A few weeks ago Larry Richman at LDS Media Talk (“not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”) brought up the persistent question, “Are Mormons Christian?” After having affirmed that Mormons say they are Christians, and having provided some reasons to support that position, Mr. Richman wrote,
“In recent decades, however, some have claimed that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a Christian church.”
I don’t know if Mr. Richman meant his statement to convey the idea that Mormonism’s designation as a non-Christian religion is something relatively new — only asserted in recent decades — or not, but that’s how his claim sounded to me. If that’s what he meant, Mr. Richman was wrong.
While not specifically stating that Mormonism was not Christian, in the late 1800s Baptists missionaries to Mormons described the Mormon religion with statements like these:
“But why does Utah, why does this Eden of Salt Lake City, so especially need the gospel? Because, as in that Eden of old, the trail and the slime of the serpent are there, and no one but the ‘man child,’ ‘the seed of the woman who should bruise the serpent’s head’ by the power of the gospel, can destroy this work of Satan.” (Rev. S. Graves, The Baptist Home Mission Monthly, quoted here.)
“Mormonism is a strange compound of Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism; of saintliness, sensuality, and superstition; of the devout and the diabolical. It is not all evil. A system all evil couldn’t have the power and hold this has. There is enough of good with the evil to make it a masterpiece of the deceiver.” (ibid.)
“ . . . much has been said and written of late concerning the religious condition of Utah, but only by personal contact and observation can we truly appreciate the appalling evils of Mormonism. Only as we try to win its adherents to the truth can we measure the intensity of the fanaticism. Their system combines in one strong bond almost every evil that can control a soul. The basest passions, the strongest prejudices, the densest ignorance, all oppose the entrance of truth. “ (Rev. Richard Hartley, The Home Mission Monthly, quoted here.)
“Salt Lake City has a population of 25,000, and of this number, from 18,000 to 20,000 are Mormons. Of course so great a preponderance in point of numbers gives to the Mormon Church a growing influence. Everything large and grand is Mormon. The large banks, stores, school and Sunday congregations are Mormon.
Mormons make the laws, collect the taxes, try the criminals, and manage the schools. And what is this Mormon power? Are its heart-beats in sympathy with our institutions? Are its teachings and practices in keeping with American ideas? No, it is a despotism in the heart of a republic, a hierarchy in the midst of a free church, and a form of Oriental barbarism in the lap of Christian civilization. Organized upon falsehood, its columns filled from the ranks of ignorance and superstition, and led on by artful and cunning priests, and tolerates practices worthy of Tartars and Turks.” (Rev. D. Spencer, The Home Mission Monthly, quoted here.)
Baptists didn’t think too highly of Mormonism 120 years ago. But they weren’t the only ones. Also in the late 1800s Rev. R.G. McNiece, who had pastored the First Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City for twenty years, wrote,
“The Mormon System is thoroughly anti-Christian…Mormonism is a deliberate counterfeit of the Christian religion, intended to deceive the ignorant…Mormonism tries to palm off on the world a counterfeit Bible…Mormonism imposes upon the people a counterfeit priesthood…Mormonism imposes upon the people a counterfeit group of apostles” (Mormonism: Its Origin, Characteristics, and Doctrines, quoted here.)
And at a General Conference in 1898 Mormon Apostle Abraham O. Woodruff noted:
“I have in my pocket a slip of paper clipped from the Portland Oregonian of March 28th, giving the opinion of one Mr. Stone, the secretary of the Young Men’s Christian association. His comments are very much of the character I have mentioned. He says that the Mormons who have been members of his association have not been permitted to vote or hold office because they are not considered as Christians.” (Conference Report, April 1898)
Twenty years earlier, in 1877, Brigham Young acknowledged that non-Mormons in America did not view Mormons as redeemed Christians but rather as a people needing to hear God’s truth:
“You will probably have what is called a Christian Church here; they will not admit that we are Christians, but they cannot think us further from the plan of salvation as revealed from heaven than we know them to be, so we are even on that ground, as far as it goes.” (Journal of Discourses 14:196)
From Brigham Young’s remark it is evident that “some have claimed that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a Christian church” for at least thirteen of the past “recent decades.” But if we look across the pond to England where Mormons were proselytizing in 1838, we find this from “An Impartial Observer”:
“I cannot, without deep regret, witness the counteracting influence of certain heresies and dogmas which are now so industriously propagated, chiefly among the more illiterate portion of the inhabitants… the Mormonites introduce themselves under the specious pretence of superior sanctity and religious knowledge, and by this means artfully contrive to pass off a base counterfeit for genuine Christianity.” (Preston Chronicle, 18 August 1838, quoted in The Guardian, 24 July 2012.)
For no fewer than seventeen and a half decades non-Mormons have expressed publicly that Mormonism is not genuine or authentic Christianity. Any suggestion that this is a recent development is mistaken.
It has been my observation that in more recent years, inclusivism, political correctness, and an extensive LDS PR campaign has resulted in many, whether by design or error, claiming Mormonism is Christian – even though Mormonism continues to embrace the same heretical doctrines that earned it the epithet “counterfeit Christianity” over one hundred seventy-five years ago.
Actually this is a pretty easy question to answer. Just set a criteria by which to judge whether or not a religion could be considered Christian. In fact, we could have an orthodox Christian and a orthodox Mormon set their own criteria and then compare them, to start.
First of all, we’d have to define what an orthodox Christian is and then what an orthodox Mormon is. With Christianity that’s pretty easy because there are a basic set of criteria already established that most denominations going by the label “Christian” sign on-to.
But with Mormonism, who is an orthodox Mormon? Is it the LDS bunch out of SLC? Is it the many varieties of the FLDS? Is it the Community of Christ or the Temple Lot Mormon groups? It’s no small task to identify an orthodox Mormon.
The fail safe position of the SLC bunch is to say they are Christian because they have the name “Jesus Christ” in their title so therefore they are Christian.
I think a better way to approach this is to start right at the beginning and define who each group believes that God is. Related to this would be to define who Jesus is. We could add to our list the view of the Bible, the Virgin Birth, the path to salvation, the Final Judgement, and the Second Coming of Christ.
For my money, it’s pretty tough for Mormons to say they are Christians when they don’t recognize the God of the Bible and for whom Jesus is not God incarnate but the spirit off-spring of one of the multiple gods of Mormonism and one of his many plural wives.
This is not Christianity. This is a religion that, as the article states, borrows from several different sources foremost among them is the fertile and mis-guided imaginations of those called Mormon prophets.
I am no a believer in the PC movement and am not a PC person. I tell it like it is and I know that bothers many people, even believers, but Read the Bible, Jesus and the Disaplies also told it like it was and is.
Simply put, Mormonism is NOT CHRISTIAN. I love it when Mormons claim they are Christians and believe the Bible, But then if I say, well then, if your Christian, I am and can call myself a Mormon. Then Mormons get all bent out of shape and claim I cannot say that and do that. Really? It stands to reason and your logic, that if you claim to be Christian and believe what I believe, then I must believe what you belive and I’m a Mormon.
Sadly Mormons come here all the Time and throw the Bible under the Bus, claim it is in error, it’s lacking, missing things etc. But when I ask, How come no LDS prophet has ever gone to the Lord in prayer and asked for all the Problems to be set straight by Him for us, we either never get an answer as to why, or we here, They did and we have the J.S.T of the Bible.
But the J.S.T of the Bible is so flawed and full of problems that many LDS dont trust it or use it, or only use very select parts. Also LDS claiming to be Christian have a very strong set of narrow minded set of double standarads. Here are some examples.
LDS belive in Many Gods,
LDS believe they can become gods
LDS believe the Bible is flawed or missing parts
So here is what Christains believe
Christians believe in ONE GOD ONLY (Trinity)
Christians believe we can NEVER BE A GOD or Gods
Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God and is not missing parts or flawed.
So if we have such differing beliefes on even a few small points, and many more could be listed for contrast, then how can we believe the same things to the point LDS can claim they are christan but I cannot claim to be LDS?
How come LDS can claim o be Christian, but other “LDS” Groups that claim to believe the BoM and J.S as their prophet, such as the RLDS or the FLDS cannot be called Mormon by the SLC mormons?
These are serious double standards.
Sadly Mormons are leading many people to eternal Damnation and refuse to talk about these issues, and run away when confronted with the truth. Look at the lack of replies from Mormons that post here, Like FoF for example.
This was my favorite quote from the post, “Mormonism is a strange compound of Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism; of saintliness, sensuality, and superstition; of the devout and the diabolical. It is not all evil. A system all evil couldn’t have the power and hold this has. There is enough of good with the evil to make it a masterpiece of the deceiver.” I run into so many LDS friends and family that say things like “but look at the good.” I want to say “and what? Ignore the bad???” Is the good just a distraction from the bad or the wrongs? I would say it was for me.
This topic is near to my heart. Are Mormons Christian? When I was Mormon I would have identified myself as Chrisitian and been totally insulted by those who said I was not. That is one reason why I don’t like to tell Mormons that they are not Christian. Because I know that once something like that is said, immediate walls go up and they don’t listen any more. I wouldn’t.
The problem is that most Mormons have no idea what the nature of God is in the Christian faith. They think they do. I was taught the Trinity from many LDS people. When I finally left Mormonism and had to ask myself, “okay, who is God? Maybe I should give this Trinity doctrine a chance and really look into it.” That is when the light bulbs went on and I said “of course! How could I have believed in that Zues-like deity in Mormonism, when this God, the real God, has always been there!”
Mormons think that the only requirements to be Christian are that you believe in a Christ that you can pull from scripture, no matter the interpretation, and that you hold to Christian values. That is where the word Christian gets lost in translation. If you say, “you are not Christian,” they think, “but I believe in Christ, and hold to his moral teachings!” You can try to explain further that that is not enough but you’ve already lost them.
I personally try to talk about the nature of God with Mormons without using the word Trinity. That’s another hot word. Once you say Trinity, every false teaching and mocking phrase they learned from childhood comes to them, and you’ve lost them. I say this from experience. The Trinity was something to scoff at. Lord have mercy on me. (Not all Mormons may feel this way but in my experience few understand what the true teachings on the Trinity are, and a large number think its ridiculous.) even just the other day I was talking to my sister, and ex Mormon agnostic, and we were talking about the type of God she believed in how she could never believe in God. I said, “the type of God you believe in is very similar to mine and the god you are saying you don’t believe in is the Mormon God.” Right now she is learning about the Trinity and giving the doctrine a chance. Please pray for her that she will find God in her journey.
The biggest pull for Mormons to be considered Christian is so that they can have a bridge to getting people into their Church. It much easier to present themselves as just another Christian faith and then slowly add their strange teachings. The frog in boiling water scenario. But if they are viewed as an outsider, something like the Muslim religion, then it will be much harder to get into people’s doors.
The problem is that Christianity is a word. Words have meanings. Christianity has been defined for hundreds and hundreds of years. Mormons want to come along and change the defintion, just as they have for many other Christian words. My other sister, another exMormon, is having a very hard time switching to a Christian faith, mainly because of not knowing Chriatian vocabulary. She knows the Mormon words, and the Mormon definitions. The right thing for Momons to have done was to come up with new words if their definitions don’t match the original word and defintion. But I guess if they did that, the deception would be obvious. If Mormons don’t like the definition of Christian that has been held for hundreds of years, than come up with a new word. Like, Mormon maybe. If you don’t want to be Mormon, then come up with something else. But then I guess Mormons wouldnt have the ability to be chameleons if they can’t hijack Christian words. You think the lizard is one color but slowly it changes.
It’s like when FOF says, “I believe that salvation is only through Christ.” Wow, that sounds so Christian. But what does salvation mean? Who is Christ? Once you look at how different the meaning of the those words are between Christianity and Mormonism, you see you are talking about two very different things. More apples and oranges.
God gives us this example of his absolute truth in creation: In geometry, the reflexive property says x = x. “Christian” must equal “Christian” in value and substance. If it doesn’t, then a clear line must be drawn to differentiate between the two values. When I visited with Mormon missionaries and this issue came up, I told them I refer to them as “restored Christians” and myself as a “traditional Christian.” They were completely content with this answer, and I’m fine with it too, because it clearly says, “These two are not the same.” It is then up to the individual to inquire as to what the differences are.
What I think Mormons, specifically those associated with the LDS and FLDS sects, should do is say that they are the “real” Christians. Then they should defend why they are the “real” Christians. Where would they start? Living prophet? That’s not going to make it because all sorts of religions claim a living prophet. Special revelation? Nope, sorry, already taken. Countless groups have claimed special revelation. The priesthood? Naw, that won’t do it. That whole priesthood argument is easily debunked as there is no tradition in the Christian faith for what Mormons are specifically claiming regarding a priesthood. Besides, read First Corinthians chapters 12 and 14 and you will get a good view of how God, through His Holy Spirit, equips the church for works of service.
But, it would be a good way for Mormons to try and draw a distinction between Mormon christian and orthodox christian. That way people would have full knowledge of what Mormonism is all about instead of supposing that it’s just another brand name in the Christian family.
When I read “Mormonism is a strange compound of Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism…” I realized really that it is. Fascinating.
When I was a new member in the 80s the youth in my stake were taught to be proud that the Mormons were a “peculiar people.” There was no talk then of trying to blend into mainstream Christianity. It seems to have shifted when church members started runnning for the presidency of the USA.
This is crazy to me. While growing up LDS, I never once wanted to be called Christian. Christians were those who belonged to the whore of all the earth and her harlot daughters (Catholic church and Protestantism) We were Latter Day Saints or Mormons but don’t lump us in with Christians! Just more PR from the corporation.
It does bother me when LDS missionaries stand on my doorstep and tell me that Mormonism and Christianity are the exact same thing. They pale a little when I tell them that I was LDS for 40 years and that is not true. This is how they deceive people into converting to Mormonism. Something is wrong when missionaries have to blatantly lie to get people to be baptized. No wonder convert retention rates are so low. People realize that Mormons aren’t Christians after all.
Does it really matter if Mormons get a buzz off of calling themselves Christians? In the large scheme of things I think the topic is a good one as a starter of a discussion leading to examining the differences between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity.
I would agree with Jaxi that the term “trinity” would be a real non-starter with a Mormon. That would take a mega-explanation. A Mormon might not be ready to hear that. HAY! Milk before meat, right?
Kate always gives us a good explanation for various assumptions within Mormonism as regards Christianity. The fact of the matter is that the average Mormon, raised in the LDS faith, really doesn’t know anything about Christianity. Shamefully, many Christians don’t know anything about Christianity. I had the advantage of attending a parochial school through the elementary grades so I got a good indoctrination, albeit Catholic in nature. Funny thing though, I look back at the Catholic catechisms I have here and there is a lot of good basic Christian doctrine contained there in.
Now granted, there’s a whole bunch of stuff I don’t ascribe to, but none-the-less I learned how to block and tackle, to borrow a football analogy (it’s the play offs, cut me some slack).
I guess I would ask a Mormon to define for me what a Christian is and then I’d enter into a discussion regarding the most fundamental of all doctrines; who is God?
Jaxi made some excellent comments about this issue . It’s important to not tell a Mormon that
he or she is not a christian because that will usually result in the conversation immediately
going south thus significantly hindering us from presenting the true gospel to them . It does’nt
have to be that way , especially if we find ourselves under time constrains such as when we
meet a Mormon on our doorstep or at certain social functions etc .
When those in the church I fellowship at , or when any non Mormon asks me about Mormonism
I inform them that Mormon leaders have attacked our beliefs consistently from their very
beginning , that we are part of what constitutes the church of the Devil in these last days , and
that our worship is severely flawed and our baptisms are not accepted by God , and that
Mormon leaders claim to be the only true officers in Jesus’ church today . I also inform them
that the Mormon church has a very polished P. R. Dept that knows how to present it’s doctrines
to the public .
Are Mormons christian ? Yes —- according to how the common dictionary might define the
term , and it seems that is what many Mormons want to use to prove their point of being
a christian .
I personally don’t believe that everyone one who sits in a local Mormon Ward on Sundays
is not saved . I have to be careful when talking to individual Mormons to ask questions
of them about their beliefs and not judge them because they may be new members etc .
But these Mormons need to know that they are obligated to take the time to find out what
their leaders have taught about God , Jesus, salvation , beyond what they were presented with
when taking the Missionary lessons . We must remind them of this obligation in the light of
Jesus’ warning in Matt 24:11 , and Paul’s Gal 1:8 . Good counterfeits are just that —good , and
thus can easily fool sincere people who have a desire to know and follow God .
Sincere people get misled every day by the “counsel” of some doctors , or car salesmen , or
lawyers . This danger is also real for those who trust religious leaders , especially those
claiming to be prophets today. This is why those new to Mormonism or those considering
joining are wise to do as Jesus’ true apostles advised —test those who claim to be prophets
1 Jn 4:1-6 , making a earnest effort to evaluate their teachings in light of what Jesus’ apostles
taught .
Has anybody remember when it started Mormons had horns ?
When i joined back in 1975, i had heard that, wondered when it started .
That sounds like a Christian doesn’t it ?
Ironman
“……..I read comments on an LDS discussion board by Mormons who were debating whether or not evangelicals really believe this. I have never personally heard anyone seriously believe Mormons have horns. When I was LDS, it was rumored that in some Christian circles there were those who actually believed Mormons have horns; however, since becoming a part of the Christian community I have never heard anyone make that assertion. Whether or not this myth was was ever circulated as a genuine concern about Mormons, I couldn’t say.”
http://www.equippingchristians.com/Myths-About-Mormons.php
Mormon Coffee Jan. 2008…………by Sharon L.
http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/do-mormons-have-horns/
Considering the claims made by the men who direct the Mormon church , and through whom
it’s doctrines are established , the questions needing answers are : ” Is the Mormon church the
one true church of Jesus ” or ” Is Mormonism Christianity ? ”
This might make it easier to answer the question : ” Are Mormons Christian? ” At least it has
helped me with this question .
No, they are not Christian. At least not the same Christian as we are. Beyond ascribing power to a Jewish carpenter some 2000 years ago living around Jerusalem, wherein this man died on a cross to provide a way to salvation, there is little in common between the Mormon Christ and a Christian’s Christ. The emphasis on the cross is telling in and of itself. Further, the mode of salvation is greatly different, the nature of the man Christ is greatly different, what, precisely, Christ did for us now is greatly different, and a host of other differences create such different Jesus’ such that they take on different personages.
Nonetheless, it is far easier for the Mormon to look at the superficial similarities and state we worship the same Jesus.
It is very telling and interesting that what was probably Christ’s greatest sermon- The Sermon on the Mount- does not support what apostate Christianity insists upon about a person being a “Christian.”
This sermon is found in Matthew chapters 5 through 7. In this sermon, we do not find any of the arbitrary, superficial, theological criteria or boundaries that you guys like to throw at LDS. You find nothing about abstract theological affirmations or constructs in this sermon. What we find are those things that Christ outlines for people who wish to follow Him, or to be Christians. It is all about doing. It is about following the higher law of morality, mercy, humility, and avoiding behaviors and the motive behind behaviors that seeks to be recognized by other people. Loving neighbor and enemy, seeking after righteousness, forgiving trespasses, going an extra mile, avoiding lust, giving with real intent, praying and fasting and offering in secret. Nothing about conforming to the doctrine of the trinity or any doctrine really.
At the end of that sermon, Christ says the following:
“Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” Matthew 7:24-27.
Ironically, critics of our church like to pull a passage from this sermon (just before the passage I quote above) out of context to argue that righteous actions and obedience are not what is important to Christ. And in doing so, these critics could not be contradicting Christ’s message more obviously. You guys can grandstand about who meets your criteria for being a follower of Christ all you want. But you are simply ignoring His own words and creating your own gospel in the process.
Its all about doing? And when Christ tells us to believe in Him, that means nothing, does it? Who he is is irrelevant?
FofF said
“It is very telling and interesting that what was probably Christ’s greatest sermon- The Sermon on the Mount- does not support what apostate Christianity insists upon about a person being a “Christian.”
This sermon is found in Matthew chapters 5 through 7. In this sermon, we do not find any of the arbitrary, superficial, theological criteria or boundaries that you guys like to throw at LDS. You find nothing about abstract theological affirmations or constructs in this sermon. What we find are those things that Christ outlines for people who wish to follow Him, or to be Christians.”
First of all it’s only Mormons who talk about apostate Christianity without offering a scrap of evidence for the claim. If we’re going to say things like that then perhaps it should be mentioned that as far as I’m aware most Mormon sects refer to the LDS as ‘apostate’
However, in His sermon Christ tells us how to live Christian lives (after accepting what we are told in John 3:16) but I see nothing concerning giving 10% of everything we have so as to be worthy, I don’t read anything about becoming Gods, I see no mention of a so-called Celestial Kingdom etc. I could go on for a long time debating that sermon but it’s not necessary because nothing & I repeat, nothing of LDS dogma or doctrine is to be found there & it is dogma that defines Christianity.
The Sermon on the Mount cannot be used to define Christianity; it goes much deeper than that. I am absolutely convinced that there are many people of all religious persuasions, perhaps even atheists who live their lives according to what we read in Matthew but would you call them Christians?
Finally, I’m not sure if you’re referring to Matthew 7:15:23 in your last paragraph but if you are then may I suggest that you read them again, especially verses Matthew 7:22-23 which could have been written with the LDS in mind. Before you tell me about Mormon people doing good let me say that I didn’t mention the Mormon people, I said the LDS, which is a corrupt organization leading vulnerable people away from Christ because it’s profitable for them to do so.
Sorry, the reference in the last paragraph should have been Matthew 7:15-23 I put a colon where there should have been a hyphen
Fof F,
As usual most of what you say is ridiculous , using straw man or red herring tactics .
You said: ” The Sermon on the Mount –does not support what apostate Christianity insists
upon about a person being a ‘ christian’ ” .
That’s a half truth at best . The Sermon on the Mount is a great discourse . Since it was given
early in His ministry it should’nt be used as enough disclosure of truths necessary to identity
a true believer in Jesus .
you said , ” It is all about doing .”
Again you miss the mark . It’s all about doing AND believing —2 Jn. 5,7 ( vr 5 is the doing ,
vr 7 is the believing — believing in the right Jesus ) .
you said ” Nothing about conforming to the doctrine of the trinity or any doctrine really .”
At the time it was given it was’nt time to disclose other vital truths . ( Rom 10:9-13 ) .
Does the Mormon Articles of Faith give a full disclosure about what Mormons believed about
God , for example ? Do you this point ?
you said , ” Ironically, critics of our church like to pull a passage from this sermon( just before
the passage I quote above ) out of context to argue that righteous actions and obedience are
not what is important to Christ .”
another example of your use of straw man tactics .
you said , ” You guys can grandstand about who meets your criteria for being a follower of
Christ all you want . But you are simply ignoring His own words and creating your own gospel
in the process .”
No grandstanding , just comparing . We have our opinion as you have yours . The problem with
defining who is a “christian” is that this word has used in so many ways ( I remember reading
years ago that in rural England they call a bed that is bed bug free a ” christian bed ” ) , that it
is rather generic . That’s unfortunate but it seems to be the case . In my opinion , influencial
Mormons have in recent years especially , resorted to what amounts to muddying the waters
in an attempt to create a definition of christian that is so broad that almost anyone can
qualify because they will often use a common Dictionary definition etc . This is why I really
don’t like playing that game . The more important question is : Is Mormonism the only true
church/gospel of Jesus ? ” That goes right to the heart of the matter , and should replace
the ” Are Mormons christians? “, question .
One last note . If you think that some of your leadership have not called others who talk of
following Jesus things like : ” pseudo ” christians ; ” so-called ” christians ; or ” cultists ”
you are badly mistaken .
You mentioned ” apostate christianity ” . It’s hard to take you seriously about accepting
the Mormon teaching of a complete apostasy given your past futile defense of it .
FOF , i read what you wrote, and you remind me of the Riddler on the old Batman show , you say something that i agree with then “about doing” which is true, following God and Christ, but as a Ex Mormon and missionary, i was in your spot , in your kind of thinking and understand why you think and speak that way.
You will defend the doctrine that i believed was restored , yet never taught, and must have faith in a boy who had zero witnesses to his vision , which is kinda strange for something so important not to have a month or day of when it happened.
We don’t have to defend Christ , we know , we don’t have to defend the Bible, we know.
All you hold on to can’t be proved and will never be proved.
I will always keep my laser beam focus on a few targets , Joseph and his vision, and the BOM, both false
Can you tell me FOF how you know Joseph saw what he saw ? just curious
MJP,
Around in circles. What does Christ tell us to do- to follow Him and belief Him. And how do we do that? By doing what He says. Only apostate Christianity could rationalize themselves to the point that they insist that trusting in Christ does not include actually doing what He told us to do. It could not be clearer than the Sermon on the Mount. He said very clearly- “whosoever heareth these saying of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man.” He is stating that people who do what He instructed in that sermon are the “wise man.” Those who do not are not, but are built upon sand. It is not theological or any abstract matters upon which that determination is made, despite what you guys insist. According to your logic, a person is a Christian who gets the theology correct according to your definitions and narrow reading of the scriptures. That means that a person could be an “unwise man” who builds his house upon the sand according to Christ, yet be a true Christian to you guys. And on the other hand, a person who does what Christ commands in the Sermon on the mount, yet gets the theology wrong by you is actually not a Christian. It is truly perverse and devilish, in my opinion.
How do we truly “know” Christ? By following Him. In other words, doing what He tells us to do. Not by merely intellectualizing His nature and history. We cannot understand who He is or what He is without first following Him. And I base that upon His own words. And you guys have that perfectly backwards as I see it. In modern vernacular, “talk is cheap.” I think Christ would agree with that 100%. Again, the words of Christ from the Sermon on the mount could not be clearer- do what He says to do. Those people who do that will be esteem by Christ as His followers. No amount of intellectual accuracy in abstract constructs will mean a thing compared to that.
“If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Simple method of following and showing love. Yet you guys will insist that keeping His commandments really only means believing His nature is what you guys think it is.
Old man- your post is almost entirely beside the point. Yeah- I get it. You think I am apostate. That is not the point. Neither is the fact that I think you are apostate. Neither are any of the LDS practices. The point is entirely about how Christ defined a follower of His and how that contradicts the position of the critics here. And it is fitting but ironic that you did not really respond to that point, but jumped to another topic altogether.
Mike R,
You are essentially saying that we should place more weight on what is said in 2 John than what Christ Himself said. I get that. And that is where I call you out on who is really a follower of Christ. You claim that Christ simply had not revealed what He really wanted us to do at that point is 100% conjecture with no support. (Old man implied this as well).
Your use of 2 John 5 and 7 to dismiss the words of Christ in Matthew is embarrassing. It shows the lengths to which folks must twist the Bible to explain away the gospel of Christ. Because those verses warn that there are some people who claim that Christ has not come, you think Christ’s own words about following Him are irrelevant? Wow. Please tell me you made a mistake in the citation of the scripture you wish to refer to. Again, you refer to Romans instead of the words of Christ. There is a very clear pattern of preferring the words of servants instead of Christ Himself. And yet you guys criticize us because Christ did not teach about eternal marriage, etc. You insist we trust a “middle-man” instead of Christ. Now you just insist that Christ didn’t reveal the “vital truths.” Truly hilarious.
Here is a challenge. Please provide some direct quotations of Christ wherein He defines His followers or disciples in a way that contradicts LDS doctrine or belief. I really don’t think you can.
FoF, when you mentioend the Sermon on the Mount, a few things you did not mention were these.
1. Jesus said, not everyone one who says, Lord Lord will be saved.
Notice Jesus said, HE DID NOT KNOW THESE PEOPLE.
They might as well claim to be Christians, they claim to have done good works in His name, yet he claims to not know them. Then they claimed to do good works, LDS claim they must do good works to be saved.
I know you claim thats not true, but all of us here have given quotes from leaders proving otherwise.
You can claim to know Jesus, but in reallity, does He know you? I dont think so.
“And how do we do that? By doing what He says.” But what does he say we must do? Show me where temple marriage is required, or that attainment of the priesthood is required for heaven. Tell me where Christ says we must do certain things to become exalted, not just reach heaven. On we go.
You never answer the question of whether knowledge of the identity of Christ is important. You jump over that and say that we know him by following him. Is knowing precisely who we are following important? Would you follow anyone without first knowing who they are?
Now, it is clear from your post that action is important to you. Obedience is important to you. And here is where you misunderstand Christian doctrine. Do you still seriously believe Christianity as we espouse is a no-action-faith? If so, I strongly urge you to look into what it is we believe and how we are told to practice it. It is very far from a no-action-faith. Following it is extremely difficult, yet we are to live out our lives a daily sacrifice for Christ. Think for a moment precisely what it means to sacrifice our lives daily and then respond. Respond to what I have written here, not any preconceptions you have on traditional Christianity.
RickB,
You just did precisely what I spoke of in an early post today. You ripped those verses out of context and tried to make them sound like they are saying we should not be too concerned with obedience and behavior. And you are again completely contradicting Christ’s words here. Who are “those people?”
The people Christ was referring to are those who do outward religious acts to be seen or praised of other people. Period. The whole Sermon on the Mount is a description of how to follow Christ in behavior AND motive. Throughout the sermon, He compared the behavior of the higher law to the lesser. The whole sermon is about demonstrating the right behavior with the right motives. It is all about the humble motive of pleasing God behind righteous acts instead of getting earthly praise. But you are now trying to make it look like He is saying not to worry about obedience or righteous acts. You got it 100% wrong. He absolutely wants us to obey and be righteous. But to do so without being arrogant or comparing ourselves to others or doing those acts with the motive of getting praise from others. That is entirely different from not doing the acts.
And it is immediately after this passage which you quote that Christ says, “whosoever heareth these saying of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man who built his house upon a rock……”
Go back and read those three chapters. The apostate Christians who spend their time criticizing LDS always get this wrong.
I think that is six posts for me today!
FoF said,
“What does Christ tell us to do…”
I say,
Which Christ, FoF?
You point to the words of the Biblical Christ, but who do you say that He is? There’s really nothing else to talk about until we determine the answer to that question. Are you talking about the uncreated, sovereign Lord of all creation, Christ Jesus of the Bible? Or, are you talking about the created offspring of the Mormon god (who used to be a sinful man on another planet), who you claim as your spirit brother, and Satan’s, who didn’t get the job done on the cross, but needed Joseph Smith t0 set things right? They are not the same person, not by a long-shot.
So, FoF, who do you say that Jesus Christ is?
FoF,
you reject the truth of the Bible and add what you want.
I have shown all the LDS here over the years, that the Religious leaders went to Jesus and said, What Work(S) must we do. I have pointed out many times, it might as well be the Mormon people or leaders going to Jesus and saying, what work(S) must we do. Notice they are asking for works to do.
Jesus replied with, the only work we MUST DO, IS BELIEVE ON HIM.
Notice if Jesus required works, He would have agreed with those leaders and gave us a list. I know you LDS all think I’m denying doing works when ever I mention that verse. But as we all have said before, We dont believe works save us, Jesus paid our price, and as we and I have posted, the Bible tells us, we are saved by GRACE ALONE, NOT of works, lest any man should boast.
Why does the Bible tell us we are saved By grace and not of works? And that we would boast? Because, we would boast and brag about how we saved ourselves or helped Jesus save us.
See a man can repent on His/her death bed and be saved, or a person can be about to be excuted and repent and cry out to God and be saved, because works dont save us. We do works, not becasue we must, but because, it comes from a greatful heart and shows we love God and choose to walk away from our old life style.
But I know as usual you will reject everything and state we must do works, and in a round about way, reject what Jesus said.
FofF said
“Old man- your post is almost entirely beside the point. Yeah- I get it. You think I am apostate. That is not the point. Neither is the fact that I think you are apostate. Neither are any of the LDS practices.”
Allow me to remind you that it was not I who raised the issue of apostasy; it was YOU & I quote:
“The Sermon on the Mount- does not support what apostate Christianity insists upon about a person being a “Christian.”
I did NOT say you were an apostate I said, in response to the above accusation, that most Mormon sects consider the LDS to be apostate. Perhaps you have taken your cue from another well-known apologist in here who finds it convenient to distort what is said to him. That kind of deceptive rhetoric accomplishes nothing.
You then said:
“The point is entirely about how Christ defined a follower of His and how that contradicts the position of the critics here. And it is fitting but ironic that you did not really respond to that point, but jumped to another topic altogether”
I most definitely DID respond to that point, it just happened that I responded in a way that did not suit your purpose. You were making the claim that a Christian is known by the actions he takes, as defined by Christ in chapters 5 through 7 & while it’s true that Christ defined certain attributes of His followers in such a way do you really believe that there is nothing more than that to being a Christian? I told you in my post that many people, not just Christians, live that kind of life so your definition is at best incomplete & at worst false. Unless of course you believe that atheists are also Christians.
As I said, the definition of a Christian goes far deeper than you are willing to admit, it involves dogma & doctrine, a clear & correct understanding of who Christ is & what He accomplished. It is glaringly apparent that this is not something easily understood by Mormons, something my ex-wife can now testify to. It is only now, after reading the New Testament (unsupervised & alone) that she has come to understand that the Mormon Jesus she learned about in the LDS is not the same Jesus she has read about in scripture.
“apostate Christian”………………………………what’s that?
I can trace the Christian faith back to Jesus. Mormons can trace Mormonism back to Joseph Smith. It doesn’t exist prior to his fantasy trip.
Now there’s plenty of apostasy in Mormonism. FLDS believe that the LDS church is apostate. The Temple Lot group believe that Joseph Smith went into apostasy. Do Mormons even know what the “restored” gospel is? It’s changed so much and has so many different sects that I don’t think that it has any relevance any more.
That’s why so many Mormons are leaving the LDS church and why so many are inactive.
FoF,
The very fact that you believe in a great apostasy shows that we are NOT both Christians.
You are talking about a fundamentally DIFFERENT Jesus than we are talking about.
Our definitions of Jesus and Christian are mutually exclusive.
At least we are honest and admit that it is either one of us or the other.
You say it’s both. Have some integrity, at least a little bit.
FOF,
It would do you good to go to a Christian book store and get a solid copy of the history of the Christian Church, the first four hundred years. I have no qualms about studying the history of the Church and what went on between the Church Fathers and the heretics. Also, when you read about how the early martyrs died rather than renounce Jesus the Christ, I think you’d maybe begin to understand that the Christian faith is all about Him.
I’ve been asked to give my testimony many times over the years and have listened to the testimonies of Christians of various denominations. Guess what? It’s all about Jesus. None of them ever mentions the denomination they belong to. They don’t talk about Martin Luther, John Wesley or any of the other men associated with denominational Christianity.
All they talk about is Jesus, what He did for them and what He continues to do for them. Let me ask you something. Would you be comfortable standing up at the fast and testimony at your ward and giving a testimony about nothing but Jesus? How you were lost in your sins but how you are putting all of your faith and trust in Him for your salvation. That you give all honor and glory to Him and how you praise His Holy Name because of what He has done for you on the cross.
If you can’t first recognize who Jesus is and give such a testimony, you’re not a Christian.
So now we are changing topics to the apostasy? Incredible.
How about somebody respond to my points about the Sermon on the Mount? Or should we talk about polygamy instead?
FOF:
Your assumption that Christians don’t believe in “doing” could not be farther from the truth – not if they are truly believers. It’s just that we don’t put the cart before the horse and get everything absolutely upside down like Mormonism does. We believe that the only “doing” that God will recognize is the kind that comes out of first BELIEVING. We believe that the evidence of belief is “doing” – we just don’t believe that the “doing” is what saves us. You know why? ; Because that’s what the Bible (God’s living Word) says over and over again – and not just the Apostle Paul. Mormons love to stereotype all Christians this way – especially your leaders. They have tried to destroy the credibility of Christians from the very beginning. The last thing they want you to know is that there are millions of Blood-Bought Christians – that their stereotypes don’t fit – who desire to be absolutely devoted and obedient to Christ. I happen to be one of those. I have never pursued holiness more ardently in my life. I have never been more active in my Christian walk or in Christian service than I am in my life now. The LAST thing I believe in is “cheap grace”. People who call themselves Christians and believe that they are saved by Grace but do not then submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and “practice righteousness” (as the Apostle John puts it) are not truly believers as far as I am concerned – (again, I am not talking about earning, but evidence or fruit)and therefore they are lost. But to think that you can actually merit Eternal Life is to be equally lost – and that is exactly what your Church teaches, thereby misleading millions:
“Each of us has been sent to earth by our Heavenly Father to merit eternal life” (Robert D. Hales, General Conf. November 2007)
“The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God….” (Richard G. Scott, General Conf. October 2006)
“It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That de¬pends on your humility your sincerity, your works, your attitudes” (Spencer W. Kimball Miracle of Forgiveness)
“Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men” (Spencer W. Kimball Miracle of Forgiveness)
“It is hard to know when we have done enough for the Atonement to change our natures and so qualify us for eternal life. And we don’t know how many days we will have to give the service necessary for that mighty change to come” (Henry B. Eyring, April 2007 General Conference)
“Very gladly would the Lord give to everyone eternal life, but since that blessing can come only on merit-through the faithful performance of duty-only those who are worthy shall receive it.” – Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation)
“All must keep the commandments to merit mercy.” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ)
“Faith is a gift of God bestowed as a reward for personal righteousness.” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine)
“We all live on spiritual credit. In one way or another, the account builds. If you pay it off as you go, you have little need to worry. Soon you begin to learn discipline and know that there is a day of reckoning ahead. Learn to keep your spiritual account paid off at regular intervals rather than allowing it to collect interest and penalties.” (Boyd K. Packer, Church News, November 2011)
To me these are the voices of strangers; and “a stranger I will not follow, but I will flee from him…” (John 10:5) They are lies from the pit of Hell. These are not just a few isolated quotes; there are many more such teachings all the way back to Joseph Smith. In my opinion, these statements show a gross misunderstanding of the Gospel; otherwise “Christ died in vain!” How do you “merit mercy” when mercy, BY DEFINITION, can NOT be merited? The dilemma of “Mercy cannot rob Justice” is not solved – even in part – by the works or obedience of men; it was solved by the Cross of Calvary and that is the ONLY way it can be solved! “He is the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 2:2). HE satisfied the demands of justice and absorbed the wrath of God that we deserved on the Cross. HE ALONE could do it and He did it ALONE! Your leaders, by their teachings, mock the very essence and beauty of the Gospel and belittle what Christ accomplished in His life, death and resurrection. Mormon doctrine screams: JESUS IS NOT ENOUGH!” It walks up to the Cross and says, “This Sacrifice is not sufficient; I will make it more sufficient by doing ALL that I can do; I must keep ALL of the commandments; I must repent of ALL of my sins and never repeat them; I must deny myself of ALL ungodliness; I must add more and THEN it will be sufficient; add more than what – God in the flesh??? That’s not addition, that’s subtraction! Do you really think that a person can do enough to “qualify” for Eternal Life? Do you really believe that a person can live righteously enough to “keep their spiritual account paid off”? Packer had at least one thing right; it IS a matter of accounting. “…by His knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many (make many to be accounted righteous); for he shall bear their iniquities.” (Isaiah 53:11). Our ONLY hope is to have HIS Righteousness credited to our account. At the heart of true Christianity is the great exchange: My sins go to him, His righteousness comes to me. He bears my punishment, I gain His reward. That is the gospel.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that BELIEVETH on him is not condemned: but he that BELIEVETH not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:14-18)
These are not the words of Paul, but of Jesus Himself!
And the Sermon on the Mount wasn’t about adding more things to our “To Do’ list, it was about the state of our heart. Jesus is after our hearts, not just our allegiance or dutiful obedience; but most of us don’t want Him to pursue our hearts; what we want is to work for Him. But right action that doesn’t have the right heart behind it is in no way pleasing to God. You don’t end up with real worship and you don’t have transformed hearts, you just have more things to do; and if you do them well, then you get to look at other people who aren’t doing those things as well and feel superior.
So – NO; you don’t DO something to get this amazing GIFT. You BELIEVE something. And believing is different from doing because believing is banking on the DOING of Another. Jesus DID the great something. He lived the life we could never live for ourselves and He died the death we could never die for ourselves. He bore the punishment that was ours to bear and He took the curse that was ours to be cursed with. He DID the DOING. And whoever BELIEVES in Him benefits from all that. It becomes theirs because believing in Jesus – receiving Him as the great DOER of all you need done for you that you can’t do, unites you to Him. And when you are united with Jesus all that He is, He is for you and all His forgiveness is your forgiveness and His righteousness is your righteousness. I don’t have to wait “centuries” before that “happy day” when I will be forgiven. I am already forgiven! IT IS FINISHED! Those were some of the last words of Jesus on the Cross. “Tetelestai” is the Greek word for that phrase. It is the very same word that a judge or magistrate in Jesus’ time would write across someone’s “Certificate of Debt” or “Handwriting of Ordinances” to show that their sentence had been FULLY SERVED. This same word was also written on business documents or receipts in those times to indicate that a bill had been PAID IN FULL. Colossians 2:13-14 says that Jesus FORGAVE (past tense) ALL our trespasses by “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross”. PAID IN FULL! For those who are IN CHRIST, It’s DONE! It’s SETTLED! “Come on Michael, you tell people that, and they’ll go live however they want to live.” You know what? You may be right; but when people really get that IT WILL CHANGE THE WAY THEY WANT TO LIVE. That’s what you guys just don’t seem to understand. You said that the way to get to know Christ is by following Him. I say that there is no way that a person can follow Him unless they, by the Grace of God, come to know Him and what He has truly done for us, and are given a glimpse of the treasure that He really is. Dead men can’t follow or do anything unless they are first “made alive together with Christ”. “By a single offering, He has perfected for all time, those who are being sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14) Sanctification is progressive, but not Justification or conversion. A person cannot DECIDE to be converted or reborn. Salvation and regeneration is not a human decision – it is a supernatural work of God; and it is every bit as miraculous as when God said “Let there be light!” God did that miracle in my heart about 8 years ago. I don’t have to spend the rest of my life trying to bear fruit to prove that I am worthy to be a branch. I am already a branch, so I WILL bear fruit. Do I still sin? Unfortunately, yes, but I cannot stay in a continuous state of carnality because THAT’S NOT WHO I AM ANYMORE! And I no longer do good works to merit something from God or to win his favor or to put Him in my debt. My good works are not a means to salvation, but evidence that I already belong to Him. It’s not “I obey, therefore I am accepted”; it’s “I am accepted, therefore I obey”! What takes more devotion, obeying God to get His acceptance; or obeying because I’ve already got it? The truth of the Gospel is that He delights in me NOW. I am NOW, Holy and Blameless before God; not because I deserve that; not because I have merited that; But because I’m IN CHRIST – BY FAITH! I please Him because of Jesus; I now get to obey Him out of the overflow of an intimate love relationship with Him where, by faith, Christ is manifesting HIS VERY LIFE THROUGH ME. You know what that’s called? FREEDOM!!! Any gospel that teaches that our identity is rooted in anything other than the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross is a false gospel and it will ROB YOU of the FREEDOM and the RICHES that you are meant to enjoy in Christ. FOF, I pray that God will open your eyes to all of this one day, because right now you are completely blind.
I finish with the words of Paul that he may as well have been speaking to Mormons: “Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:1-4)
Sorry for the long post y’all, but as Ravi Zacharias said, “The truth matters, especially when you are on the receiving end of a lie.”
“So now we are changing topics to the apostasy? Incredible.”
No we’re not changing topics, we’re responding to your comment about apostate Christianity, something that YOU introduced. I really can’t understand you FofF you complain if no one responds to the things you say & now you’re complaining because they are.
“How about somebody respond to my points about the Sermon on the Mount?”
I believe your points concerning the sermon on the mount have been addressed, possibly you haven’t read the replies to your posts so may I suggest you do so now. If, after doing so, you still feel that way why not detail the points that you believe have been ignored so we all know exactly where we stand.
Fof F ,
I get the impression that you did’nt bother to read what I said , or if you did then you did’nt
care to think about it because you all you did was resort to faulty assumptions .
you said , ” You are essentially saying that we should place more weight on what is said in 2Jn
than what Christ Himself said . I get that .”
No you don’t get what I said .
you said , ” You claim that Christ simply had not revealed what He really wanted us to do at
that point is 100% conjecture with no support .”
Wrong again . I said no such thing .
you said , ” Your use of 2Jn 5,7 to dismiss the words of Christ in Matthew is embarrassing .
It shows the lengths to which folks must twist the Bible to explain away the gospel of Christ .
Because those verses warn that there are some people who claim that Christ has not come ,
you think Christ’s own words about following Him are irrelevant ? Wow .”
I can’t imagine a more clear example of false assumptions and innuendo about what I actually
did say than these ridiculous comments by you , and that’s what is truly embarrassing .
The apostles’s words in 2 Jn ” dismissing ” Jesus’ words in Matthew ? That shows the length
to which you appear to want to go in order to twist my words .
I was responding to your comment of ” It is all about doing ” . I stated that it’s not all about
doing what Jesus asks in the Sermon on the Mount because we also have to believe in who He
rightly is , that’s what 2Jn 5-9 is teaching us . Verse 5 ( and 6 ) mention doing what He asks —
lifestyle , and vr 7 states that a correct view of His identity is also necessary —He came in
the flesh ( compare Jn 1:1, 14 ) . Deceivers will deny that essential truth and therefore anyone
who accepts their false doctrine is led astray . In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus does not go
into teaching about Him being God in the flesh ( or other truths about Him ) , that was made
explicit later on in His ministry and in the apostles writings after His return to heaven .
you said , ” Again you refer to Romans instead of the words of Christ . There is a very clear
pattern of preferring the words of servants instead of Christ Himself .”
That comment only shows that you exhibit a pattern — a pattern of faulty assumptions .
you said , ” You insist we trust a ‘ middle man ‘ instead of Christ . Now you just insist that
Christ did’nt reveal ‘ vital truths ‘ . Truly hilarious .”
You know what’s not hilarious ? your reasonings , your logic , because you seem really confused.
I insist you trust a middle man ” instead of ” Christ ? Where did I say that about you ?
Christ did’nt reveal vital truths ? I stated that when Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount that
it was’nt time then for some other vital truths to be revealed by Him , such as what we see Paul
stating in Rom 10:9-13 , hence I cited it . There are other examples but that one was enough
to make my point . Apparently you did’nt understand that fact .
Your challenge ? Sorry, but perhaps if you re-phrased the question I might give you a response .
But given the way you have argued so far I ‘d probably be wasting my time .
FOF,
You are so deep in denial, but the helpful thing is that you reveal the Mormon mind-set every time you post.
As Old Man pointed out, didn’t you call us apostate Christians? It was a way of insulting those of us who are Christians. If you’re going to make comments like that, be prepared to be answered.
Our point is that Christianity can be traced back to the first century to Jesus and His disciples. We have the evidence. We are Christians. It says right in the Book of Acts where we were first called Christians (Acts 11:26).
You can trace Mormonism back to Joseph Smith in the early 19th century. The religion he founded was not Christianity because it’s not related to the faith practiced by believers in the first century.
Smith claimed authority to establish a religion because of a false notion that the Church founded by Jesus had gone into apostasy. The major point is that Mormons have no proof of this other than some far fetched notions that they weave together to justify Smith’s creation.
The bottom line FOF is that Joseph Smith was not a prophet, the BoM is not true, the LDS church is not the one true church and the guy you call a living prophet is little more than a man who runs a religious corporation.
Mormonism is not a Christian religion.
Mike R.
Your comments to FOF above leave me to ponder whether or not someone like our Mormon buddy can be so totally naive and ignorant or is he just a troll coming here making outlandish claims about things that the Christian posters never said or intimated?
Is this a person so damaged by Mormonism that he can’t process information in a normal fashion? Or is this someone who has been indoctrinated to such a degree that he can’t see the truth being presented here? We’ve also had trolls here before who enjoy sending the Christians on nefarious journeys down empty rabbit holes.
None-the-less it’s an important case study giving us insights into this type of Mormon mind set. It becomes obvious how to answer a naive true believer.
I write for the lurkers who have begun to have serious doubts about Mormonism. These folks are the ones the Lord has brought to us and who will leave Mormonism. FOF provides a contrast and his comments are so ridiculous that the Mormon seeking answers is given a clear contrast.
I praise God for FOF. He is extremely important to the work being done here.
FofF
I have a very simple question for you that’s directly connected to the topic in hand. In an earlier post you referred to & I quote “apostate Christianity” that of course means everyone in here are apostates. This is a pretty serious accusation to throw at the body of Christ & it’s a claim that unless true, will demolish any pretensions the LDS may have towards being a Christian organization
My question to you is this:
Without using Joseph Smith, or any of your so called prophets as a source of information, are you prepared to show everyone in here the evidence you have for the total apostasy that the LDS claim to have occurred shortly after the death of the apostles ?
Please don’t quote your ‘prophets’ their words can’t be used as evidence as they didn’t arrive on the scene until 1700 years after the presumed event took place. Let’s see some genuine historical evidence. Provide it or give up your claim to Christianity.
OM,
We have another very serious problem here with FOF’s assertion of “apostate Christianity”. It’s called “bearing false witness”. Unless FOF has some definite evidence that the LDS religion that he practices today was the same Christian faith practiced in the first century, he’s bearing false witness.
I want solid evidence not the ridiculous unsubstantiated opinion that Mormons often propose to say there was a great apostasy in the Church. In order to claim that, FOF would have to provide evidence that Mormonism was the norm in the first century church. I’ve never found any support for this notion.
OK. Let’s back up. This thread is about whether LDS are Christians. My posts are about the criteria for who is a Christian. And I am saying that the words of Christ about who are His followers contradicts the ridiculous, arbitrary, and man-made set of rules advocated by the critics here for determining who is a Christian. And I am showing that Christ was more about doing righteous acts with a pure heart than He was about abstract theological constructs. That does not mean that understanding who He is is worthless. And I refer to the Sermon on the Mount as an example. Because I used the adjective “apostate” in my post in reference to the modern Christianity, that does not mean the topic automatically changes, at least in my view. If we switched topics every time you guys threw in a comparable adjective, the topics would last no longer than one or two posts. Capiche?
So far, we have quotations from the Bible about false Christs, those who claim Christ had not come during the New Testament church days, challenges to prove the apostasy, and on and on. But nobody but RickB has really responded directly to my main point- Christ Himself taught that humble obedience with a pure heart was the ultimate determinant for being a follower of Him. I see nothing here that contradicts my claim. I esteem Mother Teresa a far greater Christian than anybody who happens to believe the correct Christology but who looks down on others.
Wilburson- my claim is that you guys believe that the main determinant for whether a person is a Christian is intellectual conformity to the abstract criteria which includes belief in the trinity and believing Jesus was not a spirit brother of Lucifer, etc. etc. The critic loves to insist that I believe in the “wrong Jesus.” And that is simply pathetic and unintelligent. My point is about the criteria for Christianhood, not whether you believe good behavior is a good thing.
In short, you guys jump and scream that LDS are not in your club because we won’t submit to your man-made criteria because those criteria have been around for a long time, even though there continue to be fundamental disagreements within modern Christianity. (please don’t start another topic here). I could not be more thrilled that we do not fall in line with the crowd on this matter and many others. Your insistence on conformity in the mental abstract instead of humble discipleship erode faith in the true religion of Christ.
RickB- you actually are the only one engaging my points. Thanks. But I simply think you are wrong and pulling that verse from John 5 out of its appropriate context and meaning. Christ was talking to the people who had merely come to Him because He was handing out bread. They showed no loyalty or anything deeper than the desire to fill their bellies. They neither did what He said to do nor believed He was who He said He was. And this is a good demonstration of what it means to “believe.” A person cannot claim to believe in Christ and not follow Him. Believing Him is following Him. But you guys separate the two. And this contradicts the other words of Christ- like the Sermon on the Mount, for example. It makes it look like Christ is not consistent. But what I am arguing is perfectly consistent with every single word which Christ uttered that is recorded in the New Testament. If a person believes in Christ, he or she does what He commands- like those many things in the Sermon on the Mount. And that is why Christ said, “whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, him will I liken unto a wise man who built his house upon a rock……” Nothing abstract or strictly theological. Again- talk is cheap.
One of the most apostate concepts ever taught is this separation of believing in Christ and actually doing what He says. And true belief is determined more by whether a person DOES what Christ taught than any intellectual set of theological specifics about whether Christ was created, whether He was a spirit brother of Lucifer a trillion years ago, mental submission to the trinity teaching, etc.
The childish insistence on mental agreement on the trinity and other abstract concepts is far more Pharisee-like than almost anything else. They were hypocrits. Hypocrisy is all about behavior- teaching one thing and DOING another. And making the primary criteria for Christianhood these mental concepts allows hypocrisy to exist and persist. That is because the emphasis is not on humble following and behavior.
FoF,
I think your points on the Sermon on the Mount have been adequately addressed. We are to work and we are to be wise people by following his sayings there. Absolute truth here. Find one Christian who denies that.
But notice in Mat. 7:24-27, Jesus talks about wise men, not necessarily salvation. One can perhaps assume wise men will be saved men, but that is not necessarily so. Wise men can be wise and not saved. There is no necessary connection to wisdom and salvation.
While there are verses in the Sermon that could be interpreted as saying “do this and be saved” there is nothing that directly says it. Couple that with Jesus’ direct words in John 3:16 wherein he states that if one believes in Christ, that person is saved. The verses following 16 support this. Vs. 21 does state that those who do truth will come to God, but we still have to ask what the truth is.
We would contend the truth is Jesus, and following Him by immersing ourselves in Christ we do the truth. Your “doing” is a set of rules and regulations and customs that must be followed. If these things are truth and in Christ, then you must be able to point to where Christ directed them. Can you do that? If so, show us where Jesus directed temple marriages and missions and tithing, etc.
FoF:
You: “This thread is about whether LDS are Christians. My posts are about the criteria for who is a Christian”
Me: Are apostates Christian? Therefore, a discussion on apostasy is within the purview of the thread.
You: “And I am showing that Christ was more about doing righteous acts with a pure heart than He was about abstract theological constructs. That does not mean that understanding who He is is worthless.”
Me: What’s abstract about Jesus telling us in John 3:16 that whoever believes in Him receives eternal life? What’s abstract about the numerous times Jesus tells us to drink from His water and receive eternal life? Its pretty straight forward, actually.
You also mention that discussion who Christ is is not worthless, so let’s discuss it. If following the true Christ has merit, why avoid the issue, especially in a discussion of who is Christian and who is not? Is it because the topic is one in which you are uncomfortable discussing?
You: “If a person believes in Christ, he or she does what He commands- like those many things in the Sermon on the Mount.”
Me: who says we don’t think we should do these things? Be specific and don’t generalize.
You: “One of the most apostate concepts ever taught is this separation of believing in Christ and actually doing what He says. And true belief is determined more by whether a person DOES what Christ taught than any intellectual set of theological specifics about whether Christ was created, whether He was a spirit brother of Lucifer a trillion years ago, mental submission to the trinity teaching, etc.”
Me: There’s that word again, ‘apostate’. But again, tell us where we believe doing is not important? Further, where does Christ say we are to follow the LDS programs/rituals to be saved? Also, can’t one “do” and not believe? There are many people who follow the Sermon on the Mount but are not believers.
You: “The childish insistence on mental agreement on the trinity and other abstract concepts is far more Pharisee-like than almost anything else”
Me: How so? If the identity of Christ has merit, how is an insistence on defining Christ childish or Pharisee-like? What also would the alternative be to an insistence on a consistent and accurate description of the identity of Jesus Christ?
You: “They were hypocrits. Hypocrisy is all about behavior- teaching one thing and DOING another. And making the primary criteria for Christianhood these mental concepts allows hypocrisy to exist and persist. That is because the emphasis is not on humble following and behavior.”
Me: Again, tell us where, precisely, Christians are hypocrites. I want to know exactly what it is you talk about. Hypocrisy is not limited to one particular group of people, so I am curious as to who it is you claim are hypocrites. If it is those who expect a consistent and accurate description of Christ, then consider your own assertion that the discussion has merit. If it is everyone who upholds a definition and believes in salvation by faith, tell us exactly how that alone causes hypocrisy. How does a belief in salvation by faith lead to someone becoming un-humble and not interesting in following Jesus?
—-
You seem to have a number of false notions about Christianity that you need to really consider with an open mind. There is nothing about believing in Jesus saving power through faith that precludes a strong emphasis on obedience. There is nothing within the Sermon on the Mount that destroys Jesus’ words in John 3 and elsewhere that faith/belief in Him alone is what saves.
There are indeed a lot of people who say they believe and go do whatever they want. They are not true Christians, in my opinion. But just the same, aren’t there a lot of Mormons who go to church and ward and a number of activities within the church who when outside do whatever they want? Would you say these people represent your church’s values?
Be informed. Be honest. Be open. You keep saying you have been, but there is no evidence you understand what our faith espouses. I assure you, obedience is one of the bigger things we emphasize. Faith without obedience is not really faith. However, obedience without faith is not faith, either. This leads us to the question you said has merit but you don’t want to talk about: in whom do we put our faith?
Well I guess in Mormonism, salvation comes by following the principles outlined in the Sermon On the Mount. That’s not what the Bible teaches which is further testimony that Mormonism isn’t a Christian religion.
Here we go again. The Philippian Jailer asks Paul and Silas what he has to do to be saved. The answer is, “Do all that is taught in the Sermon On the Mount and you shall be saved.” OOPS! No that’s not the reply. The reply is “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.”
Let’s examine motivation. Why would a Mormon follow the principles taught by Jesus in the SOTM? Well it’s so that the male can become a god. In Christianity we follow the principles taught by Jesus in the SOTM because of our faith in him and our desire to live a life that will bring honor, praise and glory to Him. Quite a difference isn’t it!
We are justified before the Father based on our faith in His Son Jesus Christ and His redemptive work on the cross. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit as we walk in newness of life subsequent to being born again. We will be glorified at some point in the future as a result of our faith in Jesus and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
MJP,
Thanks for the response.
What do you think it means to “build one’s house on the rock?” Who is the “rock?” I think there can be no question that Christ is the rock. From what did the water flow from to save the Israelites in the desert? “The Rock.” What did that water and rock represent, ultimately? Paul identifies that “rock” as Christ. Deuteronomy identifies the God of Israel as the “Rock of Salvation.” Hannah proclaimed that there is no “rock like our God.” King David said “The Lord is my rock.” Isaiah spoke of Christ as the “rock of offense” and of “the rock of thy strength.” So I think there can be no question but that Christ Himself is the rock to which He referred in the Sermon on the Mount. And He is saying that hearing His words and doing them is building one’s life or “house” upon Him. It is not the intellectual or abstract. It is an absolutely practical gospel.
It is an arbitrary criticism that our gospel or my gospel is a “set of rules and regulations and customs.” That is a common and convenient claim. But it is a simple opinion without justification or support. Yes- we believe we must obey. But Christ Himself commanded us to repent and obey. Whether I can prove to anybody whether Christ commanded temple worship etc. is completely beside the point.
How does one “immerse” himself in Christ? Would that involve behavior? I strongly suggest that it is impossible for a person “immerse” himself in Christ independent of DOING those acts which Christ commanded. In fact, that is the primary means by which a person immerses himself in Christ. That is the primary means of coming to “know” Him. Without this, it is truly impossible to come to this knowledge.
You mention John 3- a great chapter. Consider these verses: “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” John 3:19-21
Whether a person loves darkness or light is completely determined by whether he does good or evil “deeds.” Do good- love the light. Do evil- hate the light. This passage does not support your position at all.
“Why would a Mormon follow the principles taught by Jesus in the SOTM? Well it’s so that the male can become a god. In Christianity we follow the principles taught by Jesus in the SOTM because of our faith in him and our desire to live a life that will bring honor, praise and glory to Him. Quite a difference isn’t it!”
Indeed. Very curious to notice the focus on who gets glorified. I know LDS will claim they work to be exalted so that dad can be proud and they are therefore glorifying him, though.
falcon and MJP,
Note the words of Christ in that sermon to which you refer, “Judge not that ye be not judged.” Do you really think you can judge the motive, desire, and heart of other people? I can think of very few things that are more dangerous.
FoF,
Or, the interpretation of building one’s house upon a rock could well be simply that life will be solid. And even if we take your interpretation, there is still no mention of salvation, so building a house upon Christ’s words will lead to good things for the person, but salvation is not mentioned here. Interesting to note, huh?
You: “Whether I can prove to anybody whether Christ commanded temple worship etc. is completely beside the point.” No, this is PRECISELY the point. If it is Christ you say is commanding temple worship is required, you MUST demonstrate that Christ actually commanded it. Since your claim is that we lost the original practices of the church, it is you who must demonstrate what was in fact lost. You need tangible evidence, not just a “knowledge” that what you are taught is true. Remember, I have a “knowledge” that is exclusive from yours.
You mention John 3, which I addressed. Perhaps you did not read my post well enough. I mention 21, which states that those that do “truth” will come to the light. I ask, then, what is “truth”? I will also ask whether you are in the light? I don’t think you are, to be honest. I think there is much that appears good but is not, and you fall into that territory. Satan is called the Great Deceiver for a reason. (I realize you can make the same claim, but this is why honest discussion about all the issues brought up here is important.)
As to you admonition to Falcon and I, I urge you to consider the warning as well. With you labels of apostasy and cognitive dissonance, and calling those who leave your church lacking in intellectual strength is certainly judging. For all your cries to be good and honor other people, I find you to be nothing but a dismissive and arrogant person beneath the surface. I would love for you to prove me wrong, but your inability to even try to grasp what we are saying shows you have no desire to even try.
Am I judging? Maybe, maybe not, but I am also standing up for the truth, which I am called to do. What’s your reason?
FofF
“OK. Let’s back up. This thread is about whether LDS are Christians. My posts are about the criteria for who is a Christian. And I am saying that the words of Christ about who are His followers contradicts the ridiculous, arbitrary, and man-made set of rules advocated by the critics here for determining who is a Christian.”
Apart from those originating with the false prophets leading the LDS you haven’t seen any ridiculous, arbitrary or man made definitions of a Christian in this forum. It’s common practice in the LDS to mock Christians by saying we all believe different things hence the thousands of different sects. That is totally false, ask any Christian of any denomination or sect about Christ & you will receive the same answers you have received here. All denomination or sects have the same view of Christ, the same understanding of who He is & what He accomplished. I say again, the Sermon on the Mount may well describe Christian attributes but it does NOT define a Christian.
“Wilburson- my claim is that you guys believe that the main determinant for whether a person is a Christian is intellectual conformity to the abstract criteria which includes belief in the trinity and believing Jesus was not a spirit brother of Lucifer, etc. etc.”
There is nothing intellectual or abstract about the Trinity & as for not believing that Christ has a spirit brother called Lucifer, well, what can I say? If you really believe He has a brother called Lucifer then you DO follow a different Christ, do a little research on exactly who Lucifer (not a name but a title for the king of Babylon) was before mentioning him in the same breath as our Lord. By saying that to wilburson you have shown conclusively that you DO follow a different Christ, you do NOT know the Christ of the Bible & therefore you are NOT a Christian.
Ps. as you still insist that we here are apostates please answer the question I addressed to you in my last post & provide historical evidence for your claim.
Hello FoF,
I have a lot to post for you, I will cover many things and probally use 3-4 posts. So Before you only read part of what I say and then reply and claim, I did not answer you on something, just know I will finish my last post stating I’m done and covered everything I wanted to say. I will cover again the sermon on the mount in addation to other things said.
Starting with this,
We read in the BoM, Supposedly the Most correct Book ever Written. And According to A of F 8, it is above the Bible as being MORE ACCURATE than the Bible. Any way we read in
Ok, First off, notice in these verses they use the Word Christian and this is a problem, if the Book of Acts is to be true, Why? In my copy of the BoM dated 1920 Down the bottom of the page, it dates these happenings to be Both BC 72 AND 73 If they were called Christians After the death and resurrection of Christ, how Could this occurrence of the Word Christian, take place before Christ was around?
Now lets look at what the word Christian first meant.
And Wikipedia:
Now if we look back through the Bible, starting back in Genesis, We Find God created man and women.
No mention of them being Christians. They are believers in God. Then we read in Genesis 17:5
God made Abraham the father of many Nations. Now we find we have Gentiles (Non-Jewish) People, and the Jewish people. Again no mention of CHRISTIANS. Their is only Jews and Gentiles. If the Gentiles convert to Judaism they are simply followers of God, Not Christians.
Once we get into the new testament, We find, before the Death of Christ, they still are simply followers of God. Then after the Resurrection, we find only 3 times is the word Christian used. And as I stated above, it first started out as a derogatory term. The 3 times we see the word Christian used are
Now your leaders and prophets of old were not kind to Christians and what they said about them, I honestly think if they were alive today, they would line all of you guys up and slap you silly, then call you false teachers for claiming to be “Christians” after what they said about us.
like these for example.
FoF, Correct me if I am wrong, but if LDS really believe the BoM, then they believe this passage, and if they believe this passage, then that means all of us non-lds Christians on this blog clearly dont believe in Mormonism or your church, so that means we dont belong to the one true church and theirfore are a whore and abomination. So why would you claim to be a christian? That would lead people to believe we all agree and believe the same thing, and clearly we do not. So if you dont believe that passage, we have bigger issues.
Then you leaders have said this,
Your leaders said that about us Christians, now all of a sudden you guys want to be know as Christians? So that means all that your leaders said about us applies to you? More to come FoF.
FOF,
Of course I judge. I judge everyday. I judge people’s motives, their behavior. Everyone judges others. I’m involved in a business deal currently and I’m constantly judging the motives, tactics, trustworthiness, veracity, candor and the character of the people I’m dealing with. My daughter has a facebook official boyfriend (I love that term) and I’m always judging the guy. If we couldn’t judge, none of us could sit on a jury. It’s our duty to judge. God, through His Holy Spirit has given to some Christians the special gift of discernment. The gift is used to make judgements.
I’m constantly observing people to determine/judge their personality profile so I know better how to communicate with them. So don’t be so foolish by not understanding what Jesus said.
I’ve never lived in the Mormon culture but my understanding is that it’s one of the most judgmental groups around. Isn’t there some sort of morality police at BYU? I bet there’s a whole lot of judging going on at that little enclave of Mormonism.
And BTW, doesn’t your Mormon bishop judge people when he’s determining who gets a ticket to get into the temple? Doesn’t your bishop make a habit of shaking down teenagers by asking personal questions that he probably shouldn’t be asking without parents present?
FoF said,
We do have differant gospels and their is a differance between our gospels, Our gospel, the Christian Gospel boils down to Grace alone with out works, where the Mormon gospel boils down to works.
Mormonism teaches Grace PLUS WORKS, Notice The works part, I will focus on works that must be done according to mormon leaders/presdients/prophets. Sadly Many LDS avoid mentiong the works part. I will get to what Christians believe/teach in another post, but this is serious evidence that your church does teach works despite what Mormons tend to claim about that not being true.
Read what after all we can do means.:
And
And
and
And
Now, FoF, I’m not changing the subject here and you dont need to reply to this if you dont want to, I’m just pointing it out for the purposes of showing the differances between our beliefes.
Now another reason I ask about Grace is this, Mormonism teaches that their is no forgiveness for those who commit murder.
In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught,
I feel sorry for the Mormons and the bondage they are under. there is really no hopeful outcome for latter-day saints through vicarious temple ordinances.
According to what they teach, there is no hope for the person who commits murder (according to Mormon doctrine, doctrines of salvation, miracle of forgiveness and teachings of the prophet). Yet I wonder–have the Mormons ever given any thought to what happened to J Smith? In D and C 135:4 he says his conscience is void of offence towards God and all men, and he says “I shall die innocent.” Yet in history of the church 7:102-103 it says J Smith killed 2 people. Please explain how that is dying innocent and with out offence to God or man.
Please also explain where Joseph went if a murderer cannot be forgiven? The Bible teaches us God took Moses home, yet he killed a man in cold blood in exodus. king David had Bathsheba’s husband murdered so he could have her, yet God said in acts 13:22 “David is a man after my own heart.” 1st John 1:9 says “if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” the “He” is God. Murder falls under both sin and unrighteousness. Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie; therefore there is only bondage according to Mormonism.
1st peter 3:15 tells us to give every man an answer for the hope that lies within us. I ask where or what is that hope within Mormonism if there is no salvation for certain people, no forgiveness for certain sins?
I also see no grace in Mormonism because here is a list of works we must do, If we dont do these we wont attain the highest heaven, so how is that grace?
The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
Notice it says “Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.” Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. We are not repentant if we don’t sustain the authorities of the church and don’t love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.
If we do not do these things, we cannot be saved, Grace is free and comes as a result of God loving us, Not because of the works we do. More for you later FoF.
FoF,
To establish your criteria for “Christian” you keep talking about Christ… but which Christ?!
Do. You. Not. Understand. That. We. Are. Not. Talking. About. The. Same. Jesus. ?!
Your criteria for defining “Christian” is bunk because we are not even building on the same foundation.
How do you NOT see this?! Please acknowledge that either we serve a false Jesus from the one you speak of or lose all credibility to the investigators you are trying so desperately to save.