From “The Mormons Are Coming!“, by Daniel Brook of GOOD Magazine:
“We’re going pretty deep into this theology thing,” President Boone [of the Provo MTC] says a bit uncomfortably. When Jesus returns, he says, the New Jerusalem will be located on the Missouri side of suburban Kansas City. “The church has many holdings, property-wise, real estate-wise there,” Boone says. He also confirmed what is arguably the Church’s most unusual teaching of all—the polytheistic doctrine that one day, righteous Mormons will become gods and live with their families forever. As Boone explains, the fifth prophet of the Church taught, “As man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may become.” Boone quotes chapter and verse from the Old and New Testaments to support the claim that Christianity was always intended to be polytheistic, with righteous human beings eventually becoming gods. “In the creation account in Genesis it says, ‘Let us make man in our own image’… and we believe that. I’m not sure about everybody else. When Christ was giving the Sermon on the Mount, he directed them ‘to be perfect, even as their Father in heaven was perfect.’ Well that’s quite a charge. So most Christians would say and most Jews would say and most Muslims would say that we ought to be more God-like in our activities. So where do you draw the line. Is He happy if we’re 5 percent like Him? If we’re 10 percent? Fifty percent? The charge is ‘Be therefore perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.’ So we take that very literally and that raises the ire of some. They say ‘You’re dragging God down to human level’ but it’s just the opposite.”
Boone assured me that I, like all people, had the potential to become a god. “The fact is, sure. You would have procreative power, you would have your own offspring, you would create your own worlds.”
“Could I create a universe?” I asked incredulously.
“Absolutely.”
The promise of one day becoming a god is seductive.
Kudos to president Boone for admitting to something many official representatives of the LDS Church would squirm to think of publicly affirming so explicitly!
Jacob, I was making reference to the kinds of phrases I quoted in the previous sentence.
The first sentence does not say anything about it being on our own works, ‘merit’ can also mean ‘rewarded’. You profess that because of your faith you will be rewarded by being able to go to heaven – that is another way of interpreting that sentence.
But let’s not dabble with how to interpret these sentences by words alone – One needs to look at context and target audience. These people are talking to those who already believe in Jesus and have accepted Him as The Christ, their Redeemer. So now they are being reminded that just to profess belief is not enough. I know most of you do not believe the BoM, but since you are discussing our beliefs here is just one scripture which shows that faith/conversion comes first and from that comes the ‘good works’, which is what the LDS believe.
Mosiah 5:2-7 And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant. And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
Another is Alma 5:13-15, but there are more.
So again, both faith and works are necessary for our salvation as it is our faith/conversion which motivates us to follow Christ’s teachings and live a good life, and it is by these works we will ultimately be judged as the Bible says. Jesus taught that the world will be divided into those who believe and those who don’t – THEN the believers will be divided into those who do the correct ‘works’ and those who don’t (Matt 7:21-23; 25:31-46). Does that explain it any better?
First and foremost faith which is the motivator of good works.
Aaron… the fact of the matter is that you read the phrases that you present in an incredibly isolated way, which is not the way that they are supposed to be read, nor is it consistent with the spirit in which they were given. In other words… you don’t understand what they were saying. You may say that it is straight-forward due to the wording… but this is not the case, because nothing in the gospel in fully understood when looking at isolated cases. They must be taken in context… which you simply are not doing.
Actually, your quotes are in complete harmony with the Biblical scriptures that Ralph gave about works (Which was an excellent list of scriptures Ralph) Frankly, I have no idea how one can deny the content of so many direct scriptural teachings; which is we WILL BE JUDGED according to our works (it actually says that… that’s not an interpretation).
To all who would retort with scriptures that talk about faith, please note that the need for faith doesn’t exclude the need for righteous living. Conspicuously, there are very few scriptures speaking against works, and these were typically given in individual cases (like to Jewish converts that were trying to incorporate the Law of Moses).
However, the numerous scriptures about the need for works & faith are all over the place.
“Only through sacrifice can we become worthy to live in the presence of God. Only through sacrifice can we enjoy eternal life. Many who have lived before us have sacrificed all they had. We must be willing to do the same if we would earn the rich reward they enjoy (see Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, p. 58).” – Gospel Principles, p.171
“The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God… Through the Atonement you can live in a world where justice assures that you will retain what you earn by obedience.” – Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign, Nov 2006, 40–42. From General Conference, October 2006.
“God’s eternal purpose is for you to be successful in this mortal life. No matter how wicked the world becomes, you can earn that blessing. Seek and be attentive to the personal guidance given to you through the Holy Spirit. Continue to be worthy to receive it. Reach out to others who stumble and are perplexed, not certain of what path to follow.” – Richard G. Scott, “How to Live Well amid Increasing Evil”, Ensign, May 2004, p.100
“I bear witness of the power and comfort the gift of the Holy Ghost is to those who live worthy of it. What a reassurance it is for us to know that we are not left alone to find the course that we must follow to merit the eternal blessings of our Father in Heaven.” – L. Tom Perry, “That Spirit Which Leadeth to Do Good”, Ensign, May 1997, p.68
“They taught us the importance of being kind to one another, obeying the commandments, and how to receive a fulness of joy and merit eternal life. They have pleaded with us to live more Christlike lives, to emulate the Savior in all we do, and to qualify ourselves to be worthy of the saving and exalting blessings available only in the holy temples of the Lord.” – Robert D. Hales, Hear the Prophet’s Voice and Obey, Ensign, May 1995, p.15
“It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned” (Thomas Monson, “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1988, p.53).
“Though the task seems large, we are strengthened by this truth: ‘The greatest force in this world today is the power of God as it works through man.’ If we are on the Lord’s errand, we are entitled to the Lord’s help. That divine help, however, is predicated upon our worthiness” (Thomas S. Monson, “Your Eternal Voyage,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 2000, p.46).
Keep hedging…
Aaron… you should be embarrassed at calling my comments “hedging”. How can one see an expansion of detail as hedging. Don’t believe for a minute that I have tried to detract from the quotes you’ve presented. They are all true…BUT, that doesn’t mean that you understand them in their full light, as they are only half of the picture.
For a person that studies Mormon theology as much as you do, you should know that Mormons do not teach a gospel of merit. To isolate 1, 2, or even a dozen quotes from church leaders in order to present something in a light inconsistent with the whole teaching is deceptive… what’s worse is that you knowingly do it (after the amount of study that you do, I know that you know what we really teach). In my opinion.. it’s worse than an outright lie, because you’re using half of the truth (not “half-truths”, per se, but “half of the truth”), so when those who know about both halves of the whole say that you haven’t presented information honestly, then you simply refer to the half of the truth you’ve presented and exclaim, “Isn’t this true?… Did I lie?” It’s deviously deceptive.
Your real concern should be addressing Ralph’s scriptures. They are Biblical, they are very straight forward, and they clearly go contrary to the belief of “faith alone”. Why do you avoid that?
Instead of addressing them, you divert from them by trying to take the spotlight off of EV doctrine, and place it on Mormon doctrine, while doing so with a deceptive tactic (using half of the truth), and then by saying I’ve hedged (when I have not) to ensure the focus stays off of EV doctrine. (Again… deceptive in a devious way)
Do we not try to explain ourselves? In regards to this particular doctrine it has been explained very well taking ALL scripture into account. The same cannot be said for EVs in this case.
Boy, this thread got long in a few days! For amanda:
I would never claim to surpass anyone in any kind of spiritual area or matter of knowledge. Like Socrates, I have come to understand that the more I know, the more I know I don’t know.
The Bible does not, to my knowledge, describe exactly what it will be like for us in heaven. There are some scriptures that give us clues (being like angels, singing God’s praises, etc) but anything beyond that is mere guesswork. I think that includes harps, clouds, St. Peter the Pearly Gates, and meeting any kind of full human potential. I don’t see any scriptural references for these issues.
You ask, “What is our purpose after this life? … and now all of the sudden when we die, the model changes? Why would God put us in these situations if we aren’t suppose to learn and grow? And what good would that learning and growing do if we don’t have an eternity of progression and joy to experience in the next life? Aren’t we learning how to learn? Aren’t we striving to be better people every day? Isn’t this all possible because of the Atonement? I’m sure his sacrifice meant to bring about much more than our floating along on clouds.” Your assertions here make a lot of assumptions that are specific to Mormon doctrine and certainly aren’t going to be agreed upon by orthodox Christian persons. From a Judeo-Christian perspective, no one can make himself/herself a better person through works. There does seem to be a lot of debate on that topic here in this thread, and I fall into the Evangelical Christian viewpoint there.
All that to say, your in-laws may have views that are different than other Christians. I know a lot of Mormons, and even they have some differing views on Mormon doctrine, though they would never admit it openly to other Mormons.
Another point-ALL are resurrected the JUST and the UNJUST Acts 24:15. EV please explain what the Judgment is all about if works are of no account. Ralph-Rev 20:12.
More on Jesus and Heavenly Father being seperate- Who are Abraham and Isaac symbolizing when Isaac is almost sacrificed? Even Rev 20:6 states ..shall be priests of God and of Christ.. Many many many more references too them being seperate in the NT why make it confusing and put them together. Christ prayed in the garden to his Father; not himself. Christ teaches us the way by obeying commandments “The Church of Christ” the hope is that we will want to continue on to the “Kingdom of God”. This is different in that we choose to live higher laws to become like God; we are not commanded; we choose. Such as gathering, consecration, works of Abraham. MANY MANSIONS
dj,
I’ve gone over Biblical passages like those mentioned time and time again showing that they fit quite well within evangelical theology. Where I disagree is that they have anything to do with meritorious worthiness that is—yes—so relentlessly part of Mormon theology. Even infants who die go to the Celestial kingdom in Mormonism because they were proven sufficiently morally worthy in the pre-mortal existence (the first estate). Part of the very purpose of life in Mormonism (for the rest of us who don’t die as infants, etc.) is to prove oneself worthy by keeping the Celestial law with a mortal body. That Mormonism teaches a theology of merit is readily accepted among other Mormons I know. You guys need to battle that out amongst yourselves before you complain to us about it.
I have seen very little willingness on the part of Mormons to publicly and unequivocally renounce quotes like these:
In fact, Robert Millet responded in e-mail to the above quote with the words, “Great quote!” Even he wasn’t repulsed by what Joseph F. Smith said. Please, be my guest, read the context of the whole sermon.
What LDS apostle and popular church educator John Widtsoe wrote is still applicable today:
Read that link and see if you have the moral integrity and grace-driven theology to publicly repudiate it as a damning false gospel. I don’t care one bit if you don’t think his words are binding on you or other Latter-day Saints. That is irrelevant. Faith without works is dead. Show works that correspond with a genuine faith in a truly grace-driven theology: Read the words of those like Widtsoe and say with Paul in Galatians 1, “let him be accursed.” Once you’re willing to renounce these kinds of things coming from the mouths of alleged apostles as rank, damning heresy, then I’ll take you seriously. Until then, I am sticking with the conclusion that Mormonism fosters a manipulation of salvation-language that can spin one in circles for years. I’m not so willing to play that game today, so I’m essentially saying: Show us where your loyalties really are.
As is usually the case with written statements of belief, the fullness of what was meant was either not communicated in a way that fully explains the meaning (my weakness in writing), or it was simply misunderstood on the readers end (your lack of understanding which could come from many variables). You and I have spoken much about this in the past, and is one of the main problems with basing one’s knowledge of the gospel off of written text alone. The one example illustrates what has gone awry in the entire Christian world.
Like Robert Millet, I’m not repulsed by that quote. I embrace what was said, as well as what was said by the other prophets/apostles that you quoted. Why would I repudiate it as false? The question is… Why would you? The Bible supports it. Now you may not accept that interpretation… which is fine, but it is strongly supported in the Bible. So if you are going to say that such doctrine is heretical or damning, then you have just moved your argument away from Bible interpretation into the realm of authoritative interpretation. Because we have just used the same set of scriptures to show 2 clearly opposing views. Since your words are so strong (heresy and damnation), you might want to back it up with reasons for believing one’s authority.
You mentioned that those scriptures “fit well” with EV doctrine. I disagree… I followed your link and that web page DOESN’T explain EV doctrine in light of SO MANY scriptures that support that judgment WILL TAKE INTO ACCOUNT ONE’S ACTIONS. It gives very brief definitions of salvation. In fact, under “Progressive Salvation” it claims that one must “walk in faith” in order to receive salvation progressively. (BTW… “Progressive Salvation”??? … that seems to contradict salvation after a confession of faith) But, back to the phrase “walk in faith”. How does one not “walk in faith” without “acting in faith”. Show me faith without works (action), and I will show you faith by works (action).
That works must necessarily follow authentic faith is not in question. Walking in faith, trusting in the person and specific promises of Christ throughout life, brings about the fruit of obedience.
And for the record, dj was not willing to repudiate either the quote from Joseph F. Smith or the quote/chapter from John Widtsoe.
I rest my case.
I will pray for you, Dave.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
For the record…you just rested your case on a confession that I accept Biblically based statements of doctrine. I’m not exactly sure what your case is then. What exactly did you think you were resting your case on? Your relying on the hope that your previous deception (speaking with half the truth about Mormon doctrine) is still in the minds of the reader, and AGAIN you avoided the spotlight on the fallacies of EV doctrine. (Absolutely deceptive)
Now, if we dissect what you just said with the link that you gave us we can still conclude that the doctrine that works are an essential part of salvation.
Isn’t it? Isn’t that what EVs question time and time again? Are you saying that if works DO NOT follow authentic faith, then one CANNOT receive salvation (Progressive Salvation in this case)? Is this not the qualifier for “progressive salvation”… to “walk in faith”?
Isn’t this what Mormon’s have been saying all along? It is! It is obedience that is necessary in addition to faith. And the scriptures clearly show that this obedience to God WILL BE SOMETHING THAT GOD JUDGES US ON.
So, you completely avoided these things: 1) How is your interpretation of the Bible authoritatively correct (which it MUST NEEDS BE, if you are to make claims of heresy and damnation for not believing your interpretation), 2) how those scriptures that strongly support obedience & action fit well into EV doctrine (your link was far from helpful), and 3) How you are justified in using deceptive tactics to achieve your goals
But your case is rested I suppose.
As I said before,
I have repeatedly agreed that works are in some general sense “necessary” and “essential”, but that the watershed issue is in what sense they are necessary and essential. Or in other words, it is agreed that faith and works have a relationship, but the question is over what kind of relationship they have. If works never follow over a long period of time, a person was never born again and justified, and that person will never go to heaven.
Would you be willing to have a friendly recorded audio conversation about this to cover all these issues? Right now I’d rather spend a half-hour summarizing the issues with you and giving each an opportunity to ask questions rather than spending hours repeating myself in text format.
If not, then I think it is sufficiently clear to others that you have refused to renunciate what John Widtsoe wrote about the essential role of earning in salvation. I have rested my case that you do not publicly repudiate what John Widtsoe and Joseph F. Smith wrote.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
“Simplying say”… woops… I meant “simply saying” 🙂
Woenigma,
It is true that all will be resurrected, the just to salvation and the unjust to hell. The question is what justifies men. It is not their own works. All men will be judged on their works and all will fall short. The only difference between one who is saved and one who is damned is not the works they performed, but the work of Christ on their behalf. The Bible and the Gospel of Christ specifically are about God’s plan of redemption and reconcilliation. Salvation and heaven are not about the mormon notion of exaltation. It is sufficient to be reconciled to God through the blood of His Son. Part of the problem with mormon theology (besides being based on a lie) is that it fails to deal with the major Biblical themes of sin, propitiation, justification, etc. If you miss the basic underlying threads that connect the whole thing together, it can be easy to wander off into error.
The questioned I posed was…can a person who is genuinely saved lose their salvation?
According to what the Bible teaches the answer is NO! To say a person could lose their salvation by disobedience would mean they had control of it in the first place. Ephesians 2:8-9 for by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast.
From what has been posted, there seems to be confusion between salvation and judgment. They are two separate issues. Salvation is being saved from hell and eternal separation from God but on the other hand, everyone will face a judgment. The saved person’s works will be judged but not as a condition to receive eternal life but as to what kind of reward they will receive in Heaven. The lost soul will be judged for rejecting Gods plan of salvation through Jesus Christ.
The Bible teaches us that sin and death are passed down through Adam, but Life through Christ. Romans 5:12. We are born with sin and there wasn’t anything we can do about it. The good news is that Jesus has paid the sin debt for us. Romans 5:8 but, God commendeth his love towards us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. That means that God didn’t wait for us to be obedient to send his son. He knew we could never live up to the perfection that He requires. Through out the Bible every time man has tried to work to please God it has been rejected by God. Beginning with Adam & Eve when they tried to cover their nakedness with fig leafs to God rejecting Cain’s offering because it was by his own effort. The Bible says Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation which at the first began to be spoken by the lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.
Since evangelicals believe we can’t make ourselves better from our own choice to accept Christ’s atonement as the only way we can progress, then I guess our responsibility to our Heavenly Father here on earth is what exactly? Just to say, “I’m saved through the blood of the lamb”?
The truth is, the reason why Ev’s don’t really have an answer about our purpose here is because they are relying solely on scripture that has been mingled with for centuries. Precious truth’s have been taken away from its’ pages.
Rick B pointed out (through scripture) that God would never allow His word to be lost. And I wholeheartedly agree, that is why He instructed those whom He instructed to keep records in other parts of the world that He would bring forth in these latter days: the Book of Mormon.
The bible is the word of God, in its’ entirety. But how can evangelicals claim we have the bible in its’ entirety when those of antiquity faced indisputable challenges in preserving His word (copying, translating, interpreting, changing) ?? Let me list a few extremely well known facts about the plight of early Christians.
1. No one could read, and those who were considered to be the local “scribes” could hardly write their own names, let alone consistently and accurately copy texts.
2. Early Christian leaders constantly chided each other for changing spiritual texts.
3. They didn’t live in the information age with Word processing and spell check—they actually had to painstakingly copy over and over and over again- surely mistakes were made to a very large scale.
The bible didn’t just appear one day, bound and ready to read. It has been misused, misinterpreted and largely watered-down. How can evangelicals deny this when their whole religion/dogma is based on the rejection of how scripture was being used in the years before the Reformation by the Catholic church? Centuries of misuse. Did ev’s restore the truth then?
Okay, So the truth was always there??? No one ever murdered because of heresy, or differences in opinion regarding what the bible taught?
Then why did we need the council of Nicea? Why did we need creeds if doctrine was already clear? If all these early Christians weren’t generally confused and teaching “false” doctrine, why would anyone need to get together to establish “orthodox”? And what authority did this council have? Did it come from God or from a clerical and political need to “clarify”? How are their reasons for convening different at ALL from what LDS claim to be the beginnings of our church? Well, direction from God is probably the BIG difference.
Who has proof that the Council of Nicea was directed by Christ?? It is HIS church after all–did they consult Him in forming their positions on what would be considered orthodox? They couldn’t consult the bible, remember, because that was what they needed to establish, what the bible actually taught. Unless they claim the same authority Joseph Smith claimed- which would render your arguments against Joseph Smith entirely hypocritical!
mikeb,
are you lds? your comment confused me if you aren’t because it is what LDS believe.
“The saved person’s works will be judged but not as a condition to receive eternal life but as to what kind of reward they will receive in Heaven. The lost soul will be judged for rejecting Gods plan of salvation through Jesus Christ.”
Interesting thing, that works. We are also taught in the bible that faith without works is dead–basically, Christ tries to teach us that unless we use our faith in Him by converting it to action, faith is meaningless. Turn the other cheek, love your enemies, etc…He wants us to learn and grow, and we cannot do that without His atonement- And we cannot be saved without grace. But to deny any component of ACTION (works) I believe is to deny the power of God and His plan for us. -His grace should be given with the “you can’t do anything” message? That isn’t Grace. Part of real grace is teaching. Knowledge is also a component of Grace. Christ’s grace encompasses forgiveness AND teaching! We cannot learn unless we submit our will, and guess what folks? Submitting our will translates into works. What kind of a teacher would Christ be if he just gave without requiring much of those He gave to? He has the power to just give it, sure, but does that mean that is His plan? And this is what evangelicals get wrong…they think that Christ is solely interested in giving us fish without teaching us how to fish.
True welfare and compassion is true teaching and love. You cannot truly teach and love without giving the gift of knowledge. Knowledge cannot be attained without walking in faith. You cannot walk in faith by simply stating you are saved because you believe Christ CAN save you. You have to follow in His footsteps and obey His commandments. Having faith in what He has taught- and putting one foot in front of the other. THAT’S GRACE! THAT’S MERCY!
Aaron,
To your characterization of our “merit-based” doctrine…
“Even infants who die go to the Celestial kingdom in Mormonism because they were proven sufficiently morally worthy in the pre-mortal existence (the first estate)”
…opposed to evangelicals who claim this infant is going to hell? Hmmm…I’m not sure I prefer your version either, Aaron.
Who knows why God’s plan for that child would be death in its’ infancy–worthiness is certainly speculative. Some have also speculated that perhaps God had a work for them to do in spirit paradise, or preaching in spirit prison. This has nothing to do with the subject of merit, however.
What we are taught about “merit” in the Book of Mormon regarding children who have not reached the age of accountability (age 8) is that they are alive in Christ. Period. Christ has claimed them.
Aaron, It would be much appreciated if evangelicals took of their preconceived goggles and listen to LDS when they explain the restored gospel. If you consistently compare our answers to what you already believe, you will miss the big picture we so desperately attempt to show you.
Wow a long discussion has taken place since I last read this blog.
MikeB, you are at odds with 2 other Evangelicals on this site about whether someone “who is genuinley saved can lose their salvation“. But you agree with one other. So you have only answered the question from your ideas. Both sides have shown why they believe what they do from the Bible – so who is correct? You or the 2 Evangelicals that disagree with you? And if the Bible is so clear cut, why are there 2 differing translations/doctrines coming from it being shown here?
For those who want to know if works are necessary for salvation then re-read these verses which I mentioned above-
1 Pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
So it seems from these 2 verses that baptism is necessary to be saved.
And as I said Aaron, those quotes were for those who were already believers reminding them that they need to do more than just state a belief in Jesus. They need to go on with that belief and do something about/with it – like get baptised and live the commandment and lifestyle that Jesus gave us.
Ralph, I apologize for any confusion. I do agree with the other EV’s
Some of my Mormon friends say that a person can lose their salvation by not keeping the commandments or covenants or leaving the LDS church (these are just a few examples). They basically believe that salvation could be in jeopardy as the results of ones actions. What I am saying and is based on what the Bible teaches is our salvation is secure because it is through Jesus and not us. EV use Ephesians 2:8-9 to show this but Mormons have a different twist on the verse by adding the words “after all we can do” if I am wrong please let me know.
What sets true Christianity apart from all other religions is Grace. All other world religions including Mormonism is based on a merit system of receiving Gods favor in the hope of receiving a reward whether it’s eternal life in heaven, being reincarnated to a better life or what ever the religion teaches. True Christianity teaches us that we are sinners by nature being born of Adam and that we are lost and separated from God because of this condition. The only way to restore ourselves to what God intended is through Jesus Christ. That doesn’t mean we’re all of a sudden perfect but it means that Jesus paid the sin debt when he died on the cross. When Peter says in 1st Peter “baptism doth also now save us” his remark is immediately clarified by the next statement. “Not the putting away of filth from the flesh” meaning it’s not the water that cleans us. He goes on to say “But the answer of a good conscience” meaning it’s based on our heart which is faith. Mark 16:16 isn’t saying baptism is a necessary qualifier for salvation it’s saying (paraphrasing) “Ok now that you believe why not be baptized as well.
A huge mistake people make is to pluck scripture out of the bible and use it to base their particlar theology. The Bible is not meant to be used that way.
Amanda
You asked: “our responsibility to our Heavenly Father here on earth is what exactly? Just to say, “I’m saved through the blood of the lamb”?”. Well, yes! Our purpose on life is not to add to or enhance the work of Christ, because we cannot. What does God want from us? What does He need from us? Ponder the words of an actual prophet.
“With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?” Mic 6:6-8
It is interesting that you dismiss the Bible so cavalierly and yet accept based on a “burning in the bosom” works penned by the hands of a notorious shyster, a man who claimed to be able to translate a language that doesn’t exist on tablets that no one has seen about a people that there is no trace of ever having lived. A man who “translated” Egyptian documents into some of the key doctrinal works of mormonism, only to have those works shown irrefutably to be mistranslated. A man who used his position as a “prophet” to satisfy his own lusts. You trust this over the Bible, the most heavily scrutinized book in history?
Mikeb,
“What sets true Christianity apart from all other religions is Grace. All other world religions including Mormonism is based on a merit system of receiving Gods favor in the hope of receiving a reward whether it’s eternal life in heaven, being reincarnated to a better life or what ever the religion teaches.”
That is a great point! All other world religions, including mormonism, are based on what you can do to earn God’s favor. Christianity is all about what God has done for His sheep. There is no earning of God’s grace, otherwise it would cease to be grace. “Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.” (Romans 4:4) Mormonism is all based on being more righteous than that guy over there, he gets an OK heaven but I get a great heaven and maybe become a god myself because of my worthiness, righteousness and good works. What Amanda and most mormons miss is that there is not hope if you stand before God clothed in your own righteousness, because your righteous and “worthiness” are nothing but filthy rags. You can give to the poor, go and learn the handshakes in the temple, tithe the full 10% gross, attend sacrament meeting faithfully and none of that reconciles you to God, none of that justifies you.
Thank you Arthur
The Bible is a book that can be trusted. It has stood up like a Rock for thousands of years. Unchanging even despite all attempts to disprove it. You can not say the same about the BoM. The BoM has been changed thousands of times. To say the people who wrote the Bible were uneducated is tremendously wrong. Moses wrote the first 5 books and we know he received the best education that was available. Look at Luke and Paul these men were highly educated. The scribes who copied the Bible did it at a painstaking pace and if they made a mistake they threw it out and started over. The words of the Bible were inspired by the Gods Holy Spirit. The BoM was translated by Joseph Smith looking into his hat at a seer stone. Which one do you want to put your trust in? The Bible says, Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but in the end thereof are the ways of death.
I look at the creeds that get blasted by the LDS, as proof that the true church did not fall into total apostasy as they say. The very fact that the early church took steps in insure that Bible doctrine was correctly interpreted is a huge assurance that what we have today is correct.
If the bible is wrong…well the punishment won’t be so bad if we follow Mormon theology. On the other hand, if Mormon theology is wrong then the consequences are going to be devastating for those who follow it. I can’t help thinking of the Mormon mother or father who passes on only to find after it’s too late, what they put the trust of their soul in and their family was wrong. It is very scary.
EV,
Nothing gets addressed! There will still be a judgement yet you all ignore it! The grace that Jesus gave us is that ALL will be resurrected the just and the unjust. The gift is RESURRECTION! Please address Romans 5. Adam SET UP THE LAW (part of the plan), Adam put us into sin by One so that One, Jesus could save us. More could be saved this way then us all trying to be perfect on our own. Another, if Baptism is not required WHY would Jesus do it, he of all people! How many times will Jesus ask us to follow him and the EV’s equate that to saying I believe in Christ and I’m done. That just doesn’t make any sense! You have this Bible and you pick and choose what to live! How many wives did it take to form the 12 tribes of Israel (4)? How many men (1)? If Plural Marriage is so horrific why would the chosen people (12 tribes of Israel) come from “Authur”- A MAN SATISFYING HIS LUSTS). Did God have it wrong then? Does God change? MikeB no Mormon is trying to disprove the Bible. Why can’t EV just believe the plain and simple truth it contains? Frustrated!
I think what everyone is overlooking is the very definition of saved. Everyone will be saved to one degree or another. When a Mormon says that it is only by faith & works, you need baptism, celestial marriage etc., they are putting forth those principles and ordinances required for exaltation. So when a Mormon says you cannot be saved without these things, they are not looking at it as being saved in any of the other kingdoms of Heavenly Father. We must all keep in mind, that we will attain one degree of glory or another. There are very few people who will not. The key is, how happy do you want to be in the life to come? Do you want to inherit ALL that the Father hath and receive the FULLNESS of His joy? Or will you be satisfied just being without your family and simply happy?
Let’s not use the word “saved” so loosely. We will all inherit one kingdom or another. We should refer to the degree of glory or ones happiness so we are being particularly clear about what we mean.
For example, you can be saved without works, without baptism, without temple marriage, without all of the things the Lord commands. However, you will never attain your highest potential without them. That is your choice. But you will still be saved.
The one thing I never could understand is this. If “Christians” (and I do generalize) believe that all you have to do is truly believe and you are saved, what is the problem with letting Mormons go the extra mile by truly believing AND doing good works? What is so wrong with that? How can that be contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ?
One hypothetical question I would like answered is after death when we are all in the spirit world, if the LDS church is correct then there will be a seperation between those in the spirit prison and those in paradise. If the Christians on this site make it to paradise and see the LDS there as well what would you think? Would you think “OK, I was wrong and the LDS are Christians too.” Or would you think “It looks like the LDS were correct. Maybe I had better try and use their teaching of a second chance after death and join up to be saved.”
Like I said – hypothetical question, but I am interested in your answers.
Chuck said
Because your adding to what the Bible says and your insulting Christ’s death on the Cross by saying it was not Good enough.
Read about Moses, God told Moses Smite the Rock ONCE and water will come out, Jesus was smote once, “Death on the Cross”. Then Moses was told to Speak to the Rock, that Rock is a symbol of Jesus, yet Moses struck it again. I hope you understand the symbol God was trying to set up, yet Moses screwed it up. Rick b
But how can doing “good works” be wrong or an insult to Christ’s death? Are we suppose to just believe?
Are you saying that when we see a neighbor in need, we should turn away so we do not insult Christ’s death? When we see someone in poverty, we should turn away and not perform good works because we would insult Christ’s death?
What about the commandments? We are taught in the bible to preach the gospel, to share the word of God, etc. Are these not considered, “Good works?”
We can see clearly in the scriptures where both arguments can be made; one for faith only, and one for faith and works. Both cannot be correct. So by this we can see fallacies in the Bible.
So I don’t really understand your argument as it would tell us we are not to do good works to help anyone or we are insulting the death of Christ. I believe Jesus Christ taught we should “do unto others”. He served people all the time and never took credit. I believe that is what is meant by good works. That we help and do good everywhere and give the praise to God, and not ourselves, and coupled with our faith, will bring us closer to salvation. Wouldn’t you agree?
Chuck, you are missing the very real difference between doing good works because we are saved and doing good works to be saved. No one is saved because he preaches the Gospel to someone else. No one is saved by feeding the poor and hungry. No one is saved but by the shed blood of Christ, and that is only effective for those who put their faith and hope in Christ. There is no fallacy, and there is no contradiction. The Bible is quite clear that the only way to be justified is by faith. No one says that doing good works insults the death of Christ, unless one believes that there good works save them in cooperation with the death of Christ. I tell people about Jesus not because that saves me, but because I am grateful for what He has done for me and want to tell others. I was saved from hell apart from any act of my own, in fact I was saved from hell in spite of my actions.
Woenigma, do you understand the difference between the Bible describing men having multiple wives and God commanding men to have multiple wives? The Bible describes lots of actions and events, but that doesn’t mean it commands them. Read the true history of Smith and his adulterous behavior, he cheated on his wife again and again and hid behind his false prophetic status to excuse it.
No one is ignoring the judgement, the difference is that mormons will stand before God and try to be justified by their own works. Christians will stand before God justified by Christ’s work.
On this question: “Another, if Baptism is not required WHY would Jesus do it, he of all people!” No one is saying baptism is not required, but we are saying no one is saved by it. Did the theif on the cross get baptized? Yet Christ said that he would be with Him that day in paradise, not some day after a mormon baptized him by proxy in a temple.
So you are saying that if I do “no good” in the world, or even if I do bad, so long as I have faith in Jesus Christ I will be saved?
I think you misunderstand the perspective of the Mormons. They subscribe to the Doctrine taught by both Paul and James. Paul was teaching those who thought that subscribing to the Law of Moses would save, when in fact that law was done away in Christ. James taught correctly also in recognizing that faith without obedience to the laws of God will not lead to eternal life. Mormons do not believe that it is the works that will save them. They know it is the work that Jesus Christ performed, his atoning sacrifice, that will save all mankind. But they also believe that you cannot gain eternal life without obedience (works) to the commandments of God. Do not confuse the two.
If it is not the case, how can someone have faith without works (obedience)? How can someone claim to have faith in Jesus Christ and murder? or steal? or bare false witness? or not help the needy? or look away when someone needs help? It cannot be done. I have never heard a Mormon claim that they can save themselves by their works. I have only heard that it is through faith and the works that are the fruit of that faith that they are saved?
One quick example. Take Noah. It was through his faith he built the ark(works) and was saved. Whether he believed in Jesus or not would not have saved him had he not been obedient (works) and built the ark. Wouldn’t you agree?
Aaron, just got around to reading the link you gave earlier and have a couple of questions about it. There are 3 “stages” of salvation, according to the site – Initial (which is the /gaining of faith/conversion), Progressive (occurring through the rest of the person’s life) and Final (judgment).
Under the heading Progressive Salvation it says “It involves a fight of faith, a striving for peace and holiness (Hebrews 12:14, 1 John 1:9), and a constant approach of the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:16).” The words I have bolded, to me mean some sort of work needs to be done, whether physical or spiritual, it is still work.
And again under the heading Final Salvation we read requirements for being saved are “wherein sheep are identified by their work of faith and labor of love…”
Then in a link to Final Judgment it has this scriptural reference – John 5:25-29 – “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”
So if works do not go hand in hand with faith for salvation (as the LDS teach), then why are there references to work in these descriptions from an Evangelical link? Especially in Final Judgment where it quotes from John 5:25-29 those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment (these are Jesus’ words not mine).
Chuck,
I was a mormon for five years, a faithful member, been through the temple, listened to the conferences, believed every word from the “prophets” mouth so I get mormon soteriology such as it is.
What I am saying is that your salvation is not dependent on your good works, and praise God for that because if it were you and I and everyone who posts here would be bound for hell. What James is saying is those that say they have faith but exhibit no works need to reexamine whether they truly have faith. People have faith in all sorts of stuff but only faith in Christ, and Him alone, as the source and author of salvation saves. Being saved is not the same thing as resurrection, being saved is being saved from hell.
Mormonism is an odd blend of universalism (all are saved, some just get a better heaven except murderers and apostate mormons) and pre-Christian Judaism (temporal worship and works justify individuals and forgive sin.) Mormons don’t teach that they are saved only by their works, but they do teach that you are saved (exalted) by the combination of Christ’s universal work and their own works/righteousness. Anytime you try to add to Christ’s work you stray from Biblical Christianity.
Chuck,
This is my fourth comment and it is late in the eastern time zone so I will be brief. “One quick example. Take Noah. It was through his faith he built the ark(works) and was saved. Whether he believed in Jesus or not would not have saved him had he not been obedient (works) and built the ark. Wouldn’t you agree?” No, because the ark saved Noah from a physical death but it is irrelevant for purposes of salvation. We all will die. See the above example of the thief on the cross who confessed Christ. What work did he do to be justified? Nothing, it was a simple declaration of His faith and he was saved.
‘For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”‘ (Romans 4:2-3) Abraham was not justified by his works, but by his belief, no different than any of us.
Then why are we commanded to “be ye therefore perfect, even as my father which is in heaven is perfect”? Why does the bible say that if we do not keep His commandments, we can not inherit the kingdom of God? It sounds like to me we have to “work” to be saved. It doesn’t sound like it’s by the merit of the work, but by the obedience to it.
Ralph, allow me to quote myself quoting myself (from an above comment I made):
As Mark Driscoll wrote, “Religion claims that sanctification justifies me. Gospel claims that justification enables sanctification.”
Chuck, “Then why are we commanded to “be ye therefore perfect, even as my father which is in heaven is perfect”?”
Are you perfect? Or even close to it? Is it possible for you to be at all? The Bible does command us to be perfect but it also demonstrates quite clearly that we are unable to do so. The Bible is replete with examples of the utter sinfulness of man and the great gulf between fallen man and a Holy God. It is Christ who was and is perfect, and through the imputation of His righteousness we become perfect. It is NOT because of our work or striving to become perfect, but in humble submission. The hardest part for people to accept Christ is the setting aside of our own pride in our own works, no one wants to admit they are helpless to achieve their own salvation.
Moderators, I wanted to post something lengthy on my blog regarding faith and works, can I link to it from here or is that a violation of your posting policy?
[Arthur, thanks for asking. It’s okay for you to link to your blog from here. Along with any link, please provide Mormon Coffee readers a summary of the main points of your blog post. Thank you.]
Arthur, “The Bible does command us to be perfect but it also demonstrates quite clearly that we are unable to do so.”
So you are saying that God is giving us a conflicting commandment? He is commanding us to do something that is impossible?
No I am not perfect. But yes, it is possible to become perfect. Allow me to explain. Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, my sins will be taken from me and paid for by Jesus Christ. With that in conjunction to my obedience to the commandments, I can become perfect.
You are right. The bible demonstrates that we cannot become perfect. But you left off the most important part… we cannot become perfect by ourselves. We need Jesus Christ. So through our faith in Him and His atonement, we can become sanctified; by obedience to the commandments, the laws of God, we can become perfected.
But I can promise you this, if you do not obey the laws of God, you do not stand a chance. For in the resurrection, you will be restored to the state you are in. Alma in speaking to his son Corianton shares this in the Book of Mormon, Alma 41:
12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?
13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.
This clearly indicates that when you are resurrected, you won’t instantly have the disposition to “do good works”… unless you were actively “doing good works” in this life.
So You have it half right, but I don’t see how you can get around the fact that faith, without the works (obedience to Gods law) will save you.
Chuck, look at it like this.
I swim out in a lake and start to drown, I clearly cannot save my self, I need a life guard, The Life Guard is Jesus. the only Work I can do is to yell, help, help, save me and try as I drown to splash an flop my arms to get the life guard to see me.
And then in many real life cases, the drowning person has dragged the life guard to his/her death by their panicing “Works”. so the life guard will let them go down until they can no longer fight back and simply be saved. Hope this helps. Rick b
Well, now we have a seperate issue because quoting from the Book of Mormon lacks an authority. Sure you can make a case for works based, or at least works supplemented salvation using mormon scripture. I can make a case for Allah and Islamic doctrines by quoting the Koran but that isn’t the question. The question is does the BIBLE demonstrate that our works do anything to achieve our salvation? Christian and with reservations mormons hold the Bible to be authoritative, so that is where I am focusing. I will come back and address your previous comments later today once I get home from this pesky job that interferes with my blogging time.
The Higher Righteousness
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven… For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. – Matthew 5:19a, 20
What a blow to the Jew! He knew the extremes that the professional Law-keepers resorted to! What was to become of them? This is the key point of the passage. You cannot break the commandments and get away with it. But you cannot keep them in your own strength either. The only way you can keep them is to come to Jesus Christ for salvation, power, and strength. The commandments are not a way of salvation but a means to show you the way to salvation – through the acceptance of the work of Jesus Christ.
Pharisaical Error
The scribes and Pharisees were not insincere: they tried to adhere to the keeping of the Law. Although misguided, they were zealous and sincere. Anyone that tries to reconcile himself to God by his works, his rules, or his legalism is pharisaical. Is there any other way to heaven other than by Jesus Christ? If there is, Jesus’ own prayers were not answered – in Gethsemane, Jesus pleaded with the Father three times for an alternative.
Which “Commandments”?
What are “these commandments” being referred to in Matthew 5:19? The ones we find in the remainder of Matthew 5 and continuing in Chapters 6 and 7. Jesus will emphasize “my words” (Cf. Mt 7:24-27). His call was to obedience (Jn 14:15, 21, 23; 1 Jn 5:3). Does the Christian need to “keep the Law”? The fact of the matter is that the Law is still a standard: it reveals to me that I cannot measure up to God’s standard. This drives me to the cross of Christ. The only way I can fulfill the Law is by accepting the only One who could fulfill it – Jesus Christ.
Jesus Fulfilled the Law
Jesus became our sacrifice and shed His own sinless blood on our behalf. He offered Himself once for all for the sins of all mankind (Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 26, 28, 10:10, 1 Peter 3:18). Everything was fulfilled just before Jesus’ death on the cross when He uttered His last words: “It is finished!” (John 19:30) tetelestai = “paid in full.” The second way He fulfilled the Law is that He taught and commanded what God’s will is under the New Covenant for those who would enter the Kingdom of God. He gave us a new set of rules. Paul called those rules Christ’s Law. Some of those were the same as God gave in the Old Testament Law. Many were changed, but most of Old Testament Law was not included at all in Christ’s Law. “For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one that believeth (Rom 10:4).” New Testament believers are not under the Law; Jesus abolished the Law through His sacrifice on the cross.
The Purpose of the Law
* “Through the Law we become conscious of sin.” (Rom 3:20)
* “The Law was added so that the trespass might increase.” (Rom 5:20)
* “It was added because of transgressions until the Seed [the Lord Jesus Christ] to whom the promise referred had come.” (Gal 3:19)
* “So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.” (Gal 3:24)
* “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the Law.” (Gal 3:25)
Paul was the writer who most discussed the question of the Old Testament Law and its applicability to the New Testament Christian. He was in a unique position to do so, having been a Pharisee who had been taught by Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), an esteemed teacher of the Law. The Law said, ”You shalt not kill [murder]” (Ex 20:13); but Jesus said, ”Don’t be angry with others.” Anger is like murder in the heart and it can lead to evil words and actual murder. And while actual adultery is far worse than inward lustful fantasies, the inner desires can quic
RickB, Interesting anecdote with the life guard. However, it doesn’t work that way, at least here in Australia.
As a life guard I was taught to never go for a rescue without a floatation device, whether it was a float (like they carried around in BayWatch), a surf board, the duck (I believe you call it a Zodiac) or a jetski. This is because of the risk of you drowning as well. If there are no flotation devices available then take a shirt or towel for the person to grab hold of. As for letting them go under until they cannot panic, its best to keep the person concious so that is not a good practice.
When it comes to the actual rescue, once you have reached the person they must take hold of the flotation device and then get aboard if its a board, duck or jetski, so there is some work they have to do for themselves. On the way in if you are towing them on a float, you ask them to help with the swimming by kicking their legs. This makes it easier for you to tow them without tiring too quickly, so again they have some work to do.
So a rescue is not a case of the person being rescued lying back doing nothing, they need to assist in their own rescue if they are able to.
Actually the whole lifeguard analogy doesn’t really work. Sinners outside of Christ are not like people who are drowning, splashing around. They are like people who have drowned and are dead, floating face down (Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins). Sinners are spiritually dead, with hearts of stone until regenerated by the Holy Spirit. That is kind of an intramural debate among Christians though, and not really pertinent. It isn’t really useful to use dueling analogies. The root issue here is the Biblical witness of the relationship between grace and works.
Aurthur “quoting from the Book of Mormon lacks an authority”. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. It has complete authority. It was translated by a Prophet of God.
To take your argument would be that same as those who apposed Moses (or any other Prophet). Just because the Pharaoh thought he lacked “authority” didn’t mean he wasn’t a prophet. So you may not realize it or accept it now, and it may not be in this life, but you will one day recognize the authority.
Rick, if there is no law how can there be sin?
here is the rest of my post, I ran out of space and it was my third post.
And while actual adultery is far worse than inward lustful fantasies, the inner desires can quickly lead to this forbidden sin (Ex 20:14). We must deal ruthlessly with ourselves and not encourage the imagination to ”feed on” these sins. The eyes and the hands (seeing and touching) must be kept under control.
Religious Practice
In Matthew Chapter 5, the King speaks of the righteousness His subjects must possess. It must be a righteousness to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, and that comes only through trust in Christ. Matthew Chapter 6 deals with the external part of religion: the righteousness that the subjects of the kingdom are to practice. The internal motive, of course, is the important thing in what you do for God. Chapter 7 deals with judging others, prayer, and the “Golden Rule.”
The Law of Christ
Jesus did not set aside the Law of Moses, He fulfilled it! He takes the Law of Moses, interprets it in the extreme, and in an absolute sense. And then He absolutely fulfills it! Remember that your salvation does not accrue because of your ability to fulfill Matthew 5, 6, and 7, but because Jesus did – and you can appropriate His achievement to your benefit. Do it now, in the privacy of your own will.
Chuck, Trying not to focus on side issues here, but just because someone claims to be a prophet doesn’t mean that they are. David Koresh though he was a prophet and some people believed him, but that doesn’t give him authority. In fact the parallels between Koresh and Joseph Smith are pretty striking but not really relevant here. What we have been talking about is the relationship between grace and works. In order to have a productive conversation, we have to rely on something that we both more or else consider authoritative, i.e. the Bible. Assuming that the BoM is “another testament”, it shouldn’t contradict the Bible so if we can stay with the Biblical record we will be more likely to have a rational conversation.
Funny you should mention David Koresh. Late last night I saw that the Biography channel was doing a feature on him. I had the same thoughts about the simialarities between Koresh and JS as I watched it. What was most interesting was the blind faith Koresh’s followers put in him. At the end, he even had his own form of polygamy. Study any of these “prophets” and their moves are predictable. There are a few of the folks who survived the siege but are still placing their trust in Koresh. Blind faith coupled with emotion blocks the true belivers from seeing all of the evidence that their prophet isn’t really a prophet. I commend the desire of our Ev. posters to want to use the Bible as a source of authority on the matters being discussed, but one of the traits of these sects is to either discount the Bible or to have their own private interpretation which merely supports their unorthodoxy. It’s a mind set that can’t be shattered.