[SWF]http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=948605920993957621&hl=en&fs=true,400,326[/SWF]
Richard Packham‘s video is also available on YouTube
Publicly exposing the Mormon temple ceremony takes away the superficial power of secretiveness and mystery and helps people face reality. The power of mystery is largely sapped with a simple YouTube video.
Obeying God’s commandments is a form of Christian worship. God’s word tells us:
“Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, ‘Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.'” (Ephesians 5:11-14)
Even the LDS Articles of Faith say, “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Since many Mormons use this verse to argue that the someone’s form and content of worship (especially their own) should never be criticized, I ask: Are Mormons going to criticize my form and content of worship when I obey God by exposing shameful things?
Trade in your green fig leaf apron for a cross. What God has revealed to the children of man, he has revealed to all the children of man. Find more private satisfaction in the public, personal word of God than in the shameful ceremonies of Joseph Smith.
Tips to Christians For Using (or Not Using) the LDS Temple Ceremony Content When Engaging Mormons
- Be led by the Spirit and be respectful and sensitive to people. The challenge here is immersing yourself in the Bible so that you adopt more biblical concepts of love and respect than worldly concepts. Being loving and sensitive will often require you to engage other issues of the heart and simply point people to the true nature of God and the gospel. But the Spirit may lead you to tear down false pretensions (cf. 2 Corinthians 10:4-5) and idolatry by exposing the ceremony. It is no more disrespectful to expose the shameful LDS temple ceremony than it is to expose pervasive mold to a prospective house buyer.
- Part of the whole question of whether to reveal the temple ceremony concerns strategic and loving engagement, but there is also a power struggle that is real. It cannot be ignored. People who feel like they have secrets often feel like they have a power over other people. Mormons will sometimes refer to the temple as the only appropriate place to discuss certain doctrines. Sometimes it helps to break this superficial facade of power and exclusivity by revealing your knowledge of the temple.
- Bringing up the ceremony will often end a conversation, so be wise about if and when you do it.
- That said, I suggest teaching Mormons who haven’t been through the ceremony, especially teenagers, the three secret hand clasps. Ask them if they think secret handshakes will help get them into Heavenly Father’s presence. Many will vehemently say, “No!” Express your agreement. Ask the same people, “If Satan told you to make a green fig leaf apron, what would you do?” The responses I hear are interesting. “I wouldn’t do it!” “I’d tell him to be quiet.” I like to advise people, “If Satan ever tells you to make a green fig leaf apron, rebuke him!” If they go through the temple ceremony, they will be reminded of these things. This will help them feel creeped out by the ceremony. They should feel that way, and you owe it to them in love to help them be sober about it.
- Break the news to them. The things you have just spoken of are actually in the LDS temple ceremony. If they don’t believe you, tell them to ask their parents. Or Google. The internet has more power to deliver knowledge than the Mormon “priesthood” ever will.
- Don’t over-sensationalize the role of Satan in the temple ceremony. I recommend a good article by Jerald and Sandra called, Obsession With Lucifer?.
- Expect opposition over this. Letting the cat out of the bag will drive some defenders of Mormonism in your community nuts. But keep a sober mind that this isn’t about them. It’s about the true seekers. The inherent shamefulness of the LDS temple ceremony really causes a crisis of conscience in people that causes them to leave the Mormon Church and take Christianity more seriously. Don’t want to see a close relationship severed? That’s OK. You can at least get the word out to people who haven’t been through the temple, who you can tolerate being upset at you. It’s worth it in the long run for their own sake.
- Remind your LDS friends that this isn’t a matter of trivial humor. It’s serious. It is a matter of informed consent. People have a right to know about this all before they join Mormonism.
- Ask, “Is the Book of Mormon is sacred?” “Of course.” “Is it public?” “Yes.” “So, if something is sacred, does it have to be secret and hidden from the public?” This helps when someone explains that simply because the ceremony is “sacred” it cannot be discussed publicly.
- Ask, “Why was the temple veil torn in two when Jesus was crucified?”
- Ask, “Can you think of any examples of people being married in the Old Testament temple?”
- Ask a Mormon if they are aware of the changes in the temple ceremony. Also ask, “Are the parts of the temple ceremony removed in 1990 still sacred?”
- Express your feelings about having your pastor mocked as a hireling of Satan in the pre-1990 LDS temple ceremony. Ask, “If Protestants had a secret ceremony where we called your bishops hirlings of Satan, what would you think if I said it was too ‘sacred’ to talk about?”
- Point them to the sufficiency of Christ. Share Hebrews 7 and tell them you want them to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, our great high priest. Eternal life is all about knowing Jesus, receiving Jesus, and believing Jesus as he freely offers us the forgiveness of sins and fellowship with God forever. Christians now have the indwelling of the Spirit, and our level of intimacy and fellowship with God is not dependent on whether we are in a certain building.
- Be like Jesus: “And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, ‘Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.'” Mark 13:1-2
I’ll close with a letter from an ex-Mormon Christian written to Bill Mckeever:
“Good afternoon Mr. McKeever. This email is an apology to the nasty and derogatory remarks I sent you in the past. I do not know if you remember our conversations but it was obvious that I was so deep into Mormonism, I did not realize how uneducated I sounded for defending a false faith. It is my prayer that every member of the LDS church come to the realization that Joseph Smith is one of the false prophets that the Bible warns us about. I came to my realization shortly after finding out the details of Temple rituals. I was officially removed from the membership records as of May 2005… Realizing that accepting Christ as my personal savior and putting all of my trust in him instead of Gordon B. Hinckley has made a magnanimous impact upon my life as a Christian. I want to personally thank you for distributing websites like these to bring LDS members out of the dark and into the light. Thank you for being a bold servant of Christ and May God Bless you and your co-workers always. Please feel free to post this message on your site as a hopeful inspiration to all LDS who wish to leave.”
I am surprised at this. Not at all offended, but surprised. A bold move, and one I think is useful in discussion of Mormonism.
I have heard the “secrecy” of the ceremonies dismissed at not secret because all can know them, but you’ve got to progress to them. The whole milk before meat line.
I look forward to the discussion here.
Wow, this is going to get a lot of Mormons pretty ticked. It really is a bold move. I expect a lot of heated conversations!
“Trade in your green fig leaf apron for a cross.”
This would make a great T-shirt slogan. I have found that most Mormons are turned off by the symbol of the cross. Much like a vampire’s response. ;>
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Mormons are turned off to the Cross because,
Regarding the “The Fluffy Bunny Nice Nice Club” post linked above (which I’m content to leave up), it seems a bit embarrassing for a Mormon to see their ceremony as comparable with sex?
This was downright evil, insinuating (even in jest) that my wife is a prostitute, etc. If this Mormon thinks that the exposure of the ceremony is “evil”, then shall they respond with evil?
Exposing the ceremony obviously strikes a really sensitive nerve. This only encourages me that the ceremony is the sort of embarrassing thing Mormonism doesn’t want outsiders to have common knowledge of, and that it is exactly the sort of shameful thing they should have common knowledge of.
Grace and peace to you, the person who slanders my wife and I, may God bless you with a broken heart and a passion for truth,
Aaron
Fluffy proves that once fact and reason leave the debate and your losing, then start the insults.
Did you never read the Bible? Jesus never once insulted anyone when on the Cross. O-yea, you guys dont trust the Bible, you teach it is flawed. Rick b
This is a very touchy subject indeed.
It is also very important that people/investigators learn this stuff BEFORE they become members however.
This is a question to the LDS – If you wanted to join a club, wouldn’t you want to know what that club stands for, does, etc?
Because when it comes down to the endowment ceremony, I have been told by many Ex-mormons that they were freaked out during the whole thing and that they wanted to just run, but because friends/spouse is there, and your not really allowed to say anything to your spouse besides whats directed during the ritual, you don’t necesarrily even know how your spouse feels about what you guys are going through.
They should re-name temple recommend cards to “Indoctrinated enough to where this wont seem toooo weird” cards.
I wonder when the LDS PR system will remove the signs/tokens from the endowment as well, because freemasonry is starting to known more and more. I didn’t even know about Freemasonry until I started looking into the LDS Church. Maybe this is too big a change though because you HAVE to give the Lord secret handshakes to get into heaven.
We need to pray for Fluffy. The mentality the person has is full of evil. As if Satan himself is starting to post.
Fluffy apologized: “It is my intent to repent of being a big fat jerk. I apologize to Aaron and to his wife for being dumb. I still think that he is a jerk for posting the movie and a jerk for trying to drive Mormons from their religion. But this was going too far. I am sorry.”
Where is the love from the LDS? How come all the LDS that claim we hate them and claim we do not understand them stand up for truth? This guy now posts this on his blog,
I might have poor spelling and grammar, but poor spelling will not keep me from heaven.
Then these LDS cannot give good honest answers, they can only call names and attack. Well just proves the love of God is not really in them. Rick b
How many of the 4,000 changes to the BoM were claimed to have been grammatical or spelling errors? Does this mean JS was dumber than a bag of hammers? If not, keep your logic consistent. If it’s good for Rick, it is good for JS. Please consider thinking before you lash out at people you do not agree with.
What does this have to do with the temple ceremonies? Instead of slamming people, deal with the issue brought to light in this awesome, revealing topic.
Hopefully we can get back to the original topic now…
As a mormon and soon to be non-mormon, the information provided in the video is spot on. One of the things I learned last year while searching the history of the church is there have been many changes to the temple cermony and also the masonic similarities. If I had known about the temple ceremony when I first went through I would have been very reluctant. The masonic similarities and the timing of them being introduced are to close together not to see them as conncected. Sorry, but God would not introduce masonic signs into the mormon ceremonies. My fellow mormons, look at the information in this blog with an open mind. Instead of defending everything, like I used to do, look deep and find the truth. By doing that you can discover eternity with God without having to try and live up to the perfection the church teached, which no one will attain in this life anyway. God bless.
> Sorry, but God would not introduce masonic signs
> into the mormon ceremonies.
Two logical fallacies in a single sentence. Circular reasoning and begging the question.
I have heard many apologetics to the whole Masonry connection from LDS who actually know it has practically been copied to create the endowment ceremony. I’m glad they were able to find the truth about its Masonic derivative. I do feel sad though that Mormons don’t even know about it. Some LDS say it is God giving new revelation of a practice done long ago, that is similar to what the Freemasons do. Just like two different vehicles can get you to the same place, if that makes sense.
My wife and I were hanging with her sister and her sisters husband lastnight. I noticed he was wearing a regular white undershirt, so I said “Hey man, wheres your G’s?” and he said “It’s practically the same except I dont have the little nipple things” – Right away his wife said “You’re not supposed to talk about those things!” – She was born and raised LDS all her life, and he was a convert a few years ago. I am quite certain neither knows what that square and compass really came from. After all, my wifes sister didn’t even know about Joseph Smiths other wives.
So what are the motives of the LDS church keeping these things secret? (granted, they are sacred to you, but anything intentionally held from the public is also considered secret).
Maybe 1) LDS leadership knows how weird it would be for one to find out about the signs, tokens, and especially penalties (prior to 1990) and there connections with freemasonry and would perhaps shake the faith of some members, causing questioning, then ultimately apostasy.
Or 2) By saying something is so righteous that it needs to be kept secret is a way to make an LDS person feel more like they are part of some exclusivity and because of its difference from traditional Christianity, further strengthens their testimony of a “restored” church.
Maybe someone else has ideas? To me personally, the in-depth rituals performed in the temple doesn’t help distance them from being called a cult, thats for sure.
I have always been respectful of the LDS people and their “sacred” temple worship. This article really opens my eyes as to the importance of revealing all heresies taught in the LDS Church. I am beginning to think that to reveal such things as “sacred” as this is showing true love. I also believe that Aaron is wise to warn us that we need to be sensitive and to follow the Spirit. It is true that the LDS will clam up and avoid such a discussion because they believe they can only discuss the temple ritual in the temple. They will cling to their inability to reason rationally by being stoic and believing they are withstanding the arrows of the devil. Remember, there is a lot of pride involved in getting up and bearing a testimony that you “know” the Church is true. With such a set-up, it takes a lot of courage to recant an LDS testimony. In this world, we live by faith and not perfect knowledge. I just want to end by praising the LORD for all the former LDS who have been courageous enough to recant their testimonies of the LDS Church and her teachings. Let us continue forth with humility, love, patience, and wisdom. Let us heed 2 Timothy 2:23-26: “Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” May grace and peace abound in these discussions.
I can only imagine the ridicule the true Saints suffered in Moses’ day for their ‘weird’ and ‘cultish’ acts in temple. I truly feel bad for Richard Packham.
As a faithful, active, and endowed LDS person, my only response to you all is from Ether 12:26:
iamse7en,
I don’t think there was a temple in Moses’ time. They had a little different structure called the tabernacle. Your comment is meant to equate Mormonism with Judism thus giving Mormonism standing. That’s like equating over 40 slow pitch softball with major league baseball and calling it the same thing. If you want to draw a comparison, draw it with secret societies like the Masons.
So these rituals were practiced by the apostles right until after their death? Then, by an evil sinister plot, they were lost along with plural marrage and progression of mortals to godhood. Add to it, of course, the teaching that there is a mother and father god. And if you practice plural marrarge you will get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom which is only open to the FLDS these days.
If someone is depending on a “testimony” for truth, they will believe anything…..thinking of course that God has spoken to them. When Mormons get their thinking processes unflipped, they start to figure the whole deal out. Now please, if this is what the first century Christian Church was all about, don’t you think there would be even a teenie weenie record of it someplace? If what is recorded in the BoM actually happened, don’t you think there would be some evidence of it? This, folks, is not faith.
iamse7en,
Are you speaking to the LDS who mock the believers when you said,
Can you please give chapter and verse, as to the temple in the day of Moses you speak of, Since it did not exist.
I’m back from vacation and have been reading a little here and a little there on the blog. I didn’t decide to comment until I saw this post.
My only reaction was sadness. You of all Christians probably know most about the Mormon church and as such, you would know how much members love the temple and wish to keep it sacred (it is a different kind of sacred than saying the BoM is sacred … the temple to us is holy.) Yet you still post something like this. In my eyes, you have stooped even lower than all your other attacks on the LDS church. It just makes me sad. I understand your reasoning behind it, but the fact remains the same … it makes me feel sad. I’ve heard of protesters wearing garments on the outside of their clothes while they walked around Temple Square during Coference … this post approaches that lack of respect.
Let me just add some balance to the conversation. I was raised in the Church … served a mission … married in the temple … four kids … in my mind, I’ve gone the typical Mormon route of life. The first time I entered the temple before I served a mission, it was different, but beautiful. The more I attended, the more I came to love the symbolism and the teachings therein. It has brought me real happiness in my life. I have found genuine joy performing ordinances for those who have died.
We believe there is a “veil” between this life and the afterlife. The veil is thin. I have heard stories from my Grandmother about the thiness of the veil and those who she has seen. I too have had similiar experiences. I know that there are those on the other side who appreciate the work being performed in the temples.
I may be ridiculed for what I have just written, but I will never deny it. Others may try to explain it away or discount it, but they have never seen and felt what I have seen and felt.
I know the authors and various commenters of the blog may never be convinced, but I offer my two cents to others …
… who are new to the blog or who want a member’s perspective on the temple subject.
Best Regards,
Apollo (Don Putnam … real name)
Apollo, the question is this:
Will you submit your own personal testimony and experiences under God’s personal testimony of scripture, or will you submit God’s personal testimony of scripture under your own personal testimony and experience?
Apollo,
Do you have any idea what you’re messin with? Seeing dead people through the veil? Did I get that right? You’ve got a “prophet” that was involved in folk magic, seer stones, the third eye, occult practices and now (please tell me this isn’t true) you’re seeing dead people? And you think it’s a “spiritual” experience? Who are you worshiping? Where (source) does this come from? The Bible forbids it. This is not from God? I’m shocked that anyone could be seduced into this.
Fluffy Bunny and other Mormons need to be reminded that when they pipe off at the mouth and start mocking other people (their brother – yes, according to the preexistence Aaron is Fluffy Bunny’s brother), then they are in violation according to the Book of Mormon where it says:
Alma 5:30-31: “And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a mock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecution? Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand he must repent or he cannot be saved!”
My brother got involved with Freemasonry some years ago. It shocked our whole family and I started doing research and making field trips. This went on for many months. As the “onion got peeled” away what was left showing was very evil and completely non-Christian. Him and I had several sit-downs and when I confronted him with some of the rituals he was going through in the York Rite (namely Royal Arch Degree – 7th) he was scared and embarrased to admit it. He knew it was outright paganism. He was brought up in the same Christian home that I was, but he traded it off so that he could have business connections with the big shots in town. Faced with Bible scripture and the evidence laid before him, he repented and left masonry by moving out of town. He’s still scared to talk about some of the things because of the blood oaths. I ask the questions and I just tell him to blink his eyes twice for “yes”…you get it.
When a Mason takes a look at this ceremony that the Mormons have taken as their own they are angered. No wonder the Masons in Nauvoo were furious with Joseph Smith. When Joseph gave the Masonic sign of distress at the window at Carthage Jail one can see why the Masons ignored him.
What goes on in the Mormon temples is nothing from God. These are borrowed ideas from other groups and religions mixed with Joseph’s imagination. I don’t read anywhere in the Old Testament about Moses being taught secret handshakes on Mount Sinai.
Don Putnam (Apollo):
I want to second what Falcon said to you. If what I’m gathering from your statement is true, then I urge and plead with you in the name of Jesus Christ of the New Testament to step back and take a long, hard look at what you are involved in. You need to test all those supposed wonderful experiences with what God has said about such things. Start with reading Deut 18:9-14. Read Mormon authority Richard Bushman’s book “Rough Stone Rolling” especially the first three chapters that detail Joseph Smith’s personal involvement with folk magic. Him translating the BOM by putting a magic rock in a hat and reading words in light from darkness is not from God. God does not reveal His Word to us through tools of the occult. These things are an abomination.
You mentioned symbolism. Do the pentagrams (known symbols of the occult and satanism) all over Mormon temples and buildings not bother you? Look at the stained glass windows on the Nauvoo temple. Look at the pentagram on the Eagle Gate at State Street & South Temple. There are pentagrams all over the outside of the Salt Lake Temple above the windows. Look at the pentagrams on the planters box in the north visitor’s center at Temple Square. Check out the pentagram both in a circle and out on the upper left corner of the entrance to the History & Art Museum across from Temple Square.
If you are seeing spirits in the temple, then these are demonic hosts who have taken up refuge in Mormon temples. Don’t scoff at this. Demonic activity is very real. They are not loved ones. Demons can imitate anything out there. They can mimic the appearance of dead family members and use their voices. These are tricks and lies straight from the pit of hell. I’ve heard all this before from others who have been in the temples. The veil is not thin. It is very thick. Nobody can pass from one side to the next. Please read Luke 16:26. There are no second chances once you’re dead (Hebrews 9:27). I’ll be praying for you.
One of the big dilemmas in my questioning the LDS church is the sweet concept that “truth only feels good”.
I think that is why it is so hard to look into the parts of the church that we all have questions about. We don’t want to feel bad. But in honesty, the truth sometimes doesn’t feel good…(we are at war in Iraq, does that feel good? gas prices are $4.40, does that feel good?)
The only way any mormon initially handles the weirdness of the temple ceremony is to look around the room and be validated that “Everyone else seems to be fine with this…so it must be okay?” I don’t know how else we did it.
Was it pretty inside? Yes. Very white and delightsome. I loved getting to wear a pretty dress and a pretty veil, too. I remember my Young Women’s teacher tell me that the most important part of it all is “getting your bows just right” and she would help me re-tie them until they were perfect. LOL!
I had a seriously hard time with my endowment because I didn’t think I would be able to memorize all of what was being taught. I was lightheaded with anxiety, and the matrons had to feed me saltine crackers as I sat on the locker room floor.
I went back for almost a decade with my husband. I thought I was doing something beautiful and significant. I never really understood the whole “symbolic” part but I would try to glean something out of each experience, I would imagine spirits talking to me and try to remember every name that I had gone through for. I always hoped to see a dead person, validation right?
I mainly was sad that I never got to sit next to my husband on our date night and didn’t understand the whole veil thing. Were we doing this in practice for us? Is that big veil what it looks like in mormon heaven? Endless lines waiting to go through the veil?
Real name……Andrew Watson
I am shocked now by the temple and all its ceremonies, mostly shocked at how deceived I was to believe the “specialness”. The whole temple *thing* is the opposite of the God I know now.
God isn’t restricted to building for his sacredness, We are to be the temples of God.
He doesn’t look on the outward appearance of a person – he looks on the heart (No bows, or silly hats!)
He doesn’t need special handshakes to test me…He knows who I am with my hands behind my back!
If Jesus fulfilled the law and ordinances, why would he make me promise to live up to ALL that is in the OT/NT/BOM/D&C ? (just the Jewish laws number 613 alone!) and then have Satan come out and declare that if I don’t live up to everything I just promised, I would be under his power…there is no way to win that one!
Things are so much clearer when you read the bible, the things Jesus says and take Him at HIS word instead of filtering it through mormon goggles. Take God at his word and just read the New Testament.
Worship of God isn’t what I did in the temple, I can’t even begin to call it that. It was a well tuned machine of doing strange ordinances for dead people. Why? Why do we have to do those ordinances? I know the mormon answer…we have to help these poor people that have died. But, if I really think about it…it is so much busy work for what?
Is God just a controlling task master???
The God I know now isn’t the God of that Mormon machine. He doesn’t need it.
I just pray that every person that is brave enough to be on this blog will know that it is okay to question. Jesus looooves questions. It is okay to wrestle these things out with God. He loves to rescue us from the darkness we are in and the confusion we are in. Take this stuff to Him and let Him reveal the truth. Jesus is grace and truth and wants nothing more than to share himself with you. Praying for you…
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There is a book titled “The Beatiful Side of Evil” that explains the “beauty” that can be exhibited within the occult. The beauty is there for one reason only and that is to deceive and seduce people. The mask that is worn covers the hideous nature of the practices and source. The occult, white magic, black magic, and spiritualism can make people feel good. It can even make them feel special and connected with a higher power. But the source is not God.
Mormon friends, can’t you add it all up? A “prophet” who claims a new gospel and who uses magic stones to see into the spiritual realm. The development of a doctrine of God that takes people away from the God of the Bible. Teaching people that they can be gods and have their own planetary kingdoms. Temple rituals that allow people to peek into the spirit world.
Folks you have the information. Do you have the courage to face it and do what’s necessary to free yourself?
Apollo – “The more I attended, the more I came to love the symbolism and the teachings therein. It has brought me real happiness in my life.”
Sounds a lot like what my mother in law said to my wife when she questioned the temple. “It may seem weird at first, but you just got to keep going and eventually it will feel normal.”
Do some Mormons just not understand the psychological effects that repeating the same thing over and over again will do? Of course it will start to become less weird and more natural, even beautiful if you throw your own emotions into it – it will become a part of you. Children who are learning to swim for the first time typically feel scared/uncomfortable, but after they keep going and going, they love to swim and glide under water and dive/jump in.
I think its important for everyone, not just Mormons, to recognize that bad things can produce BOTH good and bad feelings, and good things can produce BOTH bad and good feelings. Just as Junelle said, the truth won’t always make you feel good. – So, instead of just believing its the Holy Spirit, it needs to be tested.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ isn’t found in secret, in some ritualistic ceremony. He has given it to ALL men, directly from God to mankind. HOW DARE the LDS leadership take it upon themselves to judge our worthiness to take part in the salvation process through a “temple recommend interview.” If you dont pay a full tithe, you cannot get a temple recommend, and cannot enter the temple, which means you and your wife cannot be sealed, and exalted into the Celestial kingdom. All because of missing 10 bucks.. The LDS church has taken it upon itself to be the judge and its prophets (especially Spencer W. Kimball) has made it clear that you MUST obey the whole Law.
Romans 3:20
“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”
By their fruits ye shall know them, indeed.
Why, Aaron, are you posting the works of an avowed atheist and critic of Christianity in general? Richard Packham, who created this video, hosts a website dedicated to mocking and tearing down Mormonism, yes, but he also has a website dedicated to mocking and tearing sown all of Christianity. Google Richard Packham and you will see it. Some examples of his work, in addition to this temple video, include “GOD: AN ABUSIVE PARENT,” “How I Became an Atheist: My reasons for not accepting a belief in any kind of god,” and “Probabilities: Using the favorite Christian device of estimates of probabilities, the chances that the Bible is true are almost zero.” In short, I am wondering why you are not responding to Packham’s criticisms of religion, but you are still using his work so long as it criticizes Mormonism. Can you explain? Thanks.
Because what he said in the lecture was true. I quote from atheists, Mormons, agnostics too when they publish valuable resources. Doesn’t Mormonism also emphasize that truth should be received from wherever it comes? I obviously don’t ascribe to everything atheists, Mormons, and agnostics teach, but it makes sense to selectively showcase good and true things they have to say.
Jeffrey R. Holland quoted the words of N.T. Wright in the most recent General Conference to suit his purposes (misrepresenting Wright’s larger position). Are you going to write a letter to Holland reproving him of his having quoted someone who believes Mormonism is fundamentally riddled with heresy?
Quickmere,
Kind of interesting response. When we point out Joseph Smith’s deviant behavior and practices, Mormons line up in droves pointing out the supposed failings of Biblical prophets in an attempt to legitamize Smith. So is there anything in this video of Packham that isn’t true? Your attacking him on the basis that he is an atheist. I’m going to do the Mormon “So What!” response that we hear so often in defending Smith. Can’t an atheist have “some truth” to borrow another popular Morman ditty. If something is true, it’s true regardless of the source. I didn’t hear Packham go off on his opinion of anything. He provided information…period. So your attacking him as a source doesn’t change the truth of what he pressented.
Jeffery,
The process of breaking down people’s inhibitions is known as desensitization. It’s a well known technique used by all sorts of groups in all sorts of settings…..a favorite technique of the cults. Charlie Manson used it to break down his women followers finally getting the whole bunch to committ murder. Street pimps use the process to condition girls to be hookers. It’s the old frog in the kettle routine. You know, you put a frog in hot water and it’ll jump out. You put it in lukewarm water and gradually increase the temperature it will cook and not even know it.
I appreciate your quoting from many different sources. However, my main thrust deals with why -you- refer to Packham without responding to any of his other criticisms of Christianity. It would seem one who is concerned with the welfare of the souls of men would want to counter the criticisms posed by Packham which cause some Christians to lose their way, or lose faith in God completely as he has. So while you may feel you are trying to bring people to Christ through the front door by criticizing Mormonism, the very sources you use also are helping people find their way out the back door at the same time.
Why didn’t Holland address at General Conference all of N.T. Wright’s theological material which would contradict Mormonism? Grow up.
This is starting to sound like the “how many different ways can we distract people from the content of the original post” game. This is a blog post about the LDS temple ceremony, not about all things apologetic regarding Christianity. If you want to peruse a generic site I founded, check out Theopedia.com.
As far as “growing up” is concerned, it appears my questions have annoyed or offended you in some way. That isn’t my intent. I am quite serious about the amount of efforts spent on attacking the Mormon church while people like Packham are spreading anti-Christianity on the internet. Again, it seems you are content to use an avowed atheist to prove a point while ignoring his other work completely, even though it attacks the faith of Christianity, including, of course, your own. I’m not aware of General Conference addresses that use the arguments of atheists to prove a point.
Quickmere, let’s get this straight. You’re on a blog specifically that engages Mormonism, and you assume from it that it contains the entirety of everything I ever do regarding apologetics? Also, are you saying that, in order to draw from another’s resource who is otherwise critical of Christianity, his other material must simultaneously be dealt with, regardless of its irrelevance to the particular blog post?
Again, it sounds like you’re trying to distract people from the substance of the blog post.
If you think Christendom doesn’t already address general and specific criticism of those who oppose Christianity, then you need to visit carm.org, tektonics.org, bible.org, etc. Some people are called by the Holy Spirit to focus on certain groups of people and certain areas of apologetics.
PS It should be noted that when it comes to the gods of Mormonism, I myself am also an atheist. I simply don’t believe the gods of Mormonism exist.
Falcon,
I never knew about the frog dealy. That is interesting. It runs parellel with many things in life, including sin. Sin has a very subtle but slippery slope. One small deicision to commit a sin, can lead to more and more until you are buried and you never realized how deep you were. I appreciate you bringing up the psychological name for what I was trying to get across. I feel I’m rather aware and sensitive to the psychology of humans, but have a hard time coming up with the terms.
I know the temple endowment ceremony is sacred to the LDS, but I don’t know why they feel it is necessary to keep it secret. Maybe if it was more known, those that end up going through the temple will already know what’s coming instead of freaking them out. Granted, more of the world will know about the masonic involvement, but has that effected any LDS person here who has an unbreakable testimony? Is Ralph not okay with it?
Would it make it feel less special to the LDS who go through it? I can see where a person would feel like they are more special because of it.
The changes made in the temple are very interesting to note. Instead of coming off sexist as it did when saying a woman had to heed their husband alone, a change was made to make it seem more equal. Penalties were removed – which is huge, the question is why? – maybe because it was a big turn off with the graphic nature on how one is supposed to be killed? The 5 points of fellowship, copied exactly from Masonry as well, was removed, why? – I can see how embracing someone closely like that may be a turn off to women. If these things were necesarry before, why aren’t they now?
If these changes were made because of pressure from humankind, then I would say thats a good indicator that this religion is completely man made. Joseph Smith copying masonic rituals for something that is supposed to be from God is evidence enough for me, but I guess not for some LDS.
To quickmere and/or other LDS posters: it’s been said a few times that “the temple rituals are sacred, therefore kept secret…” or something along those lines. Do yourselves a favor and show those new to the debate,like myself, where this connection exists from the Bible. I know that the early church practiced the same kind of secrecy that we see today in China, and other areas where harsh persecution is enforced. Because of such, the catacombs and the Chinese house churches are a necessity. WHERE and WHEN they meet is secret: WHAT THEY DO IN THERE WAS NOT, AND IS NOT. Hardly: I think the chinese believer would be only TOO happy to tell ANYONE, what is going on in there, but not when and where. I’m missing the sacred=secret line of thought, and don’t see a whiff of that in the NT (other than what I described above). Thanks…….GERMIT
Quickmere, another aspect in using Packham in this sense, to me, is that he is an ex-Mormon, one who actually participated in these events. As such, he is an “expert” on the specific topic, and a video was created and published showing the appropriate material. Are we to discount the material now because we don’t like all of what he says?
As to what else he says, we can discuss that elsewhere, but what he says about Mormonism is indeed applicable here.
“Anti-Mormon”? So if you’re not “proMormon” you’re anti-Mormon? In that sense then, I guess I’m anti-Mormon or anti-Mormonism. I’m also “anti-abortion” because I’m not “proabortion”. I’m also “anti-communist” because I’m not “procommunist”.
So why am I anti-Mormon? Because I don’t want people to go into eternity having lost their souls. I could care less if people want to dress up in costumes and do rituals. However the whole bag of Mormonism claims to be Christianity and it’s clearly not, so people need to be warned about it. We are commanded to expose false prophets their doctrines and practices.
Mormons have rejected the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for another gospel. The temple rituals expose the occult nature of the religion. Joseph Smith was known to practice magic arts to peek into the spirit world. The temple rituals for the dead, with the outcome of contacting spirits (of the dead) doesn’t come from the God of the Bible. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Mormons are conditioned not to question so they are easily led.
The Mormon n-word (otherwise known as the a-word) is filtered on Mormon Coffee now. Sorry for any confusion.
WOW, Jeffery R. Holland’s comments are dangerous. It seems that LDS leaders are very bold in discounting God’s word as found in the Bible and, for that matter, even their sacred canon. This preps the followers for discarding the Bible if it does not agree with their leaders. This is a backwards approach. Their leaders should be tested against the Bible.
This temple ritual is set up within an elitist system: only those “worthy” enough (whose worthiness comes from their own works and not the grace of God through Jesus Christ) can enter the temple and “learn” everything one needs to know to enter into God’s presence. This is not about becoming gods, but entering God’s presence in a relationship that was reconciled by and through Jesus Christ. Such knowledge is found in the Bible. Temple rituals as prescribed by the LDS Church is part of another gospel. The true gospel is simple: “that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures (a case for why the scriptures are important and trump the claim by Mr. Holland), that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures (again the scriptures are used as the measuring stick; again trumping Mr. Holland’s claim), and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve” (1 Cor. 15:3b-5). This is the good news of the gospel. There is not even a hint or inference to “secret” ordinances for the elite. How sad it is that the blind have become comfortable with their blindness; just as it is sad when a child who is the victim of a lifetime of sexual abuse comes to view that life as normal and expected. Becoming comfortable with temple ritual does not mean it is true worship.
Just want to make it clear, falcon himself was not being inappropriate.
Secrecy, Elitism, and an appeal to an authority other than the bible that is ABOVE the bible (probably laid out in reverse order: with the new authority coming first) This is a prescription for a false gospel, and are the hallmarks of error near and far. In that context, the presence of occult ritual and symbolism is not (to me ) at all surprising. I’d be surprised if it were NOT there. And that is why I’m an aunt-eye. GOD help us all. GERMIT
Mormons, you sometimes use Matthew 7:6 to support keeping your ceremony secret. I can see using Matthew 7:6 to not have a conversation with someone who is stubborn and obstinate and blasphemous toward God. But to keep a ceremony entirely secret except to those who are a part of the elite of your particular church? That’s not scriptural in the least bit. It’s saying that the whole world, with the exception of active, faithful, temple-going Mormons, is “swine”. It’s saying that everyone who doesn’t join your church and get a temple recommend is “swine”.
RE: This linked blog makes a big deal out of respect for the traditions of others. Yet the LDS Church fails the test.
The blog asks and given the ordinances for the dead, which is the ultimate disrespect I give the only reasonable answer for the LDS Church:
1. Do they respect those things which others hold dear? NO Are they reverent around things which they may not personally believe, but which others find to be the pinnacle of holiness? NO Are they tolerant of other religious views? NO Do they honor the wishes of others to keep sacred those things others hold sacred? NO What is their esteem for the beliefs of others? NONE Do they conduct themselves with concern for that which others hold in the highest regard? NO
They wait until death to disregard a persons faith and offer great disrespect to the traditions and sacred beliefs of the person.
I called the LDS Church to request that I never be baptised by the Mormons after death I was told NO. Talk about disrespect!!
Mormonism requires it’s members to not question. So for those who have this gnawing uneasiness and perhaps revulsion for the temple ceremonies, they stuff their concerns. They go along because; don’t they have a “testimony” that the church is true? It’s God’s church. To not go along, to question, would be to question God. To be a good Mormon all questions must be laid aside because blind obedience is the number one requirement of a good church member. Mormons are taught that the questions they have are all from Satan and to pursue answers is to put your very salvation at risk. What a racket! The church makes more and more demands on members’ time, energy and financial resourses. And yet a member can never be good enough. The brass ring is always just out of reach.
If you’re tired of the religious grind that brings no peace, and ultimately no salvation try Jesus.
Amen Falcon! Being taught not to question but to be led by a prophet “that will never lead you astray” comforts many in the church. Members are led by blind obedience without actually looking outside their circle of influence for more information. I agree with you. As one questions the teachings of the church, it’s history, doctrine, Joseph Smith, etc. you can be made to feel like satan has got a hold of you. Also, when you start questioning, the meetings with the bishop/stake presidency start. This is where members do not want to go so they stay quiet. I say question away.
John Taylor: MORMON PROPHET “I think a full, free talk is frequently of great use; we want nothing secret nor underhanded, and I for one want no association with things that cannot be talked about and will not bear investigation.” Journal of Discourses, Volume 20, Page 264.
God bless!