[SWF]http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=948605920993957621&hl=en&fs=true,400,326[/SWF]
Richard Packham‘s video is also available on YouTube
Publicly exposing the Mormon temple ceremony takes away the superficial power of secretiveness and mystery and helps people face reality. The power of mystery is largely sapped with a simple YouTube video.
Obeying God’s commandments is a form of Christian worship. God’s word tells us:
“Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, ‘Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.'” (Ephesians 5:11-14)
Even the LDS Articles of Faith say, “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Since many Mormons use this verse to argue that the someone’s form and content of worship (especially their own) should never be criticized, I ask: Are Mormons going to criticize my form and content of worship when I obey God by exposing shameful things?
Trade in your green fig leaf apron for a cross. What God has revealed to the children of man, he has revealed to all the children of man. Find more private satisfaction in the public, personal word of God than in the shameful ceremonies of Joseph Smith.
Tips to Christians For Using (or Not Using) the LDS Temple Ceremony Content When Engaging Mormons
- Be led by the Spirit and be respectful and sensitive to people. The challenge here is immersing yourself in the Bible so that you adopt more biblical concepts of love and respect than worldly concepts. Being loving and sensitive will often require you to engage other issues of the heart and simply point people to the true nature of God and the gospel. But the Spirit may lead you to tear down false pretensions (cf. 2 Corinthians 10:4-5) and idolatry by exposing the ceremony. It is no more disrespectful to expose the shameful LDS temple ceremony than it is to expose pervasive mold to a prospective house buyer.
- Part of the whole question of whether to reveal the temple ceremony concerns strategic and loving engagement, but there is also a power struggle that is real. It cannot be ignored. People who feel like they have secrets often feel like they have a power over other people. Mormons will sometimes refer to the temple as the only appropriate place to discuss certain doctrines. Sometimes it helps to break this superficial facade of power and exclusivity by revealing your knowledge of the temple.
- Bringing up the ceremony will often end a conversation, so be wise about if and when you do it.
- That said, I suggest teaching Mormons who haven’t been through the ceremony, especially teenagers, the three secret hand clasps. Ask them if they think secret handshakes will help get them into Heavenly Father’s presence. Many will vehemently say, “No!” Express your agreement. Ask the same people, “If Satan told you to make a green fig leaf apron, what would you do?” The responses I hear are interesting. “I wouldn’t do it!” “I’d tell him to be quiet.” I like to advise people, “If Satan ever tells you to make a green fig leaf apron, rebuke him!” If they go through the temple ceremony, they will be reminded of these things. This will help them feel creeped out by the ceremony. They should feel that way, and you owe it to them in love to help them be sober about it.
- Break the news to them. The things you have just spoken of are actually in the LDS temple ceremony. If they don’t believe you, tell them to ask their parents. Or Google. The internet has more power to deliver knowledge than the Mormon “priesthood” ever will.
- Don’t over-sensationalize the role of Satan in the temple ceremony. I recommend a good article by Jerald and Sandra called, Obsession With Lucifer?.
- Expect opposition over this. Letting the cat out of the bag will drive some defenders of Mormonism in your community nuts. But keep a sober mind that this isn’t about them. It’s about the true seekers. The inherent shamefulness of the LDS temple ceremony really causes a crisis of conscience in people that causes them to leave the Mormon Church and take Christianity more seriously. Don’t want to see a close relationship severed? That’s OK. You can at least get the word out to people who haven’t been through the temple, who you can tolerate being upset at you. It’s worth it in the long run for their own sake.
- Remind your LDS friends that this isn’t a matter of trivial humor. It’s serious. It is a matter of informed consent. People have a right to know about this all before they join Mormonism.
- Ask, “Is the Book of Mormon is sacred?” “Of course.” “Is it public?” “Yes.” “So, if something is sacred, does it have to be secret and hidden from the public?” This helps when someone explains that simply because the ceremony is “sacred” it cannot be discussed publicly.
- Ask, “Why was the temple veil torn in two when Jesus was crucified?”
- Ask, “Can you think of any examples of people being married in the Old Testament temple?”
- Ask a Mormon if they are aware of the changes in the temple ceremony. Also ask, “Are the parts of the temple ceremony removed in 1990 still sacred?”
- Express your feelings about having your pastor mocked as a hireling of Satan in the pre-1990 LDS temple ceremony. Ask, “If Protestants had a secret ceremony where we called your bishops hirlings of Satan, what would you think if I said it was too ‘sacred’ to talk about?”
- Point them to the sufficiency of Christ. Share Hebrews 7 and tell them you want them to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, our great high priest. Eternal life is all about knowing Jesus, receiving Jesus, and believing Jesus as he freely offers us the forgiveness of sins and fellowship with God forever. Christians now have the indwelling of the Spirit, and our level of intimacy and fellowship with God is not dependent on whether we are in a certain building.
- Be like Jesus: “And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, ‘Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.'” Mark 13:1-2
I’ll close with a letter from an ex-Mormon Christian written to Bill Mckeever:
“Good afternoon Mr. McKeever. This email is an apology to the nasty and derogatory remarks I sent you in the past. I do not know if you remember our conversations but it was obvious that I was so deep into Mormonism, I did not realize how uneducated I sounded for defending a false faith. It is my prayer that every member of the LDS church come to the realization that Joseph Smith is one of the false prophets that the Bible warns us about. I came to my realization shortly after finding out the details of Temple rituals. I was officially removed from the membership records as of May 2005… Realizing that accepting Christ as my personal savior and putting all of my trust in him instead of Gordon B. Hinckley has made a magnanimous impact upon my life as a Christian. I want to personally thank you for distributing websites like these to bring LDS members out of the dark and into the light. Thank you for being a bold servant of Christ and May God Bless you and your co-workers always. Please feel free to post this message on your site as a hopeful inspiration to all LDS who wish to leave.”
A bit off topic, but I can’t help but consider something Truthseeker said. He says: “Being taught not to question but to be led by a prophet “that will never lead you astray” comforts many in the church. Members are led by blind obedience without actually looking outside their circle of influence for more information.”
I have heard many Mormons say they have done their own investigation and find out their faith is indeed true. It makes me wonder what their own investigation entails, and how they come to this conclusion.
I also wonder how many have investigaed the rituals shown above…
Anyone else notice that there are not many Mormons posting on this topic?
> Mormonism requires it’s members to not
> question.
No.
> To be a good Mormon all questions must be laid
> aside because blind obedience is the number one
> requirement of a good church member.
No.
> Mormons are taught that the questions they have
> are all from Satan
No.
> and to pursue answers is to put your very
> salvation at risk.
No.
> What a racket! The church makes more and more
> demands on members’ time, energy and financial
> resourses. And yet a member can never be good
> enough. The brass ring is always just out of
> reach.
I have heard the same parroted by other Christians, but I don’t see it in my church. Then again, with all the mistakes you made above, I can understand how your thinking is flawed.
> If you’re tired of the religious grind that
> brings no peace, and ultimately no salvation
> try Jesus.
We have no grind, we have peace, and we have Jesus.
GS, I am not surprised at your response denying the perception the church quelches curiousity. I’d like to bring up a question, though: where does this perception come from? Is it from Satan, us evil people with an axe to grind? Or Ex-Mormons who had a bad experience and are now bitter about it?
Or is it actually from Mormons themselves? I understand you cannot paint the entire picture with a single brush, but are you familiar with the movie Army of God, an LDS (probably not “officially lDS, but you know what I mean) film from some years back? If so, do you remember the scene of the curious missionary getting reemed by the “hero” for reading literature that’s against the faith? That scene stands out in my mind.
Also, you cannot discuss this without discussing the idea of faith promotion.
So, why is it that there is a perception that Mormons do not encourage seeking about the faith?
Is it because there is truth to it? I submit yes.
Oh, and is there truth to Masonic influence on the ritual shown above?
GS,
I’m pleased to read that you can say something in your posts besides “So What!”. Now that you can say “No”, let’s work on getting you to say “Yes” in agreement with your Church authorities that you have to submit to:
“It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a DIFFERENT Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons. Christ followed by the Mormons is NOT the Christ followed by Christianity.” (Bernard Brockbank, Quorum of the Seventy, Ensign, May 1977, page 26) [Emphasis mine]
“While respecting the divergent views of other people of faith, Church leaders want to be clear about the beliefs that help define Latter-day Saints. Among the most important DIFFERENCES with other Christian churches are those concerning the nature of God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.” (“Core Beliefs: Why and How Are Mormons Different”, Newsroom, LDS.org) [Emphasis mine]
This is just a short list. The Bible makes it clear that there is another Jesus (2 Cor 11:4) and that Jesus is false. There is only one right one – not two. There are a lot of Jesus’ running around and have been since Christ came. It doesn’t make them right. Many religions of the world have their form of what Jesus is. The Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. I won’t hijack this thread to list them all out. The moderators can start a new thread if they wish at their discretion.
Robert Millet, not one of the General Authorities but yet a spin doctor for the Mormon Church, wrote a book called “A Differen Jesus”. In that book he tried to outline similarities, but had to conceed the differences between the Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus. Pick up a copy at Deseret Books and see for yourself. Then do a thorough study in the New Testament outside of Mormon guidance and see what you come up with.
You have no grind? Joseph Smith did in JS History 1:19 where he said “for they [Christian churches] were all wrong”. Mormons started this debate. Christians will defend God’s Word.
> let’s work on getting you to say “Yes” in
> agreement with your Church authorities that you
> have to submit to
I have to submit to no one, neither do I have to agree with them when they are offering up opinion.
> Christ followed by the Mormons is NOT the Christ
> followed by Christianity
If he was talking about Traditional Orthodox Christianity (TOC), then I would agree. Otherwise, not so much.
> Among the most important DIFFERENCES with other
> Christian churches are those concerning the
> nature of God and Jesus Christ and the Holy
> Spirit.
This, I think we (LDS and TOCs) can all agree with.
> The Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible
Your unsubstantiated opinion is incorrect.
I have come to enjoy watching the Mormons avoid answering direct questions.
What happens when you disagree too much? And do you disagree? Provide specific examples where you do.
What does Traditional Orthodox Christian mean? Am I a TOC?
The differences concern the nature of God, Jesus, and the Spirit are what exactly and who says what about it?
I do not necessarilly want answers, but do this to show the inevitable circle of questions. For each answer I might receive, it would be another vague and maneuverable comment.
I’ll ask again, in case you didn;t read earlier: are there or are there not Masonic influences in the rituals above?
The topic is the temple ceremony and its usage in Christian witnessing. Please stay on topic in this thread.
GS, are you capable of a dialogue? It was P Hinkley that said that the two Jesus’s are not the same. You say unsubstantiated, I say no brainer. The Mormon Jesus is your elder brother, the brother of Satan, is not the great I AM, sweat sin, He created only this earth, no personal relationship bride/groom because He is your brother, his grace applies AFTER all you can do, He had to “earn” His Godhood and has pasty white skin.
The Biblical Jesus is NOT your elder brother, He is God, the great I AM, the only payment for sin is the shed of blood/death, not sweat! He is the creator of ALL THINGS, His grace is infinite and applies because you CAN”T do all you can do, He is and has always been God. “the word became flesh and dwelt among us” … JESUS! and he was a HEBREW, not white and delight-some.
This is not a battle over which Jesus is better or which one has more validity, but honestly GS, admit that they ARE NOT THE SAME, in any way what-so-ever. The Mormon Jesus is who Joseph Smith and the like said he was, NOT the apostles. The Mormon Jesus is their “example” or icon if you will, the Christian Jesus is their God, king of kings, LORD of LORDS.
GS, why is it so appalling for you to believe that you are not saved by the blood on the cross? is it ego, no such thing as a free lunch, because you want to be a God, equal with God … what is it?? the Gospel is so simple and so sweet, Jesus of the Bible never ever taught that you have to take oaths, know secret phrases and hand shakes or do works to be saved. He actually taught the exact opposite over and over again. “for by grace you are saved and not of WORKS” why do you have to put so much effort into making it so complicated??? My heart feels for you and the daily pressure of trying to DO enough to only then “hope” that you make it. You can know that you will be with God in heaven, and it is simply by the blood of the Lamb on the cross.
“the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing”
GSwarthout, simply restating the words of another and essentially (or quite literally) saying “no” and nothing else does not constitute the kind of constructive dialogue we’re after. Please improve upon it.
> but honestly GS, admit that they ARE NOT THE SAME
I thought I had made it abundantly clear that I beleieve the Jesus of TOC is different than the LDS Jesus and that the LDS Jesus is the biblical one.
> GS, why is it so appalling for you to believe
> that you are not saved by the blood on the cross?
Um, I DO believe that I was saved by Jesus’ atonement.
> is it ego, no such thing as a free lunch,
> because you want to be a God, equal with God …
> what is it??
I do wish to be “… heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ …” (Romans 8:17), but that is beside the point.
> My heart feels for you and the daily pressure
> of trying to DO enough to only then “hope” that
> you make it.
For the second time today someone has dredged up this old chestnut. I can assure you that I feel no pressure and that my belief in my salvation is no mere “hope”.
> GSwarthout, simply restating the words of
> another and essentially (or quite literally)
> saying “no” and nothing else does not
> constitute the kind of constructive dialogue
> we’re after. Please improve upon it.
I was wondering when the double-standard would re-emerge. The original poster stated an opinion, without the slightest shred of documentation or support. I expressed my contrary opinion. That I did so with many fewer words should be of no moment. When the original poster cares to back up his claims, I will also provide support for mine.
—
All, since this is my last post today (and I don’t post on the weekends), please feel free to pontificate, prevaricate, insinuate, and speculate to your hearts content, knowing that one particular misled sheep won’t be here to contradict you.
Have a good weekend!
What I want to know is this, Since the Time of Adam and eve down through king David, their was never a temple. Then after King solomen had it built, the Bible never speaks about all the secret things down in the LDS temple.
So a question is, How do you know what your doing was dome in the temples of old?
Then another question is, if the ONLY PERSON that was allowed into the Holy of Holies was the high priest, any one else was killed by God on the Spot, how come we have hundreds of LDS entering the temple?
Another thought is, once Jesus was crucifed the Veil was torn in to, so why do LDS sew up the Veil and rebuild temples that are not spoken of in the Bible? Rick b
It is apparent that conversation here will be much more time consuming than I would prefer. Limiting my posts to 3 per day essentially keeps me out of any substantive ongoing dialogue. At any rate, I would like to respond once more to “Germit” who said
“To quickmere and/or other LDS posters: it’s been said a few times that “the temple rituals are sacred, therefore kept secret…” or something along those lines.”
I’m unclear as to why you are putting words in my mouth. I never made this assertion here, so I would appreciate if you would refrain from misrepresenting me and my comments.
Thank you.
Please someone, anyone, show me in the NT where the apostles went to the temple, dressed up in costumes and performed the rituals Mormons perform either today or at any time in the history of the sect.
Please show me where the Bible teaches that these rituals are necessary for anything. That is, a purpose like salvation or progression to godhood. I want to know where in the Bible I can find people being sealed in the temple along with their spouses for eternity.
The bottom line is that Joseph Smith created the whole program. It doesn’t come from God. None of it was ever part of Christianity.
I thought Packham brought out interesting points from LDS canon that go against the practice of temple ordinances for the dead.
With regard to this dialogue, it is apparent that we as evangelical Christians are speaking a different language than the LDS. They use the word salvation, but it doesn’t mean the same thing as when Christians use it. When we say salvation, we are talking about eternal life in the presence of God. They talk about a general salvation in which every single person is saved from hell (in which they don’t believe, anyway). It’s when they talk about exaltation that they mean entering God’s presence, and that is the part that requires human works to attain. And, then, we’re still speaking a different language because they become gods, which they somehow seem to think is the proper interpretation of becoming joint-heirs.
I am reminded of a “Frazier” episode. Frazier and Niles get into this exclusive health spa, only to find that mere entrance isn’t good enough because there is a “gold” level. They pay the appropriate fee to get into this level and find themselves seemingly to be in heaven…until they see another door that is off-limits to them. There must be something better on the other side, and this heavenly state they were experiencing is no longer good enough. Despite being told they can’t enter the door, they do anyway and find themselve outside the club with the garbage.
As a Christian, being in God’s presence will be good enough for me; for the LDS, it’s not, and they create doors of elitism that will not lead to godhood but to Gehenna.
Quickmere: MY deepest apologies (no sarcasm here, I mean that) my last post should not have had your name in it OR I should have cleaned up the “it’s been said….” intro: I did not mean to state that YOU had said sacred=secret, although I can see where a fair reading of my post would give you that idea. You had, in fact, made no comment at all, pro or con, regarding your temple proceedings. My inclusion of your name, connected to ‘any other LDS postsers” was my idea to heighten the chance that I would get a response. By “it’s been said”, I was,clumsily, trying to say “I’ve heard it said by the LDS I’ve read etc……” this was not clear on my part, you have not made your position clear (yet) on Mormon Coffee. I will clean up my intros. My question still stands, and yours has been the only response. I may not know your response (yet) but I would like to: DOES sacred=secret reflect fairly the LDS position regarding temple rituals and ceremony, or perhaps you want to speak for just yourself. IF the answer to the above is YES, then my other question still stands: how can that be supported (as christian) when the NT is seemingly mute on that kind of secrecy. Sorry for the confusion. If you’ve given the answer to above in a more complete form in another venue,fine, direct me to where that might be. Our God is a God of order, and I’ll try to reflect, better, good ol’ dad. GERMIT
Not that it makes a huge difference, but I’m wondering if anyone knows how many active Mormons become “temple Mormons”. That’s is, what is the actual number of active Mormons that are into the whole temple ritual scene. I’ve seen numbers that report that of the actual number of Mormons listed on the church’s rolls, about 30% are active Mormons. I’ve also heard a report that about 50% of returning missionaries go inactive and are not regular participants in the Mormon church. I believe the presenter in the video above makes mention of the number of Mormons who are temple Mormons. I don’t know if that means of active members. I think he uses the number 25%. I’m wondering if this might have something to do with the Mormon push to build more temples. Then, I guess, it would give more Mormons an opportunity to become involved in the rituals depicted above.
I heard the author of “Mormonism for Dummies” on the radio freely admit, and I thought quite proudly, that the Mormon temple rituals come right out of Free Masonry. His argument was along the lines of “Why shouldn’t we use this ancient wisdom?” I get alittle exasberated with Mormons claiming that their beliefs and practices were part of the first century church. The claim is beyond bogus and reveals little understanding of the history of the Christian Church.
Joseph Smith’s history reveals that he was heavy into folk magic. So his religion is a high bred version of the Christianity of his day, early Christian heresy, early American legend and myth regarding native populations, folk magic and Free Masonry. Combine all of this with the psychological manipulation and practices of controlling people’s lives, and you have yourself your very own cult.
I hate to waste a post on this but I noticed I used the term “high bred” instead of “hybrid”. It’s early in the morning in Wisconsin.I haven’t even walked the dog yet!
This issue reminds me of the racial ban to priesthood, inasmuch as the elitism inherent in the temple ritual will be very hard to defend. I think the average Joe (the average ‘germit’) with a small amount of discernment knows that (as Ralph put it) “is no respecter of persons”. I think this is a point that even non-christians can get their minds around: again, similar to the priesthood ban. And probably for the LDS, the best defense is to just say as little as possible, and try as best they can to keep the whole thing under the sacred shroud. I can see where my LDS would be offended by Mr.Packham’s video: but your outrage centers on believing something that is just not true. CHRISTIANS DON’T HAVE HOLY PLACES: THEY ARE HOLY PLACES “Come and let yourselves be built, as living stones, into a spiritual temple; become a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For is stands written: ‘I lay in Zion a choice-stone of great worth. The man who has faith in it will not be put to shame.’ I’ve already done the cathedral thing, why would I have any use for a ‘stone’ other than Jesus Himself??? Strikes me as a HUGE downgrade. GERMIT
OOOPS: where are my manners: that was 1stpeter 2:5,6 and I should have said GOD is no respecter of persons. I’m reminded that many (thankfully not all) of the Jews were tripped up by the “holy place” thing and didn’t see that the TYPE (temple) was only foreshadowing the real deal (Jesus Himself). This mistake has been oft repeated in a wide variety of ways, a historical guy like Falcon could have a field day on this. Have a great weekend, all, yes you too Mr. Swarthout: rest that brain of yours. GERMIT
Pastor Mark Cares, a Lutheran pastor in Idaho, stated in his book:
“Only about 25% to 30% of Mormons are temple worthy. One reason for this low percentage is geogaphical. Some who live a great distance from a temple don’t bother going through the process o remaining temple-worthy. That is one reason why the LDS Church is building more and more temples. But the main reason why so few are temple-worthy is simply that many do not make the grade.” (Speaking the Truth in Love to Mormons, page 45)
The parallels between the rituals that take place in the Blue Lodge (the first three degrees of Freemasonry) and the Mormon temple ritual are strikingly similar. In the Blue Lodge the main character is Hiram Abiff and the candidate simulates the death and resurrection of Hiram Abiff. The fig leaf aprons that Mormons wear are instead acacia leaf aprons worn by Masons. You will see this at Masonic funerals. As one climbs up the ladder in Masonry they are told the supposed secret name of God. This name is a pagan trinity all combined into one.
I have an extensive collection of Masonic books and much of the symbolism in Masonry is in Mormonism (square, compass, beehive, sunstone, etc.). All a Mormon needs to do is look at the garment over each breast and look at the symbols. Joseph Smith didn’t get this from God. He got it from the Masons. I reiterate my points that I made in my earlier posts at the top on this issue with the Masons.
I read recently that the Utah Grand Master of the Lodge is a Mormon…no surprise there. My grandfather was a Mason and so was my brother. They left Freemasonry after they became Christians for obvious reasons. When I mention Joseph Smith and the Masonic connection to my brother he doesn’t want to talk about it and only laughs at how duped the Mormons are for falling for a copy-cat version of rituals that came from the Masons first. The Mormons haven’t stumbled onto something that is new. God doesn’t need to borrow anything from the Masons.
I truly do not understand anti-Mormon/LDS vehemency. Don’t TRUE Christians “Love thy neighbor”? If we are truly in the dark, as you believe we are, then wouldn’t true followers of Christ love us back into the fold? Isn’t the true gospel of Jesus Christ love? Who did he visit? The harlots, the publicans, the liars, gamblers, you name it. If we are truly lost and need recovering and need to be brought to the light of Christ, wouldn’t you be more successful by creating an atmosphere of love first, then teach us truth? There is so much anger and resentment and such a spirit of loathing, that I honestly don’t see the light of Christ anywhere on this blog. God is love, and I know that even though I am a Mormon, God loves me deeply. I am His child, His daughter, a child of Christ, as are you.
Wow, I wrote the words “ang*er towards Morm*ns” and you filtered them as profanity or slur. I truly don’t understand.
Thanks for the information, RickB, Berean, Falcon. The masonic connection is something Mormons will have to come to terms with using an apologetic band-aid good enough to sustain their testimony, or it will cause them to put many things into question. Much like the BoA translation, it just smells all too fishy.
It’s interesting that paganism has found its way into the temple, all introduced by Joseph Smith… Baptism for the dead being one of them, performed in the Bible by a group of pagans in a city north of Corinth. The next being the usage of pagan rituals done by the Masons for the endowment ceremony. The next idea being sealed so that you may become a God. – To a Christian, this whole thing is outright blasphemy or “Shameful” as Aaron pointed it out.
As RickB stated, where where the temples up until Solomon’s time?
on another note – I don’t think any Mormon could possibly conclude that the temple rituals are restored from the new testament church.
I wonder how many temple going Mormons know exactly where those marks on their underwear and on the veil came from. I think some would be shocked to know it wasn’t from God. I work with quite a few LDS folk, I’m thinking if I should just ask them what they know about freemasonry. Not mention Mormonism at all, but just see if they are familiar with Masonry. Then hopefully they will look into it and connect the dots.
Jeffrey: just thought I’d pull on a thread within the thread, so to speak: “….it (the masonic connection) will cause them to bring many things into question….” I’m sure you’ve run into this, but to me the really encouraging thing is ONLY ONE THING has to be called into question, initially. And then it’s the ‘loose thread on the sweater’ so to speak. My experience with this is only through what I’ve read, but it has stood out to me repeatedly that the “first thing started” for Mormons starting to question is quite often NOT one of the big theological dealbreakers, as important as they are. Seems as if it is quite often racism, polygamy, the masonic connection coupled with the seer stone, and on and on…. For many, the theological awareness seems to come later (as it certainly will), but not as necessary beginning point. Great stuff Berean and others, I’ll be printing out some of these posts and saving them for the next blessed mishie that comes a knockin’… GERMIT
You know it’s one thing if people want to dress-up in costumes and do rituals. All kinds of secret societies and clubs do this. It’s quite another when this is done in a “spiritual” context with occult underpinnings. Someone has pointed out all of the occult symbols on Mormons temples and clothing. We’ve gone over adnauseum Joseph Smith’s involvement in magic arts. I did an intense study way back when on the occult/spiritualism realm as part of learning about deliverance ministry. Mormons, unkowingly I’m sure, are tapping into something on the dark side thinking it is religious and of God. Satan doesn’t care that Mormans are moral upright people. He wants their souls and will use their desire for “spirituality” to provide them with such other worldly experiences. Why do you think that the nature of God is flipped upside down within Mormonism? The power of seduction in these temple activities is great.
Mormons, by participating in these temple rituals, are opening themselves up to an evil force that will, in the end, turn on them. Satan always collects on his debts.
nelsonjl04, it looks like you used the Mormon n-word. “Anger towards Mormons” is not filtered.
Romans 12:9
“Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.”
We are called to hate that which is evil and I will never hate a Mormon. I do not see Mormon people as evil, but I do see the temple rituals as such. The Mormon people are unknowingly hiding that which is evil and it is a Christians duty to bring that which is dark unto the light, so that it may be exposed.
It really does hurt when someone uses the Mormon n-word. It is judging the person which we all know what the Bible says about that. I say “The Mormon gospel does not save” which in no way is a judgment upon a fellow human being. However when someone says “You’re just an anti-mormon”, that is quite un-Christ-like.
Romans 12:14
“Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.”
That being said, I know I have probably said some things about Joseph Smith that may or may not be true, and for that I apologize. Biblically, I am to hate the sin and not the sinner. I believe Joseph Smith has been seriously taken by the Father of lies and his lie continues to live on throughout the LDS faithful. I pray for you guys that you will see through the fog and find the Light of Christ.
What is the Mormon n-word? I don’t recall using anything profane or ugly in my message. It was blocked out and I couldn’t remember exactly what I had written, but I would never use vulgarity or profanity.
Also, what is evil about our temple rituals? Do you think we do things which are sexual or violent in nature? If so, you have been mislead.
Nelson
click the link Aaron provided in the post and you will see what the Mormon N-Word is.
Things don’t have to be sexual and violent to be considered evil – in fact, I would consider claiming things that are false and attaching it to God’s true Gospel to be much more evil. Leading thousands/millions away from the True Christ and his freely given grace is much more evil to me than murder..
But now that you mention violence, that brings up the subject of the “penalties” portion found in the endowment ceremony prior to 1990. Again, another thing copied exactly from Freemasonry. I’m not sure when you first were endowed, but if you were, you would remember sliding your thumb across your throat and saying something like “…having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots..” – that very sentence makes me cringe.
Do you believe that oath to come from God? If so, maybe we should all join Freemasonry because they had it before the LDS church had it. Maybe they are the only true organization. Why the change? Was it too violent and creepy so the LDS authorities just removed it? If it was so easily removed, was it not necessary to begin with? If it wasn’t necessary, why was it even in there? These are questions I implore you to seek answers to, instead of brushing it off your shoulder. Would God change a holy and “Sacred” ritual? Was he pressured by mankind? Would God submit to our will? I think you know the answer.
I believe the sealing ceremony to be evil, as it is meant to make it possible for men to become a God, and God isn’t so keen on there being other all powerful, all knowing Gods.
I believe Baptism for the Dead to be evil as it was NOT performed by Christians in the Bible, but by pagans.
If one takes off their Mormon glasses, it’s very easy to see this, but many are too afraid to even attempt this as “the spirit may leave them”.
Glad to be back. Logged in before as footdoc, but having problems getting in. Just a few observations: I guess I am a little disappointed, though not surprised, that all of this is “old” material. The agruments against Mormonism (as critics love to call it) have always been Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon, revelation, and living prophets. As it should be! I appreciate that most critics are clear about their concerns. I wish they would go a step further and BE CLEAR that the intent of “exposing” the temple ceremony is not about “giving information” but an attempt to “expose” false prophets. Most have said that, but Postings about the Temple ceremony are not about the ceremony itself: they are a direct attack on the authority behind the ceremony. The same can be said of the Book of Mormon. It is not the content that critics often dwell upon (not enough material there), but the origin. Hence, the obsession with Smith and his seer stone. The constant reference to Joseph Smith’s supposed occult practices also facinate me. I don’t want to deviate from the assigned blog, but my point is, whatever “evidence” one wants to present “to expose the evil” of a practice (the temple ceremony), or a document (BofM), or pre/post prophetic behavior (peep stone activity) it is really about whether or not Joseph was a prophet. I know all of would agree to that. A quote from Jeffrey will suffice to make the point “I believe Joseph Smith has been seriously taken by the Father of lies”. Herein lies the chasm between believers (in living prophets) and nonbelievers. One starts with the premise that Joseph is a true prophet (and Monson as well) and finds evidence to support that belief while the other starts with the premise that he is a false prophet and seeks evidence that will support that belief. Before I say anything else, does anyone have any objections with those conclusions?
Well: we are now pushing into 80 posts for the topic and I’ve noted with interest that really only one entry (Apollo’s if I remember right) from an LDS has tried to defend the temple ritual, and that post was not that long. Everything else has been: I feel sad that….AARON is so sick that he….etc. These are legitimate feelings and expressions, but the pall of secrecy remains over the whole thing. I would not ask or expect my LDS listeners to go into temple specifics in a rebuttal, that would probably (sadly and needlessly, from my view) defile your conscience and I get that, but no one willing to defend even the concept of sacred=secret???? If your temple practices are that important to you, someone needs to man up, get over the shock value of Mr.Packham, and explain yourselves. The truth of the gospel deserves that. If God had you institute all this, step up and clear HIS good name . So far the silence, other than one very short attempt by Apollo, is deafening. I’m not trying to be belligerent, just calling em as I sees em. I knew this was going to be a hot potatoe. GERMIT
This is an emotional issue and it’s difficult for people to put emotions aside. I am referring to our Mormon friends who see the temple rituals as an intricate, foundational aspect of their religion. Exposing oneself to the facts of it, could destroy that which they hold near and dear. I think the “loose thread in the sweater” analogy previously referred to is very accurate. Mormonism is like that. The problem is there are a lot of loose threads. Once a question arises regarding the Mormon church, it’s history, beliefs and practices, and if the Mormon begins to look for answers (pulling at the loose thread)the whole garmet could unravel. That’s why Mormons have to cling so tenaciously to their testimony. The personal testimony is suppose to provide the answers. When facts contradict the testimony, the testimony is to be honored and factual evidence ignored.
This is not faith. It’s a control tactic. Being free in Christ Jesus is to be free from the religious grind of meaningless rituals that have the appearance of religion, but have no real power to save. Free in Christ. Freedom from the dictates of the law. Resting on the Savior rather than our own futile efforts. Chirst went through the pain and suffering of the Cross to provide, all who believe in Him, the free gift of eternal life. We don’t deserve it. We can’t earn it. But God offers it to us as a free gift. Accepting this gift, through faith provides us with peace of mind and releases us from the grind of meaningless religious rites. Being saved is about a personal relationship and an intimacy with Jesus that rituals can never provide.
Wow, you all are seriously comparing yourselves to the enslavement and ridicule of blacks? We “Mormons” (not even a correct term) were persecuted, robbed, raped, murdered, and driven out of our homes, constantly having to move from state to state, all the while being called the derogatory term “Mormon”. Did you know that whenever you use THAT term, you are actually insulting us? We have been asked by our general authorities to stop using that term because it was derived from people who hated us, persecuted us, who made fun of us, and we are truly not only insulting ourselves but using an incorrect term. We are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If you want to be truly respectful of US, you will call us Latter-Day Saints. So how come you all are so offended so easily when you haven’t been persecuted by us? I am finished talking to you all. I feel only frustration here, not open conversation. I am willing to be open-minded and try to understand you, but I believe you are not on the same page. Good luck with your endeavors. I am going to church now to renew my covenants with my Heavenly Father, and work harder this week at being a better Christian, something I do each Sunday, and teach my children to do as well. Then I will come home and continue my worship through study, prayer, service to others, and visiting with my family.
God bless you all that you may come to understand God’s true plan for you and your loved ones, whatever that plan may be.
Take care, and have a blessed Sabbath.
In this age of more access to information (via the internet primarily)it is becoming more difficult for Mormon missionaries to attract and retain new converts. Also, it is becoming more difficult to retain current members as they find out about the masonic roots of the Temple rituals, Joe Smith’s multiple wives (some married to other men), the now repudiated past teachings of the Church, etc. I speculate in less than 50 years much of the current mormon temple ritual will be jettisoned (added to the current pile of content that has already been edited out). With the LDS demonstrated ability to change and adapt their doctrine and practices I would not be at all surprised if the entire secret nature of the temples is tossed aside and their many temples are opened to the public for events, etc. I read online that many of the new temples sit empty and unused much of the time as the number of people going to the temple is decreasing (especially outside Utah). Interest among Mormons in participating in temple rituals is falling and the LDS religion often adapts to current cultural trends.
One more thing:
Sacred=Secret? I’ll answer with one scripture from the Bible (which we preach and teach; my children attend an early morning seminary class every day before school and learned the Old Testament last year, the King James version)
Matthew 7:6
By the way, read in James where Paul teaches that faith without works is dead.
Duh.. James, not Paul.
Two things have combined at this time in history to work against the LDS religion. The current lack of interest by the culture in Biblical morality — the Mormon leaders positioned the Church in the 20th century in the mainstream of cultural morality. Now like Christians, they find themselves outside the mainstream – with some of their members embracing the current lack of morality in the culture. Secondly, the great abundance of information easily accessible which undermines the entire LDS enterprise. When Mormons look for a foundation on which to stand against the current cultural morality and then find that foundation is shaky and not adequate to support them some re-evaluate and look for another foundation. I thank God that everyone can have a sure foundation in Jesus Christ crucifixion and resurrection. He is the foundation that does not fail. Trust in Him alone for salvation.
nelson, nelson, nelson,
Typical “tata” (that’s trumpet intro.) Later Day Saint tactic. Hit and run, don’t engage in the discussion, if the testimony can’t be hauled out, it’s over. I pray that you find Jesus and salvation. I would have liked to talked to you about the faith/works relationship but you’re gone.
mobaby,
Good stuff! I was cheering. I get excited about the things you posted. I wish I could remember the name of the book dealing with the Reed Smoot hearing that chronicles his attempt to get seated in the U.S. Senate. Anyway, at that time, Utah Mormonism basically made a deal with the government and the culture at large to dump plural marrage as dues for entering the club of “normal” society. The government and society then cut the Mormons some slack and reconfirmed the concept of religious freedom fundamental to our country. The years from 1890 to about 1905 could really be called the Utah Mormon reformation. Since that time, Utah Mornomism has progressively moved in doctrine and practice in an attempt to look more like mainstream protestantism.
Look at the Community of Christ (formerly known at the Reorganized Church of LDS) if you want to see a preview of coming attractions. Now the concept of progressive revelation allows the Utah Mormons to dump certain teachings and practices. However they have to do it in such a way that the faithful don’t get disgruntled and join the FLDS…..which in my view is really true Mormonism anyway.
These temple rituals get changed as news about them leaks out. I doubt very much if Joseph Smith would have made any of the changes that Utah Mormonism has made. He was radical and acted with violence when necessary as was the case with B. Young and other early Mormons. They gave as good as they got when it came to battling the establishment.
Hey Footdoc, glad to have you back.
I would like to comment on what you pointed out about “starting with the premise that..” but I have agreed to stay within the Temple topic instead of Prophets true or false topic.. I would like to just point out that Christians start with the premise that the Bible is true (and from evidence and history, it has shown to be reliable and worthy of ones trust.) And it is by God’s WORD, that we discern for ourselves whether your prophets are true or not, and lets just say the track record for Joseph Smith especially, has been embarrassing (BoA, false prophecies, occultic/masonic involvement, BoM inaccuracies, polyandry/polygamy). I’ve tried your truth test multiple times, and sincerely as my wife was LDS at the time and if I was wrong, I wanted to be shown the truth, and by praying praying, God told me it was not true, so where does that leave us, Footdoc?
Nelson,
You asked me a question about evil, and I answered it. Now you’re just saying “whatever” and walking away? I don’t understand what your intentions were here. It’s unfortunate you are unwilling to stick around and actually discuss these things. Defending your faith isn’t easy, I understand, but just know that I am not out here to destroy you as a person, but instead impart what I have learned about God through His Word, and compare that to the Gospel the LDS have.
If you decide to stick around, maybe you, as well as the other LDS can answer this question for me that I asked before and was not answered.
If you were to join a club, would you want to know about its history, how it came to be, and what it’s involved with, what kind of oaths you will be taking? If you knew about the Masonic involvement in the temple ceremonies before you were LDS or while you were still in young mens/young womens, would you have maybe thought different? Or looked into you’re very own faith a little more before just jumping in?
Nelson: Greetings, hope your sabbath was restful; I’m waiting for some relative to leave me jillions and allow me a multitude of days like today. Someday. OK: I’m a dog and a swine. I love dogs, so if this were a poker hand, I might stand pat. Maybe because I’m such a pig-dog, you don’t owe me any explanation, but what of the dozens who read this post and haven’t quite made up their mind about the truth of your church. OR, are having BIG doubts, because of ,,,well, those pesky pig-dogs like you-know-whom. Are you leaving the arena so soon? Not for my benefit, but you do those who are weighing these things out (Truthseeker comes to mind, although it sounds like they are more out than in) a disservice. Really, stick around (as the Lord leads, of course)and defend HIS name and HIS gospel. As for being offended, I have no idea what you are talking about. Not wanting to have any kind of secret agenda, I WILL admit to being annoyed on occasion with Mr.Swarthouts TOO BRIEF posts. I mean this as an observation, not an insult, and I am convinced he is capable of much better. Other than that, I don’t find disagreement to be offense producing, and I don’t catch that from most of the Coffee crowd here, LDS included. Your comments about evil have my mental wheels turning (probably grinding). Evil is MUCH bigger than Pol Pot, Adolph Hitler, and Charles Manson (overtly cruel, sadistic, violent acts). But I’ll have to think about how to capture that situation in language. Intriguing topic. Hope you hang with us: GERMIT
Nelson, in reference to the term “Mormon” being “insulting” and that “we have been asked by our general authorities to stop using that term”. I ask you to supply the reference and documentation on that. You ask it of us, so I ask it of you. I say that because I find that statement unwarranted in light of the evidence. As Mormon Apostle Russell Ballard stated at the 177th General Conference: “Facts: Some facts might include: First, ‘Mormon’ is a nickname for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Members are often referred to as ‘Mormons’, ‘Latter-day Saints’, or ‘LDS’.” (Ensign, Nov. 2007). Throughout this talk Elder Ballard uses the term “Mormon” in referring to members of the church. I don’t see any statement by him condemning the term.
If “Mormon” is a derogatory title, then I guess the LDS Newsroom at LDS.org hasn’t got the news yet. Consider the article titles just today:
“Who Are the Mormons”, “Mormons Encouraged to Shart Personal Perspectives Online to Explain Their Faith”, “Mormons Find New Ways to Engage With Others”, Men on a Mission: Far From Utah, Mormons Bring Their Faith Home to Vermont”, “Arkansas Mormon Women Prepare Memory Boxes for Bereaving Mothers”, “Physician Sees Benefits of Mormon Health Code in Reducing Cancer Risk”, “Mormon Roots Grow Deep in Vermont”, “Young Mormons Bring Relief to Elderly Cut Off by Hong Kong Floods”, “Mormons Aid Flood Victims in Indiana, Iowa and Wisconsin”, “Mormon Youth Make Helping Others Big Part of Social Gatherings”. I could quote many more especially what is written in those articles.
What about McConkie’s “MORMON Doctrine” that is sold at Deseret Books and is referenced repeatedly in LDS Church manuals? Speaking of that book this is what is said of that issue: “Accordingly, unofficially and by way of nickname, members of this restored Church have become konwn as Mormons, a name which is
(cont’d)
“…is in no way offensive or objectionable to them.” (Mormon Doctrine, page 513).
When is the church going to change the name of the MORMON Tabernacle Choir?
You know what offends me? Mormons calling themselves Christians when they aren’t. Mormons want that title, but it doesn’t apply. I personally don’t feel persecuted by Mormons. I do believe that Mormons have a persecution complex today when it’s unwarranted just because someone asks them some tough questions. How many Mormons are killed daily for their belief in Mormonism? Statistics today show that more than 400 Christians daily are martyred for their faith around the world.
Mormonsism started “persecution” of Christianity in Joseph Smith History 1:19. Christianity has no choice but to rise up and defend itself and that is what we do here.
You go every week and renew your covenants. Instead of living in a conditional covenant, Mormonism, you can live in an unconditional covenant, Christianity. While you “work harder this week” to complete “after all we can do” I can rest comfortably in what Christ has already done for me completely. I will grow in the Lord, but it will be from the heart (Rom 6:17), not because of law because the lawkeepers aren’t going to make it (Gal 2:16).
Lastly, the Sabbath is on Saturday. Christians worship on “the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) which is the first day of the week, Sunday, when Christ rose from the dead (Acts 20:7).
It’s too bad that you have decided to run away. James 2 “faith without works” is a great topic, but not the topic of this thread. Neither was what most of what I said. Aaron and Sharon, thank you for indulging me in 1 Pet 3:15 on this one.
Just back from holidays and look at what I’ve missed.
All I can say is that we LDS teach that the true form of worship towards God has been on this earth since Adam. We also teach that all other religions/faiths/etc have evolved from this true form of worship by man’s own pollution of the truth. In this we teach that all religions/faiths out there have some form of truth, but only the LDS has the whole truth.
For example, the Australian Koori have a belief in a Dreamtime where everything on this earth (the earth included) was first created spiritually before it became physical. Hindus or Buddhists (can’t remember which) believe in reincarnation towards a perfect being, LDS teach that we lived as spirits before this life, we have this life, there is the spirit world after death, then there is resurrection/judgment and assignment to a kingdom which is similar but not the same as reincarnation.
In saying this, it is my belief that what the Masons had was in part truth and that is one reason (not the only) why JS joined the Masons, to see the ceremony and then through revelation from God change it back to its original form.
As a small aside which supports my opinion but I cannot verify so I did not use it in my above argument, I have read somewhere on the internet a few years ago that the Masonic rituals came from documents found by the knights that invaded Jerusalem during the crusades, and these were found underneath the temple. I cannot find that reference, nor can I verify it – can someone else let me know if it’s correct or not.
Nelson, I am not sure why you state that “Mormon” is a perjorative term. I have a friend who is a very devout LDS from Utah, and she refers to herself as a Mormo. I have also been reading the book “In Sacred Loneliness” and many of the early LDS refer to themselves as Mormon as well. I was under the impression the LDS is the official term, and Mormon is the more colloquial, everyday term.
I agree with Berean on this one (surprise, surprise) If Nelson is really gone, I want to say something about the “Mormon” comment. I have no problem being called a Mormon. Mormon was one of the greatest prophets ever to grace the earth. His contribution to the testimony of Christ has been tremendous. Baptists don’t seem to care and neither do I.
Jeffrey,
The temple topic IS a prophet topic. Beth Elohim/Templum: literal translation is House of the Lord. It was introduced (according to the Bible) by Solomon (How dare he add to the law! Falcon would call him a “Progressive Revelationist” I’m sure) AND clearly sustained by the status quo until Jesus made his first appearance at age 12(no coincidence). It was the center of worship for centuries. Jesus called it his Father’s house(will leave the Godhead discussion aside). He went to teach in the Temple EVERY day. Sounds like a fairly important place. Forget the ceremony. My question is where in Christendom is the Temple? This is clearly a major Biblical teaching. If the Bible is the Word of God and that is your gauge of truth, where is this sacred edifice that was so important to Biblical prophets? Why aren’t the true band of Christians carrying on the faith of their fathers? I see no revelation in the Bible commanding that they discontinue their use. Surely the Savior would have not overlooked that or at least his apostles would have discontinued the practice. On the contrary Peter and John continued to go to the Temple daily(Acts 3: 1-3, 8, 10), after the resurrection. Do did Paul Acts 21: 26-30. And who is going to build the temple that John refers to multiple times in Revelation. This is Biblical, the Word of God. Since I believe that, why would I choose any Christian sect that doesn’t practice it? Before even approaching the ceremony, at least give me a contemporary alternative. If they have a Temple, I will at least consider it. Otherwise, it fails to pass the Biblical test of validity (according to your criteria)
RickB asked why do we have the veil when it was torn in two after the crucifixion? That was the end of the old covenant and the beginning of a new covenant. In the OT only the high priest was able to pass through this veil and enter the Holy of Holies. Now in the new covenant, all who are worthy can enter through the veil (a new one to symbolise the new covenant) into the Celestial room.
As far as this type of preaching to the LDS by using the temple ceremony, yes it can be and often is offensive to LDS if you use it, as it is sacred. As Jesus said in the Bible – do not throw your pearls before swine. To most LDS this is what has happened. You do not know nor fully comprehend what is happening until you have gone through the ceremony in the proper spirit and with the proper fore-knowledge/learning about the gospel (I’ll put LDS gospel in for any pedantics). Yes the first time may be strange to some, but to me it wasn’t. I do learn from the presentation when I am in the right spiritual frame of mind, while other times I just enjoy the rest and relaxation of the Spirit in God’s house – ie I place my burden at His feet and leave the world outside.
Ralph,
Please show me from the Bible, this New Veil you speak of. It simply is not their, Jesus is our high priest, we go through him to get to the Father, we do not go through the temple, or another veil, or a prophet. Have you not read the Book of Hebrews? Rick b
Mormons can have their temples and veils and all of the rituals that go with them because they are a self-contained religion. But to claim a larger historical or even theological purpose within Christianity is really a farce. In Mormonism we get a lot of folk legends and doctrines which (Mormons) attempt to shoehorn into NT Christianity or claim as early Christian practice. This is all within the context of restoration and revelation.
As a sidebar, there is a movement within Mormonism that is called the Mormon restoration movement. Very interesting to read about who has the “truth” within Mormonism. It seems that there isn’t a consensus on “truth” among the followers of Joseph Smith.
As usual, I went to my first “go to source” (other than the Bible) regarding anything of a historical theological nature. Christian History Issue 37 is titled “Worship in the Early Church”. Topics such as: Eyewitness accounts, where Christians met, did they worship like the pagans?, high-drama baptism, from the last supper to holy communion, and early hymns, sermons, and prayers are dealt with in this issue. Now the reason I like this publication is that it’s not sanitized history. The writing is done by experts who give the reader the nitty gritty on the topic being discussed.
The article “Where Did Christians Worship” describes the evolution of places of Christian worship. Anyone who is interested can google Christian History and Biography and get back issues for $5 and a modest shipping charge.
It’s pretty tough to find Mormonism in the NT Church. Mormonism was Joseph Smith’s creation and because of a lack of knowledge in the historical and scientific fields of study, the gullible of his time would accept his revelations as truth. There really is no excuse for that today.
Defender,
Where is the Sacred Edifice in Christianity?.. In Christians themselves.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
1 Corinthians 6:19
2 Corinthians 6:16
Ephesians 2:20-22
God lives within us and all one needs is Jesus, for He is the ONLY way unto the Father.
Temples will fall, and can be broken. However, the saving grace of God who is within those whom have faith in Him, endures forever.
Biblically, I don’t see where rituals in temples are used for salvation and exaltation. I see them shown as places of worship, offerings, and sacrifices.
If you were to have a restoration of the Biblical temples, where are your burnt offerings, sacrifices, etc?
It’s not you in the temple, it is God in you.
Jeffrey: 100% on target. And to all LDS, including those I’ve accidently chased off: why stop at temple reconstruction while you are busy reconstructing things. Jeff has mentioned sacrifices, but why not the entire Levitical priesthood (your Melch. version looks incomplete by comparison), feast days, circumcision (this might not be a best seller in the 3rd world), kosher diet, and this list could get VERY big, very quickly. Why so picky about a FEW aspects about a FEW things (and MASONIC aspects, at that) Is this not JS at his ADHD best (or whatever they were calling hyperactivity back in the 1800’s). Grab this, ignore that. There doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason, but then maybe there is order there that this pig-dog just doesn’t appreciate. GERMIT