From a sermon by Charles Haddon Spurgeon, “Taking Hold of God,” delivered October 7, 1877:
In the present age, if any man can talk well, he will get a following whatever he may teach. I am astounded at some professors who can hear this man, today, and that man the next, though the two are diametrically opposed. Surely there is some difference between truth and error. Surely mere cleverness cannot neutralize false doctrine.
Our forefathers discerned between things that differed and when false doctrine came before them they cast it out, notwithstanding the eloquence of its advocate. I do not want you to be bigots. God deliver us from their bitter spirit, but I do want you to be sound Believers. There is a great difference between obstinate bigotry and a decided maintenance of that which we have believed. After all, what is the chaff to the wheat? There is a difference between the doctrines of men and the teachings of the Lord. No lie is of the truth. Garnish it as you may, it is still a lie. Oh to be rooted and grounded and built up in Christ! One of the most desirable things in this fickle age is to see around the minister of Christ a people who know the truth, and feel that the truth binds them fast to their God.
———
“His winnowing fork is in his hand,
and he will clear his threshing floor
and gather his wheat into the barn,
but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 3:12
Interesting,
I am sure that the Pharisees and Jewish religious leaders had similar thoughts and said similar disparaging comments concerning a particular itinerant preacher from Nazareth. I am also sure that these same respected religious leaders thought that they were doing God’s will when they caused to have this blaspheming upstart crucified by the Roman authorities.
Throughout the history of the Bible we can observe how many of the ordained prophets of God have been persecuted and even killed by the religious leaders of the day. Prophets of God are a direct threat to the power and authority of contemporary religious leaders who profess to follow God but teach the false traditions of men. Thus that is why such prophets are despised of men.
In today’s world, evangelicals profess to follow God but are all so very eager to destroy God’s ordained prophets.
Alex,
“In today’s world, evangelicals profess to follow God but are all so very eager to destroy God’s ordained prophets.”
Which ordained prophets would that be? Mormonism has produced so many prophets it’s hard to keep them all straight. Are we to ordain all Mormon prophets? There are nearly 100 different sects of Mormonism right now, all with a prophet, which one do we ordain??? How many different prophets has Mormonism produced in the last 180 years? are we to ordain them all? They point fingers at each other screaming “false prophet and apostate!” So please do tell us which ones we are to ordain.
You may want to think this through because the FLDS are the ones living the closest to Joseph Smith and his teachings. I would say the LDS are out on the furthest limb.
Alex, do you think Jesus was a snake oil salesman? Do you think he was devious and was “any man who can talk well”?
No, you think Jesus spoke the truth. So do I. What I don’t think is that Smith spoke the truth. I think he could speak well, and gathered a large following.
The comparison of us to the Pharisees is not really worthwhile. I might change my position if you can show credible evidence from the Bible showing an apostasy was to occur and that someone like Smith would show up to fix it. See, the Bible is replete with evidence showing a savior would come, and Jesus satisfied all of the evidence. The Pharisees knew a savior would be coming, but I am not aware of any latter day prophet to restore the truth.
I am, however, aware that many will teach false doctrine, and deceive many. As such, I am aware to be on the look out for such people and such doctrines.
“In the present age, if any man can talk well, he will get a following whatever he may teach.”
I think this has always been true. This is why we have such cultists and self proclaimed prophets as Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson, Heaven’s Gate, Ervil LaBaron (Mormon), Ron L. Hubbard, etc.. There are literally thousands of these self proclaimed prophets and cultist around the world. It’s not just in the U.S. Are we to just go with the flow and not test these people who claim to be speaking for God? Or who claim they are Jesus reincarnated? Do the LDS who post here test the claims of these people? If so, why are we being told we are Pharisees when we test their prophets right along with the others? Jesus told us to beware of false prophets. He even said that there would arise many false Christs. I reject all of the above so called prophets, including all involved with Mormonism.
“No lie is of the truth. Garnish it as you may, it is still a lie.”
I love this part. So lying for the Lord is still a lie, lying by omission is still a lie, half truths are still a lie, lying by omission and later calling it milk before meat is still a lie, and none of it is of God.
Alex,
Here is the problem plain and simple, You and all other LDS do not know what the Bible says and teaches. Summed up that is at the root of all your problems.
The Bible tells us to rebuke and correct those that are in error. The Bible also tells us, their are false prophets, false teachers, and false gospels. According to you, who are they?
Then the other problem you LDS have is, you want it both ways, You want us non LDS to follow and listen to your prophets and claim they are true prophets. But when we finally do listen to them, then you tell us we cannot and we are wrong.
I listen your your prophets, and teachers and do as your scriptures teach, and can you guess what your prophets, leaders and scriptures have said?
They said, If JS is wrong and is a false teacher, He needs to be exposed as one. They also say, If you guys are wrong and believing false teachings, we need to tell you so and show you, and they say, if we are your enemies, you meet you in public and talk about these things.
Now why is this so hard for you guys to understand? We/I am doing as the Bible and your prophets say, and you get mad, but then when I dont do what they say, and ignore them, you get mad. Sorry but you cannot have it both ways.
Kate writes: “There are nearly 100 different sects of Mormonism right now”
Well, not really. I have seen a composite list of 124 supposed “sects” of Mormonism. Most of those “sects” never consisted of more than a handful of dissidents and their immediate families. Of the 124 of these small groups over 103 became extinct before 1900. If you were to employ a standard of a minimum 10,000 members (pretty small for a sect) there are only 4 groups to which meet that criteria: the FLDS (fundamentalist groups) with about 30,000 to 50,000 members; the RLDS / Community of Christ (now split into two schizms with about 180,000 members each) and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Salt lake City based group) with over 15 million members. Yes, I am sure that there are a few Strangites, Bickertonites, and Temple Lot Mormons etc. still running around but their numbers are negligible.
Given the foregoing, it is readily evident which church is a truly global religion, is fulfilling the Lord’s mandate to preach the gospel to every kindred tongue and people, and bears the prophetic mantle, power and authority of Jesus Christ.
MJP writes: “Alex, do you think Jesus was a snake oil salesman?”
No, but many of the religious authorities of the time of Christ certainly did. They called Jesus a lying, deceitful, blasphemer who was leading the people astray by corrupting the scriptures with his many blasphemies. The Pharisees criticized Jesus for associating with drunkards, harlots and other undesirables. Saul was infamous for rounding up the deluded followers of this supposed false messiah and having them put to death.
Guess who was right and who was in error.
Alex, what’s funny about your response is that it completely ignores the second half of my post.
Good for you to point out that the Pharisees thought Christ a wild man. Indeed, its true. But what about the rest of my point? Where in the Bible do we have solid evidence that an apostasy was to occur and that someone like Smith would need to set things straight?
MJP
The comparison with the Pharisees works very well actually.
We both accept as true the teaching of a previous prophet, namely Christ, but disagree as to the modern prophet, Joseph Smith.
Both the Pharisees and Christians accepted as true the teaching of a previous prophet, namely Moses, but disagreed as to the modern prophet, Christ.
This is the pattern of apostasy seen throughout history. A great prophet is raised up to restore the truth. Some accept him, while other claim to follow the teachings of a previous prophet and deny the current one. Many prophets in the Old Testament were killed while the people Israel proclaimed that they followed Moses, and this was the same when they killed Christ. This is exactly what is happening now.
Now, as to proof of the apostasy, the Bible is full of it. However, the real problem is in your comparison. You said that the Bible is full of prophecies of Christ, and so we have the evidence. But the Pharisees did not accept the evidence. Rather they interpreted the scriptures in such a way as to allow them to deny who Christ really was. This brings us back to the comparison of evangelicals with the Pharisees. Just as the ancient apostles quoted the scriptures to prove that Christ was the promised Messiah, we could quote the scriptures to prove the apostasy. However, just as the Pharisees rejected the proof that was presented, so do most evangelicals reject all evidence of the apostasy.
Now, I have no desire to get into an argument over the apostasy. So, I give only one reference that I think shows the event beautifully.
“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.”
(Amos 8: 11-13)
A famine of the words of the Lord that will extend over the whole Earth. If that’s not an apostasy I don’t know what is.
Kate
The FLDS are not the closest to what Joseph Smith taught because they denied the very structure of the religion and God’s appointed servants. I know people like to make this claim because they still take multiple wives, but that proves only that the extent to which they have corrupted the truth that was revealed to Joseph Smith.
Alex said
“n today’s world, evangelicals profess to follow God but are all so very eager to destroy God’s ordained prophets.”
It’s well after midnight & I’m too tired to debate anything with you so I’ll just ask you a few straightforward questions; I would appreciate answers from you, honest straightforward answers with no Mormon doublespeak.
1) Give us the Scriptural definition of a Prophet
2) Having determined what a Prophet is using the definition above please give the names of any in your organization who fit that definition
3) If a Prophet leads your church, leaving aside the rather dubious ‘revelation’ concerning Black people, why is it that there have been no prophecies or revelations for more than 100 years?
4) Why, if a Prophet leads your church, have none of them been able to finish the translation of the Bible that Joseph Smith started?
I could go on but I think that’s enough for you to be going on with.
Shem
You say that scripture is full of proof of an apostasy yet in support of your argument you give just the one reference, you quote from Amos 8:11-13 which has nothing at all to do with Christian apostasy Why don’t you read the entire chapter starting with Amos 8:1-2
If you do you will see that God is declaring to Amos that the end has come for his covenant people He will not pass by them any more.
You then say this
“A famine of the words of the Lord that will extend over the whole Earth. If that’s not an apostasy I don’t know what is.”
In typical Mormon fashion you add your own words to those of Amos. Nowhere in chapter 8 does it mention a famine that extends over the whole earth. The famine to which Amos refers is to take place in Israel & the surrounding regions as is made clear in verse 14.
Summing up, Chapter 8 is nothing to do with Christian apostasy & all to do with God declaring that he will no longer listen to his covenant people. It’s all about the end of the road for Israel.
Yea, Mormon prophets. They should be destroyed! They are liars, cheats, scoundrels and enemies of God.
The only thing worse than these charletons are those who prop them up and support them. These professors of false prophets will answer to God for not only rejecting Him and His Christ, but those who have proclaimed the Gospel in truth. These are God’s true prophets.
These Mormon prophets are miserable and blind fools.
Do these defenders of the LDS false religious system even consider how many modern day “prophets” that there are in Mormonism? They all proclaim that they have the true restoration.
I would think that the first thing our Mormon posters should do is take a crack at figuring out what exactly the Mormon truth is. It’s about as elusive as a unicorn.
That Brigham Young was sure a dandy prophet. Even his prophetic utterances are rejected by the LDS leadership and those who follow the blindly.
Mormons have no leg to stand on when it comes to the topic of modern day prophets.
I think what Jude writes in his Epistle regarding false prophets is readily applicable to these Mormon hustlers.
He says: “….clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.”
I would be utterly shamed to try and defend these men that Mormons refer to prophets. They aren’t even very good false prophets.
The Bible doesn’t mince words when it comes to condemning false prophets. But these Mormons receive lies as if it were the truth and for that they are condemned also.
What proof do these Mormons offer up that the men who call and have called themselves prophets are indeed prophets? They have none.
Alex,
“If you were to employ a standard of a minimum 10,000 members (pretty small for a sect) there are only 4 groups to which meet that criteria: the FLDS (fundamentalist groups) with about 30,000 to 50,000 members; the RLDS / Community of Christ (now split into two schizms with about 180,000 members each) and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Salt lake City based group) with over 15 million members. Yes, I am sure that there are a few Strangites, Bickertonites, and Temple Lot Mormons etc. still running around but their numbers are negligible.”
I don’t care how many are following them, they all claim to be prophets of God. Mormonism has produced many prophets. LDS aren’t the only fruits of Mormonism. I know you sweep the others under the rug, but they are the product of Joseph Smith, same as you. So again, which one of these prophets are we to accept??? Do you accept the any others besides Thomas Monson? Why not?
Shem,
“The FLDS are not the closest to what Joseph Smith taught because they denied the very structure of the religion and God’s appointed servants.”
You mean the structure that Brigham Young set up after Joseph was killed, so he could name himself as prophet? They have the same prophet and 12 apostle system you follow. They not only follow the teachings and revelations of Joseph Smith but also Brigham Young, John Taylor and most of Wilford Woodruff. You know, the ones LDS throw under the bus as just speaking opinion or folklore? They share the same founding prophets as you. They still practice polygamy because John Taylor told their leaders to keep it alive. You can claim your church is the “authority” all you want. They claim the same thing. Like I said, you all yell false prophet and apostate at each other. The fact is you are all following false prophets and you are all apostate from true Christianity.
Joseph Smith gave his son a patriarchal blessing and in it he told him he would be the next prophet. Mark Hoffman was in the process of selling this blessing to not only the LDS church but also the RLDS church. The leaders of the LDS church wanted to bury it, and the leaders of the RLDS wanted to shout it to the world showing they are the true Mormons.
Alex & Shematwater – I have to wonder with all your talk of prophets and rejected prophets what is your standard by which you judge prophets. I am assuming since you are LDS you reject Mohammed? By what standard? Do not Muslims make very similar statements about Mohammed’s prophetic authority? Do they not state that they accept the prophetic office of Jesus, but that they have more? Then why do you negligently reject Mohammed as a prophet?? Do you reject the prophetic office of Mary Baker Eddy? How and why? Aren’t you just like the Pharisees rejecting Mohammed and Mary Baker Eddy? Are we truly not to judge any prophet by any standard lest we reject God’s anointed prophet? I guess we better start gathering up prophetic utterances and listening to everybody without any standard of judgement. In conclusion I would say your arguments do not hold up – they are merely name calling silliness – you, You PHARISEE! BTW – I do not claim prophetic office – so there is no binding force to this post, other than the binding force of truth and reason. God sent His son to die on the cross for your sins for your forgiveness. Listen to Him, and quit chasing after strange teachings of prophets who contradict and undermine our Lord.
4/5
Excellent point!
It’s one I’ve noticed. Mormons, by their own words, would have to accept everyone and anyone who claimed to be a prophet. To not accept them would be to reject a prophet. It’s immaterial if the person is a total fraud. If they claim to be a prophet and hearing from God, then who are we to judge?
The standard in Mormonism is so pathetically low that anyone can be classified a prophet. It doesn’t take long to run down the deeds and misdeeds of those calling themselves prophets of God in the Mormon sphere to know they are totally looney tunes.
These Mormons can’t even claim any sort of consistency among these men who they claim are prophets. They’re all over the map and when it is truly nutty utterances it is swept aside as the prophets opinion. The lengths that Mormons go to try and have for themselves their very own prophets is laughable.
It’s a joke of a religion from beginning to end!
Can we be too hard on these false prophets?
Shouldn’t we be more diplomatic, understanding, touch-ie feel-ee, even kind to these claimed prophets?
After all they are sincere, devout, dedicated and committed to what they believe. Surely God can’t be upset with them, can He? After all just because they deny who He is and His clear plan of salvation, what’s the big deal?
OK so they do lead people away from Him and create a whole new form of god, in fact a scheme where by men can become gods themselves. Big Deal!
……and so what if one of them sees fit to rewrite the Bible, come up with additional “scripture” and on going “revelation” that claims that God’s plan is a work in progress and needs further up dates.
BTW, how does the LDS church treat men who claim to be prophets who believe they have the real deal revelation and restoration? A great book on the topic of emerging Mormon prophets is, “Under the Banner of Heaven”. It provides a good look at the legacy of Joseph Smith and the spin off prophets.
Let’s face it. If Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were around today they’d get kicked out of the LDS church. They’d be considered false prophets if they dared to teach now what they taught then. Ah, the wonder of progress!
Falcon, I have had people both say to me and imply that I am to hard or mean to both tbm and their false prophets. When I point out scripture of how hard Jesus and the apostles were to these false leaders leading people to eternal death, I get the verse from peter throw in my face. So I agree with you, but many believers will not agree with you.
Whats more important, making false prophets feel good or telling the truth of who and what they are?
……and how do we know a prophet is a false prophet. The Bible gives a pretty clear indication of what one of these guys or gals looks like. First of all if they give a run at fore-telling the future and what they predict doesn’t happen BEEP! FALSE PROPHET ALERT!!
We could give a pretty extensive list of this taking place with Mormon prophets.
We could examine the “story” the prophet tells and see if it passes the smell test. In the case of Joseph Smith, it’s a no brainer. The guy’s story is so outlandish it’s embarrassing and that’s just on the surface. Once you begin to analyze it………well let’s just say kindly that, “it doesn’t hold up to close scrutiny”. In order for Mormons to make it work in their head they just have to accept it without question or come up with the most outlandish explanations to keep the con moving.
Finally, and I think this probably works the best with Mormons, tell them that you prayed about it and it was revealed that Smith and his religion are false. Mormons really like revelation and any thing that appears hyper-spiritual. If some emotions can be mixed in, it’s a clincher.
Falcon, you’re correct in saying that a prophet’s role is to predict future events , but
mostly a prophet is a teacher , and this is how Mormonism describes it’s prophet(s)
in church publications . So we can all do the wise thing and test their prophets
teachings —1 Jn 4:1 . It’s dangerous to not follow that counsel .
Mike,
I don’t know how we Christian posters on this blog break-out on the topic of “prophets” but I’m one who believes that there are prophets in the Body of Christ today. I don’t believe, as some dispensationalist do, that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased to function when the Canon of Scripture was completed.
Most of my experience with those who I would judge as having the Gift of Prophesy and who function in the role of a prophet, is as you say, mainly in the mode of exhorting or perhaps bringing a “word” to a group or to an individual. I must also state that I’m very cautious about this and tend to be skeptical because it can so easily be faked or people can just be speaking out of their own imaginations. A clever person can also be manipulative in the flesh.
As is continually pointed out here, those who are manifesting one of the Gifts of the Spirit are subject to the Body in that the Body of believers has to judge the fruit of what someone brings forth.
Joseph Smith has a student of the Methodist revivals. There were all manner of manifestations and emotions being exhibited during the camp meetings of the various Enlightenment periods. I think a lot of what was reported could be chalked up to group hysteria or the psychological phenomenon known as conversion disorder.
OK here’s a five minute video and we can use it as an exercise regarding spiritual manifestations. Mormons should like this. I’m not promoting what’s in the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdD2RfcJXp0
It relates directly to the idea of discerning truth. It also deals with prophecy.
I just spent way more time on You Tube than I should watching videos dealing with prophets and prophecy. It’s quite a market place out there for this sort of information.
What Mormons don’t quite get is that there are manifest unlimited numbers of people claiming to be prophets and who have the next shinning object in the spiritual realm. Mormons have jumped on board the wagon of Joseph Smith and those who followed him and see them as that bright shinning star that has had revealed the secret truth.
Why do Mormons do that? It’s simple. It makes them feel good. They got hooked on the narrative, it fuels their emotions and now they must run about trying to find some evidence to support what they desire to believe.
Here’s the problem with cultists as I have pointed out numerous times.
The more convoluted or bizarre a notion, the more they embrace it.
There’s a reason why there is such a market for prophets and prophecy. People like it! It trips their trigger. Quite often it speaks to their soul but not their spirit and there in lies the problem.
If someone isn’t grounded in the Word of God they’ll grab hold of any swell sounding idea, especially if it engages their emotions. The Bible tells us about the coming of the Anti-Christ and how, if possible, even the elect could be fooled. Even false prophets can, at times, say something that appears true or comes to pass. False prophets can even produce false signs and wonders to WOW their followers.
But here’s the sign of a false prophet. A false prophet leads people to a false god. This is the case of Mormonism. Anyone who reads the Bible with a clear mind and spirit knows who God is. It is evident as Paul writes in the Book of Romans.
Ask any former Mormon who writes here what the main difference is in their life is now that they have become born again and they will tell you that the Bible now makes sense to them.
That’s the power of the Holy Spirit who now resides within them.
I could add a few more. Why don’t their “prophets” “translate” anything? Where are all the “records” that Jo “prophesied” would come forth after the BOM & BOA? How come Mormon “prophets” are no different from every other religious leader who preaches in America in their claim to be influence by the Holy Spirit? Mormons love to talk about Jesus and the Pharisees, but Jesus had power. We see none of this from Mormon “prophets”. In fact, they are more like the Pharisees, in that they live in luxury while others suffer and live like paupers; while they (Mormon “prophets”) sit in their lofty towers and pontificate about regulations and say how bad it is that people don’t live them. Christ was out among the poor every day. Where are the Mormon “prophets?” Creating a spectacle every six months with rote prayers and testimonies.
The silence from the Mormons about these things is typical.
Hey all,
Do me a favor and watch this Youtube video of a guy on Ed Sullivan doing his plate spinning routine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhoos1oY404
As I read the comments made by shemwater, Alex, and faithoffathers, I am reminded how I finally came to see myself. For years I was just like a plate spinner as I tried to keep the Mormon faith claims aloft in my mind and in my heart. Just like this plate spinner, the set up was intricate and, like him, I had to keep one eye over my shoulder to make sure the plates were still spinning. Eventually, in exhaustion I had to let the plates crash to the floor. And guess what. Jesus was right there, assuring me of His presence and helping me build confidence in the faith claims of the Bible so that, they too, wouldn’t come crashing down. These guys are plate spinners, expending unnecessary energy trying to keep a faith system aloft in the face of the inexorable force of gravity (truth). Are your arms tired yet, fellows?
Tom, great analogy . While I don’t think the Mormons you mentioned will admit on a
public venue like this blog that their arms are tired , still it’s the Holy Spirit’s role to
convict them . All we do is keep presenting the evidence against their prophets/apostles
claims so everyone will be to informed .
Charles Spurgeon in the piece Sharon cites above rightly notes how false teachers
can sound very articulate in presenting their teachings , and I might add that many
of these men would appear to be nice and curtious individuals because not all false
prophets are immoral or conniving individuals , some are polite , well dressed and
stress living moral lives etc . I believe that many Mormons don’t grasp this point.
When we say that Mormon leadership are false prophets /apostles , many Mormons
ignore that because to them a false prophet is more like a Brian David Mitchell , and
thus they are lulled into being diverted from taking the time to earnestly examine the
teachings of those in leadership and comparing that with the scriptures .
Thankfully there are Mormons who recognize how important this is in these latter days
and are discovering the truth that the men who they have been rendering allegiance to
are not what they have claimed after all .
Tom,
The plate spinning; I remember that routine well. I don’t think that guy ever dropped a plate. Not so with Mormons, they’re dropping plates all over the place but the difference is they don’t know it. That’s where all of the excuses, alibis and fantastic explanations come from.
My favorite song from the Broadway musical BoM is “I believe” ………because I am a Mormon and a Mormon just believes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlbDHejQFV4
You could do a complete analysis of the lyrics and see that the writers really nailed it. They mixed in just enough Christian sounding terms and then, as Mormonism does, take off on a really weird flight of fancy.
Actually all a Mormon would have to do is compare and contrast their doctrine of the nature of God with that of normative Christianity and see which one flows from the Biblical text and (as a result) they should bolt from Mormonism in a hurry.
I don’t know what it is about Joseph Smith’s story that seduces these folks. It’s a total farce.
They read the BoM, it makes them feel good and bingo, they buy the whole enchilada. This is what happens when people are driven by emotions which they suppose are “spiritual” revelations. There are all sorts of things religious and non-religious that can make people feel good but that doesn’t make them true, trust worthy or beneficial.
I sit here at my computer most days shaking my head wondering how Mormons can be taken in by this (Mormon) fraud.
Falcon, you ask how people can be fooled by Mormonism ? The better the counterfeit
the more successful it can be . Sincere decent people can be fooled by an imitation
gospel presented by men who make the same claims as Jesus’ true apostles . There
are Mormons who have admitted that they welcome the fact that Christian missionaries
precede them into a certain area ( mostly foreign countries ) . This makes the job of
Mormon missionaries easier to “sell ” their gospel .
Concerning the topic of this thread , namely , being aware of those who teach false
doctrine, this is so important today given the advent of so many men who claim to
be appointed by God to introduce new truths from Him . We are wise to be especially
leery of those men who come claiming to be the modern day version of the men
through whom Jesus established His church and sent out to teach the truth about Him
and His message on how to receive salvation ( Rom 1:16) . Imitation apostles are
not a new problem ( Rev 2:2) and their modern day colleagues can be be detected
also —-Gal 1:8 ; 2 Tim 4:3-4
alcon says:
August 8, 2013 at 7:17 pm
Yea, Mormon prophets. They should be destroyed! They are liars, cheats, scoundrels and enemies of God.
Wow. What a horrible thing to say. Since you said it, the same could be said of many, many Evangelical Preachers. The list is quite long.
Good job answering questions silkworm.
Now if you read your bible, you will see that all these false prophets and liars, even the ones that claim to be Christian and are not will also be destroyed.
Silkworm,
Seeing as how you feel it is a horrible thing to say, destroy the false prophets, let me ask you a few things?
God in the bible says, these people will be destroyed, so do you feel God is wrong for saying that? If so, why?
And what do you sugest should happen to false prophets and teachers? Do we just allow them to lie, cheat and lead people to eternal death?
Silkworm/rick,
Well I’ve been waiting for a couple of days for some Mormon to react to my “destroy” comment.
Why do you think I displayed such righteous anger and vehemence?
I don’t have much time for “Evangelical” preachers who misuse their position and commit gross sins. I wouldn’t even attempt to justify it or find some sort of alibi for their behavior. I would see it for what it is; no shading reality.
That’s not what Mormons do with their prophets. First of all Mormons have labeled certain ones “prophets”. And here’s their blasphemy. They deny god, create a new god and declare that they will also become gods and progress in their deity status through out eternity.
I don’t know any Evangelical preacher who is involved in gross sin who creates for themselves a god other than the one who is revealed in the Bible. None the less their sin carries with it the root of their own destruction. There’s that word again.
Mormons get right up in the face of God and declare Him not to be God. What sort of destruction do you think awaits someone who rejects God and His Christ? Might destruction be the result of such an action; eternal destruction. Is that too much hell fire and brimstone for a Mormon to hear?
The Mormon god cannot save a Mormon from their eventual fate of rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Bible tells us that many will come in “that day”, stand before Jesus and beg telling all the things they did in His name. Jesus says depart from Me because I never knew you.
That’s a strong message but this is serious business. What is eternal destruction? What fate lies ahead for these Mormon prophets that not only turned away from God but lead others to do the same.
I don’t think pointing this out is mean, harsh or nasty. It’s a wake-up call!
I don’t get any sort of perverse pleasure by pointing these things out to Mormons concerning the fate of their prophets and their own eternal fate if they follow them into their eventual destruction.
It’s actually my least favorite way to approach people regarding the salvation of their souls.
But we’re talking about truth telling here which naturally leads to the topic of false prophets who bring a false gospel expressing a false hope.
In reality, Mormons are hoping to cash a big lotto check some day and the account they hope to draw on is empty. All of the works they have done including their temple rituals are dirty rags, the Bible tells us. Mormons attempt to “earn” their reward is a lot of effort with no pay off in the end.
The Bible clearly tells us that we don’t deserve nor can we earn eternal life. Any “reward” that we might earn appears as a jewel in a crown which eventually we will throw at the feet of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He gets the glory.
Only God has the account on which a sinner can hope to draw-on to cash a check with the eternal reward.
That’s the truth!
Falcon
Actually all an Evangelical would have to do is compare and contrast their doctrine of the nature of God with that of the true gospel as taught in the LDS church and see which one flows from the Biblical text and (as a result) they should bolt for Mormonism in a hurry.
Just so you know, I have made that very comparison, and it is has always been a very strong reason why I have always remained LDS, because our doctrine is the only one that satisfies all the scriptures.
Old Man
I have read Amos 8, more than once. I know what it is talking about. Notice in verse 9 it states “And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the cearth in the clear day” This speaks of the Christ’s death. On the day of his crucifixion the sun was darkened at the sixth hour, being the sixth hour from dawn, or noon. Thus we see that this prophecy of Amos was to be fulfilled starting at the death of Christ and extending forward to an unspecified time.
Now, this could not be confined to Israel because at this time the land of Israel is where the gospel was preached in greatest force, and thus it must extend beyond that, which is indicated when it says from sea to sea and from the North to the East, in verse 12. This is an idiom used by Amos to illustrate the completeness of this famine of words. He uses this because it encompasses all the known world of the time, and to speak of places unknown would have done no good.
The same thing is true of verse 14. He is using Dan and Beer-Sheba to illustrate the downfall of all idol worship, but speaks only directly to those areas that were well known to the people he was addressing.
To some Amos up, God would, at some point, darken the sky at noon day, and this would signal the ushering in of time that is spoken of as a time of famine of words.
Shem,
The thing I find sad is this, The amount of questions from us to LDS that cannot be answered and are ignored. That speaks volumes to me, But we both know how you will reply. You will say not one question we ask bothers you, and you have replied and answered everyone at some point before, and your simply not willing to reply to us again since you already have and we will not care anyway. Is that correct?
shem,
I’d love to see your comparison. My experience with Mormons is that they know little or nothing about the Bible, Christian Church History, and the proper method of Biblical interpretation.
I’ve yet had you provide me with any evidence that what your Mormon sect teaches and practices is what the primitive Christian church believed and practiced.
There is no Mormonism in the Bible, in the writings of the Church Fathers, or even the writings of the early heretics. It doesn’t show-up until the 19th century and then it develops over time and changes radically from the religion originally established by Joseph Smith.
To say you have made this comparison and come to the conclusion that the Bible supports the notion of millions and billions of gods through out the universe, men becoming gods, and man-gods and woman-goddesses procreating spirit children who will obtain mortal bodies to populate the worlds these man-gods rule is stupidity, plain and simple.
You demonstrate your total ignorance every time you post something like you have above.
There are over a hundred different sects of Mormonism all claiming the true restoration. I suggest you take a look at the doctrine of God postulated by say the Community of Christ, Temple Lot and then trip on over to the other side with the FLDS and tell me why there is such a wide variety of views by all those claiming to be Mormons on such a fundamental issue of who God is.
To say you know the doctrine of the nature of God as preached by the apostles and handed down through God’s church over a 2,000 year history and then come up with Mormonism, is absurd.
BTW, I continue to pray for you that God will break the shackles that are encumbering you and that you will come to a saving knowledge of the grace of Jesus Christ. I saw it happening so I know it’s just a matter of time. You can’t resist the Holy Spirit Shem. He’ll have his way with you one way or another. I will remember you again today in prayer during my devotion time and again tomorrow during church services. God has brought you, Alex, FOF and Ralph to my remembrance and I take this ministry to you very seriously.
Even now I see rain pouring down on you in a heavy torrent. I don’t know what it means. Perhaps the Lord will give me understanding regarding this.
Shem said, Actually all an Evangelical would have to do is compare and contrast their doctrine of the nature of God with that of the true gospel as taught in the LDS church and see which one flows from the Biblical text and (as a result) they should bolt for Mormonism in a hurry. Just so you know, I have made that very comparison, and it is has always been a very strong reason why I have always remained LDS, because our doctrine is the only one that satisfies all the scriptures.
Shem, if you’re ever serious about openly examining the scriptures together and their teaching about the nature of God, know that I would be extremely happy to discuss that with you. I disagree strongly with your conclusion: LDS doctrine is highly inconsistent with a large portion of the Bible, whereas the same cannot be said about traditional Christian teaching about the nature of God.
shem,
Since you say that you’ve done this side-by-side comparison of the Mormon gods with God and have concluded that the Mormon gods are superior to God, I’d like to see your work.
Please list the characteristics and features of the Mormon gods and do the same for God. Then list the Biblical support you have for each.
Now what I’ve found is that there is no Biblical support for the Mormon gods. So what I must conclude is that you’re getting your “truth” about the Mormon gods from the Mormon prophets. As I’ve said many times, we can’t find any Biblical support for the Mormon gods, we can’t find any support for the Mormon gods in the writings of the Church Fathers or the early heretics. We can’t find any references for the Mormon gods in Church History or in the traditions of the Christian Church going back 2,000 years. We cannot find any support for the notion of the Mormon gods among the various sects of Jews either in ancient history or in those practicing that religion today.
However I’m always open to new information so since you report having done this comparison, you must have some information available to share with the readers here.
I’d be more than happy to provide you with the same but I think it’s only fair that you go first since you’ve made the claim.
I’ll wait!
Shem
You’re wrong, the book of Amos concerns God punishing Israel for their unbelief & unfaithfulness, it has nothing to do with Christian apostasy. The book was written nearly 800 years before Christ & its purpose was to remind the people of Israel that they have turned from the covenant that was made with God. Amos is giving them a message concerning their punishment. While it’s true that Amos 8:9 & ONLY verse 9 could be referring to the crucifixion it actually has nothing at all to do with it as I’ll explain in a moment. Doesn’t it strike you as odd that Amos would prophecy against Israel from chapter 4 for more than 3 chapters & then suddenly, in a single verse prophesy about Christian apostasy & then, immediately after that verse revert back to prophecy concerning Israel?
Chapters 1 through 3 are talking about punishment for the nations surrounding Israel Chapters 4 through 9 are entirely about Israel. The time of the prophets was coming to an end & this is what Amos is talking about in Chapter 8
Read Amos 8:7 who is God talking about when he says ‘pride of Jacob’ He’s talking about Israel.
Read Amos 8:8-9 where God talks about an earthquake as well as darkness, the 2 events are not separate they are concurrent. Notice what it says “AT THAT TIME I will make the sun go down at noon” now refer back to Amos 1:1 which tells us that the earthquake occurred 2 YEARS after Amos gave his prophecy so how could Amos 8:9 be talking about the crucifixion?
Read Amos 8:12 this is another way of saying that the time of the prophets was coming to an end. People would look for the ‘message from the Lord’ that had always come from a prophet. The seas mentioned here are the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea. People would travel a long way but they would not find the word of God. This is another indication that the time of the prophets was coming to an end. There is no justification for interpreting that verse as meaning the entire world. There are plenty of other verses in the O/T, e.g. Psalm 97:1 Isaiah 11:10-11 which can be interpreted as meaning the entire world, but not that verse in Amos.
No my friend, much as you would like to cherry pick verses to support your doctrine of apostasy you wont find any support for it in Amos. It really doesn’t matter how many times you have read Amos; the important thing is being able to understand what he is saying.
The book of Amos concerns Gods dealings with & judgement against Israel. If you can bring yourself to read it once more & at the same time pray for understanding you may come to see that.
Shem, As I pointed out before, and I know you dont agree, Satan was created by God. That is a problem for Jesus and Satan being brothers. Also Jesus was not an angel, Hebrews Teaches God saying, when have I ever said to an angel, Today you are my Son? Never happened. Then God says many times over, He knows of No Other gods, None were before Him, and None will be after Him.
Those verses show, God does not have other gods above Him and Jesus cannot be a god among gods, since God the Father knows of no other gods. I know you have said, what it really means is, we have no other gods than God the Father we worship.
I think this puts it all very well when it comes to the nature of God.
“For centuries Christians have professed their belief in a God who is God alone (Is. 44:8), self-existent (Is. 43:10; 48:12), transcendent (Num. 23:19; Ps. 50:21), immutable (Ps. 102:27; Is. 46:10; Mal. 3:6), eternal (Ps. 90:2; 93:2), omnipresent (1 Kings 8:27; Prov. 15:3; Is. 66:1; Jer. 23: 23, 24), and incorporeal (John 4:24; Col. 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:17). He is also a God who dwells in the believer (Eph. 3:17; 4:6; Rom. 8:9) and is omnipotent (Job 42:2; Ps. 115:3; Matt. 19:26). Mormons insist that their God, the one they call Elohim, is the Christian God. Why then are his attributes so different from the God who is declared in the Bible?”
This is what the Bible says about God and yet the Mormon gods have none of these attributes. In fact:
The god of Mormonism is one of many gods.
The god of Mormonism is not self-existent.
The god of Mormonism is not transcendent.
(While the God of the Bible makes it clear that He is not like man, Mormon leaders have insisted that their God is an exalted human being.)
The god of Mormonism is not immutable.
(Whereas God’s perfection makes it never necessary for Him to change, the God of Mormonism changes both in his physical person and moral attributes.)
The god of Mormonism is not eternally God.
The god of Mormonism is not incorporeal.
(Unlike the God of the Bible who is a God of Spirit (John 4:24), Joseph Smith taught, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).)
The god of Mormonism is not omnipresent.
(Because the LDS God is limited to a physical body, he is not omnipresent.)
The god of Mormonism cannot dwell in the believer.
The god of Mormonism is not omnipotent.
The god of Mormonism does not forgive completely.
(As Mormons believe they will always be subservient to their God, so too it would make sense that their God is subservient to his God as well.)
“There is probably no greater sin than to place your trust in a God whose attributes do not match those of the God of the Bible. The biblical term for such a sin is idolatry. The fact that Joseph Smith failed to represent the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob proves that he was not a true prophet. God warned the children of Israel that if any arose and attempted to entice Israel to “go after other gods” he was to be put to death (Deuteronomy 13:1-3, 5). Do you think He takes this any less serious today? To insist on following the God of the Mormon Church will result in spiritual death, a painful separation from the Creator for all eternity. The stakes are too high to trust in any other. Our prayer for all Latter-day Saints is that they see how they have been deceived by Joseph Smith and the “prophets and apostles” who followed him and ultimately place their trust in the God who has been changing lives for centuries, the God of the Bible.”
I don’t know Mormons, which way do you want to go on this? The Bible clearly tells us who God is. Mormonism goes a totally different direction. In fact these Mormon gods are just men who supposedly by going through the Mormon system from eons past, made themselves into gods. There is nothing in the Bible or the traditions of the Christian Church that describes the Mormon gods.
Knowing the Lord God personally is the path to eternal life. False prophets promote false gods and a false hope. Eternity is way too long to get this wrong.
http://www.mrm.org/god-of-mormonism
Old Man
Did I ever say that Amos was not talking about Israel. Israel has been scattered and you will find it hard to find a person who does not have some Israelite blood in them. The problem with your interpretation is that you are confining Israel to a specific time and place, and that is not the case.
And just so you know, there was also an Earthquake at the crucifixion of Christ, so even verse 8 is referring to that event. I agree that they are concurrent, which means that unless you can prove that at the time of the Earthquake you mention the sun was also darkened at noon than your interpretation does not fit the text. The only time that it is recorded that the sun was darkened at noon and an earthquake occurred is at the Crucifixion.
As to verse 12, it does not say they are looking for the prophets or a message that would normally come from them. It says they are looking for the word of God, which includes all sources of his word, including the scriptures, or at least a right understanding of them.
Finally, I do not think that a single verse is speaking of the Christian era, but several chapters. From chapter 7 to chapter 9 Amos is no longer prophesying the near future, but the far future and the difficulties that would come upon the house of Israel as a result. In chapter seven he prophesies the captivity of Israel and the resulting Lost Ten Tribes. Chapter 8 is an extension of that, and continues the prophesy into the even farther future, and chapter nine speaks of the last days when Israel is finally gathered again. So we have 7 is the first scattering, 8 is the Christian era and Great Apostasy, and 9 is the last days and restoration of the House of Israel.
However, I think you have proven my point. What is the purpose of us showing the evidence when you will find any way you can to reject it?
Rick
The thing I find sad is this: the number of questions that you ask over and over, despite the fact that they were answered. Of course the real problem is that you don’t want to accept any answer and so you will tell us that our answers aren’t really answers and thus duck away from any actual discussion.
Actually, you prove this point very well in your last post when you say “I know you say” such and such, but then try to say that our saying this isn’t actually answering the question.
Let us try something new. Ask a question, let me answer it, and then, whether or not you agree with what I say, accept that the question was in fact answered. Until you are willing to do this why should I be willing to answer any question.
Falcon
If I thought such a side by side comparison would do any good I would gladly give it. But you have proven countless times that you not only don’t know what we believe, but refuse to accept the truth regarding our doctrine. Until you are willing to let us declare our doctrine and not try to twist it to suite your agenda such a comparison is useless.
Let me point out a few things from your last point to illustrate. You give a list of our doctrine concerning the nature of God. Among them are these, all of which are false statements
1. The god of Mormonism is not self-existent.
2. The god of Mormonism is not transcendent.
3. The god of Mormonism is not immutable. (Whereas God’s perfection makes it never necessary for Him to change, the God of Mormonism changes both in his physical person and moral attributes.)
4. The god of Mormonism is not omnipresent. (Because the LDS God is limited to a physical body, he is not omnipresent.)
5. The god of Mormonism cannot dwell in the believer.
6. The god of Mormonism is not omnipotent.
7. The god of Mormonism does not forgive completely.
Let us consider them one at a time.
God is self-existent.
God is transcendent, for he transcends mortality, and is far superior to mortal man. This what transcendent means. It does not require that we be unable to attain to such a state ourselves, only that he be superior to our current state.
God does not change, either physically or morally, and only the ignorant would say otherwise.
God is omnipresent, for his power and influence fills all existence. Just as the light of the sun brightens all corners of the earth and yet the sun remains in one place, so too does the light of God fill all creation and yet God remains in one place.
If you are speaking of the father this is true, but the Holy Ghost can dwell in us, and he is also God. Thus your statement is not accurate.
God is omnipotent, and we have never once said otherwise. This simply means that he has all power that it is possible for a being to have and we accept that there are some powers that are impossible to have.
God forgives completely on many occasions and to say otherwise is again only showing ignorance. If he didn’t that no one would ever be exalted.
You listed ten total, and seven of them are wrong. Until you can get this right than any comparison you may have done is already proven faulty.
Johnsepistle
I would love to discuss it with you in a better atmosphere. If you would like to e-mail at [email protected] I would enjoy doing the comparisons we are speaking of. I will say that I do not want to argue the point, but would enjoy going through various verses and simply sharing my understanding of them and learning your understanding.
Q. “Give us the Scriptural definition of a Prophet”
A. When you say scriptural do you mean using only the Bible, or any text that we consider scripture. The Bible itself doesn’t actually give a direct definition of what a prophet is, so doing so is difficult. I do offer this from our Bible Dictionary however.
Prophet
The work of a Hebrew prophet was to act as God’s messenger and make known God’s will…He taught men about God’s character, showing the full meaning of His dealings with Israel in the past. It was therefore part of the prophetic office to preserve and edit the records of the nation’s history…It was also the prophet’s duty to denounce sin and foretell its punishment and to redress, so far as he could, both public and private wrongs. He was to be, above all, a preacher of righteousness. When the people had fallen away from a true faith in Jehovah, the prophets had to try to restore that faith and remove false views about the character of God and the nature of the divine requirement. In certain cases prophets predicted future events…but as a rule a prophet was a forthteller rather than a foreteller. In a general sense a prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost, as in Num. 11:25–29; Rev. 19:10. (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/prophet?lang=eng&letter=p)
Q. Having determined what a Prophet is using the definition above please give the names of any in your organization who fit that definition
A. It would take a while to list all of them, so I will simply point out that the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and all the Quorums of the Seventy are sustained as prophets. That would be over 400 total currently alive and hundreds more who held those offices in the past.
Q. If a Prophet leads your church, leaving aside the rather dubious ‘revelation’ concerning Black people, why is it that there have been no prophecies or revelations for more than 100 years?
A. There have been many revelations in the past hundred years; Family Home Evening, the church Welfare system, the Perpetual Education Fund, the reducing the age for missionary service as well as lengthening the time. All of these are revelations. As to prophecies, if I searched it out I am sure I could find a few, but that is only a very small part of the function of a prophet. They are much more involved in the operation of the church.
Q. Why, if a Prophet leads your church, have none of them been able to finish the translation of the Bible that Joseph Smith started?
A. Ability is not the issue regarding this question. It is authority and permission that is the issue. I have no doubt President Monson could do this if God commanded him to. But until he receives that command there is no need for it. The translation was finished by Joseph Smith, and the purpose for it has been fulfilled. According to law it is owned by the Community of Christ and so we print what we can with their permission and that is sufficient to our needs. When a greater need arises we will be given it all in full, along with every other sacred record ever written throughout the Earth’s history.
Kate
Not all the splinter groups from the LDS believe in prophets. Example: The Church of Christ (Temple Lot) has apostles, but denies the calling of prophets.
Of those that do many deny basic doctrine taught by Joseph Smith, or even deny Joseph Smith himself as a prophet. Any of the splinter groups that deny the need for a prophet or the doctrine revealed through Joseph Smith have thus proven themselves false.
As to the FLDS they denied the basic structure of the church when they turned against the Lord’s anointed servants. They did not accept the process set forth by Joseph Smith, nor did they accept the direct revelations that God would never have more than one person called to lead his church at a time, and that if that person was removed they would be the ones to appoint the new leader. (D&C 43: 3-4) These are the things they deny, and other things they corrupt, and have thus proven that they do not follow the teaching of Joseph Smith.
Shem,
I told you how you would reply to me and I was pretty spot on, I guess I can be a Mormon prophet.
I also admit their is a difference between you guys answering me, and me not agreeing with it, and you simply not answering the question. And honestly more times than you admit, you LDS in general cannot and will not answer my questions.
Now here is a example. I know the questions were not asked of you, but I asked FoF a few questions, he never answered them, then claimed he did, I ignored them, and if I simply go back and re-read the topics I would see them. Sadly I read every topic and every reply, and were talking just the last two-three topics. I said he can go back, copy and paste his reply to me with a time stamp and prove he really did reply to me. Now he did not do that because he never replied to me, He lied. Then I believe it was both Kate and Old Man that came on right after me saying that, and they said, he ignored or avoided them also.
Now I know you cannot answer for FoF and I’m not asking you to, I’m just saying you guys avoid questions more than you guys care to admit, and I am not the only one saying this. Since I also know you guys like to reply to this issue by saying, their are many of us asking questions and only one LDS being asked questions, you cannot reply to everyone of them. I get that also.
But the problem with that issue also is, I asked FoF very specif questions about things he said, Then a few days passed, he never replied to me, then a new topic was posted and he replied to that. So I said, How can you avoid my questions, claim their are to many people to reply to, go a few days with out replying, then reply to a new topic. Instead of replying to that new topic, you could have replied to me, Kate, or Old man. Say what you want Shem, but it really is a trend among LDS, Avoid questions, claim they answered them and we simply did not like the answers to that means we see it as, you never answered us. That simply is not true.
Shem,
First off, you might answer all my questions as you claim, But other LDS do not.
with that said, you said
So here we go, Christians claim LDS teach works, LDS deny works, but then claim, we must live by and follow all of Gods Commands. So tell me or give me a list of Gods Commands that LDS feel we must follow or live by and do, and if any of these are not found in the Bible, but are from other sources, please state where they are from. Then tell me, do you live by all the ones you listed for me?
Hmmm. Keeping lists Silk? Don’t you have anything better to do? As for all this talk about destroying, it’s kind of a funny thing, but most people wind up destroying themselves. There is enough of that going on without anyone else wishing or hoping for it.
That is what is done here all the time, Shem. Where in the Bible does it say that God was once a man? Please enlighten us.
Shem,
It’s pretty obvious why you’re a Mormon. You don’t deal with reality.
“You listed ten total, and seven of them are wrong. Until you can get this right than any comparison you may have done is already proven faulty.”
You my friend don’t even know what Mormonism teaches. You’re real typical of Mormons who come here and make all sorts of declarations and as it turns out it’s simply what they want to believe not what Mormonism teaches. You are totally ignorant of the faith you embrace.
Let’s provide some quotes from Mormon sources.
The god of Mormonism is not self-existent.
Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt taught, “We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so one, from one generation to generation” (The Seer, pg. 132).
The god of Mormonism is not transcendent.
While the God of the Bible makes it clear that He is not like man, Mormon leaders have insisted that their God is an exalted human being.
Joseph Smith declared, “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345).
Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe stated, “God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement” (Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 107).
This concurs with Mormon Apostle Parley P. Pratt’s comment which states, “God, angels, and men are all of the same species, one race, one great family…” (Key to the Science of Theology, 1978 ed., pg. 21).
The god of Mormonism is not eternally God.
Joseph Smith taught that God was not always God when he stated, “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see” (Teachings, pg. 345).
So Shem, that’s just a few. I guess you’ve become your own prophet and are now practicing your own form of Mormonism. Thankfully we have a large number of former Mormons who post here and can substantiate, as they often do, that you are speaking out of your hat.
Unbelievable, you come here and deny classic Mormonism while all the time insisting that you have the truth of Mormonism.
That’s Mormon thinking.
Shem,
I didn’t even bring up Brigham Young, a Mormon prophet, who taught what has become known as the Adam-god doctrine. This was believed by Mormons and is still accepted as “truth” by the FLDS.
I can see why you’re confused and why you’ve taken to developing your own form of Mormonism. Consider that the Mormon prophet Young taught that Adam was really the Mormon god of this world and that he had actual physical sex with the Virgin Mary.
Now with guys like that as prophets, I can see why you’ve decided to ignore the teachings of your prophets and develop your own form of Mormonism.
You have no credibility here. You’re just engaging in flights of fancy and giving us blue sky speculation.
The bottom line is that until you abandon your own ego trip and come to the Living God, you will continue wandering about as confused and lost as ever.
This ladies and gentlemen is why Christians find dealing with Mormons so exasperating.
Mormons will deny what their church has taught and believed and declared even when direct quotes are offered.
It’s always a case of denial and saying something doesn’t mean what it clearly does. No wonder Mormons have the reputation of being dishonest.
They deny, obfuscate and directly contradict what their leaders have declared.
This is a long standing tradition in Mormonism. The religion started as a lie and it continues today.
Shem,
“Not all the splinter groups from the LDS believe in prophets. Example: The Church of Christ (Temple Lot) has apostles, but denies the calling of prophets.
Of those that do many deny basic doctrine taught by Joseph Smith, or even deny Joseph Smith himself as a prophet.
You cannot deny that Mormonism has produced MANY prophets over the last 180 years. Just because one sect no longer believes in a prophet doesn’t mean anything.
“Any of the splinter groups that deny the need for a prophet or the doctrine revealed through Joseph Smith have thus proven themselves false.”
Just your opinion, they claim you are apostate.
“As to the FLDS they denied the basic structure of the church when they turned against the Lord’s anointed servants. They did not accept the process set forth by Joseph Smith, nor did they accept the direct revelations that God would never have more than one person called to lead his church at a time, and that if that person was removed they would be the ones to appoint the new leader. (D&C 43: 3-4) These are the things they deny, and other things they corrupt, and have thus proven that they do not follow the teaching of Joseph Smith.”
Again, just your opinion, they say the same about you. Matthew Gill has restored Joseph Smith’s Mormonism and claims there has not been a true prophet since Joseph Smith. Until now that is, he’s restored it for you. He’s no more of a false prophet than Thomas Monson or Warren Jeffs. Every prophet of Mormonism is a false prophet from the beginning until now. Every sect or “splinter group ” as you seem to want to call them. Again, you all scream false prophet and apostate at each other, insisting that your own brand of Mormonism is the only one with “authority.” You can jump up and down and INSIST the LDS are the only true church, but it’s just as false as the rest of them.
Shem
I have no desire to go into a verse-by-verse interpretation of Amos. You quoted a single verse, Amos 8:9 in your original post saying that it was a clear reference to an apostasy that was to occur in the future. That is not the case & I say again, the book of Amos concerns Gods dealings with & judgement on Israel, that is apart from chapters 1-3, which deal with Her neighbours. Yes chapter 9 does talk about a future restoration of Israel but that changes nothing, the fact remains that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in Amos that talks of a Christian apostasy. Without an apostasy there would be no Joseph Smith & no LDS so you read into Amos something that is not there in a desperate attempt to support a false prophet & a false church
“Q. “Give us the Scriptural definition of a Prophet”
A. When you say scriptural do you mean using only the Bible, or any text that we consider scripture. The Bible itself doesn’t actually give a direct definition of what a prophet is,”
The Bible may not make give a ‘direct definition’ of a prophet but it does make it very clear who is NOT speaking for God. That was made clear in my original post to FofF, something you conveniently choose to ignore. In that post I was comparing Smiths Prophetic record (7.6% accuracy) with the description of a prophet given in Deuteronomy 18:20-22 By those verses alone Smith does not qualify as speaking for God therefore he is a FALSE prophet as defined by Scripture. Read also Jeremiah 23:14 which is a perfect description of your false prophet.
Finally in response to me asking why Smith didn’t finish his translation of the Bible you say this.
“The translation was finished by Joseph Smith, and the purpose for it has been fulfilled. According to law it is owned by the Community of Christ and so we print what we can with their permission and that is sufficient to our needs.”
That’s just obfuscation You know full well that the published edition is NOT the finished edition unless of course your church is wrong when it says this
“It is evident from the manuscripts prepared by the Prophet and his scribes, and also from the statements by the Prophet himself, that he did not correct all of the passages that could be corrected in the Bible. Hence, the new translation is not finished”
What I find interesting is that God would command Smith to translate the Bible but was not able to keep him alive until it was finished. Who do I believe, you or the LDS?