The December 2013 issue of the Mormon Church’s Ensign magazine contains an article by John Welch titled, “The Articles of Faith and the Life of Joseph Smith.” In this article, Dr. Welch goes through the 13 Articles of Faith (canonized in the Mormon scripture The Pearl of Great Price) to help readers see Joseph Smith’s life “in a meaningful framework.” By considering the historical events that accompanied the founding of Mormonism, today’s Mormons can better understand “some key doctrines of the restored gospel” as outlined by Joseph Smith in these Articles. To that end, Dr. Welch invites his readers to “consider some ways in which the Articles of Faith and the life of Joseph Smith are aligned.”
The Articles of Faith were first published in 1842, in the Mormon periodical Times and Seasons. They were taken from a letter that Joseph Smith had written in the spring of that year to John Wentworth, the editor of the Chicago Democrat
. Nine years later, in 1851, these same Articles of Faith were included in The Pearl of Great Price, a collection of Joseph Smith’s writings that were not yet canonized. The Pearl of Great Price became a standard work (scripture) of the Mormon Church in 1880, making the Articles of Faith official doctrine of the Church from that time onward (Church History in the Fulness of Times, Religion 341-343, 257).
The Articles of Faith today are mostly unchanged from when Joseph Smith affirmed them in his letter to John Wentworth, but a significant change was made to Article 4 sometime between the 1888 and 1928 editions of The Pearl of Great Price.
Articles 3 and 4 as originally written by Joseph Smith, canonized as scripture, and declared “official doctrine” by the Mormon Church read as follows:
“We believe that, through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
“We believe that these ordinances are: First, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; Second, Repentance; Third, Baptism by immerssion for the remission of sins; Fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (The Pearl of Great Price, 1888, 121)
Joseph Smith’s declaration was that the salvation of mankind (on man’s part) was achieved by obedience to laws and four distinct ordinances of the gospel — specifically defined as faith, repentance, baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Article of Faith 4 was changed in later years. Now the dual Articles read (additions in bold for clarity):
“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
“We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Articles of Faith 3-4, The Pearl of Great Price)
Therefore, the doctrinal declaration in the 4th Article of Faith was changed. It no longer states that mankind may be saved by obedience to four specific ordinances of the gospel. Now mankind may be saved, it indicates, by obedience to an unspecified set of ordinances, with just the first of these being the four ordinances that previously comprised the whole requirement.
Marion Romney, then a member of the First Presidency speaking at General Conference in 1974, defined what the word “saved” means in the 3rd Article of Faith:
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirms as its Third Article of Faith…
“In these remarks I shall set forth some views of the church of Jesus Christ on this subject.
“Saved as here used means resurrected and returned as a sanctified, celestialized, immortal soul to the presence and society of God, there to pursue an endless course of eternal progress.” (“How Men Are Saved,” General Conference, October 1974)
When Joseph Smith first wrote the Articles of Faith in the spring of 1842, temple ordinances (endowments, eternal marriages, sealings) were not fully developed doctrines of the Church – they were not yet required for salvation. But that changed.
“…the ordinance of [temple] sealing is an absolute, and that without it there can be no salvation in the eternal world, no eternal life.” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Ordinances of the Gospel,” cited in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, 204)
“The temple blessings are as essential for each of us as our baptism. For this reason, we are to prepare ourselves that we may be clean to enter into the temple of God” (Robert D. Hales, “Temples are essential to eternal plan of happiness,” Church News, November 19, 2005, 5).
“Temple ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world are for the salvation and exaltation of God’s children. It is important that the saving ordinances not be altered or changed, because all of those who will be exalted, from the first man, Adam, to the last, must be saved on the same principles.” (Royden G. Derrick, Temples in the Last Days, 36)
“We must do more than just say we believe in Jesus Christ; we must follow him. All people, regardless of their level of righteousness, will be saved from death because of the Resurrection of Christ. However, in order to attain the highest degree of glory in the resurrection, we need to ‘come unto Christ, and be perfected in him’ (Moroni 10:32). We come unto Christ by having faith in him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, receiving other saving priesthood ordinances, obeying the commandments, and keeping the covenants we make with our Heavenly Father.” (Preparing for Exaltation Teacher’s Manual, 39)
“The Lord Himself has revealed what is essential for the salvation and exaltation of His children. One of these essentials is that temples are to be erected for the performance of ordinances that cannot be performed in any other place… All of these priesthood temple ordinances [i.e., baptism for the dead, endowments, celestial marriages and sealings] are essential for the salvation and exaltation of our Father in Heaven’s children.” (Howard W. Hunter, “A Temple-Motivated People,” Ensign, March 2004)
“All of our efforts in proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the Saints, and redeeming the dead lead to the holy temple. This is because the temple ordinances are absolutely crucial; we cannot return to God’s presence without them.” (Ibid.)
In 1842 Joseph Smith taught there were four ordinances required for the salvation of mankind; today the Mormon Church says these four ordinances are just the beginning.
It’s too bad that Dr. Welch’s December 2013 Ensign article reflected the modern version of the Articles of Faith rather than the Articles as Joseph Smith wrote them. Dr. Welch missed an opportunity to further enrich his theme of “[bringing] to light the main stages in Joseph Smith’s prophetic mission and inspired life” by neglecting the way in which today’s 4th Article of Faith and the life of Joseph Smith are historically unaligned.
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For more information on the topic of salvation:
Introduction to Salvation at mrm.org
“Salvation” links page at mrm.org
One Door to Salvation by Charles Spurgeon
Many people like to think that the restoration occurred rather suddenly, with a full set of blue-prints handed over to Joseph Smith including all the doctrines, ordinances, and organization that would be revealed in the last days. In reality, it was a fairly drawn out process that took place over decades. Along with that process, the understanding of the gospel and the plan of salvation grew among the saints and the prophet. From my perspective, that does not seem surprising or unrealistic.
I think what may be helpful to understand here is our belief about the requirements for entering the Celestial Kingdom and for being exalted or being given the gift of “eternal life.” To enter the Celestial Kingdom, a person must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of his sins, be baptized by immersion for the remission of sins, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and endure to the end. Doing those things will result in one entering the Kingdom of God, or the Celestial Kingdom. To enter the highest degree of glory within the Celestial Kingdom, one must receive the ordinances and covenants of the temple, including celestial marriage, and keep those covenants.
I think that the pivotal point here is how “salvation” was and is defined according to our doctrine. That definition changed as the understanding and perspective of the plan of salvation changed over time. Initially, it was largely defined as entering the Celestial Kingdom. After the ordinances of the temple were revealed, that definition changed to entering the highest degree of glory within the Celestial Kingdom. And I think that increased understanding of the plan of salvation and what “salvation” truly meant is behind the change in the fourth article of faith. The only change in the third article was the removal of one comma.
The other thing to keep in mind is that, according to our doctrine and understanding, all this is made possible through the atonement of Jesus Christ as Article of Faith 3 states. Without the infinite and eternal sacrifice of the Son of God, no degree of obedience or repentance or faith would result in any degree of salvation or forgiveness.
I do appreciate this article as it demonstrates the fact that, despite what grindael claims, we believe salvation is generally considered to be exaltation and eternal life, or living in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. And that is only possible through the atonement of Jesus Christ.
“We come unto Christ by having faith in him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, receiving other saving priesthood ordinances, obeying the commandments, and keeping the covenants we make with our Heavenly Father.” ”
So “receiving other saving priesthood ordinances” is an interesting phrase to read. Seems Jesus is not the only one doing the saving.
Fof F said , ” Along with that process the understanding of the gospel and plan of salvation
grew among the saints and prophet . That does not seem surprising or unrealistic .”
That fits with what we just learned the last few Mondays with examples of this process of
understanding the Mormon ” restored” gospel because we see it play out in the teachings
about Negroes beginning with Smith and degenerating from there with his successors .
Great example of the counterfeit gospel of Mormonism relative to salvation/exaltation .
Bottom line : given the way Mormon leaders have taught about Blacks , we can’t take Fof F ‘s
view on what he attempts to convey about the atonement of Jesus very seriously . All the
talk about gospel ordinances from Mormon leaders and yet they mangled true true gospel
teachings about these with the way they treated Negroes .
FoF,
Here’s a sincere question. You wrote this:
“I think that the pivotal point here is how “salvation” was and is defined according to our doctrine. That definition changed as the understanding and perspective of the plan of salvation changed over time.”
Do you see how this could be viewed as your leaders ‘making it up as they go along’?
And I have to return to the question I hounded you on before, which you answered before resounding, “No!” (specifically, you answered can you be saved without doing works): What good is Christ’s sacrifice if we don’t do anything?
Your definition of salvation gets us to a middle level of heaven, where we get to look at everyone who did better than us and spend eternity in regret. Hmmm…. Sounds lovely, or alternatively, a bit like hell. Reminds me a particular story in the Bible wherein Jesus tells us that we are stuck in the afterlife and the dead in hell warns the living to tell his relatives to believe now so they won’t be stuck in hell.
Before responding, consider the first question I asked in this post: does your statement not lend itself to an interpretation that your church made it up as they moved along. The rest of my post is in better context with that one answered.
I’m curious how FOF rationalizes the 2nd anointing as that completely bypasses Christ.
This article of faith change is mormonism personified. Making it up as they go along. When is this “fullness” of the gospel ever going to be full? It seems to keep filling and filling and filling an endless pot.
Its like the “new and everlasting” covenant that keeps having parts removed or changed every few decades. It will be interesting to see how the temple ordinances change again in 20 years.
My prediction will be veiling women’s faces will probably be thrown out. Anyone else wanna take a stab? I also predict tithing and word of wisdom will cease to be requirements for entry to the temple. They’ve already subtly changed the wow a few years back and I foresee them changing it yet again.
Wherever Mormons are in the next life, I don’t want to be there . Its hard to be around them now or try to even talk to them.
Fof when I read your posts , I think of my dad’s words , ” he is like talking to a wall ”
And I understand where you are coming from.
I would like your background, born in the church ? convert ? served a mission ? any leadership positions ? Ever inactive ? I don’t really know anything about you . Knowing you will help me understand the roots of your knowledge .
Both Parents active? Dad serve a mission ? how about brothers ? Are you a Utah Mormon ? or in the mission field ?
Myself in the church from 1975 -2011.
OK, time for the falcon to do his summary of points made continuously over the last five years.
1. Is there any evidence that what the SLC sect of Mormonism practices and believes today about salvation, is what the first century Christian church practiced and believed about salvation?
2. Which sect of Mormonism has the “real” restored gospel? Supply some evidence for any of you belonging to any of the 100 or so (Mormon) groups.
3. Why has there been a continuous roll-out of the principles associated with the Mormon restored gospel and Mormon “salvation”?
4. Why is there two levels to Mormon salvation? The first level is the salvation that everyone who ever lived gets some (level) of. The second is the god maker program, by which a Mormon earns their salvation through various rites of the LDS church and other works related activities.
5. Why are some LDS members choosing to opt out of the god maker program in this life, choosing to do the “work” in the next? Seems like a way to beat the system.
6. Since Adolf Hitler was baptized by proxy in a Mormon temple, will he have the opportunity to become a god?
This continuous roll-out of the restored gospel in Mormonism is a really weak point for the SLC sect. At least the FLDS have stuck with Utah style Mormonism. And added to that, are the CofC and Temple Lot sects who hold pretty tight to original Mormonism.
Please forgive me, but Mormonism is just way too flaky.
@falcon
thou art forgiven 😉
FOF said,
Without the infinite and eternal sacrifice of the Son of God, no degree of obedience or repentance or faith would result in any degree of salvation or forgiveness.
I say,
If I understand you correctly you are merely saying that Jesus atonement plus those things yields salvation (in various degrees).
According to this sub-christian view the precious blood of Jesus is a necessary but insufficient cause. In order to be effective in his effort to save us Jesus needs our help. He is a weak and needy wannabe savior albeit with a good heart.
Contrast that pitiful picture of a week Jesus with the strong Lord of my salvation who saves me by his sacrifice alone..
quote:
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
(Php 1:6)
and
But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
(Tit 3:4-7)
end quote
peace
Falcon, you are forgiven, but do you need to do say the Rosary 10 times or something with your Catholic backround? 🙂
The only evidence I expect you will get is in the form of a testimony.
I rather like the idea of choosing to do the work in the afterlife. Unlike Psacal’s Wager, we sure can enjoy better odds that way.
You know, I was reading FoF’s post again, and this struck me as interesting. Here’s what he said: “Without the infinite and eternal sacrifice of the Son of God, no degree of obedience or repentance or faith would result in any degree of salvation or forgiveness.”
He said, “Without the infinite and eternal sacrifice of the Son of God, no degree of… FAITH [caps are my alteration] would result in any degree of salvation or forgiveness.”
So faith is apprently useless, too. Is he suggesting Christ saved everyone regardless of what they believe, let alone what they do?
I don’t argue the amount of faith makes a difference one way or the other, but the existence of faith does. I believe Jesus died to save everyone, but without faith, His sacrifice is wasted. It does not sound like Faith of Fathers is saying this. It really sounds like FoF believes in a virtual universal resurrection, something that works to eliminate or lesson the role of faith in the role of our eternal destinies. (One could therefore argue that this lessoning of faith with the existence of the requirement for prescribed works to warrant ultimate salvation/exaltation puts the emphasis on works rather than faith, perhaps to the point of faith becoming obsolete.)
I dunno. I could be wrong on that, and I am sure LDS will deny they limit the role of faith, but I find FoF’s comment revealing something I don’t think he would like to admit: that faith is no more valuable than works in his salvation.
MJP said,
I am sure LDS will deny they limit the role of faith,
I say,
Actually FOF is pretty adamant that he feels that our works are what increases our faith and makes it effective.
So in his world you have Jesus atonement depending on all the things he mentioned to save us….(repentance, faith, works, baptism etc) and the things mentioned are ultimately dependent on his works to strengthen and make them effective.
So his works become the all important lynch pin to his salvation and Jesus’ sacrifice becomes a mere afterthought. Granted he would be quick to point out that it was necessary in some mysterious anamorphic intangible way
peace
MJP,
I think you’ve got it right. What FOF is talking about is universal salvation with different levels. It’s sort of like the Free Masons moving up the ladder as they gain more knowledge and wisdom. It’s all revealed in the temple, right?
I would say to any lurker who has reached the contemplative stage, go to the NT and do a compare and contrast regarding the salvation revealed there and what you’ve been taught in your particular sect of Mormonism.
The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It says, it is by faith that we’ve been saved through grace and not by works that anyone can boast. The entire gospel message has to do with sinners recognizing their hopeless condition and being reconciled through faith, by the blood of Jesus.
For Mormons, who are fed a steady diet of doing works to earn a reward, which is personal deification, the message of the gospel is just too simple. It’s not meant to be difficult. Jesus did the difficult part for us that’s why God’s free gift is all the more amazing. God loved us so much that He have us His only begotten Son that who so ever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. That’s what the Bible teaches. You can either believe what the Bible says or you can follow any number of false prophets to spiritual destruction.
The LDS plan of salvation cannot be found in the Bible.
I’ve not read all the comments, I don’t have the energy to. I’m not going to respond to any one in particular other than the prompting of the holy spirit urging me to bear my statement of faith that by the grace of God, the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross on my behalf, I am sealed in the spirit and counted as righteous not because of anything I have or will do but because of EVERYTHING Christ did and I have assurance that the day I accepted my sinfulness, God’s holiness and Christ’s sacrifice my eternal life with God the Father began and it will continue from that moment throughout eternity. I was dead in my sin but I was made alive in Christ. I don’t worry when I fail. I never wonder if I’m doing all I can do. I rest in the peace of the good news of Christ victory over death and I live (albeit imperfectly) from that truth to love and to act not to gain anything but to glorify the one true God!!!!
There’s something fishy here . So sometime between 1888 and 1928 Mormon leaders proceeded
to alter the 4th Article to read such so that they could make room for more ” restored” gospel
ordinances required from eternal life , thus adding to the original canonized four ? This means
that for years Mormon missionaries went out and proclaimed the gospel of Jesus Christ
telling their audience that Jesus Himself had restored His same church its officers and
gospel as He had established 1700 years earlier . Then Missionaries went out later with a
gospel message that now there were more ordinances necessary to obey if people wanted to
receive eternal life ?
I can just see the first Mormon Missionaries preaching about salvation and using the New
Testament to proclaim the necessary ordinances : Faith , repentance , baptism , and the
laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost . Then years later they returned with more
requirements in more scripture explaining that the dead apostles of Jesus original church with
their salvation message ( Rom 1:16) sufficed for a while but now there are “living” apostles with
more scripture and more required ordinances ? Sounds like a case of 2Cor 11:13 coming true .
Sadly , but people actually fell for the product these Missionaries were selling — a counterfeit .
Mike,
Like I said, it’s the slow roll out. These Mormons just claim to have gotten more “light”, which you know, is the JW claim when their failed prophecies are shown to be what they are.
The Christian faith is not a slow roll out. We read the NT and we see the same gospel as that which we acknowledge today.
Jesus is the revelation, period! There’s no where else to go for rituals, rites or revelation that can add to what Christ has done for us on the cross. Mormons just can’t seem to wrap their brains around the idea of Christ’s revelation, that we can’t earn salvation. That’s their main complaint about the NT revelation. It’s just too easy. They don’t understand that it’s a gift. We don’t earn a gift. If salvation could be earned, than it would not be a gift.
But then we aren’t talking about the same gospel of salvation through Christ Jesus Our Lord. In Mormon SLC LDS lore, Jesus atonement meant that it was now possible for them to earn personal deification. There’s a reason why questioning Mormons, who turn to the Bible, can’t find the Mormon concept of salvation.
Joseph Smith didn’t restore anything. He just made up his own religion and as he went along he tweaked it to meet his latest creative idea. That’s the reason for all of the changes and the mess that’s Mormonism.
@falcon and mike
hence the “new” in the new and everlasting covenant.
My family couldn’t comprehend at all that salvation is a gift. I tried over and over to explain that its something that can’t be earned. It fell on deaf ears.
5th– we get to the same place either way. Faith is minimized, almost by necessity, in the LDS program.
Falcon– yup. And what’s left out by most LDS is that everyone who does not make it to the top level will be left longingly looking up to those who did, and eternally regretting they didn’t do more. A bit like he’ll, I think.
Rvales– amen.
Mike– making it up as they go always along? Nah. Nothing to worry about for the missionaries.
Falcon, you’re absolutely correct about the way latter days false prophets ( Mormon / Jw )
try to rationalize their vacillating doctrinal teaching track record . It’s reassuring to know
that the gospel of salvation that Jesus’ apostles preached in their travels contained the truths
people needed to accept to be forgiven by God and given the gift of eternal life with all the
fullest blessings thereof was efficient then and is still so today . It’s all about Jesus , no secret
rituals in temples , no confessing a latter day prophet who offers new teachings supposedly
which are essential gospel truths now due to be revealed etc . The successful latter days false
prophets have a similar m.o. — important gospel truths restored by them , they alone are God’s
mouthpiece and pilot Jesus’ Body the church in these latter days . It’s refreshing to know that
we don’t need any of them .
You’re right about Joseph Smith not restoring anything . What he created was a church and a
gospel but not the same original one established by Jesus 1700 years earlier .
What Joseph created was not really , ” the restored church ” of Jesus Christ, but instead
it was , ” the substitute church ” of Jesus Christ .
johnnyboy ,
Keep praying for your family . There’s multitudes of Mormons who are discovering that their
leaders are’nt what they claimed to be , and are leaving . So there is hope for your family .
Right now they may not have the strength to admit to you that they see some serious problems
with Mormonism . Human pride can do that etc . But don’t give up ! We’re praying for them .
There was a great tract published by EMFJ ( Ex Mormons for Jesus ) many years ago . It is
titled : ” The Pearl of Great Price ” . It is a simple yet unique way to reason with a Mormon
because it was written by a ex Mormon . It may help your family understand about salvation
as a free gift . I have some if you want one .
Once again, FOF fails to comprehend his own doctrine. Let’s take his very wrong assessment of the CK, for example. He says,
Unfortunately, Jo and Sidney told all about the Celestial Kingdom in 1832, long before Jo invented the Temple Ritual. In that “revelation” he says,
He also wrote,
So, this was the “Celestial Kingdom” in 1832. Then, in 1843 it somehow changed? Jo then added,
The CK got “expanded” by two degrees in 11 years! So God just forgot to mention how important marriage was in the first “vision”? The first “vision” above, wasn’t defined as just “entering” the Celestial Kingdom. (Nice try but epic fail). It is actually a pretty detailed set of instructions on who is to get there, and what they must do. (Gain it by works). What “commandments”? All of Jo’s “rules and regulations”. Nothing there about marriage though. But then, Jo was only contemplating adultery back then. It took him awhile to figure out how to explain it and add it to the list of works.
As for my supposed error about what the Mormon Atonement is, FOF again fails to take into account the Book of Mormon verse which reads that men are saved ONLY AFTER ALL THEY CAN DO. Nothing has changed folks. FOF is still wrong. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. (It’s a new thread folks, so be prepared for the same old opinions and blather). Salvation is only universal RESURRECTION in Mormonism. EXALTATION, is this,
“We believe that, through the atonement of Christ, all mankind MAY be saved … but ONLY by obedience to ALL the RULES AND REGULATIONS OF THE MORMON CORPORATION.
Jo kept adding on new “rules and regulations” as he went along. In 1832, there was no “rule” or “regulation” about marriage to get into the Celestial Kingdom. By 1843, the Mormon God had changed his mind and made it a new “rule”. This he did to accommodate Jo’s adultery. (Shades of Warren Jeffs!) This changes nothing, and what I have written I stand by, as FOF hasn’t ever shown how I’m wrong about any of it.
That Article of “Faith”, was altered so that Mormons could cement their gospel of works.
grindael,
Well let’s see. How can a Mormon resolve the “slow roll out” of the LDS plan of salvation?
BTW, I am more and more starting to identify specifically LDS because “Mormonism” is not monolithic. There are all sorts of plans of salvation when we begin to examine the various sects of Mormonism. They all think they have the prophet that has spoken the truth.
Some of these sects wouldn’t buy into Smith’s slow roll out scheme as he was given more and more light. Others of these sects wouldn’t go along with the plan when in 1890 the “prophet” slammed the LDS car in reverse. The FLDS are the real true blue followers of Brigham Young as they hold to polygamy as a means of salvation and Adam-God as the basic doctrine on God’s nature.
Here’s where the LDS have a real problem and I think I know how they resolve it. I think they do this LDS head-fake and skirt the issue by saying that they don’t have to “practice” polygamy, they just have to “agree” with the D&C provision requiring it.
Let’s not forget that polygamy is central to a male making it to the top of the CK where he will be seated in all his glory as a god. That doctrine of salvation hasn’t gone away. Our LDS friends don’t like to talk about it but it’s another one of those crazy uncle prophets and doctrines they try to keep locked in the attic.
I’m back to my broken record. Where is any of this in the NT? Is isn’t there. Is it in the writings of the Church Fathers or even the heretics? No. No amount of spinning conspiracy theories will provide a sufficient answer for the LDS member who is seriously questioning what his religion teaches and practices.
It is very telling that FOF with all of his academic credentials can’t even discern the simplest facts regarding the LDS religion. It’s called spiritual blindness and can only be healed by the Blood of Christ and a personal calling by the Holy Spirit through the Father.
Can the Mormon prophets be trusted?
That’s really the question in regards to not only anything they teach or proclaim but of particular importance when it comes to the most basic questions of “Who is God?” and “What is God’s plan of salvation to a lost world?”.
Because the way Mormonism shakes-out is that the NT, the BofM, the writings of the Church Fathers, Christian traditions, Christian history and even what some Mormon prophets themselves taught, isn’t all that important.
If what I just wrote seems sort of confusing it points to the reason why Mormon doctrine is such a mess. I remember when I first started my study of the history and doctrine of Mormonism, concluding that Mormons were a pack of liars. I soon learned that the average Mormon is totally in the dark about the religion they have pledged their time, treasure and devotion to.
The reason was also because it was is hard to nail anything definitive down about the Mormon religious doctrine in particular. It doesn’t help that Mormon leadership and apologists want to hide as much of the embarrassing facts from the general public and the members as possible.
I must qualify all of this by saying that the LDS church in particular likes to hide, obfuscate and where ever necessary lie about Mormon doctrine and history. I don’t find that to be true with the CofC on one end of the Mormon spectrum or the FLDS on the other (end).
I think it’s only fair to sort out the average Mormon from the leadership. What I’ve learned as I’ve come to know many former Mormons who post here, is that all of them had to go through a voyage of discovery regarding a religion which they once had a strong testimony of.
We hope and pray that those who we have affectionately come to call the “lurkers” will consider the NT teaching on the doctrine of God, the doctrine of man, and God’s plan of salvation to reconcile a sinful world to Himself.
Grant Palmer discusses his “ah ha” moments in learning about his Mormon faith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsvZooc4Bc
Grindael,
I recommend studying Piaget’s stages of development. Specifically, concrete operational stage.
It is OK if you do not understand how it works. Keep trying. It really is not that difficult.
It is curious how you choose just one specific verse from the Book of Mormon upon which to base you argument and ignore the dozen or so others that contradict your argument.
Again, keep trying to figure out how the following two states are not contradictory or mutually exclusive:
1. We are saved 100% by grace.
2. We must do works to be saved.
The effort to understand this is truly worth the investment of time and energy.
The point of Sharon’s article is the change in the reading of article of faith 4. It initially read, “these ordinances are….” Later, it was changed to read, “the first principles and ordinances are….” Why was the change in the wording made? When Joseph wrote the articles of faith in his letter to Wentworth, the ordinances of the temple had not been instituted yet. Therefore, it makes some sense that a change in perspective or understanding occurred between these two events, if not with Joseph, with the other members of the church.
Not really that complicated.
A word in response to the countless claims that such ordinances are somehow relying on something other than Christ for salvation. I have always thought this criticism was silly, to be truthful. If one understands the ordinances and their basis, he understands the role Christ plays in each of those ordinances and the associated covenants. Each ordinance binds the individual to God the Father and to Christ by covenant and enables the individual to become one with Them by focusing the individual in particular ways on the Father and Son. This argument regarding the ordinances is like claiming that placing portraits of Christ in one’s bedroom, kitchen, living room, and automobile is distracting a person from Christ by focusing on portraits. It really is that silly, in my opinion.
MJP- you ask a couple good question. First, regarding my statement that without the atonement, nothing we do would improve out lot one bit. Maybe I should not have included the word “faith” in that sentence. My point is that without Christ and His atonement, there is absolutely nothing we could do that could save us from physical or spiritual death- we would be condemned to be cast out from God’s presence for eternity. That was what I was attempting to say. I was not saying that faith is worthless. Please don’t try so hard to spin my words to fit your arguments about me and our faith. Maybe you were not, and it was an honest question. If so, I hope my clarification helps.
Question two- about the resurrection. I do believe in a universal resurrection, and that is our doctrine- all people will be resurrected, good and bad. And I have always been curious why other Christians do not also believe this (some do, many don’t). In my opinion, Paul’s words in I Corinthians 15 could not be more clear on a universal resurrection:
“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”
Paul is clearly comparing the fall and the resurrection. And he states that all men die. And he makes a direct parallel between the death of all men and the resurrection through Christ. Just as “all men” die, “shall all be made alive.” He even states that men will be resurrected “in their own order.”
I have never felt I had a good explanation for why this does not clearly teach a universal resurrection. Anybody care to help me see how we don’t get universal resurrection through Christ out of this passage?
So let’s break this down. Deconstruct. Task analyze.
To make it simple, there are three levels to LDS heaven. For simplicity sake we will call them silver, gold and platinum.
Everyone who has ever lived gets a shot at silver. Folks like rick, Mike, Sharon and me get gold. We’re Christian believers and despite the fact that we may drink coffee and a few minor things like that, we’re overall pretty good people. We have works. We get the gold level.
Now FOF, being a temple Mormon and doing the system, gets platinum. He gets to become a god if he does enough, his wife a goddess, they get their own planetary system and their family is reunited forever. They get to procreate spirit offspring. His wife is going to be pregnant for eternity.
Now grindael, especially grindael, Ironman, Johnnyboy, Kate and the other former Mormons, they’re going to Mormon hell, Outer Darkness! This is because they, having had a testimony, left the LDS one true church.
Now getting back to rick, Mike, Sharon and myself, if FOF or some other Mormon, hardy and well-met, should proxy baptize for us, then we get a chance at platinum. Now the great thing about this is that we just saved ourselves a ton of money in this world because we didn’t pony-up the 10% plus we got to drink coffee and alcohol if we so choose to do so.
As a side bar, the LDS church needs to find a way to extract the 10% from the estates of those it proxy baptizes. It’s only right, I think.
OK now there is one other special classification of LDS Mormon. These are the ones that get eternal security. In-other-words, they have been deemed by the hierarchy of the LDS one true church to have done enough in this world and they receive this special designation via a temple ritual that stamps them now and forever gods!
I think I’ve nailed this down. It must be remembered that this system didn’t come fully birthed. It took time to develop. There have been some fits and starts but this is where the system has landed presently.
How did I do? Did I make this all clear enough?
FOF arguing about faith vs works is like staring into the mirrors in the sealing room…. it just goes on and on and on for eternity. This argument will never end and its been going on for years on this blog.
To all lurkers: the gospel of Christ is pretty straightforward. The doctrine of salvation is a gift. You can’t earn it.
@falcon
actually outer darkness only applies to people who have denied Jesus Christ after literally seeing him.
so really there are only a select few people who get to have fun in outer darkness.
And since Jesus never presented himself to Tom phillips in his second anointing, even he can’t be sent to outer darkness.
WOMP WOMP WOMP
This Kevin Kraut is a rare jewel of Mormon fundamentalism. He’s the son of Ogden Kraut whose name I stumbled across listening to a six part series interview on “Mormon Stories” of his plural wife Anne B. Wilde.
Kevin is a great teller of stories and anecdotes. He’d be the kind of guy you’d run into in a bait shop in northern Minnesota or Wisconsin telling about the 60 inch muskie he caught, but then it jumped out of the boat before he could wapp it with his miniature baseball bat or the 30 point buck that he missed shooting because a squirrel jumped on his head just when he was pulling the trigger.
I find him entertaining in a perverse sort of way. He’s a different breed of Mormon. Guys like him come from the school of pre-manifesto Mormonism.
It’s four minutes in length and related to our topic here in that he tells about a supposed confession that Bruce McConkie made to his (Kevin’s) dad Ogden just before Bruce died.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI4nsngvcGw
johnnyboy,
I am so thankful for you former LDS folks who can straighten me out on these matters. Now are you absolutely sure that according to the LDS church, you’re not going to Outer Darkness? I thought that’s where apostate Mormons went and why so many questioning Mormons are scared to death to even probe the veracity of the One True Church.
Wait a second. I’m going to look it up. Don’t go away. I’ll be back in a jiffy. WOOOOOOOSH!!!!
WOOOOOOOOOSH…………I’m back and more confused than ever. I went to this site called Mormon Research Ministry and there’s a good article there on the topic however I’m still a little confused. I think maybe this is one of those topics where a Mormon can fill it up with their own meaning.
http://www.mrm.org/heaven-and-hell
We’re having a little, maybe a lot of fun with this, but let me say to our Mormon lurkers. Hell is no joke! Coming to Jesus in faith is the only means of achieving satisfaction for our sins. No amount of sincerity or works can close the gap between our sin and God’s demand for perfection. That’s why only God can make the offer of eternal life to all of those who would come to Jesus in faith.
Let me repeat from before; God the Father did not intend to make this a difficult arduous process. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God the Father raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. The Holy Spirit will indwell you resulting in your being born again. It goes without saying that when we recognize that we are sinners we repent (of our sins).
When I finally gave up and came to Christ in faith, I knew I was a sinner and needed a Savior. I made a simple deceleration of faith to God and my life changed. I went from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive in Christ.
You can experience new life in Christ too right now. You don’t have to have all of the answers before coming to the Lord Jesus Christ in faith.
Ironman1995,
So if the LDS did make it to heaven (your idea of heaven) does that mean that you’d prefer to be in hell?
MJP,
I know Faithoffathers has already answered this but just like someone called me about my misreading Grindael’s comments the other day comparing the LDS with the Prussian army, you do need to reread the comment. It specifically states that “Without the infinite and eternal sacrifice of the Son of God” faith cannot save us. Meaning that if Jesus did not perform the Atonement, ie suffer and die for our sins, even faith in Him would not save us because He did not perform the saving works for us. Our faith in Him relies on the fact that He has paid for our sins, which was done only through the Atonement.
Johnnyboy,
Outer darkness is for those who deny the Holy Ghost as explained in the Bible (Matt. 12:31; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10) and further in the LDS scriptures.
Falcon,
You are taking the place of Jesus in judgement with what you are saying. All of the LDS that I know would not say that the ex-LDS on this site are going to outer darkness mainly because we do not know anything about how converted they were to the LDS church. That judgment is Jesus’ and His alone. Just remember – I said all the members I know, there may be some who would put that judgement on them.
“A word in response to the countless claims that such ordinances are somehow relying on something other than Christ for salvation.”
What don’t you get, FoF?
The phrase “other saving ordinances” speaks volumes. That you admitted you cannot attain exaltation (our version of salvation) without performing works speaks volumes. There are countless other quotes stating that it is not just faith or grace that gets you there.
Its a simple proposition. You rely on works, and therefore, by necessity, faith alone, nor grace alone, saves you. The word game that you utilize stating grace and faith allows one to perform the works is hollow. It does not change the simple reality that works are required in addition to faith and grace.
Wake up. Open your eyes. Its not complicated, and it was never intended to be.
FoF,
You never addressed my first question: do you see how we can view your faith as being made up as it is moving along? Your quote, which I highlighted above, demonstrates the rationale for it. You basically state that revelation was not instantaneous, but rather took a long time. I am not asking for agreement on the conclusion, but rather for the allowance of the possibility for this interpretation. I do expect an answer on this one.
As to the faith comment, it was an honest question and observation. Fair enough on your rebuttal, but even there you do not address the crux of the issue: that faith is no more valuable than works in your faith.
As to the second question you do answer, I would answer that resurrection means entering heaven. All will face God and answer to Him, but that is not resurrection. That is judgment. Resurrection is overcoming death and judgment is where we will find if we are resurrected and achieve eternal life or rather condemned to death. We are therefore not all resurrected.
Ralph,
You say this: “Our faith in Him relies on the fact that He has paid for our sins, which was done only through the Atonement.” But to receive the benefit of his payment, it is not just faith that is in action. The Atonement only gets you a chance, and it is very much a faith + works situation to get you exalted. Faith without the works doesn’t help you much, therefore the faith cannot be that much more valuable than the works.
I know well you argue that the faith and grace leads you to do works, but as I told FoF, this is a hollow argument. One can perform works without the faith and no one will know the difference. Look at the fellow who is behind the British law suit against Monson. He’s already achieved exaltation, yet he now is a non-believer. This demonstrates the fallacy of that position quite well.
Ralph,
I have no idea how you could get what you got out of what I wrote. Follow that?
How does my comment constitute taking the place of Jesus in judging former Mormons? I think you’re making a false accusation in an attempt to score cheap points. Bad on you Ralph!
Please explain what it means that it all depends on how “converted they were to the LDS church”. I don’t get that at all. Are you saying level of former commitment has something to do with their judgement within the LDS system.
I’m just asking this because you tend to be a little vague.
Anyway what I’m really interested in is whether or not you are at that point in your spiritual life where you will recognize who Jesus is and come to Him in faith? You’ve had multiple presentations of the gospel as it is written in the NT but it appears that you are continuing to resist God’s call on your life. I’ve always been concerned not only for your spiritual welfare but that of your family. As the spiritual head of your family you do have a responsibility to know the truth and share it with those close to you. Something is causing you to resist and I think it has it’s roots in the concept of the forever family.
If the Son of God makes you free, you will be free indeed. Don’t keep passing on this opportunity to come to Christ in faith Ralph.
Ralph , glad I don’t have to make that decision on where i end up, I do want to be with those I love and respect and trust. It was kinda a tongue in cheek comment. I am sure by then the Mormons when in the next life will be much different than they are now , as we all should be by then. Also glad Ralph you are not making that decision as well.
Hey, isn’t giving the 2nd anointing making decisions for God?
@ralph
The doctrine of outer darkness, who goes there, who are “sons of perdition” is fairly murky when you say “those who deny the holy ghost”. You must be more clear with that designation because in mormonism it is completely different than in regular Christianity. Mormons like to be vague in this definition because it allows them to guilt and shame those who have left the church. If it were the case, almost every early leader of the church would be in outer darkness. Joseph Smith LOVED to allude that those who left the church into outer darkness. But modern LDS leaders (in typical fashion) have moved away from that designation.
Denying the holy ghost means that a person must have gained a “perfect knowledge” of the divinity of the gospel. This comes through the father by the power of the holy ghost.
When leaders in the church proclaim “a perfect knowledge” they are proclaiming to know Jesus without faith (i.e. they have seen him). This was re-iterated to me by the Apostle Richard G. Scott in the MTC. A person must have a personal, literal manifestation of Jesus and then deny they have had such an experience and also openly join forces with Satan in open rebellion against Christ. Thus, having never seen Christ, Tom phillips cannot be a son of perdition.
Even mormonwiki backs me up on this one 😉
mormonwiki:
The Sons of Perdition are those who have lived as mortal men and women on the earth, have had the heavens opened to them and received a certain knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, and then have rejected the Savior, “having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:34-35; see also Doctrine and Covenants 76:31–33, 36–37).
Again, mormons love to be vague with this because it lets them scare people from leaving the church.
Well if you’re giving the 2nd anointing it means you have received the 2nd anointing which means you are GOD. So you’d be making decisions for yourself.
Johnny, silly me. Of course, that means you are just A god. Does that mean you are equal to God?
I recommend you study Brainwashing: The Science of Thought Control, and highly recommend that you seek out someone who can deprogram you. (Jesus can help). Of course, since you don’t realize that you’ve been brainwashed, this may be difficult. But Keep trying. It’s really not that difficult. Billions have already done it.
Ah, but the verse is there, isn’t it, and you have no answer for it. Deflection is ever your angle, FOF.
Keep trying to grasp that there are two levels to Mormon “salvation”. A general resurrection and Exaltation. Since a general resurrection isn’t really “salvation”, one is left with Exaltation if one really wants to be “saved” with God. The SECOND, is totally earned. You must work for it. Hence, you are NOT 100% saved by GRACE. This is not difficult. Your leaders have been teaching this for many years now. Oh, yeah, you already LOST this argument. Do you want the link?
Ditto. Want the link? Obviously you didn’t do this with the material I already gave you.
Actually, Those words, THE FIRST PRINCIPLES, (and those that follow) are a HUGE ADDITION. No, it’s not complicated. But the ramifications of what it means eludes you, as it always does with Mormon Doctrine. (Better read up on that Brainwashing thing, it will help you with this problem).
These “ordinances” NEVER relied on Christ. They rely on Mormon “priesthood”, which supersedes Christ. You see, you can SAY they rely on Christ, only if there is ONE GOD, and that Jesus is the WORD of God, incarnate. You cannot say that they rely on Christ if Christ is just one cog in a wheel that has been turning for all eternity, and that Christ is just one spirit child/god in a long line of them and is subordinate to the laws of the PRIESTHOOD as YOUR God is. Who also, according to Brigham Young is NOT all knowing either. And is really Adam. You see, FOF, you don’t focus on the BIG PICTURE. You totally IGNORE all of that, and try to whitewash Mormonism into something it is not.
You continue to do this. And you continue to do this without presenting ANY evidence that your views are correct. You just did it again. Lather, rinse, repeat, you silly boy.
And that ONLY gets everyone a RESURRECTION. ALL the rest, is NOT covered by Christ’s Atonement, it is to be EARNED. Hence these statements (repeated AGAIN AND AGAIN):
Keep reading these over and over again and perhaps it will sink in.
I don’t even get how this is up for debate.. mormon exaltation is completely earned salvation. This is basic mormonism 101. This is primary school stuff that has been taught for decades. To say otherwise is absurd.
Every mormon child knows that everyone will be resurrected and only those who “endure to the end” get exaltation.
@MJP
equal to God? Sure, why not? These days, its pretty much anything goes in mormonism. But its too bad that we don’t get to have our own planets anymore (according to the latest church essay).
I am seriously chomping at the bit to show my TBM family the church’s essays, but I’m slightly conflicted. I don’t want it to look like I’m shoving it in their faces, but I want them to know that their church is literally denouncing years and years of teachings that they grew up with. What to do?
Also, I’m finally sending in my resignation papers next week! I had my new bishop leave a message on my phone saying he wants to visit and I am gonna have to cut him off at the pass with a copy of my letter.
johnnyboy,
whoa, whoa, whoa there…………..no more planets? Huh, huh no way that’s going away. That’s part of the deal. What’s the point of being a god if you don’t have your own planets? You’re going to have to prove that one to me. Please provide documentation.
No planets! What kind of switch-o-change-o is that?
Continuous revelation indeed!
Go Johnny Go ! Glad to see you are sending in your resignation letter .
Hope it won’t be long before your family members do likewise .
I read that statement you mentioned . Just like the one about the priesthood ban on Negroes
this one is cleverly worded so as to downplay / dodge the facts , i.e. the facts being what Mormon
leaders have taught about this issue .
Mormon leaders have indeed taught that those Mormon males who are worthy to become Gods
will with their wife(s) have eternal increase for ever , with the potential of creating kingdoms also
on other planets/worlds . In other words , thru sexual relations with their wife(s) thy will be
able to populate a lot of territory with their offspring .
That doctrine does’nt sell to well to investigators hence the constant need to either deny it or
downplay it by playing word games .
Johnnyboy & Falcon,
Please read this summary I wrote some time ago, called “The Mormon Cycle of the Gods”, it may help.
As for the Sons of Perdition, Ralph is wrong. (I’ve had this conversation with him before here), and the following are excerpts that I’ve retrieved from that and other Posts. Or at least Ralph’s “prophets” disagree with him. First, read:
But Mormon “apostles” and “prophets” always claim to have the Holy Ghost. If they do not, others claim that they did. It’s in every Conference Report. And when they gave opinion, they said so. Thatcher again,
Apostates, will be sons of perdition according to Brigham Young. I have the quotes, NUMEROUS ones. Perdition is based on knowledge. It is only for those who embrace the Mormon gospel and reject it. There are qualifications for apostates who qualify for SOP status, and Young made Temple Covenants one of them and Apostasy from the Priesthood, another.
For those that just join the Church for awhile, and are not very knowledgeable about it, and leave, there may be hope for the Telestial Kingdom for them. But that is spending eternity with the dregs, the murderers, etc., with no chance to be with God. If that ain’t hell, I don’t know what is, as with all other levels of the Mormon heaven except the highest of the CK. This whitewashing of Mormon Doctrine by it’s leaders in the last 50 years is incredible as is the trickle down effect we see reflected in FOF and Ralph. We have this information from Mormon “prophets” who weren’t afraid to teach (as they are today):
Jo again,
Why in the world would you need to be CRAFTY? Think about it. To really get around paying for your sins. If you are sealed, that is the end of the matter. Not many know this aspect of Jo’s teachings. It’s almost like the Chronicles of Riddick… You KEEP what you SEAL. (Instead of you Keep what you Kill). Crafty is defined as, “clever at achieving one’s aims by indirect or deceitful methods.” How apt that Jo would choose that word for what he did. Pratt tried to wrap his mind around this in 1855,
Those dang qualifiers… makes it hard for the whitewash to take. And…Holy Smokes Folks! Get SEALED, and you can do ANYTHING! Well, almost… The ONLY exception is those two sins that Joseph Smith mentions in D&C 132:
But then, after Jo, Brigham added more “qualifiers”. He kept doing this and it has created no end of problems for those who came after… who had to invent arguments to explain it all away like the ingenious “folklore” argument. What was the other sin? It was the Sin against the “Holy Ghost”. And what is that? Let’s go to the videotapes… er, I mean books…
Apostatizing from the Priesthood makes you a Son of Perdition. Any questions? Ralph, has this sunk in yet? I already explained this to you years ago. This made Young leery of giving endowments to the young, saying he only wanted to give them
Where oh where are we going to get our devils from? Brigham Young made a few statements about this, that sons of perdition eventually lose their bodies, become spirits again and are used in this way. According to Young, they eventually, disincorporate completely and dissolve back into their native element (intelligences) to be recycled at some future time. Imagine that! The Mormon God – or his Firstborn Spirit Child Jesus … might just be a recycled SON OF PERDITION!
As Wilford Woodruff recorded:
That God knows everything is FALSE DOCTRINE. Why, because he is always learning new tricks. What a contrast to the God of the Bible. No wonder FOF and Ralph don’t want to discuss any of this! I would be embarrassed too. Young also stated that:
Not a grand fate for apostates. What is ironic (and typical) of Mormonism is that another prophet, Joseph F. Smith, said the opposite:
Young obviously had information that other “prophets” did not have. But that’s not how F. Smith understood it. But then, Young wasn’t afraid to teach it, unlike Mormon “prophets” these days, who have to hide behind anonymous “essays”. Was Brigham Young acquainted with the same set of scriptures that Joseph F. Smith was? The same teachings from Jo Smith? Most assuredly. So why the contradictions? Mormons can’t answer this, and yet they will stand behind the words written by prophets 3000 years ago, (like Amos, Jeremiah, etc.) but reject that Brigham Young knew all about speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost, and the ramifications of what he said, and that those around him said HE HAD THE HOLY GHOST! Man, what a pickle.
To them, what they disagree with is simply “folklore”, because they can’t accept the truth of the matter, that all of those around Brigham Young accepted ALL of his teachings as “the word of God” to them, and said that he always spoke by the power of the Holy Ghost. They were there and wrote that this was their truth, but we have Mormons now trying to rewrite history and acting like none of this was ever said. For example, Wilford Woodruff wrote in 1860 when the whole Q12 was trying to convince Orson Pratt that Young’s “revelation” on Adam God was the truth and that God did not have all knowledge:
Sounds like the Mormons here today, doesn’t it? So simple a child can understand, yet it is no evidence to them. It is not we critics who do not understand Brigham Young and his teachings, or other Mormon “prophets”, it is the Mormon “apologists” like FOF and Ralph who do not. They CANNOT. They refuse to even seriously address them. I can quote these things till doomsday, and they will still at the next Posting on this Blog, act like none of it was posted at all. They only hear what their itching ears want to hear. Lather, rinse, repeat. Yet they will hypocritically condemn those of us that know better, and know what we are talking about. I wasn’t kidding about brainwashing. It is evident in every post by them.
So..how do Mormons explain all this? This throws the “folklore” argument right out the window. I don’t contemplate any response from Ralph or FOF, other than more opinion or a wave of the hand, so to speak. Or a mundane attack on some isolated sentence that offends them or that they can take out of context. Or snide remarks about learning skills when the learned here, have beaten them at every turn. That is all they have to offer.
As for the sin against the Holy “Ghost”, Brigham Young once said:
There is NO WIGGLE ROOM HERE. Unless of course, you don’t want to believe what Young is saying. If you don’t, why are you a Mormon? That is why I no longer am. According to Brigham Young, Phillips would be a Son of Perdition. Here are some of Young’s reasons why:
Brigham Young taught that sons of perdition eventually lose their bodies, become sprits again and are used in this way (becoming devils). According to Young, the sons of perdition eventually disincorporate completely and dissolve back into their native element (intelligences) to be recycled or reorganized at some future time. And that traitors will be Sons of Perdition. The Mormon “prophets” today, are lying. Like with the Priesthood Ban, we know the doctrine, and know where it came from and who taught it, and that it was given by a designated “prophet, seer & revelator” and by the Power of the Holy Ghost (according to Woodruff and others) and is therefore SCRIPTURE. This is so very simple. What is not, is the excuse that it isn’t doctrine because a bunch of Mormons didn’t vote it as “binding”. What a ridiculous tenant. Does that change the facts of what was said? Nope, not at all.
Can our Mormon friends rationally explain the conflict between the two “prophets”, Young and F. Smith? No they cannot. I can. They are both false prophets. Will Ralph seriously step up? I doubt it. He hasn’t so far. Neither has FOF. He talks big, but it carries no weight. He only believes the whitewash. Lather, rinse, repeat.
@grindael
I actually think Ralph is agreeing with you that apostates are sons of perdition. If he isn’t stating that, then I apologize. I don’t want to presume to know what he implied other than that he seemed to be arguing against what I had stated.
I am actually arguing the opposite of you doctrinally but agreeing with you in that Brigham and Joseph and whoever could change on a whim what “sons of perdition” actually meant. Brigham, in his huffing and puffing, almost makes it sound like anyone who disagreed with him on ANYTHING was a son of perdition! (Which is very Brigham). But the doctrine is pretty clear that the heavens must be opened and a person must be a witness of Christ “without faith” and then deny Christ.
Besides, whatever Brigham says regarding the subject is most likely “folklore” so who cares what thinks? Ammirite?? 😉
@falcon
Here you go:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2569583/Mormons-People-dont-planets-afterlife.html#comments-2569583
It’s been on multiple news sources since the essay came out a few days ago. The essay itself says a whole lotta nothing in 3’000 words. Lots of fluff and a whole lotta “mainstreaming” going on. It’s like when mitt Romney tried to go around saying he was a “pastor”. Can’t say “stake president” cus that’s a little weird sounding.
@Faithoffathers
According to the Fof are we a 100% saved by grace?
It must be clear what saved is.
However, point 1 – We are 100% saved by grace [alone?] can only refer to general salvation. Otherwise known as immortality.(according to LDS)
Point 2, must be a reference to any degree of glory or kingdom ‘higher’ than general salvation. This is individual salvation/eternal life/exaltation (Doctrines of Salvation, Prophet Fielding Smith, Vol. 2: p.9)
‘Eternal life’ defined as LDS Prophet Fielding Smith,”What is eternal life? It is to have ‘a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.’ No one receives eternal life except those who receive the exaltation. Eternal life is the greatest gift of God; immortality is not.” (Doctrines of Salvation, Prophet Fielding Smith, Vol. 2: p.9)
Which salvation are you referring to in points 1 and 2, Fof? Please clarify. Thank you.
Good to see you on the forum~
Johnnyboy,
I think you are mistaking what Jo taught. Here it is from Woodruff’s Journal,
Notice a few things. Jo never says that you must SEE GOD, he says you must “know” him. He says nothing about “perfect knowledge”. And how does that happen (knowing God) according to all the Mormons? By the power of the Holy Ghost. Jo says that this is the case with MANY of the apostates of the Church. Brigham was only repeating what he heard from Jo, and added to it.
Apologies to all but I’m briefly going off topic to make a few comments on the Daily Mail article. It’s good that ‘hidden’ things in the church are now seeing the light of day but I’m a little concerned about the nature of the exposure.
Notice that a few short weeks ago the mail quoted ‘lawyers & legal experts’ now they’re quoting a ‘religious scholar’. In the first instance the ‘lawyers’ one a Barrister specialising in religious freedom, the other, a solicitor specialising in libel, obviously knew nothing about the Mormon church or the trial. In the second instance, Teryll Givens, the scholar quoted, is probably best known as a Mormon apologist. Events have proved both ‘Lawyers’ to be wrong & in time the ‘religious scholar’ will also be proven wrong.
Although the reporting of these events may, on the surface be damaging to the church, verbatim quotes from apologists, the church, or lawyers far removed from the reality of the issues are actually assisting the P.R. arm of the church.
Unless the Mail & other papers balance these article with quotes from people like ex-Mormons Grant Palmer & Ken Clark who collectively worked for the church education system for over 60 years, the general public will continue to be deceived by one of the most corrupt religious organizations in the western world.
WOW guys!
Who can even connect the dots when it comes to Mormon doctrine? This is what happens when you have “inspired” false prophets. Look it’s obvious, these guys just run their mouths; all full of pride and self-importance. It was a sign of the times. The 19th century in America was a scene of a lot of religious experimentation. So people like Joseph Smith and others, men and women alike, just let loose a stream of consciousness and had absolutely no amount of self-restraint. If it was in their head it came out of their mouth.
Is it any wonder we get these Mormons showing up here who think they alone have the answer to what Mormon doctrine is? In many ways it’s the same thing as Smith-Young and company. Why do we not marvel at the creative explanations of Mormons trying to come to grips with what Mormon doctrine is. They just fill it all up with their own meaning. That’s why the invention of “folklore” was such a wonderful thing for Mormons. Everything that is embarrassing and stupid as most all of it is, can be labeled “folklore”.
What is “folklore”. I consider “folklore” to be more of oral history. When something is written down and documented. It’s not “folklore”. This is especially true when these prophets are supposed to be “inspired”.
NO PLANETS! NO WAY! BRING BACK THE PLANETS!!!!!!!
This will not stand!