Listen for yourself here.
As one Mormon commenter put it:
“As someone who loves and values the church — is active and serves in the church — and as someone who has a lot to gain from being able to believe only the most positive interpretations about the documented events of his Joseph Smith’s life, my impression after listening to this interview is that this is the best interpretation that can be offered to defend Joseph, and it is not very reassuring.
FoF,
What do you miss about God stopping Abraham, but not stopping Smith?
So Mormons are really the restoration of the OT Jews?
I guess that’s what we’d have to assume since our Mormon posters are insisting that the practice of polygamy by Mormons is what was done by the OT Jews.
……and it was for the same reason?
The OT Jews believed that they would become gods because they were going to their temples and practicing rituals that were the same thing as the Free Masons? Because we know that’s where the Mormons got their temple rituals; from the Free Masons. So did the Free Masons get them from the OT Jews.
……and we also know that the American Indians were descendents of a lost tribe of Jews that came to the Americas on magic boats. I don’t know if they were powered by magic rocks or not. Were these Jews that traveled in these magic boats polygamists also?
What a fantasy trip these Mormons are on. They reject God and His Son so that they can follow a man with a magic rock.
FOF said :
” God commanded Hagar to go back and be with Abraham and Sarah. He promised her a numerous posterity through that relationship. No twisting and manipulation will change that”
WHAT?! What version of Genesis are you reading? Ive read genesis from beginning to end 3 times in 3 translations and have never heard of Hagar being commanded to go back to Abraham. The opposite is what happened. She was commanded to leave, God promised to take care of her and her child. He never told Hagar to go back. In fact this was something that upset me deeply until I realized God would take care of her. I couldn’t believe God would let Abraham use Hagar and just throw her out into the wilderness when she had done nothing wrong. Go read your Bible because you are obviously missing something.. Abraham was never commanded to have another wife. He and Sarah stopped trusting God and took matters into their own hands and caused a huge amount of heart ache and trouble for themselves, Hagar, and Ishmael.
At around 7:20 Brian Hale is talking about the myth that Joseph was a known womanizer. He states he found only two (dubious) accounts made at the same time that the allegations were made. One account had to do with Fannie Alger. Based on that account, Hale asserts that one could conclude that Joseph’s relationship with her could be either a polygamous marriage or adultery.
Are we to accept that if that relationship were proved to have been a polygamous marriage everything was hunky-dory and on the up and up? No marriage to Fannie Alger would have been considered legal, and thus would have been considered adultery by the State of Ohio (or where ever they lived at the time). Also, all indications are that the true nature of the relationship, marriage or not, was kept a secret from Joseph’s legal wife, Emma. That alone marks the relationship as adulterous.
So, either way, polygamous marriage or secret, rocking-and-rolling in the barn adultery it was all adultery. Someone already observed that Hale is living squarely in the Mormon bubble. No kidding, especially when his implication that a polygamous marriage would give Joseph a pass. Oh, and not to even mention that Fannie was all of sixteen or seventeen. Who cares that women married younger back in the day, which isn’t true to begin with. Okay, let’s grant that Fannie’s age wasn’t a factor in making her relationship with Joseph problematic. In contrast to the marriages of other sixteen year olds in the 1830s, where was Fannie’s family? Who was the pastor/minister/judge that performed the rite? In which church hose was it held? Where was the fete held to celebrate the new union of a man and woman? I could go on. Nothing can make the Fannie Alger affair anything less than the adulterous abuse of a young girl by an emerging lech.
Again, to make my point about God making provisions when the Israelites sinned we have this in Deuteronomy,
The above is nowhere near Mormon “Celestial Marriage”. Nothing like it. Notice how the Law states that the whole situation of “marrying” a captive slave is summed up with humiliating the woman. That the Law would not allow them to show favor to a loved wife over a captive slave for the rights of the firstborn. This is why God commanded against polygamy. The LAW allowed it, because of TRANSGRESSION. From the Jewish Encyclopedia under Polygamy:
Of course the Jews do not believe in Christ, nor his Apostles who revealed that the Law was added because of transgression, but they totally understand that the provisions that deal with polygamy were added because it was widespread and pervasive, but certainly not the norm for the people of Israel. The prophets frowned upon it, because they knew that it was not of God. It was a man made institution, that tended to bring sorrow, disturbance, and grief.
Brewed,
Check out Genesis chapter 16:
“And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.” Genesis 16:7-11
Do you still argue that I am incorrect?
falcon- I understand the “type” of Abraham and Isaac. But that is completely beside the point. God commanded Abraham to kill Isaac. Abraham was willing to obey God despite knowing and feeling that such a thing was always previously condemned. That is the point. I see that you don’t understand that.
And it is completely beside the point that “God provided” an alternative sacrifice instead of Isaac. The point was to test Abraham to see if he would obey God. And Abraham passed the test because he was willing to follow God, even in killing his own son.
Grindael- mine is not a straw man argument. It is a very clear demonstration of the double standards of Joseph Smith’s religious critics.
And I am not “being a hypocrite.” I am showing your inconsistencies- you reject one prophet for doing something considered bad but accept another prophet for doing something considered bad. I am consistent in accepting both prophets for following God in doing something that normally is considered bad. The lack of clarity in the thinking in the arguments from you guys is astounding.
Also Grindael- your difficulty with texts continues- you say, “God did not command Hagar to go back to Abraham and Sarah. God commanded Hagar to leave. It’s right there in the Bible you never read. Hagar was told to go back in CHAPTER 16. ” Which is it? Was Hagar commanded to go back or not in chapter 16?
I will help you out. In chapter 16, “the angel of the Lord” commanded Hagar to go back and submit herself to Sarah. Sarah had given her to Abraham “to be his wife.” The term “angel of the Lord” almost always refers to Jehovah Himself in the Old Testament. There is no way in the world you can claim that God did not command Hagar to go back to Sarah and Abraham. Yes- He later told her to leave, but that in no way means Hagar was not initially commanded to go back. It is right there in chapter 16.
But all this really is beside the point. You guys dismiss the point about Abraham’s willingness to slay Isaac because God ultimately provided an alternative sacrifice. That really doesn’t matter. The two commandments are quite different in their severity- one is killing a son, the other is marrying more than one woman. You are making conclusions without justification.
You guys reject the prophets, and you would reject Abraham and Moses if you lived in their times.
FoF,
Any significance that God stopped Abraham but did not stop Smith? I am not the only one to bring up the point, and you have not addressed it. It seems more plausible that if God were testing Smith, he would do as he did with Abraham and stop the act before it happened. If you are going to make the comparison, you have to account for this difference.
The main reason that polygamy is a wrong is because it mars the picture that marriage is supposed to paint. God intended to marriage to illustrate the union between Christ and the Church.
quote:
“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two (NOT THREE) shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
(Ephesians 5:31-32)
end quote:
Christ is not united with more than one Bride and the church is not to be wed to more than one bridegroom.
quote:
For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.
(2 Corinthians 11:2)
end quote:
When we corrupt marriage we are in essence lying about God. That is a big deal.
That is the core reason that things like same sex marriage and polygamy divorce and adultery are wrong.
Those perversions of marriage present to the world a skewed and twisted picture of the union between Christ and his Church. That is a very serious sin.
That is one reason that the only allowed martial situation of those in leadership in the Church is strict monogamy.
JS’s claims to authority in the Church should be rejected for this reason alone.
quote:
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, (1 Timothy 3:1-2a)
end quote:
peace
FofF
You keep saying that Hagar was told to return to Abraham & Sarah, did you not read what I said in an earlier post? Hagar is NEVER told to return to Abraham. She is told to return to Sarah. Why can’t you simply quote from Scripture instead of adding to it?
Let’s look again at Genesis 16:8-9
How did The Angel of the Lord address Hagar when He met her beside the road?
He said “Hagar servant of Sarah” Why didn’t he say Hagar, wife of Abraham?
What did Hagar say to the Angel? She said “I’m running away from my mistress Sarah” Why would she say that if she was married to Abraham?
Then the Angel of the Lord said to Hagar “Go back to your mistress and submit to her” Did you notice that? Return to your MISTRESS, Abraham isn’t mentioned at all in those verses which is a rather surprising omission if, as you claim, Abraham had taken her for his wife.
Please think about these things FofF
Ps. the only prophets we reject are the false ones that you follow.
FoF,
“Still nothing about God’s command for Abraham to slay his son.”
HELLOOOO! How many times do I have to say this to you before you GET it? I don’t live my life in the OT. I live in the New, and if you were a true Christian you would live your life in the New Testament and not allow Joseph Smith to put you back under the OT and under a curse. I don’t really care what God did with Abraham or the others. That wasn’t really for my time other than to show the way to Christ. I live my life for Jesus, I follow His teachings and commandments. I DON’T LIVE IN THE OT! Please tell me that sunk in. That is the answer to all the questions you bring up about anything in the OT. I follow Jesus not a prophet, need scripture to verify this?
Hebrews 1:1-2
“1Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.”
I live by the Son. You choose to reject living by the Son and you have allowed yourself to be put back under a prophet. This clearly shows that you don’t know the Son.
BTW, you still haven’t answered when Thomas Monson has ever spoken for God, I will be waiting….
As for Isaac God had ever right to demand the sacrifice of the child that he himself had provided. Abraham knew this as did Sarah. It would have been just for God not to stop Abraham’s hand.
Granting for the sake of argument that it was wrong for Abraham to agree to God’s demand that is still not the equivalent of what JS did.
Abraham did not authorize others to sacrifice their children but JS authorized others to engage in polygamy. He tried to get others to join him in his actions
Although it is not scripture the very early Christian text called the
And every prophet teaching the truth, if he doeth not what he teacheth, is a false prophet. And every prophet approved and found true, if he doeth ought as an outward mystery typical of the Church, and yet teacheth you not to do all that he himself doeth, shall not be judged before you; he hath his judgment in the presence of God; for in like manner also did the prophets of old time.
Didache 11:11-12
As for Isaac God had ever right to demand the sacrifice of the child that he himself had provided. Abraham knew this as did Sarah. It would have been perfectly just for God not to stop Abraham’s hand. God can do such things but as has been pointed out a major reason for this whole thing was to typify the atonement and demonstrate God’s grace and Abraham’s faith.
That is nothing like the supposed command given to JS.
Even granting for the sake of argument that it was wrong for Abraham to agree to God’s demand that is still not the equivalent of what JS did.
Abraham did not direct others to sacrifice their children but JS authorized others to engage in polygamy. Unlike Abraham JS wanted to get others to join him in his actions.
Although it is not scripture the very early Christian writing called the Didache address this very point
quote:
And every prophet teaching the truth, if he doeth not what he teacheth, is a false prophet. And every prophet approved and found true, if he doeth ought as an outward mystery typical of the Church, and yet teacheth you not to do all that he himself doeth, shall not be judged before you; he hath his judgment in the presence of God; for in like manner also did the prophets of old time. And whosoever shall say in the Spirit, Give me silver or anything else, ye shall not listen to him;
(Didache 11:1o-12a)
Did you get that? If a supposed prophet does things that are wrong it does not automatically disqualify him, that is unless he like JS teaches others to do the same thing.
peace
sorry about the almost duplicate post. not sure how it happened I must have hit send unintentionally before I was ready
FoF, Your both a Liar, and a hypocrite on many levels.
You keep claim we are critiques of your church, But as I said before, The Bible tells us to Rebuke those and correct those that are in error, and Jesus even said to the religious leaders, You are in error of scripture and dont know it. Why is it the Bible and Jesus say this, but according to you we are not allowed to do it? You keep avoiding that issue, but complain we dont answer you.
Then it was/is your leaders and your scripture that says, to show you your error if their is any, and if JS is a fraud to prove it, yet you ignore that.
Then as I stated before, Your leaders said this,
How can they claim Polygamy is a principle reveled by God, and that if we reject that principle we will be damned and might as well just turn away and reject Mormonism. Yet you also ignore this and wont address it, problem is, You must disagree with your prophets and your god since they said this, but then later contradict themselves and claim Polygamy has come to an end, all ordained by the same God who claimed it was a principle. That makes you a hypocrite and a liar.
I love it when Dr. Hale says there is just no evidence that Joseph Smith had sex with all of these women. Think of the time period. Would these women really be out comparing notes? They thought it improper to even show their ankles LOL! No one knew who was married to him and who was not!
Can you imagine being a secret plural wife and a good friend of Emma’s? I can’t imagine sitting next to my good friend in Relief Society or even worse in Sacrament, knowing that I was secretly married to her husband and had just had sex with him the night before without her knowledge. What mental anguish some of these women must have gone through. What mental anguish Emma must have felt when it all came out in the open.
After Joseph died, she denied polygamy ever happened. Even to her children. I can’t imagine the hurt of finding out that my husband had secretly married at least 32 other women and that all those times he slept over at Benjamin Johnson’s house, he was having sex with them in an upstairs bedroom. No wonder she tuned it out and lived in denial.
Do Mormons even think about these women at all? The Mormon posters here have all been men and of course they support and defend Joseph and his philandering, but what do Mormon women think about this? Do they ever take the logical next step? All they have to look forward to in eternity is what these poor women in the 1800’s suffered through. No thank you! So glad I am free from this nightmare!
FOF,
I will comment to your Isaac/Abraham question.
First lets read what Genesis 22:3-5 states,
“Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and the WE will come back to you.”
Notice that the scripture says WE will come back to you. He isn’t talking about his servants because they are staying behind. He also isn’t talking about the boys’ body because this is a BURNT offering. The boys body will be burned. So he is talking about the boy and himself returning to them. Abraham was under the ten tests of faith during this time from God. Abraham believed that if he did as God asked of him that God would resurrect his son. He did not believe that God would actually accept a human sacrifice because he knew that there was a prophetic protest against human sacrifice. God never commands human sacrifice to be offered.
It wasn’t a test that God didn’t know the answer to but it was used to set an example for others. In Genesis 22:12 it states: “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” When he said “For now I know that you fear God” it meant that God has made known to all men how far man is obligated to go in fearing him.
Abraham knew that God would provide a way for his son to live. Abraham thought it would be by resurrection and not an alternative sacrifice. Abraham was prepared to obey and this act was symbolic of his readiness for martyrdom. He was willing to sacrifice his son in order to complete the will of God.
FOF,
So God commanded Abraham to sin? Is that your point? You are accusing God of being a partner to sin?
Now I can understand how you would think that since the Mormon god was a sinful man who through obedience to the Mormon system on some far far away planet, became a god.
Man are you messed-up, totally! You just don’t get it. You need to take off those Mormon magic glasses and see God’s Word as it is and not through the distortion of cult thinking.
I will never understand how a people will reject God and buy into these fictitious man made religious fantasies. It’s bad enough that you are condemning yourself to an eternity separated from God, but what about your family? There’s no forever family in the sweet bye and bye out there in the pretend Celestial Kingdom.
I urge you to come to Christ and in so doing receive for yourself the gift of eternal life that God is offering you. In so doing, as the spiritual head of your house, you can influence your family to do the same thing.
I will pray specifically for you and your family tonight. I will pray that the Holy Spirit shine the light of understanding on your household this very night. Perhaps someone in your family will come to Christ and be an influence to you since you don’t appear to be open to God’s call.
You can’t be this stupid can you? Keep reading until you get to Chapter 21, genius. As I explained below and you purposefully left out of your reply, Abraham kicked out Hagar after Sarah had Isaac. It’s easy to say what we would do, because you know nothing about any of us. This is all you got? No wonder you know nothing about the Bible.
And I am not rejecting any BIBLICAL (or real) prophets. Only your false ones. Your prophets have all kinds of problems that are irreconcilable. Especially the fact that we don’t need them as “spokesman” for God. Prophets prophecy. Yours do not. They can’t even figure out where the Book of Mormon took place. No surprise there.
falcon,
Like many others here, I think you are playing dumb.
I have stated many times that whatever God commands is right. Right means the opposite of sin.
Abraham did not sin in following God. It would have been sin not to follow God.
I don’t know how to make this any clearer.
God’s commands will not always be easy. Sometimes, they will even contradict what is comfortable or logical. Without this paradox, we can hardly claim to have faith.
It really is a pretty simple thing.
Thanks.
Others have already aptly deconstructed the rationale that faithoffathers is using to completely ignore any possible argument against modern polygamy. (It’s manifestly clear that FoF very resolutely *wants* there to be no conceivable way in which his position could be contravened, and therefore is desperate to not allow for one.) To follow FoF’s line of thought, we would have to ultimately conclude that there is literally nothing that anyone could possibly say or do that would give us any pause in swallowing hook, line, and sinker their claim to be a true prophet of God. (If it were suddenly discovered that Thomas S. Monson had, for the duration of his church service, been in a longstanding homosexual affair with another man, and if Thomas S. Monson were to claim that he had received a revelation from God commanding him to do so, would FoF really think that this should be uncontroversial?)
The case of Abraham is, of course, not sufficiently analogous. There was no flat prohibition against all killing for Abraham to flout, only a prima facie prohibition against taking human life. God’s ‘command’ to Abraham, in light of the fact that (as the reader later discovers in the Akedah account) he never intended to have Abraham carry through on the action, cannot by any means be paralleled to the fictitious ‘command’ of God to Joseph Smith to practice polygamy, which was carried through on. Under the new covenant, as per the teaching of Jesus, polygamy is invalid and thus adultery. Jesus left no room for any thought that God would command polygamy, since God never commanded polygamy in the first place (and in those same passages, Jesus is very emphatic in distinguishing what God ‘commands’ from what God ‘allows’ and regulates).
The traditional Christian position is the one capable of dealing with the sweep of the biblical evidence. The Mormon position is incapable of doing so, preferring to make misguided pleas about the inscrutable sovereignty of God (but at the expense of his consistency and perhaps even sanity). And even if, to be overly generous to FoF’s protest, we restructured the argument along epistemological terms, this would be seriously problematic for Mormonism.
Moreover, even if FoF’s argument were a reasonable and legitimate one, it would at most (again, being far more generous than the situation actually warrants) diffuse the first of my two lines of reasoning against Joseph Smith’s polygamy; it does nothing to address the second point (that Joseph Smith’s polygamous practices violated scriptural restrictions), since we lack even claims that each of Joseph Smith’s otherwise-prohibited plural wives were commanded specifically by revelation.
Given the lack of substance in FoF’s rejoinder, nothing more need really be said here. His protests, being quite contrived, do nothing to blunt the force of the case.
I’m almost starting to think FOF isn’t even Mormon, but rather a well disguised troll that exists purely to make Mormon apologists look bad.
😉
FoF is a troll,
Notice how he cannot answer me. That tells me everything I need to know. And he wonders why I reject JS as a prophet.
FOF
I thought your premise was that Abraham was sinning in that he was considering “murdering” his son.
So which is it my friend? You can’t have it both ways saying that Abraham was sinning and then saying that he was following a command of God.
This is typical Mormon thinking. I don’t know if it’s a case of “having one’s cake and eating it too” or “cognitive dissonance” of which Mormons are so famous. The latter is holding two opposing views in mind at once and seeing them both as true.
“The state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, esp. as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.”
“…….the discomfort experienced when simultaneously holding two or more conflicting cognitions: ideas, beliefs, values or emotional reactions.”
“A key assumption is that people want their expectations to meet reality, creating a sense of equilibrium. Likewise, another assumption is that a person will avoid situations or information sources that give rise to feelings of uneasiness, or dissonance.”
This is what eventually pushes some Mormons to seek answers to the perplexing contradictions in Mormonism. It happens when the Mormon “shelf” just becomes to cluttered with unexplained information. For example, we’re dealing with polygamy as our topic here. So our Mormon posters have to chase about to come up with some sort of explanation for this dastardly behavior on the part of their original leaders. That’s why we get all of these convoluted explanations and the stretching of credulity to try and establish some sort of emotional and intellectual equilibrium.
It goes a long way to explaining why we non-Mormons have a wide-eyed, head snap reaction to the explanations Mormons give. It’s a form of “logic” that doesn’t exist in the real world but is part of the Mormon culture and experience.
FOF,
FoF,
Yes you are incorrect, Keep reading. Specifically, read Genesis 9:10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21.
Also note that Joseph, as in Joseph The Dreamer, was sold to Ishmaelites in Genesis 37:28.
Ishmael went on to create a nation but it was not the chosen nation. God used Ishmael. God does that. He takes mistakes and does great things with them. As far as I can tell, Ishmael is the only son Hagar had from Abraham. Notice the jealousy and pain it caused.. You only read far enough to confirm what you believe and quit. Always keep reading.
**Correction**
That is supposed to be Genesis 21:9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21.
johns
I admire your work here. It’s intelligent, well thought out, well written and reasoned. It is logical……….and that is the reason FOF won’t get it!
FOF “thinks” Mormon. It’s a whole different form of thinking and reasoning. It’s cultic in nature.
Walter Martin said, “Mormons are able to think logically in all areas of their life but not when it comes to their religion.”
The problem is that they have to come up with explanations that will fit their emotional state that began when they thought they received a message from God, they suppose, that the BoM is true. From that point on they are obligated to believe everything in Mormonism; even those things that have changed, been flipped or are totally inconsistent and not supported by facts. They have a variety of mental gymnastics to keep the magic moving along and preserving that feeling. Among the most reason is the explanation that certain things from their leaders were opinion or folk doctrine.
I’ve always found it kind of interesting that when a Mormon gets the thrills and chills about the BoM, it covers everything Mormon not just the BoM.
Sandra Tanner talks about how her and Gerald, after long study, had discarded everything in Mormonism, finding it to be false, but decided to hold on to the BoM. That was it! Well of course that tome didn’t stand up very long either and out the door they went and into Christian ministry they vaulted.
FoF,
I don’t want to pile on you any more. Everything I could say about polygamy has been said above. Polygamy never was a command. Abraham was stopped by God– Smith was not. Etc. Etc.
I pray that you come to know God in a real and personal way. Knowing Him is very easy: just ask him into your heart.
FoF–
I want to emphasize the point about you knowing God. Its ultimately what all of this is about. I know you think you know God within Mormonism, but what you think you know is not the God of the Bible, the one true, loving and merciful God who saves all who believe. I know you think you know the right God, but you don’t.
You’re god is one among many, though he may be the one we worship. Your Christ is a creation. Your faith only takes you so far. While it may be the driving force, you are the one driving. Your god cannot save you. Let me clarify: your god cannot take you to the ultimate salvation without your own efforts. Your god might save you from outer darkness, but he’ll still keep you away from ultimate glory if you don’t do your part. Only you can work to get to ultimate glory– not your god. Your god is impotent unless you do your part.
Why go through this? To demonstrate the power of my God. All you need to do is to trust in Him, to believe in Him, and you receive ultimate glory. That’s it. That’s all.
Now, I hope you don’t see this as a competition. Its not. Its definitely not meant to be a “my god is better than your god” message. I mean here to speak to you about the ultimate meaning of all of the discussions we have had, and all the discussions we will have concerning your faith and ours. It all boils down to this simple truth: all you have to do is believe in God, to ask Him into your heart, to be saved.
The rest of it does not matter. It is discussed to help whoever reads and considers this information work their way to this simple truth. You have stated you do not like this message– you find it trite and dishonest. No, that is simply not true.
Know that we are sincere, and that we want you to see the truth. We are not out to embarrass or disparage you, or any Mormon (or anyone for that matter). We want you to know God in a real and personal way. We, all of us (I assume), pray that you do this. The one, true God is amazing and beautiful. I hope you see this.
I think the Mormon posters here need to take their focus off of Abraham and put it on Joseph Smith. Really study how he practiced polygamy. He did it in SECRET. He had a printing press destroyed because it was about to print all of his sinful behavior for the public to read. This was part of the reason he was put in Carthage jail. If the new and everlasting covenant is required for one to achieve the celestial kingdom, why was it being practiced in SECRET and only by a select few men? Was Joseph picking and choosing who was worthy to be exalted?
Dr. Hale said there will be more women in the celestial kingdom than men and these women will need a husband. This is so laughable. There has never been more women than men in Mormonism. Look at the FLDS, this is what the LDS would look like today if they were still living this. There would be underage girls thrown into it, incest, men marrying sisters, cousins, aunts. Brigham said that was right and good. What happens to the boys in polygamy? Most of them are kicked out of the community, into a life that is completely foreign to them, so that the oldsters can have the young girls for themselves. The FLDS are the product of Joseph Smith, no getting around this. They truly live the Mormonism Joseph revealed. The LDS are hypocrites, they condemn the FLDS and are appalled at the way they live polygamy yet defend Joseph Smith for the exact same thing. They take a true prophet of God (Abraham) and try to justify the adultery of Joseph Smith by comparing them. It turns my stomach. Abraham was NOTHING like Joseph Smith.
Please study Joseph Smith and his polygamy. Put your wives, sisters, daughters, mothers in the position of the women who lived this. See it for what it was.
I think the polygamy discussion is kinda pointless to have with LDS for the specific reason that there is not a direct commandment in the laws of God that forbid it. I did point out in my post that when it was practiced during the OT there was specific reasons for it. I think the only way it can be argued is to say that God may not have forbid the act but he also never commanded it. To say that he commanded it is to add to the words of God, which I would never want to be guilty of.
God delivered his laws within the first 5 books of the OT. These laws were complete and without flaw. Since God is unchanging there was no need to add or take away from his law. Humans were not created so that we would elevate ouselves but so that we would elevate God. Every law and command was given to show a distinction between those who worship the true God of Israel and those who dont. Every person who abides by the laws of God bring glory to God above, not glory to ourselves.
That is the difference between the laws of God and the laws given by the self proclaimed LDS prophets. The so called law of polygamy does not bring glory to God but glory to self by claiming that it contributes to eternal progression. That is such an abserd idea! I want an LDS person to show me in the OT where the idea of eternal progression was ever present! I bet you cant!
Actually Brewed,
Your first version is what FOF needed to do. In fact, he needs to read the entire Bible. So here it is again,
Or even NT if you base your beliefs more on that. It will still be a fail!!
Cattyjane,
I think it’s very important to discuss polygamy with Mormons because it gets to the heart of Joseph Smith’s character and shows him as the false prophet that he is. He was a liar, money digger who cheated his neighbors, a charlatan and an imorral man who deceived many into believing in a false god. He has convinced people they must practice polygamy to attain exaltation and He has convinced them that they will practice polygamy for eternity.
Grindael has shut down the LDS here with scripture. Abraham was never commanded to practice it. This is the claim by LDS, that it was commanded of Joseph Smith just as it was commanded of prophets of old. They have scripture wrong and need to be told. If we don’t discuss polygamy with them, how will they ever be told they are wrong? I don’t see this as pointless, we are planting seeds 🙂
Kate,
Ok I see your angle now. 🙂 yes if a prophet is saying god commanded something when he didnt than he has been proven to be a lier regarding the word of god. Therefore he cant be trusted in any other areas as well.
I don’t intend to make any more comments on why Polygamy is not acceptable to God but I thought that some of you might like to read part of a resignation letter written by an ex- Mormon to his Bishop. The letter is far too long to copy in its entirety (15 pages) but the short extract below, which I copied from his letter, is quite revealing:
“Here is a quote from a letter written by a 30 year old return missionary who recently left the church and it sums up my thoughts and feelings on this subject very well:”
“I’ve been asked once by an LDS apologist if I would be okay with Joseph Smith’s polygamy and polyandry if I received a witness that God really did command Joseph Smith to participate in these practices. The question is not if I would “be okay with” God commanding Joseph Smith to secretly steal other men’s wives and to marry teenage girls barely out of puberty. The question is “Do I believe that God did such a thing?” The answer, based on comparing D&C 132 to what actually happened, along with my personal belief that there is no such thing as an insane polygamist god who demanded such sadistic, immoral, adulterous, despicable, and pedophilic behavior while threatening Joseph’s life with one of his angels with a flaming sword…is an emphatic and absolute no.”
Enough said?
Well said, Old Man. Great quote.
I want to say this on the issue of Abraham and his son Issac. Mormons feel God commanded Abraham to kill his son, well first off, he never killed him. Second, God said in His ten commandments, Thou shalt not kill, so why would he say that, then tell Abraham to kill his son? We know that is was just a test, and also a type of God the father and Jesus later to come.
Rick
Your reasoning is skewed. God did tell Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice. God stopped him at the last minute. It was years later that Moses came down with the Ten Commandments.
I have to comment on some of Fof F’s strained reasoning in trying to defend Mormon
polygamy .
He said that for probably a majority of the religious people polygamy is the deciding
issue which keeps them from ever considering the truth claims of the Mormon church ,
including the Book of Mormon, they never get past the issue of polygamy to consider
whether any of the restored gospel truths come from God .
But since Mormon leaders have claimed polygamy is a “restored gospel truth” , and
considering what was taught about it’s importance by them , it really is’nt necessary
to go much further in an evaluation of Mormon leaders truth claims because they’ve
claimed to have been personally directed by Jesus to introduce polygamy as a
essential ordinance of His gospel in His church , and that kind of claim is about as
serious as it gets . If they’re wrong about this , that would render them as unreliable
guides , men who ” teach for doctrine the commandments of men ” .
He said: ” But for perspectives sake , I think it worthwhile that a person consider this
whole polygamy issue in the context of all of God’s dealings with His children, including
His prophets . It makes no sense to to me for person to reject Joseph Smith on the
basis of polygamy but accept Abraham as a holy prophet who established the true
religion of Israel . ”
I agree we should consider polygamy in the context of all of God’s dealings with His
children . That’s why it’s crucial to take all the Bible not just the Old Testament .
Mormon leaders claimed to have restored the same church and truths of the gospel
that Jesus had established through His apostles 1700 years earlier , so this is the
crucial claim to be evaluated by all today .
If it’s false that’s is a valid reason to reject Mormon leaders , but not Abraham .
He said: Not long ago I did a systematic analysis comparing Joseph Smith and Moses …
I was shocked at the parallels —both in breath and precision of similarity . God knows
what He is doing ”
I once saw a list of similarities between Joseph Smith and another latter days prophet,
James Strang . It was shocking . Both claimed to be divinely appointed by God ; both
had a political life ; both had a army ; both were polygamists ; both were tried in court
but found innocent ; both dug into the ground and found plates to be translated; both
claimed to receive revelation resulting in new scripture; both had witnesses see and
testify about the new scriptures ; both were assassinated in the month of June ; both
the churches they started are still around today . I supposed there might even be
more similarities . So what . This proves nothing substantial in evaluating their
individual claims or specific teachings .
He said : ” If a person rejects Joseph Smith as a prophet , he or she can be assured that
that he or she most certainly would have rejected Moses or Abraham in their days.
This is what Christ told the Pharisees of His day .They considered themselves faithful
followers of Abraham and Moses , yet rejected the God who gave those prophets the
revelation and authority that were the foundation of their religion. It is always easier
to accept a dead prophet than a living prophet . It’s human nature.”
But we’re not in their days , we’re in the latter days . We can test prophets easier.
Jesus tried to remind Jewish religious leaders that the scriptures reveal Him but many
could’nt see that truth , they were so busy with authority as teachers over others , but
the common man was in a better situation to discovered the truth about Jesus . This
is similar to those stuck in Mormonism . Rank and file members are coming to see the
truth about Jesus while their leaders are to engrained in their high offices and authority
Clyde,
You know what is really sad and heartbreaking? Is the lies to which you lds believe, teach and defend.
You correct about Moses and the ten commandments and Abram.
You point out I am wrong, but you wont and cant tell me where I am wrong when I point out that your prophets have said, Polygamy is a principle reveled by God, And we will be damned if we stop doing it, we might as well reject Mormonism if we reject polygamy, and as many LDS kept saying, even faith, we are nothing but Critiques of your church, yet the Bible tells us to rebuke and correct those in error, your prophets and scriptures claim the same thing, Jesus did it.
Then as many LDS and FoF keep saying, we must obey all of Gods commands and laws, yet no LDS can give me a list of them, tell me if they themselves are following them all, and then tell me Why if Jesus said, all we must do is believe upon Him, and love God and our neighbor, we are doing all His laws and commands since they are all summed up in love.
So thats whats really sad, is the things you guys cannot and will not answer, But then still claim we are wrong and you have the truth, so Clyde, Thanks for reply to me and proving my point. With What I said about Abraham, I was hoping you or FoF or Alex or some LDS would say something, and not one of the Christians, so I could make this point on what you guys will answer and what you will not. So, again, Thanks Clyde. Now can you answer some of the more serious questions? I doubt it, you can only ramble and are nothing more than a troll as has been stated many times before.
I suspect FoF has finally let also since he cannot himself answer any questions and keeps getting proven wrong.
Clyde said to Rick
”Your reasoning is skewed. God did tell Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice. God stopped him at the last minute. It was years later that Moses came down with the Ten Commandments.”
Ricks reasoning is not skewed, whether the Ten Commandments came before or after Abraham is totally irrelevant in this case, unless of course you’re suggesting that until Moses ‘came down’ it was not a sin to take a life. Face it Clyde, from the time of Adam it was known that taking a life was a sin, remember Cain & Abel? Rick is absolutely correct in saying it was a test, God never intended that Abraham should kill his son.
Understand that & then apply the same logic to polygamy.
MikeR,
I think it is very naive to think that it is somehow “easier” to determine who is a true prophet today than in any other day. There is absolutely no justification for such a claim. Human nature has not changed. And God’s nature has not changed. We are separated from Him and must follow the Spirit to determine truth.
God challenges and tests our faith. He did in the past and He does it now. That is essentially my whole point in this thread. God certainly tested Abraham by commanding him to do things that were not comfortable and went against what Abraham previously understood as right. But for some reason, the critics cannot get past this and recognize that we are in the very same position with the restoration. I am not claiming that we should simply accept Joseph Smith or any other person because the did things that we typically perceive as wrong. The ultimate source of truth is the Spirit of God. My argument is that this Spirit is not followed in determining whether Joseph Smith was a prophet because people decide in their brains that Joseph could not have been a prophet because of polygamy, etc.
Your point about the Pharisees is typical of our critics, but uninformed. The primary criticism Jesus leveled against the Pharisees is that they were hypocrites- they taught one thing and did another. In fact, Jesus taught the people to do what the Pharisees taught because they sat “on Moses’ seat.” They lifted themselves up above other people in their brains and drew proverbial boundaries between who was righteous and who was not. They were very quick to judge and condemn. They based their religious standing on tradition and reject the “newcomers.” That sounds a lot like a group of people other than Latter-day Saints.
Yes, here we have FOF condemning everyone for criticizing his self proclaimed “prophets”. So, FOF how have any of us here “taught one thing”, but “do another”? Are you going to tell us all that we don’t keep the commandments? That we are not sincere in our worship of God? That we don’t love God and our neighbors? The problem is, you have no basis to judge anyone here. Your own “prophets” fail to meet the criteria of the Bible. We are told by Jesus himself to “test” those that claim to be apostles. (Revelation 2:2). Yet, we are called hypocrites for doing so. Not one of us here have “lifted” ourselves up above anyone else. Not any more than those in the Bible have, or are you saying that Peter, Paul, John and others, who called those who taught heresy, “anti-Christ” had also done so? The way to approach this is with answers. But that is a funny thing, neither you, nor your so called “prophets”, have any.
FofF
Forget polygamy, forget the Pharisees, forget all the tiresome arguments proposed by your LDS apologists, because no matter what claims Smith or the LDS may make, the fact remains that unless you can prove that there was a NEED for a latter day prophet you don’t have a leg to stand on. I get a little tired of reading all the arguments, some of them to be frank, bordering on the ridiculous, that are put forward to show that Smith was a prophet. Why not do the simple, straightforward & honest thing & prove to us that a latter day prophet was needed. Surely God would have foreseen this & would have placed a warning in His word telling us that the Church would fail & would have to be restored by yet another Prophet? Please show us something along those lines or at least a prophecy concerning the coming of a prophet in the last days. To be honest the only mention I have seen concerning anything remotely like that is the warning about the man of lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
What ALL Mormons fail to realise is that if Christ truly was who He claimed to be there would be NO NEED for a prophet to restore what He established, why can’t you understand this? The answer to that is all too obvious, it’s because you don’t know the Christ of the Bible. I have mentioned this several times in previous topics & the only response I get is the well-worn apologetic
“Christ didn’t fail to establish the Church, it was men who failed & the church fell into apostasy”
This is said without providing an ounce of proof & only serves to demonstrate that they have NO UNDERSTANDING OF WHO CHRIST IS.
If Smith was called by God to restore what Christ established then all I can say is that the entire venture has been a spectacular failure. If God truly was the driving force behind Smith then the LDS would by now have replaced traditional Christianity & I wouldn’t even be here debating this with you. The plain fact is the LDS doesn’t even begin to compare in its worldwide appeal with the primitive Church even before it’s so-called apostasy.
Having said that I can now turn to all you LDS apologists & say “its your church that has become apostate” You are so keen to tell prospective members that they should pray concerning the truth of the BofM (the most correct book on Earth) but why do you do that? Your doctrines cannot be found in the BofM in fact the only truth to be found within its pages is the scripture Smith copied from the Bible the rest is fiction.
So, as Joseph Smiths church has clearly fallen into apostasy can we expect another latter day Prophet any time soon to restore what the previous latter day prophet failed to restore?
FoF,
“Your point about the Pharisees is typical of our critics, but uninformed. The primary criticism Jesus leveled against the Pharisees is that they were hypocrites- they taught one thing and did another. ”
Isn’t this what your prophet Joseph did? He taught polygamy and denied it publicly. He was practicing it for years, but lied openly. Why does he get a pass on this?
Section 132 is still in your scriptures, it’s still doctrine, a revelation, doesn’t revelation trump a declaration? So your church teaches one thing and does another. I could do this all day. Your leaders have done this from the beginning. Would you say they are Pharisees? LDS are doing this right now where polygamy is concerned, does that mean you are a Pharisee?
“Not long ago I did a systematic analysis comparing Joseph Smith and Moses …
I was shocked at the parallels —both in breath and precision of similarity .”
Why don’t you do a list of parallels between Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs? They are more alike in their teachings, practices and words than Joseph Smith and Thomas Monson. Does that mean Warren Jeffs is the true prophet of Mormonism?
Old Man,
“So, as Joseph Smiths church has clearly fallen into apostasy can we expect another latter day Prophet any time soon to restore what the previous latter day prophet failed to restore?”
You have one right there in England. His name is Matthew Gill. He has restored what has gone astray and with Joseph Smith’s Mormonism and he has added more revelation about the British Isles. He claims Joseph Smith was never a polygamist. Check him out.
FoF,
I intend to address the testing of our faith in this response, but first would like to point out your not answering my earlier question on the comparison to Abraham and Smith. Since you have not addressed the question on the difference of why God stepped in and kept Abraham from killing Isaac and why he did not step in a stop Smith from sleeping with other women, I assume either you are ignoring me, have not seen the question, or don’t have an answer. I won’t presume to know what your reason is, but the question stands as valid.
Now, as to the issue on testing our faith, it is my take that we are always being tested. Always. However, how do find the answer to the tests? We rely on God and on His Word, the Bible, scripture. The Bible was God breathed, and therefore everything in it is reliable. Yes, it has been translated, but scholars are more than comfortable in believing what we have accurately reflects the original text. See this site: http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/1854957-some-comments-biblical-scholars-textual-reliability.html, quoting some hefty scholars on the matter.
Though not specifically related to text, this site shows the increasingly reliability of what is recorded in the Bible. http://www.bethinking.org/bible-jesus/advanced/archaeology-and-the-historical-reliability-of-the-new-testament.htm. This comes back to support the reliability of the text itself. (Archeology does not prove the deity of Christ, which has never been mine claim.) I am sure you can research more.
But here’s the point I am going for: the Bible is a reliable source to know God’s truth and instructions for us. Therefore, it is reasonable for us to go to it when we see something, hear something, or are led by something. Its also reasonable that God does not contradict himself. So, if something is contradicted by the Bible, ie, the Bible says something different than what we are told outside the Bible, are we to trust the Bible, which is reliable? Or are we to trust the other source?
I answer that quite strongly in favor of trusting the Bible. Its not rejecting God to believe the Bible over another source. In fact, to favor another source over the Bible is to reject God. This is true because the Bible is God’s word.
So, if polygamy was at best tolerated in certain situations, (you cannot point to any point in the Bible and say it was commanded by law) then Smith’s assertion that he was commanded at the point of a flaming sword under threat of death to engage in polygamy does not jive with God. I also don’t believe God would test Smith, and all LDS, with something as big a sin as adultery and allow them to go through with it. (Taking another man’s wife, and taking another woman while married is the very definition of adultery.) God does not test people in the manner and to the extent that you assert.
I could go on, but to summarize my point on testing: God does not test people in this way. He does not test them by allowing them to sin. He may put them in an uncomfortable position, rather he does put them in uncomfortable positions, but he does not allow them to sin. If Abraham and Smith were comparable, then Smith would have been stopped at the moment it was apparent he was going to follow through with his polygamous/adulterous acts.
It stretches credulity to assert that polygamy was just one big test for the reasons set forth above, not to mention that the LDS church still believes in a form of polygamy and has not outright rejected it. If it were a test, and the LDS had moved beyond the test, don’t you think the church would also have abandoned polygamy entirely when it passed the test? Or, is it still being tested now? When will it end?
FoF, think through these things. Speaking of testing, its OK and appropriate to test spirits and everything you learn. Why? There are many out there who seek to deceive and distort.
And remember that God’s love for you is real. He wants you to know the truth and is calling you toward Him.
Who in the world are you directing this comment to, Alex? I don’t think any of us here would qualify as a “religious leader”. Since when is criticizing self proclaimed “prophets” not following God? The so called “prophets” have to be REAL prophets. Mormon “prophets” have never proven themselves to be. In fact, they have proven they are not, by a variety of acts. We don’t have to “destroy” your so called prophets, they are doing a good job of that all by themselves.
Grindaels made this comment in an earlier post
“The way to approach this is with answers. But that is a funny thing, neither you, nor your so called “prophets”, have any.”
That comment reminded me of the resignation letter I mentioned earlier today. This is how the writer of the letter began his story.
“I met with the stake president last night. My bishop passed it (the letter) to him because he wasn’t sure how to approach it. So the stake president then took it to an area seventy to ask his advice. And here was his grand advice:”
“Don’t try to answer any of his questions. It will only cause more and more questions to be asked.”
I’m not sure what to think about this answer and I really didn’t take him to task on it. I discussed the dishonesty of the leadership of the church in depth and he basically had nothing to say about it.
Looks like you hit the nail on the head Grindael J
Kate
Thanks for that, I checked Gill out & the first thing that came to mind was ‘Joseph Smith Mk2’
The second thing that springs to mind & something that perhaps all LDS members should think about is 2 Corinthians 11:14
I recommend that all LDS reading this check out this new Joseph Smith, they might begin to see how easy it is to become a prophet, albeit a false one.
Anyway, here’s a link for anyone else who might interested
http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/02/20/interview-with-a-prophet/
FofF
I made this observation 2 days ago, it concerns one of the reasons I reject Joseph Smith as a Prophet. I’m wondering if there is anything in what I wrote that you disagree with & if so perhaps you would be good enough to tell me what it is
“your prophets simply don’t meet the criteria laid down in Scripture. A prophet is a man who receives information directly from God therefore anything they declare MUST come to pass. Out of the approximately 65 prophecies which were uttered by Smith during his time as a prophet about 5 were fulfilled & they were merely educated guesses which any reasonably intelligent person could have made.
I suggest you read Deuteronomy 18:20-22
FoF said
I want to point out to all the lurkers here, and FoF also, He has just exposed himself by his own words as the hypocrite he really is. He keeps claiming we ask questions of him and never reply to him, yet he claims he answers us. Well he has dodged my questions that were statements made about Polygamy being a principle given by God himself, and his so called prophet claimed if we dont believe in and follow polygamy this so called prophet PROMISED we would be damned. Yet FoF cannot and will not answer me on this.
Then FoF claims we dont follow and live out the commands of God, and he implys he and other Mormons do. Yet when I asked for a list of these commands of God he feels we must obey, he has yet to provide them, and explain why Jesus taught otherwise.
So the best part about this is, I know what questions a LDS apologist cannot answer, so these are the questions to ask the rank and file Mormons down at the local ward when I visit, and the LDS missionary’s when they come knocking on my door. Thanks FoF for showing all the lurkers your true colors.
RickB,
I have answered your questions in previous posts. I have no interest in spoon feeding you if you cannot find them or understand them.
Don’t know what else to say to you. I answered your questions. Go back and find them.
Thanks.