Eldred G. Smith, considered the “Patriarch to the Church”, affirmed a belief that is still popular today among Mormons:
“I cannot for a minute conceive the telestial being hell, either, because it is considered a heaven, a glory. The Prophet Joseph Smith told us that if we could get one little glimpse into the telestial glory even, the glory is so great that we would be tempted to commit suicide to get there.” (March 10, 1964, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1964, p. 4)
In doing some research for an upcoming article on the afterlife in Mormonism, I discovered that the above is an unfounded, “faith-promoting rumor”. When I bring up the hellishness of the bottom two “heavenly” kingdoms, I have had many Mormons bring the “suicide” story to alleviate the problem. On this common belief Robert Millet and Kent P. Jackson write,
“Regarding ‘surpasses all understanding’: A rather common notion in connection with this verse is that Joseph Smith had taught that if we knew what the telestial kingdom was like, we would commit suicide to get there. What the Prophet said was not in reference to the telestial kingdom, but to life ‘behind the veil,’ which may mean a number of things.The Prophet’s statement (Charles Walker quoting Wilford Woodruff quoting Joseph Smith) is as follows:
“Br. Woodruff spoke. . . . He refered to a saying of Joseph Smith which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator. (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker, ed. by A. Karl Larson and Katherine M. Larson [Logan, Ut.: Utah State University Press, 1980], vol. 1, pp. 465-66.)” (Robert L. Millet and Kent P. Jackson, eds., Studies in Scripture, Vol. 1: The Doctrine and Covenants, pp. 305-8)
Truman G. Madsen writes on the belief as well:
“Many of us have heard the statement made—and ascribed to either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young—to the effect that if a person could see the glory of the telestial kingdom he would commit suicide to get there. If only we could get the fundamental doctrines across to Church members as rapidly as we get across rumors, everyone would be saved. Am I saying that’s a rumor? Well, I am saying this, that over a period of many years I have combed everything Joseph Smith said and wrote, and I can’t find it. Hugh Nibley has done the same with Brigham Young’s words, and he can’t find it. It is hard to prove a negative, of course. What I can say is that we have found a statement from Joseph via Wilford Woodruff that says something else that is close, and I suspect it is the origin of the alleged statement (see Diary of Charles C. Walker, August 1837, in Church Historical Department). Elder Woodruff said the Prophet taught this, roughly: that if we could see what is beyond the veil we couldn’t stand to stay here in mortality for five minutes. And I suggest from the context that he was not talking about the telestial kingdom. He was talking about what it was like to be in the presence of God and the family.” (The Radiant Life, p. 91)
Do Mormons believe in hell?
“Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.”
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=a5352f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____
I would argue that Mormons conceptually think of hellish places in three ways, the third being the torment experienced in the bottom two kingdoms of “heaven”.
Actually, that would be damnation. To be damned is to be put out of the presence of God. Any state that is thus is damnation, therefore anything lower than the celestial kingdom is damnation.
Sounds like an issue of semantics. I don’t know how not to describe the damnation of torment and regret and banishment from the presence of the Father as anything but “hellish”.
The lowest place in the order (ie where Satan and his followers are) is also known as Outer Darkness and it is not considered a ‘glory’. But whatever they are called I have been taught and I have mentioned this a number of times that those who do not achieve the Celestial Kingdom will be in their own “private” hell, as they knew they could have done better but they did not. It’s like going for an exam in this life where you thought it would be easy and didn’t put enough effort in it and thus did poorly. You kick yourself because of it every time it is mentioned.
Ralph, given your comment, wouldn’t it then be true that Mormonism speaks of three kinds of hell, the third of which encompasses two kingdoms of heaven?
Anything outside of sweet union and fellowship with the Triune God – Father, Son, and Spirit – is hell.
Jacob, could you please give some Biblical references of what you have just said:
“Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.”
Well, I am sure you are well versed in the Bible. I would not go as far as to show question of your knowledge in that area.
To put such a constrant is like saying to describe the world by just referring to Asia. While Asia is most definitely a part of the world, it most certainly is not every part. I believe in looking at the whole “atlas” so to speak.
You have the link, and you have eyes.
How about this question. What happens to those who have never had a chance to learn of Christ in this life, or what of those who may have been apart of your faith but at some point join my faith and eventually die in that faith? Tell me what happens and give me the bible reference.
Jacob5, it sounds like you’re trying to change the subject to avoid the Biblical testimony on the subject of what heaven and hell are really like. There is no evidence that people in “heaven” will suffer hellish torment, banished from family and from the presence of Heavenly Father. And there is no evidence that “hell” will be anything but everlasting and eternal and never-ending torment—that is, if you read the phrases “eternal” and “everlasting” and “tormented day and night forever and ever” with English grammar in mind.
I am not changing anything. If what the view of the LDS church about the afterlife is so wrong, provide the alternative. What happens to those who die outside or leave your faith?
Perhaps a little clarity of what you believe in may help resolve a few things about this discussion.
Because appearently our faith is such an open book to you all. I would like to just see a couple chapters of yours.
After doing a bit of reading I found this scripture that shows that there are 2 hells – one is until the resurrection and the other is after the resurection which is then eternal. This is the second death, or as the LDS call it spiritual death, meaning living away from God’s presence.
Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Jacob5, those who reject the Biblical Jesus will go to what the Bible calls “eternal torment”. Those who embrace the Jesus Christ of the Bible will have “eternal life”. Within hell there will be varying degrees of punishment according to one’s works. Likewise, within heaven there will be varying degrees of rewards for what one did in this life. Not any saint in heaven, however, will be stagnant, but will, contrary to mainstream Mormonism, ever-increasingly grow in the knowledge and enjoyment of the one true God.