Joseph is pleading the cause of the Saints in the courts above?

MRM received the following e-mail from a Mormon on March 27:


I must comment on a little section quoted regarding the poem / hymn “The Seer, Joseph The Seer” by John Taylor. Your written word states :

The portion quoted by Hinckley is rather innocuous compared to some of the other lines. For instance, in the first stanza we find:

“His equal now cannot be found, By searching the wide world around. With Gods he soared in the realms of day, And men he taught the heavenly way.”

Another stanza states:

“The saints, the saints, his only pride! For them he lived, for them he died! Their joys were his, their sorrows too, He loved the saints, he loved Nauvoo. Unchanged in death, with a Savior’s love, He pleads their cause in the courts above.”

Reading this, I must simply state Brother John Taylor hit the nail on the head. Indeed the equal of Joseph the Seer cannot be found searching the world around and indeed with Gods (yes plural) he soared the realms of day. And finally I must add how un offended I am at the concept of the prophet pleading the cause of the Saints in the courts above. Otherwise thanks for publishing this poem / hymn written to honor the greatest man (with the exception of Jesus only) to have walked this earth. As you are fortunate enough to be so proximate to the headquarters of the restored Church of Jesus Christ – perhaps you should avail yourselves the opportunity to feel the Spirit of God and let it witness to you of the prophetic calling of Joseph the Seer.



Bold emphasis is mine. This e-mail evokes a lot of emotions in me. The Holy Spirit in me aches over this kind of thing.

Just give me Jesus.

Start at 17m 55s.

This song gives me heart and body a shiver of awe. Take all my idols away, Jesus.

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136 Responses to Joseph is pleading the cause of the Saints in the courts above?

  1. Ralph says:


    As a missionary I answered all questions put to me truthfully about the LDS church. I had an investigator once who borrowed some books from the library after the first lesson, and had questions from them like do we believe that we can become like God; What goes on inside the temple; etc. When my companion and I answered these questions truthfully she stated that she can accept that we believe it but she couldn’t at that time. She was baptised a while later, even knowing the truth.

    As far as DNA evidence goes, if you wish to use it then you cannot believe in the Bible. So you are shooting yourself in the foot making comments like that. Also, the Bible is not fully supported archeologically or historically. Yes there are some cities/geographics and events that do match up with what is known, but the same goes with Forrest Gump. Then there are some events and places that either cannot be verified or according to evidence have been proven not to have occured. So how do you know without a doubt, despite this evidence that the Bible is true? How do you know that all these things happened despite evidence against some of them? I agree that there is more evidence substantiating the Bible vs the BoM, but it is not cut and dried proving the Bible is true – as many think it is just a good story or myth. Why are you against the norm? And just to keep the going standards on this site you cannot use the Spirit as a witness nor testimony.

  2. ambassador25 says:


    I am curious as to what you feel regarding the DNA evidence is an absolute joke? One of the scientist who originally discovered this issue I believe is Simon Southerton, who is an Australian and former member of the LDS church. He still blogs quite regularly on this topic responding to challenges and answering questions. What in his work or others in your own words is the central flaw in his claim?

    Regarding the Pearl of Great Price, I assume you are referring the challenges regarding the Book of Abraham. Since we now actually have the facsimiles and can now translate them, what in the interpretation of the data is misleading?

    In each of these issues why should someone accept your conclusion rather than the arguments each of the videos you mention put forth?

  3. Olsen Jim says:


    So you are telling me that Lucifer entices people to love and serve Jesus Christ, love and serve their fellow men, forsake worldly lusts and passions for God, repent of their sins, and accept Jesus Christ into their lives as the only Savior of the world?

    Ok. Makes perfect sense!

  4. setfree says:

    Olsen Jim,

    No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that you guys call up Lucifer in the temple.

    How many “religious” people did Jesus rebuke? Going around pretending that you are good, trying to be better, does not make you saved. It doesn’t mean you serve or love the real Jesus. Check out Matt 7:21-23. Jesus knows His sheep. Lucifer, on the other hand, mixes truth and lies. Hence you have “the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” praying to and covenanting with Lucifer in their temples.

    Are any of you going to deny that you call up Lucifer? or is it just fine with you?

    I cited Matt 5:33-37 and James 5:12 to protest your gut-cutting, throat-slitting need for secrecy in the temple ceremony. That, plus your agreeing that if you don’t keep all of the covenants you make in the temple, you are under Lucifer’s power.

    It is in keeping with all of Mormonism that you all think you are keeping those covenants. I’ll bet you:
    “sacrifice all that you possess, even your own life if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God”;
    “avoid all lightmindedness, loud laughter, evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed, the taking of the name of God in vain, and EVERY other unholy and impure practice”;
    “consecrate yourselves, your time, talents and EVERYTHING which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.”
    You better be doing all those things, or you, by covenant made in the temple, are under Lucifer’s power!

  5. GRCluff says:

    Martin_from_Brisbane said:
    In any case, what happened to Jesus’ promise that the “gates of hell shall not prevail against [His church]“? Have Christians apostised?

    Perhaps my Mormon interpretation of that verse can help some.

    Speaking of the Church:

    Eph 2:11 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone

    Why a foundation of apostles and prophets? Because they are the people authorized to receive revelation for the Church. The apostles are the ones delegated in fact to speak for the Lord. The ONLY way he can be the cornerstone is through communication with those on earth.. It is revelation FROM Christ through the Holy Spirit that can establish a solid foundation for true doctrines.

    Now I use your verse to add clarity:

    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Now Christ extends the same foundation to the whole Church. That foundation was apostles and prophets, was it not? Peters was one of the apostles, and about to become the next prophet of the Church was he not? It is the same foundation; revelation.
    Here is how it works:

    1. Peter specifically, and the prophet (which Peter was) and apostles in general have the proper priesthood authority. The Catholic Church has that part right.

    2. The best evidence of proper priesthood authority is ongoing revelation. The prophet speaks with God (the cornerstone) to learn his will directly. The Catholics lost that when they lost the priesthood authority.

    My interpretation would be:

    On this rock, the rock of revelation, I will build my Church. As long as revelation and priesthood authority is on the earth, the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.

    When ongoing revelation ended, the proper priesthood authority was revoked. The foundation was lost and we got our first Pope.

  6. GRCluff,

    Thanks for responding to my earlier post, but it seems you’re sliding away from the focus of my objections.

    The Great Apostasy theory asserts that there was NOTHING left on earth to witness to the Gospel. This theory serves one purpose and one purpose only, that is to rubbish the existing Church and the Bible, and to place the Chosen Prophet in the position of holding the franchise to the “true” Gospel. Moslems look to Muhammad, LDS look to Joseph Smith Jnr (a very poor choice), JW’s look to Charles Russell, and so on.

    We could get entangled in the locus for the Gospel – is it in scripture or in the Church? Personally, I think it is in both, but they need each other for the Gospel to come alive.

    Historically, the scripture has been with us from the beginning, else we would not have it now. If you’re concerned about public access, why not look to the work of Wycliffe and Luther, for example, in translating it into common european languages? But no! Even with English and German texts commonly available (and promoted by the existing church), the Gospel still can’t be found on earth and it has to be “restored” in 1830.

    I note your interpretation concerning “proper priesthood”. I don’t agree with it, but even if you were right, you contend that Christ could not even keep His own ordained priesthood going for more than a few generations. He’s obviously not that good at being a good shepherd (John 10:14), who should have been with us until the end of the age (Matt 28:20).

    In the end, the Great Apostasy theory denies the witness of the Bible and of the (orthodox) Church. However, both have been present somewhere on the earth since the beginning of Christianity. They were not “driven from the earth”. If they weren’t around in 19th Century North America, Joseph Smith would not have even heard of them.

    The only way you can subscribe to the theory is to assert that the “true” Gospel cannot be found in either the Bible or the orthodox Church.

  7. Andy Watson says:


    I know it’s tough being a Mormon on this blog. However, you need to calm down and stay focused on what the topic of this thread is all about. I say that to the Christians on here too. We are talking about the individual, personal relationship that Christians have with Jesus that has nothing to do with Joseph Smith. I have given you references from LDS authorities and from LDS scriptures that conflict with this topic. By engaging in “spiritual bumper cars” and going on to other subjects (the authority of the Bible, other books, etc.) is revealing and evident to me that you are not willing to deal with it.

    Your problem with us praying to Jesus is not with me. It’s with the Book of Mormon where the Nephites did pray to Jesus in 3 Nephi 19:18. Jesus was supposedly there and He did not rebuke them for doing it. You have to square that up with modern day LDS revelation that says now you should NOT pray to Jesus (I gave you the reference). In Acts 7:59 Stephen prays to Jesus. I want you to tell me why McConkie said what he did in that quote above warning Mormons about having an improper relationship with Christ.

    Second, I don’t worship Paul. I don’t know where you get your information. You keep talking like this and I will not engage you in conversation because we are on the fringe of lunacy with these goofy remarks.

    Third, this topic is not about the authority of the Bible. I have done extensive research on the origins and authority of the Bible and you have no clue what you are talking about. Time and space here will not allow me to properly refute your talking points about the Bible and this is not the thread topic. I will look forward to this discussion. Meanwhile, if the 14 books you mentioned is the Apocrypha, I urge you to acquaint yourself with D&C 91. Next, my LDS KJV Bible has 39 OT books and 27 NT books. How many does yours have? If it’s 66 books, then your problem is with LDS leadership that doesn’t include them in the LDS standard works.

  8. jeffrey b says:

    Yes Jim, please look a little deeper into the “eyes of faith” or “second-sight” things falcon mentioned about the 11 witnesses.. You are in for a surprise..

    In your mockery of what you think is Christianity, you mention that God made the earth some 3,000 years ago but what was he doing before then.. Well my friend, you have a tiny image of God in your head. I don’t know about your sinner man who became a God, but my God created time. To Him, is there even time?

    You see, this is why God is mysterious to Christians because our view of him is greater than that Mormons have. In their attempt to “provide all the answers” as they like to say they do (you know the whole Truth Restored campaign), they have trivialized the Supreme Creator..

    Now to be cliche.. My God can beat up your god.. There wouldn’t even be a fight because a god has to exist in order to show up to a fight.

  9. FIGJAM says:


    That woman did not have knowledge of the true Gospel of Christ, the only word of god – THE BIBLE. Nor, did I at the time of my conversion. That is why we both fell for the “church’s” lies and deceit. So please, save me the rhetorical jargon. Everything you say minimizes your existing credibility and wit.

    And, what do you mean, I cannot use the DNA argument? I don’t have to deal with living a lie, you do. Your talking thousands of years vs. less than 2 centuries. The problem with Mormonism is that your leadership was idiotic and wrote down every false teaching and prophecy to date. And, “shooting myself in the foot…” I hope you are joking. You believe in a papyri that has been disproven. You believe in “reformed egyptian” – a language that never existed (only in the feeble mind of its creator), and believe in civilaztions that are absent and have never been on this planet. “Some events and locations that don’t match up?” How about none. Your leadership and “scholars” can’t even agree on where the Hill of Cumorah actual was (read your history). I’m sure you’ve read the Smithsonian statement regarding your faith, read it again! Forrest Gump … wow, you cannot be sane. You may as well believe in scientology is you believe in the LDS church. Both you and Jim are brainwashed. You should start your own compound like Warren Jeffs and practice what the early leaders preached.

    And, don’t be so condescending. It sounds pathetic … “And just to keep the going standards on this site you cannot use the Spirit as a witness nor testimony.” Grow up. Obviously you “burning of the bosom” is dubious. I’m sitting here out of mormonism, and you still in a neo-pagan cult.

    Doesn’t take much to open your eyes. You and Jim both beat around the bush like all LDS members and so-called scholars.

  10. falcon says:

    I hope you stick around and don’t get burned out interacting with our Mormon friends here. Andy is right when he talks about playing spiritual bumber cars with Mormons. They bang around desparately looking for anything that might score some points but their basic game is to deflect, minimize or jump to another topic. Our buddy Ralph usually tries to find something in the Bible to criticize thinking that that will prove that the Mormon church is true.
    Andy is right also in talking about how Mormonism down grades Jesus and they also do the same with the Bible. This is pretty typical of cults and aberrent religious sects. It’s the only way for them to try and make it; that is, telling people that everything that came before them is false, but now they have uncovered the secret information/revelation that is the new truth. These new truths generally reveal a different God, a different scripture and a different plan of salvation. Now what entity could possible have an interest in doing something like that.
    Mormonism is so obviously a product of the occult, but the members buy it thinking they’re having real spiritual experiences and that they are personal super duper spiritual people. And this idea that they are so moral? The enemy couldn’t possibly be the author of their illusion, falls flat due to the fact that we know that the enemy disguises himself as an angel of light.
    Mormons have no idea of what it means to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. In Mormonism Jesus is reduced to a kind of super hero status. In Christianity Jesus is God, not “a god” as the Mormons and their Jehovah Witness brothers claim. Jesus, being the qualified Savior; the One, eternal, everlasting, unchanging God, gave Himself for us that we might escape the penalty of our sin. Through God’s grace and mercy we are declared righteous, not on the basis of any works we might do, but based on what God did for us at the Cross. Praise be His name.

  11. Andy, Jeffry B and FIGJAM,

    Thanks for your forthright views.

    As to Joseph Smith (potentially) pleading my cause, I really doubt he would know who to plead to. I mean, does he plead to the Heavenly Father, or to Jesus, or even to god’s “Heavenly Father”, who judged our “Heavenly Father” before he became a god? Which of these judges do you appeal to? Seems like poor Joseph will be running around the byzantine bureaucracy of heaven, trying to find somewhere to lodge his petition.

    I’m reminded of that line from the original Batman movie; “Some days, you just can’t get rid of a bomb”.

    Seriously, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2:5). LDS have no right to put Joseph Smith where Jesus should be.

  12. Ralph says:


    The human race has been mortal for roughly 6000 years since the fall of Adam and Eve. Regardless of whether you believe that they had children before the fall or not, that is when the human race started dying. Science shows that fossil evidence points to humans being around and dying tens of thousands of years ago – outside of the timeline of the Bible. Australian aboriginals were living and dying in Australia as early as 40,000 years ago according to science. The DNA evidence indicates that the last major mutation in mitochondrial DNA occurred over 15,000 years ago. If you believe that Adam and Eve could not have children before the fall, then this places the mutation outside of the Bible times. The last major somatic mutations that are usually used to distinguish races occurred earlier than that.Since there was a bottleneck at the time of Noah, how could all of these mutatins come about if the science says it was over 10,000 years ago? If you want the articles/references I will dig them out for you.

    As far as archaeology, The Israelites played a major part in Egypt, but there is only one reference to a group of people called Israelites is on one tomb saying they were a small hill dwelling tribe which were totally wiped out by the Egyptian army. I can go on with a few more similar things which contradict the Bible. So the question remains – how do you believe in the Bible with scientific and archaeological evidence that contradicts it? Then you have the answer as to how I can beleive in the Bible and BoM, etc.

  13. shematwater says:

    The absolute stupidity of people frequently astounds me.

    I also have to wonder how there can be so much hatred on the part of those who were once LDS. You can try to cover it in a nice shell of “I am worried for all of you” but your words do not show worry. It is vile hatred and a determination to destroy what you hate. There is no other motivation that can prompt such language in man.

    A few comments: FALCON really has no sense of truth if he can actually believe what he says about spiritual sight. Think of all the visions recorded in the Bible. Think of how they are described. They are physically exausting, and one must have their entire physical nature changed in order to endure them. What do you think it means to be transfigured? Also, along this topic, only three of the eleven had a vision. If you actually knew the history of the church and cercomstances of these witnesses you would know that the eight were simply shown the plates by Joseph Smith. There no use of “spiritual sight” or other methods. It was simply a “show and tell” kind of situation.

    To Andy: The original article was concerning the honor the LDS give to Joseph Smith. It had nothing to do with Christian’s relationship with Christ, but with the LDS relationship with Joseph Smith. However, at this point I don’t really think it matters.
    As to 3 Nephi 19: 18, you should read all the scriptures (especially an entire story) before you try and interpret its meaning. In verse 22 of the same chapter Christ, in Pray to God, says “Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in ame; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.” So we see that when Christ is present, when he is physically with us we pray to him, for he is our Lord and our God. However, when he is not here we pray to the Father in his Name. No problem in doctrine and no contradiction.

  14. falcon says:

    Andy hit it the nail on the head when he talked about playing “Mormon bumper cars” with our LDS friends.
    We can get off on DNA, and Joseph Smith’s rendetion of Mormon wives gone wild, and the obvious occult connection with Mormonism, but to the true believers in Smith’s fantasy, there are explanations for all of it…..and the explanations don’t even have to make sense. They’ll even say, “Yea, I know all of that and it doesn’t affect my testimony.” Pretty tough to deal with the cultic mind-set.
    I officiated a funeral this week (yes the falcon does those things) and the tough part for me was that there were real doubts regarding the person’s status before the Lord. If I were doing the Mormon gospel it wouldn’t be that big of a deal because the only people not getting into some level of Mormon heaven are apostate Mormons. But the Bible teaches us that there are no second chances. There has to be a lot of denial going on to spin (Romans 5:17,18) to say something other than what it clearly states.
    Yes, we are lost without Christ. In Mormonism, Jesus isn’t really that big a deal. In fact in Mormonism Jesus wouldn’t have had to die. Because in that system (1) it’s possible to achieve personal righteousness a part from Jesus and (2) everybody who ever lived (excluding Mormon apostates) is getting into one of the levels of everlasting bliss.
    What a lie Mormonism is and the destruction of the souls of so many that results in their following the deception of Joseph Smith. It’s all about Jesus and Mormons don’t even need Him. No wonder the emphasis in Mormonism is on Joseph Smith. He put himself, in the minds of Mormons, as the guy who’s going to give them the green light into the Celestial Kingdom.
    Mormonism isn’t Christianity and Mormons aren’t going to be saved on the recommendation of Joseph Smith. What a cruel hoax!

  15. mobaby says:

    I came across something interesting the day after I read Olsen Jim’s comment above:

    “Yet guys worship Paul. You choose the words of Paul time and time again over those of Christ.”

    I was listening to a radio program on the Muslim view of Jesus. To my amazement, I learned that there are Muslim books and teachings that basically use the same argument as Olsen Jim. Basically the Muslim argument is “Do you follow Jesus or do you follow Paul?” as if the two were separate and exclusive of one another. There is even a Muslim book with that as the central theme that Muslims use when trying to persuade Christians. Apparently Muslims believe that the great apostasy started immediately with Paul. That was not the only parallel that became clear to me as I listened to the program.

  16. falcon says:

    Very interesting post. Paul makes some rather extraordinary statements in Galatians. In (Galatians 1:11,12) he says that he received the Gospel through a revelation of Jesus Christ. So much like the other apostles, Paul knew what the Gospel was and who Jesus was because Jesus revealed it to them. In (Galatians 2:1,2) Paul talks about how he went to Jerusalem to submit the Gospel of Jesus Christ to those in authority. Of course it was the same Gospel of Jesus Christ and the one that has been passed down to us through the Church.
    I like what Paul says in (Galatians 1:15) where he says that he had been set apart, even from his mother’s womb and was called by God’s grace. Finally in (Galatians 2:20) Paul identifies totally with Jesus saying he’d been “crucified” with him. This is something Mormons will never understand because they don’t know who God is or what He has done for us. As long as Mormons reduce God to a glorified man, they will have nothing but a version of themselves to relate to.
    Jesus is indeed the Alpha and Omega. He is the beginning and end. Everything in the Gospel is focused on Jesus and His redemtive work.
    Eternity is a long time to spend without Jesus. Jesus revealed Himself to me in a personal way and continues to do so today. If someone doesn’t get it right about Jesus, all the seeming “spiritual” experiences in the world will have no ultimate value.

  17. FIGJAM says:

    Again, the rhetoric. May I ask, why do you assume to know my personal beliefs? Oh, that’s right, your LDS folk tend to do that. Forgot, my bad. Also, why are you playing Mr. Archaeologist? I simply made the reference to the Bible and the Book of Mormon, not Adam, Eve, Humanoids, Cave Men and Dinosaurs … (exaggeration intended) It was a simple comparison.

    EVERYTHING THAT IS IN THE BOOK OF MORMON CANNOT BE VALIDATED – LINGUISTICALLY, HISTORICALLY, OR ARCHEAOLOGICALLY SPEAKING. The Bible, though not in its entirety, CAN. The Bible is supported by such prestigious backings as the SMITHSONIAN. Who supports your fictional book outside of the church? That was my point, simple enough?

    How dare you ask me how I can believe in something when your belief is 100% fiction? It is obvious that intellect, truth, and passion continue to scare you. You pass the buck, all mormons do. You have no right to ask anyone about their beliefs when you yourself won’t even learn your own. Learn your doctrine and history, then you can talk about what other believe. If you really knew the truth, you wouldn’t be LDS. Period. So, enough of that.

    You should print these posts and put them in the foyer for tomorrow’s sacrament. I think your new nicknames would be “merry-go-round” and “hamster wheel”.

    Man, you really must like hearing yourself talk in your head. I’m sure it helps you convince yourself of your delusion. Again, to compare the Book of Mormon’s archaeology (or the lack thereof) to the bible is heresy. The Book of Mormon is a 19th century religious work of fiction. To put the two in the same breath is comparable to the way the LDS church minimizes Christ and his atonement. I won’t even go any further with that. I’m sure the biblical Christians here would do justice to cure my angst.

    Make sure you get those electrolytes running on that hamster wheel. Contact me when you’re “completely out of sin”, cool? I’ll repost soon, “after all that I can do…”

  18. Ralph says:


    Either you don’t know/understand what LDS believe or you are purposefully misrepresenting us. Without Jesus and His atonement everyone would be going to hell. A perfect lesson on the atonement is found in 2 Nephi 9. Jesus defeated Death and Hell – being physical death and spiritual death. If He did not do both but just one, then no one would escape hell. But since He died and was resurrected and he atoned for our sins He overcame both. This rescued all bar those who deny the HG from an eternity in hell. Which of the 3 degrees of glory we achieve ultimately come from our faith in Jesus and our obedience to His will.


    I see there is a lot of anger there. What did I do/say to you to deserve that? I never said I knew what you believed in, I just made a statement that regardless of whether you believe that Adam and Eve had children before the fall (like some on this site) or they didn’t (as LDS teach) the facts i was presenting will be the same. I never said that you believed in one or the other option. I was discussing Adam and Eve due to your question about DNA.

    As far as ‘merry-go-round’ and ‘hamster-wheel’ I get motion sickness so something better would be ‘treadmill’ so I am not actually moving. I got sick just from being in the rocking chair for 5 min once feeding my baby daugter – my wife never lets me forget that one.

  19. Andy Watson says:


    I don’t think you’re in a position to create an exemption to the clearly printed doctrine as stated in the church manual about NOT praying to Jesus. You’re statement of:

    “So we see that when Christ is present, when he is physically with us we pray to him, for he is our Lord and our God. However, when he is not here we pray to the Father in his Name.”

    I would appreciate it if you could reference that for me with an official statement from the First Presidency, a Conference Report or a Church institute manual. The Book of Mormon Student Manual Religion 121 and 122 skips over this verse in its commentary on the subject. The verse is very clear:

    “And behold, they began to pray and THEY DID PRAY UNTO JESUS, calling him their Lord and their God.”

    There are no footnotes on this verse at the bottom of the LDS Bible supporting your view. The Church is clear that any prayers to Jesus should not be done. That is a serious “red flag”! Yes, the rest of the chapter ironically reads like John 17. Why is that? It’s obvious to people like me, but the issue of KJV plagiarism and borrowed thoughts is another discussion.

    Lastly, the other topic of this thread had to do with Christians saying “Just give me Jesus”. That is the song on the video. We are talking about our relationship with Christ compared with the Mormons view of Jesus mixed with Joseph Smith. I want to know what McConkie meant in his statement warning Mormons against a close, personal, relationship with Christ. Be honest, it has to bother you that a Mormon apostle would say that, doesn’t it? If not, that is another “red flag”. Wake up!

  20. jackg says:


    You really ought to stop believing Mormon propaganda. I have already commented that the presuppositions that leads to the apostasy conspiracy are fallacious. You have to believe that God can’t preserve His Word. And, you have to believe that Jesus was unable to establish a Church that would last. If you want to believe such heresies, it is your prerogative, but to try and sell it as Gospel truth is criminal.


  21. falcon says:

    I was just drawing some conclusions regarding why Mormons wouldn’t need Jesus to die on the Cross. First of all the Mormon jesus is not a qualified Savior. He’s not a qualified Savior because He’s not God. He’s just one of a whole bunch of gods. In fact you think you are going to become a god. So why do you need Jesus? You could die for yourself. So in Mormon lore the Mormon jesus died to make it possible for you Mormons to work your way into the Mormon heaven and become gods, right?
    See Ralph it’s this Mormon deception regarding who Jesus is, what he really did on the Cross, and what your eternal destiny is without the real Jesus and the real end game after death. The distortion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached by Joseph Smith and reinforced by false Mormon prophets, will cost you everything Ralph. No godship for you, no goddess status for your wife, no planets, no minions to pray to you and adore you. Just an eternity separated from God because seeing you don’t see and hearing you don’t hear.

  22. FIGJAM says:

    you’re right. i am angry. that mormons like you, who won’t even research your own history, doctrine, revelations, and past teachings, continue to defend fiction. i’m also angry that your leadership still, despite knowing what the “prophets” of the past taught, openly support and defend this heretical religion – not fully disclosing the entire doctrine. i’m angry that the leadership support one researching and finding “truth”, but shun them after they have found absolute truth and say they have been “duped” by the adversary. i’m mad that your church blinds the eyes of children who are innocent, indoctrinating them for a life full of misery and ultimate doom. i’m mad that you support a faction that claims that every viewpoint other than your “church’s” is anti-mormon. when will you take ownership for your beliefs? how can you defend or explain what your leadership can taught and continues to conceal? your prophets are liars and blind the eyes of the innocent. i’ll leave you with this:

    When asked in a Time magazine interview if God the Father was once a man, President Gordon Hinckley said, “I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it…” (8/4/97, p. 56)

    A lie amongst many. Hinckley was a liar, Monson is a liar, and is no surprise and J. Smith was the biggest liar of them all (i.e., prophets to date). This teaching is paramount to your religion as it is necessary for men to become gods to fulfill the ongoing teaching on other worlds. “don’t know if we emphasize it…” c’mon. again wake-up. it is despicable. again, you aren’t dealing with the uneducated when it comes to your religion. so, maybe next time you shouldn’t be so naive to anger when the church ruins peoples lives and sends innocent and brain-washed souls to hell.

  23. Ralph says:


    Sorry about how you fell, but do you really think that Jesus wants you to feel and act the way you are towards those who have offended you?

    Like I said, there are evidences against the Bible which make many not want to believe in it, yet both you and I believe in it. Why? I don’t know about you but I do because I have received a witness of it. I also believe in the BoM because i have received a witness of it. If you have received a witness of the Bible, then you can understand how I can believe in the BoM because of a witness. you may not agree with it, but that is your decision not mine.

    And yes, I have researched about the LDS church. I have been to MRM, ULM, MOM, Ed Decker’s site, and many more. I have spent a couple of years going through these sites. I questioned what I believed in 11 years ago when my son died. Despite what these sites have said, I have chosen to stay in the LDS church. Again, that is my choice, not yours. So there is no need for you to get angry about my choices if I have done the research and decided what I believe is true.

  24. falcon says:

    Judging from what you have written in past posts, I would suggest that you stay in Mormonism because of family pressures. I can’t remember which of your close relationship are involved at the top of Mormon Ward politics, I believe you said two brothers-in-law, but given that, you’re not going anywhere. You’ll message the information you’ve discovered about Mormonism to make it fit no matter what. I’ve seen you do it on this blog Ralph. Bottom line, I believe you still have your doubts regarding whether or not the Mormon church is the “true” church, but you have way too much equity in the system to walk away.
    It’s what I’ve termed the Mormon “rich young ruler” syndrome. You remember when the rich young ruler came to Jesus and said “What do I have to do” and Jesus talked about extending love to everyone. The rich young ruler says I’ve done that. Jesus said “One more is required of you”. That one more thing was “give it all up and follow me”. The Bible tells us that the man walked away heart broken because he couldn’t give up that which he valued to follow Jesus.
    That’s the picture of Mormon men who have deep connections in the Morg to the point that everything they have is tied-up in it, including their families. These “rich young rulers” find convenient rationalizations and ways of continuing in the lie instead of giving-it-up and following the real Jesus.
    That’s what this thread has been all about; finding the real Jesus of the Bible, surrendering to Him, gaining salvation through his sacrifice, and living a life reflective of that faith. Just “any Jesus” will not do nor will using Christian lingo get it done.
    P.S. Pulling out the testimony and offended card on FIGJAM is tired old Mormon tactics Ralph. When the pressure is on, it’s the only place Mormons know where to go because Mormonism cannot hold up to the scrutiny that someone like FIGJAM, a former Mormon, have given it.

  25. Did Jesus and Paul preach two different Gospels? Short answer – no.

    Its an objection that has been raised against Christianity by Moslems, Jews and, now, by Mormons in the shape of Olsen Jim (“You choose the words of Paul time and time again over those of Christ”).

    Its not a bad question because, on first appearances it seems that Jesus spends his time talking about Kingdom and Paul spends his time talking about justification. Also, Jesus seems principally concerned with practical religion and Paul seems principally concerned with a person’s faith-position. Its taken me maybe 25 years to get a satisfactory answer since first being asked the question by a skeptical secular jewish woman on a kibbutz in Israel.

    To assert that Paul and Jesus invented two different Christianities is to fail to recognize their shared jewish heritage. The assertion also fails to comprehend what Jesus thought the Kingdom was, and what Paul thought you needed to be to be a part of the Kingdom. This is one area where the three most important aspects of exegesis are context, context and context.

    I’d like to elaborate, but, in brief, the objection arises from a second-hand knowledge of the Bible. Its rather like the common myth that the OT portrays a “smiting” God”, which the NT modifies into a “loving God”. Read further and you’ll see that the Jesus of the NT does just as much “smiting” as the God of the OT.

    I’m alarmed that LDS have such a superficial knowledge of scripture to use such an ill-founded objection against the Christians who actually believe it.

    One would think that if LDS truly believed that it is the word of God, as the Eighth Article of Faith says, they would do everything they could to defend and promote it. It seems that 8AOF is nothing more than a marketing con designed to get Christians interested in something that actually wants to be rid of the Bible at the earliest possible opportunity.

  26. falcon says:

    The more I thought about your “offended” comment to FIGJAM (as I was pounding out the miles on my bike early this morning), the more I became ah…..offended by them. FIGJAM is not “offended”. FIGJAM is angry. He’s angry because he was lied to, defrauded and as a result felt like a world class dupe.
    But this “offended” card is classic Mormon tactics. Implied in the remark is great sympathy for the “offended” party, giving the Mormon a point in the touchy feely column, while at the same time minimizing and mischaraterizing the person’s real legitimate claim.
    This is what FIGJAM needs to hear: “I get it. You were misled by a sin of ommision and the Mormon Church was wrong to do it. By withholding the truth from you, you were not allowed to make an informed decision. The Mormon Church needs to stop doing this. If I were in your shoes, I’d feel the same way.”
    There, see how easy that was. And nothing was said about the claims of Mormonism, but the focus was on the tactics. Mormons get a reputation for being dishonest and not being forthright for a reason. Unfortuately, it’s a well deserved reputation forged on the experiences of countless people.
    FIGJAM, I get it. I’ve read countless testimonies of exMos and they’re angry. The upside is they’re out of the Morg and eventually the anger subsides. I do admire your passion and ability to express yourself.

  27. Linda says:

    AMEN!!! AMEN!!! AMEN!!! Thank you Falcon! I love it when you guys articulate so well what I’ve been thinking and feeling. The sin of omission. Perfect.
    I have the Hill Cumorrah Festival coming up soon just a couple of miles from where I live. I plan to be out in full force telling people about those exact omissions.
    I was never even a member of LDS and I’m still very angry about the way they misled me. I’m more determined than ever to protect my community from this cult!

  28. shematwater says:

    To All Idiotic ex-Mormons and their supporters.

    To claim the church has in any way defrauded anyone is an outright lie and a twist of true facts.
    The church teaches the basics of the Gospel. That is the purpose of teh church. It is not ment to unfold the deeper mysteries. The mysteries of God are to be discovered by the individual. They are only to be discussed by the leaders of the church is some idiot tries to teach falsely concerning it. This has always been and will always be the way the church works, and it is well known to work in this way.
    So, when they do not discuss the mysteries of God it has nothing to do with not wanting you to know and understand them, but with wanting you to discover them on your own.

    As to President Hinkly’s comment, there was no lie in what he said. He did not say it was not true, he said we do not emphasize it, and that is true. This is part of those mysteries, and thus it is not discussed by the church as an organization, but by members as individuals.

    However, even with this knowledge of the way things are meant to work there are those who are stupid enough to charge the LDS for doing exactly what Paul did in teaching the gentiles churchs. Yes, we are all guilty of avoiding the truth and dishonesty when we follow his example of giving “milk before meat.” We are guilty of lying when teach “Line upon Line, and precept upon precept” as we are told by Isaish. We are manipulators and con-artists when we teach as Christ did, so that only those with true faith can understand our words (speaking of the prophets). When we do as the ancient prophets have done, and even Christ has done, we are vile sinners.

    I think FIGJAM and all the other ex-mormons who have been posting on this thread are a good example of why we teach this way. They obviously had weak faith, to be brought down but such trivial matters. We want their salvation, but by hearing that which they were not yet ready for they have lost that hope.

  29. shematwater says:


    You really do get how things actually work. Commands change to fit the circumstances in which we live. Noah was commanded to build an Ark, but we do not build such ships. From Adam to Christ men were commanded to sacrifice animals, but we no longer sacrifice them. From the time of Noah men were commanded to not eat of unclean animals, but how many Christians keep this law.

    While Christ is with us we pray to him. Thus if he was in the same room as I am in I will feel incline to worship and pray to Christ. However, if he appeared in Salt Lake City I would not, as I live in Missouri and thus he would not be with me.
    The church has given this command (to not pray to Christ) because it is understood that he will not minister to us in the Flesh until the second coming. Thus he will not be among us, thus we are not to worship him. In the Milenium we will worship Christ, as he will reign as King on this earth. Until then we are to pray to the Father.
    In the Book of Mormon they prayed to him because he was there, and because he was ministering to them for several days. If he had simply popped in for a few minutes, or even an hour or two, I don’t believe they would have prayed to him.

    My whole point is that you really do not have a very good understanding of LDS doctrine and all the intricate complexities that it contains, so you should not try and explain them. It only makes you look rediculous to those who actually understand the subject.
    Of course you will claim to understand the doctrine, and try to say that I do not, and everyone on these threads who are against the LDS church will agree with you, because if I am right then the whole argument falls, so I have to be wrong. It really doesn’t matter that I have been studying such things my entire life and have had some of the greatest instructors in the matter. All that matters is that you need some reason why the LDS church cannot be true.

  30. Andy Watson says:


    It’s hard to get through your posts and now take you seriously and consider you worth my time when I see the repeated words by you of those on here as “stupid”, “idiot”, “idiotic” and “rediculous” (by the way, it’s spelled “ridiculous”). You may have used the first three words for maybe others, but you saved “rediculous” for me and that’s fine. I would be inclined to say that I feel you are being “anti-Christian” since I am not using any of those terms directed at you. Anyway, I’m totally grown up with tough skin after being in ministry to the Mormons for a long time so “fire away” if you feel lead. However, realize that you are mocking and I feel the spirit of contention in your strong language directed in a personal way and that is condemned in the Book of Mormon in Alma 5:30-31 & 3 Nephi 11:29.

    I have also been educated in Mormon doctrines from the Mormons at their Gospel Doctrines and Gospel Essentials classes along with sitting in the priesthood meetings at the wards. I could give you more of my credentials when it comes to LDS education, but it’s not necessary and is a waste of time. You know nothing about me so be careful in making assumptions. I asked you to give me documentation for LDS sources that supports your view of when we do and do not pray to Christ now or in the Millennium and you gave me nothing but your opinion.

    I am still waiting from you or any Mormon to tell me what McConkie meant in his statement that I referenced above. The silence is deafening and revealing.

    In light of your view of not praying to Christ because He is not here (in the LDS view), how do you reconcile that with Matthew 18:20?

    Lastly, the reason I know the LDS Church is not true is because the Holy Ghost told me it wasn’t in accordance with Moroni 10:3-5 and the BoM Introduction. I’ve read the BoM more times than I’ve read the Bible. Each time the answer is the same: NO! Your “holy ghost” has told you “yes”. Both are not right. “Rediculous”?

  31. GRCluff says:

    Andy Watson said:
    Lastly, the reason I know the LDS Church is not true is because the Holy Ghost told me it wasn’t in accordance with Moroni 10:3-5 and the BoM Introduction.

    I’m curious, how exactly does that work? The verse you reference lists four pre-requisites for getting an answer:

    1. Real intent – you must be willing to join the church and serve in the church as necessary.
    2. Sincere heart – did you really want to know.
    3. Faith in Christ – had you repented of all your sins to show you faith in Christ?
    4. Humility – recognize your “real” position before God, you need for salvation etc.

    Everyone I have ever met that actually followed the right process and met all 4 pre-requisites got the same answer that I got.

    So, what did you do wrong to get a different answer?

    Our God is just, He will not give you a different answer than he gave to the rest of us – but he will require the same level of preperation in every case. Reading the BOM is not enough, you have to be ready in other areas of life as well.

  32. Andy Watson says:


    You seem to be “quick from the hip” on certain things that get your attention in posts. I addressed Shem’s statement with my answer, but I will not go off-topic any further. I am eager to answer all questions asked of me, but I would like my question answered FIRST about McConkie’s statement that is relevant to this topic of Christian’s “just give me Jesus” coupled with the LDS adding in Joseph Smith.

    Cluff, I’m aware of your LDS education and you seem to be the resident LDS scholar here so I guess I will now ask of you to answer and explain what McConkie meant (see the quote above in my earlier posts at the beginning). Why the warning to Mormons to NOT develop that personal relationship with Christ that is improper?

  33. GRCluff says:

    Andy asked:
    Why the warning to Mormons to NOT develop that personal relationship with Christ that is improper?

    It is simple enough from my perspective. Christ is not the Father of our spirits. Our Father gave us life, our brother did not. See Heb 12:9

    I guess that distinction is lost to people who believe that Christ and his father are one in substance. Personally, I can’t see any hint of sanity in Christ praying to himself in the NT.

    Christ was/is the creator of the world. He is Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament. He is the savior of mankind in that he has paid the price for our sins. We can still praise him, and give thanks for the great gifts he has given us.

    Still, I am sorry to say, he is not the Father of our spirits. We pray to a different entity entirely, and should focus on a relationship with that entity, instead.

  34. Linda says:

    Shem said: “So, when they do not discuss the mysteries of God it has nothing to do with not wanting you to know and understand them, but with wanting you to discover them on your own.”
    That is such garbage. When I met with missionaries (for four months!), they knew I had been raised attending church, that I have read the Bible from cover to cover, that I have a strong testimony and been witness to many miracles of answered prayer from God. Why would they not tell me that the Mormon god and jesus are different? Why would they want my money and my promise not to smoke or drink alcohol or have caffiene, and to admit JS is a prophet and be baptized? Every time you withhold that information and try to portray yourself as being Christian, you are lying! You are trained by your leaders exactly and specifically how to withhold information. We’re not idiots!! If in your eyes we’re not ready for LDS doctrine, maybe it’s because the real God is protecting us from it.

  35. FIGJAM says:

    Again, no one is getting mad for what any “chooses to believe”, I’m angry at the leadership and ALL LDS members who continue to mute real, controversial, Christ-based issues – especially when your doctrine is so fallacious. I also get mad when people like Jim say that every truth about mormonism is false, and wrought with error. It is absolutely dubious to say such a thing, when we all know mormonism wouldn’t even stand-up in a court of law.

    And, to the Biblical Christians on this board, thank you all for you convictions and truths, as well as the ability understanding my feelings. I admire each one of you.

    That being sai, let me just say to Ralph that I’m sorry for your lose, but I cannot believe with one ounce of my being that you read the history of the LDS and its doctrine and continued to be a member. Christ does not lie. There are no true gospels outside of Biblical Christianity, to say so would be like saying that our LORD and SAVIOR is unsufficient.

    So, what you are telling me is that Christ pointed you to the truth (reading from those sites, esp. those like and you denied him and continue to deny him today? There can be no other answer. The Bible is HIS WORD, not the BOM. My theory? Perhaps you cling to the belief that “family’s are forever?” And, perhaps you’re sealed to your son? Could that be the reason you will not let yourself take hold of biblical Christianity? Just a question I must consider.

    As far as the LDS gospel bearing witness (burning of the bosom), please read again: Jeremiah 17: 1-10

  36. FIGJAM says:

    and shem, your ignorance astounds me. among ex-mormons, those who know your “church” and its doctrine better than the majority, you continually discredit our wherewithal and intellect regarding your “idiotic” doctrine!? wow, you have some major flaws with this one. one, i used to defend the truthfulness of your “church”. two, the “church” is dubious, you know it. you send missionaries whom are ill-equipped and don’t realize or know the entire doctrine. it baffles me of how you convince yourself that your doctrine and church presentation to “non-believers” is not dubious. it takes a unique person to drink that kool-aid.

    okay shem. Jesus was a man that “worked” for his salvation. Mary was a virgin, but only because she was impregnated by a immortal being that came from his home planet of kolob (just as mortal beings are begotten by mortal man, right?) we cannot die in sin, right? adam is god – got it. polygamy is necessary for celestial glory (countless wives to beget spirit children). check.

    Not dubious? No lies? C’mon shem, you aren’t dealing with the naive on this board, nor the uneducated. Wake Up.

  37. setfree says:

    Micah 3:5 “Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.”

  38. falcon says:

    In addition to doing the obligatory “offended” routine to FIGJAM, Ralph also did the standard testimony tactic. Here’s the problem with the Mormon testimony. Mormons use it as a proof of what they believe as being true. I don’t doubt Ralph’s sincerity for a second, or that he believes what he believes is true, but I do not accept the testimony as a proof of the truth of what someone is testifying about, especially in this context. This is not like a court of law were a qualified witness gives testimony in their area of expertise (although Mormons treat it as such).
    I have a friend who over the years has lost three children and a future son-in-law to tragic accidents. The one son and the future son-in-law were killed in a car accident driving into town to get something the night before the wedding. I asked my friend how he and his wife where able to cope with all of these tragic losses. He said, “Without the Lord, we couldn’t have done it.”
    What this indicates to me is that he has a strong relationship with Jesus Christ and this sustained him and his wife, during these tragic occurances. It doesn’t prove that anything he believes is true. So the Mormons insistence that truth is proven because they believe something is true is not only illogical but it’s manipulative (whether it’s meant to be or not).
    I’m not addressing Ralph specifically here, but if a Mormon can testify to maintaining faith in Mormonism despite significant challenges and hardships in their lives, the implication to someone who dumps the program is that they are just simply not as strong.
    Overcoming a hardship or challenge, in any religion, can secure for someone higher status in the Community of Faith they belong to regardless of what that religion is. We admire over-comers and we should. But I’ve witnesses such a thing become manipulative also.
    Am I a hardened cynic. No not really. I’m fine with faith enhancing accounts of people who, facing challenges, persevered and triumpht over adversity

  39. GRCluff says:

    falcon said:
    So the Mormons insistence that truth is proven because they believe something is true is not only illogical but it’s manipulative (whether it’s meant to be or not).

    It’s not the belief itself that proves truth, but rather the witness of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost testifies of truth and cannot lie.

    You can continue to deny us that all you like. Call it something that is it not – anything – you will grasp at straws to explain it away.

    The fact remains. God, through the witness of the Holy Ghost continues to testify that Mormonism is the true gospel of Christ.

    Those darkened and hardened by rejection of that spirit will always be it’s most vocal and outspoken opponents.

    Welcome to Mormon Coffee. Welcome to all the lies and outlandish stories that they try to believe. They can even document them as their version of Mormon history. I’ve got news. Every since the start of the Church this kind of dualism has existed. It is one of the evidences of the true gospel. It is some of Satans best work.

  40. jackg says:


    You always talk about the witness of the Holy Spirit, but you fail to grasp the fact that the Holy Spirit will NEVER testify to something as truth if it contradicts God’s ALREADY established Word–which is the Bible, no matter how much you want to relegate it to a third-rate writing. You think that you are an authority just because you mention the witness of the Holy Spirit as more important than anything else. You fail to grasp the balance between God’s revealed Word (which was revealed through the Holy Spirit), and the witness to the Truth of God’s Word. The Holy Spirit illuminates Truth for us, Cluff. You want us to believe that the Spirit will bear witness that a false prophet was a prophet, and that the Bible has been so destroyed by evil men that it is no longer to be trusted. Let’s talk about these evil men, Cluff. Would evil men take out of the Bible a teaching that says we wil become gods, have lots of wives and lots of sex for eternity? You see, that argument makes no sense. But, you want us to believe you have some sort of authority by the deceitful rhetoric you regurgitate (you say nothing original, and is only the product of brainwashing tactics). I must speak against the heresies you spread. Too often, we as Christian get confused regarding tolerance and respecting another’s views when we should be boldly proclaiming the truth when that truth is being attacked by such heretical teachings as fathered by JS your leader. To claim that Christians fight against the false teachings of the LDS Church as evidence of the Church being true is a ridiculous statement.

    You’re stuck on this “twisting truth” crusade, yet follow the teachings of a man who twisted the truth so he could become a polygamist and fancy himself as a future god. Then you jump on the superiority horse and tell us we had weak faith. You have blind faith, shem, and your blind faith will lead you into an eternal existence outside the Presence of the Living God.

  41. Olsen Jim says:

    Latter-day Saints are sometimes criticized for not contending or arguing about the gospel. The vocal critics out there like to see this as weakness. It is not.

    Reality be known, it is most often the result of self-control. The glaring truth is that such critics have essentially no basis from which to argue. The situation is somewhat humorous, but not universally recognized.

    How many people in the world recognize or appreciate the fact that the United States could absolutely wipe out the majority of its enemies- at least the homelands of its enemies within minutes if it decided to use its full military might (nukes). But the U.S. exercises self-restraint and takes the higher ground.

    Similarly, evangelical critics of the LDS church do not recognize what a weak position they are coming from.

    They have a written document- the Bible. Period. It is of course a holy and beautiful book of scripture. But in reality, they are operating from a position that is 2,000 years removed from any revelation or authority. The argument that there was no apostasy is absolutely absurd and requires either complete historical ignorance or a refusal to see what is plainly there.

  42. Olsen Jim says:


    They have no connection to the ancient church- none. They are left arguing that there is really no need for a church. They are left arguing that there is no need for Priesthood authority- although that is an interesting basis on which to claim one has authoritative truth. They are left arguing that “God has done His work” and that there are no longer miracles in the revelatory sense.

    They are left arguing that even though they cannot agree on whether baptism is even required, they are of one faith and one baptism. They are left with no explanation with what happens to the majority of the people who have lived on the earth- those who have not had a real opportunity to understand Christ or even hear His name.

    Just as ancient apostates claimed to embrace the “prophets of old” while rejecting their own prophets or even Christ Himself, today’s critics categorically dismiss those authorized and sent by the Lord.

    It is sad that so many scramble for crumbs on the floor when the most beautiful and delicious feast of eternal truth is so freely available.

    But God will force no man to heaven.

  43. FIGJAM says:

    again, typical mormon rhetoric. why can’t you just see the truth at hand? your supposed authority is a joke. need some tangible evidence, send me your email and i’ll send you the fallacies (.pdf) of your “authority”, which (BTW) doesn’t exist. so freely available? you’re right, but is not eternal truth. it is FICTION! how can you trust a man who put his head into a hat to translate the word of god? how can you dispute the inaccuracies and 9 different, documented accounts of the first vision? how can you ignore the facts about “reformed egyptian” and the papyri (B of Abraham) that has been disproved by scholars as it was blatantly contrived? how can you not believe the findings of DNA? how can you ignore geographical errors and the lack of archaeological evidence? how can you agree with the adam-god doctrine and that adam lived in N. America? how can you believe in adam ondi-ohman? how can you stand by your prophets that have ascertained that the lds “church” does not worship the Jesus of the bible? how can you continue to believe in a work which contradicts the bible and can be dismissed by the bible as false doctrine? how can you stand behind the teaching that Elohim and Jesus are separate entities when your own founding prophet said that Elohim is Jesus (history of the church 5:127)? and finally, GALATIANS 1: 5-9

    riddle me that before you spout anymore deceit and indoctrinated unintellectual jargon

  44. jeffrey b says:

    Olsen Jim,

    It’s like Mormons get high off of thinking they have some exclusivity and power that they don’t really have..

    “They are left arguing that there is really no need for a church.”

    Where in God’s word does it say people need a building filled with an organization of men making up their own rules/ordinances to inherit eternal life? All I notice is how many times it speaks of the sacrifice of my Lord and Savior to gift me God’s mercy and Grace.

    Terribly sad that you guys have been duped into thinking you have to have “more” than Jesus Christ. The most pointed to and central theme of the Bible and you guys glaze over it because you are blinded by the lies of the man you “praise”.

    What authority do I have? I have none, your right.. but guess what Jimmy boy? The Almighty God has the only authority and he will choose to use me, his servant, as he sees fit, to bless the lives of others and bring people to know Jesus Christ.

    You don’t have any super priesthood powers my friend, sorry, I know you like to think your one of the elite.. The best I can offer to the sick is my prayers and a petition to God and He will do, in his infinite wisdom, what he desires.

    I will take the Gospel of Christ found in the Bible over you arsenic filled “delicious feast of eternal truth” any day.. Thanks for inviting me though.

  45. Ralph says:

    Falcon and Figjam,

    You know nothing about me, yet you seem to think that you can make statements about my thoughts and actions with authority that you have the correct knowledge. My knowledge of the LDS church being true came about in 2 main ways. The first I rarely speak about and it is not really for anyone to hear about – but all I will say is that I was not always a ‘good’ LDS boy. This does not mean that I got into sex, drug, and violence – but being of inquisitive mind I investigated a few things I should not have. It was through those experiences I learned that the LDS church was true. My spiritual confirmation of it came a few years later. When I lost my son, I questioned all that I believed in to decide if I really believed in it or not. I questioned if I truely believed in God, but I never questioned is God real, and so on about the LDS faith. I researched many sites, but nothing swayed me because of my experiences NOT because I wanted to believe in a forever family. And no I am not staying in the LDS church out of fear, nor my brothers-in-law. Yes they are my bishop and stake president at this point in time, but in another 2 or 3 years they will not be, and for the many years prior to 2 years ago they were not.


    On the day of pentacost the believers were gatheres together with the 12 apostles who had the proper authority presiding over the meeting. There is one instance in the Bible of authority presiding over a meeting. All through the NT the apostles had the final authority of what the believers believed in, hence we have the NT which consist of the writings of these authorities dispelling the false teachings in the church. Where is that authority now? Where are the ones that God has appointed to help all come to a unity of faith and dispell the wrong teachings like the apostles who wrote the NT?

  46. FIGJAM says:


    i never said i claimed to “know” you. just was a question/personal opinion.

    nevertheless, it is father’s day. i don’t know if you have any other children, but i sincerely wanted to wish you a happy father’s day, today. i am terrible sorry for your loss and despite me not knowing if you have other children or not, you will always be a father to the child you lost. i wish you a wonderful day and blessings be upon you.

  47. Ralph wrote ” we have the NT which consist of the writings of these authorities dispelling the false teachings in the church. Where is that authority now? ”

    Its still there, in the Bible that they wrote. When someone comes along contradicting that authority we have every right to say “you don’t come to us in the name of the Apostles”. We have this authority to act in the Apostles’ names because we are upholding what the Apostles lived and died for. If I picked up a gun and fought off some terrorist who was attacking Australian shores and Australian people, you wouldn’t object by saying “but you’re not properly enlisted”.

    FWIW, I’d agree that Falcon and FIGJAM might have got offside with their comments on your personal experiences, and I salute you for not inappropriately capitalizing on your personal tragedies (at least, not on this blog as far as I recall). However, I can understand their frustration – how can you possibly give yourself to a bloke who invented a religion in order to get into the sack with about 30 wives, 9 of whom had living husbands? How can you believe this consummate liar?

    Joseph Smith is not your friend. He is not pleading your cause in heaven; Jesus is, but you’re ignoring his calls to come away from this wicked man. “Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?” (2 Cor 6:14).

  48. falcon says:

    You need to read more carefully. I commented on what you offered and specifically said I was not applying my comments to you when I wasn’t. I also used the life story of a friend to illustrate my point about testimonies reflecting the “truth”.

    To All,
    The point of my comments regarding a testimony being the proof of the truth of something is that something may be a truthful reality to someone but that does not make it “the truth”. Our Mormon friends speak of a reality of having the witness of the Holy Ghost. I know that they don’t acknowledge the Father, Jesus and Holy Ghost of the Bible so what am I to conclude regarding the truthfullness of the Mormon testimony? Jesus said that the Spirit of truth will lead us into all truth. Mormons deny that Spirit and choose another gospel, another father, another jesus, another spirit, and another plan of salvation. So what are we to conclude regarding the truth of what they testify to?
    Add to this the occult connection of Mormonism and the spirit that led Joseph Smith, the Christian’s decision to pass on Smith’s revelation is a wise choice. Mormons have been seduced into thinking that a certain “feeling” or “impression” is God speaking confirmation to them. Again, Mormons have identified their god and it isn’t the God which we Christians acknowledge. So we wisely conclude that the spirit of Mormonism is a false spirit and what Mormons are testifying to is false.
    Life stories that are used to build people’s faith are valuable only if that faith is rooted in the truth. The Mormon testimony, heartfelt and honest to that person, does not reflect the truth of the Gospel revealed in the Bible. It’s reflective of a personal reality bound by a false spirit.

  49. GRCluff says:


    1. The Holy Ghost never contradicts the Bible, where it is translated correctly, and where it is interpreted correctly. You can use the Holy Ghost to witness what parts are true, and what each verse really means, etc.

    The Holy Ghost will always contradict the Nicean creed and all the rest of the non-Biblical garbage that mainstream christianity trys to sell as truth.

    2. I continue to mention the Holy Ghost because the power of the Holy Ghost is the foundation of my belief stucture. 1 Cor 2:1-5

    3. I really think polygamy was more about posterity in this life than sex for eterities. Get your mind out of the gutter man.

    4. I really don’t think I am brainwashed. I am a very independent thinker. I just happened to have my prayers answered about Joseph Smith, and I correctly recognised the witness of the Holy Ghost in that respect. I hope some day you have the same enlighening experience.

  50. falcon says:

    There you go again, off on one of your Mormon fantasy tangents; long on Mormon rhetoric and slogans, short on historical fact and reality. I would suggest you spend some time studying the history of the first 400 years of the Church first hand and quit repeating what the Mormon church feeds you. The thinking of the Church Fathers is all documented and available. You need to do some independent study. I’m sorry but you don’t write in a manner that expresses the thought processes of an independent thinker.
    This is what I hope for you. Since you appear to have a desire for God, I pray He will lead you to Himself. You mention the Holy Ghost, but you don’t know the Holy Ghost. Joseph Smith, was an occultist who denied the God of the Bible for a spiritual entity that led him away from the truth.
    You’ve got to get out of those Mormon training briches you’re wearing and get some big boy pants.

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