The Adam God Challenge

Once upon a time I was a member of the Mormon Church. I was converted at age 14 and ardently followed the teachings and lifestyle of Mormonism. I went to Church every Sunday, read the Book of Mormon, and had an active and productive Mormon lifestyle.

In High School, I went to Seminary, and when I turned 19 I could not wait to go on a mission. Unfortunately for me, a few months after my 19th birthday I got in a very bad motorcycle accident; which delayed my mission for two years. But I still went, even though I had serious problems with one of my legs that had gotten smashed by a car.

Legend_BYU_LogoWhen I got back, I worked for awhile and then went where many good, active Mormons went: to BYU.  I worked full time and had a full college schedule to deal with, along with my callings in the local Ward I went to in Provo.  My area of expertise was Church History, and I had made up my mind that when I graduated from BYU I was going to be a Church Historian.

I was so devout that on one occasion I turned down a date with a very beautiful girl that wanted me to take her to a movie called 48 Hours, starring Eddie Murphy. I declined because it was rated ‘R’.  So what happened?

My insatiable appetite for knowledge about Church History caught up with me.

When I first moved to Provo and started going to the “Y”, I got an apartment.  The first thing that I did was hit the local lumberyard to buy some wood to make shelves. I bought eight-foot pine boards, 1/2 an inch thick, and made myself a set of shelves to hold all of my books. It was eight feet wide and six feet high. I had a lot of books. I collected them, and I filled those bookshelves.

On weekends, I would drive all over Utah hitting bookstores to find interesting out-of-print books on Mormon History. One weekend I found myself in southern Utah in the St. George area, and walked into a bookstore that was owned by a Fundamentalist Mormon. He gave me a book by Ogden Kraut called “Michael—Adam,” written in 1938. I had a long talk with the man about the Church and remember thinking, as I left the store, that he was crazy.  When I got home I filed the book away and forgot about it.

A few months later I was preparing for a Sunday School lesson about D&C Section 27 (and the priesthood), and I spied that book about Michael. I read it with fascination, and then disbelief.  I thought, “This guy is twisting these references; they don’t say what he says they do.”  Yet most of them were in the Journal of Discourses, which I myself had referenced many times over the years.

ElizaSnowYou see, I was familiar with some of the quotes Kraut used, but didn’t understand them in context. I now had the context, and I fought it tooth and nail. I spent the next few months tracking down and verifying every quote that I could from that book. The more I searched, the more I knew that Ogden Kraut had quoted Brigham Young in proper context.  For example, consider this poem by Eliza R. Snow:

Adam, your God, like you on earth, has been
Subject to sorrow in a world of sin;
Through long gradation he arose to be
Cloth’d with the Godhead’s might and majesty.
And what to him in his probative sphere,
Whether a Bishop, Deacon, Priest, or Seer?
Whate’er his offices and callings were,
He magnified them with assiduous care;

By his obedience he obtain’d the place
Of God and Father of this human race.
Life’s ultimatum, unto those that live
As saints of God, and all my pow’rs receive;
Is still the onward, upward course to tread–
To stand as Adam and as Eve, the head
Of an inheritance, a new-form’d earth,
And to their spirit-race, give mortal birth–

Give them experience in a world like this;
Then lead them forth to everlasting bliss.
Crown’d with salvation and eternal joy
Where full perfection dwells, without alloy.
(Eliza R. Snow, An Immortal, 188-89)

This places Brigham Young’s teachings about Adam in perfect context. According to Brigham Young, this was Mormonism’s Plan of Salvation. To me, it was inconceivable.

I remember how excited I was by this aspect of Mormonism (The Plan of Salvation) when I was converted, and how much my Mormon friends and I drank in things like the book “Life After Life” by Raymond Moody (it was very popular around that time), and going to Mormon productions like “Saturday’s Warriors.”

What I couldn’t wrap my mind around was what I now found Brigham Young actually teaching: that Adam… was God, the Father of our spirits, and the literal Father of Jesus Christ in the flesh. For all those who say that it doesn’t make sense, well it didn’t to me back then either. But then, I wasn’t as familiar with all of Young’s teachings back then. For example, he taught,

“But the fact exists that the Father, the Divine Father, whom we serve, the God of the Universe, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father of our spirits, provided this sacrifice and sent his Son to die for us; and it is also a great fact that the Son came to do the will of the Father, and he has paid the debt, in fulfillment of the scripture which says, ‘He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!’ Is it so on any other earth? On every earth!” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 14:71)

Brigham YoungYes, I thought, Jesus’ Atonement covers them all. But you have to keep reading.  He then says,

“How many earths are there? I observed this morning that you may take the particles of matter composing this earth, and if they could be enumerated they would only be a beginning to the number of the creations of God; and they are continually coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same experience that we are passing through.”

That’s fine. I agreed with that. But then Young teaches,

“Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let us know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fulness of glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof, in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 14:71-72. Bold emphasis added.)

Jesus was unique only to this world! Every world has its Jesus. Every world has its Satan. And every world has its Adam & Eve, each Adam the god of that world, who falls with one of his wives and become mortal again and again, so that they might start the process to redeem the spirit children assigned to each world by giving them mortal bodies.

How does all this work? Well, Brigham Young answered it. We all become Adams. The rest of it (as I found out), Brigham Young did indeed teach as doctrine and called it a revelation from God.

This did not sit well with me and so I started asking around. I went to my Bishop which was a colossal waste of time. I went to my Stake President. Same thing. I went on Campus and received a lot more answers, but was told to keep them to myself. But I didn’t. I went back to my Stake President and demanded answers. He eventually wrote to Church Headquarters and they told him to have me read Mark E. Peterson’s book, Adam, Who Is He?

I read the book and saw that Peterson had been very deceptive in many places. For example, Peterson wrote,

“We do not know what part Michael played in the creation of this earth. President Young did not make it clear.” (Adam, Who is He?, 83)

But Brigham Young made it perfectly clear on more than one occasion. Take this example from a sermon given at General Conference, October 8, 1854 (Wilford Woodruff called this the “greatest sermon ever given to the Latter-day Saints as a people”):

“Elohim looked around upon the eternity of matter, and said to his associates, and those that he was pleased to call upon at that time for his counselors, with regard to the elements, worlds, planets, kingdoms and thrones; said he, ‘Yahovah[,] Michael, see that eternal matter on all sides, this way and that way; we have already created worlds upon worlds, shall we create another world? Yes, go and organize the elements yonder in space;’ not empty space, for there is no such thing, once in a while, [the] earth quakes, and the extensive destruction of combustible matter by fire will come nigh, making empty space for perhaps the millionth part of a second. ‘Yahovah[,] Michael, go and create a world, make it, organize it, form it; and then put upon it every thing in all the variety that you have seen, that you have been in the habit of being associated with in other worlds, of beasts, birds, fowl, fish, and every insect, and creeping thing,”– and finally, the whole eternity of element is full of life, bring it together and make of it living creatures.’

“Yahovah [and] Michael, goes and does as they are told. What I am now going to tell you, will no doubt astonish the whole of you. When Yahovah [and] Michael had organized the world, and brought from another kingdom the beasts, fish, fowl, and insects, and every tree, and plant with which we are acquainted, and thousands that we never saw, when he had filled the earth with animal and vegetable life, Michael, or Adam, goes down to the new made world, and there he stays.” (Essential Brigham Young, 94)

That, along with other things that happened, made me realize that Brigham Young (as well as every other Mormon “prophet”) wasn’t worth following.  Many years later, I realized how much at odds the teachings of Brigham Young and Joseph Smith were compared to the Bible.

Take this statement, also written by  Eliza R. Snow,

“Man is the offspring of the Gods. This is the supreme conception which gives to religion its very soul. Unless man’s divinity comes in somewhere, religion is the wretchedest humbug that ever deluded mortals. But the sublime and most primitive conception of Mormonism is that man in his essential being is divine, that he is the offspring of God–that God is indeed his Father.” (Women of Mormondom, 192)

According to the Bible, this is demonstrably false. We are only divine if and when we take on the divine nature, and become sons through adoption. (See, John 1:12-13, Colossians 1:16, John 3:10, Romans 8:14-17, Galatians 4:5-6, Ephesians 1:5, Galatians 3:26.)

Brigham Young taught that Adam was the Father of the spirits of Mankind. I challenge any Mormon to prove that he didn’t teach it, and that it can’t be clearly understood in the light of Joseph Smith’s doctrinal progression.  Here is some ammo for you all to use. I guarantee that I can rebut everything that Brian Hales tries to argue here. Good luck, if any of you dare to take the challenge.

This entry was posted in Brigham Young, Early Mormonism, God the Father and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

66 Responses to The Adam God Challenge

  1. falcon says:

    Now you and I both know that Young, Smith and the rest of this crew really didn’t mean it, did they? They were just speculating. You know, just some flight of fancy sitting around the camp fire at night staring at the stars sort of playing “let’s pretend”.
    Besides, this is all a long time ago and it has no real application to today’s LDS church. Notice I didn’t say “Mormon” church because there are a lot of different Mormon sects, many of whom do not deny anything you point out in your article. They embrace it!
    I really appreciate your dedication to bringing these things that were taught, believed and practiced by early Mormons to our attention because its the foundation of these various groups. The LDS folks think that if anyone brings out something that doesn’t flatter their church, it’s persecution. Those of us who labor in ministries such as MC know it’s our duty to point out these things because Mormons are woefully ignorant of the history of their own church.

    I’m including a couple of links to a TV appearance by Dr. Walter Martin going back to 1985 towards the end of his life. There are actually five parts but I think part two would be of interest to our visitors and contributors. I love his presentation style. He was straight forward, knowledgeable and pulled no punches.
    The portions are about twelve minutes in length.

  2. johnnyboy says:


    I just wanted to thank you for all you do in exposing the myth that is Mormonism. Your knowledge on topics has affected me over the years to do serious research and soul searching. And your academic tone in addressing all the TBM’s that come here to defend the church is an example to all those that seek truth.

    Thanks again.

  3. Old man says:

    I would just like to second everything that johnnyboy said. It’ll be very interesting to see how the resident apologists react to your excellent article, but I for one won’t be holding my breath waiting for a sensible dialogue to ensue.

  4. grindael says:


    I could be better with my tone, but it’s frustrating when people will deny the plain facts. I put this out there, because I believe that very few believing Mormons will address it with evidence. What I ask for is quotes, with reasoned analysis. We rarely get that here, instead getting opinions and general statements that we don’t understand what Brigham said. For example, we have the word of Brigham Young that Joseph taught him so. Here is Edward Tullidge and Eliza R. Snow explaining perfectly what Brigham taught,

    “Adam is our Father and God. He is the God of the earth.” So says Brigham Young. Adam is the great archangel of this creation. He is Michael. He is the Ancient of Days. He is the father of our elder brother, Jesus Christ – the father of him who shall also come as Messiah to reign. He is the father of the spirits as well as the tabernacles of the sons and daughters of man. Adam! …

    Brightest among these spirits, and nearest in the circle to our Father and Mother in heaven (the Father being Adam), were Seth, Enoch, Noah and Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus Christ – indeed that glorious cohort of men and women, whose lives have left immortal records in the world’s history. … These are the sons and daughters of Adam–the Ancient of Days–the Father and God of the whole human family. These are the sons and daughters of Michael, who is Adam, the father of the spirits of all our race. These are the sons and daughters of Eve, the Mother of a world. What a practical Unitarianism is this! The Christ is not dragged from his heavenly estate, to be mere mortal, but mortals are lifted up to his celestial plane. He is still the God-Man; but he is one among many brethren who are also God-Men. Moreover, Jesus is one of a grand order of Saviours. Every world had its distinctive Saviour, and every dispensation its Christ. There is a glorious Masonic scheme among the Gods. The everlasting orders come down to us with their mystic and official names. The heavens and the earths have a grand leveling; not by pulling down celestial spheres, but by lifting up of mortal spheres. ~Edward Tullidge & Eliza R. Snow, March, 1877, Women of Mormondom, 179, 191.

    The oracle of this last grand truth of women’s divinity and of her eternal Mother as the partner with the Father in the creation of worlds, is none other [than] the Mormon Church. It was revealed in the glorious theology of Joseph and established by Brigham in the vast patriarchal system which he has made firm as the foundations of the earth, by proclaiming Adam as our Father and God. The Father is first in name and order, but the Mother is with him – these twain, one from the beginning. ~Edward Tullidge & Eliza R. Snow, March, 1877, Women of Mormondom, 193-4.

    Those of Brigham’s day had no trouble understanding what Young was teaching. It is plain and simple.

  5. falcon says:

    You know what I’m wondering? I’m wondering how the LDS church members know that what Brigham Young had to say about the nature of God isn’t true?
    How did/do they test the words of the prophet and determine that in fact Adam and God weren’t the same persons?
    Brigham Young was a prophet of the LDS church wasn’t he. Didn’t what he say come from the mouth of God to (Brigham’s) spiritual ears? How do members of the LDS church know that subsequent prophets and apostles were in error when they stamped Brigham’s doctrine with the words null and void?
    While we’re at it, how do the members of the LDS church know that the decree that stopped the practice of polygamy wasn’t wrong?
    I would think there would be some serious trust issues with members concerning their leadership when so much of what has been taught and practiced was later renounced.
    How do LDS folks know that the gospel disappeared from the earth upon the death of the original apostles? Is there any evidence of this? Can the LDS leadership be trusted when they make such a statement?
    Finally, how do LDS members know which version of God that was taught by Joseph Smith was the real one? Was it the first version which pretty much patterned after the standard of orthodox Christianity or the fourth one where Smith declared God a former man and taught that men could become gods.
    There are at least two sects of Mormonism that reject a good share, if not most of what Smith taught when he got into full mojo and began his creative experiment.

    If I were a Mormon, I’d open my NT, read it, and put my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and forget all of the foolishness that defines Mormonism.

  6. jaxi says:

    Adam God Doctrine was a real problem for me. When I discovered it I sought answers from LDS. Some didn’t know a thing. Some said it was Young’s opinion. Other said he was right and its a higher truth that couldn’t be accepted by the faithless Saints so the Doctrine was removed until LDS could be faithful again (he said the same thing about Christ being killed because of polygamy). For me it came down to, either Brigham was wrong and was so far from being inspired he didn’t even know who God was (what kind of prophet is that), or he was right and the LDS Church is in a state of apostasy. Or they had some pretty confused secretaries recording things that never got corrected, which for me was a bit of a reach. My mind was finally free from this mess once I let go of Mormonism and found the real Jesus Christ.

  7. Rick B says:

    As we can see, No LDS have replied yet, and I suspect they wont, If they do, it will be more of the same, just drive by’s like Alex or silkworm types.

  8. falcon says:

    When looking at historical matters, it’s a good practice to put one’s self in the context of that which is being commented on. When we examine BY and his preaching of doctrine, we must ask ourselves, “Can we reasonably accept the premise that BY dominated and controlled the church of which he was the head?” And, “Would he stand up in the pulpit of the Salt Lake Tabernacle and announce that he was to preach a sermon that was mere speculation on his part?”

    Let’s look at the historical record:

    “On April 9, 1852, Brigham Young, the second president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), rose to the pulpit of the Salt Lake Tabernacle and announced, “It is my intention to preach several discourses this evening, but how many I do not know.” During his speech President Young explained that he was going to speak on the character of the “well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views.”

    “At that particular moment it is doubtful that any of the people present realized that their prophet was about to give one of the most controversial sermons, not only of his life, but perhaps in the entire history of his church. Following a long one-paragraph introduction, Young proclaimed that Adam was Michael the Archangel, and that he was also the Ancient of Days. Young went on to conclude that Adam was, in fact, “our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do.” In this message, Mormonism’s second president explained that Eve was only one of Adam’s wives and that Jesus Christ “was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” Instead, Young said, He “was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.”
    “Let it also be noted that just four years before his death, Brigham Young declared it was God Himself who gave him the Adam-God doctrine. Apparently Young’s position on the matter was still an issue with some LDS members; otherwise he would not have had to ask, “How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which is revealed to them, and which God revealed to me — namely that Adam is our father and God…Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or ever will come upon the earth” (Sermon delivered on June 8, 1873. Printed in the Deseret Weekly News, June 18, 1873.) How can a Latter-day Saint maintain this was just Brigham’s opinion when he insisted God gave him the teaching?”

    BY said that Adam-God was “doctrine”. He didn’t back off and say it was just some speculation he was presenting as a theological exercise.


    “Brigham Young places the honest Latter-day Saint on the horns of a dilemma. If the Mormon wishes to claim Young as a true prophet, he must also accept his Adam-God teaching since a true prophet must have a correct theology concerning God (Deut. 13:1-3). If Young’s teaching is not accepted, then the Mormon must conclude that Brigham Young was a false prophet. The Mormon can’t have it both ways.”

    For more link to:

  9. falcon says:

    The aspect that I find most interesting about BY’s Adam-God doctrine is the inclusion of Michael the Archangel as the Ancient of Days:

    We Believe in Our God

    We believe in our God, the Prince of his race,
    The archangel Michael, the Ancient of Days
    Our own Father Adam, earth’s Lord as is plain,
    Who’ll counsel and fight for His children again.

    – Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Sainsts, 11th edition, 1856, by Franklin D. Richards, Apostle, p. 375;

    Sons of Michael, He Approaches

    Sons of Michael, he approaches! Rise, the ancient Father greet;
    Bow ye thousands, low before him; Minister before his feet;
    Hail, hail the Patriarch’s glad reign, Hail, hail the Patriarch’s glad reign
    Spreading over sea and main.

    Sons of Michael, ‘tis his chariot Rolls its burning wheels along!
    Raise aloft your voices million In a torrent power of song;
    Hail, hail our Head with music soft! Hail, hail our Head with music soft!
    Raise week melodies aloft!

    Mother of our generations, Glorious by Great Michael’s side,
    Take thy children’s adoration; Endless with thy Lord preside;
    Lo, lo, to greet thee now advance, Lo, lo, to greet thee now advance
    Thousands in the glorious dance!

    Raise a chorus, sons of Michael, Like old Ocean’s roaring swell,
    Till the mighty acclamation Through rebounding space doth tell
    That, that the Ancient One doth reign, That, that the Ancient One may reign
    In his Paradise again!

    – 1948 LDS hymnal

    This all set off a lot of speculation among the saints and brings into serious question if Mormons can trust their leaders…………………….which they can’t!

  10. cattyjane says:

    You know what? I had never heard the Adam God theory before until I came on this site. If I had than I more than likely would not have joined at all. I can’t believe all of the back flips and twists and turns a persons mind has to make in order to believe in Mormonism. If a person would just understand true scripture better than they would see that it can’t possibly be true. The thing is that all those prophets who preached a false doctrine, they will be judged twice for their teachings. I would hate to be in their shoes.

    Old man,
    I just replied back to you regarding the temple on the earlier posts.

  11. Old man says:

    Thank you catty 🙂

  12. Mike R says:

    This doctrine was bolstered by in a church hymn , in repetitive preaching by the prophet , and
    in the personal testimony ( inner witness ) of sincere LDS , officers and rank and file —-that’s a
    pattern . It’s enough to allow us to see that Brigham Young drifted into error , and sadly did not
    accept correction from the body of apostles under him . Brigham Young’s behavior is’nt that
    unusual for prophets arising in the latter days , the Bible to them is an old ” has been” Standard
    ( Book of Mormon also ) with it’s testimony about God so it needs augmenting by these new prophets . We can read of the gradual drifting away into apostasy by Brigham Young between his
    first preaching about God ( as a Missionary in 1832 ) then to Gods and Goddesses and then to
    his Adam God doctrine . Those in his flock that embraced his false teaching were victims of a
    broken trust , their prophet promised to guard them from inaccurate doctrines —he failed .
    Paul’s words in 2 Tim 4:3-4 are for today , and we see this happen in the lives of the Mormon
    people in Young’s flock .
    Today , the Mormon people need to acknowledge Brigham Young believed and taught false
    doctrine to his flock , it matters not how many embraced it because one is too many .
    The way many influential Mormons through the years have tried to excuse his behavior is
    telling , because some of their alibi’s are nothing short of dishonesty .
    This doctrine , and the way it has been denied , dodged , by Mormons is a very good reason
    why anyone should not join the Mormon church . Mormon leaders can create strange doctrines
    at any time , it’s safer to anchor one’s belief’s about God in the Bible because it’s the bed rock
    of the Christian faith .

  13. falcon says:

    Your point about not joining the LDS church if you had known some of these things particularly “Adam-God” is well taken.
    I’ve often thought there should be a requirement that things like this be disclosed to people before they join a religious organization. It would be like the “truth in lending” laws which protect people from hidden undisclosed charges and hikes in interest rates when they borrow money.
    The LDS church has a built in escape clause claiming that they can’t tell people certain things until they’re ready. It’s simply a tactic used by the LDS church to seduce people into the cult making it more difficult for them to leave.
    What’s gone on with the LDS church leaders is very typical of what cults and aberrant religious groups fall into. It’s all about sex, money and daffy religious doctrines. Smith satisfied his sexual desires by creating his precious doctrine of polygamy. BY became a wealthy man off of his religious connections. Finally, these so called prophets and apostles would dream stuff up and call it revelation no matter how often the wall it was.

    Thank the Lord you have been set free from the influence of this religious cult.

  14. jaxi says:

    Since no LDS person has speaken up yet, I would like to give the response my father gave to me when I tried to talk to him about this subject. He said that I was just confusing terminology. That Adam is being referred to as the father of this world. That when I think it is referring to Adam it isn’t (its referring to Heavenly Father) and when it is referring to Adam it is only referring to him as the father of this world and if we praise him it is because of the great deed he did in the Garden of Eden by allowing us to recieve bodies (something I do take great issue with). I can just see him picking apart any quote I give and telling me that I’m interpreting it wrong. The only quote I think he has a hard time with picking apart is, “our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do.” And to that he would say they just recorded BY wrong. Or maybe he would say something like henis first in the family tree and will be crowned God before all of us and we owe becoming gods to him because of what happened in the Garden of Eden. He rejects that Adam-God was ever taught and that the places where it seems to be taught are just big misunderstandings of what is meant. I can’t get through the wall. Grindeal, is there anything you give people who say thing like that?

  15. falcon says:

    When someone proposes another god, it’s more than idolatry.

    They are literally getting in the face of God and telling Him that they won’t bow to Him but they will have another god of their own choosing. In the case of Mormonism, we have a whole hearted rejection of God and men elevating themselves to His status.
    Cleverly, this is done in such a way as to make it appear that this god of Mormonism, wants those that he has given spirit birth to in a pre-existence, to return to him having fashioned themselves into gods; into his likeness. This Mormon god is the proud papa declaring, “Well done good and faithful servants”.
    This is of course a whole sale manipulation of the Word of God and a perversion of the Gospel message. It does give the Mormon cover, however, presenting God as the author of this scheme; giving His hearty approval and consent of His creation becoming, in a sense, a Creator.
    The devil knows that he couldn’t propose something like this without camouflaging it in a form that would allow those who embrace it to think of themselves as superior in their spirituality and understanding.
    Folks who buy into this sort of perversion are prideful and devoid of any sort of spiritual discernment.
    The more convoluted and perverted a notion, the more they embrace it thinking that it’s their deep understanding that sets them apart from those who reject the message.
    Brigham Young was one of the worst when it came to idle speculation and foolish pronouncements. His Adam-God doctrine was Joseph Smith on steroids.
    We can only hope and pray that God will see fit to remove the spirit of delusion that covers the Mormon people. That God, through His Holy Spirit, will bring the Mormon people to a knowledge of Him and in so doing bring them to repentance, forgiveness and salvation.

  16. falcon says:

    This is a spiritual battle and it has to be waged in the heavenlies through prayer and might I add fasting.
    The walls of resistance can only be broken down by the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul writes in Ephesians about this battle and I take it literally. There are strongholds and forces and diluting spirits. Actually your dad may be closer to being pushed out of the cult than you know.

    I’d be in prayer asking God, through His Spirit, to free your dad from the bondage He is in. These Mormon people actually have spiritual chains binding them. They need to be loosed from this darkness and into the light of Christ.

  17. faithoffathers says:

    For some reason, my posts have not been working.

    So, I will keep it short as a test post.

    Grindael- I see that you provide quotations from Brigham Young that provide a distinction between Elohim and Michael/Adam. That is the crux of the issue. And it is stated within these quotations that Michael or Adam is no Elohim.

    The concepts that Adam is a god and the father of Jesus should not be too controversial given our doctrine on the faithful becoming gods and the fact that Adam was, in fact, the father of Jesus through Mary.


  18. johnnyboy says:

    If we can twist it to mean whatever you claim it to be and that it’s not too controversial, then why is it considered blasphemy by president kimball? He said anyone who teaches this doctrine is wrong. He did not try and excuse or explain it away. He came out and said “it was wrong.”

    You sir, are treading on dangerous ground defending Brighams folly.

  19. MJP says:

    FoF, what does that get you to differentiate Elohim and Adam? I noticed the distinction in the material Grindael presented, but it seems Adam, according, to Young, was to be our God in virtually every sense of the word.

    I am not sure the distinction and differentiation between Elohim and Adam gets you much if Adam is to be our god.

  20. faithoffathers says:

    MJP- the significance of this is is that the critics most often claim that we worship, or at least Brigham Young suggested, that Adam was actual Elohim whom we worship. And that is simply not the case.

    We revere Adam as we do all prophets. And as the first man on earth, we do place significant distinction upon him as the father of the human family. But that is totally different from being “our god.” Even considering the fact that the Doctrine and Covenants states that Adam, with others, has been crowned a god through the atonement of Christ.

    The main point of my post was that Grindael was making a different argument than critics most often do. And I give him credit for that. We do not believe Adam was/is Elohim, our Eternal Father.

  21. johnnyboy says:


    And yet even if you make the distinction, it’s obvious that Brigham young was gradually trying to “erase” that distinction. Hence Pres. Kimball clearly nipping it in the bud.

    Trying to justify Brighams false doctrine is wrong. Adam is not our God. Brigham clearly taught that Adam was “our” God. He was wrong. The end

  22. johnnyboy says:


    Adding to this is the fact that you point out that “some” critics claim we worship Adam as Elohim and that Brigham taught as much. I have never seen that in any real critical sites at all. The only reason you can bodly claim that “this is simply not the case” is due to the fact that the church leaders stopped this teaching from spreading and gaining any legs. Although from the looks of it , they didn’t have to try too hard in convincing people to ditch it. It seems most members back then all replied to Brighams teaching with a loud and boisterous “what the what?!”

  23. Steve9531 says:

    And then, I suppose, Elohim Sr. or ?? is our eternal grandfather. Think I’m starting to get it.

  24. johnnyboy says:


    Haha… exactly. You just have to start redefining your terms. It’s like a certain president said “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”

  25. LWG says:

    Grindale, I worked with Ogden Kraut for a few years. His family still has a web site and sells Mormon Fundamentalist literature. I am going to risk posting a link to a little YouTube video here: This is the portion of the Endowment ceremony that has been presented for over 100 years. Mormon doctrine is clearly presented at the 1:40 minuet mark. Elohim speaks to Jehovia about Michael. Three separate personages. Michael has been a companion and co-creator (Organizer) with Jehovia throughout five Creative Days then on the Sixth Michael becomes Adam. Michael is spoken to, co-creates the Earth, Light, Water, plant life, Animal life and then becomes Adam. This version of the Endowment was written by Brigham Young and has been accepted by every Missionary, Seventy, Apostle and Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. It is impossible to deny that Michael is a God and that Adam was Michel in every Temple Endowment Session. Michael must be considered the fourth member of the Mormon Godhead. This video does not reveal any Names, Signs, or Tokens. There is nothing symbolic about it.

  26. grindael says:


    I see your point, but you are missing one. Brigham Young said that Adam was the Father of all men’s SPIRITS, including Jesus. He is not only the Father of mortal man as being the first man. Brigham taught that Adam was already an exalted man when he went into the Garden of Eden. This is what you are not addressing, and your explanation does not work. The chain of gods according to Young was Michael/Adam (the direct God of this world, the Father of Spirits) – Yahovah (not Christ) – and Elohim, the “grandfather god”. Young also said it did not matter which one we worship because we are all of the same “species”.

  27. jaxi says:


    So we got Elohim, Jehova, Micheal, Holy Ghost. That’s four. And where is Heavenly Mother in all this? Does she count? Or are women just baby making machines like queen ants or soemthing off Aliens. But if its not totally sexist than, That would be five, right? and that’s if there is only one Heavenly Mother, there might be many. So at least 5 or more in the Godhead.
    And if you watch the episode of Polygamy What Love Is This? There is an interesting conclusion about 22 minutes made by a former LDS Bishop that makes the Counsel of Gods or God Head even bigger! So since God is just propagating his own species, where is the start of this mess? Or is it really one eternal round as so many claim and today’s Mormons are really the eventual grandparent of the Heavenly Father?

  28. grindael says:


    Thanks for the reply and link. Brigham Young taught that there were two Godheads. The one from pre-earth, that created the earth, Elohim – Yahovah – Michael/Adam, and the second, Michael, Jesus and the Holy Spirit FOR THIS EARTH. Adam, as a newly exalted God, had his father Yahovah and his grandfather Elohim, help him create this earth. Then, Adam falls and starts the mortal machinery for his spirit children, with Jesus as “Savior” in a long line of Saviors of worlds. Adam and his children, said Young, knew about the “grandfather”, Elohim, who is the one who was in the garden with Adam/Michael after he partook of mortal foods and fell. Jesus, as the Savior and firstborn, inherits this world, that is why Adam (while he was here was subservient to Christ), because Christ will inherit this world and was appointed “Savior” of it, and his father (Adam – the Ancient of Days) turns all over to his firstborn son at the end of the earth cycle. It’s not about seniority, it’s about priesthood keys, and all the keys will be given to Christ FOR THIS EARTH.

  29. johnnyboy says:


    The Holy Ghost is the odd man out in this God party. Poor old Holy Ghost. How come father Adam God, oops I mean grandpa Elohim, couldn’t find a way to let the Holy Ghost get a body like everyone else? Seems like Holy Ghost gets a bum deal in this plan of salvation.

  30. johnnyboy says:

    Get your adam ondi ahman hats on boys and girls!

    @Grindael, I agree with the whole idea of the keys being passed as that has been taught, but couldn’t seniority technically still be part of it seeing as Christ was spiritually the first born?

    Makes you wonder when Lucifer was born spiritually, and where he fits into this. Some have said he was second to Christ in spiritual birth, or possibly even first, but blew his birthright by being a big show off and wanting to hog all the glory.

  31. grindael says:


    The Holy Ghost in Mormonism was a late addition. In Jo’s early teachings he was “the mind of God”. Not a person at all. Jo then reinvented his doctrine to fit him in. This was not all fleshed out until the beginning of the 20th Century, when Jesus was transformed into Jehovah.

  32. Old man says:

    Lucifer as a personage doesn’t exist, the name has arisen due to the mistranslation of a passage in Isaiah. That fact alone is proof that the Biblical passages in the BofM were simply copied from the King James Bible which contained the error. Lucifer isn’t to be found in any modern translation. The person referred to by Isaiah was actually the King of Babylon. If you require any further information I’ll be happy to provide it 🙂

  33. PaleRider says:

    Grindael- Once again you have highlighted some of the key distinctions in Brigham’s theology. I wanted to re-post some citations you posted in the thread “There is a Difference between Truth and Error”, you posted-

    “How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God.” (Deseret News, June 18, 1873.)

    Young explicitly states that Adam God is a REVELATION. He also said,

    “Some years ago, I advanced a doctrine with regard to Adam being our father and God, that will be a curse to many of the Elders of Israel because of their folly. With regard to it they yet grovel in darkness and will. It is one of the most glorious revealments of the economy of heaven, yet the world hold derision. Had I revealed the doctrine of baptism from [sic.] the dead instead Joseph Smith there are men around me who would have ridiculed the idea until dooms day. But they are ignorant and stupid like the dumb as*.” Manuscript Addresses of Brigham Young. Watt, G.D., transcriber, October 8, 1861.

    There is no ambiguity in these plain and straight forward statements, in other words his intent is clear. The original intent of Brigham’s revelation is fundamentally helpful to understanding that what these men taught to their flocks and how their flocks viewed them was just as important to how modern LDS view and interact with their prophets. We know there were disagreements and rebellion against this subject among Brigham and the other ‘seers’ he surrounded himself with e.g. Orson Pratt. So the matter becomes a much deeper issue for the LDS faithful, Brigham Young either is a prophet with the mantle of Priesthood authority or he was a false prophet leading the Mormons into a state of apostasy. Or you can have it both ways like the Mormon apostle Bruce R McConkie explained in a letter of rebuke to former BYU professor Eugene England, it reads in part-

    “…people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us…Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is that Brigham Young, contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works.”

    I think we can let those being led by the Spirit of God to decide who is in error and those abiding in the Truth.

    One other note, there are ‘critics’ attacking the integrity of people on this site, without evidence of dishonesty, that are presenting the other side of the Mormon story. These apologists frequently defend a lot of questionable behavioral patterns of their prophets leading the Mormon people astray yet fail to publicly admit their prophet’s integrity, while it’s clear to many that it is open to criticism. Why is this? The answer, they are masters of cognitive dissonance; those who have broken the chains of that condition are placing their trust in God almighty.

  34. RikkiJ says:


    Would you be able to clarify/explain Prophet Young’s statement:

    “When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do.” (JOD 1:50-51)

    And further on: “It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.” (JOD 1:50-51)

  35. falcon says:

    OK you guys. STOP IT!!!! You’re making my head hurt. Or like James Dean in “Rebel Without A Cause”, “You’re driving me crazy!”
    I need a visual. Something that will let me see the relationships here; arrows, boxes, circles etc.

    The first time I heard this Michael the Archangel business was listening to Ann Wilde in an interview with John Dehlin for “Mormon Stories”. Now that babe knew her Mormonism inside and out and could riff like BB King on his guitar. I believe she was Ogden Kraut’s plural wife. She had a very interesting life story. Here’s the YouTube link to part one of the interview.

    This gal would bury FOF and the rest of the TBMs with her knowledge of Mormonism and unabashed defense of (Mormon) fundamentalism. She thinks the LDS church went into apostasy. In a way, I find these fundamentalist refreshing, nutty, but refreshing.

  36. LWG says:

    Old Man, said: “Lucifer as a personage doesn’t exist,…”
    I would like to clarify the importance of this statement for Endowed LDS and all their leaders. The Endowment Ceremony identifies Lucifer for most of the interaction between Adam and Eve in the Garden and then later in the Lone and Dreary world. But in the exchanges between Elohim and Jehovia in the CK, Lucifer is referred to as Satan as in “We found Satan there… See if Satan is there…Cast Satan out… “It is only after Lucifer confronts Peter the question “Do you have any money?” and the statement “You can buy anything in this world for money!” Then Peter says: Satan, we command you to Depart! Lucifer responds: “By what authority!”
    The Endowment teaches that they are the same person.
    I understand and agree with you about the biblical Lucifer.
    The LDS leaders must follow the Endowment model. If the Brigham Young codified Endowment collapses all authority/keys collapse. Marriages are nullified and Forever Families fall, Culture l and Theology falls. I think the Endowment is the weakest link the LDS are dealing with. It has been exposed for just what it is!
    The entire endowment video is on You Tube search newnamenoah channel. Both English and Spanish.

  37. falcon says:

    Let’s face it, Mormons have their backs against the proverbial wall when it comes to defining just exactly this religious fantasy is. In-other-words, Mormonism is not well defined. So “button-button-whose-got-the-doctrinal button” when it comes to Mormonism?
    I still get a kick out of these Mormon’s who show-up here, telling us we don’t know anything about Mormonism, and then giving their rendition of what (Mormonism) is. It all pretty much sounds like the themes school kids are writing this week titled “How I Spent My Summer Vacation”. In-other-words, it’s pretty much “whatever” as our Mormon posters just fill it all up with their own meaning.
    Hence we get these lame pronouncements about what BY really meant, as if it’s not really plain. But it’s not what the faithful Mormon can fit into their own religious narrative so they shape it to fit their own desires.

    grindael has done a marvelous job with this article and his follow-up comments. I think the Mormon posters would be better off just reading and not commenting. The comments made by the LDS types just exposes their ignorance and their inability to think and process information in a normal fashion.

  38. Tom says:

    So, Adam-God is our God, an exalted man who comes to this planet with one of his exalted, plural wives after creating this planet and sexually begetting all of us spirit children. Then, in the garden he re-enters mortality by eating the forbidden fruit that, what?, he himself forbade? Then, he dies a mortal death a second time, and what? enters the spirit world? God, a fallen, rebellious man? for the second time?

    Along comes Jesus, who is the first to be resurrected, even before the re-moralized Adam-God.

    One question, if Adam-God is our God and the father of our spirits, who, pray tell, had tangible, flesh-and-bone sex with Mary in order to produce Jesus? It couldn’t be Adam-God. He’s dead and awaiting re-resurrection through his son , Jesus.

    falcon, my head hurts, too. And to think I was mesmerized by the Adam/God doctrine when one of our Language Training Mission instructors taught a lesson on it in priesthood meeting to a gaggle of us green missionaries in Provo during the fall of 1973. And he didn’t teach the doctrine as something false or as something from which to protect the church. He taught it as a truth, a deeper truth, that came through the Prophet Brigham Young.

  39. grindael says:


    It is also instructive to read what those that experienced Young’s teachings wrote, like Eliza R. Snow, who I quoted above. Franklin D. and Samuel L. Richards who both edited the Millennial Star in England also affirmed the teaching as did many others that we have records of. It is not a matter of just what Brigham taught, it is also a matter of how it was interpreted by those that heard it. It is what it is. I think it is instructive to reproduce Young’s entire 1873 discourse here, (and a link to the actual Deseret News edition) because it is a brilliant summation of his Adam God doctrine, perfected by over twenty years of teaching it. I have never seen any Mormon Apologist, or any Mormon “apostle” or “prophet” quote it at length. They totally ignore it. This is no “theory” that critics or the Fundamentalists have made up, this is Young’s REVELATION to the Church about God:

    [The first part of Young’s discourse was about the use of liquor]

    I wanted to make a few remarks upon the subject touched upon by my brother, [Joseph] but I shall not have the time. I frequently think, in my meditations, how glad we should be to instruct the world with regard to the things of God, if they would hear, and receive our teachings in good and honest hearts and profit by them. I have been found fault with a great many times for casting reflections upon men of science, and especially upon theologians, because of the little knowledge they possess about man being on the earth, about the earth itself, about our Father in heaven, his Son Jesus Christ, the order of heavenly things, the laws by which angels exist, by which the worlds were created and are held in existence, &c. How pleased we would be to place these things before the people if they would receive them! How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me–namely that Adam is our father and God–I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first woman upon the earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth. I have been found fault with by the ministers of religion because I have said that they were ignorant. But I could not find any man on the earth who could tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith.

    Is it a great mystery that the earth exists? Is it a great mystery, that the world can not solve, that man is on the earth? Yes, it is; but to whom? To the ignorant—those who know nothing about it. It is no mystery to those who understand. Is it a mystery to the Christian world that Jesus is the Son of God, and still the son of man? Yes it is, it is hidden from them, and this fulfils the Scripture—“If our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost,” who have no faith, and who pay no attention to the Spirit of God. These things are called mysteries by the people because they know nothing about them, just like laying hand on the sick. Is it a mystery that fever should be rebuked and the sick healed by the laying of the hands of a man who is endowed with authority from God and has been ordained to that gift? “Oh yes,” say the ignorant, “we know nothing about it,” That is true, but where is the mystery?

    Will the ignorant receive the truth when they hear it? No, they will not, and this is their condemnation, that light has come into the world, and they choose darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. That is the fact in the case. What is the mystery about it? They do not understand invisible things. Ask the wicked, “Do you know anything about the laying on of hands?” “oh yes, such a man”—a man who is wicked in his whole life—“has the art of laying on hands for the curing the tooth—ache, fevers, wounds,” &c.; and now, in fulfillment of the words of the ancient prophet, thousands of people seek unto “wizards who peep and mutter,” &c., but they will not seek unto the living God. I can say to all the inhabitants of the earth that before what is called spiritualism was ever known in America I told the people that if they would not believe the revelations that God had given he would suffer the devil to give revelations that they—priests and people—would follow after. Where did I declare this? In the cities of New York, Albany, Boston, throughout the United States and in England. Have I told the people that as true as God lived, if they would nota hve the truth they would have error sent unto them, and they would believe it. What is the mystery of it?

    The Christian world read of, and think much about, St. Paul, also St. Peter, the chief of the Apostles. These men were faithful to and magnified the priesthood while on the earth. Now, where will be the mystery, after they have passed through all the ordeals, and have been crowned and exalted, and received their inheritances in the eternal worlds of glory, for them to be sent forth, as the Gods have been for ever and ever, with the command–“Make yourselves an earth and people it with your own children?”

    Do you think the starry heavens are going to fall? Do the Christian world or the heathen world think that all things are going to be wrapped up, consumed, and annihilated in eternal flames? Oh fools, and slow to heart to believe the great things that God has purposed in his own mind!

    My brother said that God is as we are. He did not mean those words to be literally understood. He meant simply, that in our organization we have all the properties in embryo in our bodies that our Father has in his, and that literally, morally, socially, by the spirit and by the flesh we are his children. Do you think that God, who holds the eternities in his hands and can do all things at his pleasure, it not capable of sending forth his own children, and forming this flesh for his own offspring? Where is the mystery in this? We say that Father Adam came here and helped to make the earth. Who is he? He is Michael, a great prince, and it was said to him by Eloheim: Go ye and make an earth.” What is the great mystery about it? He came and formed the earth.

    Geologists tell us that it was here millions of years ago. How do they know? Adam found it in a state of chaos, unorganized and incomplete. Philosophers, again, in talking of the development of the products of the earth, for instance, in the vegetable kingdom, say the little fibres grew first, then the larger vegetation. When this preparatory stage was completed then came the various orders of the animal creation; and finally man appeared. No matter whether these notions are true or not, they are more or less speculative.

    Adam came here and got it up in a shape that would suit him to commence business. Father Adam came here, and then they brought his wife. “Well,” says one, “Why was Adam called Adam?” He was the first man on the earth, and its framer and maker. He with the help of his brethren, brought it into existence. Then he said, “I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state, I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery?

    Now for mother Eve. The evil principle always has and always will exist. Well, a certain character came along, and said to Mother Eve, “The Lord has told you that you must not do so and so, for if you do you shall surely die. But I tell you that if you do not do this you will never know good from evil, your eyes will never be opened, and you may live on the earth forever and ever, and you will never know what the Gods know.” The devil told the truth, what is the mystery about it? He is doing it today. He is telling one or two truths and mixing them with a thousand errors to get the people to swallow them. I do not blame Mother Eve, I would not have had her miss eating the forbidden fruit for anything in the world. I would not give a groat if I could not understand light from darkness. I can understand the bitter from the sweet, so can you. Here is intelligence, but bind it up and make machines of its possessors, and where is the glory or exaltation? There is none.

    They must pass through the same ordeals as the Gods, that they may know good from evil, how to succor the tempted, tried and weak, and how to reach down the hand of mercy to save the falling sinner. The Lord has revealed his gospel and instituted its ordinances that the inhabitants of the earth may be put in possession of eternal life. But few of them, however, will accept it. I have preached it to many thousands of them who are naturally just as honest as I am, but through tradition there is an overwhelming prejudice in their minds which debars them of that liberty I have in my heart. They would be glad to know the ways of God, and to know how Jesus is, and to reap the reward of the faithful, if they had the stamina, I will call it, the independence of mind necessary to embrace the truth, to say, “I know this is true, and if there is no other person on the face of this earth who will defend it, I will to the last.” But this is not in their hearts, it is not in their organization, consequently they do not manifest it. What mystery is there about it?

    None whatever. What is the mystery in Jesus being the Son of God and at the same time the son of the Virgin Mary? You know what the infidels say about this, but their words are no worse than the practice of many in the Christian world.

    I do not want to be found fault with, but if I am it is all the same to me. There is no mystery to me in what God has revealed to me, or in what I have learned, whether it has been through Joseph, an angel, the voice of the Spirit, the Holy Ghost or the Spirit of the Lord; no matter how I have learned a thing, if I understand it perfectly it is no mystery to me. It is like making one of these pulpits, or a house like this. This is no mystery to me, I dictated it, and a great many say it is a great piece of architecture to have a single span, so large as this roof and composed of wood that will sustain itself. But it is no mystery to me. I know the strength of the materials and how to place them together. It is no mystery to me to build a temple or a common house. But you take a gentleman or lady who was never beyond the confines of a densely populated city, who never saw wheat grow, and who never saw cattle in the fields, and it is a great mystery to them to see them. Why? Because they never saw such things before, and they know nothing about them; but it is no mystery to those who know all about such things.

    Do you think it any mystery to angels to know how the various organizations are brought on earth? Not the least in the world. There is no mystery in all this to the Gods, no mystery in them to the prophets and apostles whom they send, and to whom they reveal them; it is all plain, everyday common sense, just as much so as with anything else in the world—we understand it.

    Some may say to me, “Why, Brother Brigham, you seem to know it all.” I say, Oh no, I know but very little, but I have an eternity of knowledge before me, and I never expect to see the time when I shall cease to learn, never, no never, but I expect to keep on learning for ever and ever, going on from exaltation to exaltation, glory to glory, power to power, ever pressing forward to greater and higher attainments, as the Gods do. This is an idea that drowns the whole Christian world in a moment. Let them try to entertain it and they are out of sight of land without a ship, and if they had a ship it would have neither sail, rudder nor compass.

    “What,” say they, “God progress?” Now, do not lariat the God that I serve and say that he can not learn any more; I do not believe in such a character. “Why,” say they, “does not the Lord know it all?” Well if he does, he must know an immense amount. No matter about that, the mind of man does not reach that any more than it comprehends the heaven beyond the bounds of time and space in which the Christians expect to sit and sing themselves away to everlasting bliss, and where they say they shall live for ever and for ever.

    If we look forward we can actually comprehend a little of the idea that we shall live for ever and for ever; but you take a rear-sight, and try and contemplate and mediate upon the fact that there never was a beginning and you are lost at once. The present and the future we can comprehend some little about, but the past is all a blank, and it is right and reasonable that it should be so. But if we are faithful in the things of God whey will open up, open up, open up, our minds will expand, reach forth and receive more and more, and by and by we can begin to see that the Gods have been for ever and for ever.

    Some philosophers have tried to reveal the first cause. I would change the position of the whole affair. I would plant my position in the ignorance of man that undertakes to prove or show the existence of a first cause. He had better go to work and prove himself a fool to begin with and then stop, for all his reasonings, arguments and researches with regard to the first cause only prove that he is a fool. Excuse me for this rough expression, perhaps it would be better to say that he comes far short of knowing or understanding himself in the least degree that he is lost in ignorance of himself. Is this the fact? It is. We can know nothing until we learn it, and when we come to a knowledge of facts they are no mystery to us.

    Take one of these native Navajo women down south here into a factory and show her the machinery for weaving blankets, and if she has never seen anything of the kind she would laugh at such nonsense. Says she, “That is not the way to weave blankets, why do you not tie your web up to the limb of a tree, fasten the other end down, and then take a stick and do just so? That will never weave a blanket.” By and by she sees the blanket finished, but it is a mystery to her, and she can not understand anything about it, because she has not learned it. It is so with the whole human family.

    You will excuse me for detaining you a little longer than usual. I wanted to ask the brethren and sisters if they did not think my brother, Joseph Young, pretty good. He is nearly seventy-seven years of age and had a severe sickness last winter. Do you not think he is pretty hale, and doing pretty well? I think he is. I like to see him here. I know that he has been trying to tell the people with regard to the things of God for fifty years past. If I were to live and learn as I have for forty years past—since I have been in this church—for a thousand years, I should only have just commenced to learn the great lesson of eternity.

    I do hope and pray—and I want you to listen how I shape this prayer, instead of praying to my Father in heaven in the name of Jesus to make you and me faithful—I pray that we Latter-day Saints may be faithful to the covenants we have entered into with our Heavenly Father and with one another, and to live our holy religion., for we do know how. I need not ask the Father to make us faithful any more than I need ask him to come and sow our wheat for us, not a particle, for we know all about it. Be faithful, do right and live so as to be worthy of life everlasting. Amen. (Deseret News, Vol. 22, No. 308, June 18, 1873. Brigham Young; discourse delivered in the New Tabernacle, Salt Lake City; Sunday Afternoon, June 8th, 1873. Reported by David W. Evans).

  40. grindael says:

    Young’s teachings were well understood by others. For example, Franklin D. Richards wrote this for the Millennial Star in 1854:

    Concerning the item of doctrine alluded to by Elder Caffall and others, viz., that Adam is our Father and our God, I have to say do not trouble ourselves, neither let the Saints be troubled about that matter. The Lord has told us in a revelation which he gave through the Prophet Joseph, Jan. 19, 1841 — “I deign to reveal unto my Church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fullness of times.” (D&C 124:41) I would like to know where you will find scriptures to prove those things, by which have never before been revealed. Some feel their bounded duty to prove everything which belongs to our faith from the Bible, but I do not, and I will excuse you from all obligation to prove this from the Old Scriptures, for you cannot, if you try. You may bring much collateral evidence from the Bible and other revelations that will dissipate objections, and serve to strengthen the position, but to directly and substantially prove it, as the world requires, and as we can the first principles, it will puzzle you to do it, and from henceforth we may expect more and more of the word of the Lord giving us instructions which are nowhere written in the Old Scriptures. If we feel ourselves, and teach the Saints or the people generally, that we are only to believe that which can be proved from the scriptures, we shall never know much of the Lord ourselves, nor be able to teach the children of men to any very considerable extent. If as Elder Caffall remarked, there are those who are waiting at the door of the Church for this objection to be removed, tell such, THE PROPHET AND APOSTLE BRIGHAM HAS DECLARED IT, AND THAT IS THE WORD OF THE LORD. That is vastly stronger proof than Christendom can give for much that they profess to believe. Tell the Saints that if this stone does not seem to fit into the great building of their faith just now, to roll it aside. You can help them roll it out of their way so that they will be but a short time till they will find a place in their building where no other stone will fit; then it will be on hand all right, and will come into its place in the building without the sound of hammer or chisel. ( Millennial Star, 16:534; Franklin D. Richards, Apostle; June, 1854.)

    Heber C. Kimball taught,

    I will tell you what will be good for us, and it will bestow upon us all the luxuries of this life, of heaven and earth. You are talking about heaven and about earth, and about hell, &c.; but let me tell you, you are in hell now, and you have got to qualify yourselves here in hell to become subjects for heaven; and even when you have got into heaven, you will find it right here where you are on this earth. When we escape from this earth, we suppose we are going to heaven? Do you suppose you are going to the earth that Adam came from? That Eloheim came from? Where Jehovah the Lord came from? No. When you have learned to become obedient to the Father that dwells upon this earth, to the Father and God of this earth, and obedient to the messengers He sends—when you have done all that, remember you are not going to leave this earth. You will never leave it until you become qualified, and capable, and capacitated to become a father of an earth yourselves. Not one soul of you ever will leave this earth, for if you go to hell, it is on this earth; and if you go to heaven, it is on this earth; and you will not find it anywhere else. Is it not hard to bring these truths home to you. (J. D. 1:356; Tabernacle SLC; President Heber C. Kimball; November 14, 1852. See also Life of Heber C. Kimball by Orson F. Whitney, p. 460.)

    Notice that Kimball speaks of us going to other earths, the one, for example that Adam came from, that Eloheim came from, from where Jehovah the Lord came from… and says no, we will not. Those are their earths, not this one. Those are the earths of the Hierarchy of Gods: Adam and the Grandfather God, Eloheim.

    Joseph L. Robinson wrote,

    Attended conference, a very interesting conference, for at this meeting President Brigham Young said thus, that Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized and that Adam and Eve were the natural father and mother of every spirit that comes to this planet, or that receives tabernacles on this planet, consequently we are brother and sisters, and that Adam was God, our Eternal Father. This as Brother Heber remarked, was letting the cat out of the bag, and it came to pass, I believed every word, for I remembered saying to the Brethren at a meeting of High Priests in Nauvoo, while I was speaking to them under the influence of the Spirit, I remarked thus, that our Father Adam had many wives, and that Eve was only one of them, and that she was our mother, and that she was the mother of the inhabitants of this earth, and I believe that also, but behold ye there were some that did not believe these sayings of the Prophet Brigham, even our Beloved Brother Orson Pratt told me he did not believe it. He said he could prove by the scriptures it was not correct. I felt very sorry to hear Professor Orson Pratt say that. I feared least he should apostatize, but I prayed for him that he might endure unto the end, for I knew verily it was possible that great men might fall. I remembered Apostle John E. Page. I saw him take from his pocket a plug of tobacco and bite a mouthful and put it back. It surprised me. I said old chap you will apostatize, but still I really hoped he would not, but he is gone, and I am very sorry for the poor man. (Journal, Oct. 6th, 1854).

    This was easy for these men to understand. And here you see that Orson Pratt did not agree. If Young was teaching something that was innocuous, why would they worry that Pratt would apostatize? Pratt had the same view as Mormons do today, and we see that over and over he was said to be wrong.

    James Beck wrote in 1861,

    Conference Mett in the Tabernacle Bro W. W. Phelps said Joseph Smith said that Eve had 28 sons & 28 daughters & that Adam had many wives–Bro Brigham than got into the stand & stated the same thing. He then gave some instructions in relation to sealing He said that there were many men & women who after having been sealed to each other for time & all Eternity–came to him for a Bill of Divorce. & for the sum of 10 Dollors he gave them a Bill Because the Lord permitted it but it was of no use to them. They might just as well tear off a Peice of their shirt tail or have a Peice of Blank Paper for a Divorce. But on account of the hardness of their hearts, the Lord permitted it, as it was in the days of Moses. But there was a way in which a woman could leave a man lawfully. When a woman becomes alienated in her feelings & affections from her husband-it is then his duty to give her a Bill & set her free which would be fornication for the man to cohabit with his wife after she had thus become alienated from him. The children begotten of such a woman would be Bastards in the true Scriptural term of the word Fornication, for the crime of adultry a woman (& also men) would be stoned to Death & then come up in the morning of the Resurection & Claim all of her rights & Privledges in the marriage covenant. Also there was another way in which a woman could leave a man-if the woman Preferred–another man higher in authority & he is willing to take her, & her husband gives her up-there is no Bill of divorce required in the case it is right in the sight of God. But if he ever after has any connexion with her, he is then guilty of committing a very great sin & will be Punished accordingly. If a Man is faithfull & should his wife leave him & be married to another without his consent there is no Power in heaven or on Earth that can Prevent him from claiming her in the Resurrection. If faithfull a Man will attain to an Adam & the Wife to be an Eve & begat Millions of Spirits who will come forth & receive their Tabernacles upon an earth like this &c- The glory of the Man is the woman, And the glory of the woman is her Virginity-Men are the Lords of Creation & the Responsibility rests upon the man & not upon the woman-all women will be saved after they have sufferred & atoned for their sins & thus satisfied the ends of Justice they will not become angels to the Devil. The Curse Placed upon the woman is that her desire shall be to her husband she shall long & Desire for him & will not wish to be suplanted by another & in sorrow & in Pain she shall bring forth her offspring, if it was not for this curse, the woman would bring forth as easy as she would drink a glass of water. The curse upon the man is that he shall labour to support his family by the sweat of his brow &c & he has to be tormented with thorns & briars sunflowers & all kinds of noxious weeds. Is there any way for a man & his wife to committ sin in the mariage state-there is. It is for us to cultivate the Principles of life which God has Planted in us & not for us to Destroy life by an unlawfull intercourse with each other, but for us to multiply & Replenish the Earth as God has enjoined upon us. Only one man to my knowledge has heard this Read besides myself & that was Bro Campkin [in the] 17th ward. Joseph Smith said that the 2 Prophets who would Prophesy in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 years & a half, were Enoch & Elijh. Also the two wings north & South of our earth were inhabited. the north with the 9-1/2 tribes & the south wing by the People of Enochs City–this Earth when first created occupied a Position next to Kolob the highest in glory of all the Creations consequently on account of the high Position we once occupied we have fallen below all of the others in space–consequently our sufferings are greater–the greater the rise the greater will be the fall-when we are Redeemed we will be taken back again & Placed in our former Position. (James Beck Journal (Notebook) 1859-1865; October 8th 1861. Spelling as in original.)

  41. grindael says:

    One question, if Adam-God is our God and the father of our spirits, who, pray tell, had tangible, flesh-and-bone sex with Mary in order to produce Jesus? It couldn’t be Adam-God. He’s dead and awaiting re-resurrection through his son , Jesus.

    Not so. Young taught,

    I tell you more, Adam is the Father of our spirits. He lived upon an earth; he did abide his creation, and did honor his calling and priesthood, and obeyed his master or Lord, and probably many of his wives did the same, and they lived, and died upon an earth, and then were resurrected again to immortality and eternal life.

    “Did he resurrect himself?” you inquire. I want to throw out a few hints upon the resurrection as it seems to come within the circuit of my ideas whether it ought to come within the circuit of my remarks or not. I believe we have already acknowledged the truth established that no person can officiate in any office he has not been subject to himself and been legally appointed to fill. That no person in this kingdom can officiate in any ordinance he himself has not obeyed; consequently no being who has not been resurrected possesses the keys of the power or resurrection. That you have been told often. Adam therefore was resurrected by someone who had been resurrected.

    I will to a little further with this lest some of you will be querying, doubting, and philosophizing this away. It is true, Jesus said, “I lay down my life that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” I do not doubt the power of Christ; but did he prove that (p. 17) in his resurrection? No. But it is proved that an angel came and rolled away the stone from the door of the sepulcher, and did resurrect the body of the son of God.

    “What angel was this?”

    It is not for me to say. I do not know him. If I ever did know him it is so long since I have entirely forgotten who it was. That Jesus had power to lay down his life, and power to take it up again I do not dispute. Neither do I dispute, but what an angel came, that was sent by the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to role away the stone from the sepulcher, and resurrect the Son of God. Suffice it to say that he was some character who had himself been resurrected.

    “Is there any further proof with regard to this sacred order of the kingdom of God on the earth?”

    O yes, you can find it in all the scriptures. For instance when the Savior appeared to Paul of Tarsus, on the road, in answer to the question, “Lord what will thou have me do,” he was told to go into the City of Damascus, and it should be told him there what to do. In the mean[time] one Ananias was sent to him, who baptized and ordained him. Jesus would not do this, because he had servants on earth whose special duty it was to administer these ordinances.

    Again, the angel that appeared to Cornelius would not operated in the ordinances of the Gospel, but told him to send men to Joppa, to the house of one Simon the Tanner, and call for one Peter, etc., whose duty it was to do it, he being called and ordained to that power. Many more instances of this kind might be quoted but the above will suffice to illustrate the principle.

    Now, many inquiries will be made about the Savior such as, “Who is he?” “Is he the Father of Adam?” “Is he the God of Adam?” When Christ has finished his labor and presented it to his father, then he, Adam will receive (p. 18) a fullness.

    That is all easily understood by me. He cannot receive a fullness of the kingdoms he has organized until they are completed. If he sends his servants off to the right and to the left to perform a certain labor, his kingdom is not complete, until his ministers have accomplished everything to make his kingdom complete and returned home again.

    Many inquire who is this Savior? I will tell you what I think about it, and as the [Westerners] say, “I reckon”, and as the Yankees say, “I guess”; but I will tell you what I reckon.

    I reckon that Father Adam was a resurrected being, with his wives and posterity, and in the Celestial kingdom they were crowed with glory, immortality, and eternal lives, with thrones, principalities, and powers: and it was said to him it is your right to organize the elements; and to your creations and posterity there shall be no end, but you shall add kingdom to kingdom, and throne to throne; and still behold that vast eternity of unorganized matter.[31] Adam then, was a resurrected being; and I reckon our spirits and the spirits of all the human family were begotten by Adam, and born of Eve.

    “How are we going to know this?” I reckon it.

    And I reckon that Adam came into the Garden of Eden, and did actually eat of the fruit that he, himself planted; and I reckon there was a previous understanding, and the whole plan was previously calculated, before the Garden of Eden was made, that he would reduce his posterity to sin, misery, darkness, wickedness, wretchedness, and to the power of the devil, that they might be prepared, for an exaltation, for without this they could not receive one. (Young, Conference Address, October 8, 1854).

  42. grindael says:

    In 1877 Young related this teaching to L. John Nuttal, to be used at the Veil Lecture,

    Wed 7 At Temple. I officiated as Recorder at the font – palso [sic] in the Sealing Room in anointing where Josiah Guile Hardy & his wife Ann Denston Hardy – had their 2 anointing [p. 20] also Mathew Clayton – also Sarah Johnson Macdonald anointed to A F Macdonald his wife Elizabeth Graham McD. as proxy – rpFanny [sic] Van Cott Macdonald was also anointed to A. F. Mcdonald – W. Woodruff anointing. H. W. Bigler held the horn. 386 Baptizms. J. L. Smith – D. H. Cannon confirmed 185. A. H Raleigh 61. H. W. Bigler 77. D. D. McArthur 63 – wrote to my wife Elizabeth & son Leonard – after supper went to President Youngs present. Prest Young. W. Woodruff. E. Snow. B. Young Jr. I. G. Bleak. E. M Greene & myself. works in the Temple being under consideration Prest Young was filled with the spirit of God & revelation & said when we got our washings and anointings under the hands of the Prophet Joseph at Nauvoo we had only one room to work in with the exception of a little side room or office were we were washed and anointed had our garments placed upon us and received our New Name. and after he had performed these ceremonies. he gave the Key Words signs, tokens [sic] and penalties. then after we went into the large room over the store in Nauvoo. Joseph divided up the room the best that he could hung up the veil, marked it gave us our instructions as we passed along from one department to another giving us signs. tokens. penalties with the Key words pertaining to those signs and after we had got through. Bro Joseph turned to me (Prest B Young) and said Bro Brigham this is not arranged right but we have done the best we could under the circumstances in which we are placed, and I [p.21] Thur. 8 at the Temple officiated as Recorder [sic] wish you to take this matter in hand and organize and systematize all these ceremonies with the signs. tokens penalties and Key words I did so and each time I got something more so that when we went through the Temple at Nauvoo I understood and Knew how to place them there. we had our ceremonies pretty correct –

    In the creation the Gods entered into an agreement about forming this earth. & putting Michael or Adam upon it. these things of which I have been speaking are what are termed the mysteries of godliness but they will enable you to understand the expression of Jesus made while in Jerusalem. This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. We were once acquainited [acquainted] with the Gods & lived with them but we had the privilige of taking upon us flesh that the spirit might have a house to dwell in. we did so and forgot all and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned. We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve. how they were formed &c some think he was made like an adobie and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life. for we read “from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return” Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this earth. he was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth. Adam was an immortal being when he came. on this earth he had lived on an earth similiar to ours [p. 22] he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. and when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in. and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this Kingdom our earth he came toil. and slept and forgot all and became like an Infant child. it is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve-this should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other Men had the seed within him to propagate his species. but not the Woman. she conceives the seed but she does not produce it. consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father. this explains the mystery of Mose’s dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve. Adam & Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal beings with flesh. bones and sinues. but upon partaking of the fruits of [p. 23] the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal beings with the blood coursing through their veins as the action of life= Adam was not under transgression until affter he partook of the forbidden fruit this was nesesary that they might be together that man might be. the woman was found in transgression not the Man- Now in the law of Sacrifice we have the promise of a Savior and man had the privilege and showed forth his obedience by offering of the first fruits of the earth and the firstlings of the flocks- this as a showing that Jesus would come and shed his blood.

    [Four lines without any writing on them.] Father Adam’s oldest son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family is Father Adams first begotten in the spirit World. who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. (In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit World. and come in the spirit to Mary and she conceived for when Adam and Eve got through with their Work in this earth. they did not [p. 24] lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit World from whence they came.

    I felt myself much blessed in being peraitted [sic] permitted to Associate with such men and hear such instructions as they savored of life to me-(Diary of L. John Nuttal, February 7, 1877).

  43. johnnyboy says:


    The whole “who resurrected who” speech is so mind bogglingly retarded that I am literally sitting in front of my computer with my mouth gaping open at it’s utter stupidity.
    WHAT THE WHAT????????????????????????

    Wow… I never have read that quote. This goes WAY beyond what I even imagined adam god doctrine to be. And it’s all said with the condescending tonality of “I KNOW MORE THAN YOU-OOOH… NEENER, NEENER, NEENER!”

    Gimme a freaking break people!

  44. Rick B says:

    I love how lds are always saying we misquote everything and we are cluless. So where are the lds? They know we are correct on this and they cannot defend it, so they don’t reply and choose to believe what they want. This is just like the four part trinity topic. They also avoided that and when I asked why, they said, its not a topic we care about.

  45. falcon says:

    Maybe I missed it but when did the Mormon god Adam/Michael the Archangel/Ancient of Days, “beget” Jesus in the pre-existence? Did he do it before he came to earth as Adam or after?
    I told you guys, I need a visual, a flow chart with each of the players defined and their roles.

    You know I think what guys like BY did was start mentally meandering and got so entangled in their own web of convoluted thinking that pretty soon they just threw-up their hands and claim that the listeners just didn’t get it!
    But on thing is for sure, this was Mormonism of that era. That’s why when Mormons start to explore it they either just ignore it, to save their sanity and faith in the Mormon system or wonder why these plain and precious truths are no longer viable?
    That’s what happened to Ann Wilde who at one point of her life was the Secretary to the president of BYU. This goes back to the 1950s by my calculation. She came to see that the current day LDS church had gone into apostasy because it tubed these “truths”.
    So my point, that I made in another post; can anyone identify real Mormonism and the real restored gospel? The SLC LDS, Community of Christ, Church of Christ and the FLDS are all totally different animals. They can’t all have the Mormon truth.
    For my money, the SLC LDS isn’t even in the ball game. They don’t know where they’re at wanting badly to hold on to some hybrid version of Mormonism while at the same time trying to pretend that they are Christians. What they are is a religious corporation that’s a cash cow that depends on keeping its members ignorant and submissive.

  46. falcon says:

    Many years ago I was exposed to the teachings of the Word of Faith movement.
    I’d read their literature, look in the Bible and couldn’t figure out how they were getting their “techniques” for application of faith from the Bible verses they quoted. In addition to this, they teach many aberrant views of the nature of God that are totally unBiblical.
    Well this lead me into almost a fanatical study of basic Christian doctrine. That led me into being interested in Christian apologetics as it applied to aberrant heretical groups like the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses.

    When I look at our topic here, BY’s “Adam-God” doctrine, I don’t have to get passed much more than a sentence or two to see how totally nuts (BY) was. A person wouldn’t have to be too steeped in understanding Christian doctrine to determine that Young was a religious loose cannon.

    Why these SLC LDS folks don’t see it is beyond me. They are basically paying 10% of their income for the “privilege” of doing a whole lot of work within the Mormon temples to garner for themselves something that doesn’t exist.
    They wouldn’t even have to do a “compare and contrast” study of the differences between their religion and Biblical Christianity to call their faith into question. All they’d have to do is a study of Mormonism and the various doctrines of the various sects of this movement to see that something isn’t right.

  47. Brewed says:

    BY was an evil, evil man.
    We lived in St George for five years (apparently named after BY’s good friend). We went out to the Mountain Meadows Massacre site one day, and it sent me on a search into who BY was and what role he had in the entire thing. This uncovered many other horrible things about the man. Like Castrating young men, poisoning water holes, the “bee hives”, and when things went sour, he lied about it all. He was a full fledged tyrant. I am honestly not positive about how true some of the stuff is but after learning about his behavior in many other instances I would not be surprised.
    So lets name a University after him…

  48. MJP says:

    I don’t know if Young was evil, but I do think he was manipulative, and that he clearly taught Adam was our god in every sense of the word.

    The LDS reaction to his teaching is in line with about everything else I have seen from the LDS addressing controversial positions in the past: deny it, excuse it, ignore it, sweep it under the rug. Young, to present LDS, could not have meant that Adam is our god in every sense of the word. It’s just not possible. Yet, his words are clear. It takes some mental contortions to work around them.

    Alas. LDS are loyal and dedicated. That’s noble. But I wonder at what point does a red flag start to go up for many of these people? At what point will they start to see something wrong?

  49. grindael says:

    I told you guys, I need a visual, a flow chart with each of the players defined and their roles.

    Hey Falcon, I asked my friend Bart P. (Of Mormon Infographics) to help with a chart. Perhaps we can both work something up.


    The resurrection part of the Adam God doctrine by Young is one of the things that is little known by Mormons. I tried to bring this up to FOF, (months ago) but you know how that went. Jesus did not have power to resurrect himself according to Mormonism, (Brigham is right here), because no one can exercise the keys to something that they don’t have. Mormons will claim that their religion is “progressive” but then only apply that selectively. As you see, Franklin D. Richards, states emphatically that there are “truths” that just aren’t in the Bible. Aren’t found anywhere in Mormon “scripture” and are unverifiable. But this is not enough for Mormons today, and yet they will acknowledge that this is ok when it is Jo Smith who gave them. If Young had the “keys” then Young had the right to give revelation for the church and he knew it. In the October 8, 1854 discourse Young also said,

    The inquiry will arise, among those who are strenuous, and tenacious for the account given by Moses, as to Adam.

    “Did not Adam die.”

    Yes he died.

    “Does not the Bible say he died.”

    I do not know nor care, but I think it would be hard I think to find where he died; or where Moses died though I have no doubt Moses died, and Adam also; how? just as you and I have to die, and be laid away in the bowels of Mother Earth; that, however, Moses did not see fit to tell us.

    He had fleshed this out by 1877 and said that Adam and Eve “returned to the Spirit World”, so that Adam could father Jesus. Think about it. Can any Mormon baptize anyone who has not been baptized by one with Priesthood Authority and then been given the authority to so so? No. It is the same with the resurrection of the dead. This takes it out of the hands of Christ and puts it back in the realm of PRIESTHOOD. This is what I have said all along, that Mormon PRIESTHOOD TRUMPS ALL THE GODS, because they cannot function without it. It is their LAW. They must bow down to the LAW of the PRIESTHOOD. Just as, (according to Young, a bona fide Mormon “prophet”), the gods are ALWAYS PROGRESSING and do not have “all knowledge” they also must have and attain certain “keys” to operate. These are conferred as a bridge to “exaltation”. Young also said,

    When you get your resurrection, you are not yet exalted, but, by and by, the Lord Jesus Christ, our Elder Brother, the Savior of the world, the heir of the family, when he has put down Satan and destroyed death, then he will say, come let us go home into the presence of the Father. What will become of the world then? It will be baptized with fire. It has been baptized with water, and it will then be cleansed by fire, and become like a sea of glass, and be made Celestial; and Jesus Christ, our Elder Brother, will take the whole earth, with all the saints, and go with them to the Father, even to Adam; and you will continue to receive more and more intelligence, glory, exaltation, and power. (ibid, above)

    If you think the Mormon Priesthood on earth is complicated, then think of billions of these gods, each in varying degrees of “exaltation” running around the time continuum. These are principles that Mormons love to say their “prophets” know nothing about, but that Young said, “was no mystery to me”. Why are they not forthcoming now? They wouldn’t dare. It would expose just how different Mormonism is to Christianity. Jesus is just another “Savior” to a world where there are countless others and each FIRSTBORN to each new “god” must submit to becoming one, to die a horrible death to save each world because each “god” has to fall to start up the exaltation mechanism. Why? Because it has always been done that way, just like there is no “first cause” or first “god”. If you don’t accept this, then as Young said, You are ignorant like the dumb as*.

  50. johnnyboy says:


    Now that this doctrine is laid plainly before the true blue mormons on here, it’s impossible for them to deny it. Even with Mormon justification it remains difficult to go against what Brigham says regarding the subject. Hell, he even quotes JESUS and tries to explain that the lord was wrong when he said he could raise himself. That takes some major MAJOR balls. Like beehive sized balls.

    I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the priesthood. I have always understood it to mean that God was constrained by the priesthood. I am amazed at any mormon who believes otherwise or argues that mormonism doesn’t teach this. It does. It is clearly taught in sunday school and gospel doctrine classes. I have heard it taught throughout my life. The funny thing is Joseph Smith for some reason went against this order of keys when he baptized himself and Oliver without having the authority to do so. UH OH! time for a re-do! Whats great is some apologist would rationalize this by thinking ” SEE! joseph realized his fault.. and was re-baptized under the proper authority. The church is true!”

    I completely thought that God being subservient to the Law of the Priesthood was perfectly fine and in accordance with the Gospel. The thought never occurred to me that this was blasphemy in any way. This is the kind of mental trickery I don’t have to do to myself anymore.

Leave a Reply