“The NT clearly teaches that we do not need physical temples of any sort to save us. In Hebrews we become completely aware that Jesus is the altar, the tabernacle, His flesh the veil, His heaven the holy of holies, the only High Priest over the house of God. He is our confession, there is no need to go to a temple to receive a sealing since the believers are promised by God that His Spirit, the Holy Spirit of Promise resides in us and we become sealed by Him through our belief as an eternal companion, an eternal bride, with Him our bridegroom forever. Read Eph 1: 14. Temples in the past were only for sacrificial gifts for the redemption of sin through the unblemish blood of lambs. Jesus is our last sacrifice and paid the last drop of blood for our sins. Praise Him..It is completely finished. He fulfilled everything and nailed it to the cross. If we don’t go through Jesus as our temple, we miss out on salvation.” – David Bartosiewicz
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Matt. 12:41,”The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.”
Just a minor correction, ” εἰς” manifests in “at” rather than the “for” portion. The for manifests as (hoti), which can mean because, that, for, However, this doesn’t change the postulation I made earlier. ” εἰς” still means “to result from” in Matt. 12:41.
Additional verses to address this evening/morning:
Acts 22:16: ‘And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
So at surface value it does seem to say, that “washing away your sins” results from “Rise and be baptized.”
However, it could mean: “Rise and be baptized.” This is a command to go and get baptized, but this results from the “washing away of your sins” that comes from “calling on his name.” When we look at this verse:
1 Pet. 3:18-22: “in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ…”
Baptism is to obey God out of a good conscience. “typical” or “corresponding to” or a “pattern of” – 1 Pet. 3:21, “ἀντίτυπον” –
So, in this verse, baptism cannot remove dirt(sin) from your body. However, the reference is to Noah’s family that were saved. The question that needs to be asked, is if they were saved or declared righteous before the water or after? It should be before. The water didn’t save them.
Baptism is a model that follows salvation, someone who is already saved. It’s an act of obedience, not a requirement of salvation, otherwise Noah’s family would need to go through the flood to be declared righteous. But, they(in Noah) were declared righteous before the flood occurred: “These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.” (Gen. 6:9).
I’ve gone quite long on this topic, I hope this has helped.
Yes it helped. Thanks.
Catty, I almost hesitate to add to this conversation because it is so long, and I don’t want to make you feel like you are being targeted or questioned unduly. But you wrote this earlier, and I do think this requires attention.
“And faith alone for salvation is tough because then you have to ask how much faith and how much belief.”
Matthew 17:20 tells us that Jesus said faith as small as a mustard seed can move mountains. (20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”) The question he was replying to was why couldn’t the disciples cast out demons.
Now, what do I think of your struggle? I appreciate it. This is tough stuff, and if you have an LDS background, some of our beliefs must be challenging. We are indeed telling you that works don’t matter to our salvation. Works are not necessary for salvation. Christ’s commands can be summed up in one, simple word, “Love”.
LDS, from what I understand, straddle these concepts. No, works aren’t really necessary because without belief in Christ, the works mean little. But just the same, without the works, the faith is empty and you are not saved. Of course, the works are specific works- not works involving loving your neighbor.
I could go on, but it is not my intent to do that here. You’ve evidently some serious questions that you must answer. I applaud you for looking, but caution you not to look too far out in front of the obvious. The obvious is that Christ died for our sins, and the only requirement we have is to look upon him, and to trust in him. That’s really it.
If you’re looking for a contract here, something that you have to do in return, it is simply this: allow Christ to live in your heart and use you to benefit his kingdom. You don’t have to do anything but that.
Remember the KISS principle. Keep it Simple, Stupid. I do applaud your effort and diligence, but don’t make it too complicated.
One last comment, the entirety of the gospel (New Testament) teaches salvation without works, baptism or ordinances. Once saved, we are taught to obey, and we should obey as adopted children (Gal. 3:26). Every scripture must make sense with all the other scriptures. If it doesn’t then it’s my/our/your understanding that needs to be adjusted. God’s word should be consistent throughout its teaching about salvation. From what I can see, it is.
I dont feel targeted. I would rather everyone be straight forward with me than not. I get what everyone is saying and im not upset. Sometimes it is hard to answer the question everyone asks because it makes me think about things.
You have cleared up some things for me. Thx. I wish I knew hebrew and greek. It would make trusting and understanding what I read a lot easier!
Catty, glad to hear it.
I think you’ll find what you are looking for… God is bigger than all of us, and will certainly help you on your quest, too.
Thx. I wish I knew hebrew and greek. It would make trusting and understanding what I read a lot easier!
Do you know that you can “read” the Hebrew and Greek of the bible for yourself by using resources like the blue letter bible web cite. It has the original language of the Bible and you can click on each word to see the definition and other places that it is used.
It’s not really the same as knowing the languages but it allows you to study for yourself
Thanks for the kind words, and I’m happy to help answer your questions, as are others on this site. You can view interlinear for Hebrew and Greek here:
http://www.biblos.com (and choose your book, chapter and verse, then click Hebrew for OT, Greek for NT).
This will give you exact word translation, and thereafter you can view more of it.
It’s interesting that the Greek and Hebrew texts for over 3000 years are tenacious. It has remained the same in content for that period of time right up till today. In other words, the Bible hasn’t changed. This would mean that LDS Claims along with other restorationist claims cannot be founded on the restoration of the Bible, because the Bible remains the same.
FMM & RikkiJ,
Thanks guys I will chk out those sites. That is my big hangup is trusting the NT. I read some information a few months ago that really discredited the NT and questioned the apostle Paul and also gave reasons why Jesus could not be the messiah. Ever since reading that its hard for me to allow the NT scripture to ~sink in~ so to speak. Its very easy for to believe that a restoration was needed because of what I read.
I would be happy to hear that information, and I can certainly understand why you would lose faith in the New Testament after reading something like that.
If you have a link, or more information, please post. Thanks.
Here is the link that explains how jesus is not the messiah ahttp://www.youtube.com/embed/jB7EZ5fgr4I?autoplay=1nd explains how a blood atonement was not neccessary for forgiveness of sin. Its been a long time since ive watched this video so im not sure if it also speaks about paul or not. But his argument on the blood atonement is pretty convincing. He explains how blood sacrifice was not the only form of an offering that was given to atone for sin. I believe the blood offering was specific to unintentional sin. Anyways…here is the link. Ill get the rest on here later. Im on my lunch break but I had this one on hand so I
thought Id get you started.
Oops heres the link
I am expecting to get hammered by everyone on what I am about to say but I am going to say it anyway. The link I am about to post talks about Paul and how he came into his ministry. What is really striking to me is the similarity between Paul and Joseph Smith. They both had a vision…that they only saw…and they both claim to receive no religious instruction before they began their mission. Both of the people (Paul and JS) claim that their revelations placed them higher than the other churches or apostles. It explains how Pauls gospel differs from the rest of the NT scripture that was written by the other apostles. It explains how Paul borrowed many pagan beliefs and incorporated them into his scripture in order to win over the Gentile people.
Joseph Smith saw JC and the Father alone and in a spiritual element…Paul also saw Christ in a spiritual element and was alone. Paul claims apostleship by this vision and so did Joseph Smith. Hmmm….all of the apostles saw Jesus Christ in the flesh…..all of the miracles performed by Christ were done before many people and the same occurred when God did things in the Old Testament. Things were done in the presence of many or thousands of people. These things just make me question Paul…a lot!
I don’t suggest reading all of this previous one I posted but starting with the heading “Jewish Proselytism and Paul” and below.
The last one I am going to post is a book that talks about Paul being a false apostle and the only instruction he received from Jesus was through divine revelation (like JS).
Thanks for the links, it’s a bit of work, but if it’s alright with you – I’ll respond to you over the next little while, just due to sheer volume of the information in the links.
There is a lot here and I’m sure that Rikkj will do a good job in his response but I’d like to quickly point out some of the obvious differences between JS and Paul that jump out right away.
1) Paul met with worked with and was accepted by those who were apostles before him
2) The Church saw no conflict between his writings and those of the other apostles, both are part of the Bible after all
3) Paul did not have a “vision” he actually saw the risen Christ, remember (the unbelieving solders saw the light as well Acts 22:9)
possibly more later
Fifth Monarchy man is correct. There are factual discrepancies, not counting the deeper doctrines or argument structure(s) from your links(which also are incorrect).
I regret that the information you read is heavily biased, and not based(mostly) on observable fact. There are some things that are true. All to come in a response soon.
I’m not sure if this topic falls under this forum’s response, but as long as the moderators allow, I’ll post within 3 days, most likely before.
Again, not to gang up, but Paul was hardly uneducated in religion before his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus, as he was a Pharisee. Now, he admits Christ taught him the gospel, primarily, but his knowledge of the OT and Jewish law clearly sets him apart from Smith.
It seems you are in a position I have been myself. Essentially, it is a position that destroys any belief because by comparing beliefs that contradict each other, its easy to throw up your hands and say none of it can be true. That’s not a fun place to be.
Sorry I didn’t mean to say your links are incorrect, but the doctrines and argument structure(s) from your links are.
.all of the miracles performed by Christ were done before many people and the same occurred when God did things in the Old Testament. Things were done in the presence of many or thousands of people. These things just make me question Paul…a lot!
Actually it is better attested historically that Paul performed miracles than the other apostles and the evidence is even stronger for Paul than for Jesus himself with the exception of the Resurrection.
Paul wrote letters to eyewitness reminding them of the miracles he had performed in front of them and making his very Apostleship dependent on that fact . That these documents are in the Bible demonstrate conclusively that he performed miracles.
The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.
(2 Corinthians 12:12)
For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;
Not only that but in the “WE” sections of acts Luke describe amazing miracles performed by Paul that Luke himself had seen with his own eyes something he does not do for any other apostle .
but we sailed away from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days we came to them at Troas, where we stayed for seven days. On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight. There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered. And a young man named Eutychus, sitting at the window, sank into a deep sleep as Paul talked still longer. And being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. But Paul went down and bent over him, and taking him in his arms, said, “Do not be alarmed, for his life is in him.”
There are lots more where that came from. These claims are just ridiculous on their face. I’m amazed that you would be taken in by them
Ok. So lets take a look at Paul/Saul vision that he had under the same light that we looked at Joseph Smiths vision. There are many different versions of the first vision that Joseph Smith had right? But there is also a contradiction I the vision that Paul claims to have had.
Acts 9:7 The men stood speechless
Acts 26:14 The men fell to the earth
Acts 9:7 the men heard a voice but saw no man
Acts 22:9 the men heard not the voice and saw a light
Did the men stand speechless or did they fall to the ground? Did they hear a voice or did they not hear a voice?
Could this mean there are translation issues? I doubt it because these statements are diametrically opposed to each other.
I have read the comment addressed to me by Shem on another topic but as I’ve been away for a while helping out my partially crippled son (he doesn’t have a computer) it wasn’t possible to respond. At the moment my time is very limited so it will have to go on the back burner as I think it’s more important to respond to what cattyjane has said. No offence intended Shem.
Some weeks ago you were thanking everyone, myself included, for helping to straighten you out & point you in the right direction. Now it seems that you have reverted back to your previous position. The points you raised in your last few posts are easily dealt with & I’m quite sure that they will be answered, but not by me. I’m not going to answer them because to do so would be pointless, you will continue to find fault with anything that opposes LDS doctrine & even though the truth may be staring you in the face in typical LDS fashion you will refuse to accept it. That may seem harsh but from what I’ve observed you still want the LDS to be correct. If I’m accurate in my assessment of the situation then you are wasting your time because what you WANT to be true CANNOT be demonstrated by using Scripture.
If, on the other hand you genuinely are seeking answers then I apologise for the above & will give you a very simple analogy in an effort to explain a little of what can happen in the life of the genuine seeker after truth.
You are in a prison cell trying to read, it’s not dark but it’s too dim to read anything more than a few words. Suddenly the door swings open & light floods in, you realise your jailor is gone, you can now see to read properly & you are free to walk away from your cell.
So it is with the Holy Spirit, we pick up the Bible, we read & we have our ‘eureka’ moments, this isn’t a one time experience neither is it a feeling, it is God opening our eyes to the truth of his word. You no longer need to say ‘I know it’s true because I have a testimony’ but can truthfully say ‘I know it’s true because God opened my eyes.’
You have said you find it hard to trust, well, there are many in here that can tell you that they DID have trust, they put their trust in the LDS & found they were sadly mistaken. They came to know Christ & His truth ONLY AFTER they left the corporation.
Let me briefly tell you something about the last week or so. At the start of this post I mentioned my son & to that I will add something concerning my ex-wife. While ‘down south’ I spent a while talking with her. As most here are probably aware she’s a member of the LDS so I was very surprised (and happy) with what she had to say. She told me she was having second thoughts about the church &, leaving aside the ‘weird’ teachings, she was beginning to realise that basically all that mattered to them was money. She finally admitted to me that if it hadn’t been for the LDS Corporation she would still have a little set aside for that ‘rainy day’. After having given them thousands she’s now having to go them, cap in hand for whatever handouts they care to give.
Now I have a couple of questions for you.
My ex believed that God was interested only in her salvation & that He had led her to the LDS, that is, until she discovered that after giving so much of her savings to that so called church she wouldn’t be saved unless she continued to give them 10% of her meagre pension when she retired. That evil corporation demands 10% of what she needs to live on & bearing in mind that over here a pension is carefully calculated to provide only for a persons basic needs, if 10% is removed you end up in poverty & debt. In other words she has to choose between eating properly & having shoes on her feet, or, giving her money to a multi billion dollar Corporation.
So, my first question to you is this. After reading the above do you still believe that the LDS is a Christian organization?
Joseph Smith, a man well known for his fraudulent activities, founded the Mormon organization. He was a man who found himself in a Bainbridge court accused of & being found guilty of fraud years after he claimed to have had his revelations from God. The LDS was founded in deception & it’s my belief that Joseph Smith was a man controlled by a spirit of deception. Just a few minutes research will show you that this deception has continued unabated right through to the present day & will continue in that vein until such time as that deception is dealt with. Now here’s my second question to you. Are you prepared to put your life in the hands of men who have practised deception for their entire lives & who may be oppressed by a deceiving spirit or will you put your life in Christ’s hands?
Cattyjane. If you are sincere then please stop trying to run before you can walk, as I said above understanding will come, perhaps in a flood perhaps gradually, a little at a time. Have nothing to do with any organization that claims to have a monopoly on the truth or which promotes ‘conditional salvation’ e.g. do as we say or else. Don’t concern yourself with the things you don’t understand. Stop looking for ‘off the peg answers’ of the kind that cults specialise in, it’s that kind of mindset that probably led you to the LDS in the first place. Put whatever trust you have in the God of the Bible & for now let your motto be ‘keep it simple’ As Tozer once said
“God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, “0 Lord, Thou knowest.” Those things belong to the deep and mysterious Profound of God’s omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints.”
Here’s the site that quote is from, you may find helpful.
The answers will come when you are ready for them but first you have to trust God enough to give them to you. All here will be praying for you.
Could this mean there are translation issues? I doubt it because these statements are diametrically opposed to each other.
The first thing to realize is that these accounts are in the very same book and are written by the very same author.
Luke was a lot of things but no one would claim that he was stupid. He and the people who he sent his book to (Theophilus and his companions) obviously did not think the statements were contradictory. This is also true of the early church as a whole or Acts would not be in our Bibles.
So any apparent contradiction we see here must be the result of a misunderstanding of the text on our part. This is just common sense
Here is a link that resolves the issue in a few short paragraphs
See how simple that was.
From what I’ve understood from the links you’ve placed previously(Jews for Judaism):
1. The video, and additional material has some truth.
2. However, most of the truth is mixed in with opinion, not fact. (E.g. What could have been, rather than what was)
3. There’s a slippery slope with most of what is shared. (E.g. double standard)
I’m going to summarize this and post either tonight or tomorrow morning. Thanks for your patience.
I was definitely scared when everyone started talking about the interviews with the bishop. I could not imagine my daughter being interviewed like that. That is actually what scared me into not returning to the LDS church. I never had much of a testimony about the church except for my baptism experience. I wasn’t immersed in the church like many people here. I haven’t attended very often in the last couple of years. I mostly just went for special occasions and women’s meeting. I don’t think as far as a belief I can really tie myself to a specific faith anymore. I have a few beliefs that I stand on but I think they are hanging by a thread after some of the stuff that I have found out. Im not lying when I say that I want to know the truth about what or who God is. I want to know that when I die that Im going to be in heaven but what Im finding out is that every single faith is full of nothing more than opinion. The more searching that I have done the farther away from God I feel that I am getting. I am so irritated with all of this that I am ready to throw in the towel. I know everyone on here has tried to help me and Im sure Im a complete disappointment but its hard to trust all of the scriptures that everyone posts when I don’t have a lot of trust in the bible anymore at least not in the NT. Can you find any scriptures on salvation by grace through faith alone that was not written by the apostle paul in the NT? Because I cant. So now JS is not a prophet and his restored gospel is fake and his divine revelation is a lie. Paul also had a gospel of his own and also had a divine revelation and also claimed he received apostleship from god. This seems very similar to JS to me. Why would I leave one supposed lie just to fall into another that is a mirror image of the first? I think the Jewish faith is the closest to the original faith established by God but I know it isn’t the whole truth. Im sorry that you are upset at me. Ive been actively searching the find the truth for almost a year now. I highly doubt that I am going to have the ah ha moment. I wish that would happen but I think if it was going to, than It would have already happened. If I read the NT from front to back without considering any other evidence as proof that it was accurate and by only placing faith in it as the word of God, it would be no different than if I read the book of Mormon and placed my faith in it as the word of God without any evidence as proof of it being an accurate document. There are three other documents that are considered to be true writings of the apostles that are not included in the bible. Some of these writings show that Paul was not regarded as a trusted apostle of God by John and Peter. If you know anything about these documents being untrustworthy than let me know. But I think they are accurate as far as I can tell: Clementine Homilies or the Gospel of the Holy Twelve or the Gospels of the Nag Hammodi.
I don’t know about that argument. Im not going to say Ive changed my mind on the issue just because of that one source. I still think its odd. I think if he meant to refer to something different than he would have said it differently.
Thanks. Do you know anything about those three texts that I spoke about to OldMan?
I’ll try to respond to all your points but not in any particular order, forgive me if I miss anything
First of all let me say that I am not in any way upset with you, who am I that I should be upset because you’re uncertain or confused? I don’t have a doctorate in theology; I’m not an expert on anything in particular. Sure I can quote passages of Scripture at you, as can we all but in the main I believe that the Gospel of Christ is simplicity itself.
You compare the experiences of Joseph Smith to the conversion of Paul so let me assure you that there is no comparison, none at all. I don’t want to go too deeply into why I say that but I will compare just a couple of things. Paul was not alone when Christ appeared to him; there were witnesses to the events. Smith was alone & there are several contradictory accounts of his so-called vision. Smith apparently wasn’t affected in any way by his ‘vision’ & didn’t tell anyone about it until years later, rather odd don’t you think? Paul however was blinded by what he saw & immediately told of his experience. Pauls writings came directly from God, & nothing he said contradicts what is found in the old testament whereas Smiths ‘restoration’ is nothing more than a garbled mix of old testament law, the writings of the Swedish heretic Emanuel Swedenborg, the weird beliefs of his fellow conspirator Sidney Rigdon & his own vivid imagination.
“The more searching that I have done the farther away from God I feel that I am getting. I am so irritated with all of this that I am ready to throw in the towel. I know everyone on here has tried to help me and Im sure Im a complete disappointment but its hard to trust all of the scriptures that everyone posts when I don’t have a lot of trust in the bible anymore at least not in the NT.”
You are NOT a complete disappointment, not in any way. I do understand where you’re coming from & I do understand a little of what you feel. I’m sure that all of us have been down that road at some point in our lives. All I can say in response is this; perhaps you’re trying too hard. You have done all you feel you can do & nothing is happening. You want to give up because of the things you are unable to grasp, please don’t take offence at this but that is your human pride at work.
Well my dear, it’s now time to stop striving, time to stop trying to reach God through your own understanding. Do you remember when you were a young child, do you remember your parents telling you about the world & do you remember how you trusted them? I know I trusted my parents & for me at that time everything they said was the truth. Well catty, that’s how we all must be in our attitude towards God. Instead of reaching out to Him in our own understanding we must allow him to reach out to us. We must become as children & accept with the trust of our childhood. When we can do that then we can begin to grow into the kind of people God intends us to be.
“I think the Jewish faith is the closest to the original faith established by God but I know it isn’t the whole truth.”
I think if you were to study the Old Testament you will find that it talks about Christ. The events recounted there could in some ways be considered a ‘prologue’ to the New Covenant. Paul used the ‘old’ to prove the ‘new’ read Acts 17:11-12
I don’t really know anything about the ‘other documents you mention aside from what I can find online. I have done a little checking & as far as I can see they are all fables, romances or things written in a deliberate attempt to draw people away from the truth. I’m sure that others here will be able to give you a more detailed explanation. The only thing I will briefly say is this. If Christians do have the truth then obviously there will be forces at work attempting to deny that truth. The wise thing to do would be to examine all apocryphal works in that light.
You asked me “can you find any scripture on salvation through grace that wasn’t written by Paul”?
Yes I can, I can find it in the words of Christ & for now this single verse will suffice.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believed in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life” John 3:16
That verse is often called ‘the Gospel in a nutshell’ & basically it’s all we need to know, at least for the start of our journey. Christ is clearly saying in that single verse that all you need is belief in him & what He accomplished, it doesn’t mention any laws there is no ‘you must do this or you must do that’. That verse is a clear & simple enunciation of salvation through faith in Christ.
This is where Christianity is different to every other belief system including the LDS. We don’t need those rules & laws, all we need is Christ & through the indwelling of the Spirit we will learn the things of God, we will grow in understanding & in Grace.
Did the Apostles have a Bible? Of course they didn’t, they were taught directly by the Holy Spirit. In case you think I’m telling you we don’t need our Bibles I’m not, the Apostles wrote down what they were given so that we might know about Gods plan of redemption, what I am trying to say is that by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit things we have never understood become clear, ‘our eyes are opened’ 1 John 2:26-27
My dear catty, it’s all so simple but far too often our pride will not allow us to accept such simplicity, our pride turns our gaze away from Christ & we look inward at ourselves, to our own abilities. In our pride we want to be able to save ourselves or at least contribute something to it; but we can’t, everything that needed to be done has been done. Salvation is a finished work, it was finished on the cross & all we need to do, indeed, all we can do, is open our hearts & minds to the one who did that work.
We are & will be praying for you catty.
I don’t know about that argument. Im not going to say Ive changed my mind on the issue just because of that one source. I still think its odd. I think if he meant to refer to something different than he would have said it differently.
I think you should listen to the advise of everyone here. I’m not saying that you should give up looking for answers I’m saying you should give up striving to find the truth by your own effort.
Trust Jesus. He is the answer to all your questions. You need to believe that. If the truth is not found in Jesus it is not to be found anywhere
Once you trust Jesus I think you’ll find the pieces falling into place. You might not find a particular answer that is given to be pleasing to your tastes but you should lean on Christ and trust that he can and will do what is right by you.
If you know anything about these documents being untrustworthy than let me know. But I think they are accurate as far as I can tell: Clementine Homilies or the Gospel of the Holy Twelve or the Gospels of the Nag Hammodi.
The first thing you need to know is none of the “lost scriptures” are from the first century. So none of them can claim to be written by the Apostles or their companions. It’s that simple
The only first century documents we have are those found in the Bible. Those are just the facts, all scholars would agree with that statement. That alone disqualifies them as NT documents.
I’ve read most of these writings and for what it’s worth I find them to be wackadoddle like they are written while on drugs or something.
The just can’t compare to the simple lucid Gospels and letters of the NT.
one more thing
I ask you to take a step back and think about how your approach so far has worked for you. and consider this advise
Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.
“I want to know that when I die that Im going to be in heaven but what Im finding out is that every single faith is full of nothing more than opinion. The more searching that I have done the farther away from God I feel that I am getting. I am so irritated with all of this that I am ready to throw in the towel.”
I just came through a period wherein I was not far from this belief. Frankly, after discussing faith with those from other faiths, it started to seem like they all kind of ran together some how, and since nothing can be verified one way or the other, we are left with opinions, or the hope that our faith is the right one. That didn’t settle with me well. I never stopped believing, but my faith was shaken. I had to pull back a bit.
Step back about 20 years ago, when I was in college, I found myself really wanting to be good, and really wanting my life to get better. But the more I struggled, the more I sank into the depths of depravity in terms of sin. It hit me that the more I wanted to be in control, the more I struggled. But the more I stepped back, and relied on God, the better things became.
It has always been a struggle on the control, but it was not until about three four years ago that the control issue over came me again. I had to reteach myself that it is better to step out of the way. And there is so much information out there that is critical to Christian, and LDS, faith. I do suggest you read it and be aware of it. I think it is important information to know for a variety of reasons, but when we let it cloud our own perceptions rather than allowing God to clear it up, we are lost.
We can only see when we allow God to work in us. When we try to figure things out, we inevitably goof it up. And specifically, one of things I currently struggle with in belief is in allowing God to rule vs. my faith being an intellectual exercise. Its tough, but I do know that God is there to help me and always there to welcome me if I stray away. There’s power in that.
Now, the reason I believe in Christianity rather than the LDS brand is that there are far too many things wrong with LDS history and theology, even apart from how they relate to the Bible. I’ll spare the detail on that, but share the sentiment that just because we are guided by faith does not mean that reason and logic are irrelevant. They are very relevant. Its just that we should never forget that we are not in control.
Its good to know that someone understands where I am at and im glad that you were able to find a place of peace when you walked in my shoes. My question is this….if you finally just decided that lds was wrong and you couldnt make out what.path was correct than what made you make your final decision? Did you just draw straws and say im trusting god that the ideas in this path are correct and you let go or what? How do you know you made the right choice? If there is all this info out there that says the lds church is wrong and there is just as much info to say the christian church is wrong than which info do I decide to obey and who becomes a reliable source? It really is a risk no matter how you look at it. Its taking a chance of being wrong and sacrificing your soul.( If any of it ends up being true at all.)
There are some good comments by MJP, fifth monarchy man and also others.
Before I deal with your feelings about Paul the Apostle, I’ll enlist the help of an OT Reference.
“Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.
He said to the woman, “(1)Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, (2)“We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”(Gen. 3:1-5, ESV)
2. God said something to the first man and woman
1. Satan caused man/woman to doubt God’s original word
The devil will use all tactics possible to doubt the original word of God. If you feel that the NT is false (at least as far as the apostle Paul), then perhaps you can ask the question, am I doubting God’s word?
To answer that appropriately, you must ask this question: Are there appropriate grounds to doubt God’s word or is most of what I understand (regarding doubts about the Apostle Paul)conjecture?
I’m going to precede my next posts with this: the videos, and evidence you have listed rely heavily on conjecture and opinion. There’s very little truth in what is listed there. I will identify how you can find a difference between opinion and fact.
I totally understand where you’re coming from, with your belief system hanging by a thread, it’s not a fun place to be. But hang in there and keeping searching for the truth. God is real, and He will ultimately guide you through to it.
I’m finishing up with that video link and will be posting shortly. I do apologize as I was to post earlier but endured a power shortage and I post from a machine not a mobile device.
In the Acts of the Apostles and Peter’s writings, there are a few things that are interesting. The first thing is that Luke documents Paul/Saul as a legitimate Apostle:
1. Saul was set aside by the Holy Spirit through the church at Antioch.
“Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a lifelong friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.” (Acts 13:1-3,cf v4 ESV)
2. Barnabas was sent from the church at Jerusalem to seek out Saul
“The report of this came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. So Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.”(Acts 11:22.25-26 ESV) ”
Note from this, that Paul/Saul and Barnabas taught those in Antioch and they were first called Christians there.
3. There are numerous instances where Paul/Saul and Barnabas are doing God’s word as recorded by Luke (Acts 13-15).
4. The Apostle Peter acknowledges Paul’s writings as hard to understand, but warns against distorting or not acknowledging Paul’s teachings.
“Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in (a)all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand(b), which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and (c)lose your own stability.(2 Peter 3:15-17)
a. Peter states that the Apostle Paul has wisdom given to him, in all his letters
b. Peter himself has difficulty understanding Paul’s writings, but doesn’t negate them
c. Instead, Peter states that if someone ‘twists’ or misinterprets Paul’s writings it will be to their own destruction
There seems to be little doubt that Peter authenticates Paul’s writings. Were the writings of Paul corrupted in any way, shape or form? If they were, there would be ample evidence, as they were copied over thousands of manuscripts, into different languages and countries. There is no evidence of that. Therefore through the science of textual criticism we can know that what we have today is still what Paul wrote over 2000 years ago. God’s word stands forever, it cannot fail (Isaiah 40:8, 1 Peter 1:25).
Here we have another important NT figure authenticating Paul’s writings and his authority.
5. Apostle Peter explains that this gospel will stand forever, and was preached to them:
“for ‘All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever.’ And this word is the good news that was preached to you.” (1 Peter 24-25)
6. Apostle Luke records Paul talking about the the gospel of grace: (cf 1 Peter 1:3-10, ESV)
“But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.” (Acts 20:24, ESV)
7. Apostle Peter states salvation comes through grace:
“But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”(Acts 15:11 ESV)
So I hope this helps, and this is an intermediate post, whereas I’ll follow through with what I promised a little later. Ask questions, CattyJane if you have more of them.
I’ll deal with the so called lost books of the Bible and apocryphal works also in a summary.
Im not going to post on here anymore. RickB has my email address. I know he has posted his on this site. You can get my email from him. Im interested in what you are finding about this stuff. And it seems to me like you actually looked at what I posted…Im kinda surprised by that because it was a lot. I know I seem very negative but Im just very angry and frustrated with all of this. Thanks for you help.
Catty, what made me choose my faith? I’ll be very brief with an answer, but the Bible is historically reliable. I do believe there is a god, and because of the historical reliability of the Bible, I trust it on spiritual matters. Compared with the BoM, it is the far more accurate book in terms of history and prophecy.
It saddens me that you have decided not to post again just as it saddens me that you didn’t appear to read my last post, if you had there might have been a different response from you. I told you I understood where you were coming from & I showed you how your dilemma could be resolved, not through the use of LDS doctrine or beliefs & not by looking for answers that at this moment in time you’re not going to find. If you refer back to what I said (posted on May 17 at 4:11) you might notice that I used only 3 quotes from Scripture & all of them were used simply to illustrate what I was trying to get across to you. I’m not going to go through it all again, it’s there for you to read should you choose to do so.
If you believe there is a God who has revealed himself to Mankind then I suggest you do this. Forget anything you learned from the LDS, forget if you wish, anything you have seen in here, go back to the beginning & look to God. Humble yourself; cry out to Him & he will hear you, STOP LOOKING for answers, they are to be found but first you need to know God & He is not to be found through human reasoning. That route involves pride & it is pride that creates the gulf between man & his maker.
Finally I’ll repeat the closing remarks from my post.
“My dear catty, it’s all so simple but far too often our pride will not allow us to accept such simplicity, our pride turns our gaze away from Christ & we look inward at ourselves, to our own abilities. In our pride we want to be able to save ourselves or at least contribute something to it; but we can’t, everything that needed to be done has been done. Salvation is a finished work, it was finished on the cross & all we need to do, indeed, all we can do, is open our hearts & minds to the one who did that work.”
I’ll email Rick.
Rikkij, I will send it later, I am taking a class right now for conceal and carry. I will get it to you sometime after class. I also want to spesk with you about something I cannot here.
Ok very good. For the benefit of others, I will post what I email CattyJane in terms of a response to the questions she has asked here. This is so that information wise, all will benefit (I hope).
Initial Response (Summary) Jews for Judaism Video.
1. Rabbi Skobac appeals to prooftexting, however he too uses prooftexting (perhaps without realizing it). E.g. “My God, my god why have you forsaken me?” (02:09, 05:55) The Rabbi then makes mention that disciples inserted ‘Jesus’ words into the Scriptures. If this is so, how do we know that they didn’t insert “My God, my god why have you forsaken me?” into the scriptures. Regrettably for him, the Rabbi doesn’t provide empirical evidence but pre-suppositions, and uses words such as “Probably”(06:45), “I believe” – these are not arguments from hard fact.
2. He also appeals to a completely unacceptable idea and also an invisible idea (faith and forgiveness) (13:20). But the flipside of that is that in Judaism faith and forgiveness are also invisible, you cannot know that you are forgiven. I do not knock faith and forgiveness as an invisible concept. I acknowledge it, I’m just calling the Rabbi on a double standard: what he holds to be true, yet he attacks it if others use the same concept.
3. Rabbi Skobac says (06:17) that Jesus doesn’t scream “Mission Accomplished”, but Jesus does: “When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.” (John 19:30, ESV).
I will stop at this point simply because although it appears that the video has a strong semblance of intellectual arguments, but upon closer inspection – it’s conjecture and a lot of opinion, very little fact. I don’t want to list too long an explanation, simply because this is off topic and I’d like to make it an easy read. I’ll also post this to your email, CattyJane.
Correction on 1, Rabbi appeals against prooftexting not appealing to. Apologies.