Jared, a Mormon Fundamentalist, brought his sign to the streets of Manti, Utah preceding a 2011 Mormon Miracle Pageant performance. He graciously agreed to give Aaron an interview (below).
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Helen, you speak with the double tounge your father speaks.
First you say, Mormon doctrine was taught by the apostles, Then you gave quotes saying, see here it is, Then when I asked for details of these things, you said, It’s not in their. Which is it? The Bible teaches it? or it does not? Since you said it did, then when you could not find it you back tracked. So how can you say what you believe is true when you cannot support it?
Now onto Bruce,
Bruce in the 1958 edtion of Mormon Doctrine in the preface said,
He said
I did not say that, Bruce said that, can you show me these things that he claims are there? No you cannot, you even admited they are not there.
Helen,
I’m just pointing something out, You asked me for the quote from Bruce. It seems to me if I recall correctly, me or others have said to you, you dont fully read what we write. You asked for a link to the Bruce challange, Then you asked where Bruce said what I said he said.
It was right in the challange and it stated where it was from, the Mormon Doctrine 1958 edtion in the preface. So I’m thinking you dont really bother reading what we write, otherwise you would have never asked for the source since it was right in front of you.
Just wondering why you even stick around if you dont even bother to read what we write, or how we can have an honest talk if you dont read what we write? But thats just me and my thinking. Rick
Helen, you said in response to Rick’s questions on some very fundamental
Mormon doctrines concerning God: ” ….my answer is still the same, none
of that is in the Bible .”
Helen , thanks for admitting that. It would make dialogue with Mormons
go much smoother if they would stop listening to Mormon apologists and
just read the Bible for themselves to find the truth about our Creator.
M.R.
Mike R says:
July 15, 2011 at 4:49 pm
Helen, you said in response to Rick’s questions on some very fundamental
Mormon doctrines concerning God: ” ….my answer is still the same, none
of that is in the Bible .”
Helen , thanks for admitting that. It would make dialogue with Mormons
go much smoother if they would stop listening to Mormon apologists and
just read the Bible for themselves to find the truth about our Creator.
M.R.
Except for the nature of God, I agree that nothing about us Becoming Gods, creating our own earths, or God also had a God Father. This is all doctrine that we know little to nothing about except for the few sermons or talks given by Joseph Smith and other early Prophets.
You’re welcome, Helen/Louis 🙂
Helen,
It really is sad that you cannot know much about those doctrines, Yet your church and LDS semm pretty sure they are true and will happen to come true, and Bruce I’m guessing would have included those with in the hundreds of other things bit. really sad that you guys believe these doctrines to be true, but when cornered to defend them then you cannot and you somehow sseem to not know much about them.
Since you guys pride yourself and talk up a storm about personal revelation from God, and claim to use that as proof your church is real and claim since we dont believe in personal revelation we must not really follow God, yet when it comes to these matters, you guys dont seem able to hear from God and have Him clear up these issues. Why might that be?
Helen, Thanks for your reply. I appreciate that you admitted that the Bible
does’nt teach some very fundamental Mormon doctrines concerning God.
You also stated that past Mormon prophets did in fact teach these doctrines.
I agree with you on both counts and this is why we here have a great concern
for your spiritual welfare. Whether you don’t know a lot about these particular
doctrines is’nt what’s important here, the fact that those men who have taught
them claim to be representing the Lord Jesus Christ , that’s what’s important.
This can not be stressed to much as Jesus issued a warning that in the future
many prophets would arise and lead His followers away into false beliefs, beliefs
which would bring God’s displeasure. Since the “latter-day ” prophets of
Mormonism have issued doctrines on fundamental issues concerning who God
is etc, and which doctrines are absent from the teachings of Jesus’ original
apostles, then I have to reject the men who claim to be the modern -day
counterparts of the prophets and apostles as recorded in the Bible. I think
that you would agree that living a moral lifestyle needs to be in tandem with
embracing a correct belief in who God is . This the Bible gives us. Mormon leaders
have given only half.
Helen,
One more thing too think about.
You claimed Mormon Doctrine was taught by the apostles, Then you gave one verse about Paul speaking about the heavens, then you build an entire doctrine on that one verse.
So why is it Jesus spoke a lot about Heaven, But Jesus never mentioned 3 heavens or who goes there?
Why is it Paul said he knew a man who died and went to heaven and saw it, yet when this guy came back, and I believe Paul was speaking about Himself, He said He was not allowed to speak on what He saw or heard?
If Paul could not speak about what He saw or heard, then it stands to reason we cannot know from the Bible what Heaven is like. But on the other hand it is really unfair for us to not be told about these three heavens and who goes to which one if they exist. Just a thought.
Helen if you don’t mind.
Why is it Paul said he knew a man who died and went to heaven and saw it…
And this is a trick question. Paul doesn’t say that. You were asking why I think you need to read some books, this is a good example. What Paul says is he knows a man who went to the third heaven. The obvious question should be, “what does 3rd heaven mean”?
This is a perfect example of under translation in most English bibles. He’s using a term from astrology. In order the heavens are: The moon, Mercury, Venus, the sun, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, so this is a Greek expression for what we call Venus (it derives from Aristotle’s Meteorology ). The various heavens, in particular the 3rd heaven are discussed in books of the time like the Secrets of Enoch and Apocalypse of James. The third heaven would have been above the land of the Archons (rulers of this world, ephemeral powers Paul frequently talks about) but not quite there with God, the abode of the angel Raphael where great mysteries like the Tree of Life resides…. The place where the secrets and mysteries are revealed. Which makes perfect sense if you read this in context.
So … you might want to consider the very verse you were trying to use to disprove Helen’s theory of multiple levels of heaven far from disproving it supports it. You have Paul talking right their of a holy place below heaven.