Blogger Matt Walsh has been taking some heat these days. Or, to be more accurate, Matt takes heat every day. Matt stands strong on important issues, and Matt does not mince words. In response to the sorts of comments he gets on his blog, he has written a provocatively-titled article: “Jesus didn’t care about being nice or tolerant, and neither should you.” He begins,
“There is no shortage of heresies these days.
“If you want to adopt some blasphemous, perverted, fun house mirror reflection of Christianity, you will find a veritable buffet of options. You can sift through all the variants and build your own little pet version of the Faith. It’s Ice Cream Social Christianity: make your own sundae! (Or Sunday, as it were.)
“And, of all the heretical choices, probably the most common — and possibly the most damaging — is what I’ve come to call the Nice Doctrine.
“The propagators of the Nice Doctrine can be seen and heard from anytime any Christian takes any bold stance on any cultural issue, or uses harsh language of any kind, or condemns any sinful act, or fights against evil with any force or conviction at all. As soon as he or she stands and says ‘This is wrong, and I will not compromise,’ the heretics swoop in with their trusty mantras.
“They insist that Jesus was a nice man, and that He never would have done anything to upset people. They say that He came down from Heaven to preach tolerance and acceptance, and He wouldn’t have used words that might lead to hurt feelings. They confidently sermonize about a meek and mild Messiah who was born into this Earthly realm on a mission to spark a constructive dialogue.
“The believers in Nice Jesus are usually ignorant of Scripture, but they do know that He was ‘friends with prostitutes,’ and once said something about how, like, we shouldn’t get too ticked off about stuff, or whatever. In their minds, he’s essentially a supernatural Cheech Marin.”
While The Matt Walsh Blog and Mormon Coffee differ significantly on topics discussed, we share common exposure to propagators of the Nice Doctrine. That’s why I think Matt’s comments in this particular article would be of interest to the Mormon Coffee community. That, and the fact that later this week Christians all over the world remember and contemplate the crucifixion of Jesus, which was preceded by some of His less-than-nice behavior.
Matt Walsh writes about the Jesus he finds in the Bible:
“I read of a strong, manly, stern, and bold Savior. Compassionate, yes. Forgiving, of course. Loving, always loving. But not particularly nice.
“He condemned. He denounced. He caused trouble. He disrupted the established order.
“On one occasion — or at least one recorded occasion — He used violence. This Jesus saw the money changers in the temple and how did He respond? He wasn’t polite about it. I’d even say He was downright intolerant. He fashioned a whip (this is what the lawyers would call ‘premeditation’) and physically drove the merchants away. He turned over tables and shouted. He caused a scene. [John 2:15]
“Assault with a deadly weapon. Vandalism. Disturbing the peace. Worse still, intolerance.
“In two words: not nice…
“Jesus deliberately did and said things that He knew would upset people. He stirred up division and controversy. He provoked. He didn’t have to break from established customs, but He did. He didn’t have to heal that man’s hand on the Sabbath, knowing how it would disturb others and cause them immense irritation, but He did, and He did so with ‘anger’ [Mark 3:5]. He could have gone with the flow a little bit. He could have chilled out and let bygones be bygones, but He didn’t. He could have been diplomatic, but He wasn’t.
“He could have told everyone to relax, but instead He made them uncomfortable. He could have put them at ease, but He chose to put them on edge.”
And by putting them on edge, He made enemies. Yet He didn’t flinch, even though He knew His enemies would put Him to death. Death on a cross. For them. For the sake of – and because of love for — His enemies.
Now, as Matt Walsh notes, Jesus is God and we are not. Jesus has more street cred than we do. So shouldn’t we be nicer than Jesus was? Shouldn’t we avoid confrontation and dispute, and be willing to just agree to disagree? In Matt’s words,
“[W]e are called to be like Christ, which begs the question: what is Christ like?
“Well, He is, among other things, uncompromising. He is intolerant of evil. He is disruptive. He is sometimes harsh. He is sometimes impolite. He is sometimes angry.
“He is always loving.”
So must we be always loving.
Love has many faces. It is loving to comfort; it is also loving to challenge. It is loving to encourage; and it is loving to pull the rug out from under someone who is complacently living a lie while heading for a Christ-less eternity.
Jesus’ love compelled Him to both tenderness and aggressive confrontation. So too, as the Bible says, Christ’s love compels us (2 Corinthians 5:14), His people:
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” (2 Corinthians 5:20)
Why? Because the day of God’s wrath is coming. We’ve seen Jesus angry, and we’ve seen the earth quake at His death; but honestly, we ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
When Jesus returns He will have a sickle in His hand to reap grapes of wrath. A sharp sword will proceed out of His mouth to strike the nations. And when the winepress of the wrath of God is trampled, blood will flow from it for miles. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire (see Revelation chapters 14, 19 and 20).
When Jesus returns, He’s not going to be nice.
Does it offend you, Mormon friends, to be shown that you are following a false prophet? Does it upset you when we demonstrate that your church is not the kingdom of God on earth as it claims? Does it hurt your feelings when we point out that the Bible says all your so-called works of righteousness are but filthy rags before our holy God? Or when we warn you that the Christ of Mormonism is a “different Jesus”? Or when we proclaim that your only eternal hope is to trust in the true Christ, and to trust in Him alone? So be it. It may not sound especially nice, but we implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God.
OK were talking about strategy, tactics, manner, approaches, comportment…………………….
Bottom line? We need to be effective. What does the Book of Ecclesiastes teach in it’s opening verses? There’s a time and place for everything under heaven. Being aggressive and in peoples’ faces might not be a real good approach most of the time. Being direct doesn’t have to be nasty.
We are told to contend earnestly for the faith (see the Book of Jude); that was once and for all delivered to the saints. The “saints” being the true believers in Christ; which is us.
There are lots of ways to do that and I think being friendly and polite doesn’t mean we’re compromising what we believe in.
It would have been interesting to watch Jonathan Edwards deliver his sermon “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” From what I’m told he use to just read it. People would grab the support pillars in the church for fear they’d slip into hell. I would guess he got a pretty good response when he gave the altar call.
“Edwards pulls no punches when it comes to condemning the sinfulness of human beings. Those who belong in the ‘unrepentant’ category may be those who are outwardly wicked and reject God or they might be people who are complacent. They could belong to a community of people who believe and they think they can ride that community’s or family’s coattails to avoid judgment. But Edwards’s view of sin is that it’s an active force in the world that’s ultimately controlled by the devil. Anyone who hasn’t experienced an inward renewal or ‘awakening,’ as had the many who had been converted during this time, is considered a servant of the devil: ‘They belong to him; he has their souls in his possession, and under his dominion.’ This way of portraying ‘sinners’ emphasizes their helpless, precarious position, but also the nastiness and corruption of their ways.”
http://education-portal.com/academy/lesson/sinners-in-the-hands-of-an-angry-god-by-edwards-summary-analysis-metaphors.html#lesson
Good morning Sharon , another dead on article , but that kinda sounds not nice the dead part lol.
Its amazing how when you give your opinion on the Mormon church the other very bad word we hear is ” You are judging us ” or judging the church or me ” I get sick of that word and how they make it sound mean, or not nice, but reading your article this morning, the truth is not nice those who do not live it . Glad for this site and the time you put into Sharon . I truly appreciate it every single day.
Happy Easter
I have to kind of smile when I see this. You see, Paul had the right of it, be all things to all people. In other words, there is a time and a place for everything. In some instances, we are tolerant and patient and in others, not so much. Why does it matter? I think Sharon gave us that answer. In my interaction with Mormons, I’ve had all kinds of different approaches. In one group I’m in that includes many Historians, we have active and ex members and never Mormons all talking to each other with the focus of discussing Mormon History and Theology. I don’t run into any problems there.
It is when I get out into the general public that problems arise, because you then have many Mormons saying (if you are critical at all of the Church, or J. Smith, or their leadership today) that you are “contentious”, disrespectful and that this is totally un-Biblical. Well, it isn’t. In fact, the behavior of Jesus chronicled in the post above, was carried on by his Apostles and by Jesus himself when he spoke to John:
In no uncertain terms does Jesus tell us to “hate” the evil works of those who are in opposition to the Gospel. To “test” those who call themselves apostles and are not. Peter, in his 2nd Letter, lambastes false teachers:
After saying this, he calls them out and describes them as
He continues with,
He then finishes with,
This is one of the most forceful and descriptive passages about false teachers in the writings of the Apostles. I’ve used it many times to counter the argument that I’m just being “contentious” and therefore “of the devil”. That I should not call out false teachers or false doctrine. But it never seems to make an impression, for in any new conversation, the same accusations begin all over again.
It’s been pointed out many times on this blog that we run into different types of Mormons. Some are just terribly naive about Mormonism, its founder and history. That’s why it all sounds so harsh to them when someone exposes the truth about the “prophet” Joseph Smith. These naive folks have no idea what this guy was all about. It’s not that difficult to get the information if someone is inclined to look. That’s why there’s a malady in Mormonism called “shaken faith syndrome”. It occurs when these naive folks are faced with the truth that they can’t deny.
I’ve spoken about being at Mormon historical sites and seeing all these devout, sincere Mormons walking about like they’re in the midst of a religious utopia. My wife and I sat behind a young couple at the visitors center at the Carthage Jail. They were showing a movie about the prophet Smith. These people were in some reverential dream state by the look on their faces. I was ready to barf watching this fairy tale movie. I wanted to ask them, “When are we going to get to the part where Joseph has sex with a couple of adolescent girls and the women who were married to other men?” I suppose there must be an “X” rated version of Smith’s life some where.
The point is, if any factual information had been given to this couple at that moment, they would have thought it to be harsh, condemning, slanderous and an attack on the “one true church” and it’s founder.
I don’t think we should ever be constrained by our fears that we may offend someone by speaking the truth. We can be as gentle as a dove and it will all sound like harsh, critical yelling to these tender hearted naive people.
Falcom said
I’m not, but here are some problems I see and have seen over the years that I have been a christian.
It’s more a problem of, do we believe the Bible or dont we? I agree with all the scripture Grindael posted, but at the same time, we can quote scriptrue and write these articles, but the question still remains, do we live it out and believe it or not?
I have no problems being bold and blunt and telling it like it is, I also back up everything I say, and the times that I dont, if people say, back it up I will. Examples, I never just start saying to LDS on this blog, you guys lie and are liars, I clealy state How and why they did and do lie.
But then I always seem to get believer or two coming and complaing I am being mean or harsh and complaing about how I say things. But heres another problem, I’m the only one that seems to get attacked. I claim mormon lies and some one gets mad at me, yet Grindeal will and has said the same things I have and no one ever says boo to him, or sometimes Falcon will say and do the same things as me and again no says boo to him.
I have also pointed out, that Jesus and the apostles did and said the same things Grindael pointed out, but I always here, Well the apostles and Jesus can say and do those things but you cannot.
I also hear people say, well we simply expect False prophets and liars to teach and preach false things and lie. So that makes it ok? You mean we cannot point these things out and call them out?
I’m big on pointing out FoF ignoring questions, and only asking them and then accusing us of getting our facts wrong, yet never stating how or why were getting them wrong. And I point out over and over that he does this becasue you never know when someone will come here and read something he wrote orwe wrote. This could be the persons first day here and never reply so we wont know they are here.
Yet if I dont say anything, this person or people might really believe FoF is an honest mormonwho replies to everything and were simply being mean, Yet if I understand correctly from a previous reply, If I keep doing this, I might get banned, yet FoF can come here, Lie, and everyone knows he does it, he can keep avoiding questions, and accusing us of getting our facts wrong, and thats ok, because it just expected thats what he will do. But God forbid we point this out, otherwise it will be removed or we will be removed.
FoF has done it again, his newest post ignores everything pointed out and he asked more questions, does any one really want to live as this article says, and live out what they preach and say in this scripture or not? If I’m wrong explian how.
I wont name names as I was asked not to, but I will say their is a person or two that when talking via private emails feels the same way as I do about what I said in my last post, so I’m not alone on this, it’s just a matter of will the people who feel the same way speak up or keep quite so as to not offend people.
I left the Church this year after 12 years of active membership. Ultimately it was an indepth study of the New Testament that opened up the message of Grace to me. Especially the book of Romans and Galatians. I am now attending a Community Church in my town that has really fed me spiritually. While I agree that Mormonism is a dangerous heresy, I am troubled that so many Christians miss the message of the New Testament. Not so much in their dealings with Mormons, but in their treatment and view of unbelieving sinners. They end up falling back into the same type of error that the Mormons are under. Often times Christians fail to remember that we are made righteous through the blood of Jesus Christ and not of ourselves. We are all sinners and we all fall short. From the self righteous blogger to the drug addicted prostitute there is no difference. We all have sinned and deserve death. We are made righteous through Jesus Christ, not through things that we have done. The only thing that separates us from those who will experience the wrath of God is our faith in Jesus Christ. Please understand that I am not downplaying the importance of sanctifying yourself. I just want to point out that its not through the sanctification process that you become righteous. Through the process of sanctification we increase our obedience and works which cause us to feel the love of Christ and walk closer with him, but we are in fact no more righteous after years of sanctifying ourselves than we were when we first believed. To be righteous in the eyes of God is to be completely without sin. No one can do that and that’s why our righteousness is in Christ. You may sin differently than someone else, but the penalty for all sin is death no matter what the sin. Remember that the fact we are sanctifying ourselves is evidence of our Salvation not the cause of it. Many Christians are doing a marvelous job of making people aware of their sins, but never bringing them into the redemption that is found in Christ. I think Romans Ch 3 20-31 does a great job illustrating what I am trying to say. Be careful of how you judge sinners. If you want to judge them based on the Law, then you may be surprised to find yourself being judged by the law as well. Remember Jesus’s saved his harshest words for the self righteous pharisees not the sinners. Again I am not excusing sin, just pointing out that we all sin and it isn’t our abandonment of sin that makes us righteous, it is our faith in Jesus Christ.
First: I think the “play nice” theme from Mormons is simply a tool to disarm people and distract the discussion. After all, isn’t it much easier to accuse someone of being mean than it is to engage in meaningful discussion of topics disfavorable to you? Further, Christ did after all claim to turn the other cheek and all that stuff…. So its an easy answer, and most people don’t like being called mean, so the method gets a desired result.
I agree with everyone else, though, that we s hould not be ashamed to preach the true gospel. Its not a nice one, really. How often have we heard the question about all the really nice people who don’t believe, or the people who have never heard of Jesus, and other related questions. We’ve been accused of being narrow minded and exclusionary because only those who believe are saved. The salvation message can be a difficult one to accept, especially to those like Mormons who put their whole being into something diametrically opposed to the simple Gospel message.
But we need to remain faithful to the Gospel message. We cannot water it down, and we cannot pick and choose what we like and dislike. The Gospel message saves, and we need to live it out and make it clear to others that Jesus is the answer.
—
Rick– remember one problem with an online post is that we cannot see expressions or tone of voice. You tend to be very direct, which can come across in ways that are not clear to the person reading your message. This is not a bad thing, necessarily, it just is. As one who has not been sure what your point in a comment to me was, I thought I would share my opinion when receiving a message from you.
Mjp,
if people are not sure what I mean they can ask. But as I said before, I say someone lies or I say someone is a false prophet, I get some Christian crying I cant say that. But then grindael or falcon can say the exact same thing and no one says anything to them. I pointed this out a few times over the years to someone who kept getting on me. They never did give me an answer why they had a problem with me saying things but others got a free pass from this person.
Rick–
Wish I had an answer for you. Frustrating though that may be, I think you should carry on as you do.
I agree– people should ask if they have a question, which is what I have done.
But there is no reason to hold back in Christ. I remember a sermon series at my old church (only old because we moved) on meekness and humbleness, and how these term is very badly misused. Meek does not mean weak, and humble does not mean bowing down to others. Meekness is more akin to acting as a servant and humbleness is knowing your place and acting appropriately within it. Nice is not a part of either definition. There is room for boldness and aggressiveness in them, and as Christians we are called to be bold in our faith.
I am not familiar with the person who you said called you out while ignoring others, though.
luvinlife,
You’ve come a long way in a short time.
Share with us, if you feel led to, your personal story of leaving Mormonism. All of us here find these testimonies encouraging.
My small piece of advice; just stay with the Word of God and question everything people tell you. Dr. Walter Martin use to say, “Question everything people tell you and that includes what I tell you!”
I’m really stuck on the basic core beliefs of orthodox Christianity. The rest is someone’s opinion or “take”. Some are better than others.
The problem with Mormons is that they are stuck with this “one true church” and “a living prophet speaking for God” scenario. They are trapped as long as they believe that there is such a thing as a one true church and a prophet with the definitive word.
Don’t get me wrong, I believe in NT Gifts of the Spirit which includes prophecy and also in the office of the prophet in the five fold ministry of the Holy Spirit, but we are required to be sharp and discerning.
Luvinlife:
Welcome. I would only respond to your comments with this question: how are we to address the sin of others without telling them about it? I ask this question especially in the context of the Mormon.
I agree we are to be careful of sinning while accusing others of sin, and that even the slightest sin is worthy of death. But pointing out error is not in and of itself sin. So, how do we correct without verbalizing what needs correcting?
rick,
This is an excellent timing for the current article to appear. We’ve been treated for some time to a TBM troll who, I believe, considers it a success if the Christian posts become about him, his character and his tactics. We walk a fine line. The chance of this guy getting flipped is pretty remote as I, in the flesh, see it. But most of us are very resolute, focused, have a clear sense of mission when it comes to the task God has called us to. Our real goal is to be of service to those who are questioning Mormonism and need answers and encouragement. I don’t know if our purpose is to debate arrogant TBMs who aren’t really moving towards knowing God. Jim Spencer says that with this type what we do is knock a little paint off their testimony.
If it’s any consolation for us, I believe the Church Fathers went through this same thing with the heretics.
I guess my point is, it’s easy to get drawn into skirmishes and miss the main battle.
MJP,
It’s not your job to address the sin of others. It’s your job to share the message of the Gospel. It’s your job to show the unbeliever the liberty and redemption that is found in Christ. Let God deal with the sin through conviction. Remember it’s not until we have been saved and our heart is regenerated that we truly have the power to stop serving sin. I truly feel that the first thing a person should feel from a Christian is Love. If the first thing you show to some one is condemnation then you have totally missed the message of the Bible. Let me first say that if you want to truly witness to someone, then it needs to happen in person. They need to be able to look into your eyes and see the passion you have for God. They need to feel the love of Christ through you. That’s what will open their eyes. Not judgemental comments over the internet. (not accusing you just making an example :). Lets say I had a coworker that was addicted to drugs. I could tell him that what he is doing is a sin according to the Bible and that he will burn in hell if he doesn’t stop. He would then began to examine me and see that I still have sin and feel like I am a hypocrite. Or I could lovingly explain to him the tools that Satan uses to put us into bondage. I could show him the love that God has for us by offering us redemption from those chains through His Son. I could show him that I am not perfect, just forgiven. I could let my life be the proof of God’s love. Let God deal with the sin. We just need to show them the wonderful gift that God is offering us. My good works and obedience don’t make me any more deserving of the gift of Grace then the drug addict. The only difference between us is that I have accepted the Gift.
I agree with “luvinlife.” The major issue I have is when Christians start acting more like Rush Limbaugh and less like Jesus. My pastor said it well in his sermon yesterday – that to learn what Christianity is, I can’t look to other “Christians” or pastors – the only pure standard to look at is Jesus himself as he is revealed in the bible. Yes, we are to be “salt and light” but we are so bad at it sometimes that we end up turning our faith into nothing more than an exclusive conservative idealism. If we can turn people to the “source” – he will convict them through his word and bring them to himself. I can say this after spending years as a self-righteous mormon.
Luvinlife,
It seems to me that you have made a judgmental comment over the internet directed at MJP. The Holy Spirit dictates what our “job” is to be. Paul, for example, taught many with letters because he was imprisoned and could not be there personally. Each case is different, and I believe we must be cautious not to blanket rule everything, because everyone is different and have been given different gifts by the Holy Spirit.
Luvinlife, welcome !
Merrick, I appreciate the contributions of you and the other ex-Mormons here , especially since
you have’nt given up on Jesus and have turned to Him and the freedom He offers .
I think Sharon’s post is a good reminder of how Jesus treated people differently . He was not
to patient with the religious leaders , but He was respectful and compassionate to the rank and
file . That to me is how we should should treat Mormons . Mormon leaders , and their arrogant
defenders, are one type of Mormon , and the vast majority of rank and file LDS are another.
I try to always apply 1 Pt 3: 15 to those LDS who are the majority of whom I have met , they are
decent , hard working , neighborly type people, but they have been misled by their leaders .
I reach out to them in love and respect because I really do love them .
On the other hand Mormon leaders are deceivers . They look well dressed , act polite in public ,
etc , but they are those of whom Jesus said would come , especially in the latter days — false
prophets —-wolves — Matt 7:15 ; 24:11 .
Sadly , there is a terrible price to pay for following false prophets —- Isa. 9: 16
Thankfully , MRM reaches out to not only help warn Christains about Mormonism , but to
also help the Mormon people to see the need to stop in their busy lives to test their prophets
teachings — 1 Jn 4:1 . Because sincere people can be deceived by latter days false prophets .
Luvinlife, you said
You need to remember that Jesus told people, You are in error and dont know the scriptures. Also the Bible tells us, we need to be aware of Wolves in sheeps clothing and false prophets. Many people do not know who these wolves and false teachers are, yes they need to be expoused and pointed out as such, so Its not wrong to point them out, If you remember Paul called out people and named names.
Falcon, I think I said this once before, but in case I did not. I agree to a point, that it is pointless to debate the TBM, but if it were a private email, or in person, one on one, I would stop. But when they come here and are allowed to post and keep claiming were wrong, then I will confront them, otherwise If we just ignore them and keep quite, people might or will believe they are correct and figure if we are keeping silent we must be wrong and they are correct.
MJP, My pastor has said this many times and I have seen it in my life also, the most outspoken people that “attack” us, our fellow believers. Their was a website, it now no longer exists, but it was called, reach out trust. I was their for years sharing with Mormons, but their was a christian there who did not like what I said and how I said it, the LDS respected me and had no problems with me being blunt, but this christian kept complaining about me. So I pointed out how I share Jesus with the LDS and if and when he reply’s he only complains about me.
Finally one day He got put in a postion of being a Mod and had me removed. No other christian or LDS had any issues with me, just him. I have also heard this saying for years and it seems to be true, Christians are the only ones to shoot there wounded. Even people in my own church have complained to the pastor, I dont like how Rick says things, so My pastor says, instead of complaining about my style, why dont you yourself share Jesus. We also both point out, Jesus made a whip of cords and cleansed the temple, and said some harsh things, I guess Jesus was not being Jesus like to do those things.
Or Paul calling down blindness upon a false sorcerr, Not very Jesus like Huh!, Yet if I do that, I seem to have Fellow Chirstians jumping on me. Catty Jane is the best example, she would write me in private, she came out of Mormonism, not becasue of me, but becasue Of Jesus, but she openly states, My blunt, tell it like it is style was just what she needed. People can complain about it, but God does use it and used it in her life.
Luvinlife: so, to your hypothetical druggy friend who lives in Colorado, how is he to know smoking pot (for instance) is a sin unless he is directly told so? And be careful not to confuse being direct and open about sin with being judgmental about it.
You say the first thing should be about Christ’s love. Perhaps, but Christ’s righteousness needs to see high priority, too. This is something I would call a grey area, which is to say there is room for discussion and differing opinions.
Others have heard me say that I think Jesus needs to be first in our lives in every sense. I believe that fully, and this applies when discussing false prophets, too. The trouble with leaving somethings unsaid and demonstrating Christ’s love shows itself when discussing with folks like Mormons, who in many ways act the same way. However, their acts and their behavior does not change that they worship a false Christ, which leads not to eternal life but damnation.
Discussions, therefore, must be had. This does not mean we ignore our own behavior or stop loving them fully. That brings me back to the admonition about confusing confrontation of sin and judging. Confronting sin does not automatically mean we judge the person. Some discussions are necessary.
Rick– keep on keepin’ on. There’s absolutely a place for the straight shooter who holds nothing back. I think we are all honest here when we write, but some of us take a more diplomatic approach. There is a need for every type.
Its unfortunate, but true, that Christians are our own worst enemy, in more ways than one. Its always fascinated me how un-Christian we can be to our own people. I do think people miss so much of the “meanness” of Jesus, and get offended when they hear a Christian be “mean”.
Alas…
MJP,
I never thought I would see this day happen, Ever, but I was asked by my Pastor if I wanted my own Internet raido show. I asked him, what do I talk about and how does all that work, thinking he or others would tell me what to say or do. He said, the whole show is mine, I can speak my mind, be myself and tell it like it is.
Everything about the show is mine, to who I interview and what I say. So I have my website all up and running, it is, http://www.fightingfortruth.com.
Created the entire thing the exact way I wanted it. It was supposed to start this past Sat, but has been pushed to May 3rd, partly due to tech issues on the internet raido side, and some things on my side that were not well explaind. I will tell it like it is, call it as I see it, and I will name names and discuss the issues christians are afraid to talk about for fear of being PC and offending people.
One thing I plan to talk about are issues like this, Christians being to afraid to speak their mind and cannot be blunt or attack fellow believers for doing so. And If people are afraid to hear the truth or cannot handle people being blunt like me, then my show will not be for you.
And believe it or not, My pastor and His wife and some fellow people in my church both cannot wait for my show, and expect lots of people to listen. And the best thing is, the way this internet raido works, all messages from me, or any one else, or even music is heard by people all over the world. They have some way of tracking what countries listen and it’s truly amazing. So finally someone who so loves me being blunt, they offered me a raido show. Truly amazing.
MJP said,
Luvinlife: so, to your hypothetical druggy friend who lives in Colorado, how is he to know smoking pot (for instance) is a sin unless he is directly told so?
I say,
Maybe the Holy Spirit could convict him of his sin?
Quote:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(Joh 16:7-8)
end quote:
I find that most of the time people already know that they are sinners. They don’t need me to tell them.
Quote:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
(Rom 1:32)
end quote:
If someone asks me what the Bible says about a particular behavior I have no problem telling them what I know and if someone goes around falsely calling evil good I’ll be all over that but in my experience pointing out the sins of others is often overkill.
I understand that we each have our own gifts and callings and God could very well use someone to point out the sins of others so I’m not telling anyone to shut up and I don’t want to imply that I have not seen anything on this blog that has struck me as in anyway inappropriate for a follower of Christ.
I just ask you who feel so lead make sure that it is the Spirit who is leading you and that you speak the truth in love.
peace
First off I am not accusing or passing judgment on MJP. As mentioned in my post I was just making an example. I know nothing of MJP, nor have I taken the time to read any of his posts to see where he stands. I was merely trying to answer one of his questions about addressing sin. As for the hypothetical friend, I don’t need to necessarily show him all of his sins. I need to show him who Christ is and what he did for us. You say Christ’s righteousness needs to see high priority. How so? What is Christs righteousness? Is it works of the Law (or obedience)? Will the hypothetical friend become more righteous when he abandons pot? Will he become righteous through works of the flesh or works of the spirit? When he abandons pot will he be more deserving of the Gift of Grace? If I only address smoking pot with him then why not address every single sin he has? Are there any difference in sin? As with my initial comment my words were directed at how Christians handle unbelieving sinners not so much Mormons. Mormons are a whole different ball park. However I can guarantee you all the Historical proof of issues and all the evidence you want to show a Mormon will have no where near the impact that reading the new Testament will. You first must get them to trust the Bible, then you must get them to read it. As with Mormons and unbelievers alike, you must get them to understand the true message of Grace. Mormon’s are even more difficult because they are under a spiritual blindness. It felt like a fog to me. You can’t pierce that merely by pointing out their sin or error. Only the word of God can pierce through that fog. Give them the Romans Challenge and ask them to discuss what they read with you.
I guess where I messed up was making a post about how Christians treat unbelieving sinners in a section about Christians confronting Mormons. Mormons probably fall more closely to the category of the pharisee than anything. I can remember going to General Conference and seeing people holding up signs and shouting. These signs had scriptures on them that really mean something to me now, however at the time I saw the signs I got nothing from it. Seeing the people with the signs yelling only caused me to lean harder on Mormonism and look at their opposition as part of Satan’s attacks against the Church. What had an impact on me is the Word of God as found in the New Testament. The book of Galatians hit me like a ton of bricks. That’s were the key to getting them to see their error is. Let Jesus tell them through the Bible. They may not take your word for it, but they will listen to him when his spirit begins to speak truth to them. I am not advocating letting them believe their errors or saying you should leave things unsaid. I am saying that there is a right and wrong way about telling them. All you will do is make another atheist if you don’t first restore their confidence in the Bible. Trust me I am going through this process with my wife and her family. It isn’t easy. It takes time. If I bust in the house and flip over the coffee table with the book of Mormon on it and tell them they are deceived how far do you think I will get? Jesus may have done it with the pharisees, but I am not Jesus. He was God, and I am not.
“What had an impact on me is the Word of God as found in the New Testament. The book of Galatians hit me like a ton of bricks.”
Amen. Let the Word speak. Nobody has ever been converted by signs, shirts, or bumperstickers, but by the the Spirit who redeems lost man. There is life in the Word, not the illusion thereof, but true life.
luvinlife,
I echo what Mistaken Testimony just said .
May God Bless you and your family as you navigate through the process of leaving Mormonism
completely behind emotionally . It will take time but you will make it .
FOF has been asked repeatedly to give us evidence for his views, and he won’t. We have asked him repeatedly to stop the personal attacks, misquoting people, and creating false dichotomies, and he won’t. He simply wants to be a troll. FOF is therefore banned from MC. ~grindael
Luvinlife and Merrick,
I think its awesome Luvinlife that you have realized how deceitful the LDS church is. I don’t think that speaking to people still in this faith has anything to do with pointing out sin (disobedience to the instructions that God has given us). I has more to do with what Jesus says Matthew 24.
“Let no man deceive you by any means. For many will come in my nature and likeness and will deceive many”.
Its not about pointing out sin but pointing out where they are being lied to by this doctrine. I don’t think I am mean in what I say. I don’t really have an angle with anything I say either. I just say what comes to mind. It isn’t my job to deliver anyone out of the quicksand. God is the only one who can deliver someone. All I can do is point out what doesn’t line up in scripture and the only reason I can do that is because God has placed someone in my life with that knowledge who has taught me, and that person only has that information because God has given it to them. But if I am given that opportunity to reveal truth where someone has believed a lie it is only because God ordained that appointment. What I am saying is that everything is by God alone. God is the only one that can circumcise a persons eyes and ears to see and hear truth. But I pray that if something is stirred within a persons heart that they would seek God while he can be found. At some point a persons heart can be hardened beyond return.
Luvinlife,
On another note I must not have been a typical Mormon. As a Mormon I believed in Jesus so what the NT said didn’t really make a difference to me. I would have told you that we both believe in Jesus so whats your problem? Its the identity of Jesus and the extras about who he is and his relation to the Father and to myself that start the crisis. As a Mormon I believed that Jesus forgave my sin so there again, whats the problem? The difference was I had a way to receive a greater place within the heavens because of all the temple works etc. That is where the difference comes in.
So for me it was a totally different route. Ask these poor souls on this blog who had to deal with me!
When I realized that the LDS doctrine was a lie, I completely let go of the NT as well. I had to start all over from, who is God, what was the temple for, who is the Messiah, what was the role of Messiah, etc. There is so much I cant list it all but that is the basics.
cattyjane, you mentioned that when you were a Mormon you believed in Jesus , that He forgave
you of your sin etc . , but did you ever pray directly to Him while you were a Mormon ?
I’m curious to hear your experience about this . Thanks .
grindael,
As I’m sure you are aware, these arrogant TBM types have a habit of reappearing under a different handle. But I know that the mods are ever vigilant in identifying those who might attempt this.
It’s really too bad when you think about it. There’s a note of desperation as these types try to hold on to what they desire to believe in under the crushing evidence that it’s all a sham.
I was watching a video presentation of Grant Palmer and during the question and answer portion someone asked him what he had concluded about Joseph Smith after all of his (Palmer’s) years of studying the guy. Mr. Palmer simply said that Smith was a con man. That was it! No long explanations.
That is what Mormons have to eventually come to conclude also if they can put their pride aside and deal with the facts.
CattyJane,
I don’t know your story, but I bet you had never read the New Testament all the way through before. My guess is that you were like most of us and you stuck to the scriptures that were quoted in the correlated manuals. You say that you are having to relearn everything about God and his message. Where are you learning this new information? The Bible? So you see my point? As a TBM this information as found in the New Testament can have a huge impact. It’s when your eyes open to the true message of Grace that you realize how different it is than what you had been taught. Slowly you begin to understand the difference between Justification and Sanctification. You realize that your salvation doesn’t depend on a Church or its ordinances. It depends on Jesus Christ alone and you recieve it through Faith. That’s the message in the New Testament that will rock a Mormons world.
Hey FOF,
I hope you take grindael’s statement to heart
You seem like a nice enough fellow and I assume you will interact with Christians in the future and it will help those conversations if you try and understand what lead to the frustrations of the folks here.
It’s not that people could not handle the message you were trying to relate in fact most of the time your “message” was obscured by the extracurriculars .
peace
Mike R,
No I always prayed to the Father, not to Jesus but I would pray in his name. My prayer life is still very similar to that now. If I went into detail about this I would probably get jumped on so I should probably just leave it at that.
Luvinlife,
Honestly I never read much of the bible at all while I believed in the doctrine of the LDS church. I read a lot of the scriptures now. I will be honest, I read a lot more of the Old Test than the NT and it wasn’t the NT that brought me to an understanding of who the Messiah is. But I think it can be different for everyone.
The New Testament is the only way you can come to a true understanding of who the Messiah is. For you maybe that was done through some one else teaching you the truths, but the fact is those truths you were taught came from the New Testament. It’s those truths that will bring a Mormon to a saving relationship with Christ. I think the fact that there are so many atheist ex Mormons supports the point that it is vital to show them their errors through getting them to study the Bible. Otherwise you run the very likely risk of destroying their faith in God completely.
Mjp,
I have a question for you. About a week ago, maybe a little longer some one posted an insult about me on my website, then a few days later they did it again. I tried emailing them and the email address was fake. Now this same person posted yesterday and again on my blog, but this newest two times, they posted word for word something you said to me on this blog.
I highly doubt you posted it, but I need to ask. Im thinking there is a blog troll one this website who is now following mine and looking to start stuff. Thanks.
All, I agree with the conclusion we need to focus on allowing Christ to work on the individual through the Holy Spirit. We cannot and ought not think we can do something only God can do. However, I do think there are times when we need to speak up. I also don’t believe we are talking against each other here. Rather, I think we are talking opposite sides of the same coin. I am taking the position now that we have to speak up from time to time and get harsh and get specific with people. This may not be the norm, but I think we are remiss to deny this truth. I can list numerous examples of when this would be true, where silence and prayer alone does more harm than good.
Further, I would add that people react in different ways from different approaches. There is no one-size-fits-all method of evangelism. Some people need a swift kick in the rear to get it. We have to know when to see this, but this is all a part of listening to the Spirit and knowing our strengths.
Certainly, the New Testament is important, but I agree with Catty in that there are those in Mormonism who don’t take it seriously. Sometimes more is needed.
Rick–
No, that was not me.
What were the email addresses they used? Mine is [email protected]. Feel free to forward them to me as I am curious how they are using my words.
Mjp, I agree with what you said and what many either dont know about me, or only focus on one thing is this, I am loving and gentle with mormons. But once I see they are lying or dont care and are false prophets, I deal with them differently.
Also I believe way to many people only give a one sided gospel, either its all he’ll fire and damnationn, or its all love and grace. Jesus taught and preached both and we need to also.
Also if Jesus and his apostles told people they were wrong, they were children of the devil, they named names, said to ban people from fellowship, then we should be able to do that also.
This has been my approach for years, sadly way to many believers cry about this and claim its wrong.
Luvinlife,
I think you say that because you are trying to use the single argument of grace over works and using Pauls letters to do that. See this is what FOF was trying to get everyone in here to understand but it wouldnt sink in. Mormons dont have an issue with believing Jesus died for their sins, its the extras added to that doctrine that creates the falsehood. As a Mormon believer did I think that I had to believe in Jesus to be saved? Yes. Did I get baptised and receive the Holy Spirit? I thought I did. But the falsehood surrounding the identity and character of these three makes it a different God that I was serving. As a Mormon I never believed works got me INTO “heaven” but I believed it got me into a higher level, so to speak, of heaven.
When I was lds I would have told you that I did not believe I would be a God but that I would be like God, which we all know to be blasphemy. I would have told you that Go, the Father, has a physical body like you and I do. Which we also know to be a lie because God is spirit. Where do you explain this in NT?
I guarentee my path away from the LDS beliefs is very different from most but I think it provides answers to a lot of things that the NT doesnt explain, because it didnt need to for people in those times.
I have a very different perspective of the NT from probably everyone on this blog but if I say something that they disagree with they are usually quick to let me know about it.
CattyJane,
All of the answers are in the Bible to those questions. Including why we no longer need an earthly priesthood. If your understanding of Jesus and his Gospel is founded on anything other than your own in depth study of the Bible then you are in danger of falling into the same type of error that Mormonism led you into. There is much more to the new testament than just answered about works and Grace. Based on your comments I feel like you probably don’t fully understand the Mormon Doctrine. My wife and her family though life long members were in the same boat. I had to get them to dig back into the Mormon doctrine first to totally understand what the Church teaches. I had to meticulously explain D&C 132 so they could understand why plural marriage was still part of the standard works. Eternal life to a Christian is pretty much what making it to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom is to a Mormon. Eternal life for a Christian is recieved by faith in Jesus Christ. Eternal life (living in the presence of God and Jesus) is Exaltation to a Mormon. Open your gospel principles manual and look at all the requirements listed for exaltation. Then you will see the drastic difference in what the Bible teaches is required for eternal life vs what Mormonism teaches. There is so much more to talk about, but the fact is the Bible must be your source for understanding Christ. You can’t rely on anything or anyone else.
luvinlife,
One observation. I was an atheist for 25 years after leaving Mormonism. For me, the New Testament did not do any good at all. And reading the Bible did not bring me back to God. It was events in my life that I came to believe were influenced by God. At the time, and shortly after my escape from Mormonism, you could not get me to read the Bible with any kind of faith at all, because I was so bitter towards God. Years later, it was the Holy Spirit that drew me to God and opened my mind and allowed me to read the New Testament free from pre-conceived notions. I admit, everyone is different. That is why I believe that the Holy Spirit has everything to do with this. For some, they may be open to God even after leaving Mormonism. But for many, they are not. That creates a dilemma for those who think that “If I can just get them to read the Bible…” They simply won’t do it, or won’t do it with any kind of an open mind. In most cases, (IMO) you can’t show atheists “their errors” by simply getting them to read the Bible, because they refuse to see.
The Father draws all to Christ. It may take some far longer, as in my case. After their hearts are softened, the New Testament is vital. I don’t disagree with that. For me, and many others that I know, their faith in God WAS destroyed completely. Only God can change that, and many times it takes more than just reading the NT. And, I’m not saying “don’t try”.
Catty, we love you! As evidenced from the conversation above, you are not the only one to receive feedback when others disagree with you. Its part of what this site is: a ministry to Mormons about the true Jesus, but that includes discussion of the finer points of Christianity.
I’ve not made it a secret I believe there can be a rather wide umbrella of Christian beleif as long as the core beliefs of Christ are correct, namely His very identity and what He did for us on the cross. I beleive Jesus maker us whole upon our belief in Him, though even with the topic of works there is room to discuss as long as works are not substitutionary to Christ’s saving power.
That’s one of the areas where Mormons go astray: they require works, and despite faith, absence of works damns a person, or at least prevents them from attaining the higher levels of heaven. They also identify Christ wrongly. Jesus is a completely different person to Mormons, despite their insistence the beliefs are very similar.
Within Christendom, some beliefs vary, and that’s OK. But the mode of baptism or whether to use real wine or grape juice for communion does not address one of the core aspects of Christianity. Even whether one is required to say the Rosary does not change that it is not the work that saves but Christ.
Its much easier to look at the differences and get angry with each other, but that’s going to condemn us all. As Rick suggests, there are many different sides to Christianity and Christ Himself. Peter was told not to deny those who eat unclean things. Paul tells us to be everything to everyone who might here the message. And let’s be honest, while the Bible is very clear on many important things, it is not clear on others.
Its wiser to focus on that which is clear and not divide over that which is unclear. I think the community here by and large does that well. I hope it continues to do so.
Luvinlife,
You are probably right about that. I would agree my understanding of the beliefs were very basic until I started looking into stuff. Im just telling you what I would have told you when I believed the church doctrine. I believed what I was told. I didnt question or try to see if it lined up with scripture. I wasnt super involved at the church like most people are. I wouldnt call myself an expert on lds doctrine. I just know what I thought to be true then and what I know now that makes it not true. I just come here to discuss and share my ideas. Its a blog. Thats what its for. I dont google information and try to sound all smart on here. Im not trying to impress anyone. I wasnt an all star Mormon like FOF. I didnt know the doctrine in and out. I barely knew the basics of the idea of Jesus and God back then.
Honestly tho im confused. Was there a concern about something specific I said?
Grindael,
My point here is to try to keep Mormons from becoming atheists in the first place. You must agree that it is the Bible where you now find answers and understanding. Those answers have always been there. How different would your story have been if someone who was knowledgeable about the bible would have challenged you to study and discuss the Book of Romans with them. How different would your experience have been if it was a true understanding of what the Bible teaches about Jesus that opened your eyes to the errors of Mormonism rather than historical issues and such.? It troubles me that some one like cattyJane could pretty much leave the church based on her interactions on this blog without someone strongly encouraging her to dig into the new testament. Even studying it along with her. (I am only speculating here some one may have done that) Also catty the Bible does teach that God is a Spirit as does the Book of Mormon. I strongly incourage you to take the time and start with Romans. Read it and ask questions. I won’t spoil it for you but in the very first chapter of Romans is a scripture that should shake any mormon concerning their belief in who God is.
cattyjane, your reply was kind of what I expected . I won’t mention more, now , as I know that
it takes time to get all the MormonISM out of one’s mind after leaving the Mormon church .
I thank God that you are reading God’s Word . Keep it up .
I would like to mention that since the resurrection of Christ will be celebrated this weekend
this can be a great time for you to ponder more about Him and His love for you .
I’d like to point you to a song by the Hoppers titled ” Yahweh ” . Please check it out , it’s on
u tube .
Take care .
Luvinlife:
You said this earlier:
“It’s not your job to address the sin of others. It’s your job to share the message of the Gospel. It’s your job to show the unbeliever the liberty and redemption that is found in Christ. Let God deal with the sin through conviction. Remember it’s not until we have been saved and our heart is regenerated that we truly have the power to stop serving sin. I truly feel that the first thing a person should feel from a Christian is Love.”
How do you know what catty went through? Or Grindael? Or anyone here, for that matter?
It is when we assume things we do not know that we become most subject to being judgmental. I fully agree that Jesus needs to be front and center, and that we need to share His Word, and that all questions can be answered in the Bible, both parts. However, we always need to be wary of the plank in our own eye. How we come across is important there, and before you allow your being troubled by Catty’s experience, find out what she believes and her journey to get there.
If we are to have faith in Christ, we must allow Him to work however He works in everyone. If we see error, we are to correct that error, which requires an open discussion.
You said this, above, too:
“My wife and her family though life long members were in the same boat. I had to get them to dig back into the Mormon doctrine first to totally understand what the Church teaches. I had to meticulously explain D&C 132 so they could understand why plural marriage was still part of the standard works. Eternal life to a Christian is pretty much what making it to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom is to a Mormon. Eternal life for a Christian is recieved by faith in Jesus Christ. Eternal life (living in the presence of God and Jesus) is Exaltation to a Mormon. Open your gospel principles manual and look at all the requirements listed for exaltation. Then you will see the drastic difference in what the Bible teaches is required for eternal life vs what Mormonism teaches.”
You had to correct them, to get them to see that what they believe is wrong. You are correct to point them to the New Testament, but often it requires assistance of those who are more mature in faith. It was not merely a matter of showing them love: correction was needed. Sure, the correction must be in love, but to say all it takes is love, the Spirit, and the New Testament is not entirely accurate. We have responsibility here as Christians to show the correct direction.
This does not mean we take responsibility for changing their hearts– that is God and only God. But if they do not know the truth, it is harder for them to allow God into their hearts. And God can and does pull people on His own, but we need to be ready to point people in the right direction.
Mjp,
You are not getting what I am saying. What you quoted from me above was a comment I made concerning a non believer. Either way I never said you should not correct or confront a Mormon. Nor did I say you should just blindly point them to the new testament. What I am saying is that a better approach to helping the Mormon is to reestablish his trust and confidence in the Bible before you yank the rug out from underneath him with historical and other issues with the Church. I am advicating digging into a study of the new testament with the Mormon rather than debating historical problems or telling him he is living a lie and going to hell. Yes this will involve correction and instruction. As to Grindeal and cattyJane I meant nothing personal. I was just responding to your comments based on what you said. Again I know nothing about either of your stories outside of what you shared in this post. I don’t have any idea how you all treat Mormons. My response and statements are based on how the article suggests you do it.
Mike R,
I listened to the YHWH by U2. Thats a prayer that is always in my heart. I think you may have caught on to where im at as far as what I believe. I just try not to go into a lot of detail on here about it. I am actually taking the next seven days to do some real spiritual analysis of myself.
Thanks for the video. 🙂
Luvinlife,
Look, I don’t want to divide here, but I am not sure you understand what it is I am saying, either. All I am saying is that correction is necessary, both to Mormons and non-believers. Correction is OK, by the way, and when done correctly is neither judgmental nor aggressive. You seem to disagree that we should correct. You very clearly advocate showering the unbeliever or Mormon in love above all else. I agree, but I temper that with a very frank acknowledgement that sometimes we must be upfront about the sin or wrong belief.
Wrong behaviors can come from any source (apart from God), and likewise, they can be corrected in any sort of manner, certainly in God above all else. But, using the Mormon as the example, people can claim that once they adopted this particular belief, all changed in their life. Does this change in behavior prove the catalyst is of God? No! The Mormon will swear that their turning from alcoholism is from God, just as the evangelical Christian would, or the Muslim, or the Atheist who found a hobby. You can’t really demonstrate the faults of their position from the NT alone, or love for that matter, because the NT is irrelevant to their thinking and they have found love in this other source.
Other behaviors, like my pot example, are so accepted in some parts of society that they are readilly accepted as truth. Try talking to a proponent of legalizing the drug to see what I mean here: they see no harm at all in it. Someone in that culture who accepts Christ might change his mind, but then again, maybe not. After all, where in the Bible does it tell us not to smoke, even tobacco? The best I can think of is that our bodies are living temples that we are to protect, but that does not play into the pro-pot crowd’s argument because they believe it does little to no harm to our bodies.
Sometimes, you have to be willing to call it like it is. Yes, you have to be gentle and not push the person away. Yet sometimes, that is the nature of the beast that they will reject Christ outright, no matter how approached. But if we are silent about a dangerous (not just physicial) behavior, don’t you think we sometimes cause more harm than good?
In the end, all I am saying is that we must be willing to speak up if and when it is necessary. This includes calling out sin. I am not advocating, in the slightest, obnoxious chest beating self-righteousness from us. That gets us nowhere, and I think that is what you are arguing against. Not only does it get us nowhere, but it turns people off from the Christian message.
Earlier you ask about Christ’s righteousness, in response to my assertion that we must remember that, too. Christ’s righteousness demands a perfect product from us. God will judge us, yet it is Christ who covers us from our transgressions when we face judgment. When we sin, we are outside of that covering, and we are to do all we can to not sin. But sin we will, in one way or another. And as iron sharpens iron, so too we are to discuss openly sin. As we discuss it, we are to be aware of our own, and hopefully with the help of others calling us out, too, overcome it. There’s nothing wrong with that. Discussing sin and pointing it out in others is not judging if we are open to the same observations.
So, to reiterate: I see nothing wrong with openly and honestly talking about sin and calling a spade a spade. Christ did. Christ requires perfection, and because we can’t do it ourself, we need help: His, and our brothers and sisters in Him.
If you still disagree, so be it. I welcome you here and hope to see you around into the future.
My story would have been no different. I had knowledgeable people around me. My brother is a Pastor and has been his whole life. I’m very familiar with the Bible, my friend. You don’t have to encourage me to read it. The Holy Spirit has that job. My point is, that you can’t keep Mormons from becoming Atheists, only God can do that. Like I said above, that doesn’t mean I’m telling you not to try.
I’m not worried about Cattyjane, because she is on her own journey, and is on the right track, and willing, like many others here, to study and learn and go where the Spirit leads. God has her back. Second MJP’s comments here.