In October (2014) Mormon blogger Jana Riess wrote about the “shadow side” of Mormonism: the “tendency to idolize – as in actually make idols of – the men who run our church. An idol is anything we use as a substitute for God,” Dr. Riess wrote, “and I feel that sometimes, we cross that line in Mormon culture.”
Citing the beloved Mormon hymn, “Praise to the Man,” that idolizes Joseph Smith as an intercessor for people in heaven, Dr. Riess admonished, “That is not okay.” Referencing Terryl and Fiona Givens’ book, The Crucible of Doubt, she explained that the Givenses
“beautifully get to the heart of one of the greater dangers of idolatry, that we will surrender our own agency and growth. We are so very eager to avoid making decisions ourselves: ‘too often, we confuse the call to discipleship with the desire to unload responsibility for our spiritual direction onto another. Christ invites us to assume the yoke, but we would rather ride in the cart.’ (p 62)”
Some years ago former Mormon Kathleen Baldwin wrote about what she, as a Christian, missed about being a member of the Mormon Church. This element of Mormon life – that of having someone make decisions for her – figured prominently in her sense of loss. Because Kathleen’s reflections on transitioning from Mormonism to Christianity are filled with valuable insight, I offer them here.
What I Miss About Being a Mormon
by Kathleen Baldwin
This ministry exists to alert people to the spiritually damaging teachings of the LDS Church and hopefully steer them toward saving grace. However, I think it behooves us to take a moment to reflect on the reasons why a Mormon wants to stay Mormon. Sometimes we stand outside and scratch our heads wondering why they won’t listen, why they won’t awaken to the truth, why they don’t rebel against the strictures of their man-made religion? The Mormon Church is compelling. If it weren’t, it wouldn’t present much of a threat. Today I’m going to confess to you some of the things I sincerely miss about my life as an entrenched Mormon.
First and foremost, I miss the sense of belonging. No matter what city I moved to or what part of the country I visited, I knew I would have a branch or ward of the Mormon Church waiting to welcome me with open arms. Instant friends. Friendship is compelling.
Come Let Us Rejoice by Walter Rane
You might wonder what sort of friends they were, if they would be so instantly accepting? Good friends. Let me explain why. Mormons work very hard. The women, in particular, work extremely hard. When I told my sister that I was leaving the Mormon Church to become a Born-Again Christian, she smacked her hand angrily against the steering wheel and shouted at me, “I feel like you’re abandoning me! Leaving me to work all by myself.”
She was right. I abandoned the Mormon struggle to achieve perfection. I accepted grace and left the impossible work to Jesus Christ.
Common struggle is a powerful binding force. Mormon women labor together in Relief Society, Visiting Teaching, Primary, genealogy, Church Welfare Farms, Mutual, Sunday school. They commiserate with one another in their struggle to achieve perfection within their families and in themselves. They labor under this impossible load together. They lament their failures together. Weep together. Celebrate their triumphs together. These common battles bind them together. Look at the cohesiveness of other support groups: cancer patients, children of alcoholics, Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Mormons feel like they are fighting a war together, just like the soldiers in Band of Brothers. Pulling together in this overwhelming struggle creates a nearly unbreakable bond; one that is very hard to leave.
I also miss not having to think so hard. Don’t laugh. It’s true. Now that I am a Christian I must think about everything, discern right from wrong on an hourly basis. Whew! There is something to be said for being told exactly what to do. The Mormon Church dictated everything, from the length of my skirt to what I ought to eat and drink, whether my child could go to a slumber party, or date before age sixteen. Rules placate us. Rules take away the need for exercising thought, or discernment. Ah, but God, He wants us to think, expects us to consult with Him, mull it over, evaluate the situation, consider the individuals involved. It’s much easier to be told exactly what’s expected.
The LDS Church had a master plan for their members’ lives, everything planned to keep them busy, busy, busy, until the grave. It’s no accident that they chose the symbol of the beehive for the Utah state logo; industrious folks, Mormons. Boys go on missions at [eighteen], come back, go to school, marry, obtain productive and lucrative jobs, raise as many children as possible, convert friends, serve as leaders in local wards, work, work, work.
One thing that terrified me when leaving Mormonism might surprise you. Funerals. If someone in my family died, I worried, how I would know what to do? I’d done funerals the Mormon way all my life. I knew exactly how to proceed as a Mormon, but how did other people do it? In the Mormon Church, every ritual has a format that the members are accustomed to. Weddings, births, baptisms and funerals are all handled a certain way. There is comfort in knowing exactly how these big stressful life-passage moments will be conducted. As a Christian, I’ll be winging it.
Speaking of master plans, did you know every Mormon meeting format is the same in New York as it is in Arizona? Yep, everything is conducted uniformly. Even the Church buildings are laid out exactly the same. A ward building in California will have the same layout as a ward building in Maine. There’s comfort in familiarity. You know where the restrooms are without asking.
Elements such as these create confidence in the Mormon Church organization. This produces security. A Mormon has faith in the “Church” rather than in Jesus Christ. This is known as collective faith. The Mormon believes her church is leading her to heaven. She does not have to worry about her personal faith as much. As long as she has confidence that the LDS Church is guiding her correctly, all she has to do is obey. This reduces her need for developing a trusting relationship with God. Her primary trust is in the Church. It’s much easier to trust the tangible than the intangible.
As a Christian, I feel like the lonely pilgrim in The Pilgrim’s Progress. My journey is my own. Sure, I meet friends and have some companionship along the way, but it is largely a journey I make alone. And so it is for every Christian. My relationship with God is unique–individual–as is yours. It does not take the shape of a carefully outlined, step-by-step, pre-organized plan. God plans it. Our Father in Heaven has a unique relationship development plan for every believer, just as you have a unique plan for relationship with each of your children, your friends and family.
God is in control of our relationship. The Christian faces the choice of responding to God or not responding. This connection with God becomes a living breathing reality between Father and child. No longer is it a function of performing certain universal tasks to fulfill the requirements laid out by church leaders and thereby appease the Heavenly taskmaster.
Our life’s adventure does not consist of predictable certainties laid out for us by church leaders. It is a walk we take by faith. Predictability, fitting a mold, adhering to a list of rules–these things do not require much faith.
When I became a Christian, I traded earthly security to keep my eyes on Jesus. And, just like Peter when he tried to walk on water, this requires steadfast faith or I begin to sink. Real relationship ain’t pretty. Those who stay in the boat feel far more secure, and they have the luxury of smugness. They don’t get wet. Jesus doesn’t scold them, saying, “Oh ye of little faith.” No, they remain unchastised, snug and safe on the boat.
Mormons keep their eyes on an earthly man, a “prophet,” a flesh and blood guy they see twice a year at their General Conference. They rely on him to get the latest scoop from God. As a Mormon, I thought all I had to do was listen and obey, and then I’d be all right eternally. Now that’s security. Too bad, it isn’t real security.
Safety is compelling. If safety is of foremost importance to your Mormon friend, she will stay on the boat. She will sit tight and listen to the man she thinks is a prophet. She won’t get sloshed with grimy seawater trying to do something crazy like walk on water. Me, I’m willing to risk it. I’ve got the Son of God out there with me.
Yes, I miss many things about being Mormon, the comradeship of my struggling friends, the sense of security (albeit false), the comfort of sameness and familiar rituals. But there isn’t enough security or comfort in the world to make me re-strap that impossible burden on my back. No earthly friendship could compel me to give up the satisfying relationship I have with my Creator and Savior. Nothing in this world could make me go back to being a slave to the law now that I have been adopted by grace into the freedom of Christ’s family.
—
Kathleen’s article was originally published in A Word in Season, Winter 2004.
In the first module of the DVD set, Transitions: The Mormon migration from religion to relationship, my wife made the comment relative to this very issue that being a Christian was ‘ much freer.’ The true freedom in Christ we now experience can be, and is, quite unsettling at times. But it is freedom. The kind of freedom I never felt as a fully entrenched and active Mormon. I wasn’t able to discern that, however, until I had left Mormonism and stepped into a vibrant Christian community.
Tom….
Good to have you here!
Here’s the difference. Christ provides the structure for my life, not a religious group. Mormons have to be quite naturally centered on their church because it’s the system that promises to make them a god. After all, it is this system that runs the universe of gods and goddesses. So while Mormons talk in hushed reverential tones about “heavenly father”, this deity is just one of many.
It’s been often brought up here, why not just seek the chief deity of the system. According to Mormon lore, the gods are continually progressing towards more wisdom and knowledge. When a Mormon finally does make it to deity status, he’ll be just somewhere way down the ladder in the hierarchy of the gods.
It’s amazing that folks invest their whole mortal life in this futile attempt to become a god.
Yes, there is freedom in Christ. But I can see how not being in a formal legalistic and demanding system would be unsettling for some.
Actually a lot of Christian churches provide a pretty heavy duty structure. It’s a matter of degree as to the group someone finds themselves in. I have/had many family members who had their membership in a certain brand of Lutheranism. I remember sitting in a funeral service and the pastor giving the message that the dearly departed had gained heaven as a result of having gone through all of the ordinances of the church. At first I thought I hadn’t heard him right. Then he said it again. As I attended other funerals in the same denomination, the message was the same; do the system and get to heaven.
The Catholicism I grew-up in was highly structured and incredibly legalistic. The message was that you never knew your eternal destiny until you stood before God. The Catholic Church provided the structure by which a person could stay on course. There was an emphasis too on prayer and seeking God and veneration of the saints who helped you on your journey. But at the heart of things was the structure and role of the Church in the life of the member.
The apostle Paul addressed hero worship in First Corinthians. It seems the believers were dividing themselves up into groups depending on who their guy was. In his letter Paul admonishes the people and points out that he personally baptized few of them. There was an obvious reason for this.
“…13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so that no one would say you were baptized in my name.…”
With Mormons Joseph Smith has the keys to the dispensation. The current prophet is his successor. He’s probably one of those who has been through the ritual declaring that he has done enough. He’s a god. All he has to do now is die.
The problem with the requirements or works of the LDS curch and Catholic church is that most are all man made. There is nothing wrong with evaluating your life with the scriptures in order to determine if you are on the right path. That is what we are sopposed to do.
@Tom
I hope that by freer you dont mean because nothing is required except belief. That just isnt true. I honestly find the path that i am on harder now than before but much more rewarding. I think LDS and Catholic is more of an external keeping up an appearence of holiness, whereas worshiping the true God is still doing acts of righteousness but making sure our hearts are right in doing them as well. When we give to the poor it isnt just for points in the world to come but because we have been called to care for all of Gods creation. When we seek forgiveness or give foegiveness it must be sincere. Every act of kindness must be wuth right intent. We also have to turn away from the worship and traditions of man. We cannot live two lives of worship, just as scripture says we cannot serve two masters. So I find it more difgicult because every part of me is being weighed; my actions, my heart, my intent, my thoughts. The bar is raised not lowered.
Sorry for all the misspellings. im using my phone atm.
Another thing is that the acts of work or worship in lds is worth nothing because they are false. They cannot be found in scripture. God did not command them. Same with catholocism. We do not pray to a man or woman. We pray to God and only worship him.
I do think one of the appealing things about Mormonism is predictability and structure. As Ms. Baldwin affirms, structure is safe and comfortable. I also agree that Mormon leadership wants to keep its people busy. Its harder to disengage or question when you are not being pushed to do so many things. And she’s also right to point out that the comfort in such an environment is different from comfort in Christ.
cattyjane,
I always enjoy deconstructing your posts to determine exactly what you mean.
For example:
“……..evaluating your life with the scriptures in order to determine if you are on the right path. That is what we are supposed to do.”
“We also have to turn away from the worship and traditions of man.”
“…..every part of me is being weighed; my actions, my heart, my intent, my thoughts.”
Look, as long as you’ve have come to Christ in faith and been born again, you can approach your walk any way you want, I guess. But do you ever sort of just relax? This constant evaluation would not be my approach. Do you want to know why? Because I’m a constant failure. I sin in thought, word and deed. I did the constant evaluation when I was a Catholic and let me tell you, it’s a major drag. It leads to a lot of emotional stress as we mentally flagellate ourselves. But as long as you’re saved walk in a way that makes sense to you.
Now, as far as worshiping by the traditions of man. What in the world does that mean? Are we talking Sunday morning going to church service? I’ve been out on my bike on a Sunday morning zipping along praying while I ride. You know what I mean; praising God, thanking Him, talking about the wonderment of the beautiful world He’s made and allowed me to enjoy………
Catty, how did this post/letter affect you? Did it cause you to think about your comfort in rules?
You said, “I hope that by freer you dont mean because nothing is required except belief. That just isnt true. … So I find it more difgicult because every part of me is being weighed; my actions, my heart, my intent, my thoughts. The bar is raised not lowered.”
That is the complete opposite of what our Lord said in Matt 11:28: “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
And there is nothing else required but faith, as the Lord’s Apostle said in Rom 9:16: “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy,” and again in Eph 2:8-9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
The Lord does not just demand that we do good works, but that we do them perfectly, as in Matt 5:48: “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect,” and our good works according to the Lord in Isa 64:6: “all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment”
And as far as looking to “my actions, my heart my intent, my thoughts,” they are all selfish, and evil, and turned in on themselves, tainted with sin, and wholly unworthy. Good works from the new Adam born in us will necessarily flow from our faith, which is a gift, but good works are not necessary for salvation. We don’t look to our own works for the assurance of our salvation but to the work of the Lord who died on the Cross for our assurance.
Rom 4:1-5: “What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.’ Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”
You said, “Another thing is that the acts of work or worship in lds is worth nothing because they are false.”
No, their works are worth nothing because their faith is in a false Christ, which is worth nothing.
The LDS church was an early form of franchising. When people buy a franchise they are buying a system. Everything is laid out and all the owner has to do is work the system. People go to a “franchise” for the predictability of knowing that their experience won’t change regardless of where they are. A Big Mac is the same in Minneapolis as it is in San Francisco. Predictability brings stability, familiarity which results in comfort.
Notice that the article said that because the LDS buildings are the same, you don’t even have to ask where the bathroom is. It’s in the same place no matter where you are. The routines and rituals are the same and a person has an instant community with friends. The LDS church even started building more temples to get the membership involved in that program. The smaller, less spectacular temples became known as “McTemples”. It’s all apart of the LDS branding of its product which is a system, when worked, is suppose to result in exaltation.
For inactive LDS members, fading out of the picture is probably less on an issue than for those who are heavily involved in the program. It makes a difference also if a person is not in the middle of a Mormon dominated area.
Do I evaluate where I stand with God? No! Why not? Because I know where I stand with God. I’ve been born again by the Spirit of God through faith in His Son Jesus Christ.
Am I conscious of my behavior. Yes. My Catholic training is too deep into my psyche to ever not be aware of my behavior. I don’t feel compelled, however, to be obsessive about it any more.
Paul writes about the Fruit of the Spirit and the Deeds of the Flesh. Those of us who are in Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its sinful desires. I’ve often wondered what exactly Paul meant by that because obviously, my flesh has not been totally crucified. But I know as a practical matter, being overly concerned with sin isn’t going to cause me to sin any less. The only thing that’s really going to have an effect on my flesh is the Spirit of God.
As to rituals, if someone finds comfort in incense burning or whatever else they like to do, I don’t have a real problem with it. I’ve read some about early Church worship but I find it more descriptive than prescriptive. Paul actually addressed this in his first letter to the Corinthians.
“What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.” 1 Corinthians 14:26
“What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;…”
1 Corinthians 14:26-33 Religious exercises in public assemblies should have this view; Let all be done to edifying. As to the speaking in an unknown tongue, if another were present who could interpret, two miraculous gifts might be exercised at once, and thereby the church be edified, and the faith of the hearers confirmed at the same time. As to prophesying, two or three only should speak at one meeting, and this one after the other, not all at once. The man who is inspired by the Spirit of God will observe order and decency in delivering his revelations. God never teaches men to neglect their duties, or to act in any way unbecoming their age or station.” (Matthew Henry’s Commentary)
MJP
I will be honest. I did relate to this post. I do find comfort in community and knowing what is expected of me. My community is no longer lds but I do have a small community that i associate with. I think that God gave us instructions for a reason. How would i know what was expected of me without them? In a way I disagree with the statement that the lady made reagarding ‘her journey is her own’. I agree that we all learn in our own ways and God molds us with our experiences in order for us to fulfill the purpose He has placed us here for, but my journey is really not my own. I cannot pick and choose how i serve him or how dedicated i am to him. If He is my God and King than I must be willing to give everything if need be. My desires must be second to His. If they arent than I have to ask myself who im really serving. I wouldnt call it comfort in rules. I would call it comfort in instruction. Im glad we have a God who loves us enough to not just leave us hanging wodering what it is we must do in order to worship Him correctly. That would be cruel dont you think?
Catty, the only two things I would have caution upon in your post is that the instruction does not take the place of God himself, as I believe God wants all of us to rely on Him, not his instruction; and that you have a clear notion that Messiah, as you call him, is God in every sense that the Father himself is God.
We are made to live in God, not under instruction. While I understand what you are saying, and I actually understand the desire to live within a structured environment, God is what we need, not rules or instruction (which ultimately come in the form of rules). As I have said before, I have no problem with one who needs such structure, but I have also said such structure needs to be separated from what really matters.
Subtle here? Yes, but very important to distinguish.
We must define what we must do to worship Him correctly, though, even if I grant it would be cruel to leave us hanging. I define that worship much more broadly than you, I would wager. The good news is that we are not left hanging…
Falcon,
You make me laugh sometimes. Im so glad my posts provide you with entertainment. I cant go into a lot of detail because of the nature of this site, but there is definately scripture to back up that we are not to take on the ways of the heathen. There is nothing wrong with being obedient it kust matters that the God your being obedient to is the right God. I agree that focusing to much on law can be bad if it makes a person prideful and arrogant but sometimes just preaching grace and faith doesnt do anyone any good. LDS are correct in saying that what we do matters. They just need to search the scriptures and find what God says matters to him instead of listening to false prophet commentary.
Mormonism can be like a sense of security and good news only to a point. What happens when your kids dont want to go to church anymore because they find out the truth? All of the sudden your good news of the “Eternal Family” is shattered. This is what my mom is facing now. She does a ton of temple work, but I don’t think can even get to the “celestial kingdom” because my dad and us left the Church.
My good friend is Roman Catholic and she is very mature, but keeps running into roadblocks because of the legalisms in her faith. What do I have to do to get to heaven? The problem is when you bring legalism into the picture it becomes an end in and of itself.
@cattyjane – I think we have some very similar views on certain things 🙂
MJP,
I get it. I realize that without forgives my good works alone would not outweigh the places where i missed the mark. I understand that there is no temple to take an offering and I realize that only God alone can forgive sin. I know my good works wont grant me entrance but I know that if i desire mercy to be given I cannot bear his name falsely by transgressing his commands. Someone who is truely aware of how much they have been forgiven will love much and to love God is to keep his commands. If i dont than how can i say i believe anything?
Catty, but you don’t need to do anything to prove your beliefs. That’s the point.
If doing helps you stay focused, and they help you keep your eyes on God, have at it. The difference between what you are saying and what we are saying is in my first sentence of this post.
Now, I grant the entire works/faith debate is complicated and will not be resolved here, I fully think works are needed in Christ. We are not to sit idly by. James 1 tells us: “22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.” Then we see in Ch 2 of James, “10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it… 12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.”
What is the law that gives freedom? Is it the very detailed Mosaic law, or the law the Jesus fulfilled that we fulfill upon belief in Christ?
cattyjane,
I must really be a Christian slacker because I can’t think of anything I do; there’s a whole lot of things that I don’t do. So I’ve been pondering, what exactly I do in terms of “works”. I certainly don’t do any rituals.
I use to say my rosary, go to confession, holy communion, didn’t eat meat on Friday, went to Mass every Sunday and holy day of obligation. I even wore medals at times and a scapular. I use to get holy water from the large container in the back of the church and take it home and put it in this little holy water holder. When I’d walk by it, I’d take some holy water on my fingers and make the sign of the cross.
I walk by faith now and have done so for several decades. I like it a lot better. I’m not tied into any group, large or small. I do attend church service most Sundays, however.
You said you’re in a little group. What do you guys do?
Cattyjane,
Works dont save us, and we dont need to do works, we Get to do then.
So what happens to someone who leaves the LDS church. Well that person will have a lot more discretionary income, a whole lot more time on their hands and probably less friends. They will also lose, at least temporarily, being part of a community of like minded people with a common goal.
However they will gain an increased sense of independence which may or not be something they know what to do with.
As I’m sure is clear, I don’t have a group or guru telling me what to do. I don’t have group pressure to perform in a certain way. I am free to run my own program. Quiet frankly, I’m not a joiner of groups anyway.
The church whose Sunday service my wife and I attend is not heavy handed. I couldn’t tell you of any pressure they put on members or attenders. We can be as involved or not involved as we want to be. Now contrast that with what a member of the LDS church is required to do to maintain good standing within the sect. Imagine that person leaving. This is a very complex set of issues for such a person.
I’m glad that a Mormon ( Jana Riess) realizes that the Mormon system can cause LDS to cross
over the line when it comes to how they might view their leaders . I don’t know if “idolatry” is the right term describing this error , but clearly it is a very serious matter and one that people are more susceptible to in autocratic religions/ churches like Mormonism . Clearly Mormons have a unhealthy devotion reguarding their President / prophet . The , one man at the top of the organization , type of arrangement that Mormon leaders like Joseph Smith ended up creating and called Jesus’ church
makes it very easy for LDS to give their prophet to much allegiance , it is a man made creation and not what we find in the New Testament concerning the church organization Jesus established through His apostles , therefore a person can be much more susceptible to spiritual and emotional manipulation . Truly , Mormons give to much attention to Joseph Smith , and that suggests something is off kilter which then raises a red flag . Sadly , most Mormons simply are to busy trying to earn eternal life ( exaltation ) to see the danger that Mormonism has detoured them into accepting .
Mormons have been taught that the one man at the top of their church is their pilot , the mouthpiece of God on earth , and that he is also their king . The Mormon church is supposedly
the kingdom of God on earth and the president of the church is now the earthly king , he gets supervision from Jesus in heaven to relay trustworthy guidance to church members .
With this type of disjointed view of their president no wonder Mormons give their prophets , especially Joseph Smith , excessive emphasis in their testimony . Christians point this aberration out to the Mormon people and properly so . Hopefully Mormons will wake up and discover they have been cleverly detoured by the men who run their church . The truth about Jesus and His church/ gospel is found in the New Testament . Mormons can find the truth , God will help them .
There is a prescribed manner in which the members of the LDS church practice their faith. Never having been a Mormon but from the details I’ve picked-up, there are subtle and not so subtle means to ensure that there is conformity to group norms.
I have spent some time around the Amish and do know of how these folks conform to the dictates of their religion. If you leave this group, you are shunned; the community won’t have anything to do with you. It’s pretty tough on those who leave. It’s probably more so than those who leave the LDS church. The reason is that the Amish are mainly an agrarian society with none of our modern conveniences. So when a member leaves, he/she has to learn how to navigate through the “English” world.
Someone who leaves the LDS church naturally loses the close ties and conformity of that cultural religious system but they know how to function in the world at large. I don’t know what the current statistics are of those leaving the Amish but I would guess it’s pretty small numbers when compared to those leaving the LDS sect.
What has happened with the LDS group is that there has developed a rather large support group that assists those who have left. The cyber space/social media presence is quite large for these folks.
When I was deciding to leave the church some friends of mine insisted that I come to sacrament meeting with them. I went to Relief Society afterwards and they were talking about the role of the Good Shepherd. They were talking about how Jesus Christ was the good Shepard and had a picture of him stuck on the board in front of the class. Then the instructor said today we have a good Shepard who leads us in the same way and stuck a picture of President Monson over the top of Jesus Christ. Even at this early stage of me leaving the church I became sick when she did that. I was absolutely irate that they would even consider President Moson to be an equal or above Jesus Christ. This does not even line up with scripture. Ezekiel 34:22-24 This states that the LORD will be our Shepherd. The Messiah who God sends will shepherd us, not a man.
CattyJane,
Let me just say that I do see some progress in your approach and how you think critically about what people say to you, so kudos to you. I like how you said, “The Messiah who God sends will shepherd us, not a man.” Jesus was not a man, nor was he merely the Anointed who was higher than mankind but of a different being than God. The highest praise I can give any person is when they confess that Jesus is the same being as God the Father, not similar but lesser, but the same and equal. That’s the end game here, and I see you moving in that direction, but we will not be able to rejoice together until I am able to hear you confess that for yourself.
And the Falcon asked a very good question that I’m interested in as well, “You said you’re in a little group. What do you guys do?” What does this small group that you are involved with believe, teach, and confess? Do they read the same materials and believe the same about the Son and the Holy Spirit as you mentioned in the past?
Makeitshine,
Glad to hear that we share some common ground. The congregation that i associate with is in a nearby city so i can only attend a couple of times a month and for special days. Its too much of an expense otherwise. There is a small group of people who live in my who share similar beliefs so i am not completely without community where i live. When i first started seeking the truth i felt like i couldnt associate with anyone who didnt believe exactly like i did. I realize now that it doesnt have to be that way. I often help out some of the christian churches in my town if they are doing charity work or fund raisers. I dont attend their services but i think if its helping people in need than it shouldnt matter what beliefs we differ on. I think we are required to help out eachother regardless of our understanding of scripture.
MistTest,
The one that I attend out of town does not believe in the NT. The group in town does believe in the NT. Both groups observe Lev 23 and the Ten commandments. Both observe Sabbath from fri to sat. Both observe these things according to the descrption at chabad.org. This should give enough info without going into a lot of detail.
CattyJane,
“When i first started seeking the truth i felt like i couldnt associate with anyone who didnt believe exactly like i did. I realize now that it doesnt have to be that way.”
I can relate to that. When I left the baptist churches for the conservative reformation it was difficult. Some good friendships became very strained and some friends just went their own way. I felt burned in some ways and for a time didn’t really want to even talk to protestants at all. However, I quickly realized the error of my ways and am very comfortable working those who are still in my past beliefs, MRM being a prime example of that.
However, cattyjane, you and I differ completely on what brought us around. For me it was the realization that the overlap that exists from the core of the Gospel, being a correct understand of the nature of God then working out from from there, was far greater than the differences the further one moves out. You, on the other hand, say, “I often help out some of the christian churches in my town if they are doing charity work or fund raisers. … I think we are required to help out eachother regardless of our understanding of scripture.”
For me, I looked at the core beliefs of the Christians around me as fundamental and saw the works as superficial. For you, you looked at the the works of the Christians around you as fundamental and saw the core beliefs as superficial.
Take the Muslim Student Association on campus at your local college for example. Let’s say they go door to door and take out people’s trash, clean their yards, give financial assistance to nursing homes, and pass out pbnj sandwiches every weekend at the salvation army. From a distance all “good works” look exactly the same regardless the person or group. But, the thing is that the only good works that are pleasing to God are the works of those who have been born again in Christ, and the only way that a person can be born again is through correct belief of who the true Christ truly is.
The Lord does not look at the externals of a man first, thank God! Neither should we. Just the opposite. When the Lord says, “I never knew you,” who is He talking to, Christians or non-Christians? He says that to those who believe that they were Christians and called Jesus the Christ but never knew Him. The correct understanding of the Son of God is not a superficial issue, it’s absolutely essential for salvation, fellowship, and participation in Christ.
If the group that you are in denies that Jesus is equal to the Father in every way and the same being, then you really need to leave that for your own benefit. Then you can come back later and reason with them. Jesus is fully God, and there is absolutely no salvation apart from that confession of faith.
And I just read you second post, and you said, “Both [groups] observe these things according to the descrption at chabad.org.”
It is absolutely essential for anybody here following this conversation to go to chabad.org and read the content on that page and see that it is Antichristian material. This is the information that both small groups cattyjane is involved with are pulling from primarily.
For example, read this article on Jesus, http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/160992/jewish/Can-a-Jew-believe-in-Jesus.htm
MistTest,
The group in town does believe in NT. I was just saying as far as Sabbath observance and holy days they are the same. The one in my town is Messianic. Does that help?
MistTest
I really dont think it matters. I can prove what i believe in scripture. That is what matters. I dont understand why you insist on putting me in a box or slapping a religious label on my forehead. I wont attend a christian church because most of what they teach is out of context. I have no milicious intent on here. Im not trying to convert people to judaism or encourage them to attend a Synagogue. What is good for me may not work foe them. I just present information in hopes they will dig a bit deeper into the lies of their church and see how it doesnt line up with truth. I dont say anything on here that i dont back up with scripture. It shouldnt matter what congregation i affiliate with as long as i can defend what i say on here by scripture.
Catty, I hate to do this, but:
“I wont attend a christian church because most of what they teach is out of context. ” What is out of context and how do you know what you believe is not out of context? Have you read Romans yet?
“I just present information in hopes they will dig a bit deeper into the lies of their church and see how it doesnt line up with truth.” This still sounds like Joseph Smith talking.
” It shouldnt matter what congregation i affiliate with as long as i can defend what i say on here by scripture.” If you say you are a Christian, it matters greatly.
Open your heart to Jesus. He wants you. Do you want Him, or do you want your rules?
You said, ” I can prove what i believe in scripture. … I dont understand why you insist on putting me in a box … I wont attend a christian church.” Paul had you in mind when he said Titus 1:10-16; 2 Tim 3:6-9; 1 Tim 1:3-7.
@cattyjane – “I think we are required to help out each other regardless of our understanding of scripture.”
So right. We are going against Gods design for us if we dont. That’s what sin really is I think.
Since we are created in the image of God, understanding God as persons in communion helps us understand ourselves as human beings. We were meant to live in a communion of love with God but also other humans. The way we see ourselves as individuals is part of our fallen nature. What mormons have done is created their “gods” according to their own fallen perception.
Gal 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: Love your neighbor as yourself.
Cattyjane said
You know who you sound like when you say this CattyJane? You sound exactly like Joseph Smith. God told me all the Christians Creeds are an abomination in the sight of God. If you want to say this you need to seriously back this up. What does my church teach that is wrong? How does it not line up with the truth? If you say you have never heard my pastor speak or what my church teaches then how can you say this?
Cattyjane,
You can claim Judaism all you want, But if anyone knew it better than you or your “Friends” was Paul, and he claims it was wrong.
Everything in the O.T is in the N.T revealed. everything in the N.T is in the O.T is Concealed.
For those coming in late, this so far is what CattyJane has admitted with her own statements:
“The [small group] that I attend out of town does not believe in the NT. The group in town does believe in the NT. Both groups observe Lev 23 and the Ten commandments. Both observe Sabbath from fri to sat. Both observe these things according to the descrption at chabad.org. [a Jewish website that denies that Jesus is the Christ]”
“The group in town does believe in NT. I was just saying as far as Sabbath observance and holy days they are the same. [no fundamental differences between a group that has the NT and a group that does not]”
“I can prove what i believe in scripture. That is what matters. [and Christians would be on the wrong side of that] I dont understand why you insist on putting me in a box or slapping a religious label on my forehead [she defines who is a Christian]. I wont attend a christian church because most of what they teach is out of context. I have no milicious intent on here. Im not trying to convert people to judaism or encourage them to attend a Synagogue. What is good for me may not work foe them. I just present information in hopes they will dig a bit deeper into the lies of their church and see how it doesnt line up with truth. [she is in the truth, not Christians; this contradicts what she just said about “not trying to convert people”] I dont say anything on here that i dont back up with scripture. It shouldnt matter what congregation i affiliate with as long as i can defend what i say on here by scripture. [and the Christian understanding of scripture is wrong and out of context, not hers which is all that matters]”
You see…………………………….this is why we need a prophet who hears from God and then reveals the truth to us.
Now here’s what I find astounding, regarding Scripture. The apostle Paul tells us that everything he gained as a Jew pales in comparison to knowing Christ Jesus. In his letter to the Phillippians Paul writes:
“2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God[b] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law,[c] blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.”
Now I don’t know these people that cattyjane is hanging out with, but they would appear to me to be the false circumcision. This is especially true of that bunch that doesn’t believe in the NT. I wouldn’t spend a moment of my time with a group that rejects the NT.
Now as to the truth. I get a little concerned with folks who talk about “truth” who appear to me to be pre-set to be folded into a religious cult. I’d say out of the pan and into the fire. I think some adult supervision might be needed.
MistTest
Where did you gather that I was saying that about Christianity? I didn’t say that I wanted Christians to dig deeper into what they believe to see the lies. I was talking about the LDS church, that is what this is all about right? Im not saying things to make you guys mad. Have I ever told you guys that you have to observe the Sabbath or Passover or anything like that? No I have not. I don’t say things like that. I try to stick as closely to the doctrine that you guys believe on here. I don’t ever comment on something that I don’t agree with. You guys are the ones always dragging me out into the street demanding me to explain what I believe. I’ve answered that question a million times.
I’m not answering anyone’s questions anymore. I am nothing like Joseph Smith. It amazes me that Christianity is willing to accept so many lies; Christmas, Easter, Lent, working on the Sabbath, having Sabbath on the First day of the week and not the seventh and its completely ok as long as they feel ok about. Yet you cannot find any of those things in scripture, but I say I observe the Sabbath from Friday to Saturday night and I observe Passover and suddenly I’m condemned yet these things are in scripture, and I don’t push these ideas on anyone in here. What is wrong here? Why do you guys hate me so much?
Just so everyone knows, I did not divert this conversation. I was asked what the religious groups I attended participated in and I gave a very short explanation, because of this reason right here. I guess I should have been more specific or I should have continued to ignore the question.
You are also reading way into my words Mist Test. I never said I had the complete truth. No one has the complete truth. It is up to us to search the scriptures and see if what we are believing is the truth. I guarantee in the world to come you are going to be quite surprised at some things, and I’m sure that I will be to.
I think its wrong that I have to keep defending what I believe. I can understand if I am posting incorrect information, but I haven’t been. If I have been, no one has said anything. The only thing that has ever caused a back and forth argument about scripture on here is about the law being done away with. That’s it. Everything else I have ever said with regards to scripture has not caused a fight. Everyone has agreed. So what is everyone’s deal? If I said I was Seventh Day Adventist would that still be an issue or how about Church of God? Where does this problem with me actually lie? I’m guessing this is an Anti-Semitic thing. Its because it has to do with Judaism, Messianic and Hebrew Roots stuff. No Christian wants to hear that their Messiah was a Hebrew Jew right?
If you guys don’t want me here. Ban me. I don’t care. I’m tired of getting beat up when I haven’t done anything wrong.
Of course my comment is in moderation. Why does that not surprise me.
cattyjane
I’ve got one in moderation also so lighten up. Sounds like a persecution complex might by emerging. No conspiracy here.
Cattyjane,
we all have them end up in mod jail.
I think it’s great that cattyjane is looking at things from more than just one side. I like to look at all sides before I make decisions but it just makes things take longer. At least when you get there you know why! When I left mormonism I didn’t leave Jesus behind but didn’t know what route to take to know him. I didn’t want anything to do with the Catholic Church so I went to unitarian study then gnostic gospels but also bible. I even had all of Edgar cayces books (which I eventually burned). If you really are seeking truth and trust God to guide you, you’ll get there. When people get stuck in their own beliefs or just go with what fits their own ideas or whats easy that’s when they go wrong. Eventually every wrong route I took would burn themselves out and I had to face the church. I really had no idea what I was missing. Litterally every day I end up getting mind absolutely blown by thing I learn, stuff I used to think was just man made stuff, there’s no way once you understand it fully but not everyone really gets to the heart of it.
MakeItShine,
You’re right, but the only way she is going to uproot herself from this one is to uproot herself from these two small groups. The thing is, she is no longer “looking at things,” she has found and has stopped looking. I myself have been down the streams of religions stretching from a pseudo-Baha’i to you name it. I have held and taught Trinitarian heresies at a long point of my life. Thinking that I had become wiser than those around me I had become a fool blinded by the darkness I swore was light. Then I got the godsmack, but before that I would hardly have listened to anything anybody said to me thinking that they were nowhere near as enlightened as me. I’ve also been down this particular road that she’s going down now, it’s like watching history repeat itself all over again. All I can do is all I can do.
cattyjane , I like the statement you made : ” I’m glad we have a God who loves us enough to not just leave us hanging wondering what it is we must do in order to worship Him correctly.”
The good news is that God has’nt left us wondering how to correctly worship Him because He has told us how we do that very thing . The scriptures reveal that truth . You mentioned the love of God . Well ,
Jn 3:16 declares how much God loves mankind . Jesus declared God’s will , He said ” come unto me”,
it’s God’s arrangement that we come personally to Jesus , He is the Way to the Father . This great truth was something that people discovered when they found out who Jesus was .It was difficult for Jewish people to grasp the identity and the personal role Jesus wanted to play in their lives , but God has through Jesus made both Jews and Gentiles one body of believers who have Jesus as the center of their devotion / worship to God .
So to worship God correctly is to come to Him His way and His way is by a direct encounter with His Son . That commences a personal relationship with Jesus , complete forgiveness , peace with God , and reception of eternal life , are the result of such a personal encounter with Jesus , it is then that God become a Father and the Holy Spirit comes in to the heart . It’s being born again .
This is God’s arrangement for those who want salvation and to correctly worship Him , and they get to experience a intimate relationship with both the Father and the Son — 1Cor 1:9 as they
travel life’s road .
So catty , have you called on the name of Jesus ? Do you talk to Him ? If you do you’ll join others who realize it is right and a normal expression of love towards another person , like a close friend .
Those who understood God’s desire in the O.T. knew it to be a vital part of their worship , as did
those in the N.T. also — Psalms 99:6 , Acts 9:13-17 ; Rom 10:13.
There can be a big difference between knowing about Jesus , and knowing Him personally . Realizing this difference exists can go a long way in avoiding the error that some fell into 2000 years ago , and some today have as well — see Jn 5: 39-40 .
OK this is what bothers me.
People go searching, which is good. But then too many of them end-up in one of the various cults. Cults have answers and truth and very persuasive members/leaders.
It could be any where from the Branch Dividians, to Jonestown, to the Children of God etc. Take a look at how the Ruby Ridge fiasco came to be. The wife of Randy Weaver, Vicki Weaver, grew-up as part of what is today the Community of Christ. She started studying and looking for the truth and ended up absolutely convinced of her own confused manner of thinking.
I’m a little sensitive to this because I could very well have been engulfed in such a group. It’s my personality. Thankfully, God blessed me with a wife who when things could have gone hay-wire, had a way of sensing things I didn’t.
I really get concerned when people find a group that has the truth.
I am not in a cult. I don’t think my post is going to be released from Mod jail so I guess I need to try and respond. The group in my town is nothing more than a Messianic bible study once a week. The one out of town is an actual Synagogue. These are not cults. I don’t understand why everyone is acting like I have done something wrong.
@MistakenTestimony
Where did you gather that I was saying that about Christianity? I didn’t say that I wanted Christians to dig deeper into what they believe to see the lies. I was talking about LDS members.
@Everyone
I think its wrong that I have to keep defending what I believe. I can understand if I am posting incorrect information, but I haven’t been. If I have been, no one has said anything. The only thing that has ever caused a back and forth argument about scripture on here is about the law being done away with. That’s it. Everything else I have ever said with regards to scripture has not caused a fight. Everyone has agreed. So what is everyone’s deal? If I said I was SDA or a member of the Church of God maybe there wouldn’t be an issue.
cattyjane,
You’re just a little to nuanced and coy. There’s a reason all of us keep pushing you and challenging you to be more definitive.
I went out to the website of this Jewish group you referenced. I wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot pole.
God brought you here for a reason. There’s way too many red flags going up.
catty, please calm down . everyone here has a love and concern for you , we know you have come
a long way , we only are trying to keep steering you in the right direction . We can’t help but keep bringing Jesus into the conversation because He is the way to God . If you’re not ready to embrace great liberating truth then we need to keep that in mind , but please do not get so frustrated at some statements made on here that you let anger take over . That won’t help anything .
praying for you .
“The only thing that has ever caused a back and forth argument about scripture on here is about the law being done away with.”
Really? Was that really the first back and forth? See, how I remember it is several months back you denied the Trinity and I believe MJP and I were having that with you, then a week or so ago, the back and forth on the Trinity was rehashed. This post, however, did start with a back and forth on works, but the Trinity came to the fore yet again. So you just gloss over that and say the only back and forth has been over work of the law? Falcon is quite right when he says, “You’re just a little to nuanced and coy.”
And sadly you are in a cult, a theological cult that you swapped with Mormonism. By your own admission you can believe what you believe with or without the NT involved. You deny that Christ is coequal with the Father and of the exact same essence, that makes your small groups theological cults, as sad as that is to say, you have no participation in the true Christ.
But now Falcon is right when he says, “God brought you here for a reason. There’s way too many red flags going up.” So the challenge before us is how best to minister to you the true gospel of the true Christ, even though in your estimation we don’t really know what we”re talking about for you have said, “I wont attend a christian church because most of what they teach is out of context.”