pretty fast by accessing information on the internet regarding the various aspects of Mormonism.
My main focus is, as I’m sure you all have noticed, “Who is Jesus?”.
The reason is that Mormons can become disenchanted with the religious system they are trapped in and get angry when they find out all of the sensational aspects of the LDS history etc. But what needs to happen is that they find Jesus and in finding Him find eternal life. I don’t think they’ll care much about the rest once they find the Lord Jesus Christ.
I’d much rather talk to them about Jesus then polygamy, the ever changing first vision, the Book of Abraham, DNA and the BoM and/or Adam-god.
falcon,
“But what needs to happen is that they find Jesus and in finding Him find eternal life.”
This is what I am thinking more of lately. I have seen first hand what happens to Mormons who don’t turn to Jesus because they don’t know Him. The anger is incredibly ugly. I have one Facebook friend who is this way and honestly he scares me. I don’t know him well, we went to High School together is all, but the comments he’s made to me are scary.
Mormons need to know the true and living Christ of the Bible. They need that net to fall into. My goal in the few situations that I have found myself in with questioning friends is to help them find Jesus first and then discuss all the stuff within Mormonism. In my mind if questioning Mormons would just turn to the NT and forget the rest for awhile, they would be less likely to leave God behind. They’ll probably still have to go through some anger and feelings of betrayal but how much easier all of that is if you trust in Jesus to help you. I looked at all the stuff first and then went to the NT. It would have been so much easier if I would have found Jesus first. Like Micah Wilder.
RE: jaxi’s leading comment:
“I’m gonna be a god!”
There I was sitting in a sacrament meeting listening to a fellow conducting the meeting, and who had just been called to be a counsellor in the bishopric. He had been a member for only about a year or so, but the ward in this rural area seemed to be really scrapping the barrel for people to fill leadership positions. This fellow spoke with a kind of lisp, was marginally employed and came across as someone who might not have had even a very basic high school education. So the visual is this fellow standing at the podium in a suit that looked like it came from a Goodwill store, sporting a bushy mustache, and with very elementary diction and a silly look of glee on his face announcing to all present at some point during his ‘testimony’ or whatever, “I’m gonna be a god!”
I looked at this guy and actually felt embarrassed. And I don’t know for whom more — me or him, but I immediately felt very awkward being present in that meeting. I thought, “What if I had invited an acquaintance to attend this meeting to check out ‘my church’?”
So, jaxi’s comment is not new to me. I’ve know about this ‘appeal to grandeur’ for quite some time. It’s good to know that I’m not the only one who has figured this out. Quite the ego trip, this ‘Mormonism’. However, is this Jesus? And how did the world ever become acquainted with Him? Answer: Mostly from the New Testament in the Bible. So, where in the New Testament do we ever get the impression that Jesus is ‘high and mighty’? I have always been impressed by, “I am meek and lowly of heart.”
The Mormon church is rife with this sort of stuff such as ‘leader worship’, climbing the ladder, and other doctrines and demeanors that appeal to having ‘authority’ over other people both here and in the next life. But this can’t be the way of Jesus, even though the Mormon church says that this is a necessary component of His church in order to ‘establish Zion’ on the earth. The Mormon church will say that if some of the leaders get carried away by having swelled heads, well, it’s not the fault of Jesus, but rather due to the imperfections and “nature and disposition of almost all men” (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 121).
No, I don’t buy that because this attitude comes down through the ranks from the very top echelon, i.e., the apostles and prophets. They fan the fires of this arrogance in many subtle ways; I’ve experienced it. And they know that this is how they get to keep a lot of it’s membership (especially the male membership) active in the church — by nurturing this ego trip!
And I have to ask others here who attend non-Mormon Christian churches: Is this attitude evident there as well?
I have seen first hand the scorched earth Mormonism can cause. I’ve three friends who were all good Mormon fellows. Over the course of high school, two of them went straight to atheism, while one bounced around several Christian denominations before giving up faith altogether. It was demoralizing to see the third friend bounce around, since I felt his convictions were always rather strong, but I still remain an adopted child of God, while he awaits what he believes will be salvation through technological augmentation and the pursuit of Hedonism. I hope that my friends might one day reconsider their decision to deny God and Jesus Christ.
Shortly before I left the LDS church I had a home teacher tell me that even if the church wasn’t true it wouldn’t hurt to have all our good works (as a result of being Mormon) to bring before God when we got to heaven. He was a doctor and dedicated family man and I respected him very much–but I felt his philosophy was deeply flawed. The truth doesn’t matter?? How would you feel if a surgeon represented himself to you as legitimate when in reality he was untrained and uneducated? No amount of “good things” he might be doing would make up for the fact that he is a fraud. Truth matters.
Kate and Jaxi,
You guys might have said this before but I dont know that ive heard it. What was the Ah-Ha moment for you? Im just curious if it is different for everyone and I wonder if it determines the path we take after leaving the LDS faith.
cattyjane,
I never really had an ah- ha moment. One day I was bored and dug through a large stack of old Ensigns and flipped one open to an article titled ” Proof that the Book of Abraham is true.” It had pictures of the facsimiles on the first page, all in color, and I noticed right off the changes to Anubis. Anubis was the god of embalming and he had the head of a Jackal, not the head of a bald man as Joseph had drawn on. I had an interest in Ancient Egypt and had done some research on it. I spent the rest of the day with my oldest son researching and comparing the facsimiles with true Egyptian history. I was floored about it all. As a Mormon I had never studied the BoA, I just believed it was true because Joseph Smith translated it. Like he translated the BoM. At this point I was thinking that it was only the BoA that he got wrong. When I tried to talk to family members or friends about what I had found, a wall would instantly go up and they would shut me out. My mom would get upset and tell me that I was just losing my faith. No one would address it. I decided to take a closer look at everything Mormon and went to the LDS website. I started reading the Journal of Discourses there. What I learned from those Journals about early leaders, especially Brigham Young, absolutely turned my stomach. I got to a point where the only one I was going to trust was Jesus. I went out and bought a Bible not affiliated with the LDS church and spent time in the NT. It was so easy to see that Jesus contradicts pretty much everything Joseph Smith revealed and taught. Long story short, I spent about 3 years researching and studying, getting angrier every day at the outright lies I had been taught by the church. Somewhere in those three years I found Heart of the Matter with Shawn McCraney and I watched every episode, not to tear down the church but to compare Mormonism to Biblical Christianity. I learned a lot about Christianity from him. I started attending a non denominational Christian Church and my Pastor helped me a lot. He gave me a CD by Chuck Missler called learn the Bible in 24 hours. That was very helpful to me. Somehow I stumbled across Mormon Coffee, I don’t even remember how I got here now lol! The Christians here are still helping me. I learn new stuff all the time. I have also learned tons from the LDS who post here. Stuff I was never taught or never knew while I was LDS. Mormonism has sure changed just in the past 5 or 10 years even. So there wasn’t really an ah- ha moment for me, it was more like a ball of yarn that completely unraveled over time.
I think the path we take depends on what we know about Jesus and how much time, talents and money we have invested into the Mormon system and how we are treated by our Mormon family members, friends and other Mormons when we decide Mormonism isn’t true. In Mormonism Jesus isn’t front and center. No matter how loud Mormons yell that He is, it’s just not true. If Jesus were the center of the Mormon faith, changing denominations wouldn’t be such a crisis. If we all believed in the same Jesus of the Bible, what would be the big deal if someone left the LDS church and became a Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or any of the Protestant denominations? If I leave my non denominational Christian church and go to a Baptist (or any other church) my Pastor would give me a hug and be happy that I had found the place within the Body of Christ that I fit in with. I know this because he told me so. Mormonism is about the corporation and keeping that tithing money coming in. The true and living Christ of the Bible is nowhere to be found there. I am so glad that I am free! I’m glad you are too, I loved watching your transformation, thanks for sharing it all with us here at MC! God is good!
vikingz2000
“And I have to ask others here who attend non-Mormon Christian churches: Is this attitude evident there as well?”
I’m sure there are Christians who are on an ego trip as well. I can only speak from my experience in the only Christian church that I have attended and the short answer is NO! The Pastor and all of the men, women and children I have observed at church are God loving and humble. Never once have I seen or heard anything other than praise to Jesus. This was the most awesome and strange thing for me the first few times attending a Christian church. The entire service was devoted to Jesus. We actually worshiped Him! I had never had this experience in all my years in Mormonism. I could have told you frontwards and backwards how to put up a food storage, but I couldn’t have told you how to worship Jesus. The Christian mind is radically different than the mind of a Mormon. Mormons just don’t get it. I know because I was a Mormon and I didn’t get it either.
“And I have to ask others here who attend non-Mormon Christian churches: Is this attitude evident there as well?”
No, I don’t think so. I’d be lying to say this never happens (hits the news from time to time on abuses), but my experience in the churches I have attended has been that men do not have, nor are they encouraged to have, large egos. No one is told they have “authority” over anything. We do everything with a humbleness before Christ and before others.
That said, there are different roles in a church. The pastoral staff and boards of elders and the like are usually given more respect, but the men and women in these positions are just like the rest of us. Its normal, though, to have leaders in any organization. The leaders in a church do not think they have any more power or benefit than the rest of us. They know their job is simply to guide the church, but also that they have no power to save or affect the salvation of anyone else apart from their messages and their involvement in the community.
I have never seen or heard a church leader say or do anything that gives men, or women, any sort of ego trip. If anything, the message is that men need to serve others. Just as Jesus washed the feet of his disciples, we are called to serve others. We are to be humble in our approach to everyone, not thinking we are better than anyone. Everyone has the same access to God that we do, and that our leaders have.
So, all of that is to say that I have never seen any church develop an ego trip in men, or in women.
VZ2,
I keep referring to my recent trip to Nauvoo because it was eye opening for me. I don’t rub elbows with Mormons much because they are rare where I live.
When on a couple of the tours my wife and I noticed this man, I’d say mid-to-late forties, with a certain “presence”. I’d say an arrogance. Then we heard a couple of the other men in a reverential tone address him as “bishop”. The puzzle pieces sort of fell together. This guy, in a very quiet, confident manner, held sway over these other men.
There are Christian ego-trippers but I avoid them. I don’t run into them much, certainly not in the church I attend. These men and women that are head tripping need people who are willing to follow them.
I was leading a church service one time years ago, different time and place, and a visitor got up and proclaimed, “All who need healing come forward now.” My jaw dropped. I was so taken back. After the service I diplomatically told the guy that he was out of line. He didn’t accept it of course because he was so full of pride. He wouldn’t accept any legitimate church authority or guidance. He hung around a little bit in the days to come and one of the women would refer to him as her “teacher”. He wasn’t dynamic enough to get a crowd up though.
There was a movement back in the 70s called “shepardship” that some independent pentecostal churches got in to. It was exposed but it did some damage before falling out of favor. It was all about people submitting to leadership but it was really about control freaks.
I think you here might appreciate this article. I’m posting it as a way of inoculating you who may have more recently come to Christ out of Mormonism.
I was one of those who got saved during the Jesus Movement of the early 1970s, it was the Baby Boomer” revival, and either experienced, read about or was exposed to just about every “movement” in the last 41 years. I say, stay with Jesus and avoid as much religion as possible. Be in the Word and get the basics of solid doctrine down pat. Test and question everything anyone tells you. Dr. Walter Martin used to say that and then add, “…..including what I tell you!”.
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/fire-in-my-bones/12149-we-need-another-jesus-movement
Alabaster and Mamacarla , welcome .
Vikingz2000, obviously there is some men in non- LDS churches who have a attitude of
superiority , but the churches that I been to and served in have been small in size and this
attitude has been extremely rare . I think that the propensity for this type of attitude is much
greater in Mormonism with it’s Elders because of the structure and some of the doctrines .
To those men in various leadership positions in the Mormon Wards and higher who know
they are Almighty Gods in training , they are in authority over people now and in the future
after their resurrection they will rule over others —their progeny. As Heavenly fathers they will
have procreated with their wife(s) and rule and reign over their kingdom which can be vast and
eternal increase. This doctrine could contribute to a mentality of superiority in Mormon men ,
and I think that this would be more prevalent in Utah .
That’s my opinion .
Here are some comments from some readers at the site where this blogger referenced the article I posted above. I think it is “themed” well for our discussion here. I’ve really been moved the last couple of days reading the postings from you former Mormons who are now born again by the Spirit of God. It has really refreshed my spirit. Thank you for sharing your journey.
I would guess that Mormonism and Mormons aren’t even on the radar screen of the folks making the comments below. I think this ministry is a fairly small niche in the total Christian world. I don’t know anyone other than myself who is involved in such a ministry in my area. I’d have to get over to the Twin Cities where Sharon and Rick reside to talk to folks who are doing this.
“Believe this to be an up to minute view of what the Holy Spirit has also been sharing amongst myself and a local group of believers recently. The Simplicity of Christ. Getting back to basics and the first love. Coming to know the Lord for Who He is..not what such a diverse range of Christian “personages” “programs” “products” and “paraphernalia” have produced. The simplicity of Christ is the cross and all that entails. Do we really have the depth of meaning of the cross, and what that truly represents, in the suffering and beauty of our risen Lord, in today’s general Christian world?”
“Yes, I too feel we have a course change coming, a refocusing, an opportunity for any who chose him this day. And we need to remember to choose him every day. How by getting into his word and seeking him out. Our Lord tells us “seek and you will find” This is written as promises to us that seek him out and lay ourselves at his feet. We are during a clock time that is speeding faster and faster each day, we can not keep up with it and though we attempt the clock in moving as God has set it from the beginning. So what do we do? You said it best in the instruction from your referenced reading. Start with the Four Gospels and stay there. We do not need to do more than that when we are tying to find out who Jesus Christ is. Once we start to hear and listing with our heart the rest of the Bible teachings will come.”
“Oh wow! How that took me back to my early days of being born again into the glorious liberty of a brand new daughter (son!) of God. I devoured Henrietta Mears’ book, read it over and over again & thrilled to her pointing out how gloriously Jesus is portrayed in each of the four Gospels – a wonderful trip down memory lane that my heart longs for once again. Thanks for that!”
http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/we-need-another-jesus-movement/
Kate,
I was really messed up for a while there. When I started researching the claims of the lds faith I thought that I would find that the church was true and that all of the resistance toward the church was due to satan not wanting people to find the truth. Oh how I laugh at that now! Lol!
Its funny how you say that your interest in Egyptology led you to discover the lies in the church. My interest in the Hebrew language is what led me out of the lds faith. I think everything is for a reason even our hobbies. Just goes to show that God is there even in the tiniest of details. He always provides a way to find truth.
I was actually planning to return to the church right before I found this site. I came to this site because I thought it was an lds blog to encourage members in the church. I thought the name was kinda odd for an lds site but I just overlooked it. Then I started reading and here I am today! 🙂 I actually looked at the sample letters that I can send to have my name removed from the membership rolls. Since I have family staying with me this summer I think I will start on that next month. Just in case I get phone calls or people coming by my house. I little as I was involved I doubt it will be a big production but just in case ill wait till the family leaves.
As far as the ego trip goes in churches I think there will always be those people who feel they are holier or are more spiritual than others but let that be between them and God. We of course should try to rid ourselves of the sin that comes between us and our relationship with Him but we shouldnt become prideful or put down others in our works of obedience toward the Almighty.
Craftsmen.
It doesn’t matter how active you have been, the process of name removal is the same. If you don’t threaten legal action for your name to be removed immediately, it will take several months for them to do it. It usually involves a call to set up a meeting with the bishop of the ward you are living in. That’s why I didn’t answer my phone. Usually the stake president is also involved. You can’t just send a letter and expect church headquarters to process your request. It doesn’t work that way. Which is ridiculous because I addressed my letter to Mr. Dodge and in the end, after all the hoopla, it was Mr. Dodge who processed it and sent a confirmation letter stating my records had been removed. Be prepared for a pamphlet from the first presidency. This pamphlet was basically spiritual blackmail in my opinion and it upset me. Don’t let it bother you:)
I know a few ex LDS who haven’t had their names removed because they think it’s all hogwash anyway, but for me, I needed that complete break away from Mormonism. We all do it differently .
That last post was to cattyjane hahaha! I am on my tablet and sometimes it likes to help!
Kate,
Oh yay. I might have to ask for your help once I start this then. The site said it has to be sent to Salt Lake records or would I just send it to the stake president or both. I didnt care at first either but the more I learn about the way God views our actions I think its important to cross over completely to his ways and eliminate any dealings or attachments with our old ways of worship.
I understand the tablet thing. It happens with my phone to.
Cattyjane,
I would be happy to help you. You do send it to member records in Salt Lake City. They will then send it to your stake president who will notify your bishop. Member records will send you a letter stating it’s an ecclesiastical matter. There’s a lady at my church who contacted an attorney and she threatened legal action if her records weren’t removed immediately and she didn’t go through any of that, they promptly removed her records. It’s up to you how you want to handle that. Be prepared for love bombing and the Missionaries sent to your door every few months. That’s what happened to me:)
This bog thread is bemusing.
It seems that evangelicals love to crow about the imminent demise of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They have been doing so since the earliest beginnings of the Lord’s Church. Such misplaced triumphalism belies a profound ignorance of the LDS Church, whence it came and what its ultimate destiny will be. Evangelicals are simply too blinded by their animus towards Mormons to see the simple truth.
Indeed, the simple truth is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been stronger in its 183 year history as it is today. This simple truth galls Evangelicals to no end. Yes we do live in a secular age and organized religion is on the wane throughout the world. Yes there will be defections an apostates from the LDS Church as there are from every church and religion. Nevertheless and notwithstanding the weakness of a few members, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints progressing steadily and inexorably in its God-given mandate to fill the world. This simple truth galls evangelicals to no end.
Alex, I have no doubt the LDS church is not going anywhere. It’ll be her a long time.
That’s not the larger point.
Any guesses as to what the larger point is?
Guess what Alex?
The over whelming majority of Evangelicals could care less about Mormonism or Mormons.
What you’re dealing with here is a small subset of the total who are dedicated to the apologetic ministry to Mormons. I’m serious. Ninety percent of Christians, I’d say, don’t even think about Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses or none of the other pseudo-Christian cults.
You fail to recognize the obvious and that is that the boys who sit in the big chairs in the tall buildings of LDS Inc in Salt Lake City are aware that the sect is bleeding members. You can close your eyes to reality because it makes you feel better and that’s OK by me. It’s a defense mechanism used to maintain the idea that you are a member of the one true church. I think the other sects of Mormonism would argue your claim and many would call you apostates.
The fact of the matter is that the basic premise upon which Mormonism is built, that it’s the restored gospel, is a joke.
Do you have any evidence that what you believe and practice is what first century Christians believed and practiced? All I have to do is read the Bible, especially the NT and it’s what I, as a Christian, believe and practice. I can also point to the writings of the Church Fathers and the traditions of the Church.
Sorry Alex but what you have is the mental meanderings of a 19th century imposter who claimed to be a prophet but was nothing more than a hustler.
Deal with it!
Alex,
Don’t come here and give us the blah, blah, blah about “the one true church”. I visit the websites of the various Mormon sects and all I’ve got to say is there is wide variation when it comes to the “restored gospel”. In fact your own sect can’t make up its mind as to what exactly the “restored gospel” is.
I keep pointing out to you that you had a prophet in Brigham Young who subsequent leaders claimed didn’t know who God is.
You are on shaky ground my friend. You’re living in a fantasy world of your own created set of Mormon beliefs. I don’t know. Maybe you’ll claim you’re the real prophet with the “truth”. You may as well because the historical record shows us that the Mormon truth is an illusive concept.
You need to get your head straight.
You can always tell when antagonistic persons ( Alex) have nothing of substance to say here
because they resort to broad brushing and attacking others ( ” Evangelicals are simply to
blinded by their animus towards Mormons …” ). Of course some Mormon leaders have never
exhibited animus towards non-LDS , right ? In the last several years there has been a sizable
number of LDS who have left or become inactive , enough to concern leaders .
Alex , you’re ” kicking against the goads ” [ Acts 26:14] . You’re not the first critical Mormon
who has tried to disparage us and thwart our efforts to reach out a hand and render aid.
But I believe one day you’ll know the truth and thank us for taking the time to share that truth
to you .
Falcon, Mike R and the rest of you misguided misanthropes,
Your lack of critical analytical skills is telling. You have entirely missed my point which is simply that claims by evangelicals and *** that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is bleeding members and dying on the vine are blatantly false. In other words such claims are deliberate lies. The simple truth is the exact opposite: the LDS Church is flourishing! Of course that simple truth galls evangelicals and *** to no end.
Well Alex,
They all haven’t read stuff like I just posted on the Missouri thread. But more and more are reading and paying attention. Time will tell. According to Jo, we should be in the millennium now and America should have been destroyed. But that didn’t happen. We are the America that Mormon “prophets” NEVER foresaw, because they couldn’t, and still can’t. An America that didn’t need Mormonism to save it, and one that your God couldn’t destroy, even though your “prophets” said he would. Your “prophets” have a bad track record. So…I wouldn’t count on Mormonism taking over the world any time soon.
Alex, you are simply refusing to own up to some things you have said here . I missed your point?
Hardly . It was’nt hard to miss your silly statements . You’re simply showing what the phrase
” the pot calling the kettle black ” means in much of what you say . Now you’ve even
accused others of deliberate lying . You’re getting desperate .
It’s sad that you waste your time and that of others with your innuendo’s, and faulty reasoning .
Nothing you can say or insinuate will cause me to not pray for you because I love the Mormon
people enough to share with them the liberating truth available to them because of Jesus .
Alex,
One of my dogs, the little one, always crawls under the bed when he hears it thunder. You sort of remind me of him. The thunder, in your life, is the reality that everything you love and hold dear, isn’t true. You crawl under the bed of denial but in your case you bark at the thunder thinking that it will be an effective way of dealing with your fears.
Sometime in the next twenty-four to thirty months, you’ll come to Christ in faith. If you want to maintain your life within Mormonism, this blog is not a good place for you to be. But you can’t stay away. You think you are defending the one true church against the Evangelical World that is trying to destroy it. Actually you’re fighting against God’s Holy Spirit and that’s not a battle you are likely to win.
I think you fail to realize that most of the posters here are former Mormons. Most thought like you do, some not all that long ago. The apostle Paul talks about being set aside from his mother’s womb, by God. It was inevitable that he would come to Christ.
That’s why we can be patient with you because we know the battle has already been fought on your behalf and the outcome determined.
The Lord Jesus Christ, who gave His life for you will melt your heart of stone and will write His law upon your new heart of flesh. You will be a witness and a testimony for Him to bring many lost souls to faith.
This will be exciting to watch as we now rejoice beforehand in what God is doing in your life.
This is the second time I’ve watched this video by Grant Palmer. It’s really good stuff. He talks about the “Ah-Ha” moments he had as he studied Mormonism. Grant Palmer is no slouch since he has a Ph.D in history.
I like the way he talked about being invited into the presidents vault at HQ by the LDS Church historian and seeing the “magic rocks”. His description was great especially getting close to the rock, looking at it, but not seeing anything in it. That was classic.
He also talked about the first fifty members or so of Smith’s church coming from his extended family and how they were all into folk magic especially the practice of second sight vision. This is where they would “see” things through the “eyes of faith” in-other-words, their imaginations. Today Mormons can’t figure out why they aren’t seeing all of these spirit beings that these early Mormons did. The answer of course is that you have to use those same techniques which aren’t, BTW, real difficult to apply.
I like what Mr. Palmer had to say about the BoM coming from Smith’s own experience and the King James Bible. Evidence and facts are stubborn things and Mr. Palmer has these things on his side.
Finally, in the final couple of years of his life, we see in Smith a guy who was totally out of control. Kindly speaking, he was not “self-regulating” real well.
There is a major difference between the reality of Joseph Smith and what the LDS church has tried to create and promote.
It’s no wonder that cracks are appearing the LDS foundation. The evidence is just too over whelming to support the fantasy that’s been created. Grant Palmer says that 45% of returning missionaries don’t hold temple recommends five years after their missions are completed. No wonder the LDS HQ is sweating.
The culture of Mormonism is built around emotions. The whole point of the MM lessons is to get the prospect feeling something. In my tours in Nauvoo, the guides were continually attempting to gin-up emotions and feelings. These feelings are taken as “spiritual” experiences of validation as to the truth of Mormonism.
With so many people leaving Mormonism, you’d think the GAs would make a move to manufacture more feelings and then connect the feelings to having the “spirit”. If there’s an emotional buy-in, people are less likely to want to leave “the one true church”.
Andy Watson told me that every Mormon church service he was ever in felt like a funeral. I’ve been told that Mormonism is boring, i.e. the church services.
So why doesn’t the LDS church modernize its church services? Start singing praise and worship songs and bring in some modern, contemporary music. Well what would praise and worship music look like in Mormonism? Would it be holding up and praising the Relief Society? How about a round of courses praising Joseph Smith? Maybe some modern courses praising Heavenly Mother.
I use to sing songs to the Virgin Mary when I went to Catholic school. “On this day oh beautiful mother. On this day we give you our love. Nearer Madonna closer we hover………” I forget the rest. It’s just as well.
But what if Mormons started singing praise and worship songs to Jesus? All of the worship songs I sing on Sunday have Jesus as the focal point or God the Father or the Holy Spirit. Would Mormons raise their hands, clap, shout maybe jump up and down a little with excitement about Jesus?
Well it sure would generate some feelings I’d guess but I think we all know the out come when people start praising in song and getting excited about Our Lord. For Mormons it would be like Joshua marching around the walls of Jericho. The walls would come tumbling down. Fabulous idea I think.
Alex
I think I will believe your church leader and take him at his word. You are misinformed. BTW, it’s been a year and a half since this and I don’t see your church doing any of the things Elder Jensen told Reuters they were going to do. So the church has had members leaving “in droves” as Elder Jensen confirmed and they were aware of it at least a year and a half ago.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120131
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Number-of-faithful-Mormons-rapidly-declining/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA.cspx
Kate,
Your comment got me to thinking. The Mormons today don’t have the options that Jo had. They can’t just pack up and leave, reinvent themselves and start over as Jo did time after time. They have to now live with who and what they are and represent in their long and troubled history. The church bounced back from the Kirtland Apostasy because Jo had the influx of “saints” that were duped by his “apostles” and commanded to “gather”. Most of them were kept in the dark about Jo’s true teachings and practices. Then Young moved them far away to an isolated place and set himself up as a dictator, living a life of luxury while making many cross the plains in handcarts. Young was a millionaire within a decade of moving west. He lived like a king, while most suffered. It is telling that when Young tried to reinstitute the “United Order” again in Utah, he just didn’t command everyone to live it. They experimented with it in various communities. Did Young give up his mansions, his money and his possessions? Not on your life. He was so petty he would charge money for divorces, blessings, etc. Mormons love to compare themselves to Biblical prophets, but there is no comparison. None of them set themselves up in mansions and got rich off of the tithing of the people. They were out among the people preaching the word, not holed up in a condo or a mansion.
Kate, Cattyjane and every other Mormon looking to leave the Church.
Kate said this
If you dont want LDS “Love Bombing” You, I will or can if you want, give you my home address, you can tell the Mormons you moved and this is your new home address and you still want your name removed. Then give them my address, I will talk with them.
What a great way to get Mormnons to come to my house.
Alex,
Why do you come here and say things like you do? But you never come here and provide evidence to our questions? You guys always tell us we are wrong and dont have a clue, yet you guys never set us straight with the reall evidence. Me and Falcon have been pointing this out for years. And for years you guys have been dodging us.
Rick B,
Lol your awesome! However I doubt that would work. Ive moved to a new town within the last couple of months and I didnt transfer my records so that migjt make it easier. The closest Branch to my house is 45 min away so they would have to make quite the effort to come to my house.
Rick,
Why is that we are never challenged on what we say Mormonism teaches?
Rick,
This is just crazy but guess who just knocked on my door? You guessed it, the sister missionaries. I didn’t have your address to give them Rick! When I told them that I am no longer LDS but have converted to Christianity she said that was good because it’s all the same! Floored, just floored! I told her no it isn’t, they are 2 completely different religions and I’m not interested in Mormonism and have a good day. I’m just not to a point where I can invite them in and have a discussion. Maybe one day. I just wish I knew how to get my name off of their list.
Cattyjane,
This is what you will be in for 🙂 Maybe you are someone who can invite them in and have a discussion. Me, I just want no contact and to be left alone.
If anyone knows how to get my name off of their list please, please, let me know.
Kate,
Wow that is crazy! And we were just discussing that. At least you were able to turn them away. I don’t know that I would be able to do that. I guess if they come to my house to discuss things I need to get Rick B on speaker phone as my advocate. I know what is true and I wont be returning to the church no matter how many times they want to visit and discuss things.
I went through three months of discussions twice a week with the missionaries when I was going to return to the church. They were helping me to “regain my testimony”. During the last few discussions I started to speak out more abut my questions and concerns with their doctrine and they shut me down. They said that wasn’t their job to answer the deep doctrinal questions but to help me regain my testimony of the foundational stuff. That was my red flag that told me I was right. It wasn’t even deep doctrinal stuff in my opinion. I don’t know that it would be a good idea to engage in conversation or not just because it is so soon after Ive decided to officially leave the church and I don’t really have a church home at the moment.
Cattyjane,
The last missionaries that stopped by got very confrontational after I asked them to tell me truthfully who their god is. I didn’t want a repeat of that so I just politely turned them away. Now I’m wishing I would have just said that if it’s all the same then why in the world would I need Mormonism. I was talking to my husband after they left about how misleading and dishonest that statement was. How many Christians have they told that to? Is it something they say to get their foot in a Christian’s door? I can see how Christians who are clueless to anything Mormon would get sucked into it. How dishonest. How deceitful. The LDS church teaches these kids to lie and to obfuscate. They may call it milk before meat but I call it bait and switch and they may call it lying for the Lord but I call it lying. Period. I don’t think the Lord wants any of us lying in His name.
I understand how you feel it’s too soon to engage in a discussion with them, I went through that too and obviously I still have trouble with it.
Sorry Aaron, we’ve gotten a little off topic.