What do people mean when they say, “their best”?
“I did my best to make it on time.”
“I did my best to get good grades.”
“I do my best to be a good person.”
Normally, this functions as hyperbole or socially acceptable exaggeration. It is often feel-good language for moral failure. When pressed, people usually admit that they could have done better. But if one could have done better, then they didn’t do their actual best. “Best” often functions as a catchphrase for, “I could have done better, but I, uh, at least tried.”
This kind of ambiguity or “semantic range” or exaggeration or hyperbole has no place in a clear discussion on grace, faith, works, and forgiveness. It is arrogant to stand before a holy God and tell him, “I did my best.” No, you didn’t, you cosmic criminal. Stop lying to yourself, and stop lying to God.
If doing our real best is the precondition for forgiveness or eternal life, then we’re all doomed.
The only one who morally did his real best was Jesus.
Stop trusting the false god who justifies those who do their “best” and start trusting the God who justifies the ungodly by faith (Romans 4:4-8).
cattyjane , do you love to say the name ” Jesus ” when you talk about your christian walk ?
I think the sooner you concentrate your reading to the New Testament the better it will be for
you to understand some things better as concerns the christian walk .
That’s my opinion .
God bless you cattyjane .
Catty, I would add that I am not at all surprised that you find it difficult to accept Christ’s love, and that this is all he asks in return. Why? Because though it is the simplest of ideas, it is also the hardest to accept.
How can anyone anywhere forgive just simply because they love me so much? And on top of that, we’re not just talking about loved ones near us, we are talking about God-almighty, who demands perfection (that did not change with Christ). But God does love us that much, so that He took the full form of a human and came to earth to die for us so that we might live. God loves us, there is no question.
FMM
I like the way you answer. So here goes.
You said
God’s standard is perfection.
I say
I agree with you there.
You said
If there is anyway for you to improve you did not do your best.
I sayGod “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
I am in a learning process. I can only do my best up to the knowledge I have. I have a lot to learn and so do you. If I am standing before God I would be dead so how can I improve? My best answer would be I did my best.
You said
It’s that simple.
I say
I put my comments in because it seemed that the bloggers were having a hard time explaining that you don’ t follow the ten commandments because they are law but you do. It still is complicated to me.
I am sorry that I don’t have time to answer everything. I do know that God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Clyde, set aside all your Mormon publications and get alone with the Bible for a few weeks .
Read slowly , re read , and ponder what is being said . Make time for this in your daily life .
Terrible editing on my part this is the way it should have read.
FMM
I like the way you answer. So here goes.
You said God’s standard is perfection.
I say
I agree with you there.
You said
If there is anyway for you to improve you did not do your best.
I say
I am in a learning process. I can only do my best up to the knowledge I have. I have a lot to learn and so do you. If I am standing before God I would be dead so how can I improve? My best answer would be I did my best.
You said
It’s that simple.
I say
I put my comments in because it seemed that the bloggers were having a hard time explaining that you don’ t follow the ten commandments because they are law but you do. It still is complicated to me.
I am sorry that I don’t have time to answer everything. I do know that God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Hey Clyde
you said
I am in a learning process. I can only do my best up to the knowledge I have.
I say,
God’s standard is not “your best up to the knowledge you have” his standard is perfection.
His standard is perfection anything else is sin. Please think about this
you say,
If I am standing before God I would be dead so how can I improve? My best answer would be I did my best.
I say:
if that is your best answer you will be eternally condemned as a law breaker. You have already granted as much
This is serious business you need to think about it,
you quote:
God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
I say,
It does not say
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality “up to the knowledge they have”, he will give eternal life.
Please dwell on this. Read what the text says not what you want it to say
God’s standard is perfection, your righteous deeds are as filthy rags
what can you expect to receive?????
peace
Clyde, your false prophet Joseph Smith said in D and C, a man cannot be saved in ignorance.
I feel really sorry for you and all LDS. You guys are ignorant of many of your own teachings, so how can you be saved according to your scriptures. But then the teaching you are aware of are false and built upon lies and you guys ignore them and make excuses for them. So then how can you be saved when the bible is clear, liars and false prophets and false teachers will be cast into the lake of fire. Seems your doomed either way.
Clyde,
First, in most any country, ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking it. Second, we are told that the law is written on everyone’s hearts such that even if they do not hear the gospel message they are still without excuse. Its in the New Testament.
So, if you believe in the New Testament, you should be aware of that truth.
Clyde,
No Mormon on this blog can say they have not heard the truth when they stand before God. You will be with out excuse.
Clyde,
Not to pile on but just 4 verses after the verse you quoted about God giving eternal life to those who persist in doing good we find this statement.
quote:
For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
(Rom 2:11-12)
end quote:
Have you sinned Clyde?
It does not say continually sin or sin blatantly or sin openly it says simply “sin”
What does the text say you can expect???
Ignorance of the law is no excuse !!!!!!!
peace
So just nevermind the first 10 vs of chaper 2 right?
Catty- of which book?
MJP,
Fifth MM said
Im guessing Catty Jane is talking about Romans Chapter 2, and she is asking about the verses 1-10 leading up to verse 11.
Hey Catty Jane,
You said,
So just nevermind the first 10 vs of chaper 2 right?
I say,
I’m not sure what you are getting at.
Verses 1 through 10 are all about everyone being under the wrath of God.
God judges impartially
Some are condemned by the standard they use to pass judgement on others
(verses 1 through 3)
Some are condemned because presume on the riches of God’s kindness and forbearance and patience (verses 4 and 5)
At the judgement seat everyone is judged not arbitrarily but fairly by their works (verse 6)
If anyone could live their entire life in “persistent well doing” according to God’s perfect standard they would be given eternal life (verse 7)
But the rest of us will be condemned because we are often “self seeking” (verse 8 )
Chapters two and three repeatedly drive home the point like a sledge hammer that we all. Jew and Gentile alike are fairly and equitably condemned in God’s sight. There is no difference
We are all children of wrath with out hope.
unless and except…………………
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
(Rom 3:20b-25a)
peace
Thanks, Rick.
So, my take on Romans 2 1-10 is this. First, I am posting the verses here:
“2 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking[a] and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.”
I say that these verses clearly state that doing good is a good thing. They state that we ought not to judge those who continue follow some of the law of the OT are just fine. I would think we all agree on that point. The second half is best described through vs. 7 & 8, which simply say that God will reward those who do good will receive eternal life and those who are self-seeking won’t. Nothing is specified in what is good, including any specific mention that following the law is good.
Also, these ten verses are explained and parced in great detail throughout the rest of the book of Romans. For someone so concerned about the law, it would be wise to consider the entire book that discusses the relationship between the law and faith.
What we all really need is to understand the Holiness of God.
God does not grade on the curve and he does not wink at sin
He is Holy Holy Holy
He can can not even abide the sight of sin. The proper answer when one is in the presence of this kind of all consuming holiness is not “I did my best” It’s
quote:
“Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
(Isa 6:5)
or to fall on our knees and say
“Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.”
(Luk 5:8)
finally check this out
“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you,…………. this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other………………… For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
(Luk 18:10-14)
nuff said
peace
So time for me to pop into this thread.
What are we talking about? Is it essential Christianity or one of the many forms of Mormonism?
Anything that clyde writes is oriented to what he has been taught by the LDS church. So that’s his frame of reference. What he says makes sense to him based on his belief that he is going to become a god. clyde gets that notion from the ever evolving thoughts of Joseph Smith and those that followed him as a “prophet”. clyde practices level 2 LDS religion. He has to work in order to become a god. It must be earned through religious rituals/rites, obedience to LDS sect callings and the living out of what this sect has outlined as moral living. clyde will never do enough unless of course he rises to a high enough level in his Mormon sect to obtain that final ritual which will deem him to having done enough to become a god.
None of this is Christianity of course whether we’re talking the present day or the first century church. clyde has bought into the LDS sects version of Mormonism. He certainly hasn’t considered that what first century Christianity was about bears no resemblance to 21st century Mormonism as practiced by the LDS sect.
falcon,
That’s a huge difference you are right! Regardless of if we are to still obey the law or not the goal is significantly different. LDS obey not only the laws of Moses, but also these made up rules by men who as we see in the new topic posted do not even keep themselves. The goal of the LDS is to become a God or like God by their obedience. To bad Joseph Smith cant go back in time and talk to Moses face to face about his goals to be like God. Im pretty sure he would have been taken outside of the city and stoned to death. That is just an abomination! There are so many scriptures that point to there being only One God. There is one person who stated and will state in the last days that he has become “like God” and that is the false messiah.
James 2:19 You do well is you believe there is only one God
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no savior
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; ad there is none else.
Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it: ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isaiah 14:14 talks about the evil one exalting himself of the Almighty. “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself LIKE the Most High”
2 Thessalonians 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in Gods temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Ezekiel 28:2 “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: “In the pride of your heart you say, “I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas.” But you are a mere mortal and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.
Maybe it is because of the fear of God that I have, that I would never say “I will be like God, or A God”. Im pretty sure that with the understanding I have now If I were to say that I would be struck dead. That is a serious thing to say. The above posts are correct. God hates pride in our own works. The towel of Babel was destroyed because the people were trying to ascend to Heaven by their own power. That is not how it is done. We don’t sneak into the gates, or try to pick the lock. If we enter it is only because of mercy. I think it was Jeremiah who when he was taken into heaven to receive prophesy fell on his face. The only way that he stood up was when God raised him to his feet. And he was one of the greatest prophets ever!!! The only way that we can stand before God is if he raises us up himself. It is never us raising ourselves.
Sorry. I really wasnt trying to divert people off topc earlier. I was just commenting on what was posted.
If you’re in the LDS sect of Mormonism, being perfect is an expectation imposed by the system. It’s a standard by which the faithful Mormon man hopes to become a god. Anything less is not acceptable. The effect of such a standard of perfection is that it places an enormous amount of stress on someone trying to lead the life of perfection but it also serves as a point of pride for those who think they have a superior religious experience.
Sinless perfection and the legalism that enforces it, didn’t start with Mormons. In the history of the Christian religion there have been movements that have tried the same thing. Pietism and the holiness movement are two that come to mind. The Methodist, who Joseph Smith was heavily influenced by, had their own “method” for maintaining high moral standards.
“While studying at Oxford, Wesley, his brother Charles, and several other students formed a group devoted to study, prayer and helping the underprivileged. They were labeled “Methodist” by their fellow students because of the way they used “rule” and “method” to go about their religious affairs.”
The bottom line is that the striving for “perfection” is a fool’s errand because it can’t be done and leaves the practitioner frustrated. Do I recommend perfection? Yes, absolutely! But the deal is that I’ve been declared righteous in the eyes of God based on my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. I am the temple of the Holy Spirit. God no longer resides in temples made with the hands of men. He lives in us and has written His Law on our hearts. I do not obey by the Letter of the Law but by the Spirit of God.
Bless His Holy Name!
Clyde and any who don’t understand, just needs to keep reading Romans 2, as I quoted way back up in the thread. It totally explains what we are talking about here and is all tied together:
We do NOT have to obey the Law. Any of it. We do not need to, because the works of the flesh are OBVIOUS. (See my quotes above). When we obey the Holy Spirit, we EMBRACE the Law, because the Law (as the Holy Spirit does) makes us conscious of our sins.
It does not get any more plain than that. As Paul states,
Do you know what he means here? The ENTIRE LAW, is the ENTIRE LAW. As Paul states in Corinthians:
LDS first problem in doing temple works to acheive God hood or any status in heaven whatsoever is that their temple works are not even a shadow of what the true 1 and 2 temple were used for. If God had suddenly changed his mind about what temple works were necessary wouldnt he have told the Jewish people about it? Also there is only one place the temple can be built and HELLO its in Israel! Why have there no 3rd temple yet? Because a big Mosque is sitting in its spot.
Maybe this was just a huge wake up call for me and maybe its not as clear for other LDS members. But when I researched the so called temple works and compared them to the works actually done in the temple it was so obvious that I was lied to. The temple was where sacrifices for sin was offered and the appointed feasts were observed. Not baptisms for the dead of marriage and family sealings. You lds are being sold a generic temple! Its like buying the sur fine wanna be brand of bread over Alpine Valley organic and K certified bread. The two are not the same its its just gonna make you sick.
Research this. How many Jewish people convert to Mormonism? I bet ZERO! You know why? Because the know their history and they know their God and they know the culture and content of the writings of the scriptures. They would never be deceived by such a hoax as the lds prophets. These prophets and apostles know that the people who are easiest to deceive are the ones who do not know these things. Just so obvious that is a cracker jacks religion it makes me hate that my name is on the rolls still.
Catty, I think you bring up an interesting point: how many Christians know enough about the faith to avoid the callings of a faith like Mormonism? I would argue not enough.
grindael,
I don’t know what’s so difficult to understand. Christ completed the Law. The Law was there until Jesus sealed the New Covenant in His blood.
I have no intention of being under the Old Covenant. Why would anyone want that with all of its implications.
What’s that verse about what the Law couldn’t do weak as it were in the flesh, God did………………….
Now why did God give the Law. It was our tutor until Christ.
You keep banging away about how we now live this life of peace with God in the Spirit not in the Law. I don’t know. Maybe a person has to be born again to understand it!
Falcon, I get your frustration, but I have to say that I do get how people can miss the message. How can they miss the message? Its easy, pride and control. What the Gospel preaches is that we don’t have to be under rules but instead under Christ. Rules though provide boundaries that are more tangible and visible than is being under the vague notion that Christ does everything for us so rules aren’t needed. I am not saying Christ is not tangible, but it is in some ways easier to look to some code for what we are supposed to do than it is to rely on Christ. Why is that? Because the code gets specific in what we are to do and what we aren’t. Christ is not always clear– he rarely gives specific boundaries, and when he did it was usually quite radical. Specific rules appeal more to the sense of control we all have, and that is difficult for some to give up. Christ’s most important command was to love God, then to love everyone else. When we do those in all aspects of our lives, we stay within the boundaries of the rules, but there’s something psychological about our nature than makes it difficult to accept that.
Anyway, my two cents.
MJP.
Yup I’d say people want to be told what to do and then they want to rebel against what they’re told to do. I’m thinking of this even in terms of employee-employer relationships or students in schools or whatever.
Though retired, I still spend a fair amount of time in schools. One of the things I always ask teachers is, “Do you have your rules posted?” When I teach college students who want to become teachers, one of the big things I cover is the importance of having routines and procedures and practicing with the students.
So our lives are governed by rules, regulations, procedures, expectations and routines. Actually I’m OK with that and I have them built into my life.
But now we come to our relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ and we say we aren’t governed by form and structure but are compelled by love. That’s very difficult for many people to grasp and put into practice.
Just for fun. Do you have rules that govern your relationship with your spouse? I’ll bet there are all kinds of unspoken rules. Let me give you an example from my own life. I always tell my wife where I’m going, how long I’ll be there and when I’ll return. That’s the way my mother trained me and it’s now a sort of rule.
I never have anything “loud” on in the house when my wife is home. It’s impossible for me to watch a TV show with her because she has the volume so low I have to read lips. I’m not kidding. I even keep my guitar amps in my man-cave on a low volume when she’s within a mile of the house.
So I don’t know, are these rules, expectations or courtesies? I like to think that I’m motivated by love and not a list of rules in my relationship with my wife. It’s the same with God.
Yup. Exactly. Love pushes us to put the interests of others above our own– like watching my wife’s TV show when the Cards are playing the Cubs on TV, and she watches the likes of Chopped, Food Court Wars, all home improvement shows, etc.
Yes, there are rules in my house, mostly unspoken.
I love Chopped, I applied 3 times to get on that show. My next Favorite is, Cut throat Kitchen, I want to get on that also.
Falcon,
I am at peace because I live by the Holy Spirit. I don’t worry about what I have to do, it’s obvious, and though what I do will never be enough,
This is all so very simple. FREEDOM comes from living by the Holy Spirit. How can you live by the Holy Spirit, and have the Spirit dictate to you what your gifts shall be, if you are bound up in rules and regulations that are imposed upon you by men who have no idea what the Holy Spirit has designated for you?
If you are a PROPHET, you will be called by the Holy Spirit to prophesy. If you are a teacher, you will be given the gift to teach. If you are a leader, you will be given the gift to lead. Our AUTHORITY IS THE HOLY SPIRIT. No one but the Holy Spirit can give you the gifts that God has prepared for you. HE distributes them to each one, just as HE determines.
We can DESIRE them, but that doesn’t mean we will GET THEM. That is the fallacy of forced “priesthood”. It assumes that everyone will get all these gifts, based on following rules (MAKING oneself “righteous” by way of law). This is a great fallacy that is anathema to the Gospel of Jesus. Back to Romans:
This is why regulations like tithing destroys the freedom of the Holy Spirit. Giving, is a GIFT of the Holy Spirit. We all have different GIFTS, according to the GRACE given to each of us. We are not assembly line Christians. We are all individuals, led by the Holy Spirit which works in us for the common good. The Law has nothing to do with this. The Law destroys the freedom of the better way, the way of the Holy Spirit.
And,
How many times does Paul have to say it? He says it over and over again in different letters to different churches. The ONLY THING that counts is FAITH (belief) expressing itself through LOVE. Not regulations, not commandments, not anything. If you LOVE ME, you will KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS (given to make those without the Holy Spirit conscious of their sins). If you LOVE ME, the works of the flesh are OBVIOUS. If you LOVE ME, you are no longer under the LAW.
That is why I am at peace living by the Holy Spirit.
Contrast the above, to what Dallin Oaks says,
Here we see the fallacy of what Mormonism teaches, because they claim that through ordination, only a special few, get ALL the gifts:
This is not what is taught in the Bible. There is no ladder of righteousness that one can climb to get ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere does the Bible teach this. Nowhere does it teach that certain men can be ordained to get all the spiritual gifts. For the lay members, they only get “some” while the special “prophet” gets them all. This is certainly not “absolute equality before the Lord.”
grindael,
Very Good!
Folks in the LDS sect live by rules and regulations and rites that they think will transform them into gods. Where do they get this type of thinking? From a bunch of free lance prophet wannabees that were able to convince them that Biblical Christianity was corrupted and lost along with God’s Word.
My first question to a MM would be, “So what you believe, teach and practice is exactly what the first century Christian Church believed, taught and practiced?” My second question would be, “Can you prove that to me?”
Now the fun really starts because they will want to say that they were taught these things through “revelation”. Well this kind of “revelation” opens the door to all sorts of fun and games which is what Mormonism is. Not so much fun and games today because the boys have settled down, but in the old days they were coming up with all sorts of fabulous doctrines. Many of these precious truths lasted about one generation.
One of the LDS church’s other brag is that they have modern day apostles and prophets. I say so what? Anyone can be advertised as an apostle or prophet. In the LDS church system it’s become a political designation given to the men who’ve been able to work themselves up to the top of the pile.
I think that the key hook in LDS sect Mormonism is that a member has to “earn” it. So if the system can convince a person of this, then the system will be served. That’s the whole deal with the LDS program. Get the folks hooked and then just light their tail on fire and keep them running. Instill enough fear and guilt and they are controlled.
Falcon,
Here is the real mind blower. They say, “as pertaining to all of the gifts of the Spirit, with reference to the receipt of revelation, the gaining of testimonies, and the seeing of visions, in all matters that pertain to godliness and holiness and which are brought to pass as a result of personal righteousness…and keep[ing] his commandments“, and then you get to “call these gifts into operation.”
You must EARN the Mormon “gifts”. But no one is righteous! Righteousness (according to Paul) is a GIFT based on FAITH (belief). Since God cannot look on sin with the least degree of allowance (according to Smith’s “revelations”) a Mormon must be PERFECT, to gain spiritual gifts.
grindael,
Now is there any doubt in the mind of an LDS sect member that what they practice is “another gospel”? Paul warned about this in his letter to the Galatians. Paul even said that even if an angel came and preached another gospel, let him be accursed.
The Bible is the enemy of Mormonism because it’s within the Bible that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the gospel of grace and salvation by faith, is presented.
But the LDS church gets these folks to believe that it’s through obedience to the commandments that they will receive their reward.
I think our LDS friends would do well to read the Book of Acts and see that when people received the Gift of the Holy Spirit it wasn’t on the basis of obeying the commandments. The Gift of the Holy Spirit was received by faith in the Lord Jesus. Now as a result of faith and being born again, believers do obey the commandments because it’s now written on their hearts. The obedience to God’s standard comes about because of this change, not out of compulsion.
No wonder these Mormons get beaten like a borrowed mule by the LDS system. These poor dupes can never do enough or ever become good enough because at the end of the day, they fall short. I fall short everyday but because I walk in the light as He is in the light, the Blood of Jesus continually cleanses me from all unrighteousness and the requirements of the Law are met.
It is easily seen why the LDS church teaches that the gospel was lost and that the Bible is corrupted. If someone believes that, their pathway to salvation through God’s grace and faith in Jesus Christ is blocked. They are then indebted to a religious system and a gospel that controls their lives and cannot provide for them eternal life.