Let me intensify/exaggerate things for a moment for the sake of a point:
Imagine you are in a room with a dozen people deeply, negatively, emotionally, spiritually impacted by Kimball’s Miracle of Forgiveness, and you are the only Mormon who outright rejects the book and understands that the real repentance that brings forgiveness is not so perfectionistic, but immediately available and more of a simple, imperfect change of heart-orientation (which doesn’t guarantee the sin won’t be committed again).
Now imagine that an evangelical walks in the room and, with a sense of spiritual compassion and zeal for the gospel, starts engaging the theological orientation of the dozen Kimball-infected Mormons, and you chime up and totally distract the evangelicals from the Kimballite theology and instead get them to interact with BYU professor Stephen Robinson’s theology as though it is somehow more representative of the religion you are in.
That ends up being cruel. It defends a version of Mormonism at the expense of dealing—with integrity and openness—with the stark reality of the common Mormon individuals.
It’s great that some Mormons, for example, reject traditional Lorenzo Snow couplet theology, and positively affirm that God was always God and never had a change in character (being consistent with Moroni 8:18). But if the elephant in the room—the existence of mainstream Mormonism—-isn’t explicitly and openly addressed, then I think it’s a part of cold-heartedness that Jesus wants no part of.
Part of what I desire so much is that neo-orthodox Mormons show that they really love their fellow Mormons by engaging in a serious and open social activism for reformation within their community, even if that takes making the Church institution not look as reliable as is commonly assumed.
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.” (John 21:17)
A Reformation in Mormonism? Sorry Aaron it won't happen. These folks are going to have to trip on over to one of the other forms of Mormonism not of the Salt Lake City variety. But then if they jump ship for say the CoC group then they'd have to give up the becoming a god venture. Becoming a god IS the SLC Mormon program. A Mormon can't get to be a god without "doing all they can do" and that means beating their heads against the wall everyday trying to accomplish the impossible.
But Mormonism isn't Christianity so any movement toward the orthodox Christian view of God's love, mercy, forgiveness and grace is inconsistent with the end game of Mormonism.
Back we go to the primary question, "Who is God?" The Mormon god is not the God revealed in the Bible. The Mormon god is one conjured up by Joseph Smith, with or without the benefit of his magic rock.
Engaging a Mormon in a discussion about "grace" and forgiveness is futile because they're not Christians. They're something else. They can't even begin to understand what we're talking about because their frame of reference is totally different (from ours).
There is no such thing as Mormon neo-orthodoxy. It's just wishful thinking by a bunch of folks who have no authority to do anything. They need to just fall in line with those who have been chosen by the Morg. to receive revelation.
Engaging a Mormon in a discussion about "grace" and forgiveness is futile because they're not Christians.
This is so true. Mormons get so upset if you suggest that they don't have to "work" for their salvation. I'm always told that Christians believe this so they have free reign to sin. Understanding the Word of God now, I get it, nothing could be farther than the truth. They don't understand because they aren't Christian, they're mormon. With a whole different set of beliefs and doctrines.
I had my first experiences with a mormon apologist on another blog several months ago. He's actually affiliated with FAIR. I have to say that the way he twists and spins things is really upsetting to me. I've since checked out FAIR and FARMS and the stuff on those sites are so foreign to me. I've never heard most of it. In fact the way I was brought up in mormonism is in direct contradiction to that. So Aaron has a great point here. Sending questioners to an apologist is very cruel. If you want to know about mormonism, what is and isn't taught, then go to everyday mormons, not a mormon apologist! They skirt the truth and outright lie! Not only that, they try to make the everyday mormon out to be the liar! All while the LDS leadership sits back and watches, claiming that neither the apologists nor the everyday mormon's beliefs are "Official." How can anyone know what is official LDS doctrine if the leaders from the prophet on down can't be honest about it? I didn't realize how dishonest the LDS church is.
Matthew 7:22,23
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Kate, Falcon, I think I know what you're trying to say about engaging a Mormon on the issue of grace,
but I also know that there are multitudes of rank and file Mormons that are just dying to hear the message
of the cross, the grace of God available thru faith in Jesus Christ alone. I think these sincere Mormons
are disillusioned with trying to meet the standards that have been established by their prophets and
apostles. They love God but just can't measure up to these rules etc. If they can hear the liberating truth
of the grace of God , then the Holy Spirit can move in their hearts. We owe them that . I know all of us
here will continue to love them and pray for receptive hearts.
ww
Just for fun google "New Order Mormon" and go and visit their blog. I was just going through their posts on "eternal progression". I found it all very interesting because here we have all of these transitional Mormon types kicking around a topic and discussing whether or not Joseph Smith really taught it and if it's "official" doctrine of the Mormon religion. I was tempted to jump in, especially when someone brought up the Council of Nicea but decided that participation in one blog is about all I can handle.
Any way, are these New Order Mormons neoMormans?. Kate's post above regarding what is taught and what is believed by individuals within Mormonism certainly comes to life with these New Order folks.
There is a reason why Mormonism, for many, is an open slate upon which to write. First of all one of the attractions of early Mormons to Joseph Smith's religion was that he told people that they could receive messages/revelation directly from God. That had a lot of appeal in part, I believe, because there's a kind of empowerment with such a belief and practice. The end result, however, was that Smith had overly-empowered his followers and he had to walk his message back some. If these people who were following him could receive direct messages from God why was his (Smith's) revelations any more viable than their's? The book "Under the Banner of Heaven" presents a picture of what happens when men supposedly start hearing messages and developing followings based on these revelations.
WW,
There are sincere Mormons who are disillusioned with trying to meet the standards that have been established by their prophets and apostles. The sad thing is that most have heard the message of the Cross. The LDS leadership from Joseph Smith on down have belittled the message of the Cross and passed it along to members. Spencer W. Kimball said in his book The Miracle of Forgiveness that "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." This quote is published in the BoM manual used by the LDS church today. There are many quotes like this that Mormons see and are taught. The way that Mormonism is set up, if you don't agree or are having a hard time believing something, then it's you who has the problem. You need to repent and ask the Lord to reveal the truth to you. Keep asking until you get the "burning in the bosom" the church is perfect, but the members are not, and so on. Another stumbling block for questioning Mormons is fear. I was so sure that I was going to hell for the entire first year of researching. I refused to look at anything that wasn't church approved. Fortunately, the church's own publications spill the beans. I really didn't have to read anything not church approved. Yes things were hidden, like the Journal of Discourses. I didn't know they existed until I was 38 and when I brought that up to my mom who is in her 60's, she hadn't heard of them either. I'll bet a lot of Mormons aren't aware of them, among other things. I'm talking about active Mormons too. All the hush, hush and secrecy should be the first clue of practicing Mormons. I used to laugh when I would hear or read that Mormonism is a cult, but after stepping back and really looking at it, cult is exactly what it is.
“A Reformation in Mormonism? Sorry Aaron it won’t happen.”
I agree that in the end, Mormonism needs a restoration, not a mere reformation. Its fundamental claims and historical trajectory and focus on modern prophets and apostles simply don’t allow for a reversal of affairs back to the Mormonism of 1830, etc. There’s no going back without some radical, disruptive shake-ups.
But my point is that if someone really does believe they have the true Mormonism (their brand of Mormon neo-orthodoxy), and if they aren’t willing to leave the Church, they ought to take the situation seriously enough to make a valiant, gutsy, gospel-impassioned attempt at reformation—out of love for people and passion for the truth.
The point is that neo-orthodox Mormons try to make Mormonism “work” for themselves individually, by significantly stripping down, or re-envisionining it, all the while mostly turning a blind eye to the fact that most Mormons aren’t so “uncorrelated”. Most Mormons are drowning in the ocean of Mormon correlation and tradition, while neo-orthodox Mormons play along while sitting on their supposed Oasis Island. It seems cruel.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
So if there's no Scriptural support for a doctrinal position, it doesn't really matter in the world of revelation according to Mormonism. All that's necessary is that someone "think" something, "feel it" and report that the thought was inspired by the Holy Ghost. Now supposedly there is a hierarchy in the Mormon administrative flow-chart where by the guys at the top of the chart get to have the super revelations. The rank and file get to have revelations that what the chart toppers say is true.
However now and then some Mormons go off message so to speak. I think that's what the neo-Mormons and the New Order Mormons are doing. This is partly due because there are a lot of things in Mormonism that are just hanging out there. On the blog I was looking at, one of the contributors was saying that becoming a god really means becoming like god in character. It was even postulated that Joseph Smith's talking point on the matter during the King Follett discourse didn't really mean what (Smith said) and had never really been doctrinated (my invented word). Others disagreed.
I remember the quote by the BYU professor: "In Mormonism you can believe whatever you want, you just can't teach it." At the end of the day what really matters is that a Mormon pay their tithe and not become too vocal. There are Mormons who, according to one bishop (secondary source) said that he was embarrassed by what some of his Mormon brethren say.
If there is/was a reformation in Mormonism, it came when groups like the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Temple Lot group were formed. These folks weren't buying the Joseph Smith inspired and Brigham Young continuation of doctrine that swerved way off of the original track of Mormonism.
There are at least two things I can think of that I suppose could be considered SLC Mormonism reformation and that was the dumping of polygamy and blacks in the priesthood. In the cases of these two things the social pressures were just too much for the SLC group to handle. The FLDS has been true to Smith so in some ways the "one true church" of Mormonism doesn't really exist. The truth of Mormonism, it seems, is fluid and negotiable.
falcon,
The truth of Mormonism, it seems, is fluid and negotiable.
Wow, this is news to me. Living in the "trenches" so to speak, certainly didn't feel like this. We had lesson books and the ensign and a general conference in which we were told what to think. Of course general conference now is just good advice like don't look at pornography, be kind, stay out of debt, etc. I wasn't aware that I was allowed to think whatever I wanted. We had the articles of faith and gospel principles and lessons of the prophets taught in relief society. One thing I've learned in the past 3 years is that Mormonism isn't what it used to be. The Mormonism of today is a whole different thing. I'm not so sure that older Mormons have caught on to that yet. In fact everyone I know still lives it the way we always have. When I talk to them about some of this stuff, and what apologists are saying ,they don't believe me. They won't look it up either. It's just frustrating.
You know, Thomas Monson could put an end to all of this. If he would just have the courage to stand up and tell the world what official Mormon doctrine is.
Aaron,
Ahh, I understand more of what you are saying now. The problem is, if a Mormon makes valiant, gusty, gospel-impassioned attempts at reformation……they risk excommunication. Who is going to believe an excommunicated member over the church. It's very frightening and not something that non-mormons fully understand. I could have asked to be excommunicated like others that I know, but I chose to resign because I don't want that stigma and my community thinking that I have done something wrong and therefore judging and shunning me. I guess rather than face that, people just try and "make it work for themselves individually."
Dear Kate,
Thanks for sharing your story. I've enjoyed your posts.
Here is a quotation you may find interesting:
"Nothing can take away sin except the grace of God. … The world brands this a pernicious doctrine. The world advances free will, the rational and natural approach of good works, as the means of obtaining the forgiveness of sin. But it is impossible to gain peace of conscience by the methods and means of the world. Experience proves this."
Who said this? Martin Luther did, way back in the 1500s as part of his commentary on the book of Galatians. He knew well the failed effort of trying to find forgiveness of sins in oneself.
As you have found, the world still regards the cross and grace much as it did during what some call "the Dark Ages." The message of the cross is the power of God. But people can speak about "the power of God" while burying the cross under a mountain of legalism. And speak about "the Savior" while dismissing those who have actually been saved by Jesus Christ.
In a world of smoke and mirrors, I'm so grateful for the Bible, which reveals God's great love for me and his provision of salvation in Christ.
What I meant is that it's tough to nail down Mormonism because of progressive revelation. When we look at the history of Mormonism from the beginning with Joseph Smith to today, there is truth that gets down-graded and some truth even thrown on the scrap heap. I believe BY is sitting on that heap bodily because his truth has become so embarrassing. There are Mormons who just go along to get along who negotiate their own version of Mormon truth.
falcon,
Yeah, I get what you mean. I was being a little sarcastic. 🙂 Sometimes it's hard to tell what people mean through this kind of communication. You make a very good point.
Kate, I really appreciate hearing of your experience as a faithful Mormon, I never get tired of
hearing testimonies of people like yourself who God has delivered from a false prophet
organization. My journey into ministering to the Mormon people began with noticing , as you
touched on, that there were important doctrines and facts about their history that were just
not being admitted by Mormons who were in a position to know etc. I read much of this is
publications by ex- Mormons, but wanting to make sure I spent a lot of money purchasing
books by Mormon leaders ( in 1978 bought the JofD [ $ 120 ] ) , wrote letters, talked with
many Missionaries, all to give Mormons a fair shake and find out about Mormonism. I found
Mormon prophets and apostles to be sincere and moral minded men but their teachings on
God and other vital doctrines were so foreign to what apostles in the N.T. church taught ,
therefore they were false teachers. I'm glad to see you on this blog. God bless you.My wife
and I are praying for your family.
Aaron, I think you bring out some valid points. It seems for many many years that Mormons have
tried so hard to be accepted as a Christian church, yet poll after poll reveals that the general public
is still not so sure . There's been so much exposure of Mormonism's " unique" doctrines by ex-LDS
and through ministries like this one that it has resulted in a significant number of Mormons to either
down-play these doctrines or in the case of some, to deny them altogether. There's way to many
Mormons, especially here in America, that just don't think their leaders are consistently hearing
from God despite the claims to the contrary. Because of family or job security these Mormons sit
in Conf. and reluctantly raise their hands to sustain their leaders. I can't help but believe that in just
a few years theres going to be a major division that breaks out in the Church because this group of
Mormons are going to stand up and be vocal. This " believe what you want but be quiet about it "
group is not going to be quiet very much longer. May all the Mormon people seek out Jesus – Heb 7:25
I wonder if Gordon B. Hinkley was one of these neo-Mormons? What did he say on Larry King Live when asked about the men to gods doctrine? "I don't know that we ever taught that." or "I don't know that we teach that." It was something like that. So what makes us think for a moment that a Mormon prophet even knows much about Mormon doctrine. Why shouldn't these neo-types just make-up their own doctrine. There is no systematic theology in Mormonism. It's pretty much a fly-by-the-seat of your pants program. Doctrine can change at any time so why shouldn't the average Mormon engage in a little speculation?
falcon, It must be an emotionally trying period in the lives of those LDS who have come to realize that
their prophet and apostles have been not consistently relaying God's will to them. What do they do ?
Do they stay in the church and go through the motions of submitting to these men, or leave ? For
those of them that are troubled at some of the doctrinal teachings of their prophet, they are not on
new ground ,as many LDS who submitted to prophet Brigham Young were troubled at some of his
doctrines which he claimed God to have revealed to him. [ side note: in Gal.1:7 Paul warns that
false teachers preach a gospel that will trouble the unwary ] For those LDS who just can't shake
the control on their lives that their leaders exert , may they soon come to make that life changing
decision of leaving these false teachers behind and making a complete break by coming to Jesus.
Aaron,
Amen to not distracting others from the truth!
The saddest thing, it seems to me, and the crux of the problem, is this: if Satan can keep the minds of people (Mormon or otherwise) off of the pure, undiluted truth, then Satan will have those who don't trust fully and only in Jesus Christ for their salvation, just as surely in his grasp, whether the lie they believe is that they can become gods or is a lie that appears, to some, to be more palatable.
The truth is that:
1) Jesus, according to His own words, is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no man comes to the Father but by Him, (John 14:6)
2) Jesus, according to other portions of the Word of God, the Bible, is the only way by which we must be saved – Acts 4:12, NKJV, Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
3) Hell is real and will not just be the home of a few but of many – Matthew 7:13-14, NKJV – 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Immediately after these two verses, Jesus warns about false prophets!)
4) further, that the majority of mankind will not wind up in some form of heaven – terrestrial, telestial, celestial, as Mormonism teaches – Matthew 7:21-23, NKJV – 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
5) that the punishment, not just the place (Hell) will be eternal – Matthew 25: 41-43, NKJV – 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
6) that God says, in Isaiah 44:6, NKJV – “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. AND Isaiah 43:10-11, NKJV, 10 “ You are My witnesses,” says the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
Rather than distracting others with discussions about whether the lie someone believes is less damning than the lie someone else believes, one needs to seek (and to present to others, if one is saved), the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, as it is presented in the Bible.
New King James Version (NKJV) Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
It's kind of funny that Mormons believe and preach that the Bible, the Word of God, has been corrupted and can't be trusted. On the other hand they follow leaders who are all over the map with their inconsistent proclamations and confusing mess of doctrinal revelations. And Mormons say that their church is perfect?
The one thing that would provide Mormons with the truth and the pathway to salvation is what they basically reject. It's amazing how Mormons want to shred the Bible to pieces but will stretch credulity to the breaking point in defense of a spiritually corrupted church and it's leaders.
Mormons are kept in bondage by a system that demands their total devotion and loyalty. Knowing Jesus in a personal way brings forgiveness and peace with God. Made-made-religion is cruel and unrelenting in its demands. God demands only that we believe in Him and His Christ and in believing experience newness of life.
WW, and falcon,
Great points. As I was reading these posts I was thinking that maybe there are some Mormons who are troubled at the teachings, but honestly I don't know of any. They may be keeping it private and just going through the motions I don't know. I can say that before I found the article about the BoA and knew that something wasn't right, I didn't question anything. If things were changing, it was done so subtly that I didn't notice. I was taught to just follow the prophet no matter what. When he thinks the thinking has been done for you and that you do whatever he says, it's none of your business if it's right or wrong. I just lived my life blissfully unaware. I didn't get too much into the Bible because it wasn't translated correctly and I thought it would just confuse me anyways. I wonder how many Mormons are just like I was. I know that my friends and family are exactly the way I was. Another thing that bothers me is how Mormons almost worship the prophet. I just have to ask (again) Where is Christ in any of that?
Brian,
Thanks for this quote by Martin Luther. It's amazing to me how people living in the 1500's were going through the exact same struggles as we are today. You would think that the world would "get it" by now! I'm with you, I'm grateful for the Bible. It's strange for me to think that the Bible has been there for me all of my life, all I needed to do was open it. I guess that's what happens when you give your senses over to a so called prophet and a multi billion dollar corporation. I'm so grateful for the Lord leading me out. There is such freedom in Christ.
WW,
Thanks, I appreciate your prayers 🙂 I have to say that you have been dedicated! I have wondered how Christians who minister to Mormons keep their patience. I get so frustrated!
"I found Mormon prophets and apostles to be sincere and moral minded men"
I have to comment on this because I have been thinking about the prophets and how they must know that they are not seeing the Lord and not communing with him. Think about it. This is such deception in my mind. They have to KNOW they aren't. How can they get up in front of millions at Conference to relay what they have gotten from the Lord. It's all so deceitful. This makes me think they aren't so morally minded. What are your thoughts on this?
Kate, getting frustrated with talking to Mormons is'nt unusual . We all desire for them to come to see
that they're following a false prophet. When the conversation turns into a verbal volleyball match, it is
easy to get frustrated.I learned something many years ago that has helped me , and that is
understanding that these precious people are blind, spiritually blind. If a physically blind person
bumped into you would you tell them to watch where they're going ? Of course not. They are blind
and really can't help it. Likewise, LDS are blind, so when they refuse to hear you or treat you as a
"opposer" , remember that you can't really expect them to act any different. Asking Jesus for grace
to help in your witnessing is a key. Witnessing to family can be very difficult, so LOVE them always.
As far as Mormon leaders being moral people, I think by and large they are ( Joseph Smith and
his chasing after women is an exception) . I could have tempered my statement somewhat , as you
rightly mentioned that these men are most likely hiding things( in their archives that would tend to
shed some diffferent light on what rank and file LDS have been taught about certain aspects of their
history etc.) These leaders are going to judged by God for their claims. But I strongly believe that
the average Mormon is striving to serve God out of a sincere heart , but their leaders are roadblocks
in their lives preventing them from acquiring a complete relationship with God thru Jesus–Heb 7:25
Kate , your description of your submission to God's " modern day prophet " reminded me of my
wife's loyalty to her prophet. As a submissive servant of Jehovah, she worked hard at going door
to door speading the message that Jehovah has a modern day "Jeremiah " , a prophet through
whom alone He reveals spiritual truth to mankind. She had heard rumors of all the doctrinal
changes and failed date settings for Christ's return issued by her early leaders but this did'nt bother
her as she knew it was her duty to follow , not make policy ! So when the teachings about 1975
being the end of " this system of things" arrived thru God's channel of communication- the
prophet– she obeyed her prophet ! She knew , as did all Jehovah's witnesses, that to question
the prophet ( the Governing Body ) , was to question God. Through this obedience she was able to
keep God's favor over her life. But when this prophecy failed to materialize in the months and years
following 1975, the prophet merely responded by reminding faithful witnesses that God had made
an " adjustment" , there was "new light " now , and of course a scripture was found to "prove" this,
Prov.4:18 ! Sad is'nt it ? Praise God for rescuing you Kate from following a false prophet . My wife,
like you , found her prophet in JESUS !
Aaron, it's important that you touched on a tactic which has been engineered by influential Mormons
( BYU prof. etc ) and been utilized now for 10 yrs ? or so, namely that of re-shaping various Mormon
doctrines ( works) in an attempt to persuade non LDS that Mormonism is really not that far removed
from N.T. teachings, or Evangelical belief . Stephen Robinson is a perfect choice as a PR point man
in this strategy. If I remember correctly he has lived and taught in the south "Bible Belt", so he has
become well versed in the thinking and use of terms and language of Evangelicals. So when he writes
a book "clarifying" a Mormon teaching it is well received by many Mormons especially younger ones.
Yet as Kate has shared on this thread the Mormons who've been in the Church a while can still be of
a different mind-set. What's important for everyone to remember is that these BYU professors, etc
do not establish Mormon doctrine, the leadership do. Apostle Boyd Packer has made that very clear in
a warning to the "intellectuals" in the Church. Furthermore Gordon B. Hinckley stated the Church is
certainly not changing : " We teach the same doctrine." . We need to beware of the tactics of Mormon
apologists.
I saw yesterday on another blog that John Dehlin who had a podcast called "Mormon Stories" is leaving the Mormon Church. I have enjoyed his presentations and interviews, especially the one with Grant Palmer. I remember him talking to Palmer about the "reformation" topic. To me it was obvious that Mormonism would never be reformed. The only thing that can be reformed are the hearts of the individual members. This is a personal reformation that can come only through Jesus Christ. Knowing Jesus and the Gospel of Salvation brings peace with God and eternal life for the believer.
These folks who cook-up a new gospel are not only lost, but they are defying God and His plan of salvation. How in the world do they think they can be saved by a gospel that runs counter to what God says it is? Isn't this the height of pride? The Mormon restored gospel is a gospel that attempts to sugar coat a lie that men can become gods. Where does that come from? Lucifer led a rebellion in heaven against God. These Mormons, while denying it, are doing the same thing. They have this fictitious mother god and father god procreating spirit children with the purpose of having offspring that will become the next generation of deities. Now where does that sort of inane, stupid foolishness come from? From the heart of man that is wicked and deceitful above all else. These Mormons are so twisted in their thinking that it all makes sense to them. White becomes black, day becomes night, and light becomes darkness in the Mormon system and these folks can't see the difference.
I remember as a thirteen year old kid in Catholic school the changes that took place under Pope John Paul XXIII and the Second Vatican Council. It took several years to implement the changes but it was quite extraordinary. The mass was said in English and the altar which was big and ornate facing the front wall of the sanctuary was removed and replaced by a simple altar facing the people. Both were a shock to me because I grew up listening to a Latin mass everyday of school and on Sunday. Prior to Vat. II I thought that if I ever stepped beyond the communion rail God would probably strike me dead. There were a bunch of Saints down-graded in those days. I remember St. Christopher kind of getting the boot along with his medal a lot of Catholics of that era wore. The church even got rid of meatless Fridays. That was kind of funny since prior to the change if you violated that rule and died without making an act of contrition you'd go to hell. Hell or a hot dog? It didn't seem like a fair exchange!
Falcon, John Dehlin leaving the Mormon church ? That's good news. It would be the greatest
news if he also came to the real Jesus and was truely born again . We need to pray for him .
I'm wondering if he had learned to much about Mormonism, if he saw to many examples of
his leaders spiritual guidance not being consistent with their lofty claims of being trustworthy
guides etc. No matter, as long as he asks Jesus to save him — Heb.7:25
ww
Here you go WW.
I'm not real good at cut and paste but this should be of interest to you.
We are speaking about neo-Mormonism and reformation here so it's worth a peek. I often wondered how John Dehlin was able to survive in Mormonism. The power structure has nothing to gain by reforming the Mormon church.
Post subject: ••Breaking News••. John Dehlin is leaving Church http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discuss…
More cut and paste. I hope I'm not violating an MC rule here. I should know most of them given the length of time I've been active here. This is a post on the discussion board I cited previously. I just found it. I think it's interesting given that I've been curious about and have become kind of a student of the process by which people leave Mormonism. I just hope that John has come to the place where he is following the Jesus revealed in the Bible. I'm distressed by how many Mormons become atheists.
John Dehlin here.
A few really quick things…
1) Thanks for all the kind and encouraging words
2) Yes….my wife and I no longer attend church, and we no longer are willing to act or appear as though we believe the fundamental truth claims (given existing information)
3) Just for accuracy's sake (folks are writing stuff on Facebook)….I do not at this time have plans to resign, and my meeting Thursday night is at the request of my SP.
Thx again for the kind words of support and encouragement.
John
Wow, I've listened to pod casts by John over the past year. I had such a hard time figuring out how he could stay in Mormonism knowing all the facts. It turns out that he can't after all. I wish him and his family all the best and truly hope that they can find and worship the true Jesus of the Bible.
falcon,
"Hell or a hot dog?"
LOL! You do my heart good! So I have a question, is the Catholic religion like Mormonism??
WW,
Isn't it crazy that someone can have an idea and find so many people to follow them? What's even more bizarre is when their prophecies fail, they simply say God changed his mind. Scripture tells us that God is not a God of confusion. Why do we as humans try to complicate everything? Christ's message is simple. Thankfully your wife was able to see through it all!
In my era it was very heavily legalistic. Lots of rules and rituals. That's why I got to the age of twenty and being a rebellious Baby Boomer I said, "I'm out of here!" I became pretty much a heathen and an atheist. Then when I was twenty-six I got saved, born again and washed in the blood of the Lamb……forgiven.
I've made peace with the Catholic church. The anger is gone and I can laugh when I tell my scary nun stories.
The Catholic faith is nothing like Mormonism in its doctrine. They argue with the protestants over the grace-works paradigm. But God is God. No funny business there. But there is just too much in Catholic doctrine that I can't swallow. Some folks go so far as to say the Catholics aren't Christians. I don't go there. I've known a ton of solidly born again Catholics in my time. They can reconcile the Catholic faith with their born again reality, but I could never do that.