Are Mormons Saved?

Mormon Times recently ran an article that asked — and answered — that question. According to LDS guest writer William Monahan, when people ask if Latter-day Saints are saved or born again, the answer is a resounding “yes.”

Even so, citing the Mormon Church’s 3rd Article of Faith, Mr. Monahan confirms that LDS salvation is conditional, based upon “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.” He adds,

“The word ‘salvation’ can be confusing to some. Depending upon its context, salvation has several meanings ranging from the unconditional gift of resurrection to the conditional gift of eternal life or exaltation.

“Two such meanings follow:

“First, Jesus saved all mankind from the permanence of physical death through the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:22). In that sense, salvation is an unconditional gift. Second, we are saved from the effects of spiritual death (separation from God) by meeting the conditions that the Lord established. Salvation from spiritual death is exaltation and is conditional.”

Mr. Monahan continues on to quote from the Bible and LDS scripture to describe what he believes are the necessary “conditions” for salvation, which ultimately include keeping the commandments and enduring to the end.

Thirteen years ago LDS Apostle Dallin Oaks delivered an address at General Conference in which he asked – and answered – a similar question: “Have You Been Saved?” Mr. Oaks taught that Latter-day Saints attach “at least” six different meanings to the words “saved” and “salvation.” In agreement with Mr. Monahan, one meaning refers to the unconditional eventual resurrection of every human being. Are Mormons saved in this sense? Yes, of course, and so is everyone else. But is this what people are actually asking when they ask a Mormon, “Are you saved?”

Dallin Oaks said, “As to salvation from sin and the consequences of sin, our answer to the question of whether or not we have been saved is ‘yes, but with conditions.’” Like Mr. Monahan, Mr. Oaks quoted the 3rd Article of Faith, “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.” He explained,

“…being cleansed from sin through Christ’s Atonement is conditioned upon the individual sinner’s faith, which must be manifested by obedience to the Lord’s command to repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost…Believers who have had this rebirth [baptism] at the hands of those having authority have already been saved from sin conditionally, but they will not be saved finally until they have completed their mortal probation with the required continuing repentance, faithfulness, service, and enduring to the end.” (Ensign, May 1998, 55)

Being saved “from sin and the consequences of sin” is probably a little closer to what people are actually asking when they want to know if Mormons are saved, but I don’t think this quite captures the full essence of the non-Mormon understanding of what it means to be saved. For Mormons, being saved from sin and the consequences of sin means being able to spend eternity in a kingdom of glory, of which Mormonism has three. Two of these kingdoms of glory do not even include the presence of (or access to) God the Father. For non-Mormons, spending eternity separated from the presence God is not salvation; it is damnation.

Mr. Oaks described yet another meaning Mormons attach to the word salvation: exaltation or eternal life, sometimes called the “fullness of salvation.” He said,

“This salvation requires more than repentance and baptism by appropriate priesthood authority. It also requires the making of sacred covenants, including eternal marriage, in temples of God, and faithfulness to those covenants by enduring to the end. If we use the word salvation to mean ‘exaltation,’ it is premature for any of us to say that we have been ‘saved’ in mortality. That glorious status can only follow the final judgment of Him who is the Great Judge of the living and the dead.” (57)

I believe that people asking Mormons if they are saved mean nothing less than the fullness of salvation, though they may not understand the specific Mormon definition of that term. They are not asking about some partial salvation, but about the full deal – being forgiven and cleansed of sin, reconciled to Holy God, and promised a place with Him for all eternity. In this sense, according to Mormon doctrine, Mormons are not saved. They must wait until the final judgment to know whether they will pass muster in making covenants, keeping the commandments and enduring to the end.

The Bible tells us that we can know right now if we are acceptable to the Lord:

“And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:11-13)

The next time you ask a Mormon friend if he or she is saved, make sure you define what you mean by the word. And when you hear the honest Mormon response, “I hope so,” tell your friend the amazingly Good News:

“Your salvation does not depend upon what you do, but upon what Christ did when he offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin. All your salvation takes root in the death throes of Calvary; the great Substitute bore your sin and suffered its penalty. Your sin shall never destroy you if upon that bloody tree the Lord’s chosen High Priest made a full expiation for your sins; they shall not be laid against you any more forever. What you have to do is simply accept what Jesus has finished. I know your idea is that you are to bring something to him; but that vainglorious idea has ruined many, and will ruin many more. When you are brought empty-handed, made willing to accept a free and full salvation from the hand of the Crucified, then, and then only, will you will be saved.” (Charles Spurgeon, “One Door to Salvation”)

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
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48 Responses to Are Mormons Saved?

  1. Rick B says:

    Because the LDS have so many different meanings behind the words, salvation and born again, you should instead ask them this question.

    Does your relationship with Jesus make you sure you will go to heaven with Him when you die?

    Then even though the vast majority of people who said yes in the article about the LDS being saved, they are wrong. And Mormon who believes JS and the prophets are not saved. Read Gal 1:8-9 they teach a different gospel. Then read 2 Timothy 4. They want thers ears tickled and do not endure sound doctrine.

    Then as many here know, you try and talk to the LDS about their different gospel, they dont want to hear about it. so refusing to look at the facts shows they dont want to hear, but they want to believe what they want to believe.

    Also many LDS here have admitted they have a different gospel, they believe there is correct, but still it’s different.

  2. falcon says:

    We can see that there is two levels to Mormon salvation (being saved). The first level is that which is available to everyone who has ever lived. It’s a type of universal salvation. The second, and to a Mormon, the most important one is the man-to-god works oriented level of salvation. In this second type of salvation, a Mormon toils away in the LDS church approved system hoping that upon death Joseph Smith will give the Mormon his (Smith’s) seal of approval to enter the Celestial kingdom and become a god.
    So if a Mormon is up to date on paying his 10%, kept the Word of Wisdom, and gone to the temple and done the required type and number of rituals, he’s got a shot at it and his hope is that Jesus’ will close the gap if he (the Mormon) fell short.
    So when we talk about salvation/being saved, there is Christian salvation based on God’s Word, the Bible and then there is Mormon salvation which is based on the mental meanderings of Joseph Smith and the subsequent apostles, prophets and teachers of the LDS church.
    In my opinion, a person can’t be a Mormon and be saved in the Biblical sense. Mormonism doesn’t acknowledge the God that can provide legitimate salvation. If a Mormon did come to an understanding of who God is and received the gift of salvation through faith, they’d have to leave Mormonism. Who could go into a Mormon church or temple knowing that the god being worshiped isn’t God.

  3. Sandi B. says:

    Hi, I am not new to reading this sight but I am a new poster. I was raised Jewish, but like most jews, it was heritage only and when I was 16 I got sucked into the mormon church, because the people were so kind and my family life was not great. I actually attended BYU and I would say by the time I graduated from BYU I wss done with morminism. In the seven or eight years that I belonged to the church, I never heard the term salvation even used. I already knew there was no way I would be “good enough” to make it to the celestial kingdom, but I thought, what the hey, what’s a little less light, I was still going to a pretty good place. I have a suspicion many mormons must feel the same way. By the grace of God and Jesus Chirst, I was led out of the church and 17 years became born again. It was not my experience that salvation or being born again was ever discussed in the church.

  4. falcon says:

    Welcome Sandi B.
    It’s very nice to have you here and please continue to post and offer your insights into Mormonism especially your personal experiences.
    My nephew’s wife was raised a secular Jew so I do have a few small insights into that world.
    I can see why your Mormon experience didn’t include the word or concept of being born again or salvation. Mormonism is a series of tasks that must be performed and a check-off list.
    Christianity is faith based not works dependent. Our transformed life is a result of our faith, not a condition for salvation. Mormons have a lot of trouble with that concept. Their favorite charge is to say (wrongly) that Christians believe that once they are saved they think they have license to sin. I’ve never met anyone who believes that nor have I ever heard it preached in any church.
    The apostle Paul said, “Should we continue to sin that grace might increase? May it never be!” And then, “How should we who have died to sin continue in it?”
    After an early life spent in a legalistic religious system, I can say I’d never want to go down that road again. Understanding God’s grace is very liberating.

  5. falcon says:

    It seems that Mormons want to ignore the encounter of Jesus and Nicodemus in the Gospel of John chapter 3. Jesus tells Nicodemus what it means to be “born again”. Nicodemus, who was a bright guy didn’t get it. Of course Jesus was talking about spiritual rebirth and Nicodemus was thinking actual physical birth.
    Mormons are sort of like Nicodemus. First of all Mormonism is all about spiritual procreation of a mother god and father god. Mormonism even has Jesus, who is eternal, having a beginning being spiritually procreated by this mother and father god pair. According to Brigham Young a Mormon prophet, their god the father had actual sex with the Virgin Mary in order to physically conceive Jesus. Is it any wonder, with beliefs like this that Mormons don’t understand spiritual rebirth or being “saved”?
    Jesus was pretty clear when He told Nicodemus that spiritual rebirth was the key to salvation. This spiritual rebirth comes first in recognizing who God is. This is the major stumbling block for Mormons. They don’t know God but have substituted a bizarre and weird concept of men becoming gods themselves primarily through their works.
    Mormonism doesn’t want its adherents to discover who God is and what He requires for salvation (faith). If a Mormon does figure it out, they’ll leave Mormonism.
    Multiple gods and men becoming gods through works is the bedrock upon which Mormonism is built.
    Christianity has a foundation which is Jesus Christ, the eternal God.

  6. Hey yall! Ok, so I’m not new to reading, but this is my first time commenting. Would’ve commented before, but I just now figured out how to sign up for it (promise I’m college educated). 🙂
    From my experience [which is 14+ years… and I’m not 30 yet :)], Mormons don’t seem to have a concept of being “born again”. Although they like to claim they are saved, it’s obvious (as stated above) that their definition of salvation is completely different from mainstream Christianity. My bro-in-law actually calls Christians “Born Again’s”, almost as a derogatory term. I haven’t quite figured out how it’s supposed to insult me? But either way, the idea of being “born again” seems to be foreign to them.
    Anyway, just thought I’d put my 2 cents in. 🙂

  7. helenlouissmith says:

    The Apostolic Constitutions says: “Nay, he that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever, and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: “Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.” And again: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

    The Apostolic Constitutions contains eight treatises on Early Christian discipline, worship, and doctrine, intended to serve as a manual of guidance for the clergy, and to some extent for the laity. It purports to be the work of the Twelve Apostles, whose instructions, whether given by them as individuals or as a body.

  8. Rick B says:

    Hello Married,
    I have heard LDS use the term, “Born again’s” Also. I never found it to be insulting, but I knew that was what they were trying to do.

    Hello Helellouissmith.
    Not sure what the point of your post is and if you LDS or not. I suspect you are LDS and are trying to say, we must be baptized to be saved. If that is in fact correct, then you are wrong, We do not need to be baptized to be saved, and the Bible is clear, according to Jesus and Paul all we need to do is believe on Jesus to be saved.

  9. helenlouissmith says:

    I know what you believe, I was only pointing out that past history pointedly shows a discrepancy between todays Christian Doctrine. Past writing would indicate another doctrine then what you hold to today.

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” John 3:5 RSV
    “Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.” Ephesians 5:25-27 RSV
    “God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you” 1 Peter 3:20-21 RSV

  10. Rick B says:

    I suspect your an LDS member for two reasons.
    1. When I asked you the last time you never did tell me.

    2. You vague in your reply’s, Typical Mormon position.

    Now you can say Christians of the past taught all kinds of things, Really? I dont care, What does the Bible say?

    When you quoted John 3:5 That is not talking about being baptized. That is talking about natural birth. In order for a person to be born, the women water needs to break, even Nicodemus replied to Jesus saying, How can one enter back into His mothers womb? He knew Jesus was speaking about Natural Birth.

    Eph, Speaking about washing with the word is not talking about Baptism either. We read the word, we dont wash our bodies with it.

    Read your bible better, Jesus according to the Bible did not baptize People. Thats really sad if it is required to be saved. Jesus said the only WORK we must do is believe on Him.

    The Apostle Paul said Believe on Jesus, he never said Believe and be baptized. Paul also said Jesus did not send Him to baptize People. But thats really sad if we must be to be saved.

    Now back to the issue of saying people in the old says taught and said things. Why is it so called Christians from hundreds of years ago that said and did things, yet they never claimed, Thus saith the Lord, are thrown in our faces. Yet when We/I quote LDS prophets saying things as fact and from God are flat out ignored and said, those are mistakes? Adam God, Blood Atonement, Blacks holding the priesthood.

    No Christian preacher that says anything that is not taught in the Bible is to be taken as the word of God and spoke on every believers behalf. Like any preacher, Could be Charles Spurgen, or someone alive today, if they say anything that runs contrary to the word of God, they are not to be taken seriously and it is not from God.

    Yet Mormons teach their Prophets and presidents supposedly speak for God, and they are to be taken seriously, yet they are ignored all the time and no Mormons really does as they say, look at the examples I posted above. I will say I suspect we wont see much of you, because you wont want to debate these serious issues.

  11. helenlouissmith says:

    Yet Mormons teach their Prophets and presidents supposedly speak for God, and they are to be taken seriously, yet they are ignored all the time and no Mormons really does as they say, look at the examples I posted above.

    I do take the Prophets seriously, my favorite being BY.
    Your comment is baseless based on the fact you assume you know me. I will debate you as long as we keep it civil.

  12. falcon says:

    You’ve got a great example in BY as your fav. Mormon prophet. He gives Christian apologists a treasure trove of material from which to draw.
    I guess Jesus was wrong when he told the thief on the cross that “today you’ll be with me in paradise.” Don’t think the thief got baptized.

  13. helenlouissmith says:

    Yes, the thief most likely was not baptized. But he will still be resurrected as was talked about in the OP and Mormon Doctrine. Interesting that we are the only Church that will stand in proxy for all the people ever born into this world, that they may still have the choice to accept or decline the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or Plan of Salvation and it’s essential ordinances and covenants.


  14. Rick B says:

    I dont know how long you have followed this blog or how many replys you have read. But I am one guy who speaks my mind and does not mince words. I do not treat LDS like little kids that need to have their hands held. I talk to them like grown men and women. I strongly suspect that you will find a way to say I said something that was not civil and then run away. I guess only time will tell.

    Now onto the Issue of your favorite person, BY. Why is it BY said things like, our salvation hangs upon what he said about Adam being our God, yet LDS claim Adam is not our God and BY got it wrong? They claim that the less than two little pages were written down wrong, yet when JS wrote the King Follet Discourse which was 11 pages long, thats was correct and LDS take much of it as doctrine.

    How about BY claiming that According to God himself Blacks will never hold the priesthood, yet now they do? I thought BY spoke for God? At least according to BY he did, yet BY seems to have gotten something wrong twice. If he was wrong on these things, then that means he lead people astray and got other stuff wrong. These two things alone dont even touch all the problems with BY and Mormonism, but still they are enough to say, BY was/is a false prophet and those who believed him got much more wrong and are leading others astray.

  15. Andy Watson says:

    I love Brigham Young too especially when he opens his mouth and has his scribe write down his words:

    “The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. On this account infidels have called the Savior a bastard. This is merely a human opinion upon one of the inscrutable doings of the Almighty. That very babe that was cradled in the manger, was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband of Mary, but by another Being.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 11:266)

    “When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. HE WAS NOT BEGOTTEN BY THE Holy Ghost…Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:50)

    “How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses v.7, p.333).

    “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have written and spoken-He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:46)

    “Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:46)

    All the above is true according to Brigham because…“How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me – namely that Adam is our father and God.” (Brigham Young, Deseret News, page 308, June 18, 1873)

  16. Andy Watson says:

    Brigham thinks that apostates and blacks have something in common:

    “Brethren who have been on missions, can you see and difference in this people from the time you went away until your return? [Voices: ‘Yes’] You can see men and women who are sixty or seventy years of age looking young and handsome; but let them APOSTATIZE and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and BLACK, JUST LIKE THE DEVIL” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 5:332; Brackets in original)

    For Brigham, why would he need Jesus as his mediator when he’s got his pal Joseph Smith to get him into heaven:

    “If I can pass brother Joseph, I shall stand a good chance for passing Peter, Jesus, the Prophets, Moses, Abraham, and all back to Father Adam, and be pretty sure of receiving his approbation…If we can pass the sentinel Joseph the Prophet, we shall go into the celestial kingdom, and not a man can injure us. If he says, ‘God bless you, come along here’; if we will live so that Joseph will justify us, and say, ‘Here am I, brethren,’ we shall pass every sentinel.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, pp.271-272)

    “If we ask who will stand at the head of the resurrection in this last dispensation, the answer is – Joseph Smith, Junior, the Prophet of God. He is the man who will be resurrected and receive the keys of the resurrection, and he will seal this authority upon others, and they will hunt up their friends and resurrect them.” (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, page 116).

    Mormons, everything that Brigham said is authoritative:

    “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good as Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. Let this go to the people with “Thus saith the Lord,” and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 13:87)

    “I will make a statement here that has been brought against me as a crime, perhaps, or as a fault in my life. Not here, I do not allude to anything of the kind in this place, but in the councils of the nations-that Brigham Young has said, ‘when he sends forth his discourses to the world they may call them Scripture.’ I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good as scripture as is couched in this Bible, and if you want to read revelation read the sayings of him who knows the mind of God.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 13:261)

  17. Andy Watson says:

    Hey Brigham, what about the blacks who are now in your church? It’s okay that they are there now?

    “Brethren who have been on missions, can you see and difference in this people from the time you went away until your return? [Voices: ‘Yes’] You can see men and women who are sixty or seventy years of age looking young and handsome; but let them APOSTATIZE and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and BLACK, JUST LIKE THE DEVIL” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 5:332; Brackets in original)

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.10, page 110)

    “When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 2:143)

    Brigham, I guess the modern-day LDS church didn’t believe that last quote. They couldn’t wait so the blacks are there now. They even have a few as GA’s! But, what can you tell us about blood atonement? Is Jesus’ blood not satisfactory the removal of sin?

    “There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants. [emphasis mine] (Journal of Discourses 3:243)

    “All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant…That is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it.” (Journal of Discourses 4:215)

  18. helenlouissmith says:

    I will say I suspect we wont see much of you, because you wont want to debate these serious issues.

    Good, I speak my mind also but with out judgement. Hence save your assumptions for a time when you get to know me better, ( debate these serious issues).

    BY, did he or did he not get it wrong? Maybe some of our leader will have an opinion, some will denounce the sermon and other like me will wait and see exactly why he made such a claim. I was not there so how can I know that what was recorded was actually the thoughts and words of BY.. do we have anything in BY own handwriting? not that I know of. Also the King Follet is a sermon given at a funeral, not something we state as part of our cannon of scripture.
    Even so, I believe that God was once a man and I and you can become Gods ourselves. Blasphemous, yes to some.

    Not totally true, BY stated there would be a day that Black would hold the Priesthood of God.
    The views Brigham Young held with regards to blacks were the dominant views of virtually all people in the United States at the time.

    “Brigham Young condemns the whites for their treatment of blacks, and threatens punishment for white men who have what is likely forced intercourse with black women, it is not fair to portray him as a ravening racist with no concern for the downtrodden. His fire and brimstone is all for the aggressor; his sympathy is for those who were mistreated.” Joshua Steimle

    A First Presidency statement in 1949 quoted Wilford Woodruff as having made the following statement: “The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have.” Bush and Mauss, Neither White nor Black, 221.

  19. Andy Watson says:

    Brigham, I know it hurts. But, look on the bright side. I do like some of the things you taught:

    “Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test…If you follow the doctrines, and be guided by the precepts of that book [the Bible], it will direct you where you may see as you are seen, where you may converse with Jesus Christ, have the visitation of angels, have dreams, visions, and revelations, and understand and know God for yourselves.” (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 126)

    I haven’t had visitations from angels, dreams, visions, and revelations. However, I did thoroughly exam Mormonism over several years reading yours and Smith’s writings. I read your all your Scriptures more than once. Those church manuals are terrific! But, after taking your advice and directive and tested it (1 Thes 5:21) all against the Word of God, the Bible, I quickly found out that you are a false prophet along with Smith, your writings are in error, you and the other Mormons are under the judgment of God and you are liars and deceivers leading people astray in your quasi-pagan religion. It’s too late now, Brigham. I can’t bring you a cup of cool water for your tongue in damnation (Luke 16:19-31). However, rest assured that I will get the word out to your “brothers and sisters” not come where you and Smith are right now. Lastly, ask Joseph Smith if he was able to make hell a heaven. How’s the party in the pit?

    “I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it.” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol.5:517)

  20. Rick B says:

    How can you say by what I said that I am judging you? I simply said that the track record for LDS is to run away when the rubber hits the road, and I suspect you will do the same.

    Now I love how you try and avoid the teachings of your prophet by claiming you were not their when he wrote them. I guess you can never believe anything JS said since you were not their and really dont know that he wrote them. I guess every quote you give from LDS sources can be ignored since you cannot prove they were written by the people that claimed wrote them. And any quotes you give from here on out, please back up in your opinion stating how you can trust what was said since you were not their and cannot really know what was said. So in all honesty how can you really trust any prophet/president that speaks?

  21. Andy Watson says:

    Helen, you’re right. You won’t see much of here. I spent a few years here and wrote several articles. However, I had to move on to other obligations and callings. I’m sure you understand. Your’e a new arrival. Anwyay, why will I not waste my time in trivial debate with those who have given their soul over completely to Joseph Smith (worker of Satan)? Why, because of statements that you made. When a person has given his or her spirit over to a false gospel and believes that he or she can become a god one day, well, there isn’t much to debate about. I could take you to task, challenge and answer your heretical claims from the Bible, weigh you down with quotes from those you idolize and show you your inconsistency through your own false scriptures. But, what is the point? Your heart has been hardened. You are blinded. You are deceived like the others in your false religion. The only hope for you is that God will open your eyes and give you the ability to repent (2 Tim 2:25-26). Call out to the Sovereign God (the real One) for mercy. He’s the only one that can help you. (The quotes weren’t for you. They were for those whom God is actually doing a work in his or her life right now who may be reading this.)

    Falcon, Rick B, Sharon…it’s been a long time. I’ll see you again soon.

  22. Rick B says:

    According to your logic, you can never know what BY meant since he is dead, Add to that BRUCE MC, quoted from BY and used him as a source, so he trusted BY. Then according to your logic, JS never wrote the BoM, He had his Buddy Oliver writing what he said were letters as he stuck his face in a hat with a magic rock. So since he did not write what was on the plates, how can he be trusted? I can give other examples, but I know from experience, you will make excuses as to why you can ignore what was written and said by your prophets.

  23. helenlouissmith says:

    Do others ever get annoyed having to point out to you what is a obvious sarcasm or jab? Obviously you are insipid and oblivious to such inane remarks as the one you stated witlessly in brushing me off as irrelevant to a intelligent discussion, comparing Helen to some pointless record. What makes you think you even comprehend the rubber let alone the record of LDS posters with such a beleaguered condensing blanket criticism.

    You want to be frank so lets be accurate at the same time. I never gave any impression I was avoiding a teaching or sermon by a True Prophet of God. Lets even step it up and quote what our Prophet Joseph Smith actually stated about believing anyone. ” “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.” Let me ask you a question, what does it mean to govern yourself? Would that be like following someone over a cliff just because you felt that was a correct principle? Darn, all these year I have been doing everything backwards according to Rick B. — “So in all honesty how can you really trust any prophet/president that speaks?”

  24. helenlouissmith says:

    Andy Watson says: Joseph Smith (worker of Satan)

    Let me ask a pointed question, who hardens the heart of man, God or Satan? Think carefully before you carelessly answer.

  25. helenlouissmith says:

    Logic? Does logic enter the debate when asked how you know that Jesus is Lord and Savior.
    Debatably we are not going to see the same issues such as spirit to spirit knowledge when compared to mans own faulty knowledge. Logic has it place and time, but ultimately real truth comes from the witness of the Sprit, that could be the Holy Ghost or the Spirit of God. Common sense not logic tells me that JS wrote the BOM and then chose 11 witnesses to validate after actually seeing, handling, and turning the pages of the Gold Plates. By the way, I trust no man until I have a witness and not just any witness.

    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: King James Bible.

  26. Andy Watson says:

    Helen, there won’t be any careless answers given here. First, yes, it’s sarcasm. It’s hard for me to take Brigham Young seriously in some of the insane doctrines and ideas he brought forth. However, I have to take him seriously because people like you take him seriously and this false prophet, thought dead and in hell right now, still is idolized by the LDS faithful that haven’t done their homework or have buried his or her head in Utah snow and don’t want to scrutinize an individual that they have made statues of and placed all around Temple Square followed later by naming a school after him. This “prophet” had over 50 wives, taught blood atonement, Adam-god doctrine, spewed vitriolic doctrines against blacks, etc, etc. Hey, he brought one group of Mormons over here from Illinois. The other, I argue brighter ones, stayed in Illinois with Emma Smith who recognized Young as nothing but a pompous blowhard. Utah Mormons are stuck with Young, but yet they quickly “throw him under the bus” when his doctrines are brought to light.

    To your question: Mankind is born in sin…dead in sin (Eph 2:1; Rom 3:10-12; 5:12). I know Mormons reject this because of their creed. They reject this like other non-Christian religions because they think that mankind is born good – rejection of original sin. Mankind is born dead in sin with a heart of stone. God in His sovereignty is the only One who can change that heart of stone into a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). David correctly exclaimed his sinful condition in the womb (Psa 51:5; 58:3). Mankind is born as children of the devil with this sinful and unregenerate nature. Therefore, their hearts are already hardened to some degree. However, this hardening can increase through various circumstances of a spiritual nature. When people hear the gospel (Christian Gospel – not the Mormon “gospel”) and reject it, they are deliberately suppressing the truth and hardening their hearts to the things of God. Mankind hardens his heart even harder. Mankind is born in rebellion and at enmity with God…rebel sinners in defiance.

    God also hardens the hearts of people. The Scripture references are plentiful. One text we could begin with is Romans 9:18 followed by another in John 12:39-40 (quoting Isaiah). God hardened Pharaoh’s heart first (Exodus 4:21); it was God’s intention to bring wrath upon the Egyptians concluding with the result in Exodus 5:2. Pharaoh then hardens his own heart (Exodus 8:15). Back to the text in Romans 9:18. Passive hardening involves a divine judgment upon sin that is already present. God lets mankind have their own way. God removes the constraints of His common benevolence. God abandons them to their own desires. Man gets what he wants – further separation from God because man loves the darkness (John 3:19). When Mormons reject the Good News of the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone in the blessed Savior apart from their own flawed merits, Mormons don’t like this because of their defiance and rebellion still believe the lie that was told by Satan in the Garden of Eden that mankind can become like God (Gen 3:5). What follows is a sober reality of God giving them over to a false spirit so they will believe a lie (2 Thes 2:11-12).

    Summary: God hardens; man hardens. God receives glory either way by either demonstrating mercy or justice. Smith and Young hardened their hearts; God hardened their hearts. God receives glory in demonstrating His justice on these false prophets through their eternal damnation. They got what they wanted. God always gets what He wants: glory. He is entitled to it. He is the Creator. You are a creature.

    Have a nice weekend.

  27. helenlouissmith says:

    God hardens the heart, right. So here we have Moses, who states that he is the wrong man for the job. God says that He will lighten the load, even give Moses a spokesman. Moses is afraid and tells God that the Pharaoh will never listen to him, but God convinces Moses that He will be with him all the way.
    So what does God do according to the Scriptures, God hardens the heart of Pharaoh, right. This is what I mean about not trusting man, corrupt scriptures came about because of corrupt men. If there is any truth to what I say, then be assured that other scriptures were corrupted also, including my friend the translation of Repentance and Baptism, when you get that figured out, come see a Missionary and learn the true Plan of Salvation. Repentance is not a one time thing.

  28. Pingback: Faith-Promoting Rumor » License to Sin

  29. Rick B says:

    You a typical mormon doing just as I said you would. You sit here and avoid everything thats brought up to you about BY. You reply with, Well I cannot know what he meant because I was not their, and since it was written down by someone else I cannot know if thats what he really said.

    Yet JS had people write stuff down for Him and Many LDS quote BY and JS and never say, well since it was not written by the Man himself I cannot trust it. That is a complete dodge. Then you attack the Bible and say, It is flawed and corrupted, yet provide no evidence to prove it.

    Then you accuse me and others of sarcasm and judging you simply because we told you in advance what you would say and do, and your doing just as we/I said would happen.

    Now onto issues of JS. You said the Bible is corrupt and was written by man. Well lets see here. JS Said many plain and precious parts are missing from the Bible, well you and no other Mormon can tell us what these plain and precious parts are. Seeing as how you cannot tell us whats missing, how can you really prove that? You mean JS said so and thats evidence?

    If thats your reply, Then how come as of this very day, no LDS Prophet or president has ever recived a word from God about whats missing? Yet they sure seem to hear a lot from God on many topics, just not whats missing. Add to that, It was your prophet JS who claims He heard from God Himself To “Correct” The Bible and that his (J.S) Mission to correct the Bible was completed and that was how we Got the J.ST. Of the Bible. Yet Somehow it was “Corrupted” Once JS died and BY was not allowed to have it and the RLDS got it. You mean God failed? You mean God COMMANDED YOUR PROPHET to “CORRECT” The Bible and less than 50 years later it became corrupt?

    Add to that, it was YOUR PROPHET J.S. who said, no man can see God and live, with out the priesthood. Yet Some how JS had 9 different first vision accounts that spanned years, so he saw God and lived yet did not have this priesthood authority he spoke of. Now which first vision account is the correct one? How do you know it is correct when their are 9 to choose from, and if the first one is not the correct one, then any other first vision account is not really a fisrt vision account since it is any where from the second to the ninth.

    Lastly, you claim the Bible is corrupt, yet their are over 4,000 changes to the BoM. You can blow it off saying, they are minor errors of grammar and punctuation, but their are some doctrinal changes, and according to how JS stuck his face in a hat, and words would not leave the golden plates until written correctly, their should not be a single doctrinal change. Yet their are many. So you need to address these issues and stop dodging them and tossing up smoke screens, or I will continue to point out all you dodges until you answer honestly or leave.

  30. helenlouissmith says:

    Let me address the first issue which to me is irrelevant to the OP. Continuing down the path of justification is fine, but this is not the issue, I was only mentioning it in passing wondering if condescending sarcasm was the norm here at CARM. Apparently it bothers you enough not to let go. So I release you from having to deal with this anymore by letting your last words stand without any further criticism on my part. The rest I will address after I fix lunch for husband and I. Hope your having a wonderful Sabbath day.

  31. Rick B says:

    This is not a CARM board, This website is not owned by CARM and I hate to break the bad news to you, but many LDS have posted on this board and on other boards like FairLDS for example, and they are some mean, snotty, hateful posters, Yet many LDS who see these replies and read these replies never tell their fellow Brethren to stop saying and acting like they do, theirfore they condone the action of hate by not saying anything. So before you get up full of yourself, just remember, many LDS do these types of things.

    Now onto the issue of you claiming I am or others are sarcastic, you must provide exact quotes of what was said and by who, example, Rick B said…. and I quote. Otherwise simply saying, you guys are sarcastic is not enough and is in My opinion simply another dodge. Then lets say I am or was sarcastic, Does my sarcasm mean everything your Prophets and Church taught that was false and lies now mean it is no longer false or lies simply because I was/am sarcastic? Sorry but the truth remains no matter how I say it. So again, stop dodging the issues, Either prove me wrong about you simply dodging and soon to be running away, Just as I said in my first post, or prove me right and say, Rick your being mean, I cannot prove it by quoting you, so I will simply say you are, then do as you said and say, I no longer wish to debate you, I am done and taking my dodge ball home to play against people I can beat.

  32. helenlouissmith says:

    Lets take the issue of the bible being incomplete and not being inerrant. Seems you have a impossible task proving that the Scriptures (Bible) is the inerrant Word of God. Since not having all the originals (manuscripts) and scholars acknowledge the manuscripts we do have contain errors. Problematic is that your main Protestant and Orthodox Christianity tenants won’t allow for mistakes, corrupted scriptures, or even worse a closed cannon.

    I see orthodoxy caught between a hard spot and a rock . If you beleive that God had an interested hand in the formation and preservation of the Bible, then it contains everything you need for living the Chistian life. Of course there are those who do not believe God preserved the purity and allowed the agency of man to corrupt it and mistranslate.

    I find the logic of the first premise to be untenable, and the logic of the second to be half true. I say this based on the purity of something that when hidden up, can come forth in the purity of its original form, hence the Book of Mormon. Then we see the hand of God in preserving His Word, a second witness that Jesus is the Christ and the truth of what the scriptures stated would be a great apostasy: Scripture mentions an apostasy in Matthew 24:4-12; Mark 13:21-23; Luke 21:7-8; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 2 Timothy 3:1-7, 4:1-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3; and Jude 17-19.

    Will get back with you. Louis needs the use of the computer, thanks for the opportunity to discuss our differences in a civil manner.

  33. Rick B says:

    Helen, I cannot say this enough, Stop dodging the questions.
    Now you attacking the Bible saying it is wrong, yet you never answer the questions of the nine first vision accounts, or the BoM having 4,000 changes or anything else I said. You ignore what I said and simply toss out more attacks against the Bible.

    Then you said as far as the Bible goes, It is corrupt, yet you quote a lot from it, so it seems ok to quote a corrupt bible when it fits your needs, yet otherwise you dont trust it. If you going to claim we have no manuscripts on the Bible then your either really ignorant, or flat out lying. What exactly do you think the dead sea scrolls are? And you must deal with the fact that we have no golden plates, so no golden plates is a severe problem, yet we have dead sea scrolls. So stop dodging questions and acting like I am the problem.

  34. falcon says:

    Boy Rick and Andy,
    You’ve sure been busy with old Helen here. It’s just like the old days when all those hardcore Mormons would show-up here for a time and then vanish.
    You’re right Rick, I don’t think Helen will stay around here long because I can sense the persecution card is about ready to be played.
    Mormonism is a religion basically of emotion. The evidence as it begins piling-up proving that Smith’s religious invention is false is just too much for a dedicated Mormon to handle. That’s why it’s generally back to the persecution card or the I bear my testimony response.
    The sad thing is that God is standing ready to receive these folks into His family and Kingdom if they will acknowledge who He is and what He did for them through His Son Jesus the Christ.
    I know we get into a “take no prisoners” mode when we defend the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but it is my hope that Mormons understand that it’s not them we have a problem with; it’s what they believe.
    God calls us to defend what He has once and for all delivered to the Saints, as the Bible tells us. The Saints are those who have come to the point in their spiritual lives where they understand that without faith in Jesus, they are lost for eternity. God’s final revelation was in Christ and there is nothing to be added to it.
    May God have mercy on those who read these words.

  35. Sandi B. says:

    I have a question for you Helen. If the Book of Mormon was found on plates, tranlated from “ancient egyptian” in the 1800’s when JS supposedly discovered them, than why is it that the Book of Mornom is written in “King James English” which was used 200 years before the time of the “translation” of the gold plates. Some of what is in the Book of Mormon is VERBATIM from the King James Version of the Bible!

  36. helenlouissmith says:

    “your either really ignorant, or flat out lying. ”

    I see, back to condescending remarks! what is it about debating and having a civil conversation that bothers you so much? is this why you left to get some rehab.

  37. helenlouissmith says:

    A very old argument that I thought was put to rest by some of our best scholars. Joseph has been accused by Evangelist of plagiarism. You seem to be all over the place with criticisms, why not agree to one at a time, I will stop complaining about errors and mistranslations, lets deal with the first issue, Brigham Young. I don’t have the time or the desire to do a mud slinging contest.

    B. H. Roberts gives us the following explanation of the procedure used by Joseph Smith when he encountered a passage which he recognized as a Bible quotation.

    “When Joseph Smith saw that the Nephite record was quoting the prophecies of Isaiah, of Malachi and the words of the Savior, he took the English Bible and compared these passages as far as they paralleled each other, and finding that in substance, in thought, they were alike, he adopted our English translation.”

    Now, let me get back to you on BY. Sorry Louis is bugging me again.

  38. helenlouissmith says:

    The rehab was not meant for you, I think it was Watson who had left and just came back, my bad.
    Sorry. 🙂

  39. Rick B says:

    Helen said I see, back to condescending remarks! what is it about debating and having a civil conversation that bothers you so much? is this why you left to get some rehab.

    Since when is speaking the truth Condescending? Either you lied or you are ignorant. Ignorant simply means you do not know all the facts when you are speaking on a subject. So how am I being mean? Jesus even said people were slow or liars.

    Now how about this, these quotes are from YOUR PROPHETS and BoM.
    read 1 Nephi 14:10 “behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of god belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.” Your BoM teaches this, you believe it dont you?

    I quote b young: “with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world” (journal of discourses 8:199).

    I quote 3rd president john taylor (brigham young quotes mr taylor) “brother taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth” (j.o.d 6:176).

    I quote heber c. kimball “christians-those poor, miserable priests brother brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth” (j.o.d 5:89)

    I’m going out on a limb and guessing that you wont say anything about these quotes.

    Helen said lets deal with the first issue, Brigham Young. I don’t have the time or the desire to do a mud slinging contest.

    Your saying that you refuse to deal with the issues your favorite prophet taught. It’s not mud slinging when your prophet taught this stuff and were asking why you choose to avoid what was said.

    Then you brought up the issue of the Bible saying it was flawed, how about the nine first vision accounts? Or lets add to that, the issue of reformed Egyptian? reformed Egyptian language does not and has never existed and not one single Mormon, not even your so called great LDS SCHOLARS have ever been able to prove a single shred of evidence.

    I will not ask you any more, answer the questions or go away. If you reply, but questions are not answered, I will only reply to you that your again dodging questions. I’m no prophet, but I called you out before you even asked the first question, and I was spot on 100 percent correct about you dodging questions.

  40. helenlouissmith says:

    Rick B says:
    June 12, 2011 at 12:42 pm
    You a typical mormon doing just as I said you would. You sit here and avoid everything thats brought up to you about BY. You reply with, Well I cannot know what he meant because I was not their, and since it was written down by someone else I cannot know if thats what he really said.

    Yet JS had people write stuff down for Him and Many LDS quote BY and JS and never say, well since it was not written by the Man himself I cannot trust it. That is a complete dodge. Then you attack the Bible and say, It is flawed and corrupted, yet provide no evidence to prove it.

    Typical Mormon, why the label, you hardly know me or my profession. You have little to no evidence of what is typical. Now what did I avoid? just because I didn’t fall down and faint after finding out that BY is not in accordance with some other GA’s opinions. Lets me be frank, I like the things BY taught, I think he taught on a level that most Mormons did not comprehend. Since there is little to nothing written by BY himself on the Adam God Sermons, why should I dismiss any of them out of hand.

  41. helenlouissmith says:

    “Now how about this, these quotes are from YOUR PROPHETS and BoM.
    read 1 Nephi 14:10 “behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of god belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.” Your BoM teaches this, you believe it dont you?”

    Of course I believe it.

    I quote heber c. kimball “christians-those poor, miserable priests brother brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth” (j.o.d 5:89)

    You said I wouldn’t comment on any of them, why not let BY speak for himself.

    “Suppose we now notice that part of the world called Christians, that profess to believe the Old and New Testament, King James’s translation. They say they believe this Bible, yet if you are in France, Germany, England, in the United States, in the Canadas, in the islands of the sea, or no matter where among the Christian nations, the moment you make it known that you have embraced the Book of Mormon, and that you believe Joseph Smith is a Prophet, they will at once accuse you of throwing away the Bible, they will publish abroad that you have become a “Latter-day Saint,” “a Mormon,” and consequently have denied the Bible you formerly believed, and have cast it entirely away. What is the reason of this, which I need not undertake to substantiate, for it is a fact that almost every person knows? Now, we ARE believers in the Bible, and in consequence of our unshaken faith in its precepts, doctrine, and prophecy, may be, attributed “the strangeness of our course,” and the unwarrantable conduct of many towards this people. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:237)
    We lived in Illinois from 1839 to 1845, by which time they again succeeded in kindling the spirit of persecution against Joseph and the Latter-day Saints. Treason! treason! treason! they cried, calling us murderers, thieves, liars, adulterers, and the worst people on the earth. And this was done by the priests, those pious dispensers of the Christian religion whose charity was supposed to be extended to all men, Christian and heathen; they were joined by drunkards, gamblers, thieves, liars, in crying against the Latter-day Saints. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 19:61)
    Brigham’s point was that those who persecuted the Saints were not extending the charity that typically characterized Christianity. This was not a condemnation of Christianity in general, but rather a condemnation of those who professed to be Christian but did not practice Christian principles. Brigham was denouncing hypocrites. Likewise, Joseph F. Smith also denounced such hypocrisy:
    I felt to thank God that we still possessed our lives and freedom, and that there was at least some prospect of the homeless widow and her family of little ones, helpless as they were, to hide themselves somewhere in the wilderness from those who sought their destruction, even though it should be among the wild, so-called savage, native tribes of the desert, but who have proved themselves more humane and Christlike than the so-called Christian and more civilized persecutors of the Saints. (Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discourses 23:74)
    The denunciation of hypocrisy among those who professed to be Christians is not a denunciation of Christianity itself. Latter-day Saints certainly identified themselves as Christians during this period of time.”

  42. Time for a friendly reminder. As discussion becomes increasingly passionate, please remember to treat each other with respect (and patience). All who do so are welcome here at Mormon Coffee…

  43. Rick B says:

    Helen, Let me remind you of somethings and point some others out.

    You tell me I am being judgmental and mean, yet I dont see you condemning what the BoM and your prophets said, as a matter of fact you agree with them, they said things far worse than me. Then when you got mad at me for saying your a liar or ignorant, let me explain something, You said the Bible is corrupt and has no evidence. Well either you are and were aware of the dead sea scrolls and never mentioned them, in that case that makes you a liar, or you really did not know they existed, so you spoke while being unaware of all the facts, then in that case you are ignorant. Which is it? You knew they existed and decide to leave out that information, or you spoke not knowing all the facts?

    Now you do keep avoiding issue. First you say, I cannot comment on things BY said since I was not their to know what he really meant by them, Then you change you tune and say, Lets me be frank, I like the things BY taught, I think he taught on a level that most Mormons did not comprehend.

    How can you say in one breath, you dont know what he meant by what he said, Then go onto say you really like what he said and agree with him? Thats again makes you a liar.

    Now you keep avoiding the issue of the 9 first vision accounts, and you avoided the issue of JS “correcting” The Bible according to God, and then it somehow feel back into corruption.

    Then you claim the Bible is corrupt, yet you quote from it and claim certain verse prove their was a total apostasy, but how can you be sure those verse are not corrupt? Need I go on? Stop dodging and give honest answers. And if you going to complain about me saying you a liar or ignorant, then please tell me where I am wrong and what I am missing. Whats the 3rd option that I missed? I dont simply call people liars, I back up with reason and logic why I say what I do. It would be different if I simply said it with no evidence provided.

  44. helenlouissmith says:

    You take great liberty with what you say I said and what reality is. I suggest you take Sharon’s advise and calm down and be real about having a fair and balanced discussion, what say you?

    Your use of the word “liar” is noted, so is the word “ignorance” both of which I dare say do not accurately describe the sweet person I am and the many friends that would vouch for my honesty and intelligence. Again you don’t know me, I don’t judge others but come to defend my beliefs and doctrine pertaining to the true Plan of Salvation. I suggest or plead that for your own sanity and your agenda driven condescending criticisms, you might try actually quit misquoting and misrepresenting my remarks as facts. I will get back to you on any further remarks I have in answer to questions that still are unanswered, but Louis is calling me from upstairs and wants me to come to bed. Good night and blessings. 🙂

  45. helenlouissmith says:

    The Dead Sea Scrolls give us an extra verse before verse 1 of 1 Samuel 11, which I will call “verse 0″:

    Nahash king of the Ammonites oppressed the Gadites and the Reubenites viciously. He put out the right eye of all of them and brought fear and trembling on Israel. Not one of the Israelites in the region beyond the Jordan remained whose right eye Nahash king of the Ammonites did not put out, except seven thousand men who escaped from the Ammonites and went to Jabesh-gilea” (1 Samuel 11:0)

    This verse is missing from the King James Version

    And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. (1 Samuel 15:27, KJV & JST)

    However, the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal that it was actually Saul who did the ripping:

    And as Samuel turned about to go away, Saul laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. (1 Samuel 15:27, DSS)

    Research by Kerry A. Shirts

    It is claimed by opponents of Mormonism that the Melchizedek Priesthood in the church cannot be accurate because at Hebrews 7:24 the Greek term “aparabaton” means “intransmissible”, hence Christ is the only one with the Melchizedek Priesthood. But lets look a little closer and see how the opponents misstate the case.

    There are several articles by leading scholars on the Melchizedek Priesthood in the Dead Sea Scrolls which are of interest. What they have all noted is that there were those who would share Melchizedek’s lot, i.e., hold his Priesthood with him! The understanding that Jesus would be the last high priest was a rather late Christian teaching put onto the text of Hebrews with absolutely no justification. The Greek word “aparabaton” does not mean “intransmissible”, but rather “unchangeable”, as the Qumran Community understood it as well, since, of course, there were expected other priests to arise after the order of Melchizedek. And no contemporary Greco-Roman source ever used the term “aparabaton” with the meaning of “intransmissible”, but it always meant “unchangeable”, as the Liddell-Scott Lexicon demonstrates as well. (S. Kent Brown, “The Dead Sea Scrolls: A Mormon Perspective”, in “BYU Studies”, Vol 23, Winter 1983, #1, pp. 56f).

  46. helenlouissmith says:

    Quoting Rick.
    How can you say in one breath, you dont know what he meant by what he said, Then go onto say you really like what he said and agree with him? Thats again makes you a liar.

    Quoting myself:

    BY, did he or did he not get it wrong? Maybe some of our leader will have an opinion, some will denounce the sermon and other like me will wait and see exactly why he made such a claim. I was not there so how can I know that what was recorded was actually the thoughts and words of BY.. do we have anything in BY own handwriting? not that I know of.

    I have not agreed with anyone just yet, but I like his sermons, BY being one of my favorite Prophets.
    I said I would wait and see — 🙂

  47. Rick B says:

    Helen said Your use of the word “liar” is noted, so is the word “ignorance” both of which I dare say do not accurately describe the sweet person I am and the many friends that would vouch for my honesty and intelligence.

    Thats great that you have people that would vouch for you, So did Dahmer, Bundy and Hitler.
    The Bible tells me 4 things.
    1. Jesus said about some People, Your father is the Devil
    2. every humans heart is wicked and deceitful
    3. every man is a liar
    4. Satan can come in the form of an angel of light to lie and device.

    I can see it know, Satan says, My friends think I am a nice sweet guy, so that means you can trust me.

    You can tell me all you want about what a great person you are, but when you avoid questions it shows something different.

    Need I remind you again, You have not answered the issues of the nine first vision accounts. You have not said how you can claim the Bible is corrupt, yet quote from it as if it is accurate, you have not answered the issue of the BoM and the changes that are doctrinal, you have not answered the issue of why God commanded JS to “correct the Bible, yet then allowed it to fall back into corruption, at least according to the LDS it did.

    As to BY, You cant say, He never wrote things with his own hand so we cannot trust him, or trust it was him that said it. Your the only Mormon ever to say that, That I meet. Many, Many lds, even presidents and prophets quote from BY. If they quote from Him, then they trust him.

    Now do I trust you? Or do I trust and believe your prophets? If you trust your prophets, then you should be able to believe what BY said since they do.
    Helen you said and other like me will wait and see exactly why he made such a claim.

    Another thing you avoided, how can you wait and see what he meant? He’s dead, he cannot come back and answer that. Also I asked, but you avoided, Why is it the prophets never hear from God what exactly were/are the plain and precious parts Missing from the Bible? They sure seem to hear a lot from God on many and all subjects, except the things that really matter. While they hear from God, why not hear from God about what BY said and meant.

    It was Your Prophet JS that said, No man can be saved in ignorance. It seems to me ALL LDS are ignorant on many subjects if they cannot agree to who said what, or what they really meant. I really find it hard to believe how much you guys claim to have the truth, but then cannot agree on did a “PROPHET of GOD” really say something, and what really was meant by it. Your not giving me hope that you really know and have the truth.

  48. jackg says:

    Wow, this has really been entertaining to read. I have to respect Helen for standing by the real teachings of JS et al and NOT trying to water them down to sound like Christianity. She knows the real Mormonism taught by her leaders, and isn’t afraid to champion them as if they are truly from God.

    Helen makes some good points with regard to attack she is getting on this site. Can one really argue that the vehemence with which we state our position be interpreted as a Christian quality? It has been a while since I have posted here, and I think I am learning more about God’s love and patience than ever before. That’s what being a father to a 17-year-old daughter can do for you. Are we really interacting in a way that honors God? I think that is a question we need to ask ourselves.

    Helen, I once believed Mormon leaders as you do. I used to defend them in the same way you do. In my journey with God, He has saved me from my sin and sinfulness. But, before He could do that, He had to save me from Mormonism so I could learn the Truth about Him. I had to learn the Truth about grace, mercy, love, and what it means to a child of God. Mormonism doesn’t teach this, and the quotes of BY that have been highlighted reveal that he believed in a God who has no mercy or grace. That’s not the God of the Bible. Ultimately, the question is whether or not the Bible is authoritative for a person. In your honesty, you have basically called its authority into question with an appeal to the argument that God has allowed men to mistranslate it, etc. The points you point out do not change the salvation history or salvation message that the Bible offers the world. In that sense, the Bible is inerrant. Here’s a question for you to ponder regarding the Mormon claim that wicked and evil men have corrupted the Bible: would such men leave in such things as the 10 commandments and the Levitical laws while taking out the parts of becoming gods and procreating for eternity? You want to talk about reason. Does this make sense? Or, does it make more sense that evil and wicked men would add that we are to become gods? When God led me out of Mormonism and into the Light, He brought me to Is. 43:10. In that one passage, God showed me that everything JS and BY taught were false doctrines designed by men. It’s my prayer that you will reach that point in your life. It’s a humbling experience to admit that you don’t know if JS was a prophet or if the BOM is true. But, that’s where God wants to lead all Mormons so that He can offer them the Truth that leads to eternal life with Him.


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