The Mormon Church is asking its members to answer an online questionnaire about temple garments in order to assist the Church in “providing for the needs of members worldwide.” The questions focus on things like garment fit, style, and fabric. According to Fox13 News, “[Church] Officials are looking for changes or improvements that could be made.”
In the old days, Mormons believed that every aspect of the design of temple garments was revealed to Joseph Smith via revelation from God. As such, they could not be changed or altered. In his book, The Mysteries of Godliness, author David John Buerger includes the following account describing the construction of the very first Mormon temple garment:
“It was while they were living in Nauvoo that the Prophet came to my mother, who was a seamstress by trade, and told her that he had seen the angel Moroni with the garments on, and asked her to assist him in cutting out the garments. They spread unbleached muslin out on the table and he told her how to cut it out. She had to cut the third pair, however, before he said it was satisfactory.” (The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship, 142)
Early Mormon apostles Heber C. Kimball and George A. Smith, and member of the First Presidency Frederick G. Williams, all testified that Jesus Himself was wearing a temple garment when He allegedly appeared to Joseph Smith in the Kirtland Temple in 1836 (ibid., 144-145).
These early temple garments differed substantially from what Mormons wear today, though they carried the same marks of square, compass, etc. In 1883 Zebedee Coltrin, a General Authority in the Mormon Church, was asked “ ‘about the kind of clothing the Father ha[d] on’ at the Kirtland temple epiphany.” John Taylor related Mr. Coltrin’s reply:
“He said it was the pattern of the garment given to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and it all had a sacred meaning. The collar: My yoke is easy and my burden is light. (Crown of the Priesthood) the strings on each side have double meaning, the strings being long enough to tie in a neat double bow knot, representing the Trinity; the double bow knots the marriage covenant between man and wife. The Compass: a guide to the wearer as the North Star is a guide in the night to those who do not know the way they should go. The Square: representing the justice and fairness of our Heavenly Father, that we will receive all the good that is coming to us or all that we earn, on a square deal; the navel mark: meaning strength in the navel and marrow in the bones. The Knee Mark: representing that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. The whole garment to be a covering and a protection from the enemy. The sleeves reaching to the wrist, and the legs to the ankles. This pattern was given to Joseph Smith by two heavenly beings.” (The Mysteries of Godliness, 145-146)
Even into the 20th century Mormons were told that the design of temple garments came directly from heaven:
“The garments worn by those who receive endowments must be white and of the approved pattern. They must not be altered and mutilated and are to be worn as intended, down to the wrist and ankle, and around the neck. Admission to the temple will be refused those who do not comply with these requirements. The Saints should know that the pattern of endowment garments was revealed from heaven, and the blessings promised in connection with wearing them will not be realized if any unauthorized change is made in their form or in the manner of wearing them” (Joseph F. Smith, “Temple Instructions to the Bishops,” Messages of the First Presidency 5:110. Quoted in Buerger from Improvement Era, June 1916).
In 1923 Mormon Church leadership authorized some modifications to the temple garment pattern, prompted by the preferences of Church members. The directive from the First Presidency noted,
“It may be observed that no fixed pattern of Temple garment has ever been given, and that the present style of garment differs very materially from that in use in the early history of the Church, at which time a garment without collar and with buttons was frequently used.” (The Mysteries of Godliness, 150)
At the time of these modifications, the Salt Lake Tribune reported that younger members of the Church were happy about the changes, while many among the “older membership…look upon any deviation from the old order as a departure from what they had always regarded as an inviolable rule” (Salt Lake Tribune, June 4, 1923, quoted in The Mysteries of Godliness, 151).
Thirteen years later the temple committee recommended another round of changes feeling “sure that such a modification will greatly please many good women throughout the Church” (The Mysteries of Godliness, 153).
Changes to the “authorized pattern” of the garments have continued over the years. The current online questionnaire, and the changes that will likely result from it, are probably not tremendously significant to today’s Mormons; Joseph Smith’s teaching that the garments were patterned after those worn by angels and the Savior Himself has long-ago been discarded. Nevertheless, it will be interesting to see to what degree the Church is willing to alter the current pattern of its sacred temple clothing in order to “greatly please” temple-garment-wearing Mormons. And we will see it — assuming the Church continues its recent efforts toward greater openness and updates its Sacred Temple Clothing video to reflect any new changes.
I heard about this survey recently. I’ve always wondered about garments being changed from wrist to ankle to anything less and what that means for “restoration”, “sacred”temple ceremonies, and again who are the real prophets in the LDS church. It looks like the members reveal the truth and the truth just gets smaller and smaller and more and more comfortable and convenient.
The temple garment has undergone major changes since the original versions were issued, and some senior members of the Church leadership objected to the changes. President Joseph Fielding Smith, for example, insisted that the original versions carried significant and exclusive blessings and he refused to wear the newer versions. He continued to wear the long-sleeved, ankle length version with a collar and string ties from neck to crotch.
I know this because I went on my mission in the 1960’s with an elder who had done yard work for President Smith’s widow to earn money for his upcoming mission. They grew close and one day she called him in and observed that he was a fine young man and slight in build like her departed husband. She told him she had saved her husband’s garments and felt that her husband would like to see them put to good use on a righteous missionary, rather than sit around in a drawer. She offered them to him and he readily accepted.
He wore President Smith’s garments in the mission home and, as far as I know, for his whole mission. He may have worn them after his mission, too, for all I know. He felt honored to do so.
The rest of us discussed if we would have made the same choice, were it offered to us, and as I recall about a fourth of our small group said they would have done the same thing. The rest of us were still having difficulty getting used to the one-piece short-sleeved temple garments we had just bought in the Relief Society store in the basement of the Salt Lake Temple, and we were experiencing “shock and awe” at the new one-piece underwear we were expected to wear for the rest of our lives (except when exercising), not least due to the fact that the all-cotton versions we had purchased shrank about fourteen inches in the dryer. If someone had conducted this survey back then, we would have been delighted to participate.
Here’s the deal. Mormonism is about change i.e. progressive revelation. I certainly hope that these LDS folks pray for guidance before they answer the survey. They say that clothes make the man. I don’t know about temple garments. If they were divinely given and if Jesus and the angels wore the original, I don’t think that even progressive styling could be an excuse for changing.
Aren’t the LDS folks the ones who have sort of a strict dress code for church attendance? If I remember right it’s the missionary look. Perhaps that would be another thing to survey about; missionary attire?
Remember, for top-down organizations, it’s all about how things look on the outside.
CORRECTION: In the interest of accuracy, I need to make a correction. I don’t want to end up like NBC’s Brian Williams and get banned from Mormon Coffee for six months.
I said, above, that back in the 1960’s the new missionaries purchased their temple garments in the basement of the Salt Lake Temple. Not so! I think we hiked around the block to buy them in the Relief Society Distribution Center. (I do so hope that buying my first temple garments won’t turn out like the First Vision with about six different and conflicting accounts…)
buff, as long as it is not like a fisherman’s tale of the ever growing fish, I think you’re OK.
buff……………….you’re OUT OF HERE!!!
BTW….is there much of a market for used temple garments? Just think of all the folks who are leaving. They need to do something with these garments.
And….help me out here. We have the sacred undergarments and then we have temple garments too? The temple garments are entirely different aren’t they. I’ve seen pictures of temple garments and they have baker’s hats, right?
Not to push the limits of propriety here, but I was reading a post by a woman who had left the LDS church but hadn’t really announced it. She talked about how her grandmother would do the “LDS feel-up”. This was grandma hugging her and feeling up and down her body to determine if the woman was wearing the sacred undergarment. Gram was trying to be inconspicuous of course(?).
I think that’s a little inappropriate but then I’ve never been LDS.
Dear Falcon:
You are correct that there are technically two kinds of temple garments: those worn every day and those placed over the first set when one gets inside the temple to do ordnance (ordinance?) work.
And as for grandma hugging her granddaughter and doing the “LDS feel-up” to see if she was still active in the Church and wearing her garments, that’s nothing. When I was a freshman at BYU, the coeds didn’t want to be wasting any time dating a guy who wasn’t a returned missionary, so they developed their own version of the “LDS feel-up”: while sitting with a guy they would let their hand drop to his knee and feel (back then, about an inch above the knee) for the hem of his garments. This was back in the 60’s way before Jockey came up with thigh-length jockey shorts or compression shorts, so their ploy worked. Us freshmen who hadn’t gone on missions and earned the right to wear garms were out of luck. As they said back then, BYU coeds weren’t studying to get their B.S. or M.S. degrees. They only wanted their MRS. degree. Even today, BYU is notorious for having an incredibly high dropout rate of women who only wanted a returned missionary husband.
So I guess the so-called “LDS feel-up” you were talking about really works….
buff
What’s the deal with a returning MM being someone the gals want to marry? Is it because they have gone through the prerequisite temple rituals? That way they’re all qualified up; priesthood authority and all of that? So the LDS female knows she’s got a man who will do the work on the way to godhood, resurrect her from the dead?
Yo, Falcon:
Thou art correct, my brother. Mormon girls are sent to BYU by their parents with the sole objective of finding a good LDS priesthood bearer who will marry them and lead them to the top glory of the Celestial Kingdom. It’s a status thing with Mormon families to marry off all their daughters to good, wholesome returned missionaries. And you may find this difficult to believe, but Mormon parents also encourage those same daughters to attend BYU, get married in the temple as soon as possible to a returned missionary, drop out of college immediately, and produce little Mormons. And BYU administrators encourage this “dropout program.”
After all, Mormon leadership runs BYU, and they want its young male priesthood holders to quickly settle down with good wives, make family commitments, and procreate. And as for all those female dropouts, Mormon leaders have said time and again that a women’s greatest role — read that “only role” — in the Church is to be a “mother in Zion” and produce children born into the covenant.
buff
I was interested in this RM radar program by the LDS gals so I found a blog that was discussing it. The vibe I was getting was that a lot of fine young eligible LDS boys are being over-looked because they aren’t RMs. The girls were promoting these guys, I guess, as wholesome, up-standing prospects and not the left-overs.
Are the young men looking for LDS girls that have served a mission? I doubt it! Interestingly enough, the word is that about half of returning missionaries go inactive in the LDS church within five years. That makes for a lot of disappointed women I’d guess.
Falcon —
You asked, “Are the young men looking for LDS girls that have served a mission?” As a general rule, no. Sister missionaries, as they are now called, were considered too intelligent and self-confident to make good wives. Most Mormon men shunned them. And the Mormon Church itself discouraged women from going on missions. Still does. The Church encourages young women to get married quickly and have babies instead. The Church historically only sent young women on missions if it became obvious over the years that those women were not marriageable for some reason. The Church still requires young women to wait a few years beyond the men’s traditional missionary age before they can even ask to go on a mission, just to see if they can finally get married instead.
And you mentioned that it seems “a lot of fine young eligible LDS boys are being over-looked because they aren’t RMs” and that the “girls were promoting these guys, I guess, as wholesome, up-standing prospects and not the left-overs.” I would suspect that these are girls who couldn’t (or wouldn’t) find a nice returned missionary for themselves and are defending their boyfriends. They can protest as much as they want, but the Church and its upstanding members still consider most of those boys as “leftovers.” Sure, there are exceptions, but not many.
Although the Church claims to be a very welcoming society, it still tends to ostracize those who aren’t married in the temple, wearing garments, and bearing children. This makes the Mormon Church a slightly unfriendly place for older singles, male or female. And the Church has repeatedly told young males — returned missionaries included — that, as LDS Prophet Brigham Young allegedly warned, “any unmarried man over the age of 25 is a menace to the community.” http://mormonmonsters.blogspot.com/2009/09/25-year-old-men-menace-to-society.html
I don’t want to diver the discussion too much, but there is one thing that I find interesting about missions and missionaries:
is the process of who goes where and why.
Is there a heirarchy? Is it better to go to Japan or Australia than it is to go to some small town about five hours from Salt Lake City?
So it looks like what is valued in the LDS culture is a garment wearing RM.
I’ve been under the impression that the LDS church culture is one of privilege and status; at least in some areas. When the dream-boat starts making noises that maybe he isn’t so into the program and the couple are already married, it causes a major amount of trouble and stress often ending in divorce.
I don’t know if they do it any more, but I’ve heard that in the old days the LDS church would rescue the women married to a questioner, haul her back to her home area, and before you can say Jack Mormon they have her divorced and remarried.
This is probably a urban legend but these stories often have an element of truth.
MJP —
Good question. Church leaders in Salt lake City have said that they decide who goes where on their missions, by direct revelation from God. If so, God has evidently looked favorably on family wealth and connections, education, and language skills. In the 1960s and 1970s, missionaries were assigned to expensive locales like New York City if their parents could afford to support them there. Now, however, all parents pay the same amount to the Church, regardless of the locale, so money isn’t so much a factor. (Interestingly, parents now send their checks to the Church, not to the missionaries, so that the parents can deduct those amounts on their taxes as donations to the Church.)
And yes, there has always been a “hierarchy,” based mostly on education and language skills. The smartest missionaries historically are sent to countries with difficult languages, mostly in the Far East, like Japan and Korea. Those on the next step down the intellectual ladder are sent to Europe, again based on language skills. South America is the next step down, although not including Mexico for some reason we never figured out. Nevertheless, it always seemed that the missionaries sent to Mexico were not nearly as educated as the missionaries sent to South America. Same with those sent to England.
All of this seemed education-related, especially the presumed ability to pick up a foreign language. Related to this phenomenon was the almost universal disappointment of parents whose sons were sent to missions in the United States. It was like a slap in the face from the Church, but the Church obviously had an interest in hoping the selected missionaries would be successful in learning the language.
There are other factors, of course, quite unrelated to a potential missionary candidate’s language skills. For example, physical or mental health can dictate that a missionary be sent to a locale with close hospital support. A candidate’s heritage or family ties can also be influential. As the Church explains it, God looks at many factors in making His decision and communicating it to the missionary committee.
Falcon —
You mentioned, “I’ve heard that in the old days the LDS church would rescue the women married to a questioner, haul her back to her home area, and before you can say Jack Mormon they have her divorced and remarried. This is probably a urban legend but these stories often have an element of truth.”
I wish it were an urban legend. Not to get too personal about this, but when I manifested doubts and was excommunicated several years ago, my wife filed for divorce and the Church sent several ward members over to pack her and the children, all her belongings and almost all our furniture into a moving van off to her family out west. Before I could call my lawyer they were gone. The local Church leaders out there tried to help her re-marry but last I heard she hadn’t found an appropriately devout priesthood holder. Granted, that’s a simplified version of the story, but Mormon leaders have historically followed that procedure.
historybuff,
Thanks for relating your experiences . Would you care to share your personal story with us ?
Thanks for the insight on that buff. So, it is a status thing to an extent, but really more a practical application of ability to adjust and learn new languages.
buff
Very interesting. Thank you for your contribution. Don’t hesitate to share your personal story. It helps us long timers in developing understanding of those who are posting. Since “rick” isn’t posting as regularly as he used to, I guess I’m the senior citizen here. I think I’ve been contributing about five years. We use to get a lot of LDS folks showing up, but they don’t post much any more. In the early days the mods had quite a task keeping things “civil”.
The funny thing is that we’d get these Mormons showing up telling us we didn’t know what we were talking about. Well as the evidence mounted and they’d paint themselves in the corner they’d get frustrated, bear their testimony and leave. A few had to be given the boot out the blog door.
None-the-less, it seems that we get a lot of former Mormons posting here these days which is good.
The Mormon hierarchy asking rank and file members to answer a survey to get their input on the temple garment ? Mormon women , especially, struggling with the fit or fabric of these undergarments ever since they were introduced as a sacred garment of Mormonism such that these garments have had to undergo revisions , altering , to please the wearer . All this points to Mormonism being a man made religious organization , and not what it claims to be — the original church of Jesus restored . This doctrine ( wearing a temple garment ) like the rest of the temple endowment ritual was introduced without Jesus’ approval , and as such has nothing to do with identifying His true or most loyal worshipers .
It was because of the shock that many new converts witnessed in the Mormon endowment ceremony that slowly pushed Mormon leadership to change parts of it in 1990 . Although this will denied by these men at the top the fact that they poll their followers about some of their important practices / beliefs makes it reasonable to believe that Mormon leadership are little different than secular corporate executives in making decisions based on polls or surveys to their employees . Helps keep unity etc .
People can join organizations that have secret rituals and such . However , Mormon leaders introduced their temple and it’s secret rituals to be a vital part of the true gospel of Jesus Christ , and that claim is just plain false . The sincere people who join the Mormon church have been detoured from the truth by latter days counterfeit prophets which Jesus said would come — Matt 24:11 .
We pray for the Mormon people to dismiss their leaders . Being forgiven , and receiving the gift of eternal life is’nt found by following Mormon prophets and their gospel . Jesus is the answer all LDS are looking for : a personal intimate relationship with the Jesus . The Bible contains this information
As you’ve all mentioned at one time or another, showing Mormons that their church is not what it claims to be is only part of the equation. A wise Christian must also:
(1) extend the hand of friendship and let them know they will not be alone if they walk away from the Mormon Church; and
(2) provide them with a reasonable and practical alternative. This needn’t be another church, at least not immediately. Maybe it will be a book club, or a “movie night”, hiking, golf, or trap shooting. Anything will be fine if you are there with them, being a friend and helping them cope with withdrawal pains. And there will definitely be withdrawal pains. Remember that the Mormon Church has filled every minute of their day with meetings and activities. Their friends and maybe their families are all Mormon. It’s like an addiction, and you need to provide them with support and an alternative. If they’re not ready for your brand of religion yet, then just be a friend, but be there with alternate activities they’ll enjoy.
historybuff,
Thanks for your comment . I totally agree with what you said about being a friend to ex Mormons , that point can not be stressed enough . I personally believe that being a friend to those who are still active members of the Mormon church is also important and this will not end on my part even if they never leave the Mormon church . Mormons deserve my respect .
I would be remiss if I did not explain to my ex Mormon friend that there is a big difference between being out of the Mormon church with being someone who is free spiritually — having a saving relationship with God . It’s great that someone leaves Mormonism , but it’s total victory when they come to trust Jesus alone to be accepted by God . I understand that this transition can take a long time for some ex Mormons to understand that fact , so I must have a lot of patience and give them their space etc . Ex Mormons can have a lot of emotional issues to deal with , they can have trust issues . We here try to steer them to Jesus and help them understand that He is not the problem , He is the answer for healing those bruised because they were fooled by false prophets , whom He warned would come in the latter days . Ex Mormons don’t have to join any religious organization , or trust any religious preacher . It’s Jesus in whom they can trust , and in whom will save them to the uttermost when they call upon Him personally and ask . He will be the ultimate friend to them .
The simplicity of this is something that some ex Mormons may not grasp because of Mormonism’s conditioning . But it is the answer nevertheless .
Thanks again for what you shared .
@historybuff
Though I’m no fan of Pres. Brigham Young in the least, I think your quote on “menace to society” is really a misquote. The link you’ve provided unequivocally describes the source of that statement as Apostle George Q. Cannon, and no recorded source actually lists Pres. Young as the source.
I’m in agreement that the culture of LDS promotes discrimination against unmarried men above 24.
I wonder if Grindael can list something more substantial.
OK so the falcon is back to one of the hobby horses he rides. In this situation Mormons would have to claim that the apostles and early disciples of Jesus and by extension probably the Jews wore the same garments in the first century that Mormons wear. One form of these garments were worn everyday under their regular clothes and then another form of garments were worn in Christian temples.
If Mormonism is the restoration of the original gospel then this is true, right?
Mormonism just doesn’t stand-up to scrutiny. That’s why the testimony as to the truth of the Mormon gospel is based on feelings.
I have to admit to having a bit of a chuckle at the singleness issue.
Being single and over 24/25 , not being raised in Zion, not having a BYU qualification and being the only LDS in my family in Britain my ” status ” for want of a better word is as low as it can get I reckon. So my future in the LDS was always under fire from the get go as the church obsesses over its youth to the point where everyone else gets forgotten.
But no matter…
1 Corinthians 7:8
I am in good company.
As for the Garments. I honestly mean no disrespect, but I am little too old to be dictated to on what underwear to put on in the morning.
rhythm
The deal with the underwear is directly related to the amount of control the LDS Mormon sect can exert on it’s membership. To be fair, there are other religions that require certain type of apparel be worn by the membership. It’s a “buy-in” deal. The more a person’s diet, clothing and participation in rituals can be dictated, the more the individual member is assimilated into the group. And the less likely they are to leave the group or give the leaders any trouble.
We have a lot of Amish and Mennonites living in our geographic area. They are very legalistic and strict about all aspects of a members life. It’s funny, I wouldn’t call them a cult though. I don’t even know why I’d make the exception with them.
I don’t know of any outreach to the Amish. I guess it’s because these various sects have doctrine that’s at least some where in the ball park of normative Christianity.
I think what makes Mormonism unique comes down to Joseph Smith and the claim that he’s the prophet of the restoration and new dispensation.
Falcon that is very true, I’ve never once had a bad encounter with an Amish person. Like you say the Amish can point to a page in the Bible and at least explain their position whereas the Mormons it’s more a long the lines ” because Joseph Smith said so ”
Knew a man who got a wooden spiral staircase built in his home by an Amish guy, a fine craftsman and took great care and pride in his working with Gods materials. Also, don’t the Amish let their youth enter the world at a certain age but should they come back then it’s full metal Amish from there on out ?
I think Falcon we look at the Amish and just see honest to God Christians living simply and trying their best… whereas the LDS build unnecessary temples and fancy themselves Gods in Embryo… Mormons are in the world and the Amish are out of it.
Agreed on the religious garments of other religions… but I find it weird that its Underwear of all things, that LDS don’t even have the luxury of picking their own underwear. Like I said before it just reminds me of being a child..
By the way, how many active TBM’s know what the symbols on the garments mean ?
Rhythm
It’s called “rumspringa”, loosely translated means “time of running around”. Amish communities vary regarding whether this is part of the culture and if it is how far they let the teenagers go. Once this time is over, the young people are expected to get baptized and become settled members of the community. If you don’t join-up and leave, the shunning can be very severe. Anyone who leaves is spiritually lost.
You may like this short video. I used it in a college course I was teaching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WD1SFk-IBU
When I read what Sharon posted in this thread I can’t help feeling sorry for the Mormon people . They are sincere people who are striving to know and follow God ‘s will , but sadly they have been detoured by men who have cleverly convinced them they have heard from Jesus and have His exclusive appointment and supervision to teach His gospel of salvation . What Mormon leaders have introduced as being necessary to be accepted by God and qualify for eternal life are teachings that LDS have been led to believe are accurate and worthy to be accepted , and what Mormon leaders have believed and taught about the temple and temple rituals garner the greatest trust by rank and file LDS .
The Mormon people should understand that following those who claim to be prophets in these latter days is a very serious matter ( Matt 24:11 ) and sadly it appears that few Mormons have actually put their prophets to the test , especially the one recommended by the apostle John ( 1Jn 4:1) . As a result Mormon leaders can introduce practically any teaching they want to and rank and file member will simply accept it and / or practice it . The Mormon temple endowment ceremony is a good example
of how Mormons have been fooled by their leaders into believing error disguised as ” the gospel of Jesus Christ ” . Paul had a word about this type of thing — Gal 1:8
One of the main points that Mormon leaders have accused other churches and their leaders of is that of being guilty of feeding their flocks unstable teachings , such vacillating reveals confusion , and thus these non Mormons can’t be trusted as consistent reliable guides . In fact Mormon leaders have even used Paul’s warning in Gal 1:8 against non Mormon churches ! However the fact of the matter is that Mormon leaders have simply been the pot calling the kettle black . A examination of their preaching track record reveals this verdict . Whether it’s the Mormon sacred undergarment or ordinances , these have all been examples of how Mormon leaders can’t make up their minds about their serious beliefs . Being wishy washy about ” sacred ” things for so long is not a good sign , but it does makes it easier for conscientious LDS to see that though their leaders are well meaning , they have only created a man made religious organization , not the one and only place where salvation
can be found which they have claimed .
Whereas Mormon temple undergarment will not identify one as accepted by God , there is a garment , a robe that will so identify a person as being completely forgiven and gaining the gift of eternal life .
That garment is the spotless robe of righteousness which God puts on those who He has pardoned ,
this is the righteousness of Jesus , and it merits not merely resurrection , but eternal life with God .
The Father freely credits the perfect righteousness of Jesus to us . He puts us ” in Christ” . Nothing we have , nothing we can do or offer can make sinners worthy to receive such a priceless treasure it can only be received as a completely undeserved gift , that’s how God offers it . Jesus’ righteousness replaces our unrighteousness , His shed blood personally for us makes us clean enough to enter God’s home above . That’s the garment / robe that identifies who are worthy and have eternal life . It all comes by bowing before Jesus , admitting guilt then asking Him for pardon — Rom 3:23 ; 5:8; 6:23 ; 10:9-13 . That’s the “way” .
No Mormon temple ritual or garment required .
See Isa 61: 10 with Phil 3:9 and Rev 7:14 . Others relevant scriptures : Col 1:12 ; Rom 3:21-28 ; 2Cor 5;17, 21 ; Heb 7: 25 .
The Mormon people can be free from latter days false prophets .
I don’t know if any young, hip and modern LDS folks would leave the church over underwear, but it’s informative that the leadership thinks it’s necessary to solicit their opinion on the garment. Now speaking as someone who feels the need to shield his eyes when he walks by Victoria’s Secret, I would think at least on the female side of the equation, a real LDS sales job needs to be done on the approved underwear. Do the young women really want to put on the garment chosen by a survey conducted by the LDS church?
This is all a symptom of the challenge that the LDS church faces in our day and age. Not only do they have to hold on to their born and bred members, but they have to convince recruits to embrace the peculiarities of the religion. The LDS religion is nothing like it was even fifty years ago much less at its founding. I suppose the leadership is willing to nibble around the edges with the form and function of the religion but I doubt that they are willing to make whole sale changes in the doctrine and practice of the sect.
I think it’s pretty tough to bring an LDS recruit into the fold and totally integrate them into the temple program. That’s why the number that the LDS church will continue to quote, in terms of growth, are the active plus the inactive. I’d be surprised if the number of temple Mormons exceeds 25% of those on the rolls.
Let’s face it, this style of Mormonism is an acquired taste. If someone doesn’t want to take the time to develop that taste, they won’t stick around. How many recruits from third world countries are going to wear the LDS underwear? It’s not going to happen and they certainly aren’t going to answer a fashion survey.
The religion of Mormonism is high commitment. The recruit is being asked to pledge allegiance to the LDS organization with all of its peculiarities. On-the-other-hand, a Christian is asked to receive Christ by faith, period. Jesus isn’t contained in one group identified as the “one true church” with the “one true prophet” who hears from God.
Being a Christian isn’t about joining a group by membership. That’s a tough idea for a Mormon to wrap their brain around. They have this idea that there just has to be a “one true church”. Nope, it’s all about the individual and their commitment to Christ.
Some folks can’t deal with this sort of ambiguity.
Mike R. and Falcon have discussed, above, how God pardons sinners who accept Christ as their Savior, and our worthiness is irrelevant because we are all sinners.
As Mike R. puts it:
“Nothing we have, nothing we can do or offer can make sinners worthy to receive such a priceless treasure it can only be received as a completely undeserved gift, that’s how God offers it. Jesus’ righteousness replaces our unrighteousness, His shed blood personally for us makes us clean enough to enter God’s home above.”
As an ex-Mormon still trying to understand Christianity, allow me to ask a question. Am I correct in assuming that once one has confessed Christ and accepted God’s gift of grace and is now “clean enough to enter God’s home above,” that this presumes the saved individual has repented of his evil ways? If not, wouldn’t that mean heaven will be full of saved murderers and rapists who will just keep on murdering and raping in heaven, or being otherwise evil in the presence of God?
buff
Good question.
We’d have to define what you mean by “repented”. It’s all pretty well laid out in the NT especially if you read “Romans”. Paul asks the question if we should continue to sin so that God’s grace should abound more and more? He then answers the question by asking, how are we who have died to sin continue in it?
In-other-words confessing faith in Jesus doesn’t give someone license to sin. The point is that on-the-one-hand we can’t save ourselves by our behavior. But someone who is truly saved doesn’t continue in habitual sin without any regards to their confession of faith in Jesus.
We are told that if we are in Christ Jesus Our Lord, we are new creatures. The old has passed away. Everything is new. I guess the process is that we are first “justified” by faith in Jesus. Next we are “sanctified” by the Holy Spirit as we walk (in the Spirit). Then after we die we are “glorified”.
I never get into hypothetical situations because in the end it’s God’s program. It’s sort of like someone asking a person who is pro-life if they’d allow an abortion for a twelve year old deaf blind cognitively disabled girl who had been repeatedly raped by her step father.
Thanks, Falcon. That makes sense to me. One last question:
Mormon missionaries have always attacked Christians for believing that babies, children, and adults who die before accepting Christ are going to burn in Hell. What’s the correct response to that?
historybuff, let me address your question .
You said , ” Mike R and Falcon have discussed above , how God pardons sinners who accept Christ as their Savior , and our worthiness is irrelevant because we are all sinners .”
First off , do you realize what it means to ” accept Christ ” as one’s personal Savior ? It’s not referring to simply giving mental ascent that He is the Savior because He said He was in scripture . To accept the Lord Jesus as one’s personal Savior is to directly ask Him to forgive and save you . Jesus said ” Come unto Me ” ( Matt 11:28 ) that means just what it implies — a one on one interaction with the risen Savior who is able to save all who call upon Him in prayer . Do you understand this ?
When you said ” …. and our worthliness is irrelevant because we are all sinners ” , I quite don’t understand your thoughts here . A lifestyle of doing good things is very important . But we can never do enough of them to be ” clean enough ” i.e. righteous enough for God to allow us into His heavenly home . The only “way” that God will declare us that righteous is to be clothed in the righteousness of
Christ alone . It’s coming to Jesus and admitting we deserve God’s wrath and thus not allowed into His home because we have sinned , Jesus will then forgive and save ( give eternal life ) at that moment and the Father forgives us because His Son has . We are thus declared righteous by our faith (trust ) in Jesus’ work , His worthiness , credited to us . His blood has washed us clean allowing God to accept us into His home above , it’s all through Jesus –Jn 14: 6 . Then the christian life begins , aided by the Holy Spirit’s ministry .
We get to have a intimate relationship / fellowship with Jesus and also the Father each day —
1 Cor 1:9 . That’s the very heart of the christian life .
Mormon leaders have taught that eternal life is earned by doing all the rules and regulations that is their gospel . The New Testament says otherwise — Eph 2:8,9 .
What you mentioned about murders and rapists caused me to think that you think that because we say that a person does not have to keep commandments in order to be saved that this means that they don’t want to keep any commandments just live in blatant sinfulness etc . Sorry , but that is so not true . It’s not accurate at all . Eph 2: 8, 9 is how a person gets saved ( receives eternal life ) , and verse 10 is about what they do after being saved i.e. live for Jesus !
In closing I’d like to mention that you will benefit by reading the following articles that are available from MRM : ” The impossible Gospel ” , and ” The Repentance Quiz ” . Please check these out .
Thanks .
So according to Mormon beliefs, if a person wants to be in the very presence of God, they must get a temple recommend, then they must wear these garments for life? I know there is more to it–but they do believe one must wear these garments all of their life right? What if a Mormon says, i believe everything but the garment thing i will not do. What is the official teaching?
I can’t help but think of Isaiah 64:6 “We are all like one who is unclean, all our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in your sight. We all wither like a leaf; our sins carry us away like the wind.” I like what Paul said in Philippians 3:9 “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”
Does anyone know of a good book that would show how Joseph Smith took the garment ideas from Freemasonry?
buff
As far as who goes to hell……………………..
I would advise someone to read the NT, I’m sort of repetitive here, and determine what it says. Catholic theology teaches something like “age of reason” at which point a person is responsible for their actions.
My standard answer is that folks need to take care of their own standing before God and let Him take care of the people in Africa, China or where ever………….
Thanks, Mike R., for explaining about grace. I think I understand: once people are truly saved, their lives will be changed and they will act accordingly. They won’t be perfect, of course, but they will leave their evil ways (if they had any) behind them and become a force for good. Conversely, if a person reverts back to his or her evil ways, that’s a strong indicator that he or she didn’t truly accept Christ and wasn’t truly saved in the first place. That makes sense to me. Did I get it right? Thanks again.
Falcon — Thanks for the brief explanation about babies and adults who never learned of Christ. I’m fine with letting God “take care of the people in Africa, China or where ever.” But I still don’t understand what He’s said is going to happen to them. The New Testament seems a bit vague on the subject. Does that mean we don’t know and He hasn’t told us?
historybuff, I’d like to ask you again if you understand what is meant by a ” personal relationship with Jesus” , or what it means to ” accept Christ ” as one’s Savior? I mentioned about this in my post
I hope you will ponder this , it is of vital importance .
bbc ,
welcome .
you might try utlm .org . They should have a book about this .
buff…………
Read the first three chapters of the Book of Romans. Paul lays out a case like a lawyer. He talks about the heathen, the hypocrite etc. Some people say we are judged on the “light” we have not the “light” we don’t have. I don’t know. Basically the Good News is that we are separated from God because of our sin. He has made provision for us through the cross because we would never be able to save ourselves. So it’s all based on faith. One may ask, “Faith in who or what?”. It’s who and the who is Jesus. He did for us what we couldn’t do for ourselves. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I keep going back to the “Roman Road” i.e. the Book of Romans. It lays it all out there.
bbc
Welcome. It’s always nice to have new posters.
May the Mormon people come to understand what is the true gospel of salvation , what is the “way ” to live with the Father in His home above for all eternity . It’s all about Jesus . It’s not Jesus plus climbing up the Mormon gospel ” ladder ” of works to earn entrance into the Father’s home and eternal life with Him as Mormon leaders have taught .
Mormons who want to receive the gift of eternal life must tear up their temple recommends , they must remove their temple garments , and come empty handed on bended knee and ask Jesus to be their personal Savior , His righteousness / perfection is then credited to them thus making them righteous and worthy for the Father to accept them into His home since He has placed on them a robe of righteousness — it’s the righteousness of Jesus ! That ALONE is their ” temple recommend ” that grants them entrance into God’s home above . Faith ( a heart trust ) in Jesus is how complete salvation ( eternal life ) is received . This happens at the point when confession from a surrendered heart is made . Immediately a miracle happens and new life is born . Now the christian life begins and doing good things flow out of a heart of gratitude to God . Eph 2:8-10
May the precious Mormon people dismiss their prophets and come to Jesus for spiritual freedom and true worship .
OK, time to be petty.
Anyone else get a kick out of the advertisement for the LDS garments?
You mean the advertisement : ” L.D.S. Garments , lowest —Direct Factory Prices to You— on Ladies Silk Underwear ” from ” The Reliable L.D.S. Garment . ” ?
I’d like to know what year that ad was created . I did’nt realize there was such a choice of colors .
That’s the one. And the lady in it is striking such the pose.
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