In October (2014) Mormon blogger Jana Riess wrote about the “shadow side” of Mormonism: the “tendency to idolize – as in actually make idols of – the men who run our church. An idol is anything we use as a substitute for God,” Dr. Riess wrote, “and I feel that sometimes, we cross that line in Mormon culture.”
Citing the beloved Mormon hymn, “Praise to the Man,” that idolizes Joseph Smith as an intercessor for people in heaven, Dr. Riess admonished, “That is not okay.” Referencing Terryl and Fiona Givens’ book, The Crucible of Doubt, she explained that the Givenses
“beautifully get to the heart of one of the greater dangers of idolatry, that we will surrender our own agency and growth. We are so very eager to avoid making decisions ourselves: ‘too often, we confuse the call to discipleship with the desire to unload responsibility for our spiritual direction onto another. Christ invites us to assume the yoke, but we would rather ride in the cart.’ (p 62)”
Some years ago former Mormon Kathleen Baldwin wrote about what she, as a Christian, missed about being a member of the Mormon Church. This element of Mormon life – that of having someone make decisions for her – figured prominently in her sense of loss. Because Kathleen’s reflections on transitioning from Mormonism to Christianity are filled with valuable insight, I offer them here.
What I Miss About Being a Mormon
by Kathleen Baldwin
This ministry exists to alert people to the spiritually damaging teachings of the LDS Church and hopefully steer them toward saving grace. However, I think it behooves us to take a moment to reflect on the reasons why a Mormon wants to stay Mormon. Sometimes we stand outside and scratch our heads wondering why they won’t listen, why they won’t awaken to the truth, why they don’t rebel against the strictures of their man-made religion? The Mormon Church is compelling. If it weren’t, it wouldn’t present much of a threat. Today I’m going to confess to you some of the things I sincerely miss about my life as an entrenched Mormon.
First and foremost, I miss the sense of belonging. No matter what city I moved to or what part of the country I visited, I knew I would have a branch or ward of the Mormon Church waiting to welcome me with open arms. Instant friends. Friendship is compelling.
Come Let Us Rejoice by Walter Rane
You might wonder what sort of friends they were, if they would be so instantly accepting? Good friends. Let me explain why. Mormons work very hard. The women, in particular, work extremely hard. When I told my sister that I was leaving the Mormon Church to become a Born-Again Christian, she smacked her hand angrily against the steering wheel and shouted at me, “I feel like you’re abandoning me! Leaving me to work all by myself.”
She was right. I abandoned the Mormon struggle to achieve perfection. I accepted grace and left the impossible work to Jesus Christ.
Common struggle is a powerful binding force. Mormon women labor together in Relief Society, Visiting Teaching, Primary, genealogy, Church Welfare Farms, Mutual, Sunday school. They commiserate with one another in their struggle to achieve perfection within their families and in themselves. They labor under this impossible load together. They lament their failures together. Weep together. Celebrate their triumphs together. These common battles bind them together. Look at the cohesiveness of other support groups: cancer patients, children of alcoholics, Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Mormons feel like they are fighting a war together, just like the soldiers in Band of Brothers. Pulling together in this overwhelming struggle creates a nearly unbreakable bond; one that is very hard to leave.
I also miss not having to think so hard. Don’t laugh. It’s true. Now that I am a Christian I must think about everything, discern right from wrong on an hourly basis. Whew! There is something to be said for being told exactly what to do. The Mormon Church dictated everything, from the length of my skirt to what I ought to eat and drink, whether my child could go to a slumber party, or date before age sixteen. Rules placate us. Rules take away the need for exercising thought, or discernment. Ah, but God, He wants us to think, expects us to consult with Him, mull it over, evaluate the situation, consider the individuals involved. It’s much easier to be told exactly what’s expected.
The LDS Church had a master plan for their members’ lives, everything planned to keep them busy, busy, busy, until the grave. It’s no accident that they chose the symbol of the beehive for the Utah state logo; industrious folks, Mormons. Boys go on missions at [eighteen], come back, go to school, marry, obtain productive and lucrative jobs, raise as many children as possible, convert friends, serve as leaders in local wards, work, work, work.
One thing that terrified me when leaving Mormonism might surprise you. Funerals. If someone in my family died, I worried, how I would know what to do? I’d done funerals the Mormon way all my life. I knew exactly how to proceed as a Mormon, but how did other people do it? In the Mormon Church, every ritual has a format that the members are accustomed to. Weddings, births, baptisms and funerals are all handled a certain way. There is comfort in knowing exactly how these big stressful life-passage moments will be conducted. As a Christian, I’ll be winging it.
Speaking of master plans, did you know every Mormon meeting format is the same in New York as it is in Arizona? Yep, everything is conducted uniformly. Even the Church buildings are laid out exactly the same. A ward building in California will have the same layout as a ward building in Maine. There’s comfort in familiarity. You know where the restrooms are without asking.
Elements such as these create confidence in the Mormon Church organization. This produces security. A Mormon has faith in the “Church” rather than in Jesus Christ. This is known as collective faith. The Mormon believes her church is leading her to heaven. She does not have to worry about her personal faith as much. As long as she has confidence that the LDS Church is guiding her correctly, all she has to do is obey. This reduces her need for developing a trusting relationship with God. Her primary trust is in the Church. It’s much easier to trust the tangible than the intangible.
As a Christian, I feel like the lonely pilgrim in The Pilgrim’s Progress. My journey is my own. Sure, I meet friends and have some companionship along the way, but it is largely a journey I make alone. And so it is for every Christian. My relationship with God is unique–individual–as is yours. It does not take the shape of a carefully outlined, step-by-step, pre-organized plan. God plans it. Our Father in Heaven has a unique relationship development plan for every believer, just as you have a unique plan for relationship with each of your children, your friends and family.
God is in control of our relationship. The Christian faces the choice of responding to God or not responding. This connection with God becomes a living breathing reality between Father and child. No longer is it a function of performing certain universal tasks to fulfill the requirements laid out by church leaders and thereby appease the Heavenly taskmaster.
Our life’s adventure does not consist of predictable certainties laid out for us by church leaders. It is a walk we take by faith. Predictability, fitting a mold, adhering to a list of rules–these things do not require much faith.
When I became a Christian, I traded earthly security to keep my eyes on Jesus. And, just like Peter when he tried to walk on water, this requires steadfast faith or I begin to sink. Real relationship ain’t pretty. Those who stay in the boat feel far more secure, and they have the luxury of smugness. They don’t get wet. Jesus doesn’t scold them, saying, “Oh ye of little faith.” No, they remain unchastised, snug and safe on the boat.
Mormons keep their eyes on an earthly man, a “prophet,” a flesh and blood guy they see twice a year at their General Conference. They rely on him to get the latest scoop from God. As a Mormon, I thought all I had to do was listen and obey, and then I’d be all right eternally. Now that’s security. Too bad, it isn’t real security.
Safety is compelling. If safety is of foremost importance to your Mormon friend, she will stay on the boat. She will sit tight and listen to the man she thinks is a prophet. She won’t get sloshed with grimy seawater trying to do something crazy like walk on water. Me, I’m willing to risk it. I’ve got the Son of God out there with me.
Yes, I miss many things about being Mormon, the comradeship of my struggling friends, the sense of security (albeit false), the comfort of sameness and familiar rituals. But there isn’t enough security or comfort in the world to make me re-strap that impossible burden on my back. No earthly friendship could compel me to give up the satisfying relationship I have with my Creator and Savior. Nothing in this world could make me go back to being a slave to the law now that I have been adopted by grace into the freedom of Christ’s family.
—
Kathleen’s article was originally published in A Word in Season, Winter 2004.
Cayenne,
here is one of my problems with you.
you claim you wont go to a christian church since they are wrong and teach lies. Then you say you were talking about the LDS church. Well you never said you were talking about the LDS church, you said it was christian church’s. Then you said you back things up, yet you cannot really back up how churchs are wrong. You would need to go to every church to do that.
Then as an example of churches getting it wrong, you mention Christmas and Easter. I told you before I dont celebrate them nor does my church. So you ignored that, then not only mentioned them again, but now toss in lent. No one here ever mentioned lent, let alone following it.
I jokingly say to people, I give up lent every year for lent. I dont follow lent, neither does my church and they never have. Now for people who do follow lent, Christmas and easter, who cares, the bible does not teach they are not saved if they do. I feel Matthew 6:1 is what you and your group is doing.
Folks there’s a reason I have my little list of doctrinal imperatives.
Actually I didn’t develop it myself but got it from Dr. Walter Martin, prolific Christian apologist writer and speaker. I noticed when I read his “Kingdom of the Cults” way back when, that he’d examine a cult or movement based on certain (doctrinal) points. He always (also) went into the history of the group and the leadership. In-other-words, he had a standard by which to compare various religious movements, sects or leaders.
I’m not much of a band wagon hopper on-ner. I’ve learned. I’ve become quite skeptical. One of the things that I’ve learned is that the same stuff keeps reappearing and has done so during the history of the Christian religion. Again referring back to Walter Martin, he’d always say, “Question everything, even what I tell you.”
I read that a famous NFL football coach once said, “Football is a simple game, it’s blocking and tackling.” He was talking about the fact that people needed to be well grounded and skilled in the basics. The apostle Paul continually did battle, especially with those who wanted to go back to the Jewish Law and traditions. He would point out that those coming to Christ were under a new covenant bought in the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. He said that he was not ashamed of the cross of Christ, foolishness to some and a stumbling block for others.
Truth isn’t all that difficult to find. It’s in Christ Jesus we find it.
The liturgical church year is adiaphora. There is great benefit in following the church year because it enables one to reflect on the life and works of Christ and the beginning, present, and end of the church once the Lord returns. Last Lent my wife and I didn’t even observe it, and we have freedom in Christ to observe man-made holidays or not. Does a Christian have to observe Christmas and Easter? Absolutely not.
But what Scripture does teach us is that the Sabbath and Mosiac Law is no longer binding on the believer in Christ Jesus. Can a Christian follow the Mosaic Law? Sure, but a person will get absolutely no closer to God by that than by observing the liturgical church year. Yet you burden yourself and others with Laws and observances that are mandatory, which is a blasphemy of the Word of God and an insult to the work of Christ on the Cross. Will you now argue that the goyim are only to observe the noahide laws to inherit salvation but Jews are to obey the mosaic law, and that you are a Jew?
Cattyjane,
you claim to back things up with evidence, and you claim the N.T. is wrong. Please back it up, if you cannot, then how can you make that claim.
Also you claim to follow Passover, you mean you make unlevended bread, kill a lamb, bring it into your home to live before killing it, you really do all that? I follow passover the way Jesus said, bread and juice in remembrance of Him. Sabbath, Jesus did not command us to observe it, we can rest on any day we choose, Jesus and the apostles never said, you must rest on friday into Saturday. You mean if I dont, im not saved? Before the law was given, there was no mention of keeping a sabbath.
That is why folks, I have my little decision making matrix when it comes to evaluating a religious group or sect. With the group that cattyjane says doesn’t accept the NT……………man that’s a no-brainer. They are OML, off-my-list of acceptable orthodox Christian groups/sects.
It’s all the same stuff over and over again from the time of the primitive NT Church. The apostles did battle with the heretics over the person and work of Jesus Christ. That is, who is Jesus and what is the significance of His atoning sacrifice on the cross? That ties in with, “Who is God?” We’re talking basic fundamentals. It’s not that difficult to do a fact check on a group and see where they line-up. What does the group say about the Bible, the Virgin Birth, salvation by grace through faith, the final judgement and Christ’s second coming.
I really don’t see things like Christmas, Lent, Easter, Sabbath keeping etc. as that crucial to the basic fundamental of the Christian faith. Paul warns about these things. He says they appear to have wisdom but really don’t.
The subject of the article that we are posting about has to do with Mormon idolatry. There is the idolatry directed at the leadership of a sect but then there’s idolatry people have for their particular group’s traditions and practices. People fall in love with what it is that identifies their bunch as distinctive from some other bunch. It’s all empty clouds. No water.
Jude talks about this as well as those who are driven by every wind of deception. They are hidden reefs. Pick a group. Name-it-claim-it is a great example. They have certain techniques that they employ thinking that it is the exercise of their faith that will allow them power and the ability to control events in their lives. They fall in love with their faith and see it as a means to manipulate the universe.
It’s all about blocking and tackling; knowing the basics and employing them in a consistent manner.
I’ve talked often here about how I went about “cult” proofing my daughter. Young people, especially idealistic college age students, are vulnerable targets. They are away from home probably for the first time. They are on their own. They are at a point where they are questioning what their families, schools and religious groups have taught them. They are, like I said “targets”.
So my approach with my daughter was to drill over and over again, the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith. She may have not remembered the XY and Z of the Christian faith but she knew to be wary of the techniques used by those wishing to seduce their prey. She is in her late twenties now but she just related to me the other day how she almost got up and walked out of a lecture one time in college because the instructor took a shot at Christians.
But here’s the deal. She knew/knows she could always come and ask me if something didn’t ring true to her. She’s under the impression that I know everything. I wonder how long that will last?
This week she just happens to be traveling to an area that has a large amount of Mormon historical sites. I told her, “Oh man you have to go and take the tour of……….” She rolled her eyes with the “Really Dad!” expression. I had lunch with her yesterday and said, “All right, do you have your questions ready or do you need some?” More eye rolling. She just wants to go shopping at where ever the nearest mall is. That’s a whole other kind of cult!
@Falcon – haha you crack me up. Yeah, God is still battling with us in our idolatry huh, it’s just taken on different forms now right? money, celebrities, drugs, having nice clothes, even the tools some churches give us to help us walk with God can become idols.
@MT – I’m wanting to learn more about liturgical worship now, and holidays and stuff, but I think the general idea I got is that the Christian worldview is one of thanksgiving. So as God gives us creation and calls is good, we offer it back to him as thanksgiving. Is that why the Church Christened things that were maybe considered pagan? Since Satan always takes what God made good and tries to divert our attention and get us to worship the creation, or himself through created things, is that what the Church did was kind of take back what was really Gods from the beginning and offer it back to him?
@cattyjane – no worries, I figured you were talking about LDS “lies” even though it was hard to tell from the context, cause I did that myself a couple times on here, where I went back and realized I didn’t clarify enough. Are you studying the pre-nicean church yet? I know you said you didnt find the trinity in the Bible, maybe look at the early church and see how they understood God.
I think you guys might have her a bit wrong, possibly some of her struggles with Christianity and the Trinity were my own at one time, but I think it may have been how it was presented to me that was the problem. I wouldn’t say shes stopped looking, didnt she just recently see that Christ was the Messiah? Thats kind of a big deal? She said the one group she studies with does believe in the NT. Now she just needs time to sort out WHO Jesus is and how it all fits together. I have a list of quotes I put together when I was first researching the trinity and early church so I will post them below if that is any help. Hope I got it in order, was copying pasteing
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image”
John 1:18 18 – No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Ignatius of Antioch –
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.” Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.”
“there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word”
Aristides (123-4 or 129AD) Early Christian apologist.
And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man.
Theophilus of Antioch (180-192AD)-
“God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things.” (II, 10)
Melito of Sardis (wrote a lost Apology ca. 17017)-
“Born as a son, led forth as a lamb, sacrificed as a sheep, buried as a man, he rose from the dead as a God, for he was by nature God and man. He is all things: he judges, and so he is Law; he teaches, and so he is Wisdom; he saves, and so he is Grace; he begets, and so he is Father; he is begotten, and so he is Son; he suffers, and so he is Sacrifice; he is buried, and so he is man; he rises again, and so he is God. This is Jesus Christ, to whom belongs glory for all ages.
Irenaeus of Lyons (ca 170-190?20)-
“He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ: through His Word, who is His Son, through Him He is revealed and manifested to all to whom He is revealed; for those [only] know Him to whom the Son has revealed Him. But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning,…”
Against heresies-
“That John knew the one and the same Word of God, and that He was the only begotten, and that He became incarnate for our salvation, Jesus Christ our Lord, I have sufficiently proved from the word of John himself.”
There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible.
Proof of the Apostolic Preaching-
“5. In this way, then, there is declared one God, the Father, uncreated, invisible, maker of all things, above whom is no other God whatever, and after whom there is no other God.30 And God is rational, and therefore produced creatures by his Word, and God is a spirit, and so fashioned everything by His Spirit … so the Word is fitly and properly called the Son, but the Spirit the Wisdom of God…”(ch. 5)
but according to the Spirit, Son of God, pre-existent with the Father, born before all the building of the world and appearing to the whole world at the end of the age as man, the Word of God, resuming anew in Himself all things in heaven and on earth.”
@Rick B
You are the last person I would try and explain keeping Sabbath or any other feast to. You don’t even read my posts correctly. And im not going to go through each little pagan holiday and explain why we are not to keep them. That is not what the topic of this blog is about. But they are there in the old test. Its funny that you think you can do pagan practices and make up your own days. But you are set in your ways and I would be wasting my breath. But I don’t care what you do. Do what you want. Its you that keeps pushing me on what I believe. Im not trying to change you. I don’t have to answer for you before God. I only have to answer for myself. Do your own research if you want to know. Look up the Mystery Religion of Babylon and find out where all this comes from. If you aren’t going to than leave me alone and you keep your beliefs that you want.
Ezekiel 8:13-16 and Jeremiah 7:18-19 Pay attention. This is weeping for Tammuz and even the leaders had taken on this practice and were observing pagan traditions. God punished them for this. This is Easter and Lent
Jeremiah 10:1-5 Christmas tree
Deuteronomy 12:30-31 we do not take on the ways of the heathen. Doesn’t matter what titles or stuff you want to add to it.
MistakenTestimony
There was a time when I would have agreed with the Noahide laws. I did a lot of research on that and I don’t agree with it. I even talked to some Orthodox Rabbis about it and they just refer me to the Talmud. However, its very clear it is not in scripture nor does scripture teach that the other Nations are to have a separate law than Israel. Isaiah 56:3-7 is one of the best passages that proves this. You can see in verse 3 that the attempt at shutting out Gentiles was already happening because it says Isaiah 56:3 . Numbers 15:14-16 states that there is one law for the stranger and for Israel. Numbers 15:30-31 also states that Israel and the Gentile both will be cut off from among his people for violating the commandments of God. Exodus 12:48-49 states that if a Gentile is circumcised and offers the Passover lamb it is as if he was a native born of Israel. The verse in 49 states that there is one law for both Israel and the Gentile. There is no separation. If a person transgresses the commandments of God than they are cut off regardless of being a Gentile or one of Israel. If a person wants to bring an offering to the Lord than they must abide by the rules of how to do it. There is a way to come before the Lord and it is the same for all of the human race.
Cattyjane, do you even read what I write?
I told you I dont, notice the word dont? I dont follow the holidays. As to people who do, they dont follow the pagan holidays of old. Yes some non christians might, but were not taking about non believers. As to believers, I’ve never met one in my life who follows the holidays today, but does it like they were done in Babylon.
Then your the one that claims the N.T. is wrong, all the churchs are wrong, you claim you provide evidence, then dont provide it and get mad when we ask for it. Joseph Smith did the same thing, and you wonder why I compare you to him.
My goodness, my goodness. The same old arguments. Jeremiah 10 is about Christmas Trees? Really? Vv 1-5:
Hear the word that the Lord speaks to you, O house of Israel. Thus says the Lord: “Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move. They [Their idols] are like scarecrows in a cucumber field, and they cannot speak; they have to be carried, for they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good.”
So are idols or Christmas trees “like scarecrows”? “They cannot speak,” would that be said about idols or Christmas trees? “For they cannot walk,” would that be said about idols or Christmas trees? “Do not be afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good,” when was the last time a Christmas tree scared you? Is God really concerned with decorating a tree here, or with idolatry? Let me ask you, how elaborate was the Temple of Solomon? Was it bare white walls, or was it decked with adornment and images throughout? Is God truly concerned with decorations or with idolatry?
Isaiah 40:20; 45:20. The rest of your arguments are about as solid as this one.
Well I have one in jail bit I do hope this conversation continues! I so want to learn this stuff.
(Rubbing hands together and grinning)
“However, its very clear it is not in scripture nor does scripture teach that the other Nations are to have a separate law than Israel. Isaiah 56:3-7 is one of the best passages that proves this.”
Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely separate me from his people”; and let not the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.” For thus says the Lord: “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. “And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant—these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”
This is where your knowledge of the NT should have come into play. Hebrews 3:7-4:11
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.’ As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest.’” Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.” Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter [the seventh day rest] because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Those who are in Christ are, as Isaiah said, “everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it,” for we have entered the Sabbath rest of the Lord “today” “by faith” and are able to “rest from [our] works.”
And this passage of Isaiah looked forward to the days of Christ, when “the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord … these I will bring to my holy mountain.”
Eph 2:11-16: Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Gal 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:14: so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Gal 5:6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
But what do I know, Christians take most things out of context anyway.
What did Jesus say about the Sabbath? How does that relate to our understanding of the law and even how we relate to God?
I see the comments directed toward Cattyjane, which are certainly pointed. I have offered my own, which put me in mod jail, too. However, while I can only, with certainty speak for myself, I think there is little to no disdain for her. I believe she is appreciated and adds a needed view here. The passion comes from a desire for truth, and it seems she has not come to fully accept Jesus Christ as her lord and savior, preferring the solid, definable laws of the Torah.
I am not clear exactly what she believes, though I see definite movement away from Mormonism and towards knowledge and understanding of the traditional Judeo/Christian belief system. It must be quite a journey from Mormonism to Christianity, and I am sensitive to that. However, I won’t accept being told my church follows lies, which, as Rick pointed out, is what catty said, intended or not.
God has you, catty, as I address you directly. I pray that you see that and trust that.
I feel for cattyjane. I know what it is like to be fooled by the LDS church and the anger and disbelief that follow that. I have read testimonies of other LDS who have left. What does one do after this? Where does one turn after their world has been shattered?
From my research I have found that some go back and start from the beginning….the very beginning in their eyes. Back to no God. Just different cultures who created mythical beings that are nothing more than superstitions to those living today.
Some go back to the beginning of the OT (which is where I believe cattyjane is) Stuck in the rules and regulations that those Jews lived and believed. People who believe their Messiah hasn’t come. Then there are those like me who go back to the beginning of the NT. Who will only believe the words of Jesus himself. Men lie. I painfully experienced that. Only Jesus’ words would I listen to. It’s different for us all.
I am going through my own crisis of faith right now. We’ve had a very painful death in our family with a lot of suffering this family member went through. I questioned whether there really is a God who could allow such pain and suffering. It’s been a crazy month and I just want to thank the Christians here for continuing to show the true and living God through scripture because your words help. I’ve been reading here but not posting much lately. It’s difficult but I’m back into the NT trying to make sense of what seems senseless to me.
Cattyjane,
I have a sincere question to ask you. Are you putting as much study into the NT as you are the OT? I have studied both. I will admit that I have studied more in the NT because I believe Jesus is the Messiah. I have also studied some in Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Wiccan and even Scientology. Just because I want to try and understand what others believe and why they believe it. Please continue to post here, I enjoy reading your posts 🙂
Well whatever. Im not keeping this going. You guys do what you want. I wasn’t trying to pull anyone who is in a Christian church out of their church. I should not have even answered the question about what the groups I attend believe. I will know better in the future, if I ever post on here again, not to answer your questions about what I believe.
Im not saying that Christianity is a complete lie. They do have truth but they also lack understanding in a lot of areas, but this is with any religion. I don’t like the replacement theology that most Christian churches have because it isn’t true. I also don’t like that they observe Christmas and Easter and claim that some how it is related to the Messiah. That is a lie just as much as baptism for the dead is a lie. I don’t mind if they teach the birth of Messiah as being a fulfilled prophesy or teaching that his resurrection is proof of him being Messiah, but keep the lies out of it. If you are honest with yourself you will admit that these are lies. I don’t want to be taught a mix of lies with truth and I don’t want to be taught that how we worship God is completely up to our own discretion because that is not true either. I don’t believe that my works earn my way to heaven, but I think my lack of works would say that I am not a child of the Lord. You guys keep your Christmas and keep your Easter if you want, but don’t tell me that I cannot observe the Sabbath or Passover out of love and respect for my Fathers commandments. I have family who observe Christmas and Easter and I leave them alone. I don’t celebrate with them and I don’t preach to them to stop. I only discuss these things if they bring it up and ask why I don’t. I will more than likely stop attending the congregation out of town because there will come a time when I will have to make a choice. I do have a christian church here in my town that I have considered being more a part of. I have participated in a few things with them and they are very mission and charity based. I may not agree with everything they believe in but the fundamentals are the same.
MakeItShine,
You said, “So as God gives us creation and calls is good, we offer it back to him as thanksgiving. Is that why the Church Christened things that were maybe considered pagan?”
It’s all about the posture of the mind and the affection of the heart. The religious symbol of Scientology is the cross, just like Christianity. However, they have a whacked-out explanation of what the vertical bar means, the horizontal bar means, etc. Same symbol used by both religions, but how do they view them? What is the posture of their mind and the affection of their heart?
You said, “I think you guys might have her a bit wrong, … didnt she just recently see that Christ was the Messiah?”
Yes, but the problem is that she will no longer continue to grow to a full knowledge of who Christ truly is so long as she associates with these two small groups. She needs to understand by reasoning from the Scriptures that what her friends are teaching is wrong. If she doesn’t begin to doubt how will she ever leave?
You said, “possibly some of her struggles with Christianity and the Trinity were my own at one time, but I think it may have been how it was presented to me that was the problem.”
It was my own struggle at one time, too. If I didn’t care about cattyjane I would simply keep my mouth closed. Am I being rude to her? Is it my tone? Perhaps, I could probably end every criticism with an encouragement, this is true. I will try to do better. But without being blunt with her it’s going to be very difficult for her to call the theology of her friends into question, I look to my own past to know that to be the case.
And kudos to you for reading the ancient church fathers, very good stuff.
Kate,
I just read your post and I will burn my last one for the day if this is it.
I, too, at one point, a long point, would only read the four Gospels and Revelation. I only trusted the words of Jesus and had complete distrust in the words of the Apostles. And I have gone down the Judaism road, too. I can relate, I really can. It took a long time to be where I am now, I was confused for so long. All I can do is encourage you to dig deeper into the teachings of the Lord’s Apostles. Trust them the same way you trust in the Lord, he appointed them with you in mind, and me, and everyone who reads them faithfully. I apologize for my tone if it’s harsh to anybody. I will try better to be warning and encouraging at the same time, sounds impossible but I’ll try.
OK MT……………………………you do not get to have the rude, sarcastic label applied to you. rick and I are the owners of that! We’ll give you passionate and enthusiastic. How’s that? Actually if you met me you would see that I’m quite tame. rick on the other hand……………………
Now folks, here’s something that I think will be helpful. What is the difference between “Biblical theology” and “systematic theology”?
“Biblical theology and systematic theology are two different manners of arranging the teaching of the scriptures. Biblical theology seeks to understand the progressive unfolding of God’s special revelation throughout history, whereas systematic theology seeks to present the entire scriptural teaching on certain specific truths, or doctrines, one at a time.
Biblical theology is thus historical and chronological in its design; and in fact, a close synonym for biblical theology, at least in its wide-angle task of accounting for all of special revelation, is the term “redemptive history”.
Biblical theology is not always pursued in so broad a fashion, however; sometimes, certain themes are approached in a biblical theological manner; for instance, a biblical theology of holy space in worship would seek to understand how that specific motif unfolded in redemptive history, from the beginning of revelation until the end. Another narrower application of biblical theology would be the study of the unfolding of revelation during a specific time period (for example, post-exilic biblical theology); or the study of the development of themes in a particular author (for example, Johannine biblical theology); but ultimately, even these narrower applications are truly biblical-theological in nature only as they seek to advance an understanding of the progression of redemptive history as a whole.”
“Systematic theology, on the other hand, is laid out, not chronologically, nor with a consideration of the progressive development of doctrines, but thematically, taking into account from the outset the complete form which revelation as a whole has finally assumed. Systematic theology attempts to answer the question, “what is the full extent of the truth that we may know about the doctrine of sin, or salvation, or the Holy Spirit, etc.?”. Hence, systematic theologies progress from the doctrine of the Godhead, or theology proper, to christology, pneumatology, angelology, soteriology, and so on, treating each theme exhaustively.”
Cattyjane you said to me
You either Lie or are ignorant, I told you more than once, I dont follow any of the holidays, and yet you seem to believe and insist I do. Why is that? Also why do you get mad at me? Your the one that claimed all the christian churches are wrong, you claim I keep holidays that I said I dont, then you start giving me verses from the OT that you feel apply to these pagan Holidays you claim I keep that I said I dont, over and over, then you get mad at me. I think your under conviction that maybe your wrong and you taking it out on me.
Then you claim you keep the Sabbath and passover, I ask you if you really follow Passover by bringing a lamb into your home, then killing it, putting the blood on the door Etc. If you do, then great, But Jesus gave a much easier and better way. Then you claim we must keep the sabbath, do you understand as I said before, It’s all or nothing, you cannot claim people must follow the sabbath, and if they do then great, but if they dont, then they avoid getting punished since you wont do as God commanded and therefore you follow mans laws and wont stone the person. Why do you not keep it all, why only part of it.
Now instead of answering these honest questions, you get mad at me, tell me I’m clueless and avoid answering me, and you wonder why we question you on these things. Then you claim you and your friends dont trust the N.T. Yet you dont give evidence as to why it is wrong. You reject Jesus, but as Jesus said, The O.T. speaks of Him. It was Jesus who claimed to be God, It was Jesus who claimed to be the voice speaking from the Burning bush. Despite what you think, Me and my wife as well as others here do care about you. Dont forget, I spent much time writing you via private email as you were thinking of leaving Mormonism, then after you left we wrote. Dont act like I dont care, If I did not I would not bother with you.
So you may ask yourself, “So what falcon?”
Well I’ll tell you “so what?”. I’m reading here and enjoying it but I’m thinking, “Where are these folks getting their information and how are they coming to the conclusions they are coming to?”
Now what’s good is that we read posters saying basically, “I use to believe XYZ but then …………..” It shows growth and I think a teachable spirit.
I think I’m probably a fan of “systematic theology”. That’s why I’m always pushing folks on the “Who is Jesus?” or “Who is God?” topics. When we are dealing with Mormons, for example, the study of “grace” is a waste of time, I think. I know it’s important for them to know how their ideas about grace and the orthodox Christian view of grace differ. But here’s the deal. They are lost not because they don’t know about “grace”. They are lost because they don’t know who God is. I will admit that the study of the Trinity would probably leave them staring out into space, but there’s a way to get there. I remember just before I got saved I decided to read the Book of Revelation. I didn’t have a clue. It wasn’t a good place to start. I gave up on that.
With me it was coming to the point in my life where I knew I was lost, separated from God because of my sin. I came to see that I needed a Savior and it turns out it is Jesus. So I can start with Jesus and our need to receive Him by faith to secure eternal life.
The Trinity was never a real issue for me because I grew up studying my Baltimore Catechism. The Trinity was apart of the Christian landscape. I don’t get all that wound up about it even today. I’m comfortable with One God and three persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
I guess I received that through revelation. Having claimed that, no one can argue with me. 🙂
@Kate
I am so sorry for the loss of your loved one. May God give you and your family comfort that only he can give. I can sympathize with what you are feeling right now. Last week my family lost three grandparents all in the same week. We had another grandmother in the hospital and by Gods grace she is getting well. Death is difficult to understand and when the person has to endure pain or if the person is very young it can be even more difficult to understand. I believe that God provides comfort and understanding for each person individually so I don’t expect that the way I have found comfort will be the same for you as it is for me. I hope it is ok that I offer these words to you.
Sometimes we cannot understand Gods management of the universe but through hardships we are often given a glimpse of His wisdom. In retrospect the events that caused us so much pain and heart ache begin to take on meaning and we realize that they had a purpose. Gods wisdom is greater than our wisdom Psalm 18:30-31 Deuteronomy 32:4 . Difficult times can provide an opportunity for others to express noble acts of self-sacrifice and devotion. I believe that we are all given a certain number of days to fulfill our purpose on this earth. The one piece of comfort that I have is in knowing that although my flesh may go back into the earth from where God molded it, my spirit will return to Him from where he breathed it Psalm 23:4. Our spirit is eternal. If the person had faith in the Messiah we have comfort in knowing that we will see them again in the new Jerusalem John 10:27-29 Romans 14:8. All of our questions will be answered because we will be taught by God who is the perfect Shepherd. I am praying for you and for your family that God will bring peace into your spirits and comfort you during this time. Blessings to your family.
As to the question you asked me I have only just started lining up the NT with the OT a few weeks ago. I have learned alot about the NT during the last two years but I was not serious about it because I didn’t have a testimony of it. Now that I have a stronger belief in it I have started studying it with more sincerity.
Falcon said
Falcon, did you forget how to spell Teddy Bear?
It should read, Actually if you met me you would see that I’m quite tame. rick on the other hand……………………Is a huge teddy Bear.
Catty,
I hope you see now you do not need a testimony of it to learn and grow in it.
Kate,
Glad to see you around. I am sorry for the events in your family, and will pray for healing.
Something for everyone to think about that deny Jesus as Lord and Deny He is God.
Are you aware that many people over the last 100 years have set out to prove the N.T is false, People from Lawyers, Atheists, Movie actors/directors, Etc have set out to prove the N.T is wrong and prove Jesus is not who He claimed to be. But after much study and work they have come to believe from the overwhelming evidence That Jesus is God and claimed to be all that He said He was.
So just think about that and you can find these people and their books online.
Kate, sorry to hear of the loss in your family . My wife and I will be praying for you to get through this difficult time . I just lost my sister . Keep your eyes on Jesus , we can lean on His arm , He is strong .
We love you .
Mistaken Testimony mentioned about Catty’s use of Jer 10 to be a Christmas tree ?
Wow, that’s an old canard .
I can appreciate a person’s desire to be “clean” before God in order to be blessed by Him type of thinking , but that can be trap — it can totally consume one’s life and lead to spiritual / emotional struggles . It kind of reminds me of the people on the reality show ” Cheap Skates ” , and the level to which some people will go in order to emotionally satisfy their penny pinching behavior . Now penny pinching is fine but for some people it morphs into ….
The New Testament ( and a little common sense ) contains the answer for those who are being
influenced by teachings that will eventually rob them of their peace and joy in following Jesus .
Using Jer 10:1-5 to refer to a Christmas tree is one example .
Don’t want to celebrate all or some of the things common today at Christmas time ? Great . But do not use Jer 10:1-5 as the reason for your decision because that is misusing that scripture .
catty, praying for you to meet Jesus soon . I know you will .
take care .
@ MikeR “The New Testament ( and a little common sense ) contains the answer for those who are being influenced by teachings that will eventually rob them of their peace and joy in following Jesus.”
– This is so true for me, I’m always getting sucked into stuff like this. Oh no, its a Hexagram, that must be satanic! Ultimately these things are Gods designs and belong to him, people just choose to use them in the wrong ways or connect them to demon worship just like in the OT and usually that led to some really immoral things. (I do agree with not keeping certain things around when they have been associated with these people though)
God gave us a beautiful world to enjoy and talents to create artwork and food and dance, even decorating a tree (just dont give them a name and bake cookies and offer sacrifices to them). Everything we do should be to glorify him.
I do agree with MistT though on cattyjane separating from the group if she wants to get more into NT study- it might be like blind leading the blind.
I found that when I was mormon was that when I read the Bible I was always trying to fit the pieces together and they never quite fit, I would have to look up what the church had to say about this verse or that one. Individually you could make them make sense but not as a whole. Maybe some Christians even present teachings wrong, and that can cause confusion. We probably all have different opinions on who the best NT teachers are, I bounced around a little bit there at first. After a lot of study and the proper understanding of Christ I see how it all fits together like a beautiful tapestry, to me that’s enough evidence to know that the NT is inspired by God and that the early church knew how to separate the inspired writings from the others because of their tradition and the faith that was handed down to them (finally back to tradition!). Funny mormons read the Bible but reject everything the early church taught before it was even put together.
@Kate – Sorry for you loss! praying for you.
Thanks for the prayers everyone. I’m not sure why I shared that but I just wanted you all to know that reading here has helped me the past few weeks.
MT,
I’m far from just trusting the words of Jesus now. I started questioning Mormonism 7 years ago and had my name and records removed 4 years ago ( or was it 5?) anyway, I am getting deep into the NT again.
I don’t think you are being harsh at all. I’ve been posting here about 4-5 years and I’ve gotten pretty in your face as well. Just ask my LDS friend TJT 🙂 Sometimes it takes harsher comments to get through to some and sometimes nothing works. Their minds are seared.
I also know what cattyjane went through coming out of Mormonism. I remember her posting here as LDS. I see both sides. No worries.
Cattyjane,
I’m sorry for your losses. I no longer have any of my grandparents. It’s hard. I’m beginning to think this getting older is for the birds! We have been very lucky and haven’t experienced much death in our family. I lost my Mother. I’m an only girl, I have 4 brothers. It’s difficult. Thank you for the scriptures. I’m in a better place than I was a few weeks ago. I’ll get there!
I’m happy to see that you are getting into the NT. Keep going with that. When I first started studying it, when I was questioning Mormonism, I was so shocked! It was like I was reading it for the first time and nothing lined up with Mormonism. I truly believe that Jesus came and gave us a NT and that is what we should live by. We shouldn’t mix the Old in with the New. This is what JS did and it created a lot of false doctrines.
Mike,
I’m sorry for your loss as well.
Kate, Mike R, and Cattyjane — May our great and tender Lord wrap His arms around each of you and give you His unmatchable peace. Please know that your friends here care about you. We are privileged to pray for you, and walk beside you during good times and bad. May God’s grace and love carry you through.
Kate,
Interesting what you said about grandparents. My wife and I were talking about how drastically things have changed in our lives regarding who’s around for the holidays now. It’s pretty slim. All of the parents and grandparents are gone from the scene. Our daughter won’t be around for Thanksgiving as she will be visiting her boyfriend’s family. You wouldn’t believe where she will be. So we are down to just my wife and myself and two of her sisters. But for what it’s worth, we do have four dogs; two inside and two outside.
cattyjane,
Now that’s an interesting concept; “a testimony of the NT”. I suppose that’s hold-over lingo from your Mormon days. How in the world does someone get a testimony of the NT? Does that mean you are considering if it’s the Word of God or not? Let me suggest that if you have a “testimony” of Jesus being the Son of God, the promised Messiah, then I would think that accepting the NT as scripture would be a natural event.
I get all excited as I read the NT. I wouldn’t count my emotional reaction as a testimony because I’d accept it as the Word of God whether it affected me emotionally or not.
Now to growing in knowledge and wisdom, consider this.
Acts 19:1-7 New International Version (NIV)
Paul in Ephesus
19 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Now what in the world was this all about? A bunch of people received “John’s baptism”?
Acts 18:24-28New King James Version (NKJV)
Ministry of Apollos
24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; 28 for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.
Didn’t mean to turn this into a Bible study. But this guy Apollos was preaching what he knew and it’s a good guess that he had an influence on those “believers” Paul came across. Apollos had some knowledge but not complete knowledge. He preached what he knew. Can you imagine what a total upper it was for him when he learned the complete gospel message of Jesus Christ.
Hence I pray for those who come here and read and have some knowledge but might not have a total understanding of who Jesus is and what He has done for us.
makeitshine, glad to know that you are navigating the various challenges a Christian can face today ,
there never seems to be an end to what is considered ” pagan” or ” demonized ” and thus forbidden
for believers in Jesus to do or allow these days . Taking some quality time in the N.T. , praying or pondering what we read , asking questions of those in the Lord who we respect , and yes using some common sense , will be the way to decide what we should do . If you find that worry and stress are dominating your mind and thus robing you of the joy and peace that worshiping Jesus brings to the
heart then realize something is not right so take a step back and regroup and get your focus back —
on the Lord Jn 16:33 . You’ll make it .
Incedently , my wife once belonged to a false prophet led organization with the same type to authoritative control over the lives of members that Mormons deceived by . She was told it is against God’s law to have a blood transfusion because that would be eating blood and Gen 9:4 says that is forbidden ; she also was told never to salute the U.S. flag , that type of behavior is forbidden because of Dan . Ch . 3 ; no birthdays are allowed to be celebrated because that’s pagan — Gen 40: 20-22 is
appealed to to prove that . It goes on and on . All this teachings were bolstered by a constant reminder that you would incur Jehovah’s wrath if you did them . Fear dominated her life because in working hard to gain God’s approval for salvation she and her friends had to be ” clean” from pagan
beliefs etc . The O.T. was used to keep people in line and is the first place they turn to show proof of their doctrines .
catty, I missed your mention of losing your Grandparents . I send my condolences . I ‘m sure you have some very good memories of them . I pray God will help you through the loss .
Thank you everyone for the condolences.
I don’t know what else to say to convince you guys. I have already told you many times that I believe that Jesus is the Messiah spoken of in the OT. I’ve already said that I am reading the NT. Would you all feel better if I enrolled in some christian college or became a nun? Neither of those things will happen so you can forget about that. I don’t think you guys should be so quick to judge Messianic and Hebrew Roots movements. I agree that there are some groups under these names that do come across as extremely legalistic. I have encountered those and they can be very arrogant and pompous in their attitudes. I don’t associate with ones like that. The group in my town is not like that. They are very humble and very loving. Some of them still attend a regular Christian church on Sunday. They just attend this group to gain a Hebraic understanding of the scriptures. I think you guys have gone way off the deep end on judging the groups that I associate with and where I am at with my understanding of things.
cattyjane,
We can only judge based on what you have told us. It’s the impression that we’re all getting. It’s not like only one of us is concluding certain things.
Here’s the other thing. I recognize that we here on MC are a community of believers. We guard the gospel and the Body like Watchmen in the tower on the wall. So also we look out for the other members of the Body. I don’t want to sound like Old Man River here but we look to safe guard believers, instruct when appropriate (hopefully with some humility) and seek counsel when needed.
Your being here for as long as you have through various transitions makes you part of the group.
I try not to come across like “been there, done that, got the tee shirt” because there’s always more to learn and more to experience. But if I can save people some time and pain I’d like to do that. However I also recognize that the best teacher often times is experience which has to be personal.
I’ve got some shocking news for you. If you are aligning yourself with the Hebrew Roots movement then you have gone way off the deep end and insult the work of the true Christ on the Cross.
If you believe that Jesus is the Messiah but deny that he is equal to God and the same being then you have gone way off the deep end and are in a theological cult.
And if you think that we are just going to forget and ignore everything you said so far then you are crazy. You are reading blatantly Antichristian material with a small group. Acceptance of the NT is a peripheral issue. A true understanding of Christ is simply a superficial difference. You say that all that matters is the fact that you can defend yourself from scripture. You say that Christians take most things in the Bible out of context. You have returned to observing Sabbaths and the Law of Moses. You are so far off the deep end I can’t even see you any more.
You use the same tactics as Mormons by wanting so bad to be accepted by Christians so that you introduce your false gospel and false Christ. You have not changed, you have only swapped cults. Paul had you in mind when he said Titus 1:10-16; 2 Tim 3:6-9; 1 Tim 1:3-7.
Sharon, thank you very much for your kind words .
Cattyjane , when you use ” you guys ” in the blanket way you do then I know that you are emotionally
elevated at the moment . That being the case you may not be able to understand the concern we have for you . I have said that I am glad of the progress you’ve made , and I rejoice that you will read the
New Testament , I think that anyone here could not ask more of you considering where you have
come from . I also rejoice that you believe that Jesus is the Messiah ! I would simply encourage you to think about that great truth and then tell Him personally that you believe He is the Messiah . That’s my prayer for you here on out .
I will say that I do not plan on bringing this up to you again . I’ve mentioned recently what it means to have a relationship with Jesus , so I will not keep bringing this up any further , unless you ask .
God bless you cattyjane .
Rick B and Falcon,
This is not directed to anything you said but I know I can reason with you guys. We should not rejoice that CattyJane is reading the NT. For the Hebrew Roots movement, apologetic answers by them for something like Col 2:16 is 101 level stuff for them. I’ve dealt with these members before, they take the most common arguments they hear and spin them on their heads and twist them into their own theology. Us rejoicing that CattyJane is reading the NT with these friends would be equivalent to us rejoicing that someone else were reading the NT with JWs. It just doesn’t make sense and won’t work at all, not while being fed twisted verses.
And we shouldn’t rejoice that that she believes that Jesus is the Messiah. How many cults don’t believe at least that?
No, we should not rejoice until she confesses the true nature of Christ and nothing short of that. I mean, why can’t we just leave Cattyjane alone? Because what we are doing here is bringing people out of Mormonism into the true Christ. If we are not doing that then I suggest we all hang up our coats and call it day because otherwise we’re just a sounding board for any philosophy under the sun. But I don’t believe that’s what MRM is. The source of the problem is obvious, and we become an obstacle to the truth if we become content with falsehood. That’s real.
MT,
Well it is an interesting exercise isn’t it? When cattyjane showed up here she was a lapsed member of the LDS sect and was meeting with the MM with the possibility of getting on board the (LDS) bus again. Over time and with off-site e mail interaction with some regulars here at MC, she decided to jump off the sinking ship of Mormonism and go a different direction.
So now she’s into the Jewish roots movement or whatever and embracing another religious experience; having left Mormonism.
Of course I sit here shaking my head wondering what this meandering is all about. People join groups to get their needs met and leave groups when those needs stop being met. This Jewish roots movement is some how tripping her trigger. I’d like to encourage her to not waste her time because I know what’s coming down here. I hope it’s a phase.
I don’t think it’s all that bad on a site that has as it’s mission to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to Mormons to have this exchange going on with cattyjane. In fact I think it’s a great expose of what happens to a certain segment of the former Mormon population.
Yea I get concerned for her because I came through the period of the Jesus Movement of the late 60s and early 70s and witnessed people going off on all sorts of religious tangents. I won’t claim a vision but I see a picture in my mind of cattyjane sitting in a boat with her hand on the tiller trying to navigate through a very rough and rolling sea. She’s not wearing a life jacket. I hope she can stay in the boat until the storm passes and the light breeze of faith allows her to chart a safe course.
@Mike R, Makeitshine, Kate, Falcon
I know you are just worried about me. I should never had said anything on here. This is way out of control now. I think I will just step back from all of this. Yes Mike I am really upset by this. Its times like this when it feels so much easier to just walk away from all religion and belief systems, but I know that is the wrong decision. Ive done everything you have said to do but it looks like none of that matters because now its about accepting the Trinity and attending a MRM approved Christian church. Tomorrow it will just be something else. I can’t respond anymore. Im just going to say something that I might regret later and my list of those is already long enough.
I really don’t have the energy to fight this anymore.
Catty, I just ask you consider that while Christianity is actually quite broad in most respects, there are so me things that are non-negotiable. These are the same things we object to get new Mormonism. The Trinity is one of those non-negotiables within Christianity. To deny the deity of Christianity is to deny God Himself. Denying the Tri-nature of God also denies Him directly.
I am just posting this to let you know why we take this issue so seriously. We are not out to get you, but to defend God.
catty, I’m sorry you feel this is a fight . But since you feel that way then may I offer this : run from the many people vying for your attention , and run to God . Get alone with just Him and His word .
This can help anyone who feel they are being pulled in several different directions etc .
Since you have decided to read the New Testament that affords you with the opportunity to get alone with it and God , read and ponder , and re-read .
Years ago someone very close to me took the time to get alone with God and His word at a time when she was being tugged in different directions about what to believe . It helped her greatly . It might help you as well , please consider it .
Re: CattyJane
Hi All, maybe just give CattyJ some space as she’s going through some mourning at this time. I’m sure she’ll be happy that you’ve given feedback, but perhaps this time might be tough.
As far as content is concerned you’all are stating it as it should be. More love please and positive comments? Or correct doctrine in a positive type of tone 🙂
CattyJane,
I’m probably your least favorite person here but please hear me out. You feel burned by Mormonism, I know this. Now you’re trying to feel this whole religion thing out.
I grew up nominal Christian at best, then began going to church in my later teens, then became acquainted with this thing called Mormonism. “What if Christians are wrong about Mormonism the same way that Jews are wrong about Christianity?”, I asked myself. Sounded very reasonable at the time. From there it was just a big snowball of my own personal beliefs intertwined with all the major religions. I wonder how much that resonates with so many people who have encountered Mormonism?
After many years of the highest confusion that I swore was enlightenment I came back to faith in Christ alone as God, but in a heretical twist this time. I then started digging into Judaism pretty hard. It literally make me nauseous to see your story play out here because it’s just too close to home.
Do you know what got my attention? It was God himself. You know, it says that His rod and staff are comforting? Looking back on it, being disciplined is comforting, but in the midst of it it’s terrifying. I got the godsmack. I promise you that I absolutely do NOT wish what has happened to me to happen to anyone. But God had a plan, and it seems as though my experience can benefit others, or so it would seem.
Honestly, I’m still on a journey of sorts. I left the baptist churches for the lutheran churches. But really that change is just superficial because the core is already the same for both. The Trinity is the core of peace with religion. Until that is reached all searching is going to leave you empty, although you may feel complete at times you will realize that it is all an illusion of crazy glue and popsicle sticks.
I know you’re confused. My heart goes out to you. What could anyone have said to me? Probably nothing. I don’t know what to do. I honestly do not want you to leave. I just want you to come to a correct knowlegde of God, that’s it. And I know that that puts pressure on you. But it would be better for us to agree on God and disagree about the Law than to constantly argue about both.
Please answer me this if you have decided to go. Why the resistance to the Trinity? What is the hold up for you? Why do you feel as though the Trinity is to be rejected? I ask that with the highest sincerity and regard for you.
This is really an interesting subset of the population at large.
How many people spend this much time on spiritual matters/religion? It really shouldn’t be that difficult to find God should it? But judging from the stories of those posting on MC, few if any haven’t struggled in some way.
There’s a large segment of the population that are nominal believers while there are others who give God scant attention at all. Funny thing though. To me it seems that the nominal believers and often the non-believers are comfortable and happy.
But here we are, genuinely concerned about cattyjane and her spiritual quest. Why is that? We certainly aren’t trying to get her to join a particular religious group. We aren’t recruiting.
It seems to me that what we are doing here on MC is provide information, for those who stop by here, regarding the orthodox beliefs of Christianity. I would say our motives are pure. I don’t think we’re a bunch of people who like to argue.
So like they use to say on the “X-Files”……………………”The truth is out there.”
@cattyjane – Hang in there girl! I really hope you don’t leave. Sounds like you just need time to get things sorted out. Is there any questions about the trinity that you could ask or certain scriptures that are stumping you?
@MikeR – Fear is conquered by love. I learned that from the Movie “Frozen” 😉
@MistT – “Trinity is the core of peace with religion”
This! Its God himself that we need, not religions! Although humans can turn it into a system and it does have its institutional aspects these are just tools to help people in their spiritual life, Christianity is not a religion, its a revelation of God! Its an end to the one thing people have tried to reconcile with from the beginning – suffering and death. That is the message of the resurrection.
I do want to put something out there too, I was listening to a podcast a long time ago and it said something like this. They were talking about the divine liturgy and said that the book of John was not read when the catechumens were present. I think the catechumen process was like 3 years? Anyhow the reason for this was because it is the theological gospel and it was part of the inner mystery. This is where the true nature of Christ is revealed both in the scripture and in the breaking of the bread. So the first thing people would learn was that Jesus is the messiah according to the scriptures (OT). Anyone could be taught this, it was for the masses. After they came to accept this they would get baptized and chrismated and enter into the deeper mysteries. So it wasn’t until AFTER the baptism and chrismation that most people would come to know Christ intimately! Now there were cases (pentecost) where the spirit was poured out and people entered right into it and this still happens today, but for some it is a longer process (me!).
Now we have everything kind of all layed out for us in the open, so people can kind of come at the trinity backwards from more of a cerebral place. The trinity is REVEALED to the church, not just thought up mentally.
In the first centuries where you had apostolic churches and you had heretical sects. The apostolic churches were led by the bishops that the apostles put in place and those that came after. Sometimes heretics would form from the outside and sometimes bishops would go astray from the apostolic teaching and claim “new revelations” or that they had secret teachings of Jesus and they would be put outside of the Church and given a new name (usually of the person they followed) Valentians, Marcionites etc. You see these already in the new testament. All of them claimed to be following Christ. Anyhow today, these little sects you see are just like in the first centuries. They pop up, gain some steam and then burn out and return in some other form later right up until the present day. A lot of it is that its part of our nature to want something new and exciting. Theres a reason why they burn out, and you can see why now just watching what is happening with the mormons. Its because they are not built on a solid foundation of the apostolic teaching.
Happy Thanksgiving all!
RikkiJ
Thank you for your concern. That was very sweet of you. Im doing ok. The grandfather that I was closest to was ready to go. He lived a long amazing life and understood it was his time. God determines the time we are born and the time that we return to him. I just pray for mercy when we meet him.
MistTest
Yes you frustrate me the most I would say. I wish I could just sit down face to face with you and explain things. Then maybe you would understand that what we believe is not so different. The idea that the Messiah is one being with the Father is difficult. I know that Messiah is divine in nature and I know his spirit existed before the creation of the world. I also believe that every time we see Angel of the Lord in the OT it is speaking of him. Because the usage of the word Angel here is different from its usage in other verses where Angel is spoken of. I don’t believe that the Messiah is an angel tho. Not like JWs. The Angel of the Lord is a King somehow. I don’t know. Im working on this. I have a book that im reading that is slowly explaining this. Its just that over the last 2 years Ive studied so many things that say God is one and can’t be more than that. It scary to say otherwise.
I have to have the why and how for things. Its just my nature. I didn’t investigate things when I joined the LDS. I trusted my friend who I thought knew scripture. When I started looking into it myself is when I realized what a mistake I had made. I won’t attach myself to this idea of the trinity until I can see that its there in scripture. From what I’ve seen so far I think it could be possible. I just need some time to go over it. I do know that in the end Messiah will rule as King over all. I know we will bow to him as King.
We gather information, gain knowledge, and along the way we make certain inferences. We draw conclusions based on the best information we have available at the time. It’s the learning process. Having a systematic way of coming to conclusions is sort of what the scientific method is all about. And yet we know that even scientists, using all of their research models, often get it wrong.
There’s a reason why Mormons depend so heavily on their “testimony”. They pronounce that they “know” things based on some sort of nondescript feeling called a “burning in the bosom”. And then they go out and try to prove through “evidence” what they have felt emotionally. Not a good system for coming to conclusions as to what is true.
So if someone does have a testimony regarding Mormonism, what do they confess to? Well they confess to Joseph Smith being a prophet, the BoM being inspired scripture, the LDS being the one true church, and their current prophet being a prophet. Down at about #5 on the list, Jesus is thrown into the mix. Those of us who know about Mormonism, know that Jesus is a sort of add-on because all of these other things are equal to, if not more important than the Lord in the LDS system.
For a Mormon, or anyone really, the starting point is Jesus. Who is He? What is His nature? How does He fit into the whole God scenario?
I mentioned in a previous post that the turning point for me was when I came to the point where I knew I was a sinner but I think even before that I concluded that Jesus is/was God incarnate.
I don’t think we can underestimate the spiritual battle that goes on around us, both seen and not seen. The apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians said to put on the full armor of God in order to be protected from the evil darts fired at us by the enemy. Paul also tells us to “take captive every thought”. He also says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty on-to God for the pulling down of strongholds.
The coming to faith in Christ often follows a spiritual battle, but it doesn’t end there. I often wished for myself that it had. It’s very difficult, I have learned, to fight a spiritual battle with carnal weapons.
So for that Mormon who showed up here today on Thanksgiving, I give thanks that God has brought you here at this time and place to show you the way and means to the Father. It is through the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us there is no other way. I know it’s very difficult for a Mormon, especially one who has been heavily involved in the program, to even begin to consider that possibly it’s not true. The whole process can be very confusing and emotionally taxing. It is, a spiritual battle.
CattyJane,
I know it seems some of us are being mean, but were not, were just being honest.
Along with many people here, I was almost lead astray when I was a young believer. I did not know the Bible very well, I was new in the faith, I was going to a church that did not teach the word, but taught topical studies, and more times than not the studies were either on Money, or on how we need to be saved.
I was out with my wife doing some street witnessing and met two guys, one really seemed to know his bible, but he was was was called, a Jesus only person. I started listing to him and got baptized by him and was so close to being lead astray. It took my wife and friends to tell me the truth and set me straight.
Now I’m not like most here in the sense that, since I was almost lead astray that I would not trust people or stop reading the Bible, or not read the apostles. There were believers I knew that knew the word of God, so I would talk with them and dig into my word. I started doing all my own research and now I only read limited amount of books. I read cook books, since I’m a chef. I read Mormon books to better witness to them, and I read my Bible, both OT and NT. Pretty much nothing else.
Now we seem to go after you hard, but it’s because you say things that we question, we question them because at times it seems you dont trust the Bible, God or the things you say seem to run contrary to the Bible.
Remember, Jesus and the apostles warned us of False prophets to Come, and even say, some will even come from with in our own ranks. I tell people that when we see a wolf in sheeps clothing, where do you think the wolf got the sheeps clothing? They had to attack and kill the sheep.
Now the NT also tells us, if we see someone in Error (A brother or sister) we need to correct them, and we are to rebuke, exhort and correct. If we claim to care and we dont do these things, then we really dont care. I for one despite how I might sound to people Do care. As I said many times, Me and my wife did not spend all the time we did talking to you and praying for you If we did not care.
CattyJane,
“Yes you frustrate me the most I would say. I wish I could just sit down face to face with you and explain things”
Well, I am honored, I thought for sure that Rick “Teddy Bear” B would have that honor! 🙂
Seriously though, here is how I’m going to handle the situation going forward. I will not stop until you have accepted the Trinity and uprooted yourself from the hebrew roots theology.
That being said, there is a right way and a wrong way of doing that. There is an obvious tension between rebuking someone sharply, and rebuking them with gentleness and love, both of which are Scriptural. The wrong way would be to just combat everything you say tit-for-tat and tell you you’re wrong and leave it there.
On the other hand, the right way would be to consider where you are now and where have come from and want to know why you think what you think.
I know you are in a hard time right now trying to figure this all out. You don’t trust me, and neither should you at this stage. You have every right to be stand off-ish right now. Nobody is asking you to have a testimony of the truthfulness of what we are saying.
That’s my approach and my understanding of you going forward. Now, you admit that you are still open to ideas and learning. The best way for you to demonstrate that is to not be so confident that what you are saying is true and that we are wrong. It’s going to be impossible for you to be both open to ideas and totally confident in your position at the same time. Only inquiring minds truly want to know.
Also, consider the possibility that your friends could be wrong. Ask yourself, why do they teach things that no Christian I know teaches? Why do they completely ignore the theology of the first several centuries after the Apostles? Why is this such a small fringe group that just only existed for a few decades when the church that Christ left on the earth is two thousand years old? These should be red flags that should at the very least make you ponder and be less assertive.
You should also question what we say, too. Also, I would recommend you consider getting back in contact with Rick B, I know nothing about him other than what he’s posted here but I know enough that I would trust him to be the spiritual mentor of my daughter in an emergency.
I look forward to having a thoughtful and inquisitive conversation going forward, hopefully. If not then I will resent the long arguments that will follow. Regardless, have a happy Thanksgiving everyone!
MT said
I thought so also, but I dont want it for the sake of being a jerk, I want it because I earned it for standing up for the truth and having the word of God in my heart and as a result people get convicted and seek out the truth.
MT also said
I’m truly honored you said that, thanks.
Now onto Cattyjane, in the NT we read
like MT said, dont believe us, search the scriptures.
Then acts
The OT prophets spoke of Jesus to come, and Jesus is God. Again, He claimed to be God when He said, before Moses was I AM.
Jesus also claimed to be the Passover lamb who came to take away the sin of the world.
Jesus also is our City of Refuge and our High Priest. The word Trinity is not found in the Bible, but the concept is all over the Bible.
@cattyjane – “I won’t attach myself to this idea of the trinity until I can see that its there in scripture.”
This is a good idea, but also remember the Church didn’t have a set cannon for a couple hundred years. They couldn’t just go to the “Bible” to figure out what they believed. How did they know how to even understand the writings they had or which ones were apostolic and which were not? Because it was handed to them from the Apostles. The teaching was both written and oral. They were understood from within the church (there is an OT reference I have somewhere for this someone showed me but I need to find it, it has to do with the time of Amos and the torah being lost and then found and the woman being the one to interpret them, women in scripture are a type for the church.)
2 thess 2:15 – Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Anyone can make scripture say whatever they want, but its the church that interprets them properly. This was happening from very early on and its what brought about the trinity doctrine in the first place. The church probably would have been happy not to talk about it because its a mystery, but Arius had to be addressed. Its more of a protection against what God is not rather than a definition of what he is, but I think if you study the apophatic theology of the Early fathers that might help.
MistTest
If I remember correctly you and I bumped heads immediately when I first came on here.
I do quite a bit of correspondence with RikkiJ in email. There are some things that he has brought up about the trinity that I have considered. So I do have someone from this group that I communicate with regularly.
I will try not to be so judgmental toward Christianity on here.
MJP
I often forget to address some of the things that you say to me because I get all wound up by some other peoples comments, but you say a lot of really good things.
You said, “I am not clear exactly what she believes, though I see definite movement away from Mormonism and towards knowledge and understanding of the traditional Judeo/Christian belief system.”
Yes this is exactly it. Im sorry if I offended you in my earlier responses. I do get a bit passionate about things and get upset when people are not understanding what it is im saying. You asked about the Sabbath. You might be surprised at my understanding of this.
The sabbath day allows us to stop and remember who we serve, who we are, where everything we have comes from and what our purpose in this world is. We stop chasing after our own desires, needs and profits in this world. We focus on serving others and we do it in the name of the Lord.
Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 explains that Sabbath means to rest in God. Jesus being the rest means he is the door to the promised land. Just as the people were delivered by God and promised a land flowing with milk and honey, so we to have been delivered from the curse of sin and death and have been promised a portion in the the world to come. We are now in the wilderness and are being warned not to harden our hearts with sin or we will not enter into His rest. If we harden our hearts to the Lord/Messiah/Jesus we will die in this wilderness in the same way those people died in the wilderness and did not enter the promised land.
Observing the Sabbath is a time to draw us back to remembering to care for one another and focus on the promise that we have been given. We inspect our lives and realign it with Gods commands. We meet with our brothers and sisters and make sure that they are doing ok. In this world it is very easy to think that we are an army of one, ourselves, but we are not. We are a community and we are expected to care for one another. God commands that so many times in scripture.
Observing Sabbath is not rituals or not using electricity. Its about not pursuing our own affairs, like we do the other six days of the week, but doing the work of the Lord Isaiah 58:13 . We are to care for those who cannot care for themselves and offer compassion to the hungry Isaiah 58:6-12. Its a day that is set aside specifically to shine his light into the world. To do things for others in His name. Not for merit points but as an opportunity to share the gospel. Its also about setting time aside to study scripture, investigate my actions, have communication with God, and spiritually prepare for the week ahead. The Sabbath we observe here should be a picture of what it will be in the world to come, where we will always be doing the work of the Lord and praising His name.
I guarantee someone will pop up and give the argument of I can do this everyday. Yes you can do this everyday. How many times did you do it this week? I will be honest and say none. I work 5 days a week and im a mom. I have a busy schedule. If I have an opportunity to help someone in need I will do it but it doesn’t always happen. On the weekend I like to clean and work around the house and be lazy. God knows that we are creatures of schedule and habit I think (this is my own interpretation). Just like if I don’t schedule a set time to work out at the gym, im not going to do it. I trust that God knows what is best for me since he created my spirit and my body. I know that it is Gods will for me to care for others on this earth and also spend time with Him. I do as he says and I don’t question his commands. Its one day out of 7 days. He doesn’t ask for much does He.