Listen for yourself here.
As one Mormon commenter put it:
“As someone who loves and values the church — is active and serves in the church — and as someone who has a lot to gain from being able to believe only the most positive interpretations about the documented events of his Joseph Smith’s life, my impression after listening to this interview is that this is the best interpretation that can be offered to defend Joseph, and it is not very reassuring.
I believe after countless conversations with the church’s critics, that polygamy sits at the center of the critic’s negative view of the church. I think that for probably a majority of the religious people who spend their time criticizing our church, this is the deciding issue which keeps them from ever really considering the truth claims of the church, including the Book of Mormon. In other words, they never get past this issue to consider whether any of the restored gospel truths come from God.
But for perspectives sake, I think it worthwhile that a person consider this whole polygamy issue in the context of all of God’s dealings with His children, including His prophets. It makes no sense to me for a person to reject Joseph Smith on the basis of polygamy but accept Abraham as a holy prophet who established the true religion of Israel. Consider the fact that Abraham was not only a polygamist, but was willing and even made an attempt to kill his own son, Isaac, in following God.
It is quite ironic that Joseph Smith’s critics insist that he would never had made it in today’s environment. Abraham most certainly would not have “made it” in today’s environment either. And you guys consider him to be one of the great prophets in the world’s history.
I am of the opinion that this is not an accident or unintentional.
Not long ago, I did a systematic analysis comparing Joseph Smith and Moses- the relationship to scriptural canon, polygamy, lost and restored scriptures, revelations, role in establishing a divinely revealed system of religious government, etc. I was shocked at the parallels-both in breadth and precision of similarity. God knows what He is doing.
f a person rejects Joseph Smith as a prophet, he or she can be assured that he or she most certainly would have rejected Moses or Abraham in their days. This is what Christ told the Pharisees of His day. They considered themselves faithful followers of Abraham and Moses, yet rejected the God who gave those prophets the revelations and authority that were the foundation of their religion. It is always easier to accept a dead prophet than a living prophet. It is human nature.
Polygamy is simple the tip of the ice berg. The LDS view of God, the nature of God, the Plan of Salvation, the view of the fall, the “need for restoration”, the crazy stuff BY did and said, temple ceremonies, eternal marriage, marriage being essential for the celestial kingdom are all huge issues for us critics. Polygamy being thought of as a command from God is just a reflection of a false view of God.
FOF,
Are you practicing polygamy? Do you believe in it yourself? Do you have anything whatsoever to do with it? President Hinckley condemned it in public, yet knew it was being practiced in your temples and is part of Mormon theology to this day. Your prophets are still lying about it. For me, the nature of God is way more important than Joseph Smith’s lust for women. What Jesus says about Salvation is more important than Joseph’s need to justify his adultery. Keep telling yourself that this is the reason people aren’t chomping at the bit to become LDS. It’s just not true.
A couple of things in this podcast stood out to me. First, poor, poor Joseph, the angel made him do it. He didn’t want to have sex with Fanny Alger in secret for all those years before the revelation on polygamy, but what was he supposed to do? The angel threatened him.
Second, there was nothing immoral about being sealed to all of these women and having sex with them without Emma’s knowledge.
Third, there was no actual writings claiming Joseph was a womanizer from anyone during the time this was going on. Why would there be? He was doing it in SECRET, he destroyed the printing press because he was about to be ousted!
Fourth, most of his polygamist wives did come West, but what’s even more telling is that Emma and Joseph’s own mother refused to come West.
Mormons don’t take the logical next step in the thinking process. They also defend polygamy and worse, polyandry tooth and nail, then turn around and condemn it in public, especially to prospective converts, telling them that polygamy is an abomination to God and it’s the FLDS who practice it. And please don’t confuse them with the FLDS ( not Mormon) church.
Anyone who can read and comprehend, can plainly see that God never commanded Abraham to take another wife. Sara was impatient waiting to become pregnant and gave Hagar to Abraham so he could have an heir. It was Sara not God. Just look at how that turned out because they took things into their own hands. Look at how it’s turned out for the FLDS because they still follow Joseph Smith who took it into his own hands. They are the fruits of Mormonism too.
An interesting podcast with JohnDehlin interviewing Dr. Hales concerning the “Top 12 Myths about Joseph Smith’s Polygamy”. Dr. Hales’ massive 3 volume work entitled Joseph Smith’s Polygamy is thoroughly researched and documented and will stand as the seminal work on this subject.
However, I doubt that most critics of Mormonism will never take the time to read this work or even listen to the 1 hour and 41 minute interview with Dr. Hales. That is simply just too much effort.
Faithoffathers,
Honestly I never payed much attention to the polygamy aspect of the church. That wasnt the stuff that made me question if the church was true or not. Maybe if I was involved with the Mormon sects that still practice polygamy than it definately would have impacted my decision as far as membership. The deciding factor for me was that although the lds church claims God is one they only mean one in purpose and this does not line up with scripture. Deut 6:4-9 states that God is one. Also Isaiah 44-46 speak about how there is “no other God beside Me” and that “before Me no God was formed”. To believe that there is more than One God no matter how you want to say it is to be guilty of Idolotry and break the law of God. I for one will not be guilty of that and I certainly wont drag my daughter down that pagan idolatry road.
Alex,
Nice try, I DID listen to the entire broadcast. Dr. Hale lives in the Mormon bubble. Anyone who was negative towards Joseph Smith was being dubious or lying, including the women he had sealed to him. Anything from people that could be seen as positive towards Joseph Smith is of course the truth. He was willing to admit that there were possible children fathered by Joseph, which is the first time I’ve heard a Mormon admit that. Those women are always considered liars. So tell me, did you listen to the entire broadcast or was it too much effort?
FofF said
“Consider the fact that Abraham was not only a polygamist”
Did you read anything of the hotly contested debate between Shematwater, Grindael & myself on this issue a few months ago? Shem made more or less the same claims as you concerning Abraham & his arguments were blown out of the water simply by using Scripture. Abraham never was a polygamist, he had just the one wife in spite of the fact that your illustrious leaders tell you he had two in a futile attempt to justify Jo Smiths womanising. Try doing a little research instead of just accepting what your leaders tell you.
I have no intention of going through it all again so if you want to know the truth about these things do everyone a favour & read through that debate. When you have done that come back & let us know if you still believe that Abraham was a polygamist.
Kate,
Yes, I did indeed listen to the entire 1 hour and 41 minute podcast. Contrary to the typical silliness of Aaron, I found Dr. Hales remarks on the subject be well informed and well researched and documented. Based on Aaron’s silly comments I doubt that he actually listened to the whole podcast.
Old Man writes: ” Abraham never was a polygamist”.
Really ??? What about Hagar??? Or do your amended scriptures contain no reference to Hagar?
What about the polygamy practiced by Abraham’s sons and grandsons??? Or do your amended scriptures contain no reference to their polygamous marriages???
How do you reconcile your outlandish statement with the Old Testament?
The big buzz from this weekend’s Sunstone Conference in SLC was Cheryl Bruno’s “smackdown” of Brian Hale’s body of work – in particular Volume 3 of his series on polygamy.
Cheryl has gracious posted her Powerpoint presentation from that session here for those interested:
https://powerpoint.office.live.com/p/PowerPointView.aspx?FBsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fdownload%2Ffile_preview.php%3Fid%3D570852999638125%26time%3D1375726863%26metadata&access_token=1416477869%3AAVITB9gUiPmdz6WW7__c7tCMsLExqocygGbLWcLBKgV9Ew&title=Joseph+Smith_s+Polygamy.pptx
And she also provided links to her critique of Volumes 1 and 2 here:
http://www.withoutend.org/thoughts-joseph-smiths-polygamy-brian-hales/
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.withoutend.org%2Fpolygaga-brian-hales-joseph-smiths-bad-romance%2F&h=kAQF2X-or
Here’s a salient sample from the essay on part one:
“Make no mistake about it: this is apologetics. Hales is committed to making Joseph Smith look as clean as a whistle. To do this, he is obliged to paint some witnesses as unreliable, extravagant, and anti-Mormon; yet, somewhat inconsistently, he is willing to accept statements from these or like characters when they support his claims. Hales’ polemical concerns drive him to defend a number of difficult positions such as:
– Joseph learned of the correctness of plural marriage by 1831 (85).
– Joseph was never accused of polygamy prior to 1841 (144-146, and over and over throughout the book).
– A marriage ceremony (as differentiated from a sealing ordinance) took place between Joseph and Fanny Alger in 1835 (198, 109 note 7).
– Authority to perform such a plural marriage existed before the sealing keys were restored in April 1836 (119-120).
– Joseph did not have sexual relations with his two 14-year-old wives, his polyandrous wives who were experiencing conjugal relations with their legal husbands, or any woman to whom he was not married (285).
– Some of Joseph’s marriages were for “eternity only” (421-441).
– John C. Bennett’s licentiousness was completely unconnected with Joseph Smith’s polygamy (ch. 20).”
For those unfamiliar with Cheryl Bruno, she’s a faithful, practicing, believing Latter-day Saint and a trained, credentialed Historian.
Thank you.
By the way,
Prophesy was only used as communication between God and man from Adam to Malachi. Prophesy ceased with Malachi. Amos predicted the cessation of prophesy 200 years before Malachi in Amos 8:11-12. Zech 1 explains that there is no longer a need for prophesy because the message had already been delivered through earlier prophets. God told us the guidelines we are to live by and revealed himself to the people by great miracles and deliverance. Anyone who dares to claim themselves a prophet today is a lier and a false teacher.
Alex said
“Really ??? What about Hagar??? Or do your amended scriptures contain no reference to Hagar?
What about the polygamy practiced by Abraham’s sons and grandsons??? Or do your amended scriptures contain no reference to their polygamous marriages???
How do you reconcile your outlandish statement with the Old Testament?”
I can hardly reconcile an outlandish statement if I haven’t made one. It might help if you read & UNDERSTAND Scripture, better yet, do as I suggested to FofF & read the debate on this subject.
Hagar was NOT, I repeat NOT married to Abraham, she was a gift to him from his wife & following the customs of the time Hagar was ‘used’ to bear a son for Abraham. The phrase “to be his wife” in Genesis 16: 3 is merely a euphemism for sexual intercourse. That is clear from Genesis 16:4 as well as from Genesis 16:2. The context of verse 4 also makes it clear that Hagar was not Abraham’s wife she remained Sarah’s slave. It might help you to understand this if you also read Genesis 16:8-9 nowhere does the Angel refer to Hagar as Abraham’s wife.
Now a brief note to put it in historical context. The custom referred to in Genesis 16:2 is well known in history and for instance in Babylonian law a wife was entitled to get children from her husband through her slave, without any idea that the slave would receive the status of a legal wife. In the Bible the same custom is employed again by Abraham’s grandson Jacob with Lea and Rachel, his wives, and their maidservants Bilhah and Zilpah (Gen. 29:31 – 30:23).
By the way, if I remember correctly it was your so-called prophet who specialised in amending scripture.
Mr. IT,
Thanks for the links. In reading the first review I was struck by this observation,
It seems that the church’s rabid smackdown on polygamy has backfired on them. They have made it so distasteful that most Mormons can’t stand the thought of it. The trite explanations of those like FOF and Alex just don’t cut it. What they try and do is called “transplanting”. They will try and transplant Abraham to our day and say we would have rejected them if they lived now, or that if we don’t believe in Jo’s polygamy we would not believe in them because they practiced it. The problem is, they did not “practice polygamy”. Abraham sinned. He took a concubine at the behest of his wife instead of continuing to listen to God and wait for Isaac. It may have been that God tested Abraham later because of his sin with Hagar. Another problem with Mormon logic about Abraham is that he did not kill Isaac. He was tested, sure, but God had no intention of having Abraham go through with it. This of course was so Abraham would realize the incredible pain that God Himself would bear when his Only Begotten Son Jesus was actually sacrificed for the sins of the world.
Mormon “prophets” have taught that blood atonement is required in any theocracy. This of course is not what Christ taught and is anathema to his Gospel. Mormons have actually carried this out according to the testimony of John D. Lee and others. They took Abraham’s test and made it a reality.
Polygamy will continue to be a thorn in the side of Mormonism, simply because it is still considered “one of the twin relics of barbarism” by the American people. The more you delve into the practice of polygamy, the more distasteful those that practiced it become. Case in point, Martha Brotherton. Dale Broadhurst writes,
The problem here, is that who do we know was lying? Jo and Brigham and John Taylor and William Clayton and Hyrum Smith who were all practicing spiritual wifeism and denying it to the church and the public. So, who do we believe? If you paint John C. Bennett as a liar and a scoundrel, you must do the same for the above named Mormon “apostles and prophets”, because they did the same thing. Jo continually affirmed (and had a “revelation”) that he had the “gift of discernment” (D&C 46:27):
Jo failed miserably with this “gift”, as did his brother Hyrum and others. In fact Jo disciplined Bennett when they found out that he had been practicing Jo’s “spiritual wifeism” and Bennett faked his confession and Jo let him back into the church! The reason why? So Jo could get an affidavit from Bennett saying that Jo was not doing what Bennett was doing, when he most certainly was. But this backfired on Jo, because Bennett was just as much of a scoundrel as Jo was, and played him.
There is no way to make any of this “look good” or have people accept it who can’t ignore it like many Mormons do to stay in the church. You can’t explain away a “prophet” sending men on missions so you can marry and sleep with their wives. This is polygamy folks, as practiced by Jo Smith & Company.
Alex,
The first five books of the bible, Torah, do not outlaw someone from having multiple wives. Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon are examples in which polygamy occured. If you read closely you will see that there were specific reasons why these unions occured. Usually it was to bear children. A Hebrew man is required by God to continue his line so if his wife could not bear children he had to find one who could. Polygamy was not the norm during these times but it did occur. It also wasnt seen as a perfect state for a marriage to be in due to the idea of the 2 becoming 1. It was always used as a last resort.
I know this is a Jewish reference that im going to post but I think it is relevant due to the topic that we are discussing.
http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/558598/jewish/Does-Jewish-law-forbid-polygamy.htm
Alex
I replied to your comment immediatly after reading it but unfortunately my reply is being held in Mod jail. I do hope you will take the time to read it once it’s released as it might help you to understand scripture a little better. Try thinking for yourself instead of following the tired old rubbish put out by your leaders
Old man says:
August 5, 2013 at 11:41 am
FofF said
“Consider the fact that Abraham was not only a polygamist”
Did you read anything of the hotly contested debate between Shematwater, Grindael & myself on this issue a few months ago? Shem made more or less the same claims as you concerning Abraham & his arguments were blown out of the water simply by using Scripture. Abraham never was a polygamist, he had just the one wife…….
Silkworm says:
And all here claim the LDS people do not know the Bible!!!??? That the LDS do not believe in the Bible!!?? Read this from a NON LDS source about polygamy in the Bible.
http://www.gotquestions.org/polygamy.html
Why did God allow polygamy / bigamy in the Bible?
Subscribe to our Question of the Week
389
polygamy Bible, bigamy Bible
Question: “Why did God allow polygamy / bigamy in the Bible?”
“Answer: The question of polygamy is an interesting one in that most people today view polygamy as immoral while the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns it. The first instance of polygamy/bigamy in the Bible was that of Lamech in Genesis 4:19: “Lamech married two women.” Several prominent men in the Old Testament were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. In 2 Samuel 12:8, God, speaking through the prophet Nathan, said that if David’s wives and concubines were not enough, He would have given David even more. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status), according to 1 Kings 11:3.”
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/polygamy.html#ixzz2b7nVzb97
FoF said
FoF, I already told you, we are not criticizing you or your church, I pointed out Jesus said to the religious leaders, You are wrong, you are in err, you do not understand or know scripture.
Why is it Jesus can tell people they are wrong, but we cannot? When the Bible tells us to REBUKE, and Correct those that are in error. Then you said before that we dont answer you, I answered you, but you ignored me. Then before you cry and say, well their are more of you asking questions of me, and only one of me, I asked you a couple of days ago, and before this topic came about, I notice you are good at accusing and dodging but not answering questions yourself.
Then you feel we reject Mormonism due to polygamy and not more serious issues. I dont reject Mormonism because of Polygamy, That would not effect me if I were a mormon, as a matter of fact, I would be blessed with many women if I were to follow and believe. So I could as it were, reap benefits if I were a perv like your false prophet was.
Now here are some things that your leaders said on this issue, but let me first say, I suspect you and Alex will simply ignore what your prophets said and claim, we dont understand what they said or meant, or we are taking it out of context, or something like that.
WOW B Young promises we will be damned if we stop this practice. I guess there will be many damned LDS, as the stopped doing this.
To get to the crux of the matter, Joseph Smith had no spiritual authority, period.
He assumed the mantle of prophet without the anointing of a prophet. That’s why he meandered into polygamy and various other doctrines and practices which are anathema to Biblical teaching.
It is the responsibility of Mormons to discern the true from the false. Those who come here have the truth presented to them again and again but they reject it. Instead they listen to the pronouncements, past and present, of false prophets who don’t even know who God is. Who certainly have no authority to speak for God.
If a people don’t recognize and acknowledge God, they are guilty of blasphemy. In the case of Mormons, they have elevated the Egyptian fertility god Min, as their god. In addition to this, they have embraced a false doctrine in which they themselves will become gods.
There is no authority for Mormon apostles, prophets or for the Mormon priesthood.
The basis for polygamy was wrapped up in the idea that these multiple wives would assure the Mormon male a high place in the Mormon Celestial Kingdom.
At one point in time, Mormon men were having other Mormon men sealed to them.
Like all things Mormon, polygamy is a mess. There are sects of Mormonism who rejected it from the beginning. There are sects of Mormonism who practice it today. And then there are sects of Mormonism like the LDS/SLC branch that endorse it, but don’t practice it.
Mormon men must accept and endorse polygamy to reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom even if they don’t practice it. In that way, the LDS men are closet polygamists.
Polygamy is an interesting issue, and it was an interesting chapter in LDS history. By all accounts, it seems at least suspect that Smith would engage in it, and offer the explanation he offered to support it.
I find the comparison to Abraham stretching logic. Polygamy has never been endorsed in the Bible, if practiced in the OT. In the NT, we have express instructions that one man and one woman come together to become one. Two become one, not three become one, or four become one: two become one. God also never tested anyone to the point of having them commit the sin, as is presented here. If the Abraham analogy were to work, Joseph would have been called to bring in a woman, have her undressed, in bed, etc, and just before the act became final, God has Emma walk in. Or if you prefer another analogy, Smith and young girl at the end of the aisle, and just before they say “I do” someone speaks up and says no, this cannot happen.
But that’s not what happened. Smith engaged in polygamy for a long time, with many women. I don’t believe God would allow someone to sin in order to test them.
Consider the following. It gets at the fact that Joseph Smith and the religion he founded had/has not spiritual authority. That is the reason that Mormonism is a mess. How in the world can anyone dedicate their time, effort, treasure and eventually their immortal soul, to this false religious cult. In order to believe it, a person has to completely ignore the facts and evidence and make up a narrative that will satisfy their desires to believe the Joseph Smith myth.
The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (1835) included a section denying any practice of polygamy:
“Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.” (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 247)
It is interesting to note that this section in the Doctrine and Covenants was in every single edition until 1876, when the Doctrine and Covenants first included section 132 justifying plural marriage.
At that time the Mormon leaders inserted section 132, which permits a plurality of wives. Obviously, it would have been too contradictory to have one section condemning polygamy and another approving of it in the same book! Therefore, the section condemning polygamy was completely removed from the Doctrine and Covenants.
Note that from the current heading of D&C 132, the church effectively admits the above statement by the church was not true:
“Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.”
Book of Mormon
Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; for I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things (Jacob 2:27-30).
Not only does the Mormon church see fit to change directions at will, in doing so they reject their own revelations as found in the D&C and also the BoM. Not only this, but the BoM in its original form revealed and embraced one God and then changed to a god of its own choosing; a false god at that.
Mormonism is a patch quilt religion that can’t hold to any of its own revealed “truth”.
Mormons would do well to look to God’s Word the Bible to find the truth and in finding it receive eternal life.
Catty Jane writes: “Prophesy ceased with Malachi.”
Really? What about Agabus?
How do you reconcile your statement with Acts 11: 27 – 28:
“And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.”
“And there stood up one of them named Agabus and signified by the Spirit that there should be a great dearth throughout the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.”
What about the two witnesses (prophets) mentioned in Revelations 11?
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sack-cloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them and shall overcome them and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Clearly there were prophets in the New Testament and there will be great and powerful prophets in the latter days prior to the Second Coming of Christ as testified by Revelations 11.
Too bad Mormon “prophets” are prophets in name only.
Alex,
I notice you jump on Cattyjane, yet you ignore the issues of the topic at hand. But since your speaking about Prophets, and you believe your LDS prophets, then answer me this. Your prophet said
Now I suspect your going to say, that was BY opinion. So lets say it was just His opinion, can you prove that? He speaks in such a way that it sounds like more than mere opinion. Where did BY get the authority to say, If we dont take many wives that BY can promise us we can or will be dammed .
Alex says,
Really? What about Agabus
I say,
It sounds like you need to school yourself in the profound difference between Old Covenant Prophecy and New Covenant Prophecy. Here is a good place to start…….
http://www.amazon.com/Prophecy-Testament-Today-Revised-Edition/dp/1581342438
quote:
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
(Acts 2:17-18)
end quote:
NC prophecy is not the same thing as OC prophecy
Alex said,
there will be great and powerful prophets in the latter days prior to the Second Coming of Christ as testified by Revelations 11.
It clearly sounds like you need to school yourself on the art of understanding the symbolic nature of apocalyptic literature. Here would be a good place to start.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0840721285
Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
(Revelation 19:10b)
nuff said!!
peace
Old Man writes: “Hagar was NOT, I repeat NOT married to Abraham”.
That is an interesting assertion to say the least. All three major Abrahamc faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) affirm that Hagar was indeed the wife of Abraham and Abraham practiced polygamy as is explicitly stated in Genesis 16:3
“3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband to be his wife.”
This is an explicit statement. It cannot be misconstrued as some sort of euphemism for Abraham enjoying illicit sexual relations. The spiritual legality of Hagar’s relationship with Abraham is confirmed by the Angel of the Lord who promised the continuation of the Abrahamic Covenant (that his posterity shall be as numerous as the stars of heaven and the sand upon the sea shore – Genesis 22:17) through her and her son as well as through Isaac.
Genesis 16:10
“And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply the seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.”
Genesis 16 clearly demonstrates that Hagar was Abraham’s lawful and legal wife. This is affirmed by the Angel of the Lord who promises the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant shall be upon her and her son Ishmael as well as upon Sarah and Isaac.
To suggest that Hagar was not Abraham’s legal and lawful wife necessitates accepting that Abraham (the Great Patriarch of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) is an adulterer and that his son Ishmael is an illegitimate bastard. This is simply not the case.
It should be noted that polygamy was a common and widely practiced form of marriage in the Middle East and northern Africa of 4,000 years ago and still is a common and widely practiced form of marriage in the Middle East and northern Africa today.
Of course you have a rationale and set of steps in your justification in rejecting Joseph Smith as a prophet. The Pharisees also had such steps and rationale. It is no different.
You are stuck here. The Bible is pretty clear that Hagar was Abraham’s wife. But for the sake of argument, let’s say she wasn’t. Where does that leave you? You are left with no justification in rejecting a prophet because he has a wife and concubines. Grindael says Abraham sinned with Hagar. I find that a very interesting claim since an Angel of God appeared to Hagar and told her that ” I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.” (Genesis 16:10) So God was going to “multiply” her seed exceedingly through a sinful relationship? He told her to return to Abraham Sarah. So does this make God a commander of sin? There are some serious issues with that logic. Bottom line is that God has a prophet (Abraham) who is fathering children through multiple women. This doesn’t keep God from establishing the Abrahamic covenant with Abraham, father of the faithful.
Christ came through many polygamists. The great prophets were polygamists. Miriam and Aaron were punished for criticizing Moses for marrying a second wife.
The other thing I am noticing is that nobody addressed the commandment God gave to Abraham to slay his son, Isaac. Using the logic of our critics, there is no way Abraham could have been a true prophet if he was willing to kill his own son. A prophet of God would never be willing to do such a thing.
And I must say that in my conversations with our critics- whenever they are backed up to a wall about various issues, they will always pull out polygamy as a trump card to try to win the battle. I am simply not buying the claim that it is not the end-all be-all for the critics.
FoF said
I dont see anyone pulling out a polygamy card, I see you avoiding questions in many topics and even this topic, But thats Typical of you. Then as far as Polygamy in the Bible, What it boils down to is this, Show me chapter and verse in the Bible where God says to any person or prophet, I God command you to take many wives, and if you dont, I will kill you. The only person God supposedly ever said this to was JS. That is why I reject polygamy, and Your prophets claim we must do it or we will be dammed and this again,
It is claimed that this is a principle that God reveled, and we might as well deny Mormonism if your going to reject it. So FoF, do you practice Polygamy? No you dont, So it seems your not listing to God and your leaders, and now your defending the issue of your church no longer practicing something that your God said was a reveled Principle.
It is reasons like this that I reject Mormonism and claim you are in error of Scripture since you dont know these things, and then you call us critiques.
RickB,
Now you are trying to move the goal posts. It is no longer a question of whether ancient prophets practiced polygamy or even the scriptural suggestions that God so commanded (Hagar being commanded to go back to Abraham and Sarah), it is now demanded that we show that God threatened an ancient prophet with death if he did not practice polygamy. That is precious. But that is how a person who rejects prophets of God operates- no amount of logic or evidence is enough.
And I do not personally practice polygamy. But I believe and accept God’s will in the form of His commanding Joseph Smith to practice polygamy. If I cannot accept that, I must reject Joseph Smith. And if I reject Joseph Smith, I am rejecting Him who sent Joseph Smith. And that would be Christ. And if I reject Christ, I am damned.
Whatever God commands is right. That is what the church’s critics do not have the faith to accept. I do not qualify anything about Joseph Smith’s or Brigham Young’s polygamy. I believe they were commanded of God to do so. Just as in ancient times, not all people are commanded to personally practice polygamy. But they must accept God’s will if He chooses to command other certain individuals to do so.
If a person rejects Joseph Smith categorically based on upon the un-rightness of his polygamy, how in the world can the same person accept Abraham as a prophet when he was willing to kill his own son. Is there nothing wrong with killing one’s son?
Cognitive dissonance. No question.
(I have not refused to answer questions or tried to change the topic on polygamy- but nice ploy).
Honestly I don’t care what or who practiced what, where and when in the OT. I don’t live my life in the OT. Jesus came and gave us a New Testament. He fulfilled the Old. That’s why I don’t stone my neighbor to death on Saturdays when I see them not keeping the Sabbath Exodus 31:15 I don’t kill a Passover lamb every year Exodus 12:1-8 I do wear clothes made with two different kinds of material Lev. 19:19
When God made Adam and Eve, that is what marriage was supposed to be. He set it up that way. He made man and wife. That’s it. Mormons are WAY off the mark if they think Adam was a polygamist. Just because men throughout the years decided to sin, doesn’t mean it was from God.
If Mormons truly believe that polygamy was/is a law commanded by God, then I say they deny the blood of Christ because they have allowed Joseph Smith to put them back under the law and under a curse. Most Mormons aren’t living the law of polygamy so therefore they are breaking EVERY law. If you are going to live by the law you are going to die by the law. I choose to live by faith.
Galatians 3:11-13
“For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”
So which is it Mormons? Was/is polygamy a law of God? Or was/is it a sin? Either way, you lose.
You know our Mormon posters have a pretty low bar set for someone to make it as a prophet.
First of all the Mormons have to do a major amount of propping up and excuse making in order to qualify one of their home boys as a prophet. Quite frankly, they’re a joke, these Mormon prophets. But if that’s all your accustomed to, I can see why Mormons would think their guys are really hot.
Let’s see, a Mormon prophet can be wrong. A Mormon prophet, when he says really stupid stuff which is all the time, is expressing his opinion. A Mormon prophet’s “doctrine”, when subsequent church authorities don’t like it, is “folk doctrine”.
Brigham Young even got nuked regarding who he said the Mormon god was/is. Imagine this. A Mormon prophet proclaims the Mormon doctrine of god and subsequent Mormon authorities treat him like the crazy uncle in the attic. Now, however, the FLDS are Brigham Young Mormons and hang on his every word.
Do I believe in modern day prophets? Sure I do. I read the NT. The Book of Acts is replete with prophets as I’ve pointed out on several occasions. One of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit is the Gift of Prophecy. So I’m down with it, as we hipsters say.
But there are features and characteristics that identify someone as having the Gift of Prophecy and thus being a prophet. It’s for those who are born again by the Spirit of God to pass judgement as to whether someone is indeed a prophet.
Being qualified to judge, as someone who is born again by the Spirit of God, I can unequivocally declare that the Mormon “prophets” are not prophets. Is it by discernment, revelation or just plain common sense that I know this?
Let me just say that even an unbeliever could figure out that the Mormon prophets are as phoney as a $3 dollar bill and that Mormonism is very poor costume jewelry as religions go.
You know we can put this debate on Joseph Smith’s polygamy to bed pretty quickly along with his claims of being a prophet.
Consider that Joseph Smith put a magic rock in a hat in order to “translate” some golden plates with “Reformed Egyptian” written on them; which he dug out of the ground at the direction of an angel he said appeared to him.
Smith married at least thirty three women including adolescent girls and women married to other men. He said that an angel with a sword told him he would kill him if he didn’t do it. He also said that this practice was necessary in order to gain the highest reward in the Mormon men to god program.
I don’t know but that’s enough for me right there. A little digging, without the benefit of a magic rock, yields evidence that Smith had a “woman” or “sex” problem long before he declared himself a prophet. He figured out a way to satisfy his sexual appetite by spiritualizing it and defrauding women. He was a misogamist, an adulteress and a pedophile.
He certainly wasn’t a prophet!
Alex
I doubt if you even read what I said about Abraham & polygamy. If you did then you deliberately ignore the historical context. I don’t know why I waste my time trying to explain something you do not wish to see but I’ll make one more attempt. Hagar was NOT married to Abraham, she was ‘used’ to bear a son for him, as was the custom of the time. Even if your claim that Abraham committed adultery was correct all you succeed in doing is to demonstrate that your false prophet was also an adulterer.
You say this
“Genesis 16 clearly demonstrates that Hagar was Abraham’s lawful and legal wife. This is affirmed by the Angel of the Lord who promises the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant shall be upon her and her son Ishmael as well as upon Sarah and Isaac.
To suggest that Hagar was not Abraham’s legal and lawful wife necessitates accepting that Abraham (the Great Patriarch of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) is an adulterer and that his son Ishmael is an illegitimate bastard. This is simply not the case.”
Genesis 16 does nothing of the kind. You say that the Abrahamic covenant is proof that Hagar was Abrahams wife & that’s totally false. The Covenant, which is first found in Genesis 12:1-3 was Gods promise that ‘all nations’ would be blessed through Abraham & it’s talking of the spiritual blessings that would come through Christ. That’s something very different to the promise given by the Angel to Hagar & her son Ishmael, it’s clear that the promises of the covenant would be applicable to her descendants but ONLY if they accepted the spiritual blessings that were promised i.e. Christ. The Abrahamic covenant was NOT conditional upon Abraham doing anything so again it cannot be used to show that he married Hagar. No matter what Abraham did the covenant was unconditional.
Perhaps you should read chapter 17 of Genesis where the Covenant becomes is made even more clearly. Read especially Genesis 17:15-21 The spiritual blessings promised by God were to come through Abraham & HIS WIFE Sarah
Falcon
Spot on, even a simple comparison between Abraham & Smith will show that there is NO comparison. The LDS simply use Abrahams story to justify the actions of a sexual predator.
That’s right, God multiplied her seed through a sinful relationship. He did the same thing with David and Bathsheba, didn’t he? But what happened to them all because of polygamy? That is what you fail to mention.
Who gave Hagar to Abraham? Not God. Nothing good came out of this relationship.
Sarah begins to mistreat Hagar. She realized the whole thing was a bad idea. God takes pity on her (Hagar) and tells her that her son will have many descendants because of her relationship with Abraham. But what happens to Hagar? God tells Abraham to send her away…
Gee, if this marriage was sanctioned by God, and it was what he wanted, why did he have Abraham send Hagar away? Because of an unruly child? Because two wives didn’t get along? Brigham Young would never have gone for that. But God had already promised Abraham he would be the father of MANY nations. He knew that Abraham would make this mistake. But God used it to serve his own purpose and fulfill his own promise. NOW God tells Abraham to listen to Sarah. About what? To put away Hagar. Why would he do this if he gave Hagar to Abraham in the first place like Jo Smith wrote? He got it all wrong.
Your version of events makes no sense. God even calls her “your slave woman” not YOUR WIFE. God did not recognize the marriage. But he did not blame Hagar for Abraham’s mistake, so he blessed the union because he had made promises to Abraham. God keeps his word.
But God would later try him sorely to see if he would OBEY HIM IN ALL THINGS. And he would do it in a way that would truly tear Abraham’s heartstrings. What did God say to him after the angel stopped him from killing his son? “NOW I know that you fear God…” (Genesis 22:12) Abraham had not feared God, he had followed his own counsel and took slaves as concubines. NOW YOU KNOW WHY GOD ASKED ABRAHAM TO SLAY HIS OWN SON. But God never intended for Abraham to go through with it. Abraham had FAITH that God would keep his promise to him about his son. How could he do this if he were dead? This is the part that you need to focus on. IT NEVER HAPPENED. Abraham’s faith in God was true. And even if he did slay him, God could have given him the power to raise him from the dead. With God, all things are possible. Abraham knew this.
After this, in Genesis 25 it says,
He sent the sons of his concubines away! Why would he do that if they were all one big happy family? Because they had nothing to do with God’s plan for his son Isaac. They were Abraham’s problem, born out of relationships not sanctioned by God. Once again we see that you know little about the Bible and what it really says. That is because you are indoctrinated by the pseudepigrapha of Jo Smith.
All the “great prophets” were polygamists commanded by God to practice it? Hardly. Please prove this. ALL OF THEM? Commanded by God. Prove that. God forbid polygamy. You don’t know what you are talking about. There is no mention whatever of any wife for Isaac other than Rebekah. There is no mention of any concubines, or of any act of adultery. With Jacob, things were different, but not because God commanded it, but rather because his father-in-law tricked him. But Jacob had problems when he was young. With idol worship, for example. Jacob was a mess before he turned to the Lord.
Jacob, with the help of his mother stole the birthright from Isaac by unfair means, by deception, and then his father-in-law (Laban) deceived Jacob. He tricked him into marrying Rachel’s older sister. Leah was foisted on him by deception. Instead of trusting the one true God, he trusts in idols and leans on his own understanding and he marries Leah, works for seven years and then marries Rachel. But God turns the deception foisted on Jacob into a blessing for him, further fulfilling his promise to Abraham.
But who does the chosen lineage go through? Rachel, his real love, not the wife of deception. But Jacob was not yet converted. He followed his own counsel. He did not seek wisdom from God, nor did he seek to OBEY God. He did what seemed right to him, in his own selfish interest. So Jacob lived in polygamy with both wives, and also had children by their two personal maids. Genesis 34 does not mention God once, and is one of the most sordid chapters in Israel’s history. Genesis 35 mentions God over and over again, more than ten times, plus 11 more times in names such as Bethel and Israel. The whole Shechem incident in Chapter 34 happened because Jacob went there instead of to Bethel, where he was supposed to be. Then he finally went where God told him to go (Genesis 31:13)
You can read of Jacob’s conversion in Genesis 32:24-30. He then put idolatry out of his household (Gen. 35:2-4). God appeared to him, and changed his name to ISRAEL and reconfirmed the promises to Abraham. Then God took Rachel his second wife (Gen. 35:19), leaving only his first wife Leah. So, following his conversion, Jacob had but his one original wife. Jacob had repented. He lived no more in polygamy after his conversion.
It is of course true that having concubines was a worldly custom in those days. A harem was a royal status symbol. But it led to sin. God even said so. That is why God FORBADE polygamy, especially for the Kings of Israel. Here is God’s LAW respecting polygamy:
But this was not only for the Kings of Israel:
This law was binding on all of the kings of Israel and also the rest of Israel, else why does God say that the Kings of Israel should not consider themselves better than anyone else? Because they ALL had to follow this law. But… those Kings didn’t listen, and God gave other laws because they kept transgressing his explicit commandments. Read Kate’s post for some of them.
Israel’s first king, Saul, had plural wives. But in this he disobeyed God and followed the custom of the kings of the worldly nations around Israel. It was SIN. It was not approved by God. Every single one of Israel’s kings was sinning when they “multiplied wives” unto themselves. David had a seemingly insatiable appetite for women. He has many wives (2 Sam 5:13), and in the end steals another man’s wife and murders him (2 Sam 11-12). The resulting family was not a happy one; they ended up committing incestuous rape (2 Sam 13) and rebellion which almost destroyed David’s kingdom (2 Sam 14). Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. They led his heart away from the Lord, and led to the break-up of his kingdom (1 Kings 11:3-4).
How was this sanctioned by God? It was not. Would God tell the leaders of Israel not to practice polygamy but then let everyone else do so? That is ridiculous. And the laws that speak of marrying slave women (or taking a concubine) are not commandments, they only explain that if one does so, he is not to divorce his legal wife. (Exodus 21) Those laws were given because Israel could not live the higher law. God knew this and so commanded them NOT to multiply wives, but he knew some would do it anyway. As Paul told the Athenians,
And the Galatians,
One of those many “transgressions” was taking slave concubines. And what happened to David because of polygamy? Mormons love to go on and on about it, but they don’t really go into how evil and sick it was. Read 2 Samuel 12:9-12 and see.
David despised GOD HIMSELF — not merely the commandment of God, as in verse 9, but also the very Person of God! He did it by taking that woman as his wife. It was SIN as was the murder of Uriah. Therefore the sword was never to depart from his HOUSE. The HOUSE OF DAVID, at that time consisted solely of those plural WIVES, and his children. This was a sin of great magnitude. Here is what God did to David for sinning against Him:
His own house included his wives and children. What evil did God raise up? His own seed from those polygamous unions! God has just said the sword will now come upon his house which was his family. But God is not finished. He further curses David and says, “and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.” Who did this? His own son Absalom!
Absalom paid for his rebellion with his life. The wise counselor who had been a tool of the Almighty eventually hung himself. And David? He repented of polygamy. “And David came to his house at Jerusalem; and the king took the ten women his concubines, whom he had left to keep the house, and put them in ward, and fed them, but went not in unto them. So they were shut up unto the day of their death, living in widowhood” (2 Sam. 20:3).
Why would he do this if God had sanctioned those marriages? Marriages “for time and eternity”? Ridiculous. You ask would God bless a union conceived in sin? He did it again, with David and Bathsheba. He blessed them with Solomon. Do I really need to go into the extravagant demise of Solomon? How idol worship that came directly from disobeying God about polygamy turned him from God?
“As David his father had done”. POLYGAMY. David did not worship idols, and Solomon did not commit murder as David did. So it was polygamy that was the evil. Yes, Christ came through the lineage of the polygamous Kings of Israel. But only because God promised it. But those Kings suffered greatly because of their indulgence with women, and not keeping God’s command not to multiply wives to themselves.
Polygamy is inherently evil. Jo never repented of it. He was a false prophet, and it helped cause his murder. Now please bookmark this so I don’t have to repeat myself as I have done three or four times now.
Addendum:
Why did God say he “raised up the Pharaoh of Egypt who did great evil? (See Exodus 9:16 and Romans 9:17.)
Yes, and how do many treat women in the countries that practice it? They shoot young Muslim women in the head who dare to speak out against their treatment of women. They throw acid in their faces. They deny them their equal rights. Or perhaps like Heber C. Kimball who said that he thought no more of taking another wife than he did of buying a cow.
Following on from Grindaels post above, all I can say to Alex is “So what?” I fail to see how a non-Christian, non-Hebrew, forbidden by God practice, supports your contention that Abraham, a man called ‘the friend of God’ practised polygamy.
The purpose of Mormon theology regarding polygamy is what? Have any of the Mormon posters addressed that? They would much rather spin yarns about OT prophets practicing polygamy.
So the Jews taught that men must have multiple wives in order to be able to procreate more spirit off-spring in the pre-existence to populate the various worlds to be ruled as gods?
As I always do, I challenge Mormons to go find me a sect of Jews that believe and teach such a thing. Is that in the Bible, OT or NT? Of course not. Why not? Because it’s an invention of Joseph Smith and the 19th century Mormons.
So,
According to the theology, God has created a multitude of spirit children who need the male-female union to be born into this world and sent on their eternal path upward. The children may one day become gods over their own worlds.
With polygamy, an average man is able to father many times more children than he would with only one wife, and thus bring more souls out of the pre-existence and set them on the path to eternity.
A common belief in Mormonism is that all humans are the literal offspring of God. Mormons are told that we all existed as spirit children of Heavenly Father prior to our “mortal probation” here on earth. Believing that the gestation period of a spirit child in the preexistence could possibly be comparable to that here on earth, Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt supported the notion that God had multiple wives in order to enhance his ability to populate this world in a much shorter period of time.
I could provide the quotes but why bother?
Our Mormon posters are running hither and yon in order to try and justify polygamy and satisfy their own desires to believe a lie.
So basically what we have in the Utah based LDS cult is a bunch of apostate Mormons. The only true Mormons are those who practice polygamy. This “Mormon Lite” flavor isn’t true Mormonism. It’s some sort of hybrid notion toggled together to satisfy the federal government. At least the FLDS has the courage of its convictions and would appear to me, the holders of the “true” restoration. So what does this do to the SLC/LDS power of the Mormon priesthood? Leaves it null and void I’d say.
John Taylor
“Where did this commandment come from in relation to polygamy? It also came from God…When this commandment was given, it was so far religious, and so far binding upon the Elders of this Church that it was told them if they were not prepared to enter into it, and to stem the torrent of opposition that would come in consequence of it, the keys of the kingdom would be taken from them. When I see any of our people, men or women, opposing a principle of this kind, I have years ago set them down as on the high road to apostacy, and I do to-day; I consider them apostates, and not interested in this Church and kingdom” (JOD 11:221).
Willford Woodruff
“If we were to do away with polygamy, it would only be one feather in the bird, one ordinance in the Church and kingdom. Do away with that, then we must do away with prophets and Apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether and turn sectarians and do as the world does, then all would be right. We just can’t do that, for God has commanded us to build up His kingdom and to bear our testimony to the nations of the earth, and we are going to do it, come life or come death. He has told us to do thus, and we shall obey Him in days to come as we have in days past” (JOD 13:165 – p.166).
Joseph F. Smith
“This doctrine of eternal union of husband and wife, and of plural marriage, is one of the most important doctrines ever revealed to man in any age of the world. Without it man would come to a full stop; without it we never could be exalted to associate with and become god…” (JOD 21:9).
Orson Pratt
“…if plurality of marriage is not true or in other words, if a man has no divine right to marry two wives or more in this world, then marriage for eternity is not true, and your faith is all vain, and all the sealing ordinances, and powers, pertaining to marriages for eternity are vain, worthless, good for nothing; for as sure as one is true the other also must be true.” (JOD 21:296).
So we can see that those LDS types that come here and post and try to justify polygamy in the early Mormon church have lost their way and are indeed not practicing the Mormon faith as intended. They want to justify the practice but they won’t engage in it.
As far as I’m concerned they are phoneys.
Then we have Mormons who come up with all of these convoluted reasons for early polygamy such as there were widows who needed to be taken care of so these Mormon men, out of the goodness of their hearts, took them in by marrying them. What a bunch of hog wash. They don’t even know why the principle was introduced, why it’s still on the books and why Mormons believe it will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom.
Wise up Mormons!
@grindael
Dude, you are my hero. This comment thread is pretty much done.
Before my Mormon exodus I had an interesting conversation with my parents about polygamy. My mother was watching a program on the FLDS and she was so shocked and disgusted at how they lived. Particularly with polygamy. Now, my mother knows all about historical Mormon polygamy (apart from smiths little adulteries) and yet she was appalled at the FLDS. I proceeded to explain that after gay marriage becomes the law of the land the next thing will be polygamy. And as soon as that happens the church will welcome back with open arms the FLDS. My mother exclaimed “that would never happen!” I asked her why not? They are not breaking the law and they are following the commandment of plural marriage as outlined in D&C. Just then my father walked into the room and chimed in “he’s probably right, honey.” I then explained to her that the church will gladly welcome thousands of new members in this day and age. They can’t afford not to!
I also had to explain that the church does still practice polygamy as there are men in our own ward who have been sealed to different wives who had died. They weren’t practicing polygamy with two living wives, but they were practicing it. My mother just got quiet after that and didn’t want to talk about it cus it forced the issue into her mind that one day she will have to deal with polygamy in heaven. And I could tell this bothers her and many other modern women in our church today. They can talk all day long about how important they are and how they “don’t need” the priesthood like men do, but sooner or later they have to confront the issue that one day in heaven they will be just another wife among many. Most just passify themselves in believing that because they are “wife #1” that they will be “more special” than other wives.
Way to go Mormon sisters. Keep deluding yourselves about polygamy.
I’m curious to what others on here think the Church will do once polygamy is made legal. Anyone got any ideas?
Kate,
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as well as Ephraim and others practiced polygamy before the Law of Moses. So your argument that polygamy was attached to the Law of Moses and therefore fulfilled with the atonement of Christ doesn’t make sense.
And as I said in my previous post- for the sake of argument, if we say that it was a sin of Abraham to practice polygamy or that Hagar was a concubine, God called him as a prophet and honored him above any other prophet through the Abrahamic covenant.
Also, consider (nobody has) God’s commandment for Abraham to slay his son. You must reject Abraham as a prophet because he tried to kill his son. What a horrible and sinful thing to do. No prophet would be willing his own flesh and blood.
You guys reject God’s prophets just like so many in the days of Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah. It is absolutely not different.
Every criticism you level against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ultimately based on a double standard that you don’t like to acknowledge. And that is every criticism.
Even the atheists are at least consistent. You guys are always talking out of both sides of your mouth in your criticism of LDS history and doctrine. You constantly apply two different standards in evaluating the church vs. your own religion and faith.
FOF,
Notice I said Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament? That includes all OT laws, not just the law of Moses. He gave us a New Testament. The reason you can’t comprehend all of this is because you don’t know Him. You don’t understand or put your trust and faith in the Jesus of the Bible, instead you give all you have, faith, trust, time, money, etc to a man claiming to be God’s mouthpiece. Tell me, when has Thomas Monson ever spoken for God? Why don’t you still practice polygamy today? Falcon has shown what your past prophets have said about discontinuing polygamy, yet you aren’t practicing it are you? You don’t even listen to your own prophets when they do speak, so why should I? The fact that you Mormons turn to the Athiests time and time again is very telling.
Grindael has done a fantastic job showing that God never commanded anyone to practice polygamy. I suggest you go read it.
Kate,
Still nothing about God’s command for Abraham to slay his son.
I accept the law of polygamy. I am not commanded to live it. But I accept God’s command of others to do so. I have stated this before.
Not sure why you didn’t get that.
There is nothing contradictory in any of this.
(By the way, Grindael has done nothing of the sort. This is the “mental gymnastics” so often referred to by our critics. God commanded Hagar to go back and be with Abraham and Sarah. He promised her a numerous posterity through that relationship. No twisting and manipulation will change that).
But still no engaging my point about Abraham. You guys rely upon your own logic and brains instead of relying upon God. And that is ultimately why you reject His prophets.
FofF
You keep asking for someone to respond to this comment
“Also, consider (nobody has) God’s commandment for Abraham to slay his son. You must reject Abraham as a prophet because he tried to kill his son. What a horrible and sinful thing to do. No prophet would be willing his own flesh and blood.”
I’m sure others are well able to answer you if they consider it relevant but until they do I’ll leave you with this.
If you are prepared to say that Abraham must be rejected because he tried to sacrifice his own son then logically you must be prepared to reject God because He not only tried to sacrifice His Son, He actually succeeded.
You then say
“You guys reject God’s prophets just like so many in the days of Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah. It is absolutely not different.”
Sorry FofF it’s very different, your prophets simply don’t meet the criteria laid down in Scripture. A prophet is a man who receives information directly from God therefore anything they declare MUST come to pass. Out of the approximately 65 prophecies which were uttered by Smith during his time as a prophet about 5 were fulfilled & they were merely educated guesses which any reasonably intelligent person could have made.
I suggest you read Deuteronomy 18:20-22
FoF, you’re getting agitated again. I actually think this is a good thing, because you speak more honestly when you are agitated.
Now, the points you bring up as unanswered have been answered. You may not like the answers, but they have been provided.
Polygamy is a problem for the church. In earlier posts, you have said that the Trinity is a barrier for many to be believe in God. Do you not see that there is at least a similar problem in your position on polygamy? At least the Trinity is consistent and can be found in the Bible. At least the Trinity is not dependent on a man who claimed to have started it over threats of death from an angel. At least the Trinity was not abandoned due to desired statehood.
And Abraham was not allowed to commit the murder of his son. Smith was allowed, actually told under threat of death, to sleep with other women.
I know you said you come here to defend your faith, but I am not sure there is not more to your presence here. I’ve told you over and over that God wants you, and He wants you to know Him on a real and personal level. This is very true. I hope that you open your heart to Him.
New Testament scholars seem to be in broad agreement, for good reasons, that even though polygamy was generally a live option in first-century Judaism, Jesus forbade it completely. Jesus’ arguments with the Pharisees on divorce build clearly upon the Jewish exegesis of Genesis that was used in monogamist polemics against polygamy within intra-Jewish debate of the time. Moreover, Jesus’ reconception of adultery as something that could be committed against a woman is an incoherent move unless we recognize that Jesus forbade polygamy in his ethical teaching by pointing to monogamy as the creational ideal. (For a good discussion of this, see David Instone-Brewer’s treatise Divorce and Remarriage in the Bible: The Social and Literary Context, which I’m currently working through.) Given this fact, it is impossible that Joseph Smith’s polygamy was a righteous and inspired act.
Moreover, we know that Joseph Smith utterly disregarded the strict Mosaic restrictions on acceptable forms of polygamy (such as forbidding concurrent marriages to sister-sister pairs [e.g., Leviticus 18:18], concurrent marriages to mother-daughter pairs [e.g., Leviticus 20:14], and marriages to already-married women [e.g., Leviticus 18:20]), which restrictions represent a move (albeit incomplete) in the direction of establishing God’s ideal of marriage (on which, one might see William J. Webb’s volume Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermeneutics of Cultural Analysis, which contains a worthwhile presentation of the criteria by which one can discern the ‘redemptive hermeneutic’ involved in heightened ethical standards through progressive revelation). Some of these restrictions were likewise violated quite flagrantly by other polygamists among the early LDS leadership.
In light of these two points, given that Joseph Smith lived in the second millennium of the Christian era rather than the second millennium before the Christian era, his revelation on polygamy cannot have been of God, and it is a wholly fair conclusion even on just this basis (but a conclusion, I add, bolstered by many other corroborating lines of inquiry) that Joseph Smith can safely be dismissed as a false prophet.
Old man,
I think you are missing the point. God asked Abraham to do something that went against God’s own commandments and every sense of right and decency within Abraham. It was a test of Abraham’s faith. All the references to Abraham’s faith and obedience in the Bible are centered on this event and his trust in following this commandment.
My point is that the critics don’t ever really consider this type of testing by God in the context of our day. I bring this up here because I believe it was this type of test for Joseph Smith and others, including those who live in our day. And the critics do not follow the example of Abraham. Instead of asking whether the commandment relating to polygamy came from God, the critics only focus on the why. Why would God do this? And because it goes against what we feel very deeply is right in our day, you guys categorically dismiss it and reject it. I am not saying that anything that goes against God must be accepted. But I am saying you guys reject it without any consideration of anything else. This is like Abraham refusing to obey God’s command because it went against his ethic and God’s previous commands.
johnsepistle- God’s commandment for Abraham to slay his son went against what God had said about murder after Cain and Abel. That negates your argument above.
Whatever God commands is right. You guys are not allowing God to be God. You are expecting Him to conform to your will and sense of right vs. wrong.
FOF,
I don’t know if I should even attempt to address you charge against Abraham being a murderer because I know what you’re doing. It’s called mis-direction. That is, see if you can get the Christian posters off on some other topic so you won’t have to deal with polygamy.
I don’t know how I can say this kindly, so I’ll just say it and let the chips fall where they may. Mormons, like their brothers in the Watch Tower faith, are a warehouse of ignorance and misinformation.
I can’t see why you don’t get the symbolism of what is going on with Abraham and his only Son. Is that a hint? In the Bible that’s called a “type”.
Also, Abraham is all about faith. For Abraham believed on the Lord and it was counted to him as righteousness. A Mormon won’t understand that because in Mormonism you have to earn it. Abraham’s faith resulted in imputed righteousness. God declared Abraham righteous based on his faith.
We’re talking about spiritual things here and the natural man cannot appraise spiritual things, in fact they are nonsense to him.
I pray for you often and in one of my prayers I saw a tornado. God showed me that this was you. Alex has a heart of stone and Shem has shackles. A tornado is a very powerful swirling wind that is out of control. It just blows and destroys whatever is in its path. It has no focus or purpose but it does have a lot of energy. Eventually a tornado blows itself out.
I think when this happens to you, you will be ready to listen.
Alright, you say God does not command polygamy in the Old Testament. Fine. But it is not condemned. There is no Scripture in the Bible where God condemns polygamy.
grindael said: ” David did not worship idols, and Solomon did not commit murder as David did. So it was polygamy that was the evil”
Wrong! The evil was disobedience to God’s other commandments. To say that the polygamy was the problem with David and Solomon is selective reading.
In the 2 Samuel 12:8 God said He gave David his wives and would have given David more wives and other things if David had asked.
GOD GAVE DAVID WIVES!
David got into trouble for killing Uriah to get Uriah’s wife for himself. God did not give David that dead man’s wife the way God gave David his other wives. The sin was not polygamy. The sin was murder and coveting another man’s wife! That is what got David into trouble. Not polygamy.
Solomon got into trouble because the foreign women he took as wives did not worship the God of Israel, the foreign women worshiped false gods, idols. Polygamy was not the sin!! The sin was that Solomon married ungodly women, and eventually left the True God of Israel and worshiped the pagan gods of his foreign wives. Solomon built altars for the pagan gods. God commanded His people to not marry foreigners because the foreigners worshiped pagan gods. Solomon broke that commandment and married ungodly foreign women and eventually turned to paganism.
http://www.blainerobison.com/concerns/polygamy.htm
Protestant Polygamy
Other Christian advocates of polygamy arose in the 17th and 18th centuries, most notably John Milton (1608-1674), the famous author of Paradise Lost, Martin Madan (1726-1790), an itinerant English preacher in the Calvinist Methodist movement and author of Thelyphthora, or A Treatise on Female Ruin, and Wesley Hall (1711-1776), brother-in-law to John Wesley and dedicated evangelist. Hall had the distinction of actually practicing polygamy and yet many churches and Christian evangelicals supported him throughout his ministry (Milton).
This is a ridiculous straw man argument that I addressed below. Abraham did not slay Isaac. It never happened. But it proves that Abraham actually was a prophet, because he was actually speaking to God, who made sure it would not happen. Elihah called down fire on the Priests of Baal. That was horrible too. The Old Testament is full of such things. Deal with it. As Kate said, we have a New Covenant. Abraham practiced sacrifice. We no longer do that under the New Covenant. You, like the atheists put out trivial objections that are only diversions. The fact is, the Mormon church holds Abraham as a prophet for doing the same “horrible” thing, so you are being a hypocrite. And Abraham did not commit a sin in that instance, since he did not sacrifice Isaac.
God did not command Hagar to go back to Abraham and Sarah (the second time). God commanded Hagar to leave. It’s right there in the Bible you never read. Hagar was told to go back in CHAPTER 16. She was told to leave in CHAPTER 21.
14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba.
LOL. Jo said an angel FORCED him to practice polygamy. God did not FORCE Abraham to do anything. Abraham was told that his faith was enough. Jo Smith actually went ahead with polygamy and did actually SIN, because he broke his own commandment not to do so and lied about it. There is a world of difference between Jo Smith and Abraham.
It is you who reject the Bible and what it actually says. The lurkers will see the truth. This is what you do best FOF, create bogus arguments you make up or take from non-believers and then set up a false dichotomy to try and prove your point because that is all you have. And all you can do is mouth the same tired old whiney talking points over and over again. “You guys reject the prophets like the Pharisees”, “you guys would not believe a prophet today”, “you MUST reject Abraham” because I said so,” la, la, la, ad nauseum. Unfortunately for you, it is different, because Mormon “prophets” are prophets in name only. They have been shown to be false over and over again. And just like many other Mormon apologists backed into a corner, you bring up the atheists. ***YAWN***
One final thought for you FofF something I omitted in my previous post. You say that the Angel told Hagar to return to Abraham & Sarai but that was not the case. Hagar was told to “return to your mistress & submit yourself under her hand” that could not have happened if Hagar had been married to Abraham, rather she would have been told to return to ‘her husband’ it’s clear from the verse that Hagar was still Sarai’s property, & therefore could not have been Abrahams wife.
Here’s a link for you to peruse at your leisure, it might help you to understand the historical context of Genesis 16.
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0116.htm
Silkworm said
“Alright, you say God does not command polygamy in the Old Testament. Fine. But it is not condemned. There is no Scripture in the Bible where God condemns polygamy.”
That’s true, there is no explicit condemnation from God concerning polygamy but, study of Scripture shows that polygamy was punished by God. Would God punish polygamists if polygamy was acceptable to Him?
“In the 2 Samuel 12:8 God said He gave David his wives and would have given David more wives and other things if David had asked.
GOD GAVE DAVID WIVES!”
You accuse Grindael of selective reading, that’s rather hypocritical of you to say the least, read 2 Samuel 12:8 again & understand it in the historical context. God is saying to David that He gave him (David) his masters house & HIS MASTERS wives. It was the custom of the times that a former kings wives were the responsibility of his successor. Nowhere does it say that God would have given David more wives. That’s just an assumption on your part given to support your belief in polygamy. Why not read the rest of chapter 12 & see how God punished David, not just for causing the death of Uriah but also for taking his wife.
If, after all this you still believe that polygamy is acceptable to God then answer these questions.
1) How many ribs did God remove from Adam to create his helpmeet, was it one or was it several?
2) Why has the ratio of men to women remained consistently at 1:1?
You are not reading in context. David inherited those wives when he became the King of Israel. The Lord “gave” them to David in the same sense that he “gave” him everything else. God commanded the Kings of Israel (and everyone else) not to practice polygamy. David sinned and broke that commandment. So did Solomon. David should have put away those wives (care for them but not sleep with them) when he inherited them, but he did not. That is how he sinned. God gave guidelines for the provision of women when men did break his law. That is all there is to it.
David was fully devoted to the Lord in worship. He did not worship Idols. David lusted after the wife of another man and took her and married her. His killing Uriah is irrelevant here, because the taking of Bathsheba alone is a sin. Marrying her was a sin, he broke the Levitical Law that said not to multiply wives to himself. He also committed adultery. This is the same thing Jo did, when he sent off men on missions so he could sleep with their wives! It is ADULTERY. This is the same law that Solomon broke. In that, their hearts were “not fully devoted to the Lord”. This is what the scriptures say. God did not command David to practice polygamy. As King of Israel, AS WAS THE CUSTOM OF THE DAY, he inherited Saul’s wives. But when David repented, HE PUT THEM AWAY AND NEVER SLEPT WITH THEM AGAIN. Why? Because it was wrong and he knew it.
Your argument (no matter where you got it from) is wrong. You are judging David under the standards of the New Covenant. He was not living under the New Covenant.
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one. (Galatians 3)
Those same “transgressions” were committed by Abraham, Jacob and many others, and brought them nothing but grief.
First of all, the website where you got your information from misspells John Wesley’s brother-in-laws name. It’s WESTLEY HALL, not Wesley Hall. Typical for those that would try to use a bogus argument. He was not “supported” in his foray into polygamy. He only took it up after leaving Christianity and denying Jesus resurrection:
The Moravians did not practice polygamy. They started a prayer movement (for 100 years) that many believe inspired the Great Awakenings.
When it came to his own daughter, Martin Madsen all of a sudden didn’t like polygamy anymore,
No one takes these isolated incidents seriously, because they can’t stand up to scrutiny. Stop quoting from websites that twist and distort the truth. It’s getting old, Silkworm. Once again, we see that an advocate for polygamy only wanted to justify committing adultery just like Jo Smith.