[SWF]http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=948605920993957621&hl=en&fs=true,400,326[/SWF]
Richard Packham‘s video is also available on YouTube
Publicly exposing the Mormon temple ceremony takes away the superficial power of secretiveness and mystery and helps people face reality. The power of mystery is largely sapped with a simple YouTube video.
Obeying God’s commandments is a form of Christian worship. God’s word tells us:
“Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, ‘Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.'” (Ephesians 5:11-14)
Even the LDS Articles of Faith say, “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Since many Mormons use this verse to argue that the someone’s form and content of worship (especially their own) should never be criticized, I ask: Are Mormons going to criticize my form and content of worship when I obey God by exposing shameful things?
Trade in your green fig leaf apron for a cross. What God has revealed to the children of man, he has revealed to all the children of man. Find more private satisfaction in the public, personal word of God than in the shameful ceremonies of Joseph Smith.
Tips to Christians For Using (or Not Using) the LDS Temple Ceremony Content When Engaging Mormons
- Be led by the Spirit and be respectful and sensitive to people. The challenge here is immersing yourself in the Bible so that you adopt more biblical concepts of love and respect than worldly concepts. Being loving and sensitive will often require you to engage other issues of the heart and simply point people to the true nature of God and the gospel. But the Spirit may lead you to tear down false pretensions (cf. 2 Corinthians 10:4-5) and idolatry by exposing the ceremony. It is no more disrespectful to expose the shameful LDS temple ceremony than it is to expose pervasive mold to a prospective house buyer.
- Part of the whole question of whether to reveal the temple ceremony concerns strategic and loving engagement, but there is also a power struggle that is real. It cannot be ignored. People who feel like they have secrets often feel like they have a power over other people. Mormons will sometimes refer to the temple as the only appropriate place to discuss certain doctrines. Sometimes it helps to break this superficial facade of power and exclusivity by revealing your knowledge of the temple.
- Bringing up the ceremony will often end a conversation, so be wise about if and when you do it.
- That said, I suggest teaching Mormons who haven’t been through the ceremony, especially teenagers, the three secret hand clasps. Ask them if they think secret handshakes will help get them into Heavenly Father’s presence. Many will vehemently say, “No!” Express your agreement. Ask the same people, “If Satan told you to make a green fig leaf apron, what would you do?” The responses I hear are interesting. “I wouldn’t do it!” “I’d tell him to be quiet.” I like to advise people, “If Satan ever tells you to make a green fig leaf apron, rebuke him!” If they go through the temple ceremony, they will be reminded of these things. This will help them feel creeped out by the ceremony. They should feel that way, and you owe it to them in love to help them be sober about it.
- Break the news to them. The things you have just spoken of are actually in the LDS temple ceremony. If they don’t believe you, tell them to ask their parents. Or Google. The internet has more power to deliver knowledge than the Mormon “priesthood” ever will.
- Don’t over-sensationalize the role of Satan in the temple ceremony. I recommend a good article by Jerald and Sandra called, Obsession With Lucifer?.
- Expect opposition over this. Letting the cat out of the bag will drive some defenders of Mormonism in your community nuts. But keep a sober mind that this isn’t about them. It’s about the true seekers. The inherent shamefulness of the LDS temple ceremony really causes a crisis of conscience in people that causes them to leave the Mormon Church and take Christianity more seriously. Don’t want to see a close relationship severed? That’s OK. You can at least get the word out to people who haven’t been through the temple, who you can tolerate being upset at you. It’s worth it in the long run for their own sake.
- Remind your LDS friends that this isn’t a matter of trivial humor. It’s serious. It is a matter of informed consent. People have a right to know about this all before they join Mormonism.
- Ask, “Is the Book of Mormon is sacred?” “Of course.” “Is it public?” “Yes.” “So, if something is sacred, does it have to be secret and hidden from the public?” This helps when someone explains that simply because the ceremony is “sacred” it cannot be discussed publicly.
- Ask, “Why was the temple veil torn in two when Jesus was crucified?”
- Ask, “Can you think of any examples of people being married in the Old Testament temple?”
- Ask a Mormon if they are aware of the changes in the temple ceremony. Also ask, “Are the parts of the temple ceremony removed in 1990 still sacred?”
- Express your feelings about having your pastor mocked as a hireling of Satan in the pre-1990 LDS temple ceremony. Ask, “If Protestants had a secret ceremony where we called your bishops hirlings of Satan, what would you think if I said it was too ‘sacred’ to talk about?”
- Point them to the sufficiency of Christ. Share Hebrews 7 and tell them you want them to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, our great high priest. Eternal life is all about knowing Jesus, receiving Jesus, and believing Jesus as he freely offers us the forgiveness of sins and fellowship with God forever. Christians now have the indwelling of the Spirit, and our level of intimacy and fellowship with God is not dependent on whether we are in a certain building.
- Be like Jesus: “And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, ‘Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.'” Mark 13:1-2
I’ll close with a letter from an ex-Mormon Christian written to Bill Mckeever:
“Good afternoon Mr. McKeever. This email is an apology to the nasty and derogatory remarks I sent you in the past. I do not know if you remember our conversations but it was obvious that I was so deep into Mormonism, I did not realize how uneducated I sounded for defending a false faith. It is my prayer that every member of the LDS church come to the realization that Joseph Smith is one of the false prophets that the Bible warns us about. I came to my realization shortly after finding out the details of Temple rituals. I was officially removed from the membership records as of May 2005… Realizing that accepting Christ as my personal savior and putting all of my trust in him instead of Gordon B. Hinckley has made a magnanimous impact upon my life as a Christian. I want to personally thank you for distributing websites like these to bring LDS members out of the dark and into the light. Thank you for being a bold servant of Christ and May God Bless you and your co-workers always. Please feel free to post this message on your site as a hopeful inspiration to all LDS who wish to leave.”
Defender (formerly footdoc):
Glad to see you are back. I was wondering where you went after you read the false prophecy from Joseph Smith in History of the Church, Vol.2, page 182. I gave you the full quote as you asked and then you disappeared. Did you go buy the 7 volume set? I hope you did. LDS members would serve themselves well to learn the history stated therein especially when it comes to your founding prophet.
Back on topic, as Jeffrey stated in listing out the details of where the temple fits in with New Testament theology, I want to ask you to explain to me what Jesus meant in John 2:19-21 especially verse 21.
Was Peter and John going to the temple to do ordinances that the Mormons do in their temples? No. It said they went there for prayer. The Christian church was being established and churches weren’t built yet. I can go to any building and pray to Heavenly Father while the masses sitting in that building are praying to somebody else. I’ve done this in Catholic churches when people are praying to Mary as a mediator. I pray to Jesus (1 Tim 2:5). I’ve done this in Mormon wards. When Mormons are praying to the Mormon god (heavenly father) and not through Jesus Christ of the New Testament because it dishonors heavenly father to do so according to Mormon thinking, I am praying to God through Jesus Christ.
When we get to 1st Corinthians we never read again of the apostles going to the Jewish temple for prayer. Paul liked going where the future Christian converts were going to be to engage them in dialogue. He went where in Acts 17:17? When I want to reach Mormons I don’t sit on my hands here in my house waiting for a knock on the door, I go to the Mormon wards where the Mormons are just like Paul did with the Jews in the text in Acts 17:17. That is biblical.
See, there are some things that I know. I know that neither Jesus, the apostles or any NT Christian wore “sacred undergarmets” with masonic symbols on the breasts and navel. I know there were no Christian temples. I know (see previous post) what ordinances and worship style the NT Church practiced. I know there was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (the third one there) and that neither Jews or Christians performed rituals as those demonstrated in the video above.
I know that Jesus is not the offspring of a mother and father god. I also know that God is not an exhalted man and I know that men won’t become gods. I know that Mormonism cannot provide the pathway to eternal life. I know that Jesus is the Christ and through His sacrifice on the Cross and the grace that is extended to us by the Father; by faith alone I have received the gift of eternal life.
Jesus frees people from the law and the tyranny of endless religious works. We have no righteousness of our own a apart from the Blood of Jesus. I know this and bear my testimony.
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. For in Christ all the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with himin baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore, do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ” (Col. 2:6-17).
The issue of others trying to enslave us through rules and regulations is not new. Christ is the reality of our salvation. Anything we add to it as humans is not the reality of salvation. What JS teachings do is rob Jesus Christ of His Deity and His power to save us.
Jeffrey,
Nice quotes. Unfortunately, you haven’t stated anything I don’t believe. Just because we are the temple of God doesn’t answer the question of whether an actual temple is necessary or not. If that were the case why command a temple be built…ever, including old testament times? Certainly the temple is a place of prayer and worship. Maybe you should review the atheist “informants” video if you have questions regarding sacrifice and offerings. Perhaps he left that part out. If Jesus is the only way to God, why doesn’t the Christian world allow him to dictate the requirements necessary? I am curious if you believe in any essential ordinances…let’s pick Baptism to start.
As for Berean, let me get this straight. You are saying that praying to the Father in the name of Jesus is praying to a false God. I suggest you refresh yourself with Matt. 6: 5-7, 9 John 17: 9, 15, 20. I would also like to hear where Jesus commands his followers to pray to Him.
Falcon: I see a lot of I know’s. Either you are a first hand witness of something that happened or didn’t happen (I am confident you are not John the Beloved) or you received revelation about the subject. Certainly, the first is not the case. If you have received personal revelation, then you are out of line with Christian dogma. If you insist that personal revelation is real (which I would agree), then why the split with traditional Christianity and also please show me Biblically when a person received a testimony of something that did not happen or that was false.
I am still on the topic of the temple. I am just establishing that the arguments presented so far, from the Bible, are not convincing. Temples are an intricate part of Biblical history, Jesus called it His Father’s house, the apostles went to the temple and no command exists to discontinue its use. By the way, LDS temples are based on a commandment from God, and would be built whether the Bible mentioned them or not….
Defender,
How sad that you choose to defend the teachings of JS et al rather than the Bible. As with all LDS, you work from the faulty premise that the Bible is translated incorrectly and practically worthless unless it measures up to JS and his teachings. Your article of faith should say: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is “interpreted” correctly…” There is really no translation done with regard to JS “translation” of the Bible. That would require scholarly study of the documents available. I have a question for you: why was the JS translation not completed by some other “prophet” after JS was killed?
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands” (Acts 17:24). One reason the temple in Jerusalem was built was to centralize worship (there was only one temple, not temples). During the exilic period, the synagogue came into existence, and the Israelites learned that they could worship God from where they were. Before, the temple was the place where God was present, but that all changed with Christ and the Spirit being sent after His death and resurrection. That’s why Paul writes: “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple” (Romans 3:16-17). It’s sad that you don’t find arguments based on the Bible to be convincing. I just wish you would consider that there just might be something wrong with LDS belief system if the Bible has to be attacked and relegated to insignificant status in order for LDS doctrine to breathe.
All of these scriptures speak of believers in Christ Jesus being the temple, therefore, there is no need for a temple during this dispensation of grace. God made us His dwelling place. Only believers on Jesus, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, the body of Christ are His temple.
1Cr 3:16-17 “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.”
1Cr 6:19-20 “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are
God’s.”
2 Cr 6:16 ” And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
Eph 2:20-22 “And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
Jesus also prophesied about the destruction of the temple.
Mat 24:1-2 “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
This was fulfilled in AD 70 when Titus, and the Roman armies he was in charge of, literally took each stone apart in order to get the gold that had melted from when they had burned it down. God’s prophecies are detailed and accurate. There will not be another temple until the time of Jacob’s Trouble, and you do not want to be here for that.
Defender: I’m going to “waste” a post, probablymy 3rd and jump in: where do you get the strange idea that traditional christians do NOT believe in personal revelation?? I personally do not know of ANY christian that does NOT believe in God speaking to his children early, often, and individually. What we do NOT believe in is placing our subjective, private, understanding of what HE said as a stronger, more reliable, more AUTHORITATIVE source of inspiration that God’s holy word. Granted, our interpretation of that word may be in error, but we are admonished to let our lives be led by what God has revealed in His word, and THAT is a corrective to HIS other words (and HE is always talking), NOT our experience giving the correction to HIS written word. Don’t the words of your scriptures and those of the current living prophet hold sway over the individua testimonies of Grant Palmer, Mr.Dehlin, Todd Compton, and YOU ?? God reveals HIMSELF daily, but the orthodox view is to keep these revelations in a checks and balances (see Acts 17:11) to make sure they aren’t last nites hungarian goulash instead of the Holy Spirit. The temple was necessary , as circumcision and many many other parts of Judaism, as a foreshadowing TYPE. When the REALITY that these things predicted arrived, the TYPE was no longer mandetory, though not necessarily evil or wrong. Replaced by the BIG DEAL, and for most of those types, that big deal is Christ Himself: the ONE who hold the PERMANENT, INDESTRUCTIBLE PRIESTHOOD: see Heb.Chapter 7. Most of what you post (and this will sound condescending,excuse me in advance) shows you don’t get the old covenant/new covenant thing. GERMIT
DOF,
Why the name change? You been lurking out there waiting for a chance to get back in the fun?
I’ve been waiting to pull this out. “I don’t need evidence from man, I have my testimony.” Man that’s fun and easy. Takes no effort and wow the authority it gives me.
Hay I get personal revelation all the time and it’s perfectly acceptable within Christian dogma (please see First Cor. 12-14). But my personal revelation lines-up with the Bible. I’m no loose cannon. Joseph Smith and other false “prophets” were loose cannons. I can give you a list of the false prophet hall of fame if you wish.
So you don’t think there are false prophets in the Bible? Check out the OT you may find one or two and I think there was a constant warning regarding false prophets in the NT. There’s a test for false prophets and that’s one test Joseph Smith passes with flying colors.
Actually, I don’t need personal revelation to “reveal” to me the “I knows” I posted above. Find a legitimate book on early Church history (I can recommend a few) and it’s right there (or not there depending how you look at it) in black and white. No sacred underware with Masonic symbols, no Christian temples, no temple Masonic rituals, no plural wives, and no vast conspiracy to keep anything out of the Bible. That’s enough right there for an open and shut case that Joseph Smith was no Christian and Mormonism is not a Christian religion.
Now don’t get me wrong, if you want to wear sacred underware and dress-up in costumes and do rituals that’s your right. But don’t be so disingenuous as to call it restored Christianity. I think you need to look at “restored Mormonism”. Some of your religious relatives have moved on while others have moved back. Utah Mormons seem to be stuck somewhere in the middle trying to figure out how they can look and pretend to be protestants. The temple video is a real “truth buster” as far as that’s concerned.
jackg:
Interpretation and translation are the same thing but for one difference; Interpretation is changing one thing to another verbally, and translation is changing one thing to another in written form. So the article of faith you quoted is correct.
Hi guys, I thought I’d drop by and read your messages. I won’t argue with you, because you won’t change, and neither will I.
One thing I ask is that you stop accusing me and my Mormon (which I don’t mind at all being called, by the way) friends evil or lost or having no relationship with Christ. I live a good, clean life and teach my children Christian values and to look to Christ for their Salvation. I’m saddened that you think of us as evil-doers.
Defender of Faith: Don’t waste your breath, you can’t teach here.
Have a blessed day!
Jackg,
I did not mention one teaching of Joseph Smith. In fact, I purposely used only biblical references for the sake of my audience. How can you accuse me of defending Joseph Smith and not the Bible when I haven’t mentioned one thing he said and used only Bible references?
Jackg,
I do find the Bible to be very convincing… just not your interetation. The Christian world has found the Bible to say just about whatever it wants it to. I only need to site the schism of Christianity with its innumerable sects.
At least we have established that the Temple is intrinsically Biblical. We may argue what was done there, was it was for, etc. Please show me evidence from the Bible that they did not wear funny clothes. If Aaron’s clothing in the Tabernacle is not bizarre, I don’t know what is. Bottom line: He did what the Lord commanded, regardless of its pecularity.
I feel for my Christian apologetics on some other websites, because they will not admit that there may be some errors in the Scriptures. Prophets have never claimed to be infallible. But atheists, agnostics, etc. continually rip Christendom scripture because of blantant mistakes that nobody will admit to. The Bible has errors, the Book of Mormon has errors (which their prophets will fess up to)…but that does not disminish the validity of their testimony of the Christ. I can accept scriptual errors because the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life.
nelsonjl4,
“One thing I ask is that you stop accusing me and my Mormon (which I don’t mind at all being called, by the way) friends evil or lost or having no relationship with Christ. I live a good, clean life and teach my children Christian values and to look to Christ for their Salvation. I’m saddened that you think of us as evil-doers.”
That is a perfect example of what is wrong with mormonism. Your own righteousness of living a “good, clean life” is entirely inadequate. In fact I would submit it is an affront to assume that your own righteousness has any part in your salvation, even when coupled with Christ. If you seek to add anything to Christ, you in essence say that His death and resurrection are inadequate to accomplish salvation.
DoF,
“I can accept scriptual errors because the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life.”
Ironic that you quote Scripture (out of context and incorrectly, but anyway…) to claim that Scripture is infallible. What if 2 Cor 3:6 in wrong, that kind of leaves you in a pickle, doesn’t it?
Your argument about the many sects of Christianity is specious. While we differ in practice (i.e. baptism), every true Christian church holds to the same basic tenets: justification by faith alone, the imputed rightouesness of Christ, His ssubstitutionary atonement, the inerrancy of Scripture among others. No Christian church differs from another on the essentials of how a sinner is reconcilled to God and saved. We disagree on secondary issues but true Christians are in agreement on every essential doctrine.
My wife and I went through te temple in Washington D.C. and there is nothing of God going on in that heretical edifice. Beautiful on the outside, but inside it is full of spiritual death.
So Arthur? I can say I have faith in Christ and be saved no matter what I do? Steal, be dishonest in my dealings with my fellow men, swear, commit adultery, abuse my children…etc. and it doesn’t matter as long as I have faith that Christ died for my sins? My point was that I am an honest, upstanding member of society. I teach my children to be honest, kind to others, help the needy, love their neighbor, basically the commandments of God. I don’t understand why God gave us commandments if he didn’t intend for us to keep them? Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Why are you angry because I said I live a good, clean life? Don’t you lead a good, clean life? I would assume you do since you profess to be Christian, and every Christian I know tries his or her best to live a good, clean life. What did I say so wrong? Anyone here want to back me up on this, or is it that no matter WHAT I say, I am wrong because I am a Mormon?
I know that unless I have faith in the saving grace of Jesus Christ, I can not enter into my Father’s Kingdom. I can learn to keep ALL the commandments ALL of the time by the end of my life and it will do me no good without the saving grace of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Only He can let me in. You can be as angry as you want at me, but you cannot take away this knowledge I have, and the love in my heart that I feel toward my Savior for what He did for me.
It’s interesting how easily offended and angry you all get. True followers of Christ would be slow to anger and quick to forgive.
Nelson, I don’t think anyone on here is angry at you. Impassioned about the subject matter, yes. I think the purpose of this blog is to debate, and at times, to argue about the most important things in the world. There is nothing more important than a person’s relationship with God and the way they view God. There is so much at stake here. We believe that your eternal future is at stake. I know you find that ludicrous, but please view the sparring on here as concern for you. You say that the saving grace of Jesus is what will get you in. Into where? Heaven in the traditional sense, meaning with God? Or the Celestial Kingdom? In your theology, the grace of Jesus alone will not get you to the CK, but ennables you to escape hell and take part in the resurrection. You believe it is His grace IN ADDITION to works such as getting married in the temple, etc. that gets you into the CK. His grace plus “all you can do”, as LDS say. In classical Christian theology, nothing we do ennables us to enter God’s presence. It is His grace alone. But that doesn’t mean license to do whatever we want. Because I am saved, I live to please God, NOT because I please God, I will be saved. And now, I am expecting a reference to the second chapter of James….
Nelson “I live a good, clean life and teach my children Christian values and to look to Christ for their Salvation.”
I guess you should be expecting an applause and a pat on the back from society… I appreciate you’re attempt to be a good human being, honestly, because it creates a lot less sin in the world. However, what do you expect from God when our works are as filthy rags? (Isa 64:6). Do you think God will say, wow, you gave me 145 filthy rags, here’s your Goodhood?
Romans 3:20 NIV
“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”
Romans 3:9-12 NIV
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[c]
Do you think you have anything to offer? No, you do not. Only Christ had something to offer, and He gave it, so that we may live. For that, Praise be to Him! Biblically, God is pleased when we work hard to spread his Gospel, but that in no way has anything to do with your salvation. He expects it of those whom have received Him.
The article of faith should read “His grace, after that, do all you can do to show the gift you have received to bring others into Christ, not for your own celestial paycheck.”
Defender, unfortunately you have stated nothing to show me that temples are necessary for salvation.
Nelson, I have never called a Mormon an evil person so maybe its someone else your talking about. I will say the practices you do, unknowingly to you, are evil, though. There is a difference there.
DOF: thanks for your posts, they reflect your effort: do all the ‘schisms’ prove something about the trustworthiness of the bible, and/or whether or not we have the true gospel?? There are now 110 different schisms from what JS started. You’ve been around for just shy of 200 years. When your restored thing has been around as long as orthodox christianity, at the present rate, there will be 1100 schisms of your group. And that proves what really?? I’d say not much. People make choices and always try to improve what they’ve got, whether that’s an improvement or not. AND as AARON noted, groups within the orthodox umbrella, and that’s a wide variety including the anabaptist traditions, roman catholic, eastern orthodox, mainline protestant, and charismatic,(to just name SOME) ALL agree on the essential tenets of the faith. This gets to the spiritual unity of the church, which is a hard one for the LDS to get ahold of , because we are not tithing to the same monolithic, mall producing, Mason promoting, machine. Have a great Tuesday. Again: like your posts. GERMIT
NT Christians did not wear sacred underware with Masonic symbols, dress-up in costumes to wear in temples (because they didn’t build any, and perform rituals (in the temples they didn’t build). They didn’t practice the priesthood because they saw Christ as the High Priest. THESE ARE FACTS. I figure if I say it louder maybe our Mormon contributors will hear it.
No sacred underware with Masonic symbols, no Christian temples, no Masonic temple rituals, no priesthood blah, blah, blah, blah……… It wasn’t left out of the Bible so as to create a great apostasy from which the Church needed to be restored. Please do some scholarship. There’s nothing at stake here except your immortal soul.
You know what? This site is so full of contention and anger that I simply cannot wrap my heart around it. You are trying to convince me that my heart is in the wrong place, which shows me that you are judging my heart, and that turns my listening ears off immediately.
If anyone is arrogant in their faith, it is all of you. Have you stepped back and listened to yourselves? You are so full of judgment and contention that I cannot feel the love of God anywhere here.
If you can answer me these questions with true doctrine from the Bible, then I could be persuaded to stick around:
Who did Christ pray to when He was in the Garden asking for the cup to be removed? Who did He pray to on the cross when He asked “Father forgive them”? Who was He praying to when He said, “Father I commend my spirit”? And when His disciples asked Him when His second coming would be, He answered that no man knows, not even HIMSELF, but that only the Father knows. Tell me then, how could the FATHER know but not HIMSELF?
These questions were posed to me by a woman confused by HER religion (Baptist). So you answer them for me, okay?
And when did I ever claim to be better than you or anybody or that I believed that my works are my salvation? In fact, funny thing, I was just reading my Bible and came across a passage that reads:
“As the Father hath loved me , so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, ye shall abide in my love; even as I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER’S COMMANDMENTS, and abide in His love. These things have I spoken unto you that my joy may remain in you and that your joy may be full.” St. John 15:9-11
I strive daily to keep the commandments, not to puff myself up and to believe that I am better than anybody else, for this is sin. I simply do it to show my love to my Savior for what He did for me.
Look, I can’t say ANYTHING right here. You want me to deny my faith, and I won’t do it. Take care.
One more thing,
You assume that because I am a Mormon, that I haven’t read all the literature you mention, but I HAVE. I have read and reread and judged for myself. I have visited other churches to find the truth, and found it in the LDS church. I prayed to God, not your God, not the Mormon God, just God, and felt a joy in my heart when I chose to stay in this church. I live this doctrine and strive to keep the commandments because it brings me a peace and joy that the world cannot offer. You are so angry by our doctrine, when you sit back and basically tell me I’m going to hell for what I believe and practice. Well if hell is anything like the Mormon church, sign me up!!
Megan, Where does classical Christian theology come from exactly?
Look, I have a busy life with three active teenagers and church duties and college and a husband, and HAM radio (a hobby), and so much more. I simply don’t have time to keep worrying about trying to convince you all that you’re wrong about my faith. It is impossible, but Megan, thanks for being kind and not contentious. I’ll listen to you any day and even consider your words, but if anyone ever tells me that what I practice is EVIL, then I won’t listen, because I truly believe they are from God.
DOF: your wrote “the LDS temples are based ON A COMMANDMENT FROM GOD AND WOULD HAVE BEEN BUILT WHETHER THE BIBLE MENTIONED THEM OR NOT….” well, that about says it: why are we bothering with exegisis?? Once again, JS gets a pass on the ACTS 17:11, and if he says God told him, well, God told him. Reminds me of a recent Ralph post where he said he would have someone killed if God told him (can’t remember, Ralph if you included the prophet’s input on that or not, sorry for the shakey memory) This “God told me card is TROUBLE: and it is NOT limited to things LDS, the same thought has caused untold trouble within orthodoxy as well. That’s why God left us a sure lamp unto our feet and light unto our path. WE (ALL) NEED THAT LIGHT. Germit, more than most. BLESSINGS.
Off Topic, but here goes.
Who was Jesus talking to in the garden and on the Cross? He was talking to the Father. One God, three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Since time is a consequence of creation, the Son pre-exists all time and is thus eternal like the Father, and indeed His timelessness is one of the attributes that manifests Him as the divine Son, worthy of worship. Divinity is an absolute term that allows no degrees….just like pregnancy has no degrees. If Jesus is not fully God, he is not really God at all, and thus to worship Him is not piety but idolatry. God’s being is not divided, and yet the persons of the Godhead are truly distinct from each other. God is undividedly one and yet irreducibly three. Along with this is the doctrine of inseparable operation. That is all three persons are present in each and every divine action.
Nelson,
Sorry if my manner is too caustic for you. I’m a passonate guy who has a strong committment to Christ. I take the defense of the Gospel seriously, but mean no direct insult to those who follow a different path.
DOF: sorry to come back to you so much, but there don’t seem to be many of you children of Zion hanging around, I’m trying to not be a meanie. You said “At least we have established that the temple is intrinsically biblical” This isn’t news to you, probably, but IN THE BIBLE, and MANDATED BY GOD TO ALL DISPENSATIONS, are two radically different things. There a jillion things in the OT that are “intrinsically Biblical” but that doesn’t get at: does God want us to put (fill in the blank) in practice today??Pinheaded pig-dogs that we are, we are not likely to glibly swallow “God told the Prophet..” so we’re back to the NT. Do you have a response to the point that Peter,John, Paul, etc were in the Temple for prayer and evangelism, not as a ‘model’ to follow. WOW: I’d never thot about it, but wouldn’t that mean the Gentile believers would have to become JEWISH proselytes to go in there?? Are you going down that road ?? Why the vaccuum of commandment regarding this temple thing for NT believers ?? Are those some of the ‘precious things removed’ that LDS talk about?? I’ve worked off lunch: you are slugging it out like a warrior, may truth lead us all to love. GERMIT ps: hard to PROVE A NEGATIVE reg. the underwear in the Bible, just ask GSW if you can find him…absence of evidence and all that
Defender,
Biblical exegesis is something the LDS Church does not bother to teach its members. Consequently, its members, such as yourself, find your only defense to be to attack the “interpretation” of someone who is in love trying to reveal God’s simple word and truth. I would appreciate it if you would be so kind as to point out the error(s) you see in my exegesis, and then correct me with yours. I believe the text I quoted was fairly straightforward. The centralization of worship is in our hearts, not in buildings made by human hands. The “endowment” you believe to be necessary for your entrance into God’s presence is an empty system of secret handshakes, secret passwords, and new names. I call it empty because these don’t get you into God’s presence–only the reconciliation effected by Jesus Christ on the cross and by His resurrection accomplishes this. To believe that such a temple endowment is necessary is to say that the Work of Jesus Christ was insufficient and that we must do these things to complete Christ’s work. It’s your prerogative to make such a claim, but I cannot refrain from proclaiming the Jesus Christ Who IS mighty to save because He is God, He died on the cross for my sins, and rose again that I might overcome death. I don’t need to learn secret anything because my God does not work in the dark. He brings all His work into the light. This idea of being worthy enough based on ones’ obedience is not found in the Bible. Holiness is the work of the Holy Spirit; it is not anything that we can achieve in and of ourselves.
Nelson, translation and interpretation are not the same thing. With regard to your 8th AOF, if the LDS Church truly adhered to it, the KJV would not be the official translation of the Church. BTW, the JS Translation is a misnomer. It would be correct to call it an addition; it’s not even an interpretation.
Nelson, I have a good Mormon friend who I have gotten in many theological discussions with. One time after a lengthy discussion, she drove home and realized that I believed she was going to hell. She felt very hurt and asked her husband, “how could Megan be my friend and not think I am going to heaven?” She knew I was her friend and of course I love her. Her husband said, “Maybe you could look at it as Megan caring about you and being worried about you.” Keep in mind, they are devout LDS, but I was impressed that her husband thought of it that way instead of being offended. Last time we got together she asked, “So don’t you think I’m a good person?” I laughed and said, “Of course I think you’re a good person!” Now she gets it that I don’t believe being “good” is good enough. In fact, one of the things that the Enemy uses is to convince us that we can be good enough and earn our way to heaven (CK from your perspective). That’s why, even though Mormons go to the temple to honor God, their work there could be seen as a tool of the devil, because they believe their temple work gives them merit to enter the CK. You believe in grace plus works. I believe in grace only to make me right with God. The good works I do are an expression and manifestation of the Holy Spirit living within me. But they don’t get me to heaven. There are many differences between Mormonism and Christianity (yes, I know you believe you have the true Christianity), but the differences that tend to get us hot and bothered are the nature of God and the whole grace plus works thing.
I had a really good read of the verse used above and something hit me about it – Eph 5:11-14 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, ‘Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.
What does the second sentence say? “For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret” What is being done in this video? It’s discussing things that you purport the LDS do in secret. According to this verse, the video is shameful and so to are all who talk about the temple ceremony.
Yes the first part says to expose the “unfruitful works of darkness”, but when put in with the second sentence, to me, it means that you should say the temple is a work of darkness, but not to pull out the transcript and go through it with people. So you expose the temple and thus what is done inside as being “unfruitful works of darkness” but you do not speak/discuss the “things that they do in secret” inside the temple.
Nelson,
First off, I do not hate you, but have you read in the Bible that their are false teachers dressed in sheeps clothing trying to kill us? What about the false prophets, or Gal 1:8-9 speaking about a different gospel. You in fact have a different Gospel.
Then you say you feel a spirit of contention from us believers, let me remind you that at the very beginning of this topic, the so called fluffy bunny LDS member said Aarons wife was/is a prostitute and then apologized but the said I am dumber that a bag of hammers, I see An LDS member having a spirit of contention.
Then I see no evidence of this Mormon Cop out of the Spirit of contention issue in the Bible, other wise Jesus had the Spirit of contention when he made a whip of Cords, spoke of Hell, called people Child of the Devil, said to his own followers Fools and slow of heart. Rick b
Ralph,
First off, you never should me the verse about God creating a new veil, then when I said the veil was torn in two, God tore it in two at the death of Jesus on the cross. God tore it in two because we do not need the temple or need to pass through the veil.
DoF said
Please give me chapter and verse, if I recal correctly, God did not command a temple to be built, it was David who wanted to build one, and God said no, Davids son would, then the glory departed the temple, so it was nothing more than an empty temple. Rick b
RickB,
We find the reason why David wanted to build a temple/house in 2 Sam 7:1-7 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the Lord had given him rest round about from all his enemies; That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains. And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the Lord is with thee. And it came to pass that night, that the word of the Lord came unto Nathan, saying, Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the Lord, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle
Note the bold – it says that God has not lived in a house SINCE Israel left Egypt, but used the tent/tabernacle. This implies that there was a house for God while the Israelites were in Egypt, and possibly before then.
The reason David was not allowed to build the temple/house of God was given in 1 Kings 5:3-5 Thou knowest how that David my father could not build an house unto the name of the Lord his God for the wars which were about him on every side, until the Lord put them under the soles of his feet. But now the Lord my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent. And, behold, I purpose to build an house unto the name of the Lord my God, as the Lord spake unto David my father, saying, Thy son, whom I will set upon thy throne in thy room, he shall build an house unto my name.
David was a king of war, but God promised Solomon would build the temple. If God did not want the temple built then why promise David that Solomon would build it? Why does God imply that He had a house in Egypt?
Ralph, in the larger context of Ephesians 5 it is clear that Paul was mainly dealing with sexual immorality. It would indeed be inappropriate to outline, in detail, what the sexually immoral do. Thus, the degree of articulation should be chosen with discernment and caution.
That said, I take it from Paul’s inspired writing that, as a godly principle, we ought to expose the “works of darkness”, which are inherently shameful and embarrassing, but not articulate that exposure in a way that would cause people to be tempted with filthy imagery in their minds. Rather, we should shed as much appropriate light as will help bring appropriate conviction (not temptation). Jesus, for example, exposed and indeed “spoke of” the Samaritan woman’s multiple “husbands”, but he didn’t go into detail. Paul “spoke of” the sexual immorality of a person in 1 Corinthians 5:1, but didn’t “speak of” the matter with unneeded detail: “It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife.”
There is nothing sexual in the temple ceremony that warrants a lack of specific articulation, but there indeed are “works of darkness” which need exposure and visibility to the world. Given the specific nature of Mormonism’s ritualistic secrecy and the power of that secrecy over other people, it is exactly the kind of thing that warrants detailed exposure.
After negatively exposing the works of darkness, Christians are to positively shine forth the sufficiency of Christ’s priestly work. The gospel of Jesus Christ shines forth over and against the darkness of the Mormon temple, and the darkness flees.
Nelson, you have it all backwards. I do try to follow the commandments of Christ because I love Him. I am not saved because of my works, I am saved in spite of my works. Mormonism relies in large part of the personal worthiness of the individual, rather than the worthiness of Christ alone. On this comment: “I prayed to God, not your God, not the Mormon God, just God, and felt a joy in my heart when I chose to stay in this church.”
What about those who pray and get a different answer? It can’t be both true and not true. I spent many years as a mormon and can tell you that life did not become more peaceful or easy when I came to Christ, but it is infinitely more satisfying to place my trust entirely in Him. No amount of argument can change your mind, in John 10 we read that those who are not His sheep do not believe because they don’t hear His voice.
Jackg,
If you want to get into exegesis, have at it. I would love to go back to the Hebrew text and, let’s say, start with Genesis and the word Elohim (plural). Although I try to be a diligent student, I don’t pretend to be a scholar. I do try to operate within the confines of revelation (recognizing that the Holy Ghost is the teacher, not my interpretation of words trying to convey meanings). Just because we worship in temples doesn’t mean we don’t believe “The centralization of worship is in our hearts”. You are saying it must be either/or, but, in fact, it is both. Temples are about ordinances. Some Christians still believe in ordinances, like baptism. I am curious where Jack stands on this. If you do not please explain how you can reconcile with the entire New Testament. I’ll pick just one 1 Peter 3:21
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto EVEN BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: If this is an empty ordinance, then how can Peter claim it has any saving power? Because, Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith and He dictates the conditions of Salvation. Luke 6:46 ¶ And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and DOETH them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
I don’t see how the Savior can be any more clear. If the Lord commands, I do it (at least I try). I am not working my way to God (please stop with the works thing…as if Mormons don’t believe in grace…it’s just rhetoric). The bottom line is we believe in obeying the Lawgiver. He sets the conditions of Salvation and wise men DOETH them.
Ralph, there was obviously a command and need for a temple under the Old Covenant administration. No one is arguing that. What you are missing is that there is no need for a a tempple since the Incarnation, Crucifixion and Resurrection. What was the purpose of the temple? Sacrifice for sins. What was accomplished on the cross for believers? A complete, perfect sacrifice for sins. There is no need for a temple because there is no need for atonement for additional sins. When I recall what we did in the mormon temple is D.C. and then read the Old Testament stories of the temple ceremonies, there is nothing that is even similar. It may be called a temple but it is not in any way similar to the temple of the Old Testament, a temple that we no longer have any need for.
Arthur,
Very good. You nailed it. Our Mormon friends are stuck trying to justify Joseph Smith’s religious entreprenurism and the explanations show a distinct misunderstanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the fullfillment of the OT prophecies. When He said “It is finished” it was FINISHED. He paid the price for sin. The Jews had one day where the high priest would go into the temple and offer a sacrifice for the sins of the Jewish people.
Chirst is our high priest. He offered the perfect sacrifice. It’s over. There’s no need for a priest and no need for rituals. It’s a new covenant of grace. Jesus fullfilled the law.
Mormons have it wrong starting with who Jesus is and they carry that misunderstanding through to the significance of what He did. Even a cursory examination of the historical record will tell Mormons, again (I’m getting tired of this), First century Christians did not wear sacred underware with Masonic symbols on it, dress-up in costumes and go to a temple and perform Masonic rituals and see dead people through a veil or any where else for that matter.
Joseph Smith was a spiritualist and an occultist who wraped some elements of the Bible into folk magic practices which were popular with some people of his era. Mormons have been deceived. There’s no salvation in Mormonism. Just a form of “religion”, loosely speaking.
GOOD MORNING ONE AND ALL (EVENING FOR THE AUSSIES)
start with RALPH: as I read your post, I feel sad (really) for LDS apologists, you guys get to try and defend the whackiest positions. Ralph, you do a much better job than most, I do NOT envy your task. You are squeezing the word “SINCE” to death. “I haven’t eaten since morning” does imply I ate morning last. “I haven’t gone to the beach since moving to Perth” says NOTHING about whether or not I’ve been to the beach prior to my move. You are (understandably) leaning on option number one. Forgive my ignorance, but what is the LDS position reg. how far back the temple and endowment thing goes back? Back to Egypt? Back to Adam? NO one knows? Just curious. While I’m on the Egyptian channel: the rulers of the Nile allowing Israel to build their temple would be like Jim Crow plantation owner letting the Negroes build their cathedral on plantation property, using Jim’s dollar and materials. Yeah, right……Ralph, is this really what you are selling? This reminds me of John Candy selling shower rings as ancient Egyptian (weird coincidence) nose rings in “Planes Trains and Automobiles”. And how do you explain the total silence around these Egyptian temples: consider that the temple is to showcase GOD’S glory. Are these even more ‘precious parts’ that have been removed from the scripture by the early church ? Believe it if you want, Ralph, but when you strain credulity with this kind of thing, let me tell you charitably: you are marching confidently forward into quicksand. DOF: you have a laundry list of tough questions to answer about the temple and you launch into BAPTISM like a turtle into his shell. Come on, the truth is on your side: answer some of the questions. Start with mine because I’m not as patient as my christian brothers here at MC. GERMIT
Defender,
Your response is typical. Your ordinances add to the Work of Christ in order for a person to enter God’s presence. If you were to say that you go to a temple to worship God because it allows for a peaceful milieu, then okay, that’s fine. But when it becomes a place where the Work of Christ is embellished and completed by human effort, then there’s a problem. As for baptism, it is not regenerative. Some Christians believe it is. Both sides of the table can pull up scripture to back their positions. But, now we’re getting away from the topic of the Work and Person of Jesus Christ and His atonement for us that brings us into God’s presence. How do we get there? You believe it’s through a series of secret handshakes, etc, and that the “endowment” you receive at the temple is all this “stuff” that adds to Christ. Why is it so hard to accept the fact that Jesus Christ alone saves you, and that the only thing you could ever merit for yourself is death. The law kills, but the grace of God through Jesus Christ saves. The LDS doctrine contradicts this simple and beautiful message and creates a movement of works-righteousness. You can go ahead and think that all this “stuff” you do is saving you, but in the end, only the blood of Jesus saves anyone.
you’re not answering my questions.
Nelson,
I know your not talking to me, but could you be more spefic? who’s not answering your questions, and maybe re ask them to refresh those of us like me as to what these questions are. rick b
Quick question for the LDS.
Do the LDS believe that Temples will exist in the new heavens and earth, or in the next life? Rick b
Jackg,
The mantra on this blog is to ignore basic gospel principles in exchange for rhetoric. It is not adding to the Work of Christ to obey his commands. “Why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say…” How will Jesus save you and me if we deliberately disregard his commands on the grounds that we thought his grace would be sufficient. His grace his contigent on obeying Him. Otherwise why give the command? Maybe I should ignore the command to “go ye into all the world…”, or “love thy neighbor” since they are only “embellishments”. When the Savior asks and then commands “What manner of men ought ye to be, verily I say unto you (that is a command) even as I am.” do you just brush that aside? If a so-called Christian does this you say “It is because he loves the Savior” and if a Mormon does so “it is because he is trying to work his way to heaven”.
Germit,
Why would you expect me to discuss the temple (a house of ordinances) when you refuse to acknowledge the need for any ordinances (despite the fact that they are specfically commanded throughout the entire old and new testament). I bring up baptism because modern Chrisitianity is completely split on the issue and doesn’t know what to do with it. Why is the Christian world divided on the need for something as fundamentally Jesus as baptism? Because there is no certitude without revelation. The blood of Jesus will not save you if you ignore his commandments…’not everyone that sayeth unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom, but he that DOETH the will of my Father’, and that is as Biblical as it gets.
Falcon,
Are you the holder of some unknown 1st century documents revealing Christian clothing, what did they wear? Sources please…or was this personal revelation. Old Testament prophets wore very peculiar attire but I’m sure they were either “sinners” or “deceived” right?
Jackg,
Haven’t heard back on the exegisis comment. I did have a funny dream about it. Can you imagine Paul’s defense before King Agrippa if King Agrippa asks for his defense and he were to say “Well let’s pull out the OT text and take apart a few words. I will show you their real original meaning. We will discuss these over the next few years and I am sure you will come to know that my message is true” Jesus didn’t say, “Yes Peter you have dug deep into our Hebrew background, your study has been tremendous and that is how you know I am the Christ.” No, “flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” This is intrinsically non-Biblical. The prophets teach by testimony. Show me, just one, that has ever taken your approach. I am not trying to be condescending but testimony and revelation is the pattern of prophetic teaching, on that the Bible is clear.
RickB,
Not much is said about temples in the Celestial Kingdom that I know of, but from what I have been taught I do not think that there will be any there. I believe this because the temple is here to allow us to receive the necessary physical ordinances while in the mortal life. We do teach that the temples will still be on this earth and in operation during the millennium even while people are being resurrected. This will allow the temple work of everybody who ever lived to be done and up to date before the day of final judgment.
Germit,
In answer to your question the LDS website says ”Whenever the Lord has had a people on the earth who will obey his word, they have been commanded to build temples in which the ordinances of the gospel and other spiritual manifestations that pertain to exaltation and eternal life may be administered. In cases of extreme poverty or emergency, these ordinances may sometimes be done on a mountaintop (see D&C 124: 37-55). This may be the case with Mount Sinai and the Mount of Transfiguration. The tabernacle erected by Moses was a type of portable temple, since the Israelites were travelling in the wilderness.
Aaron,
So let me get this straight – the scripture you quote is discussing sexual sins but you believe that you can use it for almost anything else. But you also believe that if it’s sexual sins then the last part about not speaking about it is to be adhered to, but if it’s something else then you can just disregard the scripture? So you can chop and choose – is that right? Isn’t that what you are telling us LDS to stop doing? Aren’t you telling us to look at and use the scriptures in their entirety?
Defender (Footdoc):
Once again, you’re asking for sources and answers to questions when you don’t return the same courtesy of others who ask the same of you. I answered your questions regarding Acts 3 & 20. My follow-up questions you never answered along with many others that have been asked of you by me and others. What is your answer? The usual: silence or change subject. You ask for sources. I give them to you. The last time I did you disappeared for a month and then came back on here under a new name. Now you are “Defender”. Good deal. Now it’s time for you to defend your faith, the Mormon religion. Christians on here defend Christianity because we have to because of what Joseph Smith said in JS History 1:19.
The topic here is temples and your belief that in the Mormon way of thinking they are relevant today along with the ordinances that you partake in. Joseph Smith said in JS History 1:19 that the Christian church is all corrupt and all wrong. Mormonism claims to be restored Christianity. That means the burden of proof is on you to defend what you practice in the temples since Mormonism claims to be restored Christianity. Mormons despereately want the title of “Christian”. If that’s the case, then make your case and prove it right down to the secret handshakes in your validation from the Bible.
We, all Christians on here, are ready for you to teach us in the Bible where all the things that the Mormons do in the temple right down to the clothing with Masonic symbols on them comes from the Bible. We want sources and documentation from scripture both in the Old & New Testament. Make your case and explain that the Old Testament prophets right on up to Jesus and the apostles engaged in what Mormons do in the temples today. Validate from church historical writings from the early church fathers (start with Polycarp; he was the disciple of John. John’s still alive, remember? So Polycarp should have known) prior to 2 AD if you can’t prove it from the Bible.
Defender (Footdoc):
The Book of Mormon in the introduction states that it is “the fulness of the everlasting gosplel…the most correct of any book on earth…and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
With that said, if you can’t give me the sources from the Old & New Testament to validate Mormon temple ordinances that are conducted today, then please teach us Christians on this blog from the BOM where these ordinances are mentioned. Jesus came to the America’s and established His church here with priesthood authority. Surely the Nephites were doing temple work just like the Mormons are today, right? Defender, defend your positions on temples from “the most correct book on earth” because I want to get closer to God. Teach us and open our eyes to the restored gospel.
You said, “Temples are about ordinances.” Really?Why don’t you baptize new converts in the temple? Why is the temple only for baptism for the dead? Christians can get baptized anywhere: lake, pond, church baptismal tank, river, etc. When you answer my question about John 2:19-21 I will be ready to move on to your question regarding 1 Peter 3:21 and help you understand that along with other texts that you have given your opinion on.
I gues in the end I don’t have to accept your statements because they are only opinions and not authoritative at the time you say it. I also will pick and choose the things that you say that I want to accept. Sound familiar? I sound like a Mormon rather than a Christian.
Nelson:
Glad you decided to stick around. We don’t hate you. I love the Mormon people. What I don’t like are the teachings of Mormonism. That is why I am here on this blog. I am here to defend the truth of the Bible since Joseph Smith gave me no choice in JS History 1:19. I will not sacrifice truth for the sake of harmony. I warn you and engage Mormons for the sake of truth. Not doing so is not the loving thing to do (Ezekial 3:18-19).
Ralph,
When Jesus said “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”, was he only referring to Roman taxes, since that was the specific context which occasioned his statement? When an author uses a particular occasion to teach a general principle, are you going to reject the principle, demanding that the author use merely the language of abstraction? That would be a Pharisaical way to “disregard the scripture”.
I once heard an audio tape on the Dead Sea Scrolls, where a Mormon speaker insisted that numerous word for word duplications of today’s temple ceremony was found there.
It was clear also, from his research, that the Dead Sea Scrolls considered the ceremony to be sacred.
If we were to prove that sacred text from the first few centuries after Christ clearly and adequately describes the temple ceremony Mormons use today, wouldn’t that make this discussion rather useless?
And if the Dead Sea Scrolls could actually accomplish this feat, why is no one here looking it up? Come on, are we still looking for truth or not?
A good place to begin is:
James L. Carroll “Egyptian Craft Guild Initiations,” in Studia Antiqua, The Journal of the Student Society for Ancient Studies, 2006. DOC
Jeff Lindsay’s Freemasonry FAQ
a Hebrew and Greek translation of the Bible. I have found many references to the Endowment in the Bible, however much of it is obscured by the current translation.
“Temples of the Ancient World” ed. Donald Parry, published by FARMS and Deseret Book.
The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, Apocalyptic Literature & Testaments. . . 2 volumes, Edited by James H. Charlesworth, published by Doubleday.
“Duncan’s Ritual of Freemasonry” by Malcolm C. Duncan, and published by the David McKay Company, New York.
The Gnostic Books of Jew, and Pistis Sophia.
The Nag Hammadi library (I recommend the English translation by HarperSan Fransisco, A division of the HarperCollins Publishers, James M. Robinson, General Editor. Copyright 1988.)
Almost anything written about or by the Gnostics (an apostate early Christian Group, who, fortunately, kept much of the Temple Endowment).
“The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated (The Qumran Texts in English)” translated by Wilfred G.E. Watson, published by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Almost anything written by Dr. Hugh W. Nibley, but especially “Temple and Cosmos” and “Mormonism and Early Christianity”.
“My Father’s House (Temple Worship and Symbolism in the New Testament)” by Richard Neitzel Holzapfel and David Rolph Seely, published by Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah. Copyright 1994.
GRCluff,
Just like Defender, name your sources with exact documentation. It goes both ways. The Dead Sea Scrolls are devastating to the Mormon agenda for several reasons. We, Christians, have even more original manuscripts to draw from for comparison in proper translation. What do the Mormons have for their writings? Nothing! The angel took back the golden plates so you have nothing to compare the BOM with for original manuscripts. Christianity has thousands of manuscripts going all the way back. We have 50 manuscripts in the original languages going back to the 1st century. What do the Mormons have? Again, nothing.
You want to see the scrolls? Get on a plane and fly to the Holy Land and look at the book of Isaiah under thick glass that is heavily guarded in Jerusalem. Then fly to Dublin, Ireland and look at some more original manuscripts at Trinity College. Then fly to England and go to Cambridge and look at some more manuscripts.
Why doesn’t the First Presidency go over there and look at the original manuscripts in the original languages and translate the Bible correctly since the LDS Church say it’s not (article #8)? Isn’t the prophet’s title “seer” and “translator”? He should be able to do it. Fact is, he nor the others in Salt Lake know how.
The burden of proof is on the Mormons to validate their temple claims along with anything else. Don’t wait on the General Authorities to make the trip over there. Fly over there and prove it to yourself and then report back to us here on what you find out from the Scrolls. Bible scholars from around the world have and Mormonism is not supported by anybody worth their salt as a theologian trained in the original languages. The truth is there. What are you waiting for? Don’t say “If”, do it and prove to the world your claims from history and from the scrolls containing the words of Almighty God.