Jana Riess recently wrote about her dismay over the direction the comment thread took when she had posted a review of Lynn Wilder’s new book, Unveiling Grace. Dr. Riess wrote,
“From the first comment forward, it was not the blog post or even the memoir on trial, but the Mormon religion itself. Once that inaugural commenter threw down her gauntlet (‘Mormonism is not a Christian denomination’), the pugilists were off, both Mormon and non-Mormon, duking it out over the veracity of Mormonism’s truth claims. So very predictable, so very tiring, so very unchristian.”
Dr. Riess wrote a thoughtful — and thought-provoking — article, challenging readers to recognize the complexity of belief and the inadequacy of mere words to change a person’s heart and mind. Words can’t do that, she says, but love can.
In the balance of the article, Dr. Riess provides a literary look at the transformation (sanctification) God’s grace can bring about in our lives, overcoming our “sinful and foolish” behavior, replacing it with undefiled beauty.
In the end, Dr. Riess extends an invitation to her vocally contentious readers (and, as I suppose, to others):
“Mormons and evangelicals could all commit to cultivating greater concern for being loving and less concern for being right.”
I have not read the comment thread that inspired Dr. Riess to write the foregoing words, so I do not know what was said, or the way it was said. But informed by my long-experience with Mormon-evangelical debate/dialog, I suggest that Dr. Riess has missed the heart of the issue and therefore has presented a false dichotomy.
I do not disagree that some Mormon-evangelical dialog may be motivated and propelled by a desire to be right. That is something I try to continually guard against in myself. If being right — winning an argument — is what ultimately drives any given Mormon-Christian dialog, I, too, would be disappointed and dismayed at that conversation.
Yet having said that, I do believe Dr. Riess has missed something of great significance. She has set up a scenario wherein love is juxtaposed against pride. We should be more concerned with being loving rather than being right, she says. I suggest that many (if not most) Mormon-Christian dialogs are not motivated by pride (that is, a desire to be right), but by love itself (that is, a desire to see people come to know the truth). The correct characterization of these dialogs is not “love vs. right,” but rather “truth for the sake of love.”
As God has designed it, love and truth are intimately connected. You cannot set aside one without grave expense to the other. If someone is in danger, love compels us to warn her by telling her the truth (even if she does not want to hear it). If we do not warn her (that is, if we set aside truth), we are not demonstrating love. And if we do not really care about her (that is, we set aside love), we contentedly leave her to face her peril alone. If we were to commit to cultivating greater concern for being loving and less concern for speaking essential truth, what would that look like? I contend that it cannot be done. We cannot have love without truth. God Himself is both love and truth (1 John 4:16; John 14:6), and He calls His people to “boldly proclaim the mystery of the gospel,” for which we are ambassadors in chains (Ephesians 6:19-20).
The apostle Paul told the Corinthian church,
For the love of Christ compels us…Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Corinthians 5:14, 20-21 NKJV)
As God works within us to transform us into the people He created us to be, we won’t always get it right. We might sometimes falter and, in the heat of the moment, focus on being right. Even so, if we are followers of Christ, we cannot choose love over truth – God has not given us that option. He has determined that His love will compel us to boldly proclaim the truth of the gospel, to correct spiritual opponents — that is, to speak the truth in love – with the hope that He may grant repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth; for their salvation is His great desire (2 Corinthian 5:14; Ephesians 6:19; 2 Timothy 2:24-26; Ephesians 4:15; 1 Timothy 2:4).
May all Christians be found cultivating an ever-greater commitment to boldly speak the truth for the sake of love.
I’m not even sure what Dr. Reiss means when she says “less concern for being right” if she means winning an argument isn’t as important as love then I would agree, but does less concern for being right mean ignoring truth in favour of showing love? It’s hard to tell from her article.
I may of course be wrong about this but reading between the lines I get the impression that she knows the LDS is not all that it claims to be so she is trying to stifle debate & will be happy to settle for some kind of ‘let’s agree to disagree because love is more important’ Well, of course love is far more important than winning an argument but to assume or claim that it is more important than truth is extremely misleading. Speaking with love & compassion is like reading a book with half the pages missing; you’re getting only half of the story. Speaking the TRUTH with love & compassion is the full unedited version.
@old man
I got the same kind of confusion reading that article. It makes no sense when one side refuses to even acknowledge truth. So I’m just supposed to sit back and not point it out for fear that someone might get “offended” or they might perceive me as being “mean spirited”? That makes no sense.
Well we have the problem of thin skinned Mormons. Any sort of challenge to their beliefs, no matter how touchie feelie and coated with sugar, won’t make the medicine go down any easier. They will say that they are being attacked or persecuted. I will say I’ve toned it down some on this blog over the years but I don’t believe in playing smoochie smooch. That approach gets absolutely no where.
Now I must admit, in a face-to-face encounter with Mormons I’m much more strategic and my tactics are more subtle. I’d prefer to ask them questions that will lead them into a dialogue regarding their history and beliefs. We have to take into account that there are a lot of different Mormon types and different approaches are needed for (the different types).
Jim Spencer says something funny about the Arrogant True Believing Mormons. I don’t know if it’s original with him. He writes that sometimes all you can do is put a dent in their testimony.
Thank you Sharon for putting into words what I try and try to explain to my TBM friends and family when they mistake my passion for contention – which in their minds disqualifies me because “contention is of the devil”.
I wonder what Martin Luther thought of being contentious when contending for the truth? I would suggest that some times there is no other way . And it is also something that is guided by personality type (I believe Luther’s responses were partly driven by a desire for the truth, and partly driven by personality – and that’s okay, isn’t it – or are we all to be placating people pleasers).
I don’t know how they teach the kids now in the LDS Church, but I remember it being ingrained in my mind that Mormons were and continue to be persecuted. I also felt that if someone ever said anything against Mormonism, they were attacking and persecuting me and my faith. I am not even sure where I came up with that idea. I keep thinking about it, and I can’t pinpoint when I learned it or how I was taught it. These are a couple experiences I thought of when I was LDS.
I remember being in HS learning US History or US Government and covering how the US government stepped in and forced the LDS Church to stop practicing polygamy. The point of the class was about freedom of religion and not all religious practices are free. I proudly stood up in front of the class and basically called the teacher a liar ( but not so bluntly) and felt proud of myself for standing in the face of persecution. I told my parents and all the members of my ward about the bad public school history class. I heard similar stories when I was older, of the brave youth that stood up to their school and defended their faith. It was almost a right of passage to do that. Now that I actually know my history, I look back and blush. I just want to call my history teacher up and apologize. I have no idea how she stayed so cool, year after year, as one or two proud Mormon kids each class at that time of year would stand up to the “lies” taught in their history class.
It reminds me of my son’s math lesson yesterday. He’s in preschool and I am teaching him to write 7’s. He kept writing them backwards. I told him the right way. He didn’t believe me. I showed him some books that showed the 7’s. He looked at me and said, “Mom, the book is wrong.” There’s no arguing with that. Hopefully he eventually figures out that he’s backwards on his own, because he won’t believe me or the evidence.
Another experience I had was in HS when I was in seminary and so excited about what I was learning. I was going to convert my whole HS (well at least all my friends). My very dear (to this day) Lutheran friend nicely tried to put a stop to my preaching by meeting with me after school for some Bible talk. We were both not successful in turning the other but I remember how it ended. She brought me some “**** Mormon” literature from her Pastor. I decided I was going to give answers for all the material. The only problem was that I had no idea where any of the info was coming from or how to even check it. I had no idea what the Journal of Discourses was or where to find the History of the Church volumes. The stuff in there (mainly quoting BY) was so insane that I decided it couldn’t be true. So instead of hunting down the sources, I met with her again and said, “I can’t believe your Pastor gave you these lies! My Bishop would never give me material bashing someone else’s religion! This is terrible. How could you trust such a mean spirited person?” I pulled the persecution card.
I always dreamed that my friend would call me up years later and tell me I was right. lol, I never guessed it would have been me. I used to think she was attacking me, now I realize she was so loving. She took the time to talk to me and was very kind in how she shared the scriptures with me. It took me over a decade to understand what she was saying, but now I know she was doing the Christ-like thing. She lovingly shared truth. She lovingly let me make my own decision. She lovingly stayed my friend. We are still friends to this day.
jaxi,
7 is the number of “perfection” in the Bible. You better straighten out that backward kid of yours or he will not be “perfect”!
Great stories you related. It helps remind us/me of the mind-set of the Mormons who show-up here. Time after time we hear former Mormons relate stories of how they didn’t were confronted with information they just knew was all lies and then as they worked through disproving it, found that the LDS church was not what they thought it was.
Knowledge is indeed power.
Now about those 7s………………………………………….
Jaxi – thanks for sharing. Where I live – not SLC but it may as well be – probably 85% LDS and most of the teachers are LDS. I am pretty sure that anything we were taught in school that didn’t fit LDS teachings was either omitted or twisted. I never heard anything in all my years of school that challenged the LDS belief system. I too had a friend in Jr. High that was not LDS and I pushed so hard she stopped being my friend. I always thought she would join but she never did – now I wish I knew where she was so that I could let her know about me. Isn’t it interesting even as youth how arrogant many LDS are – they are right because they know they are right. Last Sunday when I spoke with my parents about my leaving the church all my mom could say when I asked her about even considering the possibility of the church being wrong all she could say was that “I know it is true because I have had too many spiritual experiences for it to be wrong”. It breaks my heart – every day I pray that God will remove the scales from her eyes and give her ears to hear. He brought me out of mormonism so I have faith He will do that for her as well.
mapleleaf,
There it is, the “spiritual” experiences. I’m guessing a lot of those spiritual experiences are emotional experiences where by the Mormon got an (emotional) buzz and just swore that it was spiritual.
What they don’t understand is that we can create our own spiritual experiences and they come right out of our “soul”. I see this in Christian circles also where an ambiance is created and then people swear it’s the Holy Spirit. It’s just emotional manipulation. People will run from meeting to meeting seeking that emotional high, again, mistaking it for something from God.
Go and study the camp meetings from the early 19th century and there were all sorts of manifestations.
Mormons who are beginning to question their religion have to at some point confront what they thought were legitimate spiritual experiences. It all starts with the “burning in the bosom” as a supposed affirmation of the truthfulness of the BoM. It’s all the power of suggestion and a form of seduction.
I say, stick with the Word and question anything that is thought to be a spiritual experience.
If a Mormon were to relate to me their “spiritual” experiences, I would as them to describe to me the god that provided them with those experiences.
I’ve got a book here about “temple manifestations” written by a Mormon and relating all of those 19th century happenings. One Mormon prophet related that the signers of the Declaration of Independence appeared to him demanding that the temple work be done by them.
There are Mormons who will relate to having the “veil” lifted in the temple and seeing the spirits of the dead. Good stuff, huh? Nothing like some disembodied spirits showing up during the dunking for the dead ritual to get someone all fired-up.
Have you ever wondered about the occult symbols on some to the temples and where the temple rituals were lifted from. During the days of the dedication of the Manti temple they put Joseph Smith’s magic rock on the altar. Good stuff, right? Nothing like a magic seer stone used to look into the ground to see buried treasure as an icon.
Yea, Mormons can have all sorts of spiritual experiences. Some come out of their own imaginations and others from the “god” they worship.
I meant to write that the signers of the Declaration of Independence demanded that the temple work be done “for” them not “by” them.
I get a little fired up over this topic and sometimes my brain and fingers don’t sync the way they should.
There is a ton of Mormon folk tales and a BYU professor has documented them.
Here’s a site you might find amusing. And it’s not @nti-Mormon
http://www.holyfetch.com/
I’ve always found it interesting how so many Mormons are so predictable when witnessing to
them because sooner or later they resort to accusing you of “bashing ” ; “attacking” , or seeking
to ” destroy their faith” . It’s amazing how much this mind set plays a part in their lives .
It’s refreshing when one does’nt resort to this crutch .
Wilburson, If LDS claim you are being contentious then point out to them that Jesus was not being very Jesus like and was being contentious when He mad a whip of cords Twice and cleansed the temple. Or when He said of His own Disciples, Slow of heart, or when John the baptist said Brood of Vipers and white washed tombs, or when the apostles called down blindness upon a false sorcerer, or many other things along this line.
Then you can also point out that their LDS prophets, and presidents and scriptures tell us to expose JS if he is a fraud and liar, or to meet our enemies in public or private and talk about these things.
Thanks Rick…
I have a personal example of why you can’t rely on feelings alone etc. When I was on my mission in the South, Spencer W. Kimball was still in charge, but on his last leg, so to speak, in fact – he could barely stand. All of us missionaries were gathered to watch General Conference from the local Stake Center and when Kimball got up (or was helped up) to give some final remarks I was so touched by his efforts to get up there and the difficulty with which he stood there and spoke etc. I was absolutely overcome with emotion; to the point that I had to leave the chaple. I went into a classroom alone with my journal and began writing all of the things I was feeling – including how I ABSOLUTELY KNEW that this man was a prophet of God. I was crying my eyes out; snot flying and everything… but here’s the deal….have you ever read Kimball’s book “The Miracle of Forgiveness” (more aptly titled “The Impossibility of Forgiveness”)? One of the most horrific books ever written and proof that the man was completely ignorant of the gospel. Yet it is still being recommended as a great read by current GA’s in General Conference such as Richard G. Scott (big surprise!). Anyway, the point is that it was clearly NOT the Spirit I was feeling that day on my mission since the Spirit only testifies of Truth and there wasn’t much truth coming from the pen of the man who wrote that book. Of course, I embraced that book and all of Mormonism as a TBM , but in 2004 – for various reasons – I went on a quest for truth; and for the first time I read the Bible without my Mormon glasses on – without my presuppositions and built-in suspicions. I read it very prayerfully and humbly and WITH REAL INTENT; I will NEVER be the same. I realized then and there that I had been in church all of my life and NEVER heard the Gospel. I could go on and on, but there you have it! I have been out for over 8 years now and learning the beautiful difference between being CONFORMED to a pattern of behavior, religion and morality and being TRANSFORED by the Holy Spirit of Almighty God! I am a new creation in Christ and it is a blessed and marvelous thing. Praise God!!!!
Wilburson , welcome !
@wilburson
were you reading and praying about the BOM when all of this happened to you? JUST KIDDING!
welcome to the club here! Your story gives me great joy in knowing I’m on the right path out of mormonism.
Cheers!
wilburson,
To sort of paraphrase the apostle Paul, “…..to those who are perishing the gospel is nonsense”.
A TBM reading your above post wouldn’t “get it” at all. They would have no idea what you are talking about because they think, believe and more importantly “feel” that they have the gospel.
Sad to say, they are perishing and don’t know it. That’s what Mormonism does because it is a form of religion with piety, devotion, sincerity and a standard of behavior.
What it doesn’t have is the Lord Jesus Christ.
I got a kick out of our TBM poster Ralph saying recently that the Jesus He believes in is the Biblical Jesus. Compare what Ralph says he finds when reading the Bible and what you found.
The key to your finding the authentic Biblical Jesus came when you took off your Mormon glasses, as you said, and read the Bible unencumbered with the constraints of the Mormon belief system.
May God continue to bless you as He already has in coming to a knowledge of the saving grace of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Wilburson,
The book should be called, its a miracle you can be forgiven.
Seriouly though, I sit here writing you from my phone sitting in a coffee house waiting for some mormon missionarys, we have a meeting at 3pm.
I am going to read them your reply to me, I wonder how they will react. Rick
There are Mormons, maybe I should say “most” Mormons, who stand on the truth of what they believe mainly because they think they have received confirming spiritual experiences.
Evidence has very little sway with people who are basing their belief system on emotions masquerading as spiritual experiences. What happens then is people try to find some rational evidenc to support what they want to believe.
I know our buddy Ralph is reluctant to share his spiritual experiences with us. I don’t know if he believes these experiences are so deep and personal that he can’t share them or he fears having the experiences analyzed for validity.
Here’s what we do know. People from all sorts of religious traditions have spiritual experiences. It’s part and parcel of religion. So we can swap spiritual experiences back and forth all day long trying to one-up each other.
At the end of the day however, I doubt that anyone would change their mind based on someone else having a better faith story.
My point is, find out who the person sharing the story attributes the experience to. In-other-words, I want to know who their God is.
Mormons will also make the charge to me that I haven’t read the BoM so how do I know it’s not true. I ask them very straight forwardly to tell me who the god is that provided the revelation. Once I know that, I don’t need to read or experience something to know if it’s true or not.
There isn’t a generic god in the sense that people can fill him up with their own meaning.
The Lord God revealed Himself to His prophets who recorded (the revelation) in written form. We have the account in the Bible.
God must be met through His revealed Word. It confirms who He is. He may or may not provide spiritual experiences along the way but the point is, He can be trusted to tell us who He is and what the steps are to obtain eternal life.
4fivesolas
If Martin Luther was contending for the truth what was happening before he came along?
Clyde
“If Martin Luther was contending for the truth what was happening before he came along?”
That’s a red herring Clyde, what was happening prior to Martin Luther is irrelevant to this topic, 4fivesolas was making the point that truth is vital & sometimes the truth will seem to be contentious, so, here’s a question for you.
As a member of the LDS Corporation, which is more important to you, speaking the truth with the risk of appearing contentious, or putting the truth to one side in order to appear loving & win converts?
In other words, which is right, the Christian way or the Mormon way?
It’s common knowledge that the LDS hides many facts in order to win converts; do you think that’s right? If you do then perhaps you should study the Islamic faith; a belief system that of course you will rightfully say is non-Christian. You may not realise this but there is much that you hold in common, e.g. a lie spoken by commission or omission in order to gain an advantage over a non-believer or to win converts being one of them.
Let me remind you of what Boyd K. Packer said about truth.
” Some things that are true are not very useful……The Lord made it clear that some things are to be taught selectively and some things are to be given only to those who are worthy…”
The truth can be given only to those who are worthy? It’s strange but after all the times I’ve read the Gospels I still can’t remember reading that, I must be getting old.
clyde wrote:
“If Martin Luther was contending for the truth what was happening before he came along?”
I would suggest clyde that if you want to be part of this forum, that instead of writing out a one sentence post, you actually spend some time formulating a decent proposal outlining your contentions.
While you’re at it, why don’t you address what was going on in the Mormon church just prior to Joseph Smith being shot? In-other-words, what were the precipitating factors that led to him being in jail?
We can play this game all day long if you wish. How about this: What was going on in the Mormon church that resulted in Federal Troops being sent to Utah?
“The Utah Territory soon numbered 40,000 Mormons, but non-Mormons were officially discouraged from settling there. Young, as leader of both the Mormon Church and the Utah territorial government, made no distinction between church and state, and refused to allow the legislative and judicial branches to act independently of his authority. In December 1856, Mormons broke into the law offices of Judge George Stiles (an excommunicated Mormon), burning his books and stealing his records. Judge W. W. Drummond accused the Mormons of poisoning his predecessor. Both federal judges returned to Washington in early 1857, claiming they had been prevented from carrying out their official duties. The Mormons countered that the judges had attempted to commit land fraud.”
In May 1857, President Buchanan named Alfred Cumming, a non-Mormon, to replace Young as the territorial governor of Utah, and a slate of non-Mormons to other administrative and judicial positions. In order to protect the federal appointees and uphold law and order, Buchanan authorized Colonel Albert Sydney Johnston and 2500 federal troops to accompany the officials to Utah. Along the way, Mormon raiders destroyed 74 wagons of army supplies, stampeded the army’s horses and cattle, and burned the Utah grasslands, forcing Johnston’s men to spend a harsh winter at Fort Bridger, about 100 miles northeast of Salt Lake City. The raid turned out to be the only “battle” of the “war.” There were, however, numerous deaths among the federal soldiers due to the deprivation and cold. In southern Utah, a group of Mormons attacked and killed 137 non-Mormons bound for California (the Mountain Meadows Massacre).
“Although a full-scale crisis was averted, tensions between Mormons and the federal government continued for decades. Congress outlawed polygamy and other forms of plural marriage in 1862, which the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously upheld in 1879, and disfranchised polygamists in 1882. In 1890, the Mormon Church announced that it no longer condoned the practice of polygamy, and in 1896 Congress finally admitted the Utah Territory to statehood.”
The entire article from the New York Times can be read at:
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/harp/1128.html
clyde said,
If Martin Luther was contending for the truth what was happening before he came along?
I say,
Christ’s Church was here and growing with the help of Christians like John Wycliffe and Jan Hus who were contending for the truth. Often the growth was hidden and imperceptible to the naked eye but the kingdom was growing.
Just like it always has done just like it is doing today just like Christ promised would happen.
quote:
And he said, “The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground. He sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and grows; he knows not how. The earth produces by itself, first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear. But when the grain is ripe, at once he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.” And he said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable shall we use for it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown on the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth, yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and puts out large branches, so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade.”
(Mark 4:26-32)
and:
He told them another parable. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.”
(Matthew 13:33)
end quote:
peace
clyde,
I see in your question the real bug-a-boo you and most Mormons have which is that there must be a “one true church”. That’s the whole premise of Mormonism after all, isn’t it? God’s Church went into apostasy after the first century apostles died and the “gospel” was lost. Then in 1830 there abouts, a prophet arouse in the tradition of the great OT prophets and “restored” God’s “one true church”. Today that “one true church” is headed by modern day apostles and prophets anointed by God to guide His “one true church”.
Did I get the scenario right?
So how does the Protestant Reformation kicked-off by Martin Luther fit into all of this? But here’s the real problem in the Mormon scenario. In a denominational sense, there is no one true Church. Jesus established His Church. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. The “church” Jesus established was based on His claim to divinity, His death, burial, resurrection and promise that He would return to claim His bride, the church.
The Church Jesus talked about is made up by all those who acknowledge who He is and claim, through faith, His sacrifice for their sins.
The LDS church with its different god, different Jesus, and plan of salvation made up of man-made rules and rituals will not lead someone to eternal life.
The only one who can grant eternal life is the One, only true God who provides salvation through the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.
I don’t know, I suppose we could debate the cause for the Protestant Reformation and all of the political conflicts contributing to it and once again it would be one of clyde’s empty Mormon rabbit trails that avoids the real questions.
Who is God? Who is Jesus? What is God’s plan of salvation.
I have asked a simple question Of which I will not get a very good answer from you.
One person says it is irrevelant, another wants to direct it back to the Mormon church, and another mentions John Wyclif who was burned at the stake. Something is wrong here.
You see history is a very strange animal. I read about the men on the moon hoax before I joined the church. When someone mentions that and the church in the same sentence their credibility drops in my eyes. Falcon mentions the utah war. In conflicts regretful things happen. Mountain meadows was one of them but it happened at the same time as the Utah war. It is bad at times what one will do to protect his home.
Clyde,
Check this video out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RZwJsv6f_9Y
It was made to address the claims of another group that holds that that there was a great apostasy and that God needed to provide a new prophet to restore his original church.
As you watch the try to think how you would refute this groups claims to being the one true church while at the same time agreeing with all their premises.
You see once you cut yourself off from the Bible and God’s promises to his church and attached yourself to someone claiming to speak for God you can only hope you picked the right one (there are many).
orthodox Christians on the other hand can look to the Bible and rest assured that someone else is guaranteeing they get it all right!!! We will always overcome!!!!!
quote:
but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
(John 10:26-28)
end quote:
peace
How did it go yesterday, Rick? Prayed for you and those you met with. I’m in the midst of conversations with a Mormon friend who is clinging to spiritual experiences that pull her in one direction, while truth is pulling her in another.
Clyde
I was the person who said the Marin Luther question was irrelevant & so it was. The topic concerned whether the truth should be put to one side in order to show love. As your question had nothing to do with what was being discussed there seemed little point in answering it. However, I asked you a question that had everything to do with the topic at hand & you declined to answer so, I’ll ask you again & hopefully you will give me an answer.
“As a member of the LDS Corporation, which is more important to you, speaking the truth with the risk of appearing contentious, or putting the truth to one side in order to appear loving & win converts?
It’s a simple question so a simple answer will suffice.
clyde,
You contend that you’ve asked a simple question. I say, why don’t you answer it yourself and present it in the form of a post here.
I’m not going to respond to your “assignments”, which is what your question was. Now why should I, or the others, comply with your request? Do it yourself.
It’s the same old tactic you Mormon posters always use; attempt to get the Christians to chase around the mulberry bush at your command. It’s not going to happen.
You do a presentation on the Catholic Church just prior to the reformation and the after effects of Martin Luther’s thesis. Then you explore reformation theology and compare and contrast it with Catholic theology.
There you go buddy, your assignment. Have at it! Do your own chasing.
Hello bloom,
I thought it went well, their ended up being 3 missionary’s, One of the guys was an up coming missionary in training. Over all one of them sat their and I could tell he did not care about anything I said. The mormon trainee at first seemed like he was interested but then started looking like he did not care.
A 3rd guy, by the time we were about to end, he looked like he was gonna cry. I think he was seriously challenged . He said he would write me via email and we will talk, but only time will tell.
Others were doing the same thing. Someone has always been “contending for the truth” since the Garden of Eden. This question is so broad that it doesn’t demand a detailed answer, because it is not a serious question. (Mostly because Clyde doesn’t ever ask any or care about any answers given to them – if he ever happens to ask one).
grindael,
Right on!! as we used to say in the 60s.
clyde’s strategy is to keep people tied-up answering his inane stupid questions. He thinks he can bop in here (50s lingo), write out one sentence in the form of a question and then be on his way. What we’re suppose to do is take up all of our valuable time formulating answers to questions that he really could care less about. Then he can say triuphantly, “No one could/would answer my question” and the implication is, he wins (in his mind).
So is the mind-set of the naive TBM!
In church yesterday we were shown a video by Penn Gillette saying that Christians, if they are sincere, should preach the Gospel. He even asked a question suggesting how much a person must hate others to not share it. He compared not sharing the Gospel to watching a person get hit by a train without warning the person of the oncoming train. Penn, of Penn & Teller, is very much an atheist, but even he recognizes the urgency of the Gospel message.
It saddens me to think a religious group who considers themselves Christian gets offended when they hear our message.
I love Penn and Tells Magic shows, They are the Best. But they as you said are very much God Hating atheists. And if an atheist understands this idea, then we should also.
As far as Clyde goes, Maybe so he does not waste our time, maybe his replys should be set up to go straight into Mod jail. Sadly Clyde cannot be trusted, he did say, I’m done here, but he keeps coming back, so he is not trustworthy.
Here’s the video, for those that are interested, showing Penn Gillette’s comments on spreading the Gospel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhG-tkQ_Q2w
It is a very interesting segment. I give him credit for his honesty.
Gee it is sad when you avoid things you don’t want to hear. My question was meant to make you think. Even though the church organization might be perfect the people aren’t. You seem to want to talk about how bad the church is and when someone tries to explain what you might see is wrong you don’t want him around. So lets talk about something else-I like the penn and teller one with John Cleese. You know teller in the water cage.
Clyde, the church organization perfect ? If by this you are saying that what was restored by
Joseph Smith was the very same “church organization ” that Jesus’ established through His
apostles 1700 years earlier , then your comment is wrong .
You said , ” You seem to want to talk about how bad the church is ….”
Clyde, do you realize that for a while now you have exhibited a pattern in your comments here?
These comments usually are about how bad some religious people were several centuries after
Christ . You seem to read a book (s) about the controversies in this time period and base your
opinion about Christian belief / behavior on them to a large extent . Why ?
Do you understand my point ?
We’re praying for you to exchange your allegiance to the latter days prophets you follow ,
over to the true ones in the Bible alone . Mormonism is not the answer . Jesus is .
I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant any church in the first sentence and the mormon church in the second. I believe the mormonism is the answer but I envy at times how some christian conduct themselves.
Clyde
This may be a little off topic but I would like you to give it some thought
Don’t you ever wonder what it must be like to live by one simple admonition rather than a multitude of contradictory rules that must be followed?
I refer of course to John 3:16 & before you say anything, yes I know that I continually mention that verse, the reason being that it’s arguably the most important verse in the N/T. Having come to a position in life where you can simply say “I truly believe that Christ died for me & I want him to control my life” you will find that there is nothing more you can or have to do. Everything after that is of Christ in whom you become a new creation, no need for rules because the rules such as they are become part of your nature, no need to worry about having done enough; it was all done for you on the cross. It really is that simple my friend.
I’m aware that you, or other LDS in here will say, ‘what about repentance, what about the ordinances’? Well, repentance follows naturally from belief, it’s Gods touch that brings the sinner to repentance & there is no need for ordinances, all they do is place you under the control of men. When God has his hand on you anything He requires of you or from you, will quietly fall into place. All this follows on from simply believing what is said in John 3:16
Clyde,
Your church is perfect? Yet… Where shall I begin?
Its quite the statement. And history raises questions on that. Do you wish to go through the questions?
I’ll spare the repetitive nature of that discussion and conclusively say that your church is not perfect. Jesus is perfect, not a church– including yours.
Now, I was not responding to you above. I was making a general comment that we, as Christians, have a responsibility to share the gospel. Not only did Jesus issue this in the Great Commission, but when it is a life or death situation, we need to make sure we try to give people the message that death is around the corner unless they accept Christ.
Mormons are included in that group of people that need to hear this message of salvation. Yet, you claim to be Christian and get offended when you hear it. At least one of the most ardent atheists out there recognizes the urgency of the message, even if he rejects the message. As Christians, you should understand this point, yet you don’t.
I’ve said before that I would respect Mormons more when it comes to defending their faith if they would at least try to understand where we come from, and what we say. Yet, you don’t. You do far more complaining about how no one else understands you and how you are persecuted. I think Penn gets that it is a two way street. You don’t.
clyde said,
I believe the mormonism is the answer
I say,
Why?
Why not Islam or Scientology?
Which flavor of Mormonism is the answer?
Will Mormonism always be the answer or might there be an apostasy and how would you know?
As Mike R said we Christians believe that Jesus is the answer!
IMO It’s a lot safer placing trust in the almighty unchanging Son of God than trusting ones soul to an ability to pick just one organization from a list of hundreds of ever-changing options each claiming to be the answer.
peace
Fifth Monarch,
Isn’t that supposedly the exact question Smith was asking when he was told that none of the Christian denominations were true?
Interesting question there, huh?
I enjoy your posts…
MJP said,
Isn’t that supposedly the exact question Smith was asking when he was told that none of the Christian denominations were true?
I say,
That he would even ask the question shows that his mind and heart were not in the right place. I even can’t imagine a Christian praying and asking if the Methodists or the Baptists or the Presbyterians were the “one true church”.
We Christians know that all churches are a mix of good and bad and that the “One true church” is not a human organization at all but is enrolled in heaven and made up of all people who are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ regardless of any earthly organization they might belong to.
Lest you think this is a modern attitude here is a quote from a confession of faith from long before JS was a twinkle in his father’s eye.
quote:
Thus being rightly gathered, and continuing in the obedience of the gospel of Christ, none are to separate for faults and corruptions (for as long as the church consists of men subject to failings, there will be difference in the true constituted church) until they have in due order, and tenderness, sought redress thereof
And although the particular congregations be distinct, and several bodies, every one as a compact and knit city within itself; yet are they all to walk by one rule of truth; so also they (by all means convenient) are to have the counsel and help one of another, if necessity require it, as members of one body, in the common faith, under Christ their head.
end quote: (1644 London Baptist confession of faith)
and then there is this
quote:
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly (CHURCH) of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
(Hebrews 12:22-24)
end quote:
peace
PS I like your posts as well
I think there were more church rivalries in the 18th and 19th centuries, so I am not necessarily surprised that he asked the question. However, I do agree that the question is off. Instead of asking which denomination was true, he could well have asked different questions, including to reveal Himself. However, the story is as it is. Smith asked God to tell him which church was true.
It is important to note that God’s church is the collection of believers, and not a specific organization. Christ is the church’s bride, and those in Christ comprise the church. This is misunderstood by LDS in a great way.
MJP said,
Instead of asking which denomination was true, he could well have asked different questions, including to reveal Himself.
I say,
How about questions like these.
What must I do to be saved?
How long? (Revelation 6:10)
How can you possibly love a wretched sinner like me?
Why do the righteous seem to suffer while the wicked prosper?
Where can I find truth? (psalm 119:60) (proverbs 30:5)
What is truth?
Questions like these seem to reflect at least a basic biblical understanding of things.
Asking what earthly organization is the one true one is just illogical.
What does it even mean for an organization to be “true”? Organizations are not true or false propositions or beliefs are.
It is a category error like asking what color is Jazz or what does the internet smell like.
peace