MRM received the following e-mail from a Mormon on March 27:
Greetings
I must comment on a little section quoted regarding the poem / hymn “The Seer, Joseph The Seer” by John Taylor. Your written word states :
The portion quoted by Hinckley is rather innocuous compared to some of the other lines. For instance, in the first stanza we find:
“His equal now cannot be found, By searching the wide world around. With Gods he soared in the realms of day, And men he taught the heavenly way.”
Another stanza states:
“The saints, the saints, his only pride! For them he lived, for them he died! Their joys were his, their sorrows too, He loved the saints, he loved Nauvoo. Unchanged in death, with a Savior’s love, He pleads their cause in the courts above.”
Reading this, I must simply state Brother John Taylor hit the nail on the head. Indeed the equal of Joseph the Seer cannot be found searching the world around and indeed with Gods (yes plural) he soared the realms of day. And finally I must add how un offended I am at the concept of the prophet pleading the cause of the Saints in the courts above. Otherwise thanks for publishing this poem / hymn written to honor the greatest man (with the exception of Jesus only) to have walked this earth. As you are fortunate enough to be so proximate to the headquarters of the restored Church of Jesus Christ – perhaps you should avail yourselves the opportunity to feel the Spirit of God and let it witness to you of the prophetic calling of Joseph the Seer.
Sincerely,
Tim
Bold emphasis is mine. This e-mail evokes a lot of emotions in me. The Holy Spirit in me aches over this kind of thing.
Just give me Jesus.
Start at 17m 55s.
This song gives me heart and body a shiver of awe. Take all my idols away, Jesus.
Aaron,
They know nothing of our Jesus.
I want to share an experience that may or may not be in line with this one, but it is fresh on my heart. I told a very old friend who has recently come back into acquaintance that I left the church and found Jesus. I described how I felt about Him. Her response was queasiness. That should say it all right there, shouldn’t it? Why would any member of a “Christian” denomination be shaken and hurt and “willing to walk away from you if you say anymore” by a pronouncement of love and adoration and complete security with our God. And yet, they are so very upset.
Yes indeed it all comes down to “who is Jesus”. The Mormons testify to Joseph Smith, while Christians, in their testimony, tesifiy to who Jesus is, how they came to meet Him, what He did for them in securing their salvation and about His continuing work of sanctification in their lives. It’s all about Jesus. Jesus is the manifestation of the eternal, everlasting and never changing God. He is the eternal God/man who gave Himself for our sins and when He declared on the cross “It is finished” was saying that “the debt is paid”.
Before we come to Jesus we are lost, totally lost, dead in our sin. But when we receive Him by faith we are born again to a new reality. God says that “our sins and lawless deeds He will remember no more”. The Bible tells us that “as far as the east is from the west, so shall our sins be removed from us”. And yes, “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us”. Dr. John Walvoord in “Jesus Christ Our Lord, p. 162 writes: “Christ in His death fully satisfied the demands of a righteous God for judgment upon sinners and, as their infinite sacrifice, provided a ground not only for the believers forgiveness, but for his justification and sanctification.” Romans 3:10-20 tells of our hopeless condition. But Ephesians 1:7 and Galatians 3:13 shows us God’s solution for our hopeless condition.
This is the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which was taught by the apostles to the Church and preserved, unchanged by the Holy Spirit.
Mormons have their own jesus. It is not the Jesus of the Bible. In fact we know that the god of Mormonism and the spirit of Mormonism are not the same God declared by the apostles to the Church. Here it is for Mormons, without the Jesus of the Bible their is no salvation only separation for eternity from God. “Know Jesus Know Peace. No Jesus No Peace”.
Thanks for this, Aaron. When a beloved aunt of mine died, this song, Give Me Jesus, was sung at her funeral. Jesus was all she cared about as she moved from this life into the next. What a contrast with Brigham Young who, as he approached death, reportedly cried out, “Joseph! Joseph! Joseph!”
I offer a heartfelt “Amen!” to Falcon’s post above, and add this: If Joseph Smith has the opportunity to “plead [anyone’s] cause in the courts above” his supplications will accomplish nothing. “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). “He is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:22, 25). “Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us” (Romans 8:34).
It is Jesus who lived and died (and lives again) for me. It is Jesus who pleads (intercedes) for me in the courts above. It is Jesus who is able to save me to the uttermost. Just give me Jesus.
Just give me Jesus. I reject his prophets and servants. But just give me Jesus.
My religion is a fairy tale. I worship a god who is a mist, or cloud, or spirit, or undefined consciousness, or something like that. He calls himself our father, but he isn’t really our father. He just uses that term to get our attention or manipulate us emotional folk.
My god has lived for eternity without a beginning. But just a few thousand years ago he made earth and people. What he was doing for the eons before this, I don’t know.
In my religion, god chooses some people whom he gives the ability to believe in him and Jesus. Those who say the words “I believe in Jesus” are saved in heaven from that very moment. There, they will sing to Jesus forever. All others will burn in a lake of lava and fire, whether they simply didn’t say those words, or if they never had the chance, doesn’t matter.
In my religion, we worship the bible- it is the final authority on every possible topic. It contains every word God has ever uttered. Jerusalem is mentioned in the Bible, and there is a Jerusalem today on the map, therefore everthing in the bible is true.
Those people who disagree with me on religion are categorically evil. I will take their idolatrous religions down. This is god’s work in the grand tradition of the crusades.
In Mormonism Jesus is seen as a kind of valiant older brother. He is that good example to be looked up to and admired. In Mormonism, Jesus is just one more son in a lineage of sons and daughters of the mother and father god who reside somewhere out there near the planet/star Kolob. As the Mormon male stirves in this world to do all he can do to achieve righteousness and godhood, the Mormon jesus stands ready to cover the unpaid balance of the righteous short fall. I don’t know why some Mormon hasn’t figured out that in the Mormon system they could just kick back knowing that the short-fall in their personal godmaker program will get covered anyway.
What an incredible loss Mormons suffer in number one, not really knowing who Jesus is in this world and number two suffering the loss of their salvation in their vain attempts to be something that doesn’t exist, that is become a god.
The number one focal point in Christianity and for Christians is Jesus. He is the physical manifestation of God. Mormons could never have the devotion and love for Jesus that Christians have because they have no idea who He is.
Only God can save. No creature possesses the ability or prerogative to save from sin. Salvation is the prerogative, privilege, and potential act of God alone. When we worship Jesus we are rightfully worshiping one whose deity finds its source or fount in the deity of the Father.
What a sad tragic end Mormons will have hoping that Joseph Smith will provide for them the means of entry into the presence of God. For Christians, all of our hope is in Jesus who will not disappoint.
blah, blah, blah … again, typical mormmon jargon. in essence, the old “burning of the bosom” to witness the truthfulness of this gospel and dispensation routine. i “stand amazed” that i could ever been part of such indoctrination and myth. just like my former mother in-law said when i told her about my choice to remove my name from church records. “you’ve been duped by the adversary”. i knew then, “through the burning in my bosom”, rocket science wasn’t needed to see that indoctrination and fantasy was needed to have such a “testimony”. why? well, much like the ancient practice of skull binding to elongate the skull in various ancient cultures, the LDS leadership binds and molds their “robot” flock, concealing and/or redirecting the origin of their Jesus, past “revelation” and teachings. i cannot believe that mormons continue to “bare witness” to their fallible heart amidst the information provided at mrm.org. has tim not even scratched his head once? oh, that’s right, it was just just dandruff…thank the mormon “jesus” for “no-head & just shoulders”. WAKE UP LDS MEMBERS.
Olsen Jim,
Very naughty boy coming here and trying to spoof and provoke those of us who are followers of Jesus. I don’t know what you’re so bitter about? Possibly you were offened by someone? You did an excellent job of mischaracterizing Christianity but if you’re a Mormon I can understand both the lack of depth of your thinking and your motivation. Thinking is hard work and it takes time. It’s much easier to skate on the surface and do a drive-by sniper routine. I believe it’s also called “hit and run”. Nice to have you here however. Please stay and post often. We have at least one Ph.D psychologist here that might be willing to help you find the root of your obvious discontent.
If Olsen Jim is a Mormon, I can see how easy it is to move from Mormon beliefs to atheism as apparently a lot of former Mormons do. The well has been poisoned by their former Mormon Church. They have grown disillusioned with the LDS obfuscations and deceptions,and yet retain the false ideas and distortions they have been fed about the true Christian faith.
God is faithful and just, and He DOES INDEED call his own unto himself. And the reaction we see from Olsen Jim has been answered in holy scripture: Romans 9:19 – 21
OK, I’m back. Got out late today on the bike. Usually I like to pound the back roads of west central Wisconsin early in the morning. I think I told some of you my bear story. Big black one a few weeks back standing right in the middle of the road staring at me. I scared him off. Today, a doe and two fawn or is it fawns?
Anyway, I’m churning away making the sprocket whirl and I’m thinking about Aaron’s post here and thinking, “Isn’t it amazing how invoking the name of Jesus can cause such a bitter hostile reaction on the part of those who don’t know Him?”
Eternal life as brought to us by God’s mercy and grace, received by faith in Jesus…..such talk does stir-up the enemy. Can’t you just hear the devil screaming, “I’ll put an end to this!” Poor devil, he was defeated at the Cross and now he’s just sputtering away trying to pick-off souls. He’ll do it either by seducing people into an immoral life style that will corrupt them and give them dull ears or he’ll introduce false religions and doctrines that lead people away from the Gospel to another gospel which Paul tells us is really no Gospel at all.
But I rejoice in the name of Jesus. The name above all names, precious redeemer, glorious Lord….glories; praise or honor offered in worship; cause for praise or renown; magnificence; heavenly bliss; rejoice proudly. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…there’s just something about that Name. Master, Savior, Jesus…like the fragrance after the rain…..Jesus, Jesus, Jesus..Let all heaven and earth proclaim…kings and kingdoms may all pass away, but there’s something about that name.
I’m happy!
Thanks Aaron for the song, because what Tim had to say makes me want to puck.
The comments of Olsen Jim give us insight into the Mormon mindset. They truly believe that to accept Jesus we need to accept prophets. They will take down the road of OT prophets and those who did not listen to them, and categorize Christians into that category. That’s why Olsen’s first line says what it says. The piece they don’t understand is that JS et al were not and are not prophets (this includes today’s first presidency and quorom of the twelve). In accepting the false prophets of Mormonism, they actually reject the OT prophets as well as the apostles from whom we have their writings as presented in the NT. Notice how Olsen tries to use Christian language regarding the Mormon god: “My god has lived for eternity without a beginning.” Right there is a misrepresentation of Mormon doctrine, which teaches that God is only eternal in the sense that we are eternal in their thinking. He states his god has no beginning, yet will also tell you that his god was a man as we are. Their convoluted perception and representation of what “eternity” and “without beginning” mean make it impossible for them to be reasoned with, as they operate from fallacious presuppositions to begin with. He even mocks the authority of the Word of God, which is a product of their 8th AOF. I disagree with him and, therefore, I am evil. If that isn’t a false syllogism, then I don’t know what is. These people need prayer and divine intervention in their lives. Olsen, it is all about Jesus. The road of JS ends in eternal destruction.
Peace and Grace!
I will just rely on Jesus Christ pleading my case before me. What good is it to have a sinner pleading before a holy God on my behalf? What is that they say about a man representing himself has a fool for a lawyer?
The response is interesting, and I would suggest hypocritical, considering the basis of this website and the normal direction of criticism.
I modeled the comments I spewed from the absolutism of Aaron and Falcon.
Can you see what it feels like to have somebody massacre your doctrine and beliefs? Feel good?
Jackg,
If you didn’t notice, I was actually parodying evangelical doctrine, not mormon. And it is more accurate than you may recognize. The fundamentals I mentioned are not far off- simply using the tactic so often employed here of assuming the worst at every point possible.
Falcon- interesting comment about the devil’s response- but don’t you mock and dismiss the same claim from LDS who say the devil fights again Christ’s restored kingdom? How are you any different.
Fascinating that you recognize the venom in a criticism of your religion, yet are completely blinded to the venom and nastiness of your consistent campaign against another. Can you say hypocrisy?
I do believe you are sincere about your religion. I just think it is a fairy tale- very mystical and superficial.
JIM
Jim,
If I may join in the middle of this? I agree that some of us who are ex-mormon (at least especially us) get angry about Mormonism because we remember what it was like to be there. It’s not that we’re right to be that way, another reason why we’re so glad to have an actively working Advocate in Jesus, and that we are SAVED BY GRACE.
I want to suggest, though, that attacking fundamental Christianity is attacking what the Bible actually says. I know I didn’t know what the Bible actually said when I was a Mormon, only what was told me that it said in certain verses (about which I scratched my head and said “wow, they must be holier than me to have gotten that out of it”). But the overall message of the Bible is that there are two covenants, the one where you work your way to God and never make it, and the one where you rely on Him to provide your righteousness, and rest in that peace. Even the Garden of Eden was a depiction of the two choices: and then Adam and Eve picked the knowledge of good and evil over LIFE. In another example, God has Moses put a snake on a pole to illustrate that Jesus would be made a curse on the cross for us, and if we would just look to Him, we would be saved. The examples are many, and all of them just give the one message. Jesus is the way.
Mormonism claims to believe the BIble (as far as it is translated correctly, which is just an excuse to pick and choose verses, in my experience). Why then, being a Bible believer, would a Mormon attack it’s central message? Simply put, because the Bible is anti-Mormon, and Mormonism is anti-Christ. Jesus said He would start His church and the gates of hell would not prevail. JS called Him a liar. And whether or not Mormons realize it, they are calling Jesus a liar too.
The above “[filtered profanity or slur}” was describing how the Bible refutes Mormonism. It does so by saying that the Law and Prophets are over, must give way to The Son (Matt 17:4-5). Jesus does so by saying to not make promises, but just say yes or no, any more than that comes of evil (Matt 5:33-37, James 5:12). It does so by saying that there is only ONE NAME whereby we will be saved (Acts 4:10-12). Jesus does so by refuting the need for secret ceremony (John 18:20). Jesus does so by refuting the need for temples (John 4:20-24). It does so by saying God is Spirit, and invisible (Jhn 4:24, Col 1:15, 1Ti 1:17).
So, why does the LDS church still claim the Bible? And if they’re going to keep doing it, why don’t they believe it?
Fundamental Bible believers actually believe the Bible. That’s where the big difference is between them, and the LDS.
It makes sense to me, but you are failing to fill in the gaps. The sequence goes:
1. God lives and he answers prayers.
2. Jesus is the Christ. He paid the price for my sins to make repentance possible.
3. Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration. He restored the priesthood authority to the earth.
4. The LDS Church is the kingdom of God on earth, and is directed by pure revelation today.
The Holy Ghost follows this path without exception. You can’t skip to #4 with stopping at #3, and you obviously shouldn’t get stalled at #2 – we all know what happens to those idiots.
Moving on to #3 as directed by the Holy Ghost IS something to sing about, don’t you agree? The damnation of centuries is opened up, a new dispensation has begun. No better cause to rejoice.
We filter the “anti-M…” word, so that is what is being filtered.
GRCluff,
Are you saying that you agree, Jesus lied?
setfree:
I am saying that the gift that Jesus gave, that of salvation, is greater than the gift that Joseph gave, that of restoration.
They are both good gifts- we should thank God and rejoice for every gift he gives.
and you believe that what Jesus claimed about there never needing to be a restoration was a lie…
@ setfree – well said. here’s one point that did convince me when speaking in similar terms (that Mormonism = the work of the anti-Christ). what did the devil/adversary/serpent promise EVE in return for betraying God’s command regarding the forbidden fruit? now, what does Mormonism promise those who “cling to the iron rod” and hold the “priesthood” today? interesting is it not? i scoff at the condescending blasphemy set forth by LDS members on this post.
And, Olsen Jim – being a former member of your belief, what you still call a religion stand firm and say, “you sir, obviously do not know LDS “church” origin or history.” to call TRUE Christianity superficial or mystical is heresy. you sit in your 500 thread count mormon ideals and mock Christ. was your “prophet”, your liar, that used car salesman not involved in the occult? did he not make a living as a “glass-looker” (aka, money-digger)? superficial you say? what could be more than to minimize the validity and worth of our TRUE savior and his gospel and to say that you can become a God who rules their own planet? … your blindness makes me sorry for you and for your continued snobbery on this forum.
FIGJAM,
As a former mormon I have found that to be the party line, telling us that we clearly don’t understand something about mormonism. many of us who have been saved out of mormonism know far more about the true history and teaching of mormonism now than we did will still drinking the kool-aid.
Arthur,
Extremely valid point. However, only being out of Mormonism for months now, it is extremely infuriating to see the indoctrinated labeling other sects, especially TRUE, TRADITIONAL Christianity as “mystical” or “superficial”. This, when the entire site (mrm.org) is nothing but true word dictated from the mouths of the Mormon “leadership”. I cannot proclaim innocence as far as judging other religions while an LDS member, however. But I can say that it was my awareness of the truth and legitimacy of this site (and many other publications) that helped me to get out of Mormonism. What you believe is not always truth. This is especially true of Mormonism.
It’s kind of a funny deal when you think about it; the only people who understand Mormonism are current active Mormons. So what’s with all you exMos out here? Did you all acquire amnesia when you bolted the Morg?
See the other funny thing is the only reasons people leave the Morg is that they were offended or are immoral. That’s rich! See there isn’t anyone who left who figured out that it’s all bogus and yet all of the exMo testimonies I read (and it is a hobby of mine) come to the conclusion that the whole Mormon program is a sham and they were conned. Poor Mormons they just can’t handle it-someone leaving, finding true faith in Christ-the exMos are happy-haven’t turned into dope smoking sex addicts.
So we know as per a recent thread that Mormonism has a different God, a different Jesus and a different Spirit and a plan of salvation that’s not anywhere near the Gospel message as presented in the Bible.
When we start talking about Jesus, these poor Mormons are totally clueless. They can’t relate to it. We love Jesus, worship Jesus, adore Jesus, sing praises to Jesus, testify to what Jesus is doing in our lives and He’s thee God. Eternal, unchanging, everlasting, the great I AM! No wonder they get all angry. It’s the spirit of the antiChrist that drives them and blinds them and will keep them from ever having a personal relationship with our Lord despite their attempts to highjack Christian sounding terms that are meant to deceive but have no power to save.
Thank you exMos. You make my day everytime you post. It keeps me coming back. For some reason, God through His grace pulled you out and saved you. I am very encouraged!
setfree:
Perhaps it was the apostle Paul who was lying in his letter to the Thessalonians:
2 Thes 2:2
…that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first…
What falling away was he speaking about?
Or Peter was lying when he spoke about the restitution of all things?
Acts 3:20
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
According to Webster, restitution means “restoration to the former or original state or position”
How could that happen if they were never lost?
Olsen,
I read your post on the other thread. After reading your opening post on this thread I see that you have come a long way in just two days from just being a lurker. I understand that you are probably angry about the other topic of Moroni getting struck by lightning and the apparent jokes being made about it here on this site. If I were a Mormon it would make me “hot” too. No, it’s not some supernatural sign from the heavens. If the real God out there wanted to give Mormons a message He would have brought fire down out of heaven and completely incinerated the Oquirrh Temple to ashes like He did the altar set up by Elijah in 1 Kings 18:38. He could do it, but He is longsuffering hoping that the Mormons will come to Him through His revealed Word that He has already given in the Bible. If God struck down what was offensive to Him today on the earth I would venture to guess that we would have a lot of fires and destruction going on especially right here in America.
I read in last week’s “Church News” about the LDS ward up in Massachusetts that burned down. The fire started in the attic while the people were in sacrament service. Nobody was hurt thank goodness and the fire alarms went off as they were supposed to. Was this a supernatural sign? I hardly doubt it – stuff happens. It’s no different than seeing all the Christian churches in the Southeast coastal areas that were demolished by hurricanes last year – stuff happens. Christian churches in hostile areas of the world are burned down everyday by religious exremists from Islam and Hinduism. God doesn’t have His angel from 2 Kings 19:35 wiping people out or standing guard to intervene. It’s all about divine providence and the New Covenant.
I will tell you that your post above came across to me as mocking. I’m sure you’re aware of what the Book of Mormon says about the subject of mockery in Alma 5:30-31. Also, I sensed the spirit of contention as well (3 Nephi 11:29) so we have some real problems here.
When our LDS friends speak about their love of the Savior I find it puzzling to me when I try to reconcile those words with those spoken by leaders in the Church and what I read in their manuals and scriptures. The Mormon “jesus” only fufilled part of what is expected or required for the LDS faithful in their attempts at the unbiblical approach toward eternal progression to godhood. Exaltation (temple ordinances, etc.) is all up to the Mormon. Their “christ” can’t help them with sealings, celestial marriage, endowments, home storage, Word of Wisdom, etc.
“When he (Jesus) became our Savior, he did his part to help us return to our heavenly home. It is now up to each of us to do our part and become worthy of exaltation.” (Gospel Principles, page 19)
If Mormons wanted to prove to me that they really love Jesus they could start by praying to Him. I won’t pray with LDS missionaries unless they agree to that. I pray and they don’t object. They won’t pray to Him which is revealing and concurs with this statement:
“We always pray to our Father in Heaven, and to him alone…We do not pray to the Savior or to anyone else. To do so would be disrespectful of Heavenly Father and an indication that we do not properly understand the relationship of the members of the Godhead.” (Missionary Preparation Student Manual Religion 130, page 40).
It was okay for the Nephites to pray to Christ in 3 Nephi 19:18, but not for Mormons today despite the BoM being “the most correct book on earth” and containing the “fulness of the everlasting gospel”. This should alarm Mormons today!
When it comes to offensive and mind-boggling LDS quotes it doesn’t get any better than former Mormon apostle and LDS authority Bruce McConkie. Consider his words on the subject of one having an intimate, close, personal and worshipful relationship with Christ:
“There are yet others who have an excessive zeal that causes them to go beyond the mark. Their desire for excellence is inordinate. In an effort to be truer than true they devote themselves to gaining a special, personal relationship with Christ that is both improper and perilous. (LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, “What is our relationship to members of the Godhead”, Church News, March 20, 1982, page 5)
Can you believe that statement? Unbelievable! Before our LDS bloggers throw McConkie “under the bus” they might want to consider what the LDS prophet Ezra Taft Benson said of McConkie:
“Thanks be to God that Elder McConkie’s written words of testimony remain to continue to bless a world that needs them so desperately. Often when a DOCTRINAL QUESTION came before the First Presidency and the Twelve, Elder McConkie was asked to quote the scripture or to comment on the matter. He provided the entire Church with an example of gospel scholarship.” (Ensign, June 1985).
The title of that article in the Ensign was “Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Preacher of Righteousness”. (This was written shortly after his death). That title “preacher of righteousness” is the same title given to Noah and Enoch by the Mormons in their manual “Pearl of Great Price Student Manual Religion 327” on page 26. McConkie was given a very high honor. He was called upon by the prophet to give him guidance on doctrinal issues. Can you believe that? Wow, that is amazing!
Well, my relationship with Christ would have McConkie upset. My reason for living, obeying and serving is because of Jesus Christ. He did for me what I could never do. I love Him! All praise, glory and honor is due my Redeemer – the blessed and holy Lamb of God!
Thank you Andy.
Once again you apply your volume of knowledge of Mormonism in a way that is understandable and pertinent.
Mormons have flipped the Gospel and the nature of Jesus in such a way that up is down and down is up. This is fairly typical of aberrent and hertical groups and most certainly characteristics of cults who use the Christian vocabulary but change the meanings of the words. It’s this “Jesus died for you, now you have to do the rest to become a god” idea that is so offensive. To these groups the true meaning of the Cross of Christ is offensive, so we see the disconnect with Mormonism and Biblical, orthodox Christianity.
Having a personal relationship with the eternal, everlasting and unchangable God of the universe is a foreign concept to Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, I might add. In Mormonism Jesus is the valiant older brother, with the JWs he’s a sort of super angel. Neither of these Jesus’ can provide for eternal life because they are not God.
This is the part of the Gospel that these groups just cannot bring themselves to understand. That is that the God of the universe loved us so much that while we were still sinners, He died for us. He took our place. He paid the price.
Knowing this, born again Christians can see through the spirit of the antiChrist and stand firm against the schemes of the evil one. That scheme, when it comes to Mormonism, is to currupt the Gospel message and keep folks practicing a form of piety but never realizing salvation in Christ.
I say it often here, but I’m still amazed to hear the stories of our exMo posters and how they came to Christ. I still think often about Arthur Sido’s words that he “went down on his kness a Mormon and when he got up, he was a Christian”. It reminds me of the blind man Jesus healed who’s total theology amounted to, “I was blind and now I see”. Simple, powerful, true and miraculous what God does through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Praise be to His Name.
GRCluff quoted 2 Thess 2:3 and Acts 3:21, presumably to support the “Great Apostasy” theory (the time when the Gospel was literally driven from the earth until Joseph Smith restored it).
My reading of Acts 3:21 is that the “time…for God to restore everything” (NIV) refers to the parousia of Christ, or the second coming. There’s no Joseph Smith in this passage. Anyway it’s Jesus the Messiah who does the restoring, not one of His proxies.
In 2 Thess I see Paul reassuring the Thessalonians not to be surprised at false teachers who misrepresent the Apostle’s teaching. Thing is, we know what the Apostles taught because their teaching is what the Bible is made out of. The ex-Mos can tell you who is doing the misrepresenting of the Gospel today.
So was there a Great Apostasy? One big problem I have with the North American theories is their myopic preoccupation with North America.
Let’s say there was a Great Apostasy, but it happened in central and eastern Asia. We could even fit it into some historical evidence by saying that God judged the Asian church by sending Kublai Khan to destroy it (I’ve heard that there was a sizable Christian community in central Asia and even in China up to the 14th Century). So, we could have a Great Apostasy that doesn’t need Joseph Smith to do a restoration job on it. Why assert that Paul was prophesying events in North America? Its just not a robust theory.
In any case, what happened to Jesus’ promise that the “gates of hell shall not prevail against [His church]”? Have Christians apostised? Yes, but not to the point at which God had no remnant to bear witness (see Rom 11:1-6).
As to the idea that the Gospel was driven from the earth (James E Talmadge, Articles of Faith – if memory serves me right). the Bible has always been with us. We may not always have listened to it, but if we had, we would have found the fullness of the Gospel in its pages.
Unless, of course, you’re suggesting that the Gospel cannot be found in the Bible
Andy,
What did Christ teach? To pray to Him? He taught that we are to pray to the Father. I know that to evangelicals it is the same. But we actually try to do what Christ taught specifically.
I know my initial post made people freak out. Can you tell me I was wrong about the basic beliefs of evangelical Christianity?
This thread is about what you all perceive as an inordinate and inproper position of Joseph Smith. Yet guys worship Paul. You choose the words of Paul time and time again over those of Christ.
You neglect your own history. How do you explain the non-Catholic scholars who have removed 14 books from the Bible over the last 300 years? Yep. The King James Version, the Geneva Bible, the Lutheran Bible- all have been changed with books removed. Who gave anybody authority to alter the book? Yet you point your finger at us for our treatment of the scriptures. Explain this please.
JIM
I like you. You have a way with words.
CLUFF
I thought I could lend a hand, but it would be difficult. I would simply say that the Dark Ages are enough proof to me that there was an apostacy, and that is the same proof that ex-mormons generally twist LDS doctrine more than those who never have been members.
When the Spirit of God is not in the earth all knowledge suffers, as it is the bringing of truth. Evidence: During the time of the Roman Empire (and before that) there were many technologies that were lost in the Dark Ages (including medicines and engineering constructs). Also, in the America’s, in those early days, there is evidence of great works of construction, as well as successful brain surgery. Yet look at the state of the Indians when white men first came (they had a working irragation system that they had no clue how to use). This is all evidence, at least to me, that the Spirit of God had been taken from the Earth, hence an Apostacy.
SETFREE
Let us look at the scriptures you cite.
Matt 17: 4-5 – This is not doing away with any prophets. Notice that Peter wanted to make Moses and Elias equal with Christ. When God spake from the cloud it was in warning not to do so. It does not say to ignore Moses and Elias, but to get greater head to Christ for he has more authority.
Matt 5: 33-37 and James 5: 12 – I really don’t get this. What about “Mormonism” is refuted? However, while we are in this chapter I would direct you to verse 17-20 where Christ tell us strait out that all that the prophets have said and commanded is still effect, but the law of sacrifices has been fulfilled.
Acts 4: 10-12 – Again, how does this refute LDS doctrine? I certainly have never believed otherwise, nor have I heard it taught other wise.
John 18: 20 – What? How many times did Christ teach in the Temple? How is this telling us anything about ceremonies. He is speaking about preaching, not ordinances. The High Priest is trying to trap him in his doctrine, and he is refusing to cooperate, telling him to ask the people, for his doctrine was well known.
John 4: 20-24 – I see no reference to Temples, only to worship. I see us worshiping God all over the world, so it is not at Jeruselem or in those mountains. In these verses he never once states how they will worship, only that it will be done in spirit and truth. It does not say they will not have temples.
John 4:24, Col 1:15, 1 Tim 1:17 – The invisible part does nothing to refute anything of the LDS doctrine, as we agree that he is (at least when he wishes to be). The spirit one I would give you, if it wasn’t for other verses that seem to contradict it. However, for arguments sake, and to keep this from getting out of hand, I will leave it at this.
See the problem is that our Mormon friends cannot escape the fact that the jesus that they preach is not the Jesus of the Bible. The Mormon jesus cannot do anything for Mormons actually because they don’t even have the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What Mormons have is a conspiracy theory based on total ignorance of the Bible, historic Christianity and history in general. They kind of have this “high ho, high ho, it’s off to the wards we go” mentality. It’s in the wards that they are taught their mottos and slogans that help reinforce what they want to believe. I’ve yet to see a Mormon post here who really had a clue as to what systematic theology or Biblical interpretation is all about.
So starting with a false premise they cast about bending and shaping something, anything that they can find to make what they want to believe fit. The bottom line is that Jesus was the revealed Word incarnate. The very Being of God sent to save us from our sins and reveal to us who God is. He taught His apostles who then in turn entrusted the teaching and Word of God to their disciples. The Holy Spirit safe guarded the Word within the Church, the mystical body of Christ. So that the apostle John might say, “What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of Life and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness…..” (First John 1:2,3) and the apostle Paul “And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.” (2 Timothy 2:2)
So in the end, Mormons do not have Jesus, they have some lame conspiracy theories, some mottos and slogans that seek to support the imaginative inventions of Joseph Smith who has led them to alienation form God and ultimately spiritual distruction.
Mormons count on people being ignorant and gullible. They could get away with it if there wasn’t such a huge repository of writings that track the thoughts of the Church fathers, the catechism texts, the words of the sacrements and finally the Scriptures themselves. They all form the foundation of the Christian faith. The idea that the reason we can’t find Mormonism there is because it was left out by a giant plot and conspiracy is…..well…just plain stupid.
There’s a reason why two-thirds of those on the rolls of the Utah based LDS church are inactive and why fifty percent of returning missionaries dump the program. Amazing isn’t it? After completing what is suppose to be a super spiritual Mormon experience these kids give it a big thumbs down and bolt.
Bottom line however is that it’s all about Jesus, who the Utah based Mormons have no knowledge of. The history of their own church and the break away sects who reject Joseph Smith and his Nauvoo form of Mormonism, tells us much. Even Smith’s believing contemporaries figured it out, including his original wife Emma and his son who headed up one of the break away groups.
I’ve been learning to play the guitar; into it about two and a half years and part of my practice is playing “scales”. It’s obvious when I hit a “bonk” and need to correct myself. Mormonism is a series of huge “bonks”. Our Mormon posters don’t have the spiritual hearing to perceive that what they believe is way off scale.
Jesus is the answer.
FALCON
It seems we have been doing a very successful job of getting away with it for nearly 200 years. Look at the records. Around 300,000 new converts each year (this does not include those born into the church). While I admit there are many who are inactive, and some do leave the church. Still, 300,000 converts a years is impressive.
Now, as to all the ignorant comments you make, I find it funny you claim that all “Mormons” are “ignorant and gullible” when, in general, the LDS membership has a higher level of education than any other religious group (except maybe Jews).
The claim is also rediculous when you consider that education is emphasized by the Church, as what we learn is all we are going to take with us when we die. To this end the church has the “Perpetual Education Fund” to assist people, especially those in the Third world, to gain an education and raise their nations standard of living.
However, what really makes us “ignorant and gullible” is the fact that we do not agree with how you interpret the Bible. It really doesn’t matter that such interpretation in subjective (meaning that more than one interpretation is possible). All that matters is that we believe differently from you. Of course the sheer arrogance and pride of such an idea doesn’t accure to you, since you obviously have all the answers.
It is amazing how very unchristian many christians are in their behavior.
falcon,
Evangelical critics of the LDS church are the ultimate conspiracy theorists. They claim the church is led by a secretive, deceitful group of men in smoke filled rooms in SLC who set out to control minds and steal money. Absolutely hilarious. These critics seem to think that if you same the same ridiculous thing enough times, people will believe you. It doesn’t take much intelligence to look at such outlandish claims and the leaders of the church and see the fanatical foolishness of such criticisms. Such conspiracy theorists belong with the crowd of UFO chasers.
Again you allude to the mystical and shallow pseudo-gospel in referencing the mystical body of Christ. Talk about hocus pocus and magic. You cannot define your god, nor your church, nor can you explain how you know the bible is true, even though it is the ultimate focus of your worship.
Philosophies of men mingled with scripture.
Still no answers to the basis of apostate Christianity I mentioned? And what of the changes in the Bible made by christian scholars? Yet you claim God somehow preserved the Bible without flaw. Can you reconcile these two things?
Shematwater mentions a very valid point. Look at history. You actually think the religion you follow today is the same pure religion Jesus established 2000 years ago? Considering what has happened between then and now and the differences in your religion, I find this astonishing. There has been a nearly complete fog and confusion for centuries and mellenia in which corrupt religionists manipulated the masses into following and serving them. Yet you are convinced that somehow you have inherited the original religion of Christ from those generations of false priests. I wouldn’t call somebody who sees the unlikelihood of that a conspiracy theorist. Rather, the person that sees Monson, Bednar, Eyring, etc. as self serving is truly removed from reality.
shem,
being a former convert, your comments make me sick. you know, as well as i do, that your missionary “fleet” of robots is taught to practice the proverbial “milk before meat”. if you were to tell potential converts of your true doctrine, beliefs, church “revelation” and ultimate plan of salvation (e.g., godhood, spirit children, etc.), they would see through the “church’s” white lies.
additionally, interpretation of the bible is certainly discredited in your argument. mormons still worship canonized scripture that has been disproved by modern day archaeology (i.e., book of abraham, pearl of great price). how can you convince yourself that joseph smith had it right? that, as well as the DNA evidence, was a “smoking gun” for me. where are all those 30 cities shematwater? mmhmm…
i tell you one thing. if they (the missionaries) told me the truth about how j. smith actually translated the plates (looking into hat) and the fact that no one besides j. smith ever saw tangible evidence of the plates, the planet kolob … i mean common. so you’re telling me you don’t believe in scientific validity to support your faith? if you did, you wouldn’t be mormon.
another thing, education doesn’t make one smart. education is the end result of application and steadfastness. earning a professional degree, for example. and, let’s face it, BYU is an education via indoctrination. it is a one-sided affair.
this is not surprising. the mormon indoctrination starts young. your education influenced by indoctrination, not logical thinking. if that were the case, at least one scientific mind outside of the church would come to your rescue.
pathetic.
I think the exMormons like FIGJAM do the best job of answering the active Mormons that show-up here. Here’s a good quote however that I think sums-up the Mormon situation exactly:
“”Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonsim, said men live on the moon. Why he said that no knows, but he did. He said the moon-dwellers were six feet tall, dressed like Quakers, and lived to be a thousand years old. (The Young Woman’s Journal, “The Inhabitants of the Moon,” 1892, Vol. 3, p.263.) Of course no one believes that today. Well, almost no one. My friend Bob Bryant had a conversatiohn with an otherwise intelligent engineer who found a way to believe in Smith’s “moon people.” Bob and the engineer were discussing the prophecies of Joseph Smith. Bob mentioned several of Smith’s old prophecies that did not come to pass-including the prophecy that we would find inhabitants on the moon. Bob said, ‘Look, we’ve been to the moon. We’ve sent astronauts there. There are no tall Quakers.’ The engineer had to admit that it looked like Joseph Smith had been wrong on that one. But, a few days later, approaching Bob tentatively, he reopened the conversation. ‘I know yu’re not going to like this,’ he said. ‘But I’ve been thinking-maybe the men Joseph Smith talked about live under the surface of the moon. He may yet be vindicated.’ Bob swears the guy was serious. And I believe it, because I have had dozens of similar conversations with Latter-day Saints who were otherwise reasonable, but who became irrational when it came to their faith. How, you ask, can a bright, educated person swallow something like that? How can he be so dedicated to a system that he is willing believe almost anything?”
Dr. Walter Martin said, “….a Mormon can think very rationally about his job, what clothes to wear, and things like that, but when you push the button on religion he stops thinking and gives you what he has been taught”. (Jim Spencer “Have You Witnessed to a Mormon Lately?)
absolutely fantastic! great post!
FIGJAM,
So did you join the church as a result of a spiritual witness or scientific evidences? If it was a result of a spiritual witness, what happened to it? Are you like other former members who claim you were manipulated? Can you not take responsibility for yourself and your decisions? Seems a common thing for people in your boat to want to shift responsibility to the missionaries, bishop, or leaders in SLC.
Also- I am guessing you have watched the clever videos on youtube about the Pearl of Great Price and DNA issues. They are as manipulative and misleading as just about anything I have ever seen. The DNA “evidence” that supposedly “proves the BOM is wrong” is an absolute joke. It is virtually impossible to prove the BOM wrong with DNA evidence. Yet, for folks who don’t know better, and who want to believe the book is false, it sure sounds great!
Assuming you still believe in the Bible, you demonstrate my claims in my initial post very well- are archeological evidences the basis for your faith and belief?
In which verse was it that Christ said “But the proof, which is archeological evidence, whom the Father will send in the name of scholars, it shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you?”
Oh- and there were at least 11 others who saw the plates. We call them the eleven witnesses. Their testimonies are in the front of the book. You can choose to believe the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th hand stories about their alternative accounts if your like. After all, that is the foundation for essentially all criticisms of the BOM and church- heresay and conjecture.
Figjam….spot on.
Just imagine if the missionaries were up front with investigators with major mormon doctrine. I would love to be a fly on the wall when a greenpea missionary gives his first discussion on the woman’s role in the celestial heaven:
“And yes Mrs. Jones, women in the celestial kingdom will be able to bear children * along with your husband’s other wives*. You will be a busy little beaver, because you’re expected to fill a planet with that uterus of yours.
Other wives? Oh yes Mrs. Jones, your husband is allowed to marry as many worthy females as is allowed, probably 10 or more, maybe thousands.
And don’t worry about being jealous or trying to get a little bit of attention from your one and only husband while he’s with his other wives, because you’re going to be in the celestial kingdom, where everyone will be very happy!
What amazes me the most is that I fell for all that crap, but just as bad is how little and how few times I heard the Beautiful name of Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind, in the lds world.
Shame on me, but now I am free.
No more naps during a third hour filled with the stories of the righteous “profits”.
Shem,
I would like to point out the fallacy in your reasoning, which is the underpinnings for everything you believe. You said: ” I would simply say that the Dark Ages are enough proof to me that there was an apostacy,” The basic presupposition from which you work is that God cannot preserve His Word. That’s it in a nutshell. Another fallacy from which you operate is that Jesus Christ does not have the power to preserve His church. Read Matthew 16: 15-20 to learn what Jesus said about His church. He did not set up His kingdom on earth for a limited time only. He has the power to preserve it. So, when you combine these two faulty presuppositions, you end up with a faulty conclusion: God’s Word was taken from the earth, and there was no one on the earth through whom the Holy Spirit moved and worked. The Holy Spirit wasn’t taken away from the earth, Shem, even though you are probably chomping at the bit to interject such a thought into the dialogue. To believe so is to deny the power of God, which is exactly what Mormonism does.
Peace and Grace to all who seek the Truth!
olsen,
You said, “Evangelical critics of the LDS church are the ultimate conspiracy theorists.” Hmmm…I think the conspiracy that fosters the lie that there was an apostasy and the need for a false prophet is probably bigger. Good try, though.
Blessings!
jack,
You really see no evidence of an apostasy? Really? The Bible was largely available to non-priest folk only after Gutenberg in the 15th century. Before then, the church heirarchy, which has an unfortunate history of deep and widespread corruption, held tight control of all manuscripts of the Bible. The decision as to what books went into the Bible was made by mere men at the counsels between 200 and 400 A.D. Who were those men? What criteria did they use to determine what would be included? Who gave them the authority to make such decisions?
You suggest that to believe the Bible is not the only or ultimate authority is blasphemy. Yet you seem to have no interest in knowing about the process that produced it. You simply say, in essence, that God can preserve His word. And to doubt the infallability and finality of the Bible is to doubt the power of God.
Your assumption is that God intended to maintain His church and true gospel on the earth, despite the choices of man. When has He ever done that?
How many times in history has God’s people fallen away from His teachings? Too many to count. And this, even when there were prophets sent among them regularly. Yet you don’t bat an eye at almost 2000 years of time without prophets or further guidance. You assume they would simply stay on track and remain true despite not having the scriptures available. Sorry- but I think that is very wishful thinking.
The foundation for your beliefs are the interpretations of the scriptures made by others in the last 500 years. You cannot follow your beliefs further back than that in an unbroken fashion.
Olsen Jim and Shem,
What you don’t understand about the Bible is a lot. And no wonder, especially if you are temple Mormons. Why is the temple ceremony so secret? Why can’t you talk about it with your friends? Because you are being duped into covenanting with Lucifer. It’s all over the ceremony, but you can’t see it, and the more times you go back, the less you see it because of the number of times you have taken his curses on you.
Christians are not perfect, never were. But the Holy Spirit has maintained a remnant of believers since Jesus was on earth, just like Jesus said. To suggest that the Catholics were able to irreversibly ruin the Bible is nonsense! The Old Testament, meticulously preserved by the Jews, writes the story of the upcoming New Testament in both word and lives. God painted the pictures clear enough to see on the lives of the Israelites, and they, in turn, kept the records safe.
Why is it that no Mormon cares that there is so much provable damning evidence against Joseph Smith and his writings, but when it comes to the Bible, all of the sudden everyone is a history buff?
Exactly, Setfree!! Who was Joseph Smith? A mere man? What criteria did he use to decide what went into his so called gospels? Who gave him the authority? Oh, that’s right. His imagination. He gave himself the authority from his own imagination.
Exactly, he got the authority from himself, and from his dead guys. Why, by the way, did he need to get priesthood keys from the dead guys? In his stories, weren’t John the Beloved and three Nephite Apostles, all of whom should have had all the “keys”, walking around since Jesus’ day? But,(like I’m afraid of – that some Mormons think Mormonism is the true church because they’ve seen spirits in the temple) that was his thing, conjuring up spirits, wasn’t it? Looking for treasure with his rock, his sheep with slit throats, etc etc. He liked messing around with demons. No wonder there is an ongoing seance in his temples.
Are any of the Mormon writers on here unaware of the subtle Lucifer parts of the endowment ceremony?
Witnesses saw the plates?????BINGO!!!!I love it when a Mormon brings this up. Help me please by answering this question someone, “Did the witnesses see the plates with their physical eyes or did they see the plates with the eyes of faith?” Now if our Mormon friends really want to get in the “I believe it any way” mode, then just look into that little fact.
You see oh Mormon friends, your grand pooh bah Joseph Smith was an all time great occultist who made liberal use of something called “second sight vision”. That is, he’d look into the spirit world and see things. That was what his magic rock and all the scrying was about. Believe it or not he could even look into the ground and see buried treasure which people would pay to have him dig up. What a spiritual giant Joseph Smith was.
So when he took the boys out to see the golden plates, how do you think they saw them? “….And it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them…And ye shall testify that you have seen them…” Joseph pulled off one of his all time great cons and the faithful “saw” the plates with the eyes of faith.
Tell you what Mormon friends. Close your eyes and you will see the same golden plates and an angel and Joseph Smith and a full army of witnesses. Why are you messing around here when you could be having such marvelous spiritual experiences?
Check out the books by Grant Palmer, Michael Quinn and Richard Bushman and you will see where Joseph Smith drew his power and created his jesus. Just hop right on the Joseph Smith magical mystery tour and you do can commune with demons who’d be more than happy to entertain you.
Olsen Jim,
If it is so easy to fall away, how do you know the LDS Church has not already done so? Perhaps the Fundamentalist LDS Church is the true one – it certainly looks A LOT more like the Church Joe Smith founded doesn’t it? I don’t think Joseph Smith or Brigham Young would even RECOGNIZE the modern day LDS Church. This could be another dead branch fallen away into apostasy couldn’t it?
On the other hand, I have a testimony that the LDS Church and the FLDS Church are both fallen away. I read holy scripture and I look at the LDS Church and see a religion most definitely in apostasy. God’s revealed scripture through the prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ testify to me of a loving God who sent his son to die on a cross for my sins, fulfilling the OT sacrificial system. God has spoken to us in these last days through his son, the Lord Jesus Christ. It is to Jesus all glory for our salvation belongs. A reading of the New Testament repeatedly shows people worshiping the Lord Jesus Christ and they are NOT rebuked by Jesus. Thomas exclaimed my Lord and my God as he fell on his knees before the risen Jesus. The prostitute anointed Jesus feet with perfume in a supreme act of worship. The wise men knelt before Jesus and the very angels of heaven themselves worshiped and proclaimed the Lord Jesus Christ’s glory around the time of his birth. It’s clear from holy scripture, God intends that we worship, exalt, and pray to and through the name of Jesus Christ.