Perhaps the most compelling parallel that can be made between Mormon temples and Solomon’s temple is that the Israelites disobediently put an “Asherah pole” — an object which honored Asherah, the wife of Baal (which idolatrous Israelites assumed to be also the wife of Yahweh) — into the temple. Kings and Chronicles repeatedly makes the issue of Asherah a measuring rod when describing the rebellion and idolatry and wickedness of God’s people and the kings of Israel. In the great reform, the Asherah pole was chopped down and burned to ashes (2 Kings 23:6).
Today, Mormons resurrect worship of Asherah in at least two ways:
1. They essentially teach and believe in Heavenly Mother, and this worldview is the framework which informs the endowment ceremony, which under-girds the sealing ceremonies (i.e. sealings are necessary for women to become cosmic queens, goddesses, to further the genealogy of the gods), and the rare second anointings, where women are given assurance, short of subsequently committing murder, of celestial exaltation unto godhood.
2. After re-enacting the Fall, the Mormon participants in the LDS endowment ceremony are told by Satan to run, hide, and make a green apron-covering for themselves, to hide their nakedness. The acted drama or movie is literally stopped to give LDS participant time to obey Satan. The narrator then instructs them to put on their green aprons. In Mormonism, the decision to eat of the forbidden fruit is construed as being wise, righteous, holy, and worth imitating. It is celebrated for allegedly then enabling Adam and Eve to birth mortal children. Whereas Biblically the shameful self-covering of Adam and Eve was replaced with the animal-skin covering that God provided (pointing to Christ), Mormons put the green apron on in a celebratory fashion, not a shameful one. They even put it on over the alleged divine covering (the white undergarments). Mormons are often even buried in their casket with the green apron on. The green apron may be seen as a celebration of the fertility that came with the Fall, when they obeyed Satan’s enticing. Since Asherah was a goddess of fertility, I can’t help but see the connection: not only are modern Mormon apologists like Kevin Barney calling for worship of Asherah as Heavenly Mother(!), Mormons have inadvertently paid homage to the goddess of fertility in a demonic temple ceremony.
Jasonrae,
For one, count me in on the No Work Salvation camp. As Scripture says – “we are save by grace through faith and not of ourselves.” We have been saved for good works – I am God’s handiwork created for good works that I should walk in them (Ephesians 2 8 – 10). So we see even my santification is God’s work, not mine!
It’s a scandalous salvation given that I contribute nothing – NOT EVEN A PRAYER – Jesus did EVERYTHING for my salvation on the cross. His blood paid the total complete price for my salvation and He rose again for my justification. I am not saved by works, at least not by mine. I am saved by the works of Christ. I am a poor miserable sinner, and apart from Christ completely damned and going to hell. But because of Jesus, His works for me, and the faith He has given me through His Word which comes to me in the preaching of Christ crucified for my sins in Word and Sacrament I know that I will be with God eternally – I have eternal life with Christ. Jesus comes to me and saves me.
So count me in on the no works eternal life – because I don’t have any good works that can save my sinful self. Not even a little bit. However, I have a Savior who is more than able to grant me forgiveness and eternal life – He has that power and He loves to give mercy and forgiveness. Just read the Scriptures and see how He had mercy on those who knew they needed mercy. Lord, have mercy on me a sinner!
Something that is more in line with the thread topic but connected to where the conversation
has drifted ( the Book of Mormon) is that of how the BofM states that it offers to convince the
reader (specifically ” the Jew and Gentile ” ) that Jesus is the Christ , the Eternal God . This
agrees with the Bible’s testimony about Jesus’ identity . Another issue to consider is that the
N.T. issues a warning to beware of the teachings of false prophets in the latter days –Matt 24:11,
24. One writer in the BofM states that what he writes is for today ( Mormon 8:35) , and this is
what those who accept the BofM as scripture claim , it was written for today , and this is why
it is said to provide the aid needed in exposing false doctrines in these latter days . Sadly, but
false doctrine can be introduced by men who claim to be followers Jesus and even to have his
appointment to speak authoritatively but who have drifted into introducing terrible inaccurate
teachings about Jesus and then proceed to offer it as ” new light” or “restored” truth ” .
Officers in the Mormon church are among such men. . While the Bible declares Jesus to be
Jehovah , the Lord God Almighty the Creator of heaven and earth , these men have succumbed
to introducing teachings that have drifted from the truth about Jesus . Their belief about Jesus’
true identity is that He is a son of a celestial male God in heaven who impregnated one of His
celestial Goddess wives , an almighty female Deity who became his Mother. Prophets in these
latter days who introduce such teachings fall under the Bible’s warning about false teachers
and the BofM exposes this error as well .
I’m glad that God can alert the Mormon people that in submitting to their leaders they have
in fact been detoured from His truth in some important areas , and none are more serious than
who is God / Jesus . To know Jesus ( Jn 17:3 ) is more than following His example in living a
moral life , it is embracing Him as the Bible presents Him —His uniqueness as Jehovah , then
approaching Him and asking for a complete pardon and the new life that He offers .
Rom 10: 1-4 ; 10 :9-13 ; Phil 3:9 . Matt 11: 28 . May people come to see in the Bible as their
anchor that can be their written standard for safely navigating the dangerous and even
counterfeit teachings that may come their way today. It’s the bed rock of the Christian
faith and it reveals our Creator who is available to know —-Jer 33:3
Oldman said
This is how it works, We have evidence to prove the Bible, LDS do not have evidence for the BoM, so then to make the playing ground fair and equal they must say that whatever we provide for evidence is not good enough, IE, we were not their when Jesus walked on water, so eye witness accounts dont matter.
Sadly for a guy that claims to be the smartest guy on the planet seems to forget his logic can and will be used against him. If eye witness accounts of Jesus walking on water and healing the sick and raising the dead are not good enough for him, then we can dismiss JS and the golden plates, Since Jason was not around when JS found them and translated them, how can we trust him? What evidence does he have? He has none, he was not their the supposed eye witnesses to the golden plates cannot be trusted since the eye witness to Jesus cannot be trusted.
Let see, we cannot prove JS had 9 first visions since he supposdly was by himself when this took place, so it is his word we must take on face value. I could keep going with examples but I’m sure Jason understands what I’m saying, at least he should understand since he is the smartest guy on this blog.
Jasonrae
I said I would not argue with you any more, I am not arguing, but as you have taken it upon yourself to warn people not to mock your testimony I need to reply. I don’t believe anyone is mocking your testimony it’s actually being questioned & I’m going to try explaining why. Perhaps I’m wrong in doing this as it’s off topic but nevertheless it is connected to what Mike R has said & is very relevant.
I know about the things of which you speak, I don’t call myself “old man” because it’s a cute moniker. I’ve been around a long time Jason, I’ve seen things that you can only imagine, I don’t intend to go into that but I DO KNOW what is of God & what is not. I’ve briefly touched on this before but now I’ll explain more fully. Being brutally frank, the testimony, of which you speak, is not from God. I too, & no doubt most in here, have experienced testimonies such as yours; I have felt a sense of wonder, a feeling of awe when I have looked up at a night sky, I have felt it when out walking in beautiful countryside & I have lifted my hands & eyes to the heavens in praise. Unfortunately, however good those feelings may be, they are nevertheless human feelings common to ALL men of ALL religions. That is not to say those feelings cannot be attributed to God, what it does say is that when those feelings are earnestly attributed to God even when the person concerned believes something that is not in accordance with scripture, then there is a very real danger that a deceiving spirit is involved. Those feelings can & do lead men to accept any heresy & will ultimately lead them away from the Biblical Christ & to the acceptance of false gods & false doctrine.
Gods Spirit causes men to fall to their knees it He does not lift them up & fill them with a sense of their own importance; there is no room for self-righteousness in the spirit filled man. He does not give men good feelings about themselves. The “feel good factor” is NOT evidence of Gods presence. The Spirit fills men with humility, the man who knows Gods touch will cry out “why me Lord”? He knows how worthless he really is. You will not see a man “puffed up with pride” when he has been touched by God;
grindael,
I’m afraid our Mormon friend Jason’s act is much like some guy juggling two balls while whistling and thinking he’s doing something really extraordinary.
I think I tracked down his sources and also read a critique of the claims and as you have done, the claims get obliterated.
Here in lies the problem with people who have a spiritual witness. Frankly I see the same thing with some of my Christian brothers and sisters. Most of the time it’s harmless and makes them feel good. They enjoy connecting experiential dots and seeing cause and effect when it’s really chance occurrence and wishful thinking.
However when reality and solid evidence contradict these spiritual impressions and convictions, I’ve found it best to go with reality. Now understand I say all of this as a person whose orientation is away from dispensationalism; embracing God’s Spirit as fully operating in the lives of believers today.
But to give credibility to real miracles and the manifestation of God’s spirit, we need to exercise discernment which is one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
No, our buddy Jason is living in a Mormon parallel universe where the rules are totally different and the goal is to continue to support notions that have been totally discredited.
Remember, almost 200 years of @nti thought has claimed that Joseph was just making things up on the fly. What follows is a short compilation of the Lehi journey from top to bottom showing subtle authenticity. To satisfy Falcon I will mention that I am writing from memory, top-of-mind thoughts without reference books or online articles. That being the case I’m sure I’m leaving plenty out but if you want ref notes and supporting info just search any of the item topics and I’m sure you will find extensive details.
The Journey
What we need to consider is the ENTIRE journey of Lehi’s group. 600 BC is a tumultuous time for Jerusalem. This time historically is part of the 2nd major Jewish diaspora. Lehi is not the only family to flee major political turmoil. With Jerusalem’s protector on the decline the enemy will soon be at the gates. Those fortunate enough to be forewarned get out quickly.
The BoM has some authentic overtones when Lehi names the river and the valley where they first stop after his two oldest sons. Joseph would have to be pretty well steeped in ancient Arab culture and practices to include such a subtle touch. So right there, just getting started, whoever’s writing First Nephi is certainly either very well educated in ancient Arab nuance OR on an authentic journey into the desert circa 600 BC fleeing Jerusalem. This kid of nuance is not likely something Joseph would have known.
Valley of Lemuel – and excellent candidate for the valley of Lemuel has been. Sheer 2000 foot rock walls on either side at just about the right distance from Jerusalem to fit their first camp. This is something would could certainly guess, so not very valuable as high probability evidence. But it’s still there.
River of Water – The River of Laman, a small stream runs through the valley. 2,600 years ago it was bigger than today. Contemporary knowledge in Joseph’s day was pretty that there were ZERO rivers in Arabia. Unless one was actually there, on the ground, they would not think to mention a river that emptied into the Red Sea in the deserts of Arabia. The likelihood of Joseph knowing about this in 1829 is virtually nil. You could say that’s a ‘guess’ but it would be a guess going against contemporary knowledge so quite risky.
Going back for the plates – going back for the brass plates (the scriptures) is an extremely impressive touch. In Joseph’s world scriptures written on plates wasn’t even thought of. If a 19th century farmboy was just making things up he most certainly would have used the idea of scrolls or parchment. Brass plates in 1829 would be a joke. Amazingly long after Joseph’s time writing on metal plates were discovered for the first time. The plates of Darius come to mind and there are others. Again – more knowledge that NO ONE else alive in 1829 had. But, our farmboy Joseph somehow got this information.
Going back for Ishmael – This is a very interesting touch because God’s very first commandment was to “multiply and replenish the earth” showing a real emphasis on marriage and family right at the start. Uprooting a branch of the House of Israel to an entirely new continent certainly follows an “Adam & Eve” motif of “new beginnings”. 23 year old Joseph is not likely to think of such things but God did. Hence Lehi had the impelling vision to bring Ishmael and his many daughters along.
Breaking the bow – Nephi breaks his fine steel bow. ‘Steel’ was not the same 2,600 years ago as we think of it today. In Joseph’s time steel often meant ‘to make hard’. Nephi makes the point that he made a new bow but also new arrows. Joseph would have to have in-depth knowledge of archery to make such a subtle statement since Nephi would not be able to use the old heavier arrows with the new lighter bow. This happens in an area known as ‘Shazer’.
Shazer – The guys from Nephi Project have actually been to the Shazer area, they’ve been in the mountains there. This is one of the only areas in all of Arabia that have trees sufficient for making a bow.
Death of Ishmael – Somewhere between Shazer and Nahom Ishmael dies. In frontier America if someone died on the plains you buried them where they fell. In the BoM they carry Ishmael’s body to the Nahom area to give him a proper burial. Another subtle touch Joseph isn’t likely to know.
Nahom – If I remember correctly ‘Nahom’ is exactly how a Hebrew would pronounce NHM. A local may not have pronounced it that way but a Hebrew would. Either way, ‘NHM’ when coupled with the directions given by Nephi AND the recent discovery of the burial ground we pretty certain that we have the correct location. Kind of like a triangulation.
Burial ground – The burial ground is there today. You can see see thousands of ancient buial mounds dotting the landscape for miles.
Eastward turn – The eastward turn from Nahom is another ‘triangulation’ point along the journey that helps us keep our bearings with each location reinforcing the other. The fact that the ancient frankincense trail went east around the NHM area is a recent discovery and a striking touch for the BoM since logic dictates that Lehi and group had to follow that trail for the water stops.
Empty Quarter – At some point after the eastward turn they diverge somewhat from the trail and head into the outskirts of the Empty Quarter. It is here and ONLY here that the BoM says fire was no longer an option and they ate their meat raw. Why? To prevent detection from rival tribes who would either take them captive or kill and plunder the entire group. Not something Joseph would be privy to.
Bountiful 13 points My prior post listed in detail the core points needed to have a plausible Bountiful location. Khor Kharfot has them all.
So it’s the cumulative things that start to add up. Get one or two of these things right just by chance? Joseph probably has a good shot at that. But to get so many authentic touches right? Now you are heading into astronomical territory where the odds are without question stacked against anyone pulling it off in 1829
You may certainly continue to say that Joseph just made it all up but that’s getting harder and harder to believe for informed individuals. Which is why you guys need the low-info types to keep your @nti career meaningful.
Was typing too fast and did not proof read. This fixes the first two items. Corrected words are in bold.
Valley of Lemuel – and excellent candidate for the valley of Lemuel has been found. Sheer 2000 foot rock walls on either side at just about the right distance from Jerusalem to fit their first camp. This is something Joseph could certainly guess, so not very valuable as high probability evidence. But it’s still there.
River of Water – The River of Laman, a small stream runs through the valley. 2,600 years ago it was bigger than today. Contemporary knowledge in Joseph’s day was pretty clear that there were ZERO rivers in Arabia. Unless one was actually there, on the ground, they would not think to mention a river that emptied into the Red Sea in the deserts of Arabia. The likelihood of Joseph knowing about this in 1829 is virtually nil. You could say that’s a ‘guess’ but it would be a guess going against contemporary knowledge so quite risky.
Grindael,
“And how could Nephi have built a temple “like unto Solomon’s” within 25 years or so of landing in America? Explain the BOM population growth that it describes. The FACT is, to achieve what the BOM states is impossible. Therefore it is a FACT that the BOM is a fraud.”
Classic blunder. The Lehi / Nephi group are NOT the only ones there. Who thinks that? Apparently you do which puts you woefully behind the times. Here’s what you need to get up to speed on:
Lehi brought advanced navigation and ship building technology, advanced language and writing, advanced record keeping methods, metal working and other advanced ideas and concepts to the new world. Nephi wasn’t going to conquer but rather to integrate into existing ancient Mesoamerican societies. So it was their significantly advanced tech that allowed them to quickly dominate, in a peaceful way, an entire people.
The building of a temple “like unto the temple of Solomon” is very plausible when understood in that light. Like the earlier critics of a lush garden area on the coasts of Arabia you may want to rethink your position.
“Aston is calling this area ‘Nahom’ based on a name inscribed on a donated Temple Altar! He makes this tenuous assumption: “While we cannot be certain, Bi’athar would have been unlikely to contribute to a temple that lay outside his tribal area.” Of course he cannot be certain about that! No one can!”
Remember, it’s the cumulative details stacking up that give us extremely high probability evidence that this is the right location for Nephi’s Nahom.
1. ‘Nahom’ is how a Hebrew passing through he area would pronounce NHM.
2. You can follow Nephi’s directions from Jerusalem “near the borders of the Red Sea” in a south-southeast direction. ‘Borders’ in Nephi’s time meant mountains.
3. The actual ‘Nahom’ location would HAVE to have a burial ground. We have that now. And we’re not talking a few small tombs, rather, you can see burial mounds dotting the landscape for MILES. Ishmael is most certainly buried here.
4. Whatever the ‘Nahom’ location is, the ancient frankincense trail would turn east from there. It is a fairly recent discovery that the frankincense trail did indeed go east from this area. Joseph had no way of knowing that.
5. ‘Bountiful’ MUST be due east of the ‘Nahom’ location. And it can’t just be any coastal spot with some greenery. It HAS to be a Bountiful that matches up with at least 13 key points as mentioned in my prior post. We have that. Khor Kharfot is exactly due east of NHM and matches all the points.
The likelihood of getting all those points by “coincidence” as you say are pretty far fetched. This kind of knowledge only comes from BOOTS ON THE GROUND in the location claimed. Think Carsten Niebuhr, Lewis & Clark et al.
Sorry for the lae come in but I’ve been pulling quite a number of night shifts and no access to a computer.
———————————–
For those who are ridiculing the use of Aston as a guide because of his belief in UFOs, 2 other groups have been out on a similar journey to try an map out the trip from Jerusalem to Bountiful. One group was the Hiltons – Lynn and Hope – whom I have met as they served a temple mission in Sydney. They wrote a book called “Discovering Lehi” in which they say they found a plausable trail. Their trail was similar but not the same as the Proctor or the Aston groups, which they reference within their book. They did go through/past NHM but they ended up on the coast of the Yemen Republic a few kms west of the other 2 groups. But they all came out in the same region where there was plenty of wild honey, fruit and trees. So this trail evidence does not come from one nut-case that believes in UFOs, but from at least 2 other sources.
So as jasonrae keeps saying, there is no solid evidence of the BoM, but these things give us a platform to stand on.
Like the Bible – there is no archaelogical evidence of an Israelite Exodus from Egypt through the desert to Canaan.
There is no evidence that David ruled and empire/kingdom that covered all the land that the Bible says it did. The only evidence of a kindom in that area is that Jerusalem was a city kingdom that only ruled it immediate locale.
There are arguments over the battle of Jericho and whether the dating of some ruins at that city are correct or not or if the actual city destroyed was another one a couple of miles down the road because the carbon dating agrees more at that site than the Jericho site.
And so on. Yes RickB, you can find the cities and people that are mentioned in the Bible, but I can also find the cities and people mentioned in Forrest Gump – does that make it true?
———————————————
As far as the OP – we believe that Adam and Eve has the full true religion of the only True God – Heavenly Father – when they were on this earth after the fall. We beleive that all religions on this earth are ‘mutations’of this truth. Since we believe that the whole reason for this life is to become gods ourselves and its an ongoing process, then we believe that Adam and Eve also knew this and when it became corrupted polytheism came in and people worshiped these others. So the worship of Ashera by the Israelites being compared to our belief in (but NOT worship of) a Mother in Heaven is a possibility – could be truth behind it – but then again they could have had it wrong even according to our (LDS) standards. But they did have it wrong by worshiping her as well and not Heavenly Father only as prescribed in the Bible.
Why He wants it this way I dont profess to know. I have given an dea in the past which I agree with but may not be true. But an explanation can be found in the Bible where God says His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. In other words – He has a reason but He is not telling us and we don’t really need to know at this time.
To all Mormons in here.
My last comment, posted 6 or 7 hours ago hours ago is still awaiting moderation, so in the meantime I’ll briefly say this.
No matter what any of you say or offer as evidence, no matter what made up stories you choose to believe, the fact remains that Joseph Smith never was & never could have been, a prophet & I don’t say this because he was a paedophile, an adulterer or convicted criminal. So why do I say it? Because after Christ there was no need for another prophet, I’m not going to explain that to you, if you cant understand it then you have no right to quote Christs words for you do not know Him. Certainly the gift of prophecy remains but prophets in the Mormon sense of the word have not been needed since Gods new Covenant was given through Christ 2000 years ago. The mere fact that you claim there is a need for latter day prophets demonstrates beyond any doubt that not one of you has the slightest inkling as to who Christ is. If you did know Him you would stop this deception without a second thought. It really is that simple.
If you wish to follow the teachings of a deceiving spirit that is your business but, unlike your leaders who falsely claim to have “discernment” there are people in here who truly do have a “Spirit of discernment” & they are not so easily fooled. They see your arguments for what they really are, heretical & all too often, demonic deception.
This point is as valid as ever. What “existing MesoAmerican Societies?” According to the BOM there weren’t any. And what did Nephi with a few grandchildren do, conquer a whole society of people and make them slaves so they could build a temple to a foreign God? LOL. Now that’s logical. The fact is, this never made any sense and still does not. (P.S. if they did do as you say, then why isn’t there ONE of those “societies” that have any link or reference to Hebrew/Egypt or the name of Jesus that Nephi was worshiping and other BOM “prophets” revealed long before Jesus ever walked the earth) The BOM is just as ridiculous now as it was back then, and this is one of those classic blunders on Jo Smith’s part that will always be “en vogue”.
And then there is the blatant contradiction that they didn’t have “precious things” to build the temple with when it was said that there were many “precious ores” all over the place.
Nope. In Hebrew they would pronounce it with a hard “h” sound, like “loch”. Wrong again.
And they were on maps of the area at the time of Jo Smith.
It’s a PAGAN burial ground. The altar was dedicated to a PAGAN GOD. The Jews would NEVER bury one of theirs on such unhallowed ground. The name of a tribe does not give us a place. NIHM is a tribal name and that is what Jo got off that map he got a hold of. 1 Nephi 16:34 says: the place which was called Nahom.
It is highly likely that a group of Jews traveling down the Arabian peninsula would have followed the ancient Frankincense Trail. Especially since “Nephi” says that they were traveling incognito. It would have been suicide to abandon the trail’s watering holes to cut east across the uninhabited Empty Quarter. The narrative says that it took them eight years to reach Bountiful from Jerusalem (1 Nephi 17:4).
Scott Kent Brown says that the Jews traveled as far south as Shabwah, Yemen, before turning east towards Bountiful. While this model keeps the Jews on the outskirts of the Empty Quarter, it doesn’t fit the narrative that from Nahom they traveled nearly eastward from that time forth to Bountiful.
See above. It’s not such a stretch to have Smith saying they traveled south down the Peninsula – ran around for eight years and went east to an oasis built a ship and sailed away. There are no SPECIFIC details in this except NHM and he could have gotten that from a map printed in his day. Everything else is speculation provided by desperate Mormon Apologists. Because Khor Kharfot is like it is today, doesn’t mean that it was 2500 years ago. There might have been NO TREES there at all, or trees that could not have been used for a ship. Nah, this is not evidence, it is fitting known places into a very very vague story 2500 years using locations that may not have even been there then.
This does not give one a “platform”. It only serves to show that ANYONE can make something out of vagaries. Since Smith knew that Arabia was indeed a place, and that there were people who lived there, he could plot a vague course through that country and ANYONE, years later, could come along and say BINGO! Yeah, “Nephi” went south, stopped at Nahom (that he got from a map) then “journeyed” around for eight years and went east and found a lush little port where he built a ship after smelting iron (which is another BIG problem for this story). I’m not impressed and really, only desperate Mormons are.
Problem is, is that there is NO EVIDENCE of “Nephi” in the place where it really should be, over here in America where the BOM says that there were MILLIONS of them, all worshiping a Christian God, but no one can find a trace of, and then we have Jo saying that their descendants were the Indian tribes of his day, but no DNA evidence can support that either. They were doing the same thing in Jo’s day, pointing to the Mayan ruins and saying all kinds of things like “there is high probability evidence” that was actually (like all of it is today) low probability speculation.
If you are ditching Aston, then please tell the rest of them to do so to. He’s a whack job and NIHM as Nahom from the BOM is a figment of his over active imagination.
Forrest Gump was based on reality. The Bible was based on reality and MANY of its locations have been verified. This was 4000 + years ago. At least with Gump the historical facts check out, even if the story is fiction, with the BOM it doesn’t and it IS fiction just like Gump. Smith guessed, and guessed wrong.
Grindael,
This point is as valid as ever. What “existing MesoAmerican Societies?” According to the BOM there weren’t any. And what did Nephi with a few grandchildren do, conquer a whole society of people and make them slaves so they could build a temple to a foreign God?
The BoM NEVER says they were alone. Not one time. In fact many places in the text infer not only integration with other societies but visitors from other societies as well. Besides logic dictates there were already people here.
Remember, we can’t claim the BoM (or any book) a fraud based things that have not been found. This is pretty basic and common knowledge in the archaeology / anthropology world. And in science proving a negative like that simply isn’t possible. But yet you continue to hang on to that like you have some smoking gun. If you want to remain intellectually honest and credible with informed individuals you will drop statements like “The FACT is, to achieve what the BOM states is impossible. Therefore it is a FACT that the BOM is a fraud.” THAT ship has sailed and is no longer a viable option.
Nope. In Hebrew they would pronounce it with a hard “h” sound, like “loch”. Wrong again.
If you were to hear Nahom pronounced the correct way then you would hear a harder ‘H’ – not as hard as you present but a harder ‘H’ that it appears to us.
It’s a PAGAN burial ground. The altar was dedicated to a PAGAN GOD. The Jews would NEVER bury one of theirs on such unhallowed ground.
Where do you think they would bury Ishmael then? Travel back to Jerusalem? Jews were not supposed to build temples outside of Jerusalem either but outside temples have been found. Once they became wandering Jews without a homeland all bets were off and anything goes – the typical rules no longer apply. Clearly they mourned greatly in part because Ishmael was buried far away from his homeland but what choice did they have? In absence of a direct answer from you we’ll just go with the one Nephi gives us: Nahom.
~
Old Man,
You will not see a man “puffed up with pride” when he has been touched by God;
100% agree. The rest of your post however I take issue with. If the BoM didn’t testify of Christ and His world changing Atonement then I wouldn’t be here. And you may say well it’s a “different Jesus” but as I posted on the other thread, I’ll repeat here:
And we can’t use the “different Christ” card – we all know there was only one historical Christ. While we may have differing views as to His divine nature the LDS don’t worship a Christ that walked the dusty roads of Ethiopia. There is only one historical Son of God and we recognize His atoning work on our behalf.
And I might add the BoM testifies of this very Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the World and it testifies of no other. So if you want to call that a demonic spirit then you stand in danger of fulfilling Isaiah 5:20:
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
Keep in mind that your current attitude is pretty close to the same attitude many Jews had when Christ came on the scene – the very attitude that caused many to reject Christ outright. However, if you have a specific scripture verse that plainly states that God would never call another prophet or reveal more knowledge from heaven please post it.
Sigh. The “Valley of Lemuel has been FOUND!” Really? Really? There are so many problems with this that I just don’t know where to begin. You do know that even amongst Mormons that there is an argument about this, because Potter (whose research I’m assuming you are using) is completely making things up to fit into what the BOM ACTUALLY SAYS. (Which isn’t much).
First, let’s read the BOM. It says,
Ok it says that they all “departed into the wilderness”. They “came down by the borders near the shore of the Red Sea” and got there “when he had traveled three days in the wilderness” and then they pitched a tent in a valley by the side of a river of water. They then built an “altar of stones”. They named the river Laman because it emptied into the Red Sea, and “the valley was in the borders near the mouth”.
That’s it. That is all the info the BOM gives. Now see how they spin it. He then tries to discount that this could have been a seasonal run off by trying to compare the climate in Arabia in 600 BC to the time of Moses, etc. TOTAL SPECULATION. The fact is, he doesn’t know.
He says,
This is PURE SPECULATION. No one knows what the population was like in 600 BC in Arabia. They don’t know anything about that time. To speculate that if it was a major stream that there would be name and a settlement is again, speculation and something no one will ever know.
He then says,
This again, is speculation. There could have been numerous streams or rivers (depending on the season) that might have emptied into the Red Sea. Qualifying it to a certain area when there is no mention of that area in the text is speculation.
He then spins some more and says,
ANY valley is firm steadfast and immovable at the time it is being described. It doesn’t have to be big rocks or have impressive geological features. ANY valley that does have “impressive geological features” could easily be destroyed by any natural disaster and therefore NOT be “firm, steadfast, and immovable.” This again is reading into the text. (that is why he says “hint”) He knows it.
And the last point that he makes is,
First “by the borders of the Red Sea” could be anywhere. Potter makes his own starting and ending points to try and fit the narrative. The BOM is imprecise. But don’t take my word, take another published Mormon Apologists:
Jeffrey R Chadwick writes,
Wow. They must have had access to the gold plates and translated it to get all that. It’s just NOT THERE. Here is where they go off the deep end. Chadwick continues,
Why does he say this? Here is his reasoning,
In other words, IT’s TOO VAGUE TO KNOW. He continues,
Again, Vagaries. BOM says they went from Jerusalem to Red Sea. That is all. Anything else is speculation. And Potter does speculate. A LOT. He continues,
Again,
He goes on but you get the idea. Potter’s speculations are impractical and forced. Chadwick continues to the “Valley of Lemuel”:
He then takes apart their forced location:
It is clear from the above that the “Valley of Lemuel” has not been found. It is a speculative supposition based on faulty evidence and adding things to the text that aren’t there. This of course is what is being done with all of these locations. All your high tech information Jason is again, low tech speculation.
The BoM NEVER says they were alone. Not one time.
LOL. Yes it does. I assume you have read it? Here is where it says it:
5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.
6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.
7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever. . . .
11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten. – 2 Nephi, Chapter 1.
“Possess this land UNTO THEMSELVES.” This means they are alone. No one else can possess it. You do understand English don’t you Jason? Obviously your “prophets” did:
“About twenty-five centuries ago, a hardy group left the comforts of a great city, crossed a desert, braved an ocean, and came to the shores of this, their promised land. There were two large families, those of Lehi and Ishmael, who in not many centuries numbered hundreds of millions of people on these two American continents.” ~Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 601
Do you really always just make things up? You obviously know NOTHING about Jewish burial customs and WHY they WOULD NOT NEED A PAGAN CEMETERY.
DIRECT ANSWER:
When a person died, they were left (usually in a cave) to dry out. That is why the mourning process could take MORE THAN A YEAR. Then,
“When the flesh had wasted away, the bones were collected and placed in chests (ossuaries). On that day (the son) mourned, but the following day he was glad, because his forebears rested from judgment (Moed Qatan 1:5).”
This final act of mourning, in which the fleshless bones were gathered and placed into a bone box called an ossuary, was known as the “ossilegium” or “SECOND BURIAL.” (Archaeology and Biblical Research, Spring 1992, p. 55).
It would make no sense to place this stone box into a pagan cemetery. They would not do it. They would place it ANYWHERE but there.
The current pronunciation of the location and tribal area is said to be Nihm or Nehem or Nahm rather than Nahom. One critic states that the time from Ishmael’s death to now (~2600 years) is not long enough to account for the change in pronunciation (Vogel 2004, p. 609)
Like “NECK-M” This is exactly because of Jewish linguistics. NA-HOME is FORCING IT to be something it is NOT. Nahom came from a French Cartographer’s spelling of the name in the 1700’s. IT’s WRONG.
Jason, Your nothing more than a Joke, you cannot answer questions or even honestly defend your faith or your false prophets. You claim, Unless I can prove Jesus walked on water you wont answer questions. Really? Just be honest and admit you have no real answers as we already know that.
You guys claim we will and can be gods some day, but you cannot support that view from the Bible, Then you cannot prove what you believe and you cannot explain all of the massive overwhelming problems with the BoM and it has been exposed as a fraud, so instead you use speculation from some foreign country as your proof. What an absolute joke.
How can you explain all of the plagiarism issues in the BoM? How can you guys quote from the Bible in one breath, yet in another claim the Bible is not translated correctly? If you believe the Bible is not translated correctly, then how come none of your prophets has given us the “Correct” Verses yet? How come JS claimed the German translation is the Most correct, yet you guys dont use that? How come BY taught Adam God as FACT and DOCTRINE, yet know it is claimed to be false, But your prophet is not a false prophet even though he lead many astray with false teaching? These many issues dont even begin to scratch the surface, yet you have no answers so you avoid them while claiming to be Willey Coyote Super Genius. I think JS bought the BoM manuscript from Acme tool company.
Jason said
This is so far from the truth. First off Can you prove this? No, If so, lets see it, Lets see how many of people today are looking to Lehi for the best way to build a ship, or his awesome record keeping skills?
Also the funniest thing you said was :
Have you seriously read the story about the barge with holes in it? Man if your god said build an air tight container then he is an idiot. I will guess that your going to say, Lehi Did not learn his ship building skills from Jared and they did not share any info with each other.
Lets see, you build an air tight box, Say to God, we cannot breath and there is no air, he replys with, put a hole in the top, a hole in the bottom, put plugs in them, and when you need air, pull a plug. But it gets more bizarre when if you pull a plug and water come in, then you put the plug back into stop water from coming in.
Yet you believe this crap and it makes perfect sense. Good luck when you here Jesus say, Depart from me, I never knew you.
Grindael,
And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
Wow you are SO grasping at straws here. The knowledge of other NATIONS – get that part? Nations that could discover the land on official expeditions to take over. It has ZERO to do with the existence of pre-Lehite societies. ZERO. Let go of that one and accept the fact that other people were already there.
Also if the verses you cite prevented other migrations then how do you explain Mulek? Having an official NATION take over the land is ENTIRELY different than pre-existing people and cultures and additional migrations of which we are 100% sure did happen. So the verses do not mean what you think.
Also, it’s pretty much a guarantee that there were plenty of remnants of the Jaredites still on the land. Who were of Asian origin. So let’s be clear: there is NO WAY the America’s were empty circa 600 BC – basic archaeology will give you all the proof you need for that.
Do you really always just make things up? You obviously know NOTHING about Jewish burial customs and WHY they WOULD NOT NEED A PAGAN CEMETERY.
Again, Nephi was clear: “And it came to pass that Ishmael died, and was buried in the place which was called Nahom.”
Do you really think this burial ground located on the VERY popular frankincense trail would not accommodate Jews? Seriously? It’s extremely large for a reason – think about it. If you think Ishmael was the very first travelling Jew buried there then wow.
And most importantly the simple text of Nephi carries FAR more weight than you someone removed from the situation by 2,600 years. I mean c’mon. You are trying to force your 20 minutes of research on the actions of wandering Jews in the desert thousands of years ago like you know EXACTLY what they would do in every situation. But you don’t.
So here it is again: “And it came to pass that Ishmael died, and was buried in the place which was called Nahom.”
Rick,
Good to see you stepping up to the plate with some decent responses and issues. I honestly have to say I didn’t expect that from you so bravo.
“Lets see how many of people today are looking to Lehi for the best way to build a ship, or his awesome record keeping skills?”
Umm. That would be NO ONE from today. But, for native American’s of 600 BC to see the ship of Nephi just off the shore must have been an incredible site to behold. So yes to them it would be considered highly advanced technology. See the point? I didn’t intend it any other way.
“Have you seriously read the story about the barge with holes in it? Man if your god said build an air tight container then he is an idiot. I will guess that your going to say, Lehi Did not learn his ship building skills from Jared and they did not share any info with each other.”
No.. considering the Jaredites go back to the Tower of Babel and Lehi was 600 BC it’s not likely they would have known each other. Ya know? However I actually DO agree with you that the Jaredite barges makes very little sense from my perspective – I’ll give you that one. But just because I don’t understand it doesn’t mean it wasn’t done for some reason we know nothing about. So I’m not going to nit pick it.
If I were Grindael I would asses it something like this:
“The FACT is BARGES like would be STUPID and impossible. Therefore it is a FACT that the BOM is a fraud.”
But thankfully I’m NOT Grindael and I know better.
Jasonrae
I’m not about to go back on what I said previously; I wont engage you in any more arguments, as the saying goes, “you can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink” anyway, I’ll give you some information on a subject you know very little about.
“You will not see a man puffed up with pride when he has been touched by God; 100% agree.”
So why are you puffed up with pride?
“And we can’t use the different Christ card, we all know there was only one historical Jesus”
Indeed we do know there was one historical Jesus but the LDS claim not to follow Him. Your last but one “prophet” G. B. Hinckley said that you don’t. When you say you have a different view of Christs divinity you are in effect saying that your Christ is not the one who Christians follow. One plus one equals two. Simple isn’t it?
“We recognize his atoning work on our behalf”
The Mormon doctrine of the atonement is very different to the Christian view & is definitely not biblical.
“Keep in mind that your current attitude is pretty close to the same attitude many Jews had when Christ came on the scene – the very attitude that caused many to reject Christ outright.”
You fail to see that your attitude, the one you accuse others of having is pretty much a self-description. The pharisaic attitude of most Mormons is clear to anyone who debates with them. It’s your church that lays down rules & laws, your church that brought back the law of tithing, your church that tells us we have to work for our salvation & it’s your church that attempts to put back the chains of the law that Christ removed. In short, like all cults, you make Christs sacrifice meaningless by reintroducing the law.
“And I might add the BoM testifies of this very Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the World and it testifies of no other. So if you want to call that a demonic spirit then you stand in danger of fulfilling Isaiah 5:20:”
So what if the BofM does say that, all it show is that Joseph Smith copied Isaiah from the King James Bible. Your church doesn’t follow the teachings found within it’s pages anyway so please don’t try to frighten me with quotes from Isaiah. I know where I stand with God & it is you who should be concerned about Isaiahs words as his writings can be used to prove the B0fM a 19th century fraud. Before quoting plagiarized words to me you would do well to remember the words from Matthew 7:21
“if you have a specific scripture verse that plainly states that God would never call another prophet or reveal more knowledge from heaven please post it.”
Don’t put prophets & revealing more knowledge in the same sentence. God spoke through His prophets before Christ came. Since that time God has been speaking through his Church. The gift of prophecy is still with us, prophets in the mormon sense of the word, are not.
I don’t need to post any verse, most of the New Testament is concerned with that subject, you look for specific verses to take out of context instead of considering the gospel message. Read what I’m saying jason, The time of the prophets ended with the Old Testament, the coming of Christ was the fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy, the entire Old testament leads to His coming. Can you not understand that? Christ was the fulfilment of all that had gone before, what need is there of new prophets? Try reading the Bible without the confirmation bias of Mormonism & you might find that out for yourself. What you know of Christ is head knowledge you know only a partial Christ because the spiritual knowledge is not there. Every non-Mormon here understands what I’m saying, so ask yourself why you don’t
Jason said
Can you back this up with evidence? Or is it just a (I hope so) Idea from you?
Jason said
Sadly you dont know better, You still choose to believe in fairy tales. You might be honest enough to say I cannot explain the barges, But on the other hand, you still be believe your god is so incompetent that he will tell some one to build a barge airtight to the point they would die, But then even sadder is for him to say, put air holes with plugs in it. Then if you pull a plug and water comes in, put the plug back in.
Seriously, have you really thought about this? If you standing flat in the ship and you pull the plug above you an water comes in, then it would come in with such force you would not be able to get the plug back in before you sink like a rock. Even if you make some excuse for it, all that water would still ruin things in the boat you cannot sleep in that water, and it is not sanitary. No matter how you look at it, it makes your god look like the fool he is and exposes him as the liar he really is, and the Bible says Satan is the god of this world, he was and is a liar, and many people are his children. Sums you up.
Then I notice you still have no response to where the evidence for reformed Egyptian, yet you seem to have lots of evidence for some trail in another country, yet admit in so many words, this evidence is not solid evidence but hardcore speculation.
I do. I just read the sentence IN CONTEXT. It reads, “it is wisdom that this land SHOULD BE KEPT AS YET FROM the knowledge of other nations” (This “knowledge” as the BOM explains would come later with the “Gentiles”).
You can’t even comprehend a simple sentence. Also you forgot something or ignored it, “and THEY SHALL BE KEPT FROM ALL OTHER NATIONS, THAT THEY MAY POSSESS THIS LAND UNTO THEMSELVES.”
Kept from ALL other Nations… that they may POSSESS THE LAND UNTO THEMSELVES. That means THEM ALONE, NO OTHER NATIONS. Get it? It’s what the Book says. Take some reading comprehension courses and you might in time. (But I bet you’re thinking that you’re too smart for that).
No proof. Zero, nada, zip. You haven’t proved a thing except that a fictional character was buried in a place that in the real world would have never happened. So, that’s the “thousands” of proofs. Wow. No comment on the valley of fictional Lemuel?
Oldman said “you can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”
Maybe I am wrong, but I would think if you rub his tongue down with salt, he will drink then.
Anyway, I like to say, You can lead a mormon to Logic, but you cant make him think.
Notice all the questions Jason avoids and things he cannot or does not answer, We lead him to logic as I said, we sadly cannot make him think.
Jason said
Sadly I wish I could say the same about you Jason, I honestly have to say I did expect that from you, so that really is to bad.
If you were me Jason you would know how to spell assess.
Old Man,
“The pharisaic attitude of most Mormons is clear to anyone who debates with them. It’s your church that lays down rules & laws, your church that brought back the law of tithing, your church that tells us we have to work for our salvation & it’s your church that attempts to put back the chains of the law that Christ removed. In short, like all cults, you make Christs sacrifice meaningless by reintroducing the law.”
Let me ask you, did Christ do away with the ten commandments? Because Christ came is it OK to kill now? To steal? Cheat your neighbor? I think you may be confusing the Law of Moses with the requirements needed to enter God’s kingdom. I think it’s a LAW of God’s kingdom to not kill, would you agree?
Why are you SO put off by works-based salvation when it takes nothing but WORK to build God’s kingdom on this earth. There is NO other way to do it so you bet we’ll be engaged in a good cause our entire lives.
Also show me where in the bible that is plainly states that I will go straight to Hell for works? Where does it say that? When GBH said we have a different Christ he very specifically meant the mainstream recognition of the unbiblical creeds “of one undivided substance”.
You take out that ONE phrase of your holy unbiblical creeds and we have much more in common. “Of one undivided substance” is where we part ways. But that doesn’t change the atonement of Christ now does it? Not at all.
But according to you the atonement is SO powerless that it can’t save someone JUST because they believe that Christ appeared in the America’s to a branch of the House of Israel. But yet it can save Hitler on his death bed.
And according to your theology the atonement is SO powerless that it can’t save me because I acknowledge Christ and then get to work. So who has the bizarre theology and limits the atonement of Christ?
God forbid the Mormons are baptizing for the dead so they are going straight to hell but child molesters and murders are welcomed right in after a prayer or two. No wait, it’s even better than that. There’s actually a Web page out there that offers “One Click Salvation” – seriously.
Here’s the details of a popular Website on salvation that says what one must do to be saved:
Would you like to follow the Romans road to salvation? If so, here is a simple prayer you can pray to God:
“God, I know that I have sinned against you and am deserving of punishment. But Jesus Christ took the punishment that I deserve so that through faith in Him I could be forgiven. With your help, I place my trust in You for salvation. Thank You for Your wonderful grace and forgiveness – the gift of eternal life! Amen!”
Have you made a decision for Christ because of what you have learned through the Romans road to salvation? If so, please click on the “I have accepted Christ today” button below.”
That is YOUR religion Old Man. If you think that’s the way to salvation then good on ya. I tend to disagree.
Barges like that ARE stupid and impossible. The BOM is 19th century fiction. That is a FACT.
Jason, How come Jesus quote the OT, And quotes all the way back to Adam, yet if the BoM people existed among the Jews as you say, then we never see or read Jesus quoting BoM people, but we read in the BoM people quoting Isaiah for example, but whats funny is, it is word for word KJ English. Isiah did not speak in KJ English. So outside of flat out plagurism how do you explain that?
If you claim they added later, then I will say, I own a 1977 triple combo and their are ZERO footnotes saying these verses were added later, no mention ever. Then just like that, I had some MM over my house, I took their newest edition BoM, should them where it says, the blacks will become pure, Showed them the same verse in my BoM, it says, Blacks will become white.
I explained How I can see a black man’s skin go from Black to white, but I cannot see a black man go from black to pure. Pure what? This shows a false book, The fact that the black skin was never lifted and the blacks are not white shows a false prophet. Sadly the MM in my house could not show me in my book where in noted this change. You cannot explain this false prophecy any more than you can explain why your false prophet taught Adam God.
Jason,
Let me say this again, Your a JOKE. Why are you here? You still avoid questions because you cannot answer them. You harp on oldman saying he has a bad view of salvation, yet when I asked you to back it up from the Bible you have failed to show me.
I said, Show me from the Bible where we must do works to be saved? Then explain how it is we humans can be exalted to god like status, yet Satan tried and was kicked out of heaven.
Then if you are able to answer these questions from the Bible, then you need to explain this, LDS believe the Bible is translated incorrectly, so how do you know that the verses you use to show me I am wrong are not translated incorrectly? Then if Your false prophet said, the German translation is the most correct why are you not using that version.
Before you start running your mouth telling people like Old man he is wrong, why dont you put on your big boy pants and take me on with these issues, Your running your mouth, so back it up.
Rick, Grindael, Old Man, Falcon,
Let’s get to the heart of the matter here. Everything I’m about to tell you is absolutely 100% true. I went to the gotquestions (.com) Webpage and then went to the Roman’s Road to Salvation page where I followed the instructions precisely. I did the following:
Would you like to follow the Romans road to salvation? If so, here is a simple prayer you can pray to God:
“God, I know that I have sinned against you and am deserving of punishment. But Jesus Christ took the punishment that I deserve so that through faith in Him I could be forgiven. With your help, I place my trust in You for salvation. Thank You for Your wonderful grace and forgiveness – the gift of eternal life! Amen!”
Have you made a decision for Christ because of what you have learned through the Romans road to salvation? If so, please click on the :
“I have accepted Christ today” button below.”
I clicked the button. And then I filled out the form to request the ‘What Now’ brochure that will explain what I do now that I’ve accepted Christ.
So my question to you guys: Am I saved now? Are we now brothers in Christ?
Jason,
I know you wont like my answer but here it is. It all depends if you still believe JS is a prophet of God and you still follow your false Mormon prophets.
Now if you say you still believe in Mormonism, then no your not saved, and I know you will ask, well why is that the case. The Bible tells us in no uncertain terms, Their are false Gospels, false christs, false leaders and teachers. Paul even says in Gal, that if you have a false gospel you will be damned.
It is not a matter of works, it is a matter of having the correct Jesus. You simply cannot take a rock and call it Jesus, or you cannot look to a man and say, I will call Him Jesus and follow Him.
I have said this before to other LDS. If You Jason were so say, I know Rick, he is clean shaven, his favorite color is pink, he has blond hair and hates Violence, then anyone that really knows me would tell you, you are talking about a different Rick.
I have lots of facial hair, I despise shaving, have not shaved fully in at least 10 years. I have a mohawk and I am a fighter, did submission style fighting for 6 or so years and wont run from nobody.
This is the same with Jesus, His word the Bible tells us who He is, we know about Him, yet if we start to describe as we want Him to be and say things about Him that are not true, or believe things about Him that are not true, then we will here Him say, Depart from me, I never knew you.
Jason, I have a reply to you, but as usual it is in Mod Jail. I just posted it a minute ago, but who knows when it wll break out of Jail.
What is “the heart of the matter” Jason?
I know a guy who joined the Mormon Church, then went through the Temple with a camera just to get to see what it was all about. Will he be saved in the Celestial Kingdom?
Rick,
I did exactly as the Romans Road to Salvation prayer says. Why are you adding all of these requirements to the Gospel? The site makes no such requirements. The site is extremely clear on how to obtain salvation and I did as it said.
So I think you are saying Christ isn’t powerful enough to save me if I believe He visited other areas of the world after His resurrection? I just want you want you on record confirming that.