From “The Mormons Are Coming!“, by Daniel Brook of GOOD Magazine:
“We’re going pretty deep into this theology thing,” President Boone [of the Provo MTC] says a bit uncomfortably. When Jesus returns, he says, the New Jerusalem will be located on the Missouri side of suburban Kansas City. “The church has many holdings, property-wise, real estate-wise there,” Boone says. He also confirmed what is arguably the Church’s most unusual teaching of all—the polytheistic doctrine that one day, righteous Mormons will become gods and live with their families forever. As Boone explains, the fifth prophet of the Church taught, “As man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may become.” Boone quotes chapter and verse from the Old and New Testaments to support the claim that Christianity was always intended to be polytheistic, with righteous human beings eventually becoming gods. “In the creation account in Genesis it says, ‘Let us make man in our own image’… and we believe that. I’m not sure about everybody else. When Christ was giving the Sermon on the Mount, he directed them ‘to be perfect, even as their Father in heaven was perfect.’ Well that’s quite a charge. So most Christians would say and most Jews would say and most Muslims would say that we ought to be more God-like in our activities. So where do you draw the line. Is He happy if we’re 5 percent like Him? If we’re 10 percent? Fifty percent? The charge is ‘Be therefore perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.’ So we take that very literally and that raises the ire of some. They say ‘You’re dragging God down to human level’ but it’s just the opposite.”
Boone assured me that I, like all people, had the potential to become a god. “The fact is, sure. You would have procreative power, you would have your own offspring, you would create your own worlds.”
“Could I create a universe?” I asked incredulously.
“Absolutely.”
The promise of one day becoming a god is seductive.
Kudos to president Boone for admitting to something many official representatives of the LDS Church would squirm to think of publicly affirming so explicitly!
Aaron, still trying to push this lame subject, even though you got shut down on CC and your topic was locked out for very good reasons. I’m sure you will delete this, so it’s more a PM for you.
HankSaint.
I don’t think the subject is lame at all, but rather very relevant. This major doctrinal difference separates Mormonism from Christianity and shouldn’t be concealed.
Hank, you say this topic is lame, So your saying, that Jesus really did say this?
Wow, I do not remember that in the Bible and not only that, but that is a false Prophecy and if that is false, then the jesus you serve is false, and then that means the jesus you serve cannot save you, so that means you will end up apart from the real Jesus forever. Rick b
How on earth could you consider this a “lame” topic?? And what is CC? (I assume you can’t discuss Mormon theology freely there)
So the Mormons really do believe we are going to be equal to God, and have our own little universes…is this sort of like students having their own “projects”? Like “hey, I’m going to start a planet over here, make some humans on it, and have them worship me”?
But that goes against all the verses that describe heaven as a place where we worship God for all eternity, and “cast our crowns at his feet”. Heaven is repeatedly described as total communion with the Lord – but never once is it even hinted that we will be gods ourselves!
This sounds like greek mythology now. Maybe we’ll also be assigned powers, like the god of the sea, fire, love, war, etc.
oh – and did you all hear the news of Gordon Hinckley’s death today?
No one is trying to hide from what we believe, Aaron. The simple fact that you can easily find just about anything we’ve taught, through church resources, negates this silly conspiracy theory you continue to propogate.
The author makes a mistake, however. The doctrine that we, as God’s children, might have all that He has- become like Him- is not a polytheistic doctrine at all. We only worship one God. PERIOD.
This doctrine gives a lot more meaning to the Atonement. For we cannot progress without His atoning for our sins. We cannot progress without His example and teaching. But are we required to submit our will? Yes. And usually that means action. Submit our will through faith (faith without works is dead-James 2:20-22). I believe common Christian church’s don’t answer a lot of questions, and maintain very superficial positions on our purpose here and purpose in the next life. Knowing those two things provides great direction, like a compass. Not knowing those things makes it difficult to really grasp the doctrines that the Savior taught and point yourself toward any kind of goal. Evangelical doctrine is like bubble gum doctrine. Just chew the gum and you’re saved. I have found through His restored Gospel, that the Savior would have more for us here, and especially in the life to come.
WE WILL MISS PRESIDENT HINCKLEY!
Hank, from what I remember the thread was locked on CC because it was practically exhausted. If you’d like to make a substantive response to the quoted I provided, then feel free. Otherwise, why even comment?
Well he know believes in the True Christ, yet his believe will do nothing for him since He died believing in a false Prophet. He will only be tormented for all of eternity by the fact he taught a false Gospel and lead possibly millions into hell for all of eternity. How very sad.
Gal 1:8-9
I hope his death is a wake up call to the LDS, so they do not follow after him in death and get tossed into outer darkness and then understand they were wrong. Rick b
amanda stated, “Evangelical doctrine is like bubble gum doctrine. Just chew the gum and you’re saved.”
In 23 years of being a Christian, and being raised Catholic before that, I have never heard anything such as this taught in any Sunday School class, or from any pulpit. I would hate to think that many LDS truly believe a majority of Christians buy into this. The “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrine has been taken to an extreme in the past.
But likening my faith to chewing bubble gum? That’s almost offensive.
Can we get back on topic to the content of the quote in the original post?
Hello Amanda:
I’ll restrict my question to just one thing you said, although I would also like to address the comment “Evangelical doctrine is like bubble gum doctrine. Just chew the gum and you’re saved” at some point.
You said you worship one God, PERIOD. Which of the three Gods (in the Mormon view, the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate Gods) is the one that Mormons worship? My guess is that you are going to say “Elohim” (The Father), however… we have examples of Jesus being worshipped in the Bible, and it is the very same word in Greek (Proskuneo) as we find when the Bible shows people worshipping the Father, Elohim. See Hebrews 1:6, and other places where Jesus willingly accepts worship such as Matt 2:2, 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, and John 9:35-38. Jesus Himself said that you would worship God only in Matt 4:10, and yet he willingly accepts worship? I was wondering what you do with that?
My friend recently sent me a PDF that was directly relevant to this post. In the PDF, it goes through different arguments for believing in the deification of man. Interestingly, the arguments are not AT ALL based on Mormon writings. They are based on: 1) the words of early Christian fathers (2nd & 3rd century… and there are a good number of them), & 2) Biblical scripture.
What you’re going to love, is that of the biblical scripture presented, there are not one, two, or even a dozen scriptures presented, but 49 passages of scripture (79 verses total)! On top of that, of those verses, there are many presented using 3-5 modern translations of those verses (apart from the King James translation), which shed even more light on those verses.
The article was a fascinating read! To anyone interested in seeing it, you’ll have to email me, because it’s not a link to a site. My email’s dj1989[at]gmail[dot]com
But to the point…. fighting against the idea of deification, or theosis, is a very good example of “kicking against the pricks”. You can certainly not believe the doctrine, if you choose to do so. HOWEVER, to argue that it is un-Biblical (which essentially to an EV, is synonymous with being un-Christian) is an argument that will forever remain unfruitful. What this doctrine really is, is un-Evangelical… which I would agree to (but I don’t exactly believe that being Evangelical is following the fullness of Christ’s teachings, either). But saying that this doctrine is “un-Biblical”? I think not.
dj, if you can provide any biblical evidence that we can become gods over our own spirit children who worship us, and create our own galaxies as Christ did, then I’d be happy to see it.
Hello.
After reading this article and hearing the exchange of words, I’d like to make a proposition. Set aside all LDS doctrine and scripture for the moment and look at the concept of becoming a God from a logical perspective.
Question: How can a finite, carbon-based being such as myself (and everyone else who lives and has ever lived on this planet) become an infinite, all-powerful deity?
Answer: I cannot.
Proof #1: Everything that has form must perish eventually. God has always been an infinite being, for how else could he have created the Universe? Finite cannot become infinite. Therefore, I cannot become an infinite deity.
Proof #2: Humans exist in four different dimensions (including time). God has to exist in every dimension in existence in order to have created the Universe (according to particle physics and relativity, at least ten dimensions of space existed at the creation of the universe). I (as a finite being) cannot transcend more than four dimensions. Therefore, I cannot become an infinite deity.
Now, to bring back scriptures back in.
The Bible states that the universe cannot contain God (1 Kings 8:27). He acts before time even began (1 Corinthians 2:7) and can even compress time (2 Peter 3:8). How else can He be an omniscient, omnipotent being?
The scriptures even state that God has always been God and does not change. Check out this link below if you think I’m putting you on.
http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/you-would-have-procreative-power-you-would-have-your-own-offspring-you-would-create-your-own-worlds/
Finally, even if one were somehow through some extraordinary means become an infinite deity and prove me wrong, do you really think it’ll be as great as many before you have made it out to be?
Read this article I found on MRM and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
http://www.mrm.org/topics/salvation/how-can-being-god-over-your-own-kingdom-really-be-heaven
Any questions?
Sorry. Wrong link. This was th one that I meant to put in place of “The scriptures even state that God has always been God and does not change.”
http://godandscience.org/cults/unchangegod.html
Mike, The Mormons believe it, so that is good enough for them. who needs logic when you have “blind” faith?
Mike Cucuk, There are a few small holes in your arguments –
1) Jesus had a form and it was a carbon-based form. He eventually regained that form in the resurrection and has KEPT it ever since. If He can do it why do you say that everythingthat has form must perish? Yes your argument would be that He is God, but if God can do it, and nothing is impossible for God, then He can do it for us as well. That is the PROMISE of the resurrection – that we will gain these carbon-based forms back, BUT as immortals. They will not perish.
2) I’d like to know your references on the space-time dimensions you have quoted because in first year physics and a couple of references on the internet I can find there is still major discussions as to how many dimensions are in existence. Some say that we as humans live in as many as 6 dimensions (some say more but not many subscribe to this) and that at sub-atomic levels it is many more (10, 11 and 26 are the currently theories). So why do you say only 4 for us?
I will leave the scriptures aside as you have your belief and interpretation and I have mine, but I will go onto answer the last question. Through the scriptures God has become angry at His creations and has destroyed them in many ways. At other times He has become disapointed/saddend about creating them. So using your argument is God in a heaven of bliss and happiness as you wish to believe? In the overall picture according to the LDS faith, the more of His children that become exalted the happier it is. That is the ultimate goal and that is what He has set His sights on. Since there is no death or suffering then yes it can be heaven.
Ralph, I assume that you have read the links I have provided to support my argument. If not, then your rebuttal is, at best, insufficiently researched and weak. Also, while I appreciate your need to correct me, I have the need to reply to your critique.
1) Your first rebuttal surpasses the premise that God and Jesus are united in substance. I’m not surprised, seeing how the LDS Church believes and teaches that they are only united in purpose and that they are separate Gods.
2) Here is the web page that I drew my dimensions for space and time:
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/xdimgod.html
I mention only 4 because these are dimensions that we, as humans, can travel freely around
in (save for time, in which we can only move in one direction: forward) and make certifiable observations for any occuring phenomena. God can do all that, and so much more. How else could be have created the Universe?
As for Jesus, I do not doubt (rather, wholly believe) that He became human in order to fulfill the Atonement. However, in order to be the Son of God, become human, die for all our sins (past, present, and future), rise from the dead 3 days later, and ascend into Heaven, he had to have already been a God. Was He the exception as opposed to the rest of humanity who has to earn the status of infinite, all-powerful deity?
Besides, if tireless personal merit can exalt one to godhood, then there would be no need for a Savior, would there? Even the Bible states this (Galatians 2:21, Isaiah 64:6). Are you willing to bet your salvation (or exaltation, in this case) on your personal merit in hopes that you might reach the highest level of Celestial glory (since that is the only place you can become a god) before an all-holy, infinite deity that does not tolerate sin in His presence?
It’s your choice. Besides, it’s not what I believe, because when it comes to exaltation, my belief (or the lack thereof) is not what makes it true. Do you understand?
A bit of satire for Mike…
After reading Christian thought over the years and hearing the exchange of words, I’d like to make a proposition. Set aside all belief and evidence for the moment and look at the concept that the sun is the center of the universe, and do it from a logical perspective. Please also take into consideration that the Earth in NOT flat.
Question: How can the Earth not be in the center of the universe, when the Earth and the human beings on it are the greatest creation that God has made?
Answer: It cannot.
Proof #1: Of all of the creations on Earth, man is the only one with the capacity to believe in God, and man is the highest form of life on the Earth. Therefore, we are the center of all of God’s creations, and so is the land that we reside on the center of God’s creations in the universe.
Question #2: How can the Earth be anything but flat?
Answer: It cannot.
Proof #1: Through observation, one can see that the earth that we walk on is constantly under our feet. Since the continents of Europe, Asia, and Africa have been explored from sea to sea, and the land has consistently been under the explorers feet, one can conclude that the entire Earth is flat.
Oh wait a second… I’m dealing with the Christians… I just messed up the time period. Sorry about that.
The point is Mike… that kind of logic (even if your logic didn’t look like swiss cheese) isn’t exactly the test of God’s truth. It can only be useful when approached with the right foundation of thought (and almost 100% of the time, man is found lacking in some respect in that regard… thus, the need for direct heavenly counselors in the form of prophets). LDS essentially believe that Christians moved off of the firm foundation of doctrine centuries and centuries ago.
I think it is ironic that from a creed that says we cannot truly know about God can also define what or who God is.
Since the very day that Joseph Smith Jr. had his first vision, that outcries of the christian world had been stirred.
Then we go as far as to say that mankind, the greatest creation of God, is capable of proceeding on the same course (much farther back mind you) as the very creater of mankind, and we hear an even greater uproar. That we, upon receiving resurrected bodies, and following the course that has been layed out for us, can bring more into our same course.
We have never stated that we could ever be God’s equal. We only say that he has provided the example for us to follow.
Yet there are many on this post who have claimed to be the formost knowledge on what our church teaches and then uses that straw man example to pick our beliefs apart.
I really wonder if you practice you faith to better yourselves or do you practice your faith to just simply see how well you can try (and it really is just try) to destroy others.
I have heard members of my faith try to teach lessons on what makes our church better than others and I think they are wrong. But, I have never seen anything on this grand a scale.
If anything, Joseph Smith has prophesied quite well af the world.
There are few things that Mormons love to do more than caricature and misrepresent both the content and historical details surrounding the Nicene Creed 🙂
Given the historical evidence this is an awkward statement. It seems Joseph told one one during this time, and neither his mother Lucy or brother William seem to remember him telling the 1838 version of the First Vision before 1823. Indeed, in Smith’s own 1832 handwritten account of the First Vision he doesn’t mention two divine beings. Kind of an odd thing to forget, like forgetting the name of one’s wife when giving wedding vows.
These kinds of statements are not constructive and are misleading. Mormonism doesn’t teach that we as spirit children will remove Elohim as a Father, but that we will become equal with God in knowledge and power (see chapter 47 of Gospel Principles) and have spirit children of our own who have the same kind of relationship with us that we have with our Heavenly Father. Ironically, Mormons set up a straw man of a supposed straw man, claiming that Christians are actively teaching that Mormons believe they can replace their own God and cease having the same divine being to worship. This reminds me of the Mormon accusation that Christians teach that Mormons have horns. Sounds like a myth to me. Never heard a Christian say it in my life.
Mike, you said Besides, if tireless personal merit can exalt one to godhood, then there would be no need for a Savior, would there? Yes, I believe this as well. But if this is what you believe that we LDS teach and adhere to, you are wrong – this has been the topic of many discussions on this site. We believe that the first and foremost thing which saves is FAITH IN THE LORD, JESUS CHRIST. We then believe that we need to follow His example to achieve the Celestial Kingdom and exaltation. After thinking about it through all of these ‘discussions’ I believe the best way to describe it is that our faith in Jesus is what has saved us from the Second Death (ie not living in God’s presence) and it is what we do that gains us our reward in the Celestial Kingdom. But WITHOUT faith in Jesus Christ we can NEVER enter the Celestial Kingdom NO MATTER WHAT WE DO.
Here are a few references about how our ‘carbon-based forms’ will not be destroyed. John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is
Phillipians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
As for Jesus being the “exception as opposed to the rest of humanity who has to earn the status of infinite, all-powerful deity? I have answered this in other topics. The LDS believe that we have been in existence from forever – we started as intelligences (which can neither be created nor destroyed) then we became spirits, now we are mortal, then we will become immortal. So no, Jesus is not the exception, He just reached that point earlier than us. There is not enough room for a lengthier discussion, go and read my second comment in “Proving Mormonism is Christian” on Jan 15.
Just because Mormonism teaches that Jesus and his work are necessary doesn’t mean it teaches that, if received by faith, they are sufficient. Even those in true merit systems can be helped along by gracious and necessary assistance. But they’re still in merit systems.
“Each of us has been sent to earth by our Heavenly Father to merit eternal life” – Robert D. Hales, “Personal Revelation: The Teachings and Examples of the Prophets”, October 2007 General Conference
“Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life.” – Neal A. Maxwell, “Apply the Atoning Blood of Christ” Ensign, Nov 1997, 22; message from October 1997 General Conference
When infants die they are assured Celestial exaltation in Mormonism, not simply because of God’s sheer grace, but because of having proven sufficient personal worthiness in the pre-mortal existence. If that is not evidence of a relentless merit system, I don’t know what is.
Now, back to the topic of the original post…
When Jesus returns, he says, the New Jerusalem will be located on the Missouri side of suburban Kansas City.
Wow, I do not remember that in the Bible and not only that, but that is a false Prophecy and if that is false, then the jesus you serve is false, and then that means the jesus you serve cannot save you, so that means you will end up apart from the real Jesus forever. Rick b
This is off topic, sorry Aaron, but I did not ask the question.
Rick where does it say in the Bible the New Jerusalem will be located? And why is it called a New Jerusalem?
1). The book of Revelation speaks of “the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven” (Rev. 21:2, 10)
2). The prophet Isaiah declared that in a future time “out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem” (Isa. 2:2-3; cf. Micah 4:1-2). Latter-day Saints believe this refers to the two Zion headquarters in the two hemispheres from which the Messiah, the returned Son of God, will reign triumphantly over the whole earth.
3). And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:2-3).
“But likening my faith to chewing bubble gum? That’s almost offensive.”
ObiONE,
Well, I’m glad it was ALMOST offensive and not actually offensive. I was not attempting to paint with a broad brush YOUR personal experiences with the Holy Ghost, and your learning thus far. I’m sure you surpass me. I was referring to Evangelical doctrine- which has nothing to do with you. It isn’t personal. (I am sensing a double standard here)
Evangelical doctrine, as I have come to understand it, does not teach anything beyond Grace, Heaven, and Hell. His grace and purpose means to bring about much more than what evangelical doctrine suggests, which so far I have learned that we float around on clouds after this life and just sing praises to God. To me, that’s bubble-gum. I’m sorry, but I hardly think God’s creations/children will meet their full potential just floating around in heaven.
What is our purpose after this life? We are talking an eternity here folks! We progress in this life, we have families in this life– and now all of the sudden when we die, the model changes? Why would God put us in these situations if we aren’t suppose to learn and grow? And what good would that learning and growing do if we don’t have an eternity of progression and joy to experience in the next life? Aren’t we learning how to learn? Aren’t we striving to be better people every day? Isn’t this all possible because of the Atonement? I’m sure his sacrifice meant to bring about much more than our floating along on clouds.
Now, I freely admit there is much I am missing in terms of how Ev’s feel about their doctrine. I am only expressing answers I have received from my in-laws who are life-long practicing evangelicals. I would love to learn more, if indeed I am missing something. I certainly hope, for your sake, that I AM missing something.
Fletcher,
I appreciate your attempts at being clever but our belief is quite simple.
We worship God. Period. I pray to only one God, in the name of my Savior, Jesus Christ. God is our Heavenly Father. Jesus Christ atoned for our sins so that we could live with Him again…He is one in purpose with God…but not the same being.
Polytheism is usually understood to be heretical because they believed in fictional Gods- many gods who were not necessarily one in purpose- they were actually at odds with each other in purpose. In terms of our belief, we have only ONE Heavenly Father whom we worship– and suggesting that because we believe in Christs’ divinity means we are a polytheistic religion is simply incorrect. That term means much more to people than what the dictionary suggests. And those who apply it to our faith are not seeking to be technically accurate, but are seeking to mislead. And you know that.
And let me shift the paradigm a little here. Ev’s think that anything that is outside of the mold of what the Nicene Creed formed is heretical. I suggest that anything outside of God’s word is heretical. And who gets to decide what God’s word is? Well, God, not a convention in Nicea. He has revealed His word and purpose through prophets and scripture- not conventions- since the beginning of time. The restored gospel is true to this mold.
I don’t think the question under discussion here is whether or not polytheism is heretical, but whether Mormonism is polytheistic. It has been stated by our LDS friends that Mormons worship God the Father. It has also been stated on this blog (and by LDS Authorities) that Latter-day Saints also worship Jesus Christ. Furthermore, according the LDS Bible dictionary, Heavenly Father is one God; Jesus Christ is another God. Therefore, simple logic tells us that Mormons engage in the worship of two Gods. Though Amanda doesn’t care for the dictionary definition of polytheism, for lack of a different one, according to the standard definition (“belief in or worship of more than one god”) it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Mormons (and by extension, Mormonism) are polytheistic. If Evangelicals are wrong in their conclusion, they have a good excuse based on the foregoing facts. How else are we to understand the LDS admission of their worship of two Gods? Call it whatever you like, but the fact remains that Mormonism promotes (and I might even say requires) worship of more than one God.
Those who try to wiggle out of this aspect of Mormon doctrine by equivocating are not seeking to be technically accurate; but are [they] seeking to mislead[?] I sincerely hope not.
Why is the EV crowd so afraid of more knowledge about God? To further God’s work has got to be more interesting then singing hymns for all eternity at God’s feet. Why is it so heinous to become like our Father in Heaven?
as quoted by Mike:
The Bible states that the universe cannot contain God (1 Kings 8:27). This only adds to the Mormon point that there is heaven upon heaven (creation was before us and continues after this earth, God’s Work). 1 Corinthians 2:7) This only proves the Mormon Doctrine of pre-existance “ordained before the world OUR GLORY;” Mike ask yourself who the ‘princes’ are. “Mystery, even hidden wisdom.” Knock and it shall be given unto you, seek and yea shall find.
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God.. Gal 4:7 ..then an heir of God through Christ.
Sharon,
I think you misunderstand me. To quibble over whether we are a polytheistic religion is beside the point. When one categorizes our religion that way with obvious equivocation, the assumption is that we don’t worship the God of the bible- or Jesus Christ for that matter. And this is the categorization that many allude to erroneously in order to mislead. That is the dysfunction of using such a term, it’s biased. Semantics is the obvious game evangelicals play with the usage of this word. There are definitions of words, and there are perceptions of words, a reality you cannot ignore, Sharon, even if you own the Oxford English dictionary.
If in the last days evangelicals find out that the trinity was a bunch of bologna, will they then have to consider themselves polytheistic?
We do not place any other God before our Heavenly Father, regardless of our understanding of Christ and His eternal purposes.
I read through the posts here in one sitting top to bottom and it is really quite evident (as if anyone could doubt it) that we’re dealing with two totally different religions here; Mormonism and traditional Christianity. So,Mormonism is not traditional Christianity. It’s something else. I can see where Mormonism would have an appeal to some people. Becoming a god, having your own universe, pretty heady stuff. There is no proof for it of course, but I imagine it’s fun to believe in, and it could make someone feel good emotionally just thinking about it. And it’s always fun to buck the establishment. Too many holes in the narrative though. But you gotta love those feelings.
So let me get this straight. According to the Ev belief, God is vain, whimsical, egotistical and a tantrum thrower. He created us for His own pleasure and enjoyment to do with us as He wishes. When things do not go the way He wants to on this earth He can (and has and will) destroy most or all of His own creation to get it back on track to how it suits Him. And when this life is over for His creations they are there for the rest of eternity singing praises to Him and worshiping for His own pleasure and self fulfilment. This whole existence that we have is just for Him, like a toy or TV that He can discard if He doesn’t like it or if it breaks or He can destroy when He gets angry. So what’s the meaning of life for us if that’s all it is for God?
At least that’s how I interpret most of what you Evangelicals have been saying about this life and the next.
dj1989, while I am a man of high tolerance for others’ opinions, I have to be honest. Your satire is more of an ad hominem, leaving my argument completely unanswered. If it’s my logic you are challenging, then perhaps you need to reconsider where you stand on trying to refute my well-researched arguments.
Nowhere in the Bible is geocentrism taught. Quite the contrary, the Bible states that the heavens control the earth (Job 38:33). Also, nowhere in the Bible does it state that the Earth is flat. The word “flat” occurs only a few times in the Bible, none of which is associated with the Earth. Synonyms, such as level, plain, plane, even, or horizontal are never used in reference to the entire Earth, but only to specific geographic areas.
God gave us two hears that we may hear both sides of the argument (Matthew Henry, Commentary on the Whole Bible, Volume 3). God also gave us a brain so that we may know what is right from wrong, and not just trust what our heart tells us. The Bible even says so (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 28:26). Many people before us have done terrible things with full assurance in their heart that they were hearing from God and doing His will. This is simply to illustrate that what our hearts tell us is not always reliable.
Next time, try and answer my argument with a proper rebuttal and not just an interrogation of my approach from a logical perspective. Thank you. I’m looking to your reply.
Raplh, you said: “Jesus is not the exception, He just reached that point earlier than us.” That’s an incorrect answer. Why do I find that to be so?
According to LDS theology, the Pre-existence was where there was a council of the gods (Abraham: Heading and Chapter 4). Jehovah and Lucifer (which your Church teach are spirit brothers of each other) were the eldest members at that council. So, before the creation of the Universe, Jesus’ plan of salvation was accepted over Lucifer’s. So, Jesus was a god from the get-go. Therefore, he was the exception. As for me, I don’t make exceptions, because an exception disproves a rule.
Now, I have a question for you (courtesy of MRM): Isaiah 44:6,8 says that there is no God beside the God of the Bible and that this God does not know of any other gods. If this is Jesus (Jehovah) speaking —as attested to by such LDS leaders as Apostle Bruce McConkie (The Promised Messiah, p.312)— does that mean Jesus does not know His own Father? If you were to actually become a god, would God know you?
Believe me when I say. If there were certifiable, Biblical doctrine (in context, of course) that showed that I could become an all-powerful deity, I would not hesitate to follow the instructions. But there isn’t, so I won’t.
I have a Mormon family friend who is 70 years old. The other day he told me why Book Of Mormon is true. He continued to say Joseph has studied only until 6 th grade, but it was God who enabled him to translate the golden plates, and ended up with English a 6 th grade boy cant write.
He said some 1000 people are getting converted to Mormonism because it is true. I asked him about Jesus whether he was a polygamist. He said no. I told him there are documents saying he had wives. He said that is being said by ANTI-MORMONS. When I told him about the Mormon leaders who wrote about Jesus had wives. He was little perplexed.
His reply gave a shock to me. He said whats the wrong if Jesus had wives? He also said GOD WILL ALLOW POLYGAMY TO HAVE HIS CREED if a war comes, and people die.
God made man in his image. (Genesis 1:26) We are His children. (Romans 8:14-16; Acts 17:29; Deut. 14:1; D&C 76:24) As His children, we are commanded, “be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48) In order to become perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect, he must have provided within us the ability to become like him. He established His church by providing religious leaders for “the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.” (Ephesians 4:11-13)
Because we are God’s children, we become “heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.” (Romans 8:17; Galatians 4:6-7; Revelations 21:7; D&C 84:38; D&C 88:106-107) An heir is defined as “a person who inherits or is entitled to inherit the rank, title, position, etc., of another.” We receive “all that the Father hath.” How can you receive all that the Father hath, if something is withheld? And if something is not withheld, how can we receive all that he hath and not become as he is, that is, be gods ourselves? Jesus said, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” ( Revelations 3:21 )
I have to echo Ralph’s sentiment.
ALL EVANGELICALS:
God created us, and He loves us…why else would he send His ONLY begotten son to atone for our sins? Like the story of Abraham and Isaac…Heavenly Father sent His son as a sacrifice on the altar to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
I would like to hear why Evangelicals on this site believe this is significant in regards to the next life? Fill in the blank: Jesus died for my sins so that I can _________. And be specific. Tell us what you think the bible says is our eternal purpose.
Ralph, is how your Church describes God any better?
He is an exalted man, resides on a star called Kolob, and is one of many gods. He has many spiritual wives, giving birth to millions upon millions of spiritual children. He can change His doctrine whenever he pleases, for the new doctrine supersedes the old one. (1984, anyone?) He sacrifices His Only Begotten Son so that people can earn salvation through good works and faith in Him, because faith is, at best, insufficient. Finally, we can earn exaltation, become gods, and repeat an endless cycle of what He has done before us, and His father before Him, and so on to infinity. (By the way, Infinite Regress is a logical absurdity)
At least your rhetoric is more toned down than what some past Church leaders have said about him. This quote in particular struck me hard:
The God of Christianity is described as an idol, and a “loathsome, filthy, debauched, degraded monster.” (John Taylor, J.O.D. 6:167)
To continue on with Amanda’s point, see Romans 5:12-21 the ONE for MANY plan (ie plan of salvation, NOT A MISTAKE) Adam set up the law if ONE could put us all into sin, ONE “Jesus” could save us all. Adam Fell that Man might be was part of the plan to eternal life. Ask yourself what the enternal life is for, hymns? All EV explain Romans 5:19-21 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, SO by the obedience of one shall MANY be made righteous. Moreover the law enterd, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND: here is the kicker- That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto ETERNAL LIFE BY JESUS CHRIST our LORD.
woenigma, while you provide a good Biblical reference to reinforce your doctrine, I must say that it might be simply applied incorrectly. Why do I find this to be so?
The reference encompasses the Fall of Adam and the Atonement, not necessarily that Plan of Salvation. That final verse you provided was, indeed, a kicker. It reads “eternal life through Jesus Christ”, not “exaltation through faith and works”.
I am but one evangelical, but I explained your reference. Perhaps you can mine:
(Galatians 2:16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Mike, Our God is our Father in Heaven and thus acts that way. He loves us regardless of what we do and because of this it hurts Him to see His children fall into the path of sin. But just like any Father on this earth He knows that if He steps in to intervene all the time we will not grow and progress to meet our potential – which is to become like Him. He knew, and so did the VOLUNTEER, that someone had to die to atone for the sins (so yes God sent Jesus to die, but likewise Jesus volunteered, He wasn’t conscripted). This too was most likely an ‘unpleasant’ part of the concept, but it had to be adhered to. Which is why it was a volunteer, not a conscript that did the job. In that, Jesus, being our older brother showed great love as He knew it was the only way for us to achieve our potential and was willing to do it. So all of this shows a God of love and caring as He has a purpose for us apart from just glorifying Him. And just to touch on that, we teach that God ‘work and GLORY’ is to ‘bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man’. So if we achieve eternal life (ie attain the Celestial Kingdom) then we are glorifying God because we have fulfilled His purpose.
Amanda:
I was asking an honest question, not trying to be “clever”, although thank you for recognizing my cleverness :-).
Seriously.. here’s the point: Trinitarian Theology is repleat in the scriptures, and so is monotheism. Believing that we can become Gods is a “nice idea”, and sure… very tempting to believe, but it is also blasphemy and really makes much of the Bible meaningless and incoherent. So it all ties together and I think I am on topic by asking you which God you worship.
You didn’t respond to my examples of Jesus being referred to as identical to God in the Bible, and also the verses showing Him accepting worship, with the same Greek terminology (a little hermaneutics here). What do you do with that, again I ask? If the disciples worshipped and prayed TO Jesus, then why don’t you also? Were they wrong? I don’t think so.
Every time someone sees God it is in the manifestation of Christ, and yes, that includes the Old Testament. The Bible is very clear that we cannot see God the Father, but yet, God is seen in the Bible, Jesus is worshipped, and Jesus is called God, repeatedly! I could post the plain scriptures on this if you’re interested.
Based on this, there is but ONE God, and therefore we ourselves cannot become Gods – because… again, there is only ONE God! That’s it!
It’s OK if Mormonism is wrong on this, that doesn’t mean that God dies, he’s still here waiting for you to know him as he really is!
To all our mormon friends.
Please do not belittle our Christian beliefs or the people trying to share truth with you. We are doing this because of love and truth. Without the saving power of Jesus’ work we are lost to an eternity of seperation from God.
Now please turn in your KJV to Genesis 3 verse 5 the devil was tempting Eve with a “lie”…”For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes will shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods….It was a lie then and it is still a lie today.
Please do not be deceived. The Bible says “that all have sined and fall short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23. It also says “that all our righteousness is as filthy rags” Isaiah 64:6
The reason true Christians can be assured of thier salvation is because someone else already paid the sin debt. That person Jesus Christ. We’re not putting our trust in our good works but in the work Christ did at the cross. When he said “It is finished” it ment just that. There isn’t anything else to be done except to believe. Genesis 15:6 “And he believed in the LORD and he counted it ti him as righteousness. I’m not saying we shouldn’t do good but don’t confuse goods works with a repentent heart.
Mikeb, I do understand that you are trying to change our ways because you are concerned about our eternal welfare. That is why I went on a mission, to do the same thing. There is nothing wrong with that, but as you pointed out, its the way its done that needs to be refined.
As for your comment on Genesis 3:5 being a lie, have you read further into the chapter? the full verse of Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. So the clarifier is that knowing good and evil is a characteristic of God, and that Adam and Eve did not have at that time (see Gen 2 where it said that they were naked and not embarrassed about it).
Now lets look at Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. So now God is saying that Adam and Eve have become like Him knowing good and evil (now they were embarrassed about their nakedness) – so the Devil did not lie, even God confessed this.
So this verse you used does not support your argument that we cannot become gods – but it also does not support our belief that we can. It does show that we can gain, and do have God-like characteristics.
Mikeb,
Not of any sort of mocery, but, what do you say about the commandments.
1. Is it important to follow the commandments?
2. If yes, is it a byproduct of your salvation or is it just a little bonus help your life?
3. Is whether or not you follow the commandments a portrayal of your salvation?
Here is the example of what I mean, and feel free to correct any of what I say, as I do not have a complete knowledge of your beliefs:
Joe Christian is either born into your faith or is a convert. He believes in the Holy Trinity and all the teachings and proclaims Christ to be his Lord and Savior. Now, if I am incorrect please say so, would he have gained salvation? And from that he comes upon several decisions in his life that have a corresponding commandment. Let’s leave out the total obvious ones such as denying God, or murder and such. What if he sees someone at the side of the road who needs help, whether he decides to help that person or not, will it affect his position of being saved? What if he sees a crime occur, and he has important information that could help the case and protect the innocent, does his decision to come forward or not affect said salvation? Or is it simply that a man who does receive salvation would automatically do the right thing simply because of his salvation? In which case would you say that a man who is not saved would not do the right thing? Then if a man who is saved does committ a sin, is his salvation still in place or is it lost? Or if there are degrees for a sin that man committs that determine at what point he loses his salvation? Now then, since there is repentence, does the act of repentance once again restore salvation, or is it simply because the man was already saved that he would do the right thing because of his salvation already being in place?
Please elaborate on all of this. I know it may be a lot, so any one point at a time can be discussed.
Mike, I read your comments about the dimensions of God. It sound interestingly like “string theory” applied to theology to me, except for the fact that now the string theorists are now moving to 11 dimensions as it seems to better accommodate the theory.
I also ready your comments about the LDS belief in the after life and becoming God, most of which is fairly accurate. But it is apparent you do not believe it. So from the outside looking in, and having not participated in the conversation, what do you have to offer in terms of the “after life”? In other words, if it is not as the mormon’s claim, how will it be? What say you?
Jacob, you said a lot, so I might run out of Space.
If I choose not to help a man on the side of the road or not give info to the police, these will not affect my salvation, I am not saved because I help my fellow man out or not help him, I am saved because Jesus paid my Debt on the cross.
One thing people forget is this, their is salvation and their are rewards we earn in Heaven. I think it was Ralph that used the Parabal Jesus gave about Hiring Workers throught the day, the wage they recived was salvation, no matter if I believe Jesus in my early days, or believe him on my death bed I recive salvation. Yet my rewards differ for the amount of service.
Jacob said
I know many people who reject Jesus yet live very Moral lives and do the “Right” thing.
Jacob said
If I commit a sin, I have John 1:8-9 to fall back on, yet their is a difference between falling down or stumbling since I am not perfect, and simply living in sin and not wanting to follow Jesus.
Jacob Said
I know that Jesus said in Rev 22:19 that if you add to or take away from the words of this prophecy, God will remove your name from the Book of Life. So it is clear that if you tamper with the word of God, your going to have your name removed from the Book of Life. And the Bible says, everyone not found in the Book of Life will be tossed into the lake of fire.
Then in Timothy it says, some people will depart from the faith and turn to Doctrines of Demons. So it seems, Believers again will walk away from the truth. Hope this helps. Rick b
Chuck
Goods works are a result of a changed heart. I’ve seen people use James 2:14 as proof that you also needs works to be saved. What James is saying is, what proof is it that you are a Christian. People in his day just as now were claiming to be believers but their actions were not showing it. He goes on to say “I’ll show you my faith by my works” James 2:18. It is always about faith. Faith trumps works. What did Jesus say after all his miracles? “Your faith has healed you! What does John 3:16 say…whoever believes will be saved. Also check out John 6:28-29.
Works or good deeds whatever you want to call it are to show the un-believing world that Gods ways are right. As for following the ten commandments. Can anyone say with all honesty that they have kept all of them. Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust in your heart then you’ve committed adultry the same with hating your brother…you’ve committed murder. There is nothing we can do to be good enough for the standard that God requires. So what do we do? We can try to be good by following the commandments, obey the rules of the church or what ever your particular religion says or, we can let Jesus pay the price for us. He was the only perfect one.
That’s is the reason Jesus paid our sin debt because no matter how hard we try we just cannot always do the right thing. That’s what sets Christianity apart from all other beliefs including Mormonism. We are saved by Gods free grace when we believe Jesus died and was buried and rose again to pay the price God required for the penalty of sin. All other religions have some sort of works that go along with receiving salvation. I’ll put my trust in Jesus and he said “I will never leave our forsake you. I’m going to mess up and that’s a fact but I don’t have to worry that it’s going to make me lose my salvation because the Gods word assures my salvation and God does not lie Hebrews 6:18
Can you say the same thing?
Well, here is the situation that I get from the ministry of Christ. He had been among the Jews. The Jews had 2 main beliefs:
1. They were sons of Abraham. This meant to them that they already had a high position in relation to the gentile nations.
2. They also strictly followed the law of Moses. This, I believe, why there are many statements that told people to believe in Christ.
The Jews had fallen into a pit of believing that all they had to do was follow the Mosaic law and they forgot that the whole point of the Mosaic law was to remind them of Christ’s eventual final sacrifice. So what do you tell people who already (there were good Jewish people in Christ’s time as well who did not become christian)follow the law and commandments? Believe in Christ.
The general history of the Israelite nation was, before being devistated by other kingdoms they had tried to become like the other kingdoms (wanting a king, etc.) which eventually leads to their destruction. Then, after returnin from exile they went the completely opposite direction. Instead of setting themselves up as an example to the world, they believed themselves to be above the other nations. Then they lost the true belief of what the Messiah should be, instead they sought someone who would “save” them from the Roman rule. They weren’t expecting a Man to save them from eternal bondage. That the Messiah would teach peace and not revolt against their oppressors. Yet they still maintained the Mosaic law (at some points to a nearly oppressive level of their own) and they felt that those “works” alone would save them.
I believe where the whole faith and works argument stems from. Do our works alone save us, no. But works after the faith in the Savior which is what they should have done. If a member of our church becomes so strict in the following of the commandments that he forgets the reason we need to follow them, he is no better than a person of Christ’s time.
OK, I’ll go on a different tack 1 Where do we get the idea that works AND faith are necessary – I don’t know, may be some of these verses?
Ps 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work
Prov 24:12 and shall not he render to every man according to his works?
1 Pet 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work
Rev 20:12 and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works
Rom 2: 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Matt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
And for baptism being required –
1 Pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
I liked the way another LDS described it in an earlier article – Its like a pair of scissors, it will not work with just the one or the other, both are necessary for proper function. But as Jesus taught in Matt 7:21-23, we must have faith in Him and accept Him as The Christ or our good works will mean nothing. But LDS teach that FIRST is faith and the good works COME FROM that faith/conversion. If they don’t, then they are no good to our salvation.
Are works simply necessary as an after-evidence of genuine, authentic faith which alone saves (brings immediate and permanent forgiveness and assurance of eternal life), or are they necessary as part of a meritorious precondition for proving oneself worthy of forgiveness and eternal life?
Simplying say that “faith and works are necessary” and “faith and works go together” avoids the watershed issues with vague language. Why not cut to the heart of the issue instead of continuing to use unhelpful, superficial rhetoric?
Aaron is using the scrpitures rhetoric? I think Ralph used scriptues, did he not?