“U.S. Muslims and Mormons share deepening ties” states a headline from an April 2, 2008 article in the L.A. Times. The article discusses a bond between Mormons and Muslims that springs from their corresponding history of alienation and shared values. The article focuses on the similarities between the two religious groups and the ways in which Mormons and Muslims support each other.
BYU history professor Arnold Green recounts the unwelcome comparison of Mormonism to Islam in the 19th century, but notes that things have changed over time:
“As the church grew into a global faith,” Green wrote in a 2001 essay, “its posture toward Islam became . . . more positive” until, today, “the two faiths have become associated in several ways, including Mormonism’s being called the Islam of America.”
A comment by a Mormon identified in the article as Steve Young caught my attention. He said,
“A Mormon living in an Islamic society would be very comfortable.”
This is a surprising statement. Last month CBNnews.com ran an article about Mohammed Hijazi and his family. Raised as a Muslim in Egypt, Mr. Hijazi converted to Christianity three years ago. Now he is running for his life. His father told a local newspaper,
“I am going to try to talk to my son and convince him to return to Islam. If he refuses, I am going to kill him with my own hands.”
Furthermore, according to CBN,
An Islamic council issued a Muslim edict called a “fatwa” back in 1978 that still stands today.
It condemns Mohammed and [his wife] Christina to death for becoming believers.
Where does that leave their little daughter Miriam?
“I don’t think that God is asking you to make your granddaughter an orphan by killing her dad,” said Mohammed [in a written response to his parents].
But under the same fatwa, Miriam will be killed anyway at the age of 10 if she does not choose Islam.
Mormons would be “very comfortable living in an Islamic society”? BYU professor Noel Reynolds apparently agrees as evidenced by this comment:
“…there are many important elements of Mormon thought in which we feel closer to the followers of Muhammad than to the contemporary Christian culture in which we have been located since our beginning” (Reynolds quoted by Spencer Palmer, Mormons and Muslims, 8).
To me this is quite puzzling. It’s hard to understand how members of a religion claiming to be focused first and foremost on Jesus Christ feel such a strong bond with members of a religion that denies a cardinal truth about Jesus: that He is the very Son of God.
I found another statement in the LA Times article just as puzzling as those above:
“When I go to a Mormon church I feel at ease,” said Haitham Bundakji, former chairman of the Islamic Society of Orange County. “When I heard the president [of LDS] speak a few years ago, if I’d closed my eyes I’d have thought he was an imam.”
It was likely unintentional, but behind the scenes the LA Times created a fitting appellation for this Mormon/Muslim phenomenon. It ‘s found in the article’s URL: Morlims.
Sharon,
I think there might be slight discepancy in what you stated or what you quoted. You wrote:
”When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians], invite them to three courses of action.
In the Koran and Islamic traditions, Jews and Christians are placed in a separate category called the people of the book (um al kitab). We have the “privilege” of being able to pay the jizya. Even though Jews and Christians are “guilty” of assigning partners to Allah, we are not polytheists.
In the most strict of Islamic societies, polytheists do not have the option of the jizya. They must become a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, or they must die. If they become a Jew or Christian they must then pay the special tax.
I think you added the word “Christians” in brackets after polytheists (I went to the link and it was not there in Sahih Muslim). So yeah, even though Christians are considered polytheists by Muslims they are not polytheists in a legal sense. If you are wondering where I am getting this from it is Surah 9
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
That was Yusef Ali’s interpretation of Surah 9:29. In verse 5 of that same chapter it is written:
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”
That is not just my interpretation but one that falls inline with many Muslim commentators. Basically, anyone other than a Muslim would not feel comfortable in an Islamic society.
this is really scary. I’m shocked that Mormons think they might be comfortable in Islamic society. I was talking to a Mormon friend the other day who was railing against the FLDS as being freaks. Islamic society is similar (polygamy, women forced to be covered from head to toe, etc).
I can’t imagine that my friend would be comfortable there!
David, thanks for the clarification. I have edited the post above. For those who missed it, here is the part I removed:
Please visit David’s web site at http://www.muhammadlied.com/ for more information on Islam.
I wasn’t aware of this distinction made, thanks for keeping us on our toes.
Whew, if traditional trinitarians are considered polytheists by Muslims, I wonder what the conservative imams consider Mormons to be? How much more are they polytheists, who often admit to me that there could be bllions of “Eternal Fathers” in existence over other worlds.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
The premise of this post displays a common problem with many posts on this site: intellectual incompetence.
The mistake is clear. Steve Young is most definitely comparing his values with MODERATE Muslim belief and practice- yet Sharon, you quote radical Muslim thought as if that was the intention of the sentiments expressed by those LDS you quoted. Your selections are clearly intended to paint the picture YOU want people to see, rather than the picture that is actually there.
MOREOVER, these LDS are speaking for themselves NOT for the church or any other member. LDS are just as capable of making dumb comments or outrageous comments- just like evangelicals commonly do- (i.e. this post) If the church had a statement on the matter, then we’d have a discussion
Come on- I’m surprised that anyone would fall for this ridiculous conclusion.
I do find it deplorable that evangelicals are so uncomfortable with any group of people that practice a religion that doesn’t recognize the divinity of Christ. They are still children of God, and Christ died for their sins too. So self-righteous!
Lillym,
Another surprisingly ignorant sentiment by posters is the comparison to FLDS????
I mean, a group of wicked men who were actually excommunicated for their practice of polygamy decide to make up their own religion and part ways with the restored gospel…and now somehow because they chose a name similar to the original that somehow they are even CLOSE to the original.
Seriously, this is so obnoxious, however convenient it is to your agenda in attempting to ostracize an ever growing legitimate Christian faith. Evangelicals continue to surprise me with their elitist and ignorant thinking.
I would love to meet for coffee, er, Postum sometime and take on this ignorant thought process…if only I lived closer.
Uh oh, David, looks like someone snatched up your domain name?
Not that I’m an expert on polygamy, but it’s practice continued in the LDS church long after it was outlawed or unrevealed-up to the 1920s I believe. It’s still practiced in a sense in that a man can be sealed to another woman if his first wife dies. Both women will serve as his goddess wives in the celestial kingdom. So as far as the FLDS and the Utah LDS goes, I guess it’s just a matter of degree when it comes to polygamy. I understand that 132 has never been removed from the official rule book.
Hello, everyone.
Amanda, food for thought, if you will.
1)Are you any better by pushing your agenda of making evangelicals look terrible with the stereotype of being elitist,ignorant thinkers? After all, we are doing what we know God spoke to us of in the Bible, just like LDS Missionaries (more or less). Perhaps we should call them self-righteous as well. That sound fair to you?
2) In relation to this post, I once saw a protest picture of an Islamic woman holding a sign that read, “Freedom of Speech is Western Terrorism.” How do you communicate rationally with someone who finds that me believing that Christ is the Only Begotten Son – and that the Muhammad did not receive revelations from the angel Gabriel to write the Qur’an – is a form of terrorism?
3) The Bible says that we become children of God by fully accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior, and our only means of obtaining salvation. To say that we are all literal children of God in order to encompass even the most hard-hearted sinners on the face of the earth is tenuous at best. Remember, not everyone thinks and feels the same way you do about this particular concept.
I await your reply. By the way, nice post, Sharon. Keep up the good work.
Amanda, obviously I did not compare FLDS to LDS. If you read my comment honestly you would see that. I quoted my MORMON FRIEND, who was bashing on the FLDS (like you do, btw) and wondered how she would feel comfortable in Islamic culture since it shares things with FLDS culture.
You are incredibly “intellectually dishonest”. You said:
“I mean, a group of wicked men who were actually excommunicated for their practice of polygamy …”
And Joseph Smith was a polygamist with adolescent wives. How dare you call the FLDS wicked, and turn around and call Smith a prophet of God?
I don’t think evangelicals are inordinately uncomfortable with people who do not recognize Jesus as God, as Amanda has stated. Christian missionaries have been choosing to live within these communities for the sake of the Gospel for centuries. However, I don’t think they are necessarily comfortable as Christians living in a society that denies them the liberty to freely worship and proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord and God. I think these mission fields are extremely difficult and very dangerous; I greatly admire Christian missionaries as they make such incredible sacrifices to bring the Gospel of Christ to hostile nations.
A thought on the origins of the FLDS. They were Mormons who practiced polygamy until they were finally ex-communicated 30 years after the initial revelation, but formed their own church and called it Fundamental LDS. The origins are explicitly Mormon, and while differences have obviously developed, the FLDS based their faith on the practices they had been using at the time they were separated from the main church. Evidently, they have been quite conservative in their applications through time. But again, the origins are very Mormon.
I also don’t think Amanda is winning anyone over with her approach at this point. I am sure she is frustrated, but lashing out as she has is not helping her cause.
And let me address for a second why I think she is frustrated. And I do this, Amanda, with an honest attempt. Here we are criticizing the faith she has put her all into. She loves her church and feels passionate about it. She really thinks it is the greatest faith out there, else why believe. She sees the information here and feels things are exaggerated beyond what is appropriate, distorted intentionally, or just made up. She sees it as an attack not just on her faith, but on who she is. And who can blame her?
But what she fails to realize is that we are not personally attacking her, and are talking about things through our eyes. It is obvious to us we view everything from a different perspective. But I am not sure she sees the distinction, and thinks (unknowingly?) that we have to view it from her side to get it. This only fuels her fire.
I ask you, then, Amanda, to try to understand it from our point of view. We are explaining what we see, not what you see. The Muslim/Mormon thing you can view however you wish, but to us, it makes some sense, and is a topic for discussion. You are probably right that the extremes are distant. But in the middle, I find the conclusion plausible, and interesting. Agree or not, but try to look through our eyes.
I don’t discuss this FLDS/LDS issue with the Mormons I know because it’s like striking a match. They always fall into using rather uncharitable language to bash the FLDS. I know it comes from not wanting to be seen as “nutty” as the polygamists, but really. It just seems hypocritical because they are always freaking out over Christians supposedly “persecuting” them.
I believe the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists, and Mormons are fearfully wrong in their re-interpretations of scripture – but if someone asks me if they are “Christians” – I can explain the differences in those false teachings without resorting to calling them names, i.e. “evil, wild-eyed lunatics”. (I’ve heard this description from Mormons about the FLDS)
Anyway back to the point of this post. I’m not sure how widespread this communion between Muslims and Mormons really is, since isn’t Glenn Beck a Mormon? (He hosts a show that routinely rails against radical Islam) – not to mention Mitt Romney, etc….
As a Mormon myself, I can assure you that Mormon’s and muslims do not feel a close affinity for each other.
As a missionary in Washington DC, I got not further with Muslims than I did with anyone else.
The fact that I as a member of the LDS Church am supposed to feel closer to Islam is news to me. This is just the LA Times looking for something to write about.
I remember the time I lived in Saudi Arabia. My father had a job there and for several months we lived in a western compound. We were allowed to practice our faith but it was against the law for us try to convert any of the citizens of the country. I even remember that one of my older brothers got baptized in the Arabic (Persian) Gulf (the Arabs make that distinction). We had to dodge the occasional oil globual. I was young enough to actually attend kindergarten with the arab children but my brothers had to attend a seperate school. My mother told me a story of how when she swatted a misquito on my fathers face, and everyone stared at her thinking that she just hit her husband.
Now, there were a lot of restrictions on our situation, but did we have a hard time? No. We lived within their law and practiced our faith. We received no excess scrutiny, in fact the religious police were not allowed in the foreigner compound. We enjoyed our small church community, and when I say small, I mean we all fit inside a small moble home living room.
So, did I feel comfortable in a muslim country? Yes. But no more than anyone else could as long as they live by the laws of the land.
I actually seek the difference between those who simply want to live their faith to accomplish the end goal of their religion and those who use their faith as a weapon to attack those not of that faith. There are muslims out there who do strive for a good peaceful life just as many christians. I can state that when it comes to living a good life, there are many relgions that teach basic principles that gear their lives for that course. Their faith no more threatens or deters me than a leaf falling from a tree.
I was having a discussion with an LDS missionary recently. He gave me the standard line from Moroni 10 to pray about the Book of Mormon. I gave him my standard responses (see the post on “prayer and abomination”). When I asked him if he would pray about the Qu’ran, Buddha and Hindu scriptures he told me that he had read them and that they all contained truth. I don’t recall him saying he prayed over them. I was surprised that he said this even though I didn’t believe him.
I went on to ask him how they could all contain the truth when they are recognizing different deities? Muslims worship Allah. Buddhists worship Buddha. Hindus worship millions of deities. This Mormon told me that they are all the same god and that they lead people to Jesus. I was so shocked to hear this I didn’t know whether to laugh or scream. I told him that I had never heard a Mormon tell me that and I questioned him more intensely about that not being Mormon doctrine and him giving me his own opinions. His view was that since we are all God’s children (preexisence) then we all have the same God no matter what religion one claims and that they all lead to Jesus.
I tried to reason with him that those other religions do not lead people to Jesus and do not have truth. The Bible is truth (John 17:17) and so is Jesus (John 14:6) – not these other false deities. This is one mixed up kid. Whatever I said this kid agreed with it. I said that I was a Christian and go to a Baptist church. He said he used to be a baptist too and on it went. When faced with the passage in Galatians 1:6-9, he said the Mormon gospel is not different and that it’s the same as the Christian gospel. I asked, “If it’s the same, then why do I need yours?”
It’s obvious some LDS missionaries will say whatever it takes to add another name to the membership roll. Before I even met him he called me on the phone and asked me, “Are you ready to get baptized?!” Funny…but sad.
Amanda, if you are going to accuse someone of intellectual incompetence then you better raise the quality of your posts. The mistake is clear? Where did Steve Young say anything about moderate Muslim beliefs and practice? He mentioned “Islamic society”. Ironically, “moderate” Islam (I am not sure this is an accurate way of describing things) does not form Islamic societies but rather (quasi) secular ones like Turkey.
Jacob5, the fact that foreigners like yourself were quarantined from most of Saudi Arabian society is why you could enjoy some freedoms. Things are not so nice for the average citizen in Saudi Arabia; conversion is illegal. The fact that Saudi has “religious police” should tell you something right there. Saudi Arabia is routinely singled out by human rights groups as being one of the worst rights violators on the planet. The government’s response to such accusations is that “we follow the laws of God rather than man”. Remember that Muslim Afghan who converted to Christianity? It was so called MODERATE Muslim clerics who wanted him killed.
This is where I actually get to say something good about Mormonism. It ain’t that bad. While Mormonism has had violence in its past there is nothing codified (unlike Islam) that calls for violence against unbelievers (“blood atonement” -might be the exception to this). The first 180 years of Mormonism have been far more peaceful than the first 180 years of Islam.
However, I think Islam and Mormonism resemble each other slightly in this regard – be the wrong kind of Muslim/Mormon in a Muslim/Mormon “society” and it will not go well for you. Granted things will be far worse on the Muslim side of the house, but being a non-LDS Mormon in Utah is courting persecution even if it is mild.
David,
He mentioned “Islamic society”. Ironically, “moderate” Islam (I am not sure this is an accurate way of describing things) does not form Islamic societies but rather (quasi) secular ones like Turkey.
And Steve Young is aware of this fact David? He is a famous LDS, so he gets quoted like somehow this is the feeling of the brethren and other LDS. My mother went to law school with the guy, said he was nice but never mentioned he was an expert on Islamic studies. He spoke for himself…and that is the problem with this post…attributing random comments by LDS to somehow mean something deeper in our doctrinal fiber. This is what I was angrily responding to (perhaps wrongfully) because this kind of ridiculous concluding is outright annoying.
I am sorry, I am only allowed 3 or 4 posts a day, and it is impossible to adequately address the responses I got. So let me sum up a general response to all of you, as best I can.
Regarding FLDS comments:
They are a group of people that stemmed off from LDS, so yes, they are related to our family tree. It is important to note that my personal feelings about FLDS were never stated. I happen to hurt very badly for those children and mothers who are victims of this cult religion, in TX. But the seeds of this religion ARE bad, because you can see the fruits of it. Physical, emotional, and sexual abuse of women and children. The whole infrastructure (whether originally intended or not) is built for the abuse of women and children. By their fruits ye shall know them, and Warren Jeffs is certainly not a prophet.
I’d like to clarify something. Well, a couple of things. First, the LA Times article quoted in this post does not identify “Steve Young” specifically as THE Steve Young, so I would be cautious about attributing the quote to the football player. There are surely many Mormons named Steve Young.
Secondly, it was not my intent to draw conclusions (or lead others to draw conclusions) about the official position of the LDS Church regarding Muslim/Mormon relations. I think a careful reading of the post will show that I did not do so. Readers might gain some insight on that topic by reading the entire linked LA Times article.
I often blog about things I just find interesting or curious; things that make me go “Huh?” They may be neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things, but sometimes they stimulate thought-provoking conversation.
Seeds of FLDS polygamy:
Where did the seeds of the FLDS come from? Consider this regarding the presidents of the Mormon church following Joseph Smith who had 33 wives. Brigham Young, 5o wives, 56 children; John Taylor 14 wives and an estimated 36 children; Wilford Woodruff, est. 10 wives, est 34 children; Lorenzo Snow, nine wives, 33 children; Joseph F. Smith, six wives, 43 children; Herbert Grant 3 wives and 12 children. In the famous three-year-long Reed Smoot hearings that commenced in 1904, the U.S. Senate-aware of disturbing evidence that Mormon Church leaders were, in fact, marrying additional wives, including some outside the territorial boundaries of the United States-challenged the right of Mormon Apostle Smoot to take elected office in the federal legislative body. Subsequent testimonial evidence at the hearings revealed that several high-ranking Mormon Church officials had continued to engage in polygamous relations including the fathering of offspring with their plural wives after anti-polygamy 1890 Manifesto had been issued and supposedly cementeted into place. The seeds that were sown are still bearing fruit in the FLDS of which, I’m sure these men would feel more at home today than any other sect of Mormonism.
I am more than willing to be corrected regarding the accuracy of this information if someone wants to research it.
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Amanda,
In your first post you seem to defend Steve Young’s comments and seem to indicate that they were taken out of context (moderate Islam verses some other kind), but now he is just another guy with his own (wrong) opinion? Are you willing to call his words wrong? What picture is actually there?
Honestly, if you are going to disregard Brigham Young’s views on the very nature of God, then I would think Steve Young’s views on Islam would not create such an uproar. Yes, he is just one Mormon with his opinion and where in the post did it say that his views were official church teaching?
Sharon, I read this blog now every day, and I truly respect what you have to say. I am not a member of the LDS faith, however, I cannot stand to see any comparison between the LDS faith or the FLDS faith to that of the Islamic. Regardless of the similarities, there are some things not worth saying. As such, if a member of the LDS faith were to read this, which there has been, it will confirm an idea that Christians seek to tear down their faith in every way possible. Its the subtle things which will draw those of the LDS faith to come to know truth. For example showing wear God says he views men by the heart, and not the outward appearance, whereas men view by the outward appearance–in comparison to what President Gordon B Hinkley stated and the other members of the Quorum of the Twelve.
and by ‘wear’ i mean ‘where’ hahaha it is still early in the morning for me haha
continued.
“And Joseph Smith was a polygamist with adolescent wives. How dare you call the FLDS wicked, and turn around and call Smith a prophet of God?”
LLyllim (sorry, your name is hard to remember) I didn’t call all FLDS wicked…I referred to men who continued to practice polygamy wicked, or wrong because I believe their reasons were less than holy.
Polygamy was called for a time in the early restored church. And not by every man, only few were called to practice. I have journal entries from ancestors who practiced polygamy. It was very difficult for them. These men would have to provide for large families, and the women were asked to share their husbands. Its a calling I could not bare. But the question is whether or not the calling was from God. And that is the difference between FLDS and LDS.
Abraham was a prophet/polygamist- Joseph Smith was a prophet, I came by that testimony just as surely as you came by your testimony of the Bible being the word of God.
So how dare I believe in prophets? Don’t you believe in a few? Even some who practiced polygamy?
Adolescent wives…that’s cute. Let’s look at history in its’ context shall we? My own grandmother was married at 16 to a 27 year old- and this was common in HER generation. Jump back a few more generations and this isn’t outrageous at all.
Michael, disregarding your patronizing tone, you mean well
I am supposed to see things through your eyes on the subject of how I see things? Really? This post is about what LDS think about muslims, how we see them- I would think my point of view would be valid, don’t you think? Besides, I’m the minority, you have plenty of folks on here who sympathize with this point of view, I offer a dissenting one, and now I’m in the wrong? Was I suppose to offer a sympathetic point of view to a lazy/bogus conclusion? Let me attempt that next time when the discussion is about how Joseph Smith was a pervert.
This is hardly a ministry, it’s gossip.
David,
I will simply say this…I am not sure how the comparison is relevant to this supposed ministry…? I guess this post lacks luster– not a compelling story. I’m not sure what is so offensive about a muslim stating this about LDS leadership. Is this muslim, who is quoted, a radical guy who blows up little children? There is a serious disconnect in the rationale of this post of the typical muslim person vs. the extreme. The extreme and typical are being lumped together as if there is no difference, rendering the point of this article extremely unclear and pointless.
“When I go to a Mormon church I feel at ease,” said Haitham Bundakji, former chairman of the Islamic Society of Orange County. “When I heard the president [of LDS] speak a few years ago, if I’d closed my eyes I’d have thought he was an imam.”
I don’t know too many imam’s…nor do I know what it is they preach or teach in their temples/sanctuaries… But perhaps this feeling he felt was the Holy Ghost. He felt comfortable because he thought he had found truth (there is truth in all religions- a concept many evangelicals are afraid to admit) as a muslim- and this same feeling of “truth” came over him hearing an apostle of the Lord speak.
Why else would someone follow a religion if they didn’t feel a connection to truth whilst attending? That is all that is going on here, he sensed leadership in both his imam, who could very well be a wonderful man, and he also sensed that same spiritual leadership hearing an apostle of the Lord. The Dalai Lama is not a Christian leader, yet he lives Christian principles and brings spiritual leadership to many. So we should find his life and leadership offensive because he has not gained a testimony of our Lord and Savior yet? Surely His gospel accounts for all of his children, not just evangelicals. Sometimes Christians are only capable of accepting their path to the Lord, and not the paths of others.
Amanda, well, considering the nature of this blog, and in the spirit of coming to understanding, yes, I do expect everyone to consider the issues from the other side.
And yes, I think you are in a difficult position here. We are critical of your faith. That said, we are to try to understand it from your point of view, too.
And yes, I do think your point of view valid. I believe I acknowledged that. You think it is a case of taking the worst and making generalizations, and taking small quotes and saying it is everyone. I understand why you are frustrated. But I am not sure you understand Sharon’s intent, which she has plainly laid out for all to see
Ultimately, the point is that rather than getting as angry and vitriolic as you had been, we are all better served when we all earnestly seek to grasp what the other says, and perhaps more importantly, why. And in answering the why, it is best to avoid the conspiracy theories of worst intentions.
This post was intended to bring out some interesting comments and instigate discussion, not to make conclusions that all Mormons are OK with Muslims.