In October (2014) Mormon blogger Jana Riess wrote about the “shadow side” of Mormonism: the “tendency to idolize – as in actually make idols of – the men who run our church. An idol is anything we use as a substitute for God,” Dr. Riess wrote, “and I feel that sometimes, we cross that line in Mormon culture.”
Citing the beloved Mormon hymn, “Praise to the Man,” that idolizes Joseph Smith as an intercessor for people in heaven, Dr. Riess admonished, “That is not okay.” Referencing Terryl and Fiona Givens’ book, The Crucible of Doubt, she explained that the Givenses
“beautifully get to the heart of one of the greater dangers of idolatry, that we will surrender our own agency and growth. We are so very eager to avoid making decisions ourselves: ‘too often, we confuse the call to discipleship with the desire to unload responsibility for our spiritual direction onto another. Christ invites us to assume the yoke, but we would rather ride in the cart.’ (p 62)”
Some years ago former Mormon Kathleen Baldwin wrote about what she, as a Christian, missed about being a member of the Mormon Church. This element of Mormon life – that of having someone make decisions for her – figured prominently in her sense of loss. Because Kathleen’s reflections on transitioning from Mormonism to Christianity are filled with valuable insight, I offer them here.
What I Miss About Being a Mormon
by Kathleen Baldwin
This ministry exists to alert people to the spiritually damaging teachings of the LDS Church and hopefully steer them toward saving grace. However, I think it behooves us to take a moment to reflect on the reasons why a Mormon wants to stay Mormon. Sometimes we stand outside and scratch our heads wondering why they won’t listen, why they won’t awaken to the truth, why they don’t rebel against the strictures of their man-made religion? The Mormon Church is compelling. If it weren’t, it wouldn’t present much of a threat. Today I’m going to confess to you some of the things I sincerely miss about my life as an entrenched Mormon.
First and foremost, I miss the sense of belonging. No matter what city I moved to or what part of the country I visited, I knew I would have a branch or ward of the Mormon Church waiting to welcome me with open arms. Instant friends. Friendship is compelling.
Come Let Us Rejoice by Walter Rane
You might wonder what sort of friends they were, if they would be so instantly accepting? Good friends. Let me explain why. Mormons work very hard. The women, in particular, work extremely hard. When I told my sister that I was leaving the Mormon Church to become a Born-Again Christian, she smacked her hand angrily against the steering wheel and shouted at me, “I feel like you’re abandoning me! Leaving me to work all by myself.”
She was right. I abandoned the Mormon struggle to achieve perfection. I accepted grace and left the impossible work to Jesus Christ.
Common struggle is a powerful binding force. Mormon women labor together in Relief Society, Visiting Teaching, Primary, genealogy, Church Welfare Farms, Mutual, Sunday school. They commiserate with one another in their struggle to achieve perfection within their families and in themselves. They labor under this impossible load together. They lament their failures together. Weep together. Celebrate their triumphs together. These common battles bind them together. Look at the cohesiveness of other support groups: cancer patients, children of alcoholics, Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Mormons feel like they are fighting a war together, just like the soldiers in Band of Brothers. Pulling together in this overwhelming struggle creates a nearly unbreakable bond; one that is very hard to leave.
I also miss not having to think so hard. Don’t laugh. It’s true. Now that I am a Christian I must think about everything, discern right from wrong on an hourly basis. Whew! There is something to be said for being told exactly what to do. The Mormon Church dictated everything, from the length of my skirt to what I ought to eat and drink, whether my child could go to a slumber party, or date before age sixteen. Rules placate us. Rules take away the need for exercising thought, or discernment. Ah, but God, He wants us to think, expects us to consult with Him, mull it over, evaluate the situation, consider the individuals involved. It’s much easier to be told exactly what’s expected.
The LDS Church had a master plan for their members’ lives, everything planned to keep them busy, busy, busy, until the grave. It’s no accident that they chose the symbol of the beehive for the Utah state logo; industrious folks, Mormons. Boys go on missions at [eighteen], come back, go to school, marry, obtain productive and lucrative jobs, raise as many children as possible, convert friends, serve as leaders in local wards, work, work, work.
One thing that terrified me when leaving Mormonism might surprise you. Funerals. If someone in my family died, I worried, how I would know what to do? I’d done funerals the Mormon way all my life. I knew exactly how to proceed as a Mormon, but how did other people do it? In the Mormon Church, every ritual has a format that the members are accustomed to. Weddings, births, baptisms and funerals are all handled a certain way. There is comfort in knowing exactly how these big stressful life-passage moments will be conducted. As a Christian, I’ll be winging it.
Speaking of master plans, did you know every Mormon meeting format is the same in New York as it is in Arizona? Yep, everything is conducted uniformly. Even the Church buildings are laid out exactly the same. A ward building in California will have the same layout as a ward building in Maine. There’s comfort in familiarity. You know where the restrooms are without asking.
Elements such as these create confidence in the Mormon Church organization. This produces security. A Mormon has faith in the “Church” rather than in Jesus Christ. This is known as collective faith. The Mormon believes her church is leading her to heaven. She does not have to worry about her personal faith as much. As long as she has confidence that the LDS Church is guiding her correctly, all she has to do is obey. This reduces her need for developing a trusting relationship with God. Her primary trust is in the Church. It’s much easier to trust the tangible than the intangible.
As a Christian, I feel like the lonely pilgrim in The Pilgrim’s Progress. My journey is my own. Sure, I meet friends and have some companionship along the way, but it is largely a journey I make alone. And so it is for every Christian. My relationship with God is unique–individual–as is yours. It does not take the shape of a carefully outlined, step-by-step, pre-organized plan. God plans it. Our Father in Heaven has a unique relationship development plan for every believer, just as you have a unique plan for relationship with each of your children, your friends and family.
God is in control of our relationship. The Christian faces the choice of responding to God or not responding. This connection with God becomes a living breathing reality between Father and child. No longer is it a function of performing certain universal tasks to fulfill the requirements laid out by church leaders and thereby appease the Heavenly taskmaster.
Our life’s adventure does not consist of predictable certainties laid out for us by church leaders. It is a walk we take by faith. Predictability, fitting a mold, adhering to a list of rules–these things do not require much faith.
When I became a Christian, I traded earthly security to keep my eyes on Jesus. And, just like Peter when he tried to walk on water, this requires steadfast faith or I begin to sink. Real relationship ain’t pretty. Those who stay in the boat feel far more secure, and they have the luxury of smugness. They don’t get wet. Jesus doesn’t scold them, saying, “Oh ye of little faith.” No, they remain unchastised, snug and safe on the boat.
Mormons keep their eyes on an earthly man, a “prophet,” a flesh and blood guy they see twice a year at their General Conference. They rely on him to get the latest scoop from God. As a Mormon, I thought all I had to do was listen and obey, and then I’d be all right eternally. Now that’s security. Too bad, it isn’t real security.
Safety is compelling. If safety is of foremost importance to your Mormon friend, she will stay on the boat. She will sit tight and listen to the man she thinks is a prophet. She won’t get sloshed with grimy seawater trying to do something crazy like walk on water. Me, I’m willing to risk it. I’ve got the Son of God out there with me.
Yes, I miss many things about being Mormon, the comradeship of my struggling friends, the sense of security (albeit false), the comfort of sameness and familiar rituals. But there isn’t enough security or comfort in the world to make me re-strap that impossible burden on my back. No earthly friendship could compel me to give up the satisfying relationship I have with my Creator and Savior. Nothing in this world could make me go back to being a slave to the law now that I have been adopted by grace into the freedom of Christ’s family.
—
Kathleen’s article was originally published in A Word in Season, Winter 2004.
Keeping the sabbath?
Not a topic I’ve gotten into since coming to Christ in 1972. I had a lot of Sunday sabbath keeping as a Catholic. It was all very well laid out as to what was permitted and what wasn’t. So, of course, when you have a “law” people are always trying to figure out how to get around it. Pretty soon the law becomes an enemy. It’s human nature.
So anyway I did a little search and found this to be a pretty interesting take on the topic. Even a logic excerpt from John Calvin.
Here’s a taste, not from Calvin, but from the writer:
“We believe the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances are ceremonial, not moral, aspects of the law. As such, they are no longer in force, but have passed away along with the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood, and all other aspects of Moses’ law that prefigured Christ. Here are the reasons we hold this view.”
…..and from Calvin:
“…….there is no doubt that it ceased in Christ; because he is the truth by the presence of which all images vanish. He is the reality at whose advent all shadows are abandoned. Hence St. Paul (Col. 2:17) that the sabbath has been a shadow of a reality yet to be. And he declares elsewhere its truth when in the letter to the Romans 6:8, he teaches us that we are buried with Christ in order that by his death we may die to the corruption of our flesh. And this is not done in one day, but during all the course of our life, until altogether dead in our own selves, we may be filled with the life of God. Hence, superstitious observance of days must remain far from Christians.”
http://www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA135/are-the-sabbath-laws-binding-on-christians-today
Well, that was short lived.
You are still so confidently asserting that Christians are needing to obey the Sabbath, from Heb 3 & 4 even. I warned everyone that these hebrew roots groups take all the verses that deal with the mosaic covenant and twist them for their own purposes. She is clearly not trying to learn anything hear, rather she is trying to educate and correct us.
Wow MistakenTestimony
Im pretty sure I didn’t say anywhere in my post that it was by our own works of observing the sabbath that we entered into the world to come. Where in the world did you come up with that after everything I said? I don’t think you can pick through my words in my last post and come up with anything that is wrong of us to be doing here on this earth. I answered MJPs question about what keeping the sabbath has to do with our relationship to God. We do not earn our way into heaven. We do not earn our way into heaven. We do not earn our way into heaven. How many times must I say it before you open your ears and hear? You cannot live a scumbag selfish life and know the Lord. That is the truth of the matter. But you guys agree with that. If we know the Lord we will do good works. We will want to help others and care for one another. These will be the desires of our hearts.
You just want someone to stone and that is completely clear now.
Cattyjane,
I dont read MT saying he is looking for someone to stone.
You said
I dont know about you or anyone else here, But I do all these things 7 days a week, I dont just set aside on day to help others and serve God. I help others 7 days a week and serve others.
Also Jesus said, come to me all who labor, for my yolk is easy and my burden is light. I’m sorry Cattyjane, but living by the law is not an easy burden, then Jews today over in Israel cannot do it, I know, I have been to Israel twice. Jesus and the apostles also never teach or say, Follow the sabbath, set aside one day and do it. Jesus and his Apostles were accused of not keeping it. And according to what you said, Jesus clearly did break it since He healed and set others free on days that were not the sabbath.
Also notice when Jesus healed someone, or cast out a demon, he forgave their sins. That proved 1. He was/is God. And 2. Pointed to their greater need, salvation and forgiveness, that comes first, then their need to be set free or healed comes second.
It sounds like what we did as mormons on sunday, but why is there anything wrong with setting aside a day to focus more on this during the week. Is it the reasons you think she is doing it for that’s wrong?
We try to do this usually on sunday at my house (although not perfectly) but I have also recently set aside some time everyday for a short prayer rule in morning. I don’t fret if I forget but it has sure helps me keep my eyes on God during the day if I do it.
Question- falcon mentioned sunday sabbath. Is that when most christians call the sabbath or is it sat? The eastern O. Say it’s saturday and its considered a holy day still (not sure yet what that means to them) and Sunday is the 8th day. That is the day of the future kingdom which is already present in heaven and they enter into that in sunday worship. So are we are now in the 7th day resting in the tomb or dying with christ until the resurrection?
Makeitshine,
I see Cattyjane keep talking about the passover and the sabbath.
as far as the passover, I keep pointing out, if you want to follow the OT passover, then are you really bringing a lamb into your home to live, then killing it and roasting it over fire, eating it all with bitter herbs? She never tells me if she is really doing this, since she wont answer me, it leads me to believe she is not. But I do follow the passover, the passover as Jesus gave it, bread and wine in remembrance of what He did.
Now as far as the Sabbath, here is what Exodus says
It was given to the Jews, not us gentiles. I have said to her, it’s all or nothing, if you dont keep it, you must die, if your with others who claim to follow it and they dont, they must die. Are your really doing that? Then verse 17 says, It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever:
The sabbath is a sign between God and the Jews. Were not Jews, were gentiles. Read and show me from the NT where Jesus or the Apostles teach and say, we MUST keep the OT sabbath. It is not in their, and Jesus was accused of Breaking it.
MakeItShine,
You said, “Question- falcon mentioned sunday sabbath. Is that when most christians call the sabbath or is it sat? The eastern O. Say it’s saturday and its considered a holy day still (not sure yet what that means to them) and Sunday is the 8th day. That is the day of the future kingdom which is already present in heaven and they enter into that in sunday worship. So are we are now in the 7th day resting in the tomb or dying with christ until the resurrection?”
No, Christians do not consider sunday to be the sabbath, that is saturday. We typically celebrate on sunday because that is the day of the Resurrection of the Lord. And you are right about the 7th and 8th day and what that symbolizes for the sabbath rest that was ushered in by God at the creation, and the rest of the redeemed realized on the 8th day through the blood of Christ.
But there is no imperative to regard saturday or sunday as “holy” days, for Rom 14:5. I have friends in the military who go to church on fridays.
CattyJane has admitted that she tells her friends about her posts here at MRM, and since some of them hold this hebrew roots theology we should be aware that they could be reading the conversation and bouncing ideas off of her to refute the verses we use to refute her. I’m concerned that MC could become a sounding board for her cult, even though she is neither christian nor mormon. Just my concern, but not a baseless concern.
MistakenTest
None of my friends that are in Hebrew roots will be reading this. I have LDS friends that i have shared MRMs facebook page with. So no worries about intruding on the doctrine you want sold on here.
RickB
Your posts are annoying me because you have absolutely no understanding of the stuff you are posting. I refuse to engage your comments or waste my time explaining things.Ive explained it before on this site and it went in one ear and out the other.
Cattyjane,
Your not explaining anything, all you do is post OT scripture to say, it proves other OT scripture. Otherwise, your not really refuting anything or answering my questions.
Oh boy!
rick doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Now where have I heard that before?
I’m sorry but I can’t get too excited about the Sabbath keeping controversy. It’s just not an issue with me. I think it’s been pretty much covered over the last 2,000 years of Christian history. Here’s what I’d consider an exhaustive treatment of the topic. It’s titled “The Origins of Sunday Worship in the Early Church”. It seems scholarly in its treatment of the topic.
“Thesis statement: Although seventh-day Sabbatarians cite evidence that Jesus and the primitive church kept a seventh-day Sabbath, nevertheless first and second-century church writers show that some Christian communities began to meet on the first day of the week after Jesus’ resurrection, and that worship began to shift from the seventh day to the first day of the week at that time. The early church gave warrants for making this shift from the Gospels and the Pauline writings.”
This is quite a lengthy presentation but I think it covers the history of the tradition very well.
http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath/hanson
Falcon,
You know as well as I do, I back up what I say with scripture, and the only people that tell me I have no clue and then say, I’m done talking with you are the ones that I’m getting closest to the truth.
of all the other people here, including the Mods never seem to come on her and back up the people that tell me I’m wrong, no one ever seems to say, Rick We agree with so and so, we read what they said and what you said and were sorry to say this, but Rick, Your wrong. That just never happens, So that tells me, I must know what I’m talking about and people simply cannot answer my questions or need an excuse to avoid answering them, so the stand by reply of, Rick you have no clue is tossed out.
I know I’m not the most knowledgeable person on this board, but it seems I’m always the only person ever to get told I’m wrong and so that tells me, It must simply be I ask questions, they go ignored and I remind people, your ignoring and avoiding my questions. Best way to deal with that, tell me I’m clueless and you refuse to talk anymore.
Makeitshine, M.T, RikkiJ, Falcon, and others.
CattyJane says I’m clueless and shes done talking to me, Thats fine, but lets be honest here. People like her dont want to answer questions. I keep going after people, I ask questions, when they go ignored I ask again. People who dont want to answer them tend to say, I’m clueless.
So if you guys want to, then you ask cattyjane the same questions.
She claims to follow the sabbath and the passover. I have asked her about 4 times maybe 5.
If you really keep the passover are you bringing a lamb into your home to live with your family, then killing it, roasting it over fire, eating it all in one night, putting the blood upon the door.
She wont answer that question and claims I’m wrong. Yet anyone here agree with her, then please show me from Scripture in the OT where I’m wrong, thats how it was done. If you keep the OT passover then thats what you do. If she is really doing that, how hard is it to say, yes I’m doing that.
Otherwise, claiming I’m wrong, then prove it.
Now onto the sabbath, I gave the verses from Exodus, if you dont keep the sabbath you get put to death. And it was for the Jews only. Cattyjane is not a Jew, and she is not putting people to death for not keeping the OT sabbath and not asking to be put to death if she fails.
So if I’m wrong, someone back it up from Scripture, I showed everyone from Exodus what it clearly says and you cannot find other scripture that contradicts it. I get tired of people trying to say I have no clue when I can back it up, and they cannot.
@CattyJane
There are some great, positive changes that you’ve made. First, you’ve kept an open mind about Jesus being the Messiah. While in the beginning of your search for the truth about the LDS faith, you began to question Christianity, you have come acknowledge that at the very least, the OT is still scripture, and is still reliable, complete and inerrant.
I believe that has now extended at the very least to the gospels, with an open mind about the rest of the NT. While in the past you had difficulty understand Jesus as the Messiah, now you have accepted that Jesus / Yeshua is the Messiah. And while you may be having issues between the apparent discrepancy between the Father and the Son as being one (John 10:30, ESV) and the Father being greater than the Son (John 14:28, ESV) and all at the same time being God, the Son in flesh (Isaiah 9:6, ESV), your pursuit of the most High God will bring understanding.
Some might be harsh on you on this forum, and others a little gentler, but I believe they all have good intentions. It feels otherwise, but I believe many are praying for you.
I’m confident as you pursue Him, He will guide you into all truth (an old LDS adage – John 16:13, ESV). Be encouraged.
RikkiJ,
“your pursuit of the most High God will bring understanding. … I’m confident as you pursue Him,”
You as her confidant should be aware that she has stopped pursuing. I handed her an olive branch, called a truce even, and only asked that the stopped making assertions and start asking questions to demonstrate to us that she is truly as open minded as she claims. She’s not open minded, she’s clearly quite defensive and saying we don’t know what we’re talking about.
The other thing you don’t understand is that she is not an island unto herself right now. She has a couple of groups of friends who are feeding her twisted verses while you are talking to her on the side. You may see change, but this change you see will always be in the direction of these friends and not towards you. The problem is her support group, and I’m sorry to say it but all cults look for confirmation that they are Christians by Christians so that they can spread their false gospels more easily, and I fear you might be used as that confirmation for her ends.
And Rick B, why the heck does everybody who is obviously wrong say you’re wrong? I agree with what you said, why not say that to me? I guess you’re just getting to the heart of the matter.
I know folks grab on-to things and ride them like a hobby horse. With some it’s baptism. Baptism becomes, in a sense, an idol. They even insist that people who have already been baptized, get baptized by their particular group.
With overs it might be something like “re-dedication”. It’s all about going forward in a meeting if you’ve back slidden. Then the church can fill out the cards after the service and report to HQ how many got saved and how many re-dedicated.
I don’t think there are many around any more, but there was a group upset that the Catholic Church stopped saying the mass in Latin. They formed there own group. Some are a little more militant than others, the latter who want to preserve the tradition.
http://www.latinmassmadison.org/
……..and then there’s Sabbath keeping. The history of this is readily available and it seems that volumes have been written about it. So why the focus? Why does it grab some people? Why does it become a major focus of their relationship with God? I don’t know. Can it become an idol?
With idols, I think, people have the best of intentions initially. Does the NT command that believers observe the Sabbath in a particular fashion? If I get Sabbath keeping wrong will God look askance on me, with draw His blessings, grace and protection? I don’t think so.
This all leads me back to Jesus and the New Covenant in His blood. That’s where it is with me. It’s all about a changed life as a result of faith in Christ. I’ll make my stand on the cross of Christ. I’m certainly not going to make it on Sabbath observance.
The site that I linked to a few posts back, has some very interesting articles. Here’s a list:
Covenants in the Bible
What is the Law of God for Christians?
The Old Covenant and the Law of Moses
Can Old Covenant Worship Laws Become New Covenant Spiritual “Shadows”?
Comparison of Old and New Covenants
Has the New Covenant Been Made?
What Do the Scriptures Say About the Sabbath?
Is the Sabbath Required for Christians Today?
The Covenants and the Sabbath: The Old Testament Evidence
The Covenants and the Sabbath: The New Testament Evidence
Genesis 2:2-3 — God’s “Rest” and the Sabbath
What Do the Writings and the Prophets Say About the Sabbath?
Jesus and the Sabbath
Paul and the Sabbath
The Sabbath: Hebrews 4:9 and Other Questions
The Christian Sabbath: The Law and the Promise
A Response to “Why the Seventh Day?”
Another Letter to an Adventist
Is There a “Sabbath Principle” for Christians to Keep?
Can God’s Sabbath Law Be “Done Away”?
Sabbath and Sunday in Early Christianity
Sabbath and Sunday in the Early Second Century
Sabbath and Sunday in the Writings of Irenaeus
Sabbath and Sunday – Adventist Theories
Sabbath and Sunday – A New Hypothesis
The Origins of Sunday Worship in the Early Church
From Sunday to Sabbath: The Puritan Origins of Modern Seventh-day Sabbatarianism
The New Covenant and the Sabbath
Does Hebrews 4:9 Command Us to Keep the Sabbath?
The New Covenant in a Nutshell
The New Covenant Is Older Than You Think
Are Old Testament Laws Still Binding on Christians?
Circumcision: A Test Case for Evaluating Old Testament Laws
Are Some Meats Unclean?
Is Tithing Required in the New Covenant?
Is Leviticus 23:3 a Command to Have Worship Services on the Weekly Sabbath?
Is the Sabbath a Moral Law or a Ceremonial Law?
Jesus kept the Sabbath. Shouldn’t we follow his example?
Mark 2:27 – The Sabbath Was Made For Man
Matthew 24:20 – Why Pray Not To Flee on the Sabbath?
Sabbath, Circumcision, and Tithing: Which Old Testament Laws Apply to Christians?
Should We Move Our Worship Meetings to Sundays?
Six Reasons to Obey God
The Role of the Decalogue in Christian Ethics
The Role of the Law in Christian Life
What Scripture Says About the Annual Festivals
Which Old Testament Laws Apply to Christians Today?
I sort of over did it here with my list but it gives us an idea of the topics that are associated with the OT and Jewish tradition and how it relates to the Church. There’s enough here to keep someone busy for a long time.
http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath/hanson
So this leads me back to the New Covenant. From what I’ve heard, this concept is almost foreign to those involved with the LDS religion with its focus on a system that when practiced consistently will result in the practitioner becoming a god. The response by a Mormon will often be, “That’s too easy. Just accept Jesus by faith and you’ll be saved?” God didn’t mean for it to be complicated. He also didn’t mean for believers to begin making a lot of add-ons to His perfect plan.
“At its core, the new covenant is Jesus Christ. He embodies everything the new covenant is. He is the Word of God and the Son of God, made human for us. He is the Message of God, the Mind of God, the Meaning of God, made flesh for us to see and know and love. In himself, he enables us to be friends with God. In Jesus Christ, God has given us a new basis for our relationship with God. This is the covenant God has given; we respond to Christ with either yes or no.”
“How should we respond to what Jesus has done? We should turn away from self-reliance and put our confidence completely in Christ to wash us clean of sin, clothe us with righteousness and bring us into the family, the household, the kingdom of God. One way to describe it is that we quit doing things the devil’s way (relying on self) and do things God’s way. We stop building our own kingdom and accept the kingdom he has built for us. We accept the covenant-promise he has given us. That is how we can be in harmony and allegiance with him.”
“Our salvation — being rescued from destruction and restored as favored friends and children of God — depends entirely on Jesus Christ. He is the basis of this great rescue. Accepting him is the one requirement that God makes as the basis of this magnificent agreement we call the new covenant.”
Our “works” are a result of our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Our desire is to please Him not because of what we hope to gain, but out of gratitude for what He has gained for us.
For anyone trapped in an endless maze of rituals and requirements, the Good News is that the Father sent His Son to shed His blood and that this perfect sacrifice would be sufficient for entrance into His eternal Kingdom.
Galatians 3:
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Paul calls these teachers “foolish.” Christ became a curse for us while we were cursed. These false teachers blaspheme and insult the work of Christ on the Cross. But you just wait, Cattyjane will bounce Gal 3 off her friends and come back with an explanation that shows that the Law is still binding on Christians, she has already done that with Heb 3–4 and the sabbath, mark my words and wait for it.
@falcon – “That’s too easy. Just accept Jesus by faith and you’ll be saved?”
The reason they can’t make sense of this goes back to the way they see Jesus. If you see Jesus as a pre-existent spirit being who came to earth and died a substitutionary atonement/punishment death in order to pay some karmic debt and become a God, then no it doesn’t make sense to just say, “I believe in Jesus so now I’m going to heaven” That’s like punishing my son to correct my daughter and that’s why they need all those works and ordinances. Mormon Jesus is a separate god/being so how could he come into our hearts? They have the holy spirit, but hes a separate being also, so how you can put that all together I have no idea. That’s the problem with separating God into 3 separate beings/individuals it confuses everything.
Christians don’t see Jesus that way. He is the Word of God, he became a human being without ceasing to be God. When he became man he united human nature to Himself, when he raised from the dead he brought humanity up with him. He smashed open the gates of Hades. When we invite him into our life he cleanses us from the inside. He gives us his perfection. He won’t come in uninvited. The Christian God always does everything through his Word and Spirit in perfect unity, they are like the 2 hands of the father.
I think some Christians also hold a strong penal sub. theory (baptists?) which I’m not a fan of and that’s why I lean East when it comes to soteriology, but MistT was more correct in saying when you get to the heart of it the end result is pretty much the same, the rest glue and popsicle sticks.
Seems like people tend to weed out what isn’t good in their own little branch. My Roman Catholic friend said that all of her friends at church pretty much disagree on the same things and they kind of practice their own version which they do think helps in spiritual life. It can be hard to separate things out when you belong to a group that is by nature focused on “idols” or works though. There doesn’t seem to be the same pressure in her church that we had as Mormons.
OK, when I start repeating myself that’s a sure sign that a topic has been pretty much beaten to death. But I persist!
Didn’t the early Christian Church already go through this whole idea of maintaining the OT Law, specifically circumcision, Sabbath keeping etc.? And this is not to even mention such things as the doctrine of the nature of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
But perhaps every generation has to re-visit the topics. Now this wouldn’t be so bad if people did exhaustive research, but I guess that’s just too much work. Besides, there are experts who have done the work and know the controversies surrounding the various topics. But then it comes down to the conclusions they draw.
I feel no compulsion to keep the various rituals, procedures or customs of the OT Jews. I’ve placed myself under the Lordship of Jesus the Christ. He’s my Messiah, King and priest. I will not labor under the Old Covenant and the Law because Christ has fulfilled it all.
To me, the NT is clear. I can see why someone who has accepted to some degree, the notion of the Old Covenant applying to today’s believers won’t be a real fan of the NT. The NT explains very clearly what the New Covenant is all about. It tells us about the completed work of Christ and its significance.
It’s been proven that the NT is accurate. So the question is, is the NT true? Well if it isn’t “true” than forget about Jesus and the revelation He brought to us.
Mormons have accepted a notion that the Bible is corrupted and cannot be trusted to accurately bring us God’s revelation. Conveniently, for them, a “new” prophet came along who they say has restored first century Christianity. Having degraded the Bible, this prophet and those prophets after him, took license to construct their own revelation claiming it was from God.
Now the LDS beliefs are so out in left field that they are easily dismissed. But other groups and individuals do come along who sound good and can easily take in sincere people.
@ MistTest
I know I have already discussed this somewhere in the million comments that exist on this site.
There are many different laws that are referenced in the NT. Its important to know which ones are being spoken about. The one spoken of all through Galations is the Law of Moses which is also called the Book of the Law, the Mosaic Law and the Book of the Covenant. In Chapter 2 we read that Paul is saying they are not saved by keeping the Law of Moses and in chapter 3 he says that they are placing themselves under the curse of the law, the Mosaic Law, by trying to observe everything in the Book of the Law. Chapter 4 talks about observing days, months and years (feast days, monthly new moon festivals, yearly ceremonial sabbaths). These were all part of the ceremonial law, Book of the Law. In chapter 5 he speaks about cercumcision being a yoke of bondage. This is also part of the Jewish religion that is in the Book of the Law that was ended at the cross. The Book of the Law can also be called ordinances. Paul also writes to the Colossians about this issue of observing them in Colossians 2:14-16. The Book of the Law is what Moses read to the Israelites in the final chapters of Deuteronomy. This is where he explained that if they obeyed everything written in the Book of the Law they would be blessed but disobeying would result in a curse. The part in Galations 3:9-11 shows that it is referring to these things that Moses read. Joshua 8:34 also confirms this.
Just to confirm that the Book of the Law is different from the Ten Commandments you can look at the following scriptures.
Joshua 23:6
Deuteronomy 31:24-26 Notice where this was stored in regards to the ark of the covenant.
Exodus 24:7 Its called the Book of the Covenant
Exodus 34:28
Deuteronomy 10:5 The tables were placed in the ark.
The New Covenant now only has the Ten Commandment Covenant which God now writes in our hearts according to Hebrews 9:1 and Hebrews 8:10. The first covenant is said to have ordinances which I explained earlier in the post.
The ten commandments however is called the Perfect Law of Liberty. Its interesting how the ten commandments were written by the finger of God and the rest were written down by the hand of man. It makes sense that the ten would remain.
James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and coninueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
So you can see the law of liberty is the ten commandments. Im sure this is enough of a response to create some dialogue so I will wait and see if I need to explain more or not.
I think I am seeing where cattyjane might be headed with this, and some things we might agree on. Possibly her views on the commandments as they relate to salvation are more sided with Eastern thought on this. If she fits in this category there’s no reason her ideas on this would be considered un-Christian. I could be wrong so I’m going to keep watching this.
OK, time for the falcon to deconstruct cattyjane!
*It would be helpful if you would provide some references from where you are getting your ideas. Call me skeptical, but I don’t think you are reading from the NT and coming to these conclusions on your own. So I’d like to know what your source is. Notice how I always try to provide a source/link for what I present unless it’s basic orthodox well known general information.
cattyjane wrote:
“There are many different laws that are referenced in the NT.”
“………the Law of Moses which is also called the Book of the Law, the Mosaic Law and the Book of the Covenant.”
“….the Book of the Law is different from the Ten Commandments”
“……The New Covenant now only has the Ten Commandment Covenant……..”
“……..The ten commandments however is called the Perfect Law of Liberty.”
“A believer (part of the new covenant) has a new relationship to the law. The old relationship was slavery. The law brought condemnation. It declared him guilty. It proved the power of sin dominating the heart and body. A believer has no relationship to the law, but the the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ who indwells. Christ has set the believer free from the power of sin and the condemnation of the law (Rom. 8:1). Now we are free to obey in a victorious way! Through the power of the Holy Spirit that indwells us. We are not saved or justified before God by trying to keep the law. We are saved and justified through Jesus Christ and as Christ was victorious over the power of sin, so we too can walk in this victory by the power of His Holy Spirit which He has given us.”
“A believer’s mission is not to obey the Ten Commandments – that is old covenant thinking and it proved inadequate (which was its purpose). A believer’s mission, is to obey the Holy Spirit (“who will “move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws”).”
“When the old covenant law (Ten Commandments) came to the cross it was replaced by the indwelling Holy Spirit – the Spirit of the law of life in Christ Jesus.”
http://www.godstenlaws.com/law-grace/new-covenant/#.VHjGcsnAI9A
So cattyjane, how does this fit in with your emerging theology? As Christians we believe that when we come to Christ in faith we are Born Again by the Spirit of God. We then become the temple of the Holy Spirit as He indwells us based on our faith in Jesus.
The question for you is, what does the law being written on our hearts mean to you…….at this time?
catty said , ” I’m sure this is enough of a response to create some dialogue so I will wait and see if I
need to explain more or not .”
Create some more dialogue ? On what ? the actual topic of this thread or more on the rabbit trail
that’s dominated this thread ?
Here’s a small excerpt from one of Charles Spureon’s sermons, related to what we are discussing here. I’ll include the link to the entire sermon at the end of this post.
“Farther than that, and deeper than that God also writes his law upon the heart in regeneration, wherein he creates in man a new and better life. In regeneration, if I understand it at all, there is born in us a new nature. Our old nature is all sin, and it will never be anything else but sin. You may doctor it as you will, but it is a body of sin and death, and it will always remain so; but the new nature, which is born in us at our new birth, cannot sin, because it is born of God. It is a living and incorruptible seed, which liveth and abideth for ever; and that new heart, that right spirit, from its very birth, from its very origin, from its very nature, has the law and will of God engraved upon it. To the new nature, it is as natural to obey as to the old nature it is natural to disobey. To the new nature, it is as much its element to live in holiness as to the old nature it is its element to live in sin. Thus, by regeneration, the law of the Lord is written in the heart of his people.”
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/2506.htm
It’s obvious. God is holy and righteous and we are not. We are fallen and have a corrupted nature. God has revealed to us the behavior and right attitude he wants us to have. How do we achieve that? First of all, as I’ve stated countless times, by being Born Again by the Spirit of God. I don’t try to keep the Ten Commandments. I try to respond to the Holy Spirit who indwells me. We are to walk by the Spirit, not the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments have no power to change our behavior.
Falcon
So what laws are written on our hearts?
I meant to post the link at the bottom because I took all those passages from it but I got distracted by a Skype call and forgot to post it. That is why the abrupt ending. http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/galatians_ceremoniallaw.html
I was taught this information by the Christian pastor I told you I studied under for a year and half but this is the link that I referenced for the material in order to explain it. Oh by the way the link is Christian and not Hebrew Roots or anything else.
Makeitshine
Yes Im sure we do have many of the same ideas about the law. We just go about explaining them differently. But I think its more fun for everyone to pick and try to make me explain it how they want me to.
Mike R
Why don’t you refer back in the thread and see who started all of this. It wasn’t me. How bout you count the many posts by RickB demanding that I explain myself and defend what Im saying and encouraging others to do the same. Don’t throw me under the bus like this is my fault. I don’t bring this stuff up. I am always having to defend what I believe on this site because someone asks me to. I hope my last post helps to clear things up but im pretty sure people will just skim over it and miss the important details like me saying,
– we no longer observe the feasts and sacrifices
– we no longer observe the law of circumcision
– the ten commandments are written on our hearts
– JESUS CHRIST is what makes us righteous
– If we have the Messiah, who is JESUS CHRIST the Ten Commandments are now written on our hearts.
So quit getting mad at me like all of this is my fault because it isn’t.
“I hope that by freer [in Christ than in Mormonism] you dont mean because nothing is required except belief. That just isnt true. I honestly find the path that i am on harder now … So I find it more difgicult because every part of me is being weighed; my actions, my heart, my intent, my thoughts. The bar is raised not lowered.”
“The [small group] that I attend out of town does not believe in the NT. The group in town does believe in the NT. Both groups observe Lev 23 and the Ten commandments. Both observe Sabbath from fri to sat. Both observe these things according to the descrption at chabad.org.” [a Jewish website that denies that Jesus is the Christ]
“I can prove what i believe in scripture. That is what matters. … I wont attend a christian church because most of what they teach is out of context.”
“It amazes me that Christianity is willing to accept so many lies; Christmas, Easter, Lent, working on the Sabbath, having Sabbath on the First day of the week and not the seventh and its completely ok as long as they feel ok about. … Where does this problem with me actually lie? I’m guessing this is an Anti-Semitic thing. Its because it has to do with Judaism, Messianic and Hebrew Roots stuff. No Christian wants to hear that their Messiah was a Hebrew Jew right?”
“…nor does scripture teach that the other Nations are to have a separate law than Israel. … If a person wants to bring an offering to the Lord than they must abide by the rules of how to do it. There is a way to come before the Lord and it is the same for all of the human race.”
“Im not saying that Christianity is a complete lie. They do have truth but they also lack understanding in a lot of areas, but this is with any religion. [except for cattyjane’s]”
“Your posts are annoying me because you have absolutely no understanding of the stuff you are posting.”
A show of hands here of who thinks that a Christian says these things? And she wants us to start a dialogue on her twisting of Scripture? I was so right when I said, “But you just wait, Cattyjane will bounce Gal 3 off her friends and come back with an explanation that shows that the Law is still binding on Christians, she has already done that with Heb 3–4 and the sabbath, mark my words and wait for it.” Boy, was I right.
MC has just become the Cult Time Show, with CattyJane. Welcome to the evolution, people. This is going to be a long and confusing ride going forward for those Mormons who desperately need to here the True Gospel.
Ok I give up. Your twisting everything MistakenTestimony. Im done with you guys.
You asked what the GROUPS I participated in do. I told you. No where did I say in order to have salvation that we have to observe the feasts. I told you what the groups do. I don’t think that we have to observe the feasts to have salvation. I did not observe Sukkot this year and a few that I know came down hard on me for not doing it. I simply told them that if we were going to do it according to scripture we would have to be in Jerusalem to do it. They didn’t argue.
I have told you a million times that we do not earn our way into heaven. I am so sick of you coming back and telling me that I am in a cult. I can think for myself. Just because I have a bible study with a group who believe these are things they have to do does not mean that I believe that.
I believe the ten commandments are written on our hearts when we accept Yeshua as Messiah. We obey them because they are written on our hearts. God stated in the OT that he would do this.
By the way. I haven’t contacted anyone in these groups about our discussion here. So quit thinking I have a mob of people behind me contributing to this discussion. That is being a bit paranoid don’t you think?
No matter what Mistaken Testimony has completed his goal at making me the enemy here. Good job! Hope your happy with yourself. Im not contributing here anymore. Go ahead and make your posts about how im still in a cult and how horrible of a person I am. Talk about how my comments are just a distraction and add to confusion and take away from the purpose of this site. Accept no responsibility for you own actions of getting me to discuss this on this post or encouraging the dialogue. Make sure you wash your hands of this and walk away innocent.
Blessings to all of you.
All I did was repost what you’ve posted so far in this conversation, but I could have posted more. I ignored what you said about the Trinity because you claimed you were making progress. I also didn’t post what you said you were saying about LDS rather than Christians, even though you never mentioned the LDS. I gave you the benefit of the doubt just so I would be gracious. The hit I will take is saying that your friends were probably helping you but I had no proof.
1 Peter 3:15
In your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect.
Titus 3:10-11
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
2 Corinthians 2:5-8
Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him.
catty , why would say that I am mad at you ? I’ve never been mad at you . One of my pet peeves is that
the topic can so buried by rabbit trails , now I know that it is not easy to stay on topic for any of us at times but it still is something we should always be aware of . Clean hands ? My hands are clean , I’ve always treated you with respect .
You appear quite emotional nowadays . Please consider some rest and quiet time alone with God .
Take care .
cattyjane……………………………had provided a link to a website where she’s getting her information as I requested.
I did a cursory examination of what is promoted their and I knew immediately, from my perspective, there was a problem. First of all the site wouldn’t identify the “denomination” which was their orientation. See if you can pick-up the technique that’s used in order to not be up front with the reader.
“Since having a denominational name gives Satan something to attack and many Christians have the tendency to judge truth by denomination rather than the Word of God, we have chosen not to reveal denomination. This decision was made with much prayer and ultimately so this ministry could be more effective in spreading truth to the world.”
Yup it’s the old, Satan will attack if we tell you who we are. Pretty transparent and pretty lame. And also we judge truth by the Word of God and not some denomination. An appeal to the Bible as their source. That wouldn’t be so bad except people say that and then take off on some tangent that is there little distinctive.
Anyway, I kept digging through the website and it is what has become vintage cattyjane, and I found the name of a guy they are promoting. I did a quick google search and there it was. These folks are Seventh Day Adventists of some stripe.
This has been an excellent exercise in Christian apologetics from a couple of different points. One is, how do we deal with someone who has just come out of a cult and is very vulnerable. Secondly, being able to smoke out the source of the influence currently in the person’s life.
That’s all I’ll write about this now because I have to take the inside dogs on their morning trek and also feed the outside dogs.
We need to be in continual prayer for cattyjane.
their/there………………….I actually know the difference! I must have been distracted by the pressure I was feeling from the inside dogs to take them out! That’s taken care of, they’re fed and now they are laying on their dog beds in the man cave. Man’s best friends working on their morning nap.
Mike reminds me that we have to be incredibly understanding yet very firm with folks who have come out of groups like the LDS church and the Jehovah Witnesses. It’s a fine line we walk. I think it takes time for those who have left, to gather information, sift through it and come to conclusions. Those who have been indoctrinated by the LDS/JW groups have yet to develop the spiritual level to know when something is a couple of bubbles off of plumb. I know it takes time to be able to pull the tools out of the tool box which can help in the process of discerning what is being promoted.
Does the following sound like cattyjane?
“We also believe in teaching the Ten Commandments as Jesus informed us that He did not come to destroy the law and that we are not only to obey it but to TEACH it also. In Matthew Chapter 5 Jesus assures us that not even a stroke of the pen would pass from the law, let alone an entire Commandment.”
This statement comes right off of that website. It comes across to me as being very hard-core and vehement in promoting a particular point-of-view. It sounds/feels harsh to me. I like to focus on the love and mercy of God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
I suppose it may have to do with comfort level or tone, but I get a bad vibe from these folks that are influencing cattyjane’s thinking.
As I became interested in Christian apologetics way back when, a book that really helped me was “Kingdom of the Cults” by Dr. Walter Martin. The book not only provided a lot of very good information on various religious groups, but Dr. Martin had a systematic method for evaluating these groups. He’d look at their history, leaders and then the doctrine. He compared and contrasted the doctrine of the group with basic orthodox Christian beliefs.
Here’s a two minute 39 second clip of Walter Martin addressing a couple of SDA issues. I think the readers here will find it interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVHWGn3PM_o
@Falcon
Cute about the dogs. 🙂
I am not seventh day adventist, nor will I ever be. They have a modern day prophet and prophetess which I don’t agree with. In my mind it is no better than LDS. The day I posted that site was the first day I had ever looked at it. The pastor that I used to study with had talked about the same things on that page but I couldn’t remember the different titles the laws went under. I used it as a reference. I don’t study that website so I didn’t see that it was seventh day adventist.
So since you have criteria that my sources must come from, why don’t you just give me a list of approved denominations that I am allowed to reference. The problem is still going to be that they will disagree at some point on something. So how will I know who is right? Everyone always talks on here about the fundamentals of our faith. From what I have seen you guys consider these things to be that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, that he is the son of god and also part of the trinity so he is also God, that we are saved by faith through grace alone and not by works, and that he will return again to fully complete prophesy. Does seventh day adventist believe these things?
Falcon
You know, MRM should create a blog a side blog for LDS who have left the church and are trying to figure out what path to take. That way this distraction off topic wouldn’t happen. Why don’t you just email me unless you are against that. [email protected]
I checked an SDA website for a local church and they had a statement of beliefs page. Their fundamental beliefs are the same as everyone else who claims their church is Christian on this blog.
http://lascrucescentral22.adventistchurchconnect.org/article/30/about-our-church/what-seventh-day-adventists-believe
I understand their are points that some Christian churches would disagree with them on, but that is the same for all Christian churches. Catholics claim Christianity yet they pray to saints and claim Mary is part of the trinity. Church of Christ claims that baptism is essential and must be done in a Church of Christ church yet they are Christian. Either they are Christian based on the fundamentals or they are not Falcon. Which is it?
@Falcon
I have a post to you that is in jail.
@Sharon
Why don’t you make a separate link on this site that is for discussion with LDS members who have left the church and are now trying to find a place in religion. That way this distraction doesn’t happen. Just a suggestion. Because as soon as this discussion burns out I don’t think im going to be posting very often anymore, if at all. Mainly because I feel bad that this has taken the turn that it has. I wouldn’t be responding at all except that the accusations that are being made against me are not true.
Cattyjane said
Please! You made accusations against us, then get mad at us and blame us when we defend what we believe. MT posted a whole list of things you posted and said, and then you get mad at him like it’s his fault, even though it was everything You yourself posted.
You claimed like JS did, Christians churchs are liars and all wrong, yet if we sit by and say nothing, it’s like we agree, yet if we say something, you get mad, accuse us of being stupid and not listening.
I ask questions, you dont reply, I remind you about them, you get mad. You claim to back up everything with evidence, yet when asked to do so, you get mad.
If your really right in claiming I dont understand what your saying by my replies, then we have a problem since as I said before, Not one person here has ever come forward and said, Rick, Cattyjane is correct, you misunderstood what she wrote.
So either I’m not wrong, or people simply dont care enough to back you up, and then that makes them liars when they claim to care about you yet wont back you up.
So no offense, but stop playing the I’m being persecuted card.
cattyjane,
“……give me a list of approved denominations that I am allowed to reference.”
“…..they will disagree at some point on something. So how will I know who is right?”
OK, what you have to do is just listen and follow me. I will never lead you astray!
I’ll get serious now.
This is my hope for you. That you will get to the point where you can have enough broad knowledge of doctrine and history that you can say, “Oh, that’s where this is coming from.” I’m not trying to hold my approach up as a model but I’ve found a way to make things work for me. It’s taken years of study but after a while, as in my case, I can profile the stuff I come across. I also know where to go and look to find information. It’s a weird hobby I suppose but I find it stimulating and interesting.
Take the SDA for example. I know they had a “prophet” Ellen White who came up with some real odd views of the atonement. I also know they had as a founder a guy, Miller-first name escapes me, who set a date back in 1844 for Jesus to return. Well he didn’t and this guy had a lot of “splanin” to do. Here’s an interesting video from the John Ankeberg show with an SDA guy talking about the conflict he was having with his own SDA group. From an apologetic perspective, it’s very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnO8BfYqbbg
I found your reference to which denomination we’d approve of pretty funny. I’ve said before that I have no idea who belongs to what denomination here on this site. Everyone sticks to the basics. That’s why you aren’t going to get a sectarian argument going here. I have no clue if our participants believe in infant or adult baptism. I don’t know if they believe in a pre, mid or post tribulation view of Christ’s return. I don’t know if they believe in the manifestations of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit for today or if they are dispensationalists in their view point. I really couldn’t tell you where they come down on Calvin’s TULIP theology. I don’t know how they believe regrading what happens in the elements during communion. Do you get my drift?
So this is your assignment. Go and get a copy of Dr. Walter Martin’s book “The Kingdom of the Cults” and observe how he evaluates religious movements/sects and their doctrine. My take away from his book wasn’t just the information he provides about various groups, but his approach to assessing their history, leaders and doctrine. There are other Christian apologists who are as good but I just liked his approach.
cattyjane there isn’t anyone on this site who isn’t concerned about you.
“Why don’t you make a separate link on this site that is for discussion with LDS members who have left the church and are now trying to find a place in religion. That way this distraction doesn’t happen. “
Go to exmormon.org if you want to discuss every religion under the sun or no religion on an equal footing after leaving Mormonism. This is a Christianministry here for those leaving the LDS cult. Would a Christian want this or would a wolf in sheep’s clothing want this?
I feel as though every time I give you an inch you take a mile, but I will do it again in hopes that we can move forward.
Earlier on in this conversation you said that the only thing that matters is that you can defend yourself from the Scriptures. That, my dear, is not the only thing that matters, you must be able to defend yourself “correctly” from the Scriptures, too. That’s what matters and that is a world of difference from what you said. I mean, a JW could come on here who doesn’t read D&C, BoM, PoGP, or JST and argue purely from the bible a defense of his faith. Would that make him right? Would that be the only thing that mattered? No, not at all.
Now, if a JW came here and threw down all the verses for argument X and told us we didn’t understand what we were talking about, would you consider him to open minded and wanting to learn the truth? I wouldn’t, I would view him as divisive and a person looking for a fight. But if a JW came here with the attitude of “this is what my support group is telling me, but I’m not entirely sure that they are right,” would that person have an open minded approach or would they be argumentative? So let me ask you, what has been your approach, have you been as open minded as you claimed or have you been quite confident and divisive?
Jaxi, I would have never known that she were Eastern Orthodox had she not said so. Falcon, says he goes to a Lutheran church, but I have not heard anything come out of his mouth that throws a Lutheran or a Baptist flag, I have no idea what he is. The only reason I mentioned that I was a Lutheran was because MakeItShine’s husband. I don’t just throw that out for the sake of throwing it out, it has to be relevant to the conversation. Rick B, MJP, even Bill and Eric, I have no idea what denominations that they are involved with. But I know enough from what they say here that I could trust them theologically with some of the most precious people in my life if I had to. That says a lot, it really does.
However, you have said many things here that would make me very uncomfortable to have you in a room alone with my mother discussing theology. The point is, we know Christian when we hear it and we know Unchristian when we hear it. I don’t absolutely agree with everything that is said here, and that’s fine. But I respect that this is an evangelical Protestant leaning ministry here targeted towards LDS leaving their religion. If everytime I heard something I disagreed with and interjected and started a fight, how would that help anybody? Rarely do I disagree with something here from a true Christian, and I won’t disagree publicly unless it’s flat out heretical. You on the other hand, based on your confident theological assertions thus far, I could not image you having anymore than just a superficial agreement with some things here and outright disagreement with others. The divide is very wide between you and us, and that’s why it has been so important for this conversation to happen so that you could see how far the divide is for yourself.
I can speak for all of us when I say, we just want you to remove yourself from your current support group and get plugged into any solid Christian church. Be as open minded as you claim. Ask more questions than assertions you make. You should be leery and untrusting of us. Good, you should be coming out of Mormonism. But why turn around and throw all your trust toward your support group, you should be just as weary of them as you are of us. Ask questions, my dear. Be weary of everybody right now, not just us. You now understand how far the divide is between us. That right there is great news.
And respect that this is an evangelical Protestant leaning organization trying to reach Mormons. If someone says something about being free in Christ from all the LDS rules by faith alone, then don’t argue about faith and works. Out of respect, at least support what Bill and Eric are doing here. And if you find the divide is just too great and you find yourself disagreeing all the time, then it probably would be good for you to leave, at the very least out of respect for them. But none of us would be satisfied with you just having a superficial agreement with us and the ability to bite your tongue. No, we want you, Cattyjane, to be in full agreement with us so the barrier can be removed and so we can rejoice together, as brothers and sisters, together in truth.
Trust no one, but at the same time trust everyone, reasonably for both. You’re still fresh out of the LDS cult, I think that now you should just be in a learning mode. There is absolutely NO shame in admitting that right now, and we would love to walk with you through it.
I have never had a problem or issue with telling people where I go to church.
So for anyone interested I go to Calvary Chapel In Saint Paul MN. The web address is http://www.ccsaintpaul.org
People can listen to teachings from my church on line, read the church’s statement of faith, and learn many others things about what we believe. We are a NON-Denominational Church.
Also as you can click on my name, here is my website, http://www.fightingfortruth.com
As I said before, I have a live radio show from 3-4 pm central time every Saturday. As of this writing, my show will be aired live in 30 minutes, but it is rebroadcast through out the week and podcasts are posted the next day. Currant topic, Islam.
I just posted a topic about what church I go to and a link to my church, it went to Mod Jail, so when bail is posted, people can see where I go to church.
CattyJane said to Falcon
While I cannot speak for Falcon, Let me state the most Obvious here, denominations are man made, you wont find them in the Bible. So for some one that claims were following man made traditions, Christmas, easter, other Holidays Etc, let me remind people denominations also are man made.
Now as Falcon keeps saying, we believers all agree on some Basics thats what sets us apart from Cults. Cults deny the basics, Like Jesus is God (Trinity).
I want to point out that there are some things I would call, In house Debate, but wont effect our salvation and it is these minor issues that have caused the creation of denominations.
Some claim you cannot drink beer, or “Spirits”. So claim women can only wear dresses not pants or jeans. Some claim we cannot dance. others feel women cannot be pastors, things like that. Just something to think about.
rick,
I’ve been wondering what any LDS folks who are reading this thread might think of the discussion. Quite frankly, there are people who can “handle” such a discussion and others that can’t. Cult leaders prey on people who have low tolerance for ambiguity. The low tolerance for ambiguity folks want black-and-white answers, no nuanced or speculative discussion. It’s a concrete sequential atmosphere and belief system they desire.
Joseph Smith came along and not only claimed to have answers but he claimed all sort of spirit visitations with which to bring authority to what he taught. Here, however, was the genius of Smith. He took the idea of “continuous revelation” and was able to use it to make significant changes in his revelations as he pleased. Think of it. He did this with something as fundamental as the doctrine of the nature of God. He started out with a rather conventional point-of-view and ended-up with multiple gods and men morphing into gods.
I’ve been hitting my major theme for probably five years on this blog. That theme is to have people get sound on the basics. First of all they need to “know” what the fundamental doctrines of orthodox Christianity are. Then they need to develop an “understanding” of how the delineation of these doctrines came about in the early Church. Then they need to “apply” what they have come to know and understand about the basic doctrines to shape their Christian witness. At this point, folks have a solid foundation and are not likely to get swept into some group with aberrant or heretical doctrine.
I think one of the most difficult things for a Mormon to overcome is this idea that there is “one true church” that has all of the answers. Sorry folks, but it doesn’t work that way.
There is One True God and one true Gospel message He revealed. There’s a reason why the apostle Paul wrote to a group of believers that he purposed, while among them, to preach only Christ and Him crucified.
It’s a simple message. It isn’t meant to be complicated. It’s basically……For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that who-so-ever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
When Christians talk about having a “personal relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ, it means that we have come to know Him. That’s the starting point.
Going to man made temples performing man made rituals in the hope that this system will lead to a man becoming a god will lead to spiritual destruction.
I think the consensus with most protestant and eastern o. Is that we have the foundation layed out from pretty early on and that there are no new doctrines. Now it’s all about coming to know Christ and the main differences are just figuring out how to best do this. So does a certain form of worship or a certain practice or belief lead to to him or away from him. These are the questions I am now asking. Maybe there’s no uniform answer and something that leads one person closer might lead another farther depending on where they are in life, how it’s presented and how they approach it.
I do wish Jaxi were still here. When I came across this site I didn’t know what MRM was, but I browsed through a couple of old posts and saw some of her replies. I could see that we spoke the same language so was kind of hoping to converse with her a little. I did end up finding some podcasts the other day that I think will give me the answers to some questions I had though so I’m going to work my way through those now.
makeitshine , said, ” Now it’s all about coming to know Christ and the main differences are just figuring out how to best do this .”
You’re right , for the christian it it’s all about coming to know Jesus , know Him personally , not just know about Him . There really is no differences in how a such a relationship commences because it’s like a relationship that any two persons experience between each other . It starts with communication . A one on one interaction with our risen Savior through prayer is at the heart of knowing Jesus for those who have discovered who He is and thus bow before Him in surrender . He is the way to the Father , the way to a right relationship with the Father . God accepts us when we honor His Son as we honor Him , we can thus worship the Father and be received by Him because we have come His way , that what Jn 14:6 is all about . This is God’s arrangement . We get to experience a intimate fellowship with both the Father and the Son –1Cor 1:9 as we walk life’s road , and the Holy Spirit helps us be victorious over the distractions along the way .
Mormons constantly are learning about their religion , they have a endless supply of publications to read to learn about what the scriptures teach etc . They talk about ” following Christ ” and that means for them to do good works for Him , to obey His commands ( which means to do whatever Mormon leaders tell them to do ) , but through all this learning , and doing , they feel they have a “relationship ” with Him . The Mormon system places LDS in a similar position that Jesus warned some Jewish leaders of in Jn 5:39-40 . When Jesus said ” come to me” it means just that , come directly to Him person to person . Today His words mean the same but now we meet Him personally by praying to Him . We get to exalt His name , to verbally praise Him , to thank Him . This is the Father’s arrangement now . It pleases Him to have it so and our worship of Him is made full by this .
Sadly , Mormons have been taught by their leaders that prayer to Jesus is not appropriate , only the Father is to be prayed to . So do Mormons have a personal relationship with Jesus ? The answer would be no , on two counts . First , their leaders have drifted from the truth about who Jesus is and taught a false view of Him ( He’s the spirit brother of Satan , the sexually produced first child of a male God and female Goddess in heaven ) , that means this Jesus is a another Jesus ( 2C0r 11:4 ) andtherefore can’t actually save anyone . Second , as I mentioned above , according to their leaders Mormons are counseled not to pray to Jesus , only the Father , hence a to call a relationship with Jesus ” personal ” and yet not spend time daily talking with Him is to rob the term ” personal ” of it’s meaning . Knowing Jesus is more than doing things the scriptures say are good deeds , deeds He would be pleased to have people do etc . If Mormons believe their leaders teaching about Jesus are
true , then they are not in line with the scriptures concerning Jesus or a relationship with Him .
When I share with Mormons and Jw’s about Jesus , I always bring up Matt 11:28 , and start from there . Our prayer for Mormons is that they will come to see that according to the New Testament salvation is in a person , Jesus alone , not secret temple rituals . Mormons simply don’t need Mormonism , it’s come to late on the scene . Jesus and the saving gospel was preached by His apostles in the New Testament , may the Mormon people read the N.T. for themselves and seek the Jesus it reveals . Good things can happen .
You mentioned Jaxi . She was a blessing to have here .
MIS
“So does a certain form of worship or a certain practice or belief lead to to him or away from him.”
Well you list three things; 1. form of worship 2. practice 3. belief.
Those are three distinct things.
Worship………..pretty open as far as I’m concerned. Read First Corinthians 12 & 14 to see what Paul says about that. I have a Christian History issue here that deals specifically with the early Church and worship. It’s very interesting. I don’t think there’s a specific form that’s prescribed. I use to go to the Latin Mass everyday in elementary school. Now I go to an upbeat modern worship service at a non-liturgical Lutheran church. I’m occasionally called upon to preach at a traditional Liturgical Lutheran church. I have my preference but if people focus on the liturgy and what it means it can be very meaningful.
Practice………………don’t know exactly what you are getting at here. As a Catholic, I was heavy into “practice”. The practice were the various sacraments of the Church. A person is covered from birth to death.
Belief………………..easy as far as I’m concerned. You know I’m a basic orthodox doctrine guy. The rest I don’t get too concerned about.
This is audio on YouTube but it’s classic Dr. Walter Martin on the topic “Who is Jesus?” He’s addressing JWs belief but the essence of the message is orthodox Christianity regarding the person of Jesus Christ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgS7xkHRkCs