“We believe the same thing.”

“We believe the same thing.”

They why the need for a restoration?

“We believe the same thing.”

Then why did you just tell me you believed the exact opposite thing?

“We believe the same thing.”

How you can be sure, if you haven’t even asked me about what I believe?

“We believe the same thing.”

Since I said we don’t, aren’t you in the least bit curious about why I think we don’t?

“We believe the same thing.”

Then why does Jeffrey Holland say we don’t in General Conference?

“We believe the same thing.”

Then why call my creeds an abomination?

“We believe the same thing.”

Then what is so significant about the First Vision?

“We believe the same thing.”

Then why send missionaries to me?

“We believe the same thing.”

Then what’s the big deal about the Great Apostasy?

“We believe the same thing.”

Then why don’t you attend a local evangelical Christian church?

“We believe the same thing.”

Then why are you so afraid to take a tract?

“We believe the same thing.”

No, I’m sorry, we don’t believe the same thing. We should have a neighborly conversation about the things we believe that aren’t the same. Why?

Truth matters. Life matters. Jesus matters.

Too much for lazily glossing over eternal differences.

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65 Responses to “We believe the same thing.”

  1. falcon says:

    Hay that sounds like that old technique called “broken record”.
    Boy am I showing my age. I’m from the “record” era. You know, 331/3, 45, 78 rpm.
    So sometimes the record would develop a flaw and it would get stuck in the groove and just keeping saying the same lines over and over and over and over. The you had to put your finger on the arm which held the needle and the song could continue.
    “Since my baby left me…….since my baby left me……..since my baby left me……since my baby left me”.
    Ten points to anyone who can Name That Tune.

    I think we get the Mormon tune. The point of there “we believe that too” or “we believe the same thing” or whatever version of the song, is to identify with the person they are speaking to. Could we as Christians get away with that in speaking to Mormons.
    “We have modern day prophets and apostles.” “We believe that too.”
    “We have the one true church.” “We believe that too.”
    “We believe Joseph Smith was a prophet.” I’m sorry. That’s a bridge too far for me even to make a point!

  2. Alex says:


    but a gross misrepresentation of LDS theology and doctrine. How typical.

  3. Kate says:


    How so? Please explain.

  4. MJP says:

    Alex, I second Kate’s question: how so? How is saying that we do not believe the same thing a gross misrepresentation?

  5. falcon says:

    Well here we go again folks!
    Alex seems to be saying that we all believe the same thing. At least that’s what can be deduced from his comment. The point of what Aaron has written is that it is not uncommon for MM to make that claim.
    So why do Mormons send out missionaries if we all believe the same thing?
    I don’t believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet. I don’t believe that the BoM is an actual history of an actual people. I don’t believe in the LDS church as being the “one true church”. I don’t believe that Thomas Monson is God’s prophet. Finally I don’t believe in who the LDS church says Jesus is.
    I don’t believe that men will become gods, the LDS priesthood, the LDS temple or the rituals that take place there. I don’t believe in the LDS doctrine of the nature of God. I don’t believe in Joseph Smith’s first vision; any of the versions. I don’t believe an angel appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him gold plates from which he translated the BoM.

    Now will some Mormon tell me how we believe the same thing? I could also list all of the doctrines of the Christian faith that Mormons don’t believe.

  6. falcon says:

    This sort of sounds like if I would see an obvious pregnant woman and after congratulating her on her impending blessed event exclaim, “I’m pregnant too!”
    But it isn’t quite that simple because the pregnant woman would immediately surmise that I, being a man, was nuts.
    So then it would be as if a woman went up to a pregnant woman and after congratulating her would say, “I’m pregnant too!” How would the obviously pregnant woman know that the woman was pregnant unless the other woman looked pregnant. It’s possible for a woman to be pregnant but not look pregnant so you just take her word for it.
    Would you believe that there are women who “fake” being pregnant? They even go out and buy maternity clothes and fix up a nursery at home. Some even tell their husbands that they’re pregnant. It’s a form of mental illness.
    The trouble comes when there’s no baby born. There’s ways to explain away the lack of a baby so it simply amounts to how convincing the faker can be.
    The LDS church is full of folks who make claims that they’re the same too as Christians, but aren’t. They either are woefully ignorant of their own religion (many are) or they are lying or it’s a case of wishful thinking.

  7. Kate says:

    “Well, since my baby left me,
    I found a new place to dwell.
    Its down at the end of lonely street
    At heartbreak hotel.’

    Huge Elvis fan here! I’ll be over here waiting for my 10 points 🙂

    On a more serious note, I was floored when the sister missionary told me that Mormonism and Christianity is all the same thing. Maybe she truly believes that it is who knows. How many of these kids leave the MTC still clueless as to what Mormonism really teaches? The last sister missionaries that I talked to, had never heard that the Mormon god was once a man who lived on an earth like we do now and through his good works he became a god or that he somehow procreates spirit babies with one or many wives. They had also never heard of the Adam/God doctrine and thought I was lying about that. Brigham Young couldn’t have possibly thought that or taught it. They either were unaware of these Mormon teachings or they were aware and were simply lying. From their reactions I think they were unaware.
    The LDS church sends these kids out totally clueless and living in a Mormon bubble. No wonder half of them become inactive or leave after their missions. How many of them are like Micah Wilder and come into contact with Christians who know the Bible?
    Christians and Mormons definitely don’t believe the same thing. It truly is Jesus or Joseph.

  8. spartacus says:

    How is any of the following “a gross misrepresentation of LDS theology and doctrine.”?

    They why the need for a restoration?
    – -LDS do believe there was a need for a restoration.

    Then why did you just tell me you believed the exact opposite thing?
    – -not enough info here

    How you can be sure, if you haven’t even asked me about what I believe?
    – -This is an excellent question since LDS ironically complain that Christians don’t understand the LDS religion when LDS constantly say things that are supposed to refer to Christianity but actually show a dearth of understanding or dishonesty.

    Since I said we don’t, aren’t you in the least bit curious about why I think we don’t?
    – -again, nothing here to deny Alex

    Then why does Jeffrey Holland say we don’t in General Conference?
    – -I don’t know what Aaron is referring to here, but I’m sure it’s legit. Just recall Hinckley’s statement about a different Jesus.

    Then why call my creeds an abomination?
    – -Alex, LDS do “call” Christian creeds abominations.

    Then what is so significant about the First Vision?
    – – LDS obviously think the 1st Vision is significant.

    Then why send missionaries to us?
    – -Obviously LDS do send missionaries and to Christians.

    Then what’s the big deal about the Great Apostasy?
    – -LDS do believe the Great Apostasy was a big deal.

    Then why don’t you attend a local evangelical Christian church?
    – -not applicable, unless you want to say that LDS go to evangelical churches all the time…

    Then why are you so afraid to take a tract?
    – -Given Aaron’s extensive sidewalk evangelism experience, I’m pretty sure he is accurate about this. Or maybe it’s just for the motif.

    No, I’m sorry, we don’t believe the same thing. We should have a neighborly conversation about the things we believe that aren’t the same. Why?

    Truth matters. Life matters. Jesus matters.

    Too much for lazily glossing over eternal differences

    – -Do you really want to challenge any of that, Alex?

  9. spartacus says:

    Wait! I think I just figured Alex’s contention! It’s not what Aaron was asking but the repeated “we believe the same thing” that he finds misrepresents. Apparently Alex doesn’t think that LDS say this. But then there’s still two problems: Aaron’s extensive experience and that such a statement has little our nothing to do with theology our doctrine….

    Now that I wrote that last part, I find it very ironic.

    No but really, this must be what Alex is going for.That LDS theology and doctrine are not the same as Christian and so thus is a gross misrepresentation…that is given by many LDS.

    My favorite version of this us when LDS claim that they respect what we believe and don’t want us to lose any of “what is good”but simply “add” tothe truth we have. If that isn’t wrong in do many ways or just plain subversive, then I don’t know what is.

  10. Alex says:


    Bingo!!! Although Aaron craftily does not specify what ““We believe the same thing” means or refers to, it is quite clear that LDS doctrine, theology and practice differs significantly from that of apostate Christianity. Aaron is being deliberately disingenuous or mischievious by asserting that Mormons claim that ““We believe the same thing” when it truth Mormon’s don’t “believe the same thing” (whatever that “same thing” means).

    Perhaps Aaron could clarify the matter and explain just what he means by: ““We believe the same thing.”

  11. grindael says:

    Maybe he meant this,

    President Brigham Young thus declared that

    we, the Latter-day Saints, take the liberty of believing more than our Christian brethren: we not only believe … the Bible, but … the whole of the plan of salvation that Jesus has given to us. Do we differ from others who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? No, only in believing more.[x]

    It is the “more” that makes many in the Christian world very nervous and usually suspicious of us. But it is the “more” that allows us to make a significant contribution in the religious world. Elder Boyd K. Packer observed: “We do not claim that others have no truth. … Converts to the Church may bring with them all the truth they possess and have it added upon.”[xi]

    Knowing what I know, feeling what I feel and having experienced what I have in regard to the person and power of the Savior, it is difficult for me to be patient and loving toward those who denounce me as a non-Christian.


    Mormons don’t claim that Christians have no truth, only that we are apostates who are an abomination to God. Give me a break.

  12. grindael says:

    Now read the entire article and ask yourself if it is only “more”. It’s not.

  13. Alex says:


    The excellent article to which you refer clearly states the LDS theological views are not the same as those professed by Trinitarian Christians, egro Mormons do not “believe the same thing” as Aaron claims nor have they ever made such a claim. Thus Aaron’s claim is a misrepresentation of LDS theology, doctrine, and practice.

  14. grindael says:

    If you “believe more”, than you have to believe the same things that Christians believe. That is the point. These kinds of statements are deceptive. We all know Mormons’ don’t. Aaron has misrepresented nothing.

  15. Alex says:


    What nonsense! Brigham Young’s statement of “believing more” by definition entails believing something that is different even if that difference is limited to its “moreness” which in this case it definitely isn’t. Brigham Young does not make the claim that Mormons “believe in the same thing” as apostate Christians.

    Indeed, Trinitarian Christians have disagreements amongst themselves on practically every point of doctrine. It is because of these doctrinal and theological disagreements that there are so many different sects within Christendom (3,000 to 30,000 depending upon your source). Obviously the various sects do not all “believe the same thing”.

    I will let Aaron explain what he means by his preposterous claim that: “We (Mormons) believe the same thing”.

  16. falcon says:

    Your explanation doesn’t work but surprise surprise that’s the old Mormon selective thinking operating again.
    “More” becomes “different” in your warped form of logic.
    A kid is eating cake. He asks for more. So you give him broccoli? He clearly wanted more “cake” not more of something to eat.
    I perused the above article because I’m always interested in what the LDS church has to say about who Jesus is, in this case what they leave out regarding the Mormon Jesus.
    There was nothing in the article about the Mormon Jesus being the spirit offspring of one of the millions and billions of Mormon gods and one of his plural wives. He didn’t mention the revelation regarding the Mormon god and Jesus given to the prophet Brigham Young. You know the story…….the Mormon heavenly father was really Adam and one of his wives Eve and how HF made his way to earth to have sex with Mary.
    I would classify that as “more” but it’s interesting how the LDS church rejects their own prophet which would bring us to conclude that he wasn’t really a prophet and didn’t even know who the Mormon god was.
    Yup, Mormonism has given the world “more”. I think I’ll pass. No thank you.

  17. falcon says:

    I’ve told the story before of how Andy Watson goes into this class at a Mormon ward and during the time when questions could be asked he says something like, “Hello, my name is Andy Watson. I’m a born again Christian who has received salvation through my faith in Jesus Christ. What can the LDS church do for someone like me?” The answer? “We can do nothing for you.”
    So reading between the lines, what does that answer mean? I don’t know maybe it means we LDS believe the same as you. Perhaps they have nothing “more”; that the LDS can add to the spiritual experience of a born again Christian.
    I’d like to have Aaron do one of those person on the street interview and ask various LDS people if they believe the “same” as he, who is a born again Christian.

  18. I think that people, especially in religious conversations, tend to simply react without thinking much. So their language ends up being more functional than meaningful. For example, people hear trigger-words and they respond likewise with trigger-words — words they simply think they are supposed to say. Or words they think will solve a problem.

    I think the problem that many Mormons try to solve in conversation with me is that they have someone who wants to meaningfully and seriously discuss the most radical differences. “We believe the same thing”, which I hear… a lot… seems to be a way of dismissing the differences without thinking them through. It’s a conversation-stopper. It is much like, “Agree to disagree”, or, “Well I respect your right to express your opinion”, or, “I’m glad you’re doing what you think is right”, or, “I’m glad you’re doing what makes you happy.”

    Another phrase that I think has some meaning in Mormonism, but far more function, is, “I know the Church is true.” What does this really mean? That is an important question. But far more obvious is: How does this phrase usually function within the community of Mormonism?

    Grace and peace.

  19. grindael says:

    Brigham Young indeed does affirm that Mormons believe the same thing. Young says nothing about “more” he says bring your “truth” with you and we will ADD MORE. Now, of course if you were to press the issue, you would find that there is nothing in common about Mormonism and Christianity, because Mormonism is a pseudo-Christian religion that believes in polytheism, (Smith identified your God as the Egyptian god Min), a gospel of works and regulations, etc., all anathema to what the New Testament teaches. But that is not the issue. The issue is with Mormon apologists whether lay or clergy, who try and obfuscate the issues and dupe believing Christians that your “gospel” is the same one that Christ taught. It’s not, and thank you for affirming that.

  20. Kate says:


    “egro Mormons do not “believe the same thing” as Aaron claims nor have they ever made such a claim. Thus Aaron’s claim is a misrepresentation of LDS theology, doctrine, and practice.”

    LDS missionaries stood on my porch just this week and claimed Mormonism and Christianity are the same thing. Aren’t they sent out by your church to teach the truth? How many Christians have they lied to?

  21. johnsepistle says:

    It seems to me that your contention here is that, as a matter of fact, no Latter-day Saint has ever attempted to diffuse criticism or build initial bridges with prospective converts by offering the impression that Latter-day Saints and other Christians believe essentially the same things in all areas that matter.

    It may well be that you see the differences clearly enough and starkly enough to not make that mistake. I would caution you, however, against assuming that your co-religionists uniformly escape that trap. Aaron and some of the other commenters here have firsthand experience to the contrary.

    Some Latter-day Saints, whether out of sincere confusion or (intentionally or unintentionally) as a helpful rhetorical tactic in certain instances (see Aaron’s useful comment on function vs. meaning in language), do indeed utilize this phrase or other expressions functionally equivalent with it. (Moreover, I would add, there are many mainstream Christians who testify to having once had the misconceptions that Mormonism was ‘just another denomination’, only to find out much later on how deep the real differences go. If only for their sake, this misconception deserves to be distilled down to its essence and addressed, as we see in this post.)

    As such, since Aaron in his post nowhere said that this is a general LDS statement, has in no way misrepresented LDS theology and doctrine, let alone “grossly” as you falsely accused him of doing.

  22. falcon says:

    I have the sense, from anecdotal reports, that if the LDS missionaries could be successful in gaining converts by pitching the “we’re the same” line, they’d do it. I also have the sense that if they could gain coverts by pitching the differences between the LDS religion and Christianity, they’d do it. The point is they’d do what ever was necessary to get people in the baptismal tank and their names on the rolls of the LDS church.
    Here’s something that I find really intriguing and which I bet, most Mormons have never heard about.
    “President Woodbury led the British mission from 1958 to 1962, and heartily encouraged the method of using baseball to recruit boys for baptism numbers. A typical strategy was to take young British boys who wanted to join the American baseball club to the local YMCA for an “initiation” where they were baptized, thinking it was just a part of joining the sports club. It’s estimated that less than 10% of the baseball-baptism boys were ever active. The goals soon spiraled out of control. For example the goal for 1962 was more than 10 times the goal for 1959. Huge numbers of boys were baptized, usually with virtually no knowledge about the church, and often without the required parent’s permission. One time, N. Eldon Tanner got all excited about the numbers and reported at October 1961 General Conference that “in England, we’re baptizing enough new members every 2 months to create a new stake of 2,500″. ”
    “In about 1964, Apostle Mark E. Peterson started a comprehensive program of excommunication throughout the British Isles. The name removal procedure did not exist, so they had to excommunicate to clean up the church’s rolls. For example, one branch had 150 on the roster and only 8 active. Mass excommunications began in 1964 and the total may have exceeded 100,000 throughout the church. The mid-1960s saw a decline in total mission field LDS membership.
    Once missionaries went back to normal tactics in the mid-1960s, convert baptisms in Britain fell to “drastically low levels.”

    “In the Gulf States Mission (early 1960s), missionary elders and sisters scouted out country towns and hamlets for boys who had never seen the Gulf of Mexico. During the bus or car ride to the beach, the missionaries taught the boys all six discussions at once. When they reached the sugar-white sands of the Gulf, the first order of business was multiple-baptism ceremonies in the surf. If the boys did not comply, they would turn immediately around and take the boys back home. After hours of fun in the sun, the newly baptized learned that the missionaries would be glad to bring them back to the beach again – if each boy brought along at least one unbaptized friend.”

    Here’s an article by Michael Quinn regarding the Mormon Baseball Baptism program of a certain era.

  23. Mike R says:

    I think the point Aaron is making is that too often many Mormons( usually in public interviews)
    imply that they ” believe the same thing ” as others christians etc . Rarely does the extant of the
    serious differences in doctrine or the way Mormon leaders have described other churches , be
    admitted to in public . The Mormon Church has a first class “P.R.” dept. Mormons have made a
    agressive effort the last several decades to demand they be called christians , as christian as the
    Baptists down the road and this then is connected to why many Mormons would say they
    believe very similar ( but if pressed will admit to having some added “bonus material ) . This
    scenario can hinder a constructive dialogue .

  24. Rick B says:

    Alex said

    Alex says:
    July 18, 2013 at 7:32 am

    but a gross misrepresentation of LDS theology and doctrine. How typical.

    Alex, The only thing typical here is you. On a different thread I said to you, me and Falcon have been saying for years that Mormons claim we are wrong, yet they never tell us how and why. And yet you are not setting us straight.

    I have had many mormons say to me, we believe the same thing as you. They just cannot be honest can they.

  25. Mike R says:

    Kate said , ” It truly is Jesus or Joseph .”
    I think a choice must be made : either stick with Jesus and His saving truths —Rom 1:16; 10:9

    OR , confess Joseph Smith ( and his successors ) and add him to that message .

    I’m stickin with the original, authentic , gospel of salvation . Col 1: 18-23 .

  26. falcon says:

    I kind of wonder what these LDS posters are thinking because the majority of the Christian posters her lately are former Mormons. So it’s not like they can haul out the persecution card. And it seems to me that our former Mormons, now Christians, didn’t leave the LDS church because they were offended by someone or that they had fallen into serious sin or that they are now total deviants. And they all confess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Do these current Mormons who show up here ever stop and think of the irony that these exes confess a deeper abiding faith in Jesus and relationship with God as a result of leaving Mormonism?
    Well I’m certain that none of them would say that it’s all the same; Christianity and Mormonism.
    Mormonism discourages a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I can see why. They want people dedicated to the LDS system and current prophet.
    Consider the following:
    “McConkie’s purpose of expounding upon this topic seems to have been to publicly “correct” and “humiliate” LDS author and BYU religion professor George Pace for having recently published a book which encouraged people to ‘center their lives in Christ and…develop their own personal relationship with Him.’

    McConkie started his public lynching of Pace by saying:

    “I shall expound the doctrine of the Church relative to what our relationship should be to all members of the Godhead and do so in plainness and simplicity so that none need misunderstand or be led astray by other voices.”

    He then stated that members of the Mormon Church “should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ.” He maintained that Mormons had “… never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve…advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with Christ.”

    The irony of all this is:

    1. Within days of this talk, Deseret Books pulbished a book by McConkie’s fellow apostle James E. Faust that included — you guessed it — a chapter devoted to developing a personal relationship with the Savior.

    2. The missionary discussions at that time included an entire discussion on developing a personal relationship with the Savior. McConkie was on the missionary committee that presumably approved of the discussions.

    I guess all of this goes to show that Mormon Doctrine is whatever the dude with the biggest @@@@@ or the largest “@@@@” wants it to be.”

    I made a unilateral decision to do a little editing of the above comments.

  27. falcon says:

    This really goes along nicely with our discussion of “the same as you” claim by the LDS.
    It’s really important to get the LDS folks, especially the MM, to go a little deeper. If nothing else to get them to fess-up and start thinking clearer and hold them accountable for what they are saying regarding “we’re the same”.

    “Do you have a personal relationship with Christ?”, the question was asked of the Mormon missionary. “Yes we do, the Church believes in Jesus Christ, and honours Him as the Saviour”, came the reply. However, when the following questions were asked: “But do you really have a relationship with Him? Do you pray to Jesus and worship Him?” “Well, we pray through Him to Heavenly Father.” It was then asked of the missionary: “Can I ask you, would you pray to Jesus tonight, the Jesus of the Bible?”, to which the reply came: “No. I will not do that.” This true account is typical of the conversations that I have personally had with many Mormons over the years. Mormons claim to honour Christ but fail to give Him the prominence that He rightly deserves.

    “Some (“holier-than- thou” students) begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed. In this conception a current and unwise book, which advocates gaining a special relationship with Jesus, contains this sentence – quote: “Because the Saviour is our mediator, our prayers go through Christ to the Father, and the Father answers our prayers through his son. ” Unquote. This is plain sectarian nonsense. Our prayers are addressed to the Father, and to him only. They do not go through Christ…You have never heard the First Presidency or the Twelve…advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so called special and personal relationship with Christ…never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate and intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Saviour…I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer’s system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church.” (Bruce McConkie, Speech at BYU on March 2 1982).

  28. johnnyboy says:

    This post is making me smile. I have used this exact expression when I would talk to Christians about Mormonism. I’ve watched family do it. I’ve watched church leaders do it. I’ve watched hinkley do it on national tv. Speaking of which, I finally saw the holland BBC interview…. Holy cow was that a big oopsie!!
    Sorry but I don’t want to belong to a church that hires CIA and FBI to spy on its members. Doesn’t sound much like Christ’s church to me.
    Anyhoo, coming out of the Christian closet to my true blue Mormon parents tomorrow. Going to be an interesting Sunday.

    Also, if you think the 60’s had questionable baptism practices, they don’t hold a candle to what was going on in the 90’s down in South America. I went through 4 mission presidents in two years. They were all prime jerks. One was even an area authority who decided that he would go river rafting (cus no swimming rules only apply to those who haven’t received their second anointing). Guess what happened to him? He drowned. He used to scream at missionaries at the top of his lungs in the sacrament room during mission conference. Apparently it was his schtick. Let’s just say I wasn’t surprised when I found out he died breaking his own mission rules. What’s sad is people worship these dudes.

  29. spartacus says:

    Wow Johnny!

    Huge day! I’m sure you know this could go all kinds of ways. And I’m sure you have been going through all kinds of approaches, scenarios, and worst cases.

    I’m sure you know this already, but it may help to be reminded or here it from another. Approach them in love. Pray before, during, and after.

    You might want to emphasize what you have found in Christ rather than what was wrong with mormonism. If you tell them what you felt like in mormonism they may relate. Then when you tell them what Christ has done for you it just might get a little into them.

    In the end knowthat God has done a great work in you and there’s no reason to think He plans to stop just with you. Love them and pray. That’s what I did with my wife and Good surprised me. He can surprise you too.

    Praying for you and yours!

  30. Mike R says:

    Johnnyboy, I will be praying for you and that your parents will understand what you will share
    with them tomorrow .

  31. Alex says:

    Johnnyboy writes:
    “I don’t want to belong to a church that hires CIA and FBI to spy on its members. ”


    You had better watch out – the NSA is on to you.

  32. Rick B says:

    Hey Falcon,
    Did you know their is a bible out that Mormons use that was created by their father Lucifer?
    It is called, The Dry Erase Bible, (D.E.B.)

    See in our KJV we read

    1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

    But the D.E.B Says

    1 peter 3:15 But JUDGE EVERY MANS HEART SAYS the Lord God and see if the questions they ask, are asked with sincerity? Then if you judge that they are then give to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear

    See Falcon, thats why Alex wont set us straight, we simply are being Judged Not worthy of an answer from Him.

  33. falcon says:

    No advice for you from here. I’ve never gone through anything approaching this; what you have to do. You might be surprised, long term, of where your parents are at.
    “Greater is He who is in you, then he who is in the world.” “I am confident of this very thing that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it in the day of Christ Jesus.”

    Looks like you lost one here in JohnnyBoy. But think of it this way, you know to make yourself feel better, he’s just believing all that @nti-Mormon propaganda out there. Being deceived.

    Repeat after me,
    “The church is perfect, the leaders are perfect, the leaders will never lead you astray, when the leadership has spoken the thinking has been done.”

    I’ll pray for you again this morning when I’m in church. I think you need it more than Johnny Boy. He’s come to Christ in faith. I’ll pray that you do the same.

  34. falcon says:

    Since JB brought this up I thought I’d post something from another blog that had a discussion as to whether or not the LDS had “spies”. I think there’s a couple of different levels to this. One is what an organization like the LDS church might do in monitoring blogs and apostate members who publish. The other level is more subtle and I think gets to the issue of Mormons not respecting boundaries and getting into other people’s business.

    Here’s what one contributor had to say on the topic of the LDS church and “spying”.

    Undoubtedly. Ironically, it just happened to me this evening. Sometimes, they are just digging to find out information, I believe.

    I just pulled up to the house, and standing on the porch were two young elders chatting up my 17 year old son. We have lived in this neighborhood for a decade and it was here that we left the church. They wanted to know when they could come by and share a message with us. Bold as bull bullocks the one said, “when can we come by and share a message with you?” Like as if I had already given my permission. I recognized the manipulative tactic from my time in the Missionary Tainting Center.

    I said, “You can’t” and the other one visibly jumped back.

    “Is there anyone else in the area could share a message of our lord and savior Jesus Christ with?” My ten year old pointed across the street and told them to go over there. They are a strong TBM family, they faked like they headed that way but headed back to their car without visiting another house (which was hidden around the corner).

    I’m pretty sure that my parents asked them to check on us, as they have many times in the past. In fact, my TBM parents, former bishop and big shot missionaries, have even had private dicks watch us and snoop (they have admitted it). My parents could just ask, but I’m not about to volunteer my religious beliefs to them based on their past behavior. They would rather sneak than ask, anyways.

    It’s a big part of LDS culture. Remember the PEC and welfare meetings and “come back and reports” — they are snoopers by nature. Too bad prophesy is doesn’t work, because they could just rely on that.

  35. johnnyboy says:

    I don’t have a problem with them spying on me. They aren’t going to find that much to be excited about. What’s sad is you think the strengthening church members committee is some big joke that nobody should care about. Maybe you should go watch Hollands BBC interview and watch him squirm as he tries to explain it. Or watch the head of the church’s PR department try and deny it exists, then backtrack and says he can’t talk about it. Gimme a break. It’s bad enough that my government spies on everyone, but now my church too?

    And speaking of which, why in the hell does the one true church need a PR department?

  36. johnnyboy says:

    Ooh I came up with a great spying technique for the church to use. They could do what Facebook does. When you log into Facebook it tracks what websites you go to if you don’t first log out. Maybe the church could use the same technique when people log into lds.org! That way they could see exactly who was going to dreaded antee Mormon sites (like fair and farms). Then I could get targeted ads when I come back to lds.org that read “Top ten reasons why Joseph couldn’t have written the BOM”.

    Woah, maybe I should work for the church’s PR department. I could help them big time.

  37. Alex says:


    You state: “I don’t want to belong to a church that hires CIA and FBI to spy on its members. ”

    I didn’t think you were serious in your bizarre assertion and hence my sarcastic comment. Apparently you do actually believe that the LDS Church “hires the CIA and FBI to spy on its members”. This is an absurd delusion on your part because no institution (especially a religious one) can hire the CIA and FBI.

    Your bizarre paranoid statements render you as delusional as Rick Beaudin who repeatedly insists that he is actually a Mormon.

  38. falcon says:

    Reality check. I think it has something to do with “ex” not current members of those organizations. Here’s something interesting; sort of related.


    I think the speculation has to do with LDS who have worked for those organizations, retired and then getting hired by the church (after retirement). I don’t think that the LDS church would utilize any of the skills of these guys to do intelligence gathering for the (church). It would be totally inappropriate and we all know that the LDS church would never, ever do anything like that. For example, members never report on one another. Mormon missionaries ever report on one another and BYU students wouldn’t spy and turn in their fellow students for breaking the honor code. Pretty much all ugly rumors with no basis in fact.

    Hay and BTW, Rick is a Mormon! He believes the same as you. He’s even a holder of the priesthood. We are all Mormons here because we all believe the same with a couple of small exceptions. We don’t believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, in the BoM, the current prophet, the LDS church, Mormon temple rituals or the Mormon god or Jesus.
    But we are all Mormons just like Mormons are Christians even though they don’t believe in anything to do with Christianity.

  39. johnnyboy says:


    Obviously if you watched the BBC interview you would know I meant retired CIA and FBI. But that would mean having to watch a beloved apostle humiliate himself in lies. Seems like most other intelligent commenters on here could discern what I was talking about. Unfortunately, you aren’t one of them. And what difference does it make if they are retired or current? The pint is the church hires people to spy on members. I’m sure somewhere in some committee (that holland isn’t a member of) Jesus is smiling with approval.

    Keep up with the personal insults. It really endears people to listening to you.

  40. Brewed says:

    It actually goes more like “We believe the same thing, only better” . Too bad there are ways that seem right to a man but in the end it is destruction.

  41. johnnyboy says:

    Haha. Good old byu honor code. I got reported for having my window open too wide in Deseret towers. I was so befuddled that someone would walk by the towers, notice that a window was open too wide, then take time to count which room number it was and then report it.

    So so bizarre. I got the hell out of utah once I figured out utah Mormons were a very very different breed indeed

  42. Brewed says:

    “BYU students wouldn’t spy and turn in their fellow students for breaking the honor code.”
    LOL, My sis in law worked at the MYU cafeteria when she first started attending and was totally asked to report any men who were not clean shaven. Didn’t BY have a beard??? Sillyness trying to be passed off as “righteousness”.

  43. johnnyboy says:

    Just wait till they start having everyone wearing google glasses to take pics of the long hairs and un shaven.
    I can’t say my time at byu was a total letdown. I was a late night janitor at the wilkinson center back in the late 90’s when they were renovating it. I regularly caught EFY teens sneaking in and making out in the bathrooms late at night. I would spray them with the pink foam “ghostbusters” backpacks we used to clean the toilets.
    Then me and the other janitors would rock out and play some smashing pumpkins over the PA system while we rode the floor cleaners. Good times, free food, good peeps. I do miss playing the piano up in the high dinning room. Was it called the sky room or something? Anybody rember that place?

  44. falcon says:

    I am mortified at your disrespectful and caviler attitude in relating your janitorial escapades. I can see why you didn’t fit in. You’re just way too normal to be a self-righteous Mormon.
    Teens making out in the bathrooms. NO WAY!
    You’re just making all of this up because you’ve been deceived by Satan and good riddance to you low down apostate. You probably never did believe, really.
    But won’t you please come back to the church?

  45. johnnyboy says:

    My wife says we should all hang out someday so I can regale you all with my tales of BYU and mission time. Haha. What’s crazy is I was true blue back in those days. Ah the pre-Internet days. I remember them fondly. Days spent wasting away at mamas cafe and the station watching really bad ska bands

  46. Alex says:


    There is a world of difference between your bizarre assertion that the LDS Church “hires CIA and FBI to spy on its members. ” and the actual case wherein the Church hiring LDS members who are retired from these fine institutions to conduct security analysis and operations. – But heck, why let a little matter of accuracy and honesty stand in the way of making a sensationalist and bizarre statement.

    Falcon, not to be outdone in making bizarre and sensationalist statements asserts:
    ” Rick is a Mormon!” (except he isn’t and never has been).
    “He believes the same as you” (except he doesn’t and never has).
    ” He’s even a holder of the priesthood” (except he isn’t and never has).
    “We are all Mormons here because we all believe the same” (except you aren’t Mormons and have never believed in LDS doctrine or theology).

    Falcon, your mendacity knows no bounds.

  47. falcon says:

    You’re just not getting it. Were all Mormons here. Why can’t you understand that? Now granted, we don’t believe anything about Mormonism but that shouldn’t stand in the way of us declaring that we are Mormons. I don’t know why you don’t get that, mendacity aside.
    You are so slow. I don’t know why you don’t get it. The connections are so clear and the logic is so, well, Mormon.
    Rick is too a Mormon because he says he is. He believes the same as you but he doesn’t but that’s part of the Mormon mystique. You can believe something even if you don’t believe it because you want to, or something. He is a priesthood holder because he says he is and truth is whatever a person wants to define it as being.
    It really doesn’t matter if we don’t believe in Mormonism. We are still Mormons.
    I just can’t see why you don’t see the clear logic of being able to declare something whatever you want it to be and it’s so?

  48. Rick B says:

    Why is it you can say you and other LDS are Christains, you can claim we believe the same things, yet you claim I am not a mormon and I cannot say that? If you a mormon and call yourself a Christain, then I can say I am a mormon.

    And trust me Alex, I see LDS in my area, or even if I am driving down the road, I will stop and engage them, I will even walk up to them while they are stopped and talking to someone, and I will tell them I also am a LDS member and start sharing with the possible convert what the LDS wont share. Like grace plus works after all you can do, how you will be a god someday, if your lucky, the J.S.T of the Bible, and many other things the LDS wont openly share. So how do you feel about that?

  49. spartacus says:


    I would think that you were being facetious but you line-for-line treatment and use of”mendacity” makes me think otherwise. No one thought that Johnny was implying that the LDS church hires “THE CIA” etc, just “CIA”which is commonly considered the person not the institution. If you want to contend with Johnny’s claim you might want to deal with the point, which was spying, not nitpick the verbiage and slander the speaker. Bad form all around. It makes it seem you are more comfortable trying to slander Johnny than dealing with the issue of spying.

  50. Alex says:

    Spartacus et al,

    Word have meanings. I know that Evangelicals love to misrepresent, denigrate and slander everything Mormon but some of these comments are just downright ludicrous.

    When JohnnyBoy writes that the LDS Church “hires CIA and FBI to spy on its members” this is patently false. In other words it is a brazen, slanderous lie.

    When Falcon writes:
    “Rick is a Mormon!” this is patently false. In other words it is a brazen lie.
    “He believes the same as you” this is patently false. In other words it is a brazen lie.
    “He’s even a holder of the priesthood” this is patently false. In other words it is a brazen lie.
    “We are all Mormons here because we all believe the same” this is patently false. In other words it is a brazen lie.

    These statements are like saying you are a Muslim jihadist just because you saw one in a movie once or that you are an Hasidic Jew because you ate a bagel with lox.

    Really, people you can do better than that.

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