In August 1844, still reeling over the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, the LDS newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois published a new Mormon hymn. William W. Phelps wrote the words of this song about Joseph Smith and set it to music, using an old Scottish folksong for the tune.
“Praise to the Man” identifies Joseph Smith as “the man who communed with Jehovah” while proclaiming that “Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.” The lyrics of the chorus are,
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.
The hymn goes on to praise Smith’s “mem’ry, he died as a martyr; honored and blest be his ever-great name!” It speaks of Smith’s blood pleading to heaven (or, before 1927 when the words were changed, Smith’s blood stained Illinois) while “the earth lauds his fame.”
More eulogizing proclaims Smith’s “great glory” and “endless priesthood,” speaks of him being “faithful and true,” and warns, “Earth must atone for the blood of that man.”
Today, just as when it was first written, this Mormon hymn is cherished by Latter-day Saints all over the world.
In early July (2009) I attended the Nauvoo Pageant: A Tribute to Joseph Smith in Illinois. This musical drama, presented live by the LDS Church and its members, ”celebrates the legacy of early Latter-day Saints” who settled Nauvoo in the 1840s.
The pageant began with a procession of bagpipers marching behind an American flag. As the flag-bearer approached and ascended the steps of the outdoor stage, the audience rose to its feet. Each person in the predominantly LDS audience placed a hand over his or her heart with high emotion. After this the audience would be invited to sing the Star Spangled Banner, but at that opening moment of the performance, the flag-bearer marched to the notes of a different tune.
I didn’t recognize the song. I would expect a procession of the American flag to be accompanied by an American song: “My Country, ‘Tis of Thee”; “America the Beautiful”; “Columbia, the Gem of the Ocean.” But the song used in the Nauvoo Pageant was a Scottish tune. So I wondered, What was the song and what was its significance in relation to the flag?
I later learned that the song chosen for the flag processional was “Praise to the Man.” And again I wondered.
The people who stood with tears in their eyes and hands on their hearts – what were they responding to? Were they exhibiting patriotic respect for the United States of America? Or were they, as Mormons very familiar with the song, exhibiting veneration of the Prophet?
And the non-Mormons in the audience — what would they have done in the midst of this emotional scene if they had known the pledge-posture of the moment was not only vowing allegiance to the flag, but was also a declaration of praise for the man Joseph Smith?
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Coincidence? Maybe. You’d have to ask the organisers of the pageant. But its fitting to play a Scottish piece when playing the bagpipes and the main piece I hear on movies and at ‘concerts’ where bagpipes are played is “Scotland the Brave” which is also similar to if not the same music as “Praise to the Man”. So most likely it is the Scottish ditty they are playing not the LDS hymn. If you don’t believe me look up “Scotland the Brave” on the internet and listen.
Our music teacher at school played “Hark the Lark” (another Scottish song) on piano for the official procession and the headmaster and others didn’t even realise the music was mocking them.
I guess it’s their pagent and they can play whatever tune they want. I don’t get the point if they are mixing Joseph Smith with honoring America though. I suppose someone could ask the people in attendence what the song was that was being played on the bagpipes. My guess is that most of them would identify it as the Joseph Smith hymn.
I was wondering if a Christian church would play “Onward Christian Soldier” Or “Battle Hymn of the Republic” or “Amazing Grace” and march in with the flag at the opening of a pagent. I don’t think so.
It just seems odd, but then that’s Mormonism.
I would have to agree with falcon on this one. It was a mormon pageant, so I guess they can play whatever tunes they want. But given the fact that this pageant took place around Independence Day, I think that it was in bad taste to play the joe smith anthem while parading the U.S. flag around (if in fact it was the joe smith anthem they were playing).
It is a free country after all. And a great deal of that freedom comes from our service men and women in uniform who fought and died because of that flag the mormons were parading around.
But that’s America isn’t it? We allow all persons to peacefully assemble concerning their beliefs…even if their beliefs put a chokehold on freedom, which the mormon religion seems so apt at doing.
Continue to pray for these people, and Love one another.
If they were playing this I think it would have been a good fit.
The pagent was to honor the Early saints and Joseph Smith. Yet, the Early saints had been driven from state to state (by the governments), had hundreds of people murdered, and eventually Joseph Himself killed and they were driven from the country.
With all this they remain some of the most patriotic people who loved their country. To them they had been betrayed by the land they loved.
In a last comment, it has been said by Joseph Smith that the Constitution was inspired by God. It has also been said (though I forget by whom) that when Christ returns he will be flying “Old Glory.”
Thus the LDS church holds the United States in a great place of reverence as the land of freedom consecrated by God, but a land that betrayed them. So, they honor the land with the Flag, but honor the prophet of God with the music. Thus they blend what they concider the symbol of the greatest part of this nation with that which they hold most dear.
I think the idea is actually a rather beautiful representation of the centiments of the Early saints.
As a former Mormon, I thank God for the hymn, “Praise to the Man.” It is a beautiful example of how Mormonism gives honor to a man that should only be given to our LORD Jesus Christ. The only blood that matters is the blood of Jesus. The only Eternal Priesthood belongs solely to Jesus Christ. I thank God for this hymn because it served as a nagging problem for me that just couldn’t be reconciled with biblical teaching. God was able to minister His grace to me through the sickening words of this hymn. I will only sing of the blood of Jesus: What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the BLOOD OF JESUS. What can make me whole again? Nothing but the BLOOD OF JESUS. To elevate the blood of a man to the importance that Mormonism elevates the blood of JS is simply sin. So, I am glad the early Mormons felt free to express their true beliefs and true allegiance to the man they truly believe responsible for their hope of exaltation. And, I thank God for leading me out of darkness into the Light, and for using the text of this hymn to unsettle me and prepare me for true salvation!
Peace and Grace!
Free,
I think you will find that at most military parades when they play the bagpipes (the Military Tattoo at New Years for instance) they play “Scotland the Brave”. And as I said, that tune is similar or the same as “Praise to the Man”. So there is nothing wrong with the bagpipes playing that tune while parading the American flag as it is done at events outside the LDS church. I don’t know what the members at the pageant were thinking when they heard the music, but whenever I hear bagpipes playing it I immediately think of “Scotland the Brave” whereas I only think of “Praise to the Man” when I am at church and it is played on the organ/piano.
For those who truely are looking for the truth here is a Youtube video of “Scotland the Brave” played by a bagpipe band.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZuq_mMDg20
For those who truely are looking for the truth here is a Youtube video of “Scotland the Brave” played by a bagpipe band.
I have played a variety of instruments all my life, although I do not have a degree in it. I listened to both of these selections, and the truth is, they are significantly different. My wife, who has her degree in music composition, would be a better judge of this. I will ask her perspective. Certainly the phrase starts out the same, but there are differences within each phrase. A person could argue that they are the same, truthfully, but others could argue that they are not. Another way to solve this would be to look for the song that the original composer used. It might be listed as a Scottish tune, and a name. I wonder if the Mormon archives have a copy of the hymn with the author of the tune on it, or at least the title, which occurs in Christian hymnals.
Uh…hmm…wow. That sort of sums up a lot about what this blog is about. The JS hymn tune was adapted from an historic Scottish tune, and Ralph wants us to believe it is the same thing. Or, perhaps, Ralph believes it is the same thing and doesn’t care if our interpretation matches his. Martin Luther used this device by taking German beer songs, and writing hymns to the tunes. He did that openly so people could sing along with their worship. Contextualization has many different forms. However, I have always heard Lutherans and other Christians openly admitting the checkered history of the tunes. I will leave it at that for now. It is Bible conference or something at church and we have a special speaker.
jackg,
You said “The only blood that matters is the blood of Jesus.”
I agree that the blood of Christ is the only means of forgiveness and salvation.
But I take issue with you when you say that the only blood that matters is the blood of Jesus? What about the patriots who sacrificed their lives to establish freedom in America? How about the blood of those who died to end slavery? How about the blood of those who died on battlefields to defeat fascism in WWII?
Their sacrifices mean a lot. So does the blood of parents who raise their kids- mothers giving birth to babies, etc.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with honoring a guy who was persecuted his entire life and whom the Lord used to restore His church, and who was a martyr to the cause of Christ. He is a hero to us, no doubt.
Of course your mind immediately goes to the comparison to Christ, claiming our love of Joseph usurps our love of Christ. But this is small and ignorant.
Shall we not be grateful for the people, other than Christ, whose sacrifices bless our lives. “Greater love hath no man than this, than he lay down his life for his friends.”
I am guessing this is simply another example of an evangelical double standard. You certainly revere people who have contributed greatly to the world, but use this issue to smear LDS.
Jack G
Joseph Smith was not a martyr – he fought back. Quite unlike what the early CHRISTIANS endured. And if I’m not mistaken, Joe had a couple of “pops” (alcohol shots) before he shot back at his attackers with the gun he had in his “jail cell”. Or was it tea or coffee or a mouthful of “ta backy”. I can remember. One of your Church Approved History Books gives a more accurate account of what Joe did and partook of.
Maybe you should try reading them.
Ralph – hence why i wrote in parenthesis the following:
(if in fact it was the joe smith anthem they were playing).
Take care bro….I’m praying for you.
Sorry…I meant to address the above post to “olsen jim”. (Jack G….please accept my apology. There seems to be a delay between my synapses and my neurons as of late).
Blessings to all.
Sidenote: You know…I met the most beautiful person yesterday. She has given all her life….yes…literally all her life …to trying to ease the suffering of people that live on this planet…and point them to our Lord and Savior Jesus. What a gift yesterday was!
I really loved listening to her … although she rarely spoke…
Blessings….Free
Come-on Olson, Jim quit playing games.
You know what jackg was talking about. You really expose yourself when you try these shallow attempts to minimize what jackg is saying regarding the Blood of Christ that was shed for the sins of the world. That is the only shed blood that matters in the context of which the observation was offered.
And who did Joseph Smith lay his life down for? I’d really be interested in knowing that. He ended up in jail because he wrecked the printing press of a man who exposed his sinful life style. He returned fire in a shoot out in a jail. Self-defense could be claimed. But he didn’t die for anyone. It goes without saying that the attack on the prisoners being held in the jail was wrong. But Joseph Smith didn’t shed his blood for anyone.
Ward,
I did not say it was the same – I said it was similar or the same. I too think there are subtle differences in the refrain and the chorus is different but overall I think they can be mixed up as they are very similar. One does not need to have a degree in music to see this. But just to satisfy you, I learned the piano through the grades to #6 out of 8. I started when I was 4 playing songs off the radio and TV by ear. I know how to play the piano, trumpet, tuba, guitar and I started the flute with a friend but gave it up. Does that make me ‘qualified’ in your mind to say that the tunes are similar or the same?
At the bottom of each hymn they give the author and composer name and dates, for this one it just says “Scottish folk song”. Wikipedia gives the ‘composition date’ of the tune for “Scotland the Brave” as possibly around the beginning of the 20th century, whereas WWPhelps birth/death dates given in the hymn book are 1792/1872. So there is a possibility they are different pieces of music, but they may be influenced from the same original tune.
JackG,
Just to emphasise what Olsen Jim said, read Free’s comment. Free said “And a great deal of that freedom comes from our service men and women in uniform who fought and died because of that flag the mormons were parading around.” Is this not ‘revering’ the blood of humans? As Olsen said, we do it in many things where sacrifice is given for a specific goal. No where in the song does it say that JS blood ‘atones’ for us or removes Jesus from His role as our Saviour and Redeemer.
Well this is very interesting. Would someone clue me in as to whether or not a Mormon can enter the Celestial Kingdom without the go ahead from Joseph Smith? A Christian believes that we have eternal life based on what Christ did for us on the Cross. In accepting, by faith, Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, God declares us not guilty. Our place in heaven is secured by the Blood of Jesus period. No add-ons, nothing other than Christ’s sacrifice received by faith.
Mormons can sing their praises to Joseph Smith because that’s the delusion they labor under. As we see, they apparently believe he layed down his life for his friends. BTW, that scripture verse refers to Christ.
I think Mormons would be advised to look a little closer into the life and character of Joseph Smith (not the sanitized version) before they write sing songs of praise to him.
Mr. Olsen, please do not use our servicemen and women to propagate your point.
“But I take issue with you when you say that the only blood that matters is the blood of Jesus? What about the patriots who sacrificed their lives to establish freedom in America? How about the blood of those who died to end slavery? How about the blood of those who died on battlefields to defeat fascism in WWII?”
I am a war veteran, and Damn proud of our fighting forces, their sacrifices mean a lot, they are the reason why we can sleep with peace at night. But don’t for one minute think that you can drag their honorable deeds into a conversation like this, I would hope that you would be a lot more humble. Those men and women of whom you spoke of gave you the right to worship the way that you please, you should have more respect for the soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen than what you bring up.
Although their deaths are tragic, they fight and fought with honor.
I could really say a lot of negative things right now, and I pray to God for restraint.
Mr. Olsen I am asking you to retract your statement and stick to topic.
I apologies to everyone for losings my cool.
I cannot leave well enough alone. I personally don’t think that the flag represents the blood of fallen soldiers; it’s much more than that. It’s a symbol of remembrance and how we honor our fall by remembering their courage, honor, and duty to a higher cause then ones self. Our Flag represents as much of our future as it does our past.
Joseph Smith, on one occasion prophesied that the U.S. government would be utterly destroyed if they did not redress the wrong committed against the saints (History of the church Vol 7) There has never been a Redress from the Government
Brigham Young falsified documents submitted to congress regarding membership into the Union. B.Y. really disliked the U.S. government, and said that “the way that members could exercise their free agency would be to vote for who the church appointed.”(Extensions of Power, Quinn)
Lets just remember that Joe and his band where not run out of towns and states because of the government, it was the locals who ran them out because they would run up debt and not pay it off; it hand little to do with the religion. So the Mormons fled.
Regarding Kirkland, Ohio
““Thirteen suits were brought against him between June 1837 and April 1839, to collect sums totaling nearly $25,000. The damages asked amounted to almost $35,000. He was arrested seven times in four months…only six [suits] were settled out of court — about $12,000…”(No Man Knows My History, 199-201)”
I am venting, really I don’t mean to sound this angry.
I want to thank my Christian family for responding to Olsen in his response to my comments. And, Free, I was a little confused at first when reading your comment… :-)But, it’s all good.
What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus! Now, THAT’S a hymn!!!!
Peace and Grace to all!
First, I think it is important to note that Joseph Smith was a Martyr. Read the definition of martyr again if you do not think so.
1. A person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
2. A person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause.
3. A person who undergoes severe or constant suffering
Now, in what way was he not a martyr. He suffered severe and constant suffering. He was put to death because of his faith. He willingly submitted to death rather than renounce his faith. He was a martyr.
Now, I know some idiots want to claim that because he defended himself he is not a martyr, but this is not true. Yes, he would have prefered to live, and did what he could to remain alive. However, he prefered death to denying his faith, and that is all that truly matters by the definition.
KEVIN
Yes, the early saints were driven by the govenments (or the persecution was sanctioned by them). Look at the history of Missouri. Have you never heard of the extermination order? Haven’t you heard that the Missouri legislature approved this action. This was the state government that drove them out.
As to Illunois, read the histories again. Joseph was promised military protection, but was then denied it. The few sent to protect him had publically sworn to destroy the “mormons.” Again, it was through the actions of the government that these things were made possible.
Even in New York and Ohio the saints were forced to leave not because the people persecuted them, but because the government refused to give them the protection that was their right.
I have been commenting on things that always served to nag at me when I was a Mormon. In addition to the Mormon hymn we have been discussing, I have always been bothered by the way JS died. To me, it seemed he died a coward’s death, especially when considering a true Christian martyr whose martyrdom we can read in the Bible in the Book of Acts–Stephen. JS jumped out the window trying to avoid being killed. Stephen stood there and boldly proclaimed Christ before being stoned to death. I know this probably isn’t significant to a lot of people, but it was and is to me. It’s a testimony of how God uses little things to nag at us until we come to Him for answers to why these things are nagging. I know God’s purpose for that nagging in my life: it was to lead me to Him and away from JS and Mormonism. I am convinced that God is using little things, though perhaps different from those He used with me, in the lives of every Mormon to wake them up to the Truth. I am convinced that all Mormons have something that nags at them to the point that they say, “I’ll learn more about it in heaven…God just hasn’t revealed that to me, yet.” If it’s nagging, there’s a reason. God is calling you to Him.
Peace and Grace!
Why in the world would anyone sing a song of praise to Joseph Smith? I just came across a website with an author who had spent years chasing around England working like a fool to promote Smith’s religion. Upon further review, he came to a different conclusion from that which had driven him to spend so many years of his life supporting this fraud. Unfortuately, he like so many exMos is an atheist. He left an atheist and then three years later he came across something that led him to dig further into the history of the Mormon church and it’s early leaders. He warns Mormons with a testimony to stay away from his books. He has just finished a three volume set, heavily documented.
The Christians on this site would find the work very interesting and enlightening. Mormons should stay put; it would mean having to up the ante of denial and rationalization.
http://www.mormondelusion.com
Now, as to the subject of this thread, I think it was the non-LDS that got of topic first, and Olsen simply tried to steer us back on.
It is contended by the non-LDS that praising Joseph Smith for what he did some how detracts from Christ and what he did. This is truly, and as it has been pointed out, no where does it say that Joseph took the part of Christ.
As to praising men, didn’t the people of the Old Testiment praise David? They sang their song of “Saul slew his thousands, and David his ten thousands?”
Didn’t the Isrealites sing a song praising Moses?
Christ himself praised John the Baptist as the Greatest prophet born of woman (Matt 11: 11, Luke 7: 28).
If the Isrealites praised their leaders, and Christ himself gave praise to John the Baptist, why is it so wrong for us to give praise to Joseph Smith?
It’s wrong for you to praise Joseph Smith because he was a deceiver and a fraud. Please don’t even mention his name along side David and Moses. Besides, the Hebrews knew who God is. Mormons are clueless regarding who God is and elevate Smith to a level where by he provides entry into the Mormon heaven. It would do Mormons well to spend some time examining carefully this guy they claim as a prophet. If Smith were alive today, he’d get excommunicated from the Utah branch of the LDS church and he’d be running a little cult down in Colorado City, Arizona.
So now before some Mormon pops on here and tries to do the argument from equivalency and say because prophets in the OT also sinned, that means that Joseph Smith (in Mormon terms) is “true”; by extension that would mean then that everyone and anyone claiming to be a prophet is “true”.
Smith is disqualified from being a prophet not only on the basis of his life style choices and because he promoted a false doctrine regarding the nature of God and man, but also because he was a fraud when it came to the office of the prophet. The Bible is clear that if someone says they are a prophet and their prophecies don’t come to pass, reject them. Sounds like pretty sound advice. In Smith’s case he had a pretty dismal record when it came to prophesy.
I know that Momrons collect extra credibility stamps down at the Wards during testimony service if they can list all of the objections to Joseph Smith and then say “….and my testimony is stronger than ever.” If this is delivered with a shakey voice and glistening eyes, the more stamps to put into the stamp book.
I would think that at some point a person’s integrity would kick in, but locked inside the group think of Mormonism, what’s normal to the rest of us doesn’t count with Mormons.
Kevin,
I appreciate your service to our country. I consider myself extremely patriotic and revere all who have risked life to establish and preserve our freedom.
But not in any way will I retract my statement. To me, Joseph Smith was a prophet of God through whom God restored His church. He experienced severe persecution throughout his life and gave his life for the cause for which he had lived.
It is rediculous to claim somehow Joseph was not martyred. The mob, 250 men with their faces painted black, all armed with weapons, stormed the jail with the intent to kill an imprisoned man. Joseph had a revolver- sounds like a pretty fair fight to you? I think if Joseph were alone he would not have fired the revolver. But he was not. His brother and two other dear friends were with him. Every indication is that he was attempting to preserve their lives- else why jump out the window- to escape? Right. He jumped because he knew the mob wanted to kill him and going out the window just might keep the others from being killed. Sorry, but your version of this event is absolutely rediculous.
LDS critics think they are so cute and clever. They go around and light as many fires as they can, knowing that it takes one second to do so and hours to put each of those fires out. There really is nothing new or intelligent in their statements.
Jackg- I only say this because you constantly bring up your path out of the church to the light. God led you out in mercy? Tell me, would you recommend the same path for other LDS? Does adultery lead to the light? I am as much a sinner as the next guy, but your constant reference to your path despite its nature and character is so hypocritical.
Mr. Olsen, I didn’t expect you to retract your statement, and thats a shame, you had the opportunity to make a wrong, right. Sad day.
I was not asking you to retract your statement about JS, he is your Hero, your Godsend, your gatekeeper to the CK; heavens no would I ask you to retract that. I was asking you to retract the portion regard our Armed Forces, than stick to the topic.
I love this,
“1. A person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
2. A person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause.
3. A person who undergoes severe or constant suffering”
1.JS didn’t Die willingly, he was guilted into returning ‘after’ he fled for his life, then he fought back
2. Great suffering brought on by himself! By destroying the printing press, sleeping with teenage girls, Threatening the Government, to name a few
3. Constant suffering? He was revered close to a God, women left their husbands to be with him, he ran up debts that he never had to pay.
Love this also, “extermination order” (Why was the order put into place, does anyone have the history behind this) Missouri was not the only ones to place such an order. Brigham Young also ordered Saints to be killed, those who feel away, or did something that pissed the Church off had to “Atone with Blood sacrifice”, it was an official church calling to be a hit man. (Extensions of Power, Quinn)
Shem, whats your explanation to my post on Kirkland, Ohio?
Mr. Olsen, IF JS was acting so valiantly, Why did he not go to the front door and meet the Mob, offering himself up, to save the rest.
Would this not have saved his cell mates? If not, than why go to the window to “save his companions”?
Why wait for the bullets to fly before acting?
I don’t disagree that he was killed in Cold Blood.
I don’t blame JS for shooting back when someone was trying to kill him, he was scared, anyone would probably do the same. I personally think how the whole thing went down, according to the LDS people, disqualifies him as a martyr.
Olsen,
Thank you for bringing up the fact that I was an adulterer, because that allows me to proclaim to the world that Jesus Christ saves adulterous sinners such as I was. Also, your statement once again reveals the erroneous LDS teaching regarding sins, where one is worse than another, which, again, is a totally nonbiblical perspective. Perhaps you don’t know the power of Christ to save sinners. Perhaps you think that I cannot proclaim to the world concerning God’s mercy and grace. Here’s a passage from God’s Word for you and for all others who think they are better than someone because in your own minds your sins AREN’T AS BAD: “You see, at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly (this describes my old self)…But God demonstrated his own love for us in this:while we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:6,8). Your comment to me was very lame and only revealed your lack of understanding God’s Word, God’s power to save, and YOUR OWN SINFUL CONDITION. To infer that someone should be an adulterer is immature and shows a lack of common sense. But, you are only trying to make yourself look better. But, it’s not about me and my sinful past, it’s all about JESUS CHRIST and HIS DESIRE AND ABILITY TO SAVE SINNERS. PRAISE BE TO HIM AND HIS AMAZING LOVE AND SACRIFICE FOR THE WORLD. Sorry you can’t paint me as hypocritical, Olsen, as much as you want to. I would have to deny being a sinner to be a hypocrite. Still praying for you despite your attempt at plain meanness. I truly know you are a victim of the crimes of JS et al. May you accept the mercy and grace God offers you.
Peace and Grace!
Olsen, Jim
If you would like I can give you a list and history of my sin life before I came to Christ and found mercy and forgivness and you can throw it in my face when you find yourself unable to make a constructive argument. Only a self-righteous, prideful hypocrite would seek to throw someone’s previous life of sin in their face. jackg followed a path to the father and found there a God who accepted Him as he was; a repentent sinner. Like the rest of us Christians, jack found unconditional love from a God who was ready to embrace him as he was. All of us were degenerate but repentent sinners.
You would do well to read the parable of the Prodigal Son who the father ran to and embraced despite his dirty, smelly, tatered appearence. The father put the best robe on him, put a ring on his finger and threw a party, for his son who had been lost had come back. Like the Prodigal Son, each Christian here lived in his/her own pig pen of sinful dispair until God reached out with his mercy and forgivness and embraced and accepted us as we were.
You’d do well to deal with the beam in your own eye before you attempt to remove the spec from someone elses.
KEVIN
You have no true understanding of the character of Joseph Smith, or of any of the early leaders if you can truly believe what you have said.
First, Joseph was not guilted into returning. Yes he planned to go West to save hs life, but it was not guilt that brought him back. It was his love for the saints. He loved them too much to leave them when they begged him to stay. I loved the quote “If my life means nothing to my friends it means nothing to me.”
Even on his way to the jail at Carthage he told his brother “I go as a lamb to the slaughter.” This was a man resigned to the fact that his life was about to be over, and he was fine with it.
Yes, he faught back. Partly out of survival instincts, but partly to protect his friends. He did not give himself up because he did not expect the attack at the time it came, and by the time it did there was no chance. He only went for the window after his brother was dead and John Taylor was wounded in an attempt to draw off the fire. It is also believed by some that he went to the window to call for aid from the Masons in the crowd, as he was a Master Mason, thus he may have been trying to give himself up to save the others.
As to the destruction of the printing press, please read history, and try to actually understand what happened.
It was the town councel that ordered it shut down, not Joseph Smith. It was not Joseph that destroyed it, but the sherif, whose only orders were to close it. So, the actual destruction is on his hands, not Joseph’s.
Besides this, why weren’t the men of Jaskcon Missouri tried for treason when they destroyed the press of the LDS church (and without any official order)? What happened to all those who murdered and raped the saints? What conpensation did the saints receive for their damages? None.
Yes, destroying the press was a unwise and over the top, but it is very understandable.
As to debts, Joseph never left debts unattended too. Yes he left places while he still had debts, but he always had a power of attourny left behind to rap up his affairs.
As to sleeping with teenage girls, first, I have yet to actually see the proof. Second, it was common for girls as young as 14 to be married in the 1800’s, so he did nothing that many others has also done. If you refer to Plural Marriage, I have nothing against this, nor should anyone who accepts Abraham or Jacob as prophets as they both had plural wives.
On the last note of this idiocy, Joseph never threatened the Government. He prophecied against it, but he never threatened it. Never did he say that he would do anything against them, only that God would.
Now, as to his suffering, of course the saints didn’t persecute him, but almost everyone else did. How many times was he arrested on false charges? How many times did mobs break into his house? How many times did he bare the threatenings of evil men against him? From the time he was about 14 until the day he died he endure a constant, and frequently violant, opposition. This is continual suffering.
JackG,
As I said in my post “I am as much a sinner as the next guy.” But you make it a habit of pointing to your exit from the LDS church as such a God-inspired and Spirit-filled process that should be the model for other LDS? How many times have you said such. Is this not what you pray for?
I am merely pointing to the hypocrosy and inconsistency of your plea to LDS. You simply have a conflict of interest that you will not admit.
Kevin- I in no way misused the armed forces in my argument. Jackg claimed that “The only blood that matters is the blood of Jesus.” I countered that his was an overstatement. The blood of other people matters too, like patriots and people who sacrifice for others. And to me, this includes Joseph Smith. You can disagree all you want, but his life and offering was honorable and memorable. Period.
If what we claim about Joseph Smith were true, would you feel his life and death worthy of our remembrance, along with others?
Falcon- I expected your inflammatory response. But notice I did not condemn jackg- just pointed out his selective memory and irrational logic- God just simply does not work the way jackg claims. On the other hand, how many times have you condemned LDS to hell and outer darkness on this blog? Too many times to count. Who is playing God?
Really?? I am literally Rolling on the floor laughing my *** off.
I know the church history, I lived it, I was taught it, by the teachers, bishops, and presidents of the so called church. I relay information for there mouths, coupled with text for references.
JS did make that prophecy against the Government, that was suppose to happen within 10 years. Guess what, WE are still standing. False Prophecy. Since God would not lie, that is a threat from Ol` JS. Second, JS often practiced back dating “revelation”, and made it well know that it was the “saints” job to fulfill his “revelation”. Another clue to this indignation and contempt for God.
Power of Attorney, Really? Thats an official document filed with the state, wheres the proof?
JS was the Mayor of the town, of course he ordered the destruction for printing harmful evidence or opinion against the so called church.
Why was it that the Governor wanted JS arrest in the first place, he was massing an army and that threatened the Government.
Lastly, it was no secret that the Mob was coming, they walked down the middle of the street. Surely JS know he was “going to the slaughter” in his words, he knew he was dead. So why hide behind his friends, as he did, or else he would have been the first to take a bullet. Not martyr like behavior. If his friends were trying to save him, a true martyr would not have let them take the first bullet.
shem, have your read Qinns books, he is a church historian, he had access to the vaults for over 10 years. He still believes in the church.
I didn’t leave the church because of what others told me, I left the church because of what the church told me.
Olsen,
It’s apparent that you have a need to discredit my witness regarding the grace of Jesus Christ and His desire and ability to save sinners. Yeah, you said you were just as much a sinner as the next guy, but it came across as very insincere. You see, the part that you don’t get is that my story is not about ME. I know that’s a different concept for you since Mormonism is a very man-focused religion, especially regarding works and the belief that you can merit anything through them. I tell my story because it’s about JESUS CHRIST. I know that’s a foreign concept to you. I would like for you to explain to me how you think God works when it comes to redeeming sinners, Olsen. Show me where my logic is irrational regarding sin and salvation, grace and mercy. I would like to remind you of the “chief sinner” and how God saved him while he was yet a sinner: “I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison, as also the high priest and all the Council can testify. I even obtained letters from them to their brothers in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished. About noon as I came near to Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?'” Jesus saves us while we are yet sinners, Olsen, and then He sends us to tell the world how He has the power to redeem SINNERS. Paul recalls the words of Ananias: “You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.” That’s what I’m doing, Olsen–witnessing to all men of what I have seen and heard regarding the saving grace of Jesus Christ. I have experienced it, and now I am telling the world that Jesus saves wretches such as I! Good News!!
Peace and Grace!
Beautifully put, jackg.
I’d like to add that you are not, at least that I’ve seen, trying to “validate” what you did by saying that God called you to do it, and making it into a “revelation” or “everlasting covenant” for everyone. He didn’t call you to sin. He called you out of your sin. He first loved you, and that is why you now love Him in a way you never were able to realize when you were a self-sanctified guy.
Jesus is the MAN! Oh praise to Jesus, Glory to His Name!
One of the things that I struggle with understanding, and maybe our exMo friends here can help me, is how can Mormons, who know all the dirty details about Joseph Smith, continue to believe that the guy was a prophet? Now the dupes, who have had information withheld from them, I can see how they can be taken in by the sanitized version of the Joseph Smith story. The BoM is about 25% King James Bible and 25% 19th century evangelical revivalism so I can see where someone would “feel” something when reading it. To interpret the feeling as confirmation from God that it’s true, is a leap way too far. Another 25% of the BoM comes from the information that was in the environment that Smith lived, including the idea that the indians were decendants of the Jews. The last 25% was Smith’s own creative story telling.
But a part from all of that, this Smith guy was a total reprobate and con artist. A person would have to be in a deep sense of denial not to get that. So what’s the hook that gets these Mormon folks to sing praises to one of the greatest, if not the greatest, religious con man in American history?
Satan wants the praise. Our natural man wants the praise. To hear this LDS song and see the reverence given it is to witness the fallen state of man and the subtlety of the serpent.
I drop in and I see that nothing has changed with our two Mormon contributors: Shem and Olsen. Shem is still throwing around words like “idiots” so he doesn’t deserve the effort of typing a response to him directly since he still keeps committing the sin of mocking. Olsen and Shem’s ignorance of LDS history is amusing and typical. Again, I encourage them to do some reading on their own from LDS historians such as Richard Bushman, Todd Compton, Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippets Avery. Later, they could take on a big project like reading all 7 volumes of the “History of the Church” from the LDS Church.
I’ve been playing music for about 30 years and last Sunday night I was asked to play the offertory at church. As I scanned the index of songs for a selection I never came across the title of “Praise to the Man”. Why is that? Well, quite simply, we don’t give recognition in the slightest degree to any of the past prophets of Christianity. It’s not appropriate and if any of those prophets were around today they would be appalled of even the thought that we would give them any mention of recognition in the form of a song or something else. The focus of our attention in our songs should be on Christ and Him alone when it comes to special mention.
The words in “Praise to the Man” of “the man who communed with Jehovah” would be much more fitting of Moses than of Joseph Smith. Compare the history of time communing with Jehovah done by Moses compared with the alleged encounter by the boy Joseph Smith in the woods in New York…big difference. No, Moses isn’t going to get any recognition of any song in the Baptist Hymnal – not now or ever. Moses would want it that way. Joseph, on the other hand, being the egomaniac that he was would probably love it.
In my 1998 LDS Hymnal I don’t see the song “Amazing Grace”. Mormons sing about Joseph, but not about grace. Why is that? It’s clear to me. I only wish it was for our Mormon friends.
Kevin,
I understand why you got angry at the overtones implied by Olsen. I’m a veteran too. When Joseph Smith’s blood was spilt at Carthage Jail it was only because he didn’t make it out of the window in time in trying to save his sorry hide. Hyrum was already capped and Joseph giving the Masonic sign of distress at the window didn’t help him either. Joseph was a wannabe soldier. He never was in the Union Army. He went from “joe citizen” to the “general” of the Nauvoo Militia overnight. What a deal…got to be general and he didn’t have to go to West Point…what a joke. Joseph Smith being in Carthage Jail for other unworthy reasons (treason – Governor Ford) has no comparison to the real soldiers who spilled blood on the field of battle or in the operating room after the mission for a worthy cause. There is a big difference. The memories from those days are unpleasant to me.
You asked: “Love this also, ‘extermination order’ (Why was the order put into place, does anyone have the history behind this) Missouri was not the only ones to place such an order.”
The history behind this goes back to Sidney Rigdon’s famous “Salt Sermon” of 1838. The implications from Rigdon’s sermon was serious enough to make Cowdery and Whitmer flee Missouri. Rigdon was the first to throw around the word “extermination”. Governor Boggs of Missouri decided to return the volley after Rigdon said this:
““And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between us and them a war of EXTERMINATION, for we will follow them, till the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us: for we will carry the seal of war to their own houses, and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed – Remember it then all MEN.” (Oration Delivered by Mr. S. Rigdon on the 4th of July, 1838, at Far West, Caldwell County, Missouri, by Sidney Rigdon) [Far West: Printed at the Journal Office, 1838; New Mormon Studies CD Rom]
Part 1
Joseph Smith used the phrase, “I’m going like a lamb to the slaughter” quite a bit according to LDS historians. There are different accounts of this line by Joseph in several LDS books, but I’d like to bring one out that particularly bothers me and then throw in the “knuckle ball”.
First, Joseph Smith was a coward in those final days of his life by fleeing to Montrose, Iowa with Hyrum Smith, Willard Richards and Porter Rockwell in a leaky boat with Porter doing the rowing. He left his wife, kids and the rest of the Church members in Nauvoo to defend for themselves. A real hero, eh? Vilate Kimball, the mother of the 14 year-old Helen Mar who Joseph married in plural marriage, wasn’t very happy about it. She wrote her husband, Heber, this:
“Some were tryed almost to death to think Joseph should leve them in the hour of danger.”
Second, historians say that Emma wasn’t happy about it either. She apparently sent word to Joseph over in Montrose putting him on guilt trips for fleeing the Church and less than 12 hours later Joseph was back in Nauvoo, but not for long. He was soon arrested for treason on charges by Governor Ford of Illinois.
What needs to be stated here is the rest of Joseph Smith’s statement that our Mormon friends leave out. Joseph Smith said:
“I go as a lamb to the slaughter, but if my death will ATONE FOR MY FAULTS I have committed during my lifetime I am willing to die.” (“Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith”, p. 190; Mary B. Smith Norman to Ina Smith Coolbrith, 27 March 1908, RLDS Library-Archives; “Joseph Smith’s Prophecies of Martyrdom”, Richard L. Anderson, Sidney B. Sperry Symposium, BYU, 26 January 1980)
Part 2
Take a close look at that statement made by Joseph Smith in that last quote. What I find offensive about this is that, once again and no surprise, Joseph wants to bring a Messianic implication into this by quoting Isaiah 53:7. Paul references this verse too in speaking of Christ in Acts 8:32. This is what I meant earlier when I referred to Joseph being an egomaniac. This is just one reason. For him to imply any implication, thought or words that relate to Christ’s sacrifical death and atonement on the cross is outrageous!
Christ was without sin (2 Cor 5:21). Joseph was not even by his own admission. Christ was the perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 10:14). Joseph was no sacrifice for anything to anybody. He was in Carthage Jail because he was a screw-up who broke the law and didn’t know how to run the Nauvoo Militia because he was a “play” general which lead to him being charged with treason.
Joseph Smith didn’t get it. He thought he could atone for his own faults (sins) by his own death? That sounds like the good ole’ Mormon doctrine of blood atonement coming through loud and clear! Once again, if Joseph Smith had actually studied his Bible instead of plagarizing it in LDS scriptures he would have known that there is nothing he could do to atone for his sins on his own by any means. Full atonement is through Jesus Christ (Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 9:12)
Isaiah 53:7 (KJV) states – “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, YET HE OPENED NOT HIS MOUTH”.
Now, does Joseph Smith fit that description which is the “leader” to “lamb to the slaughter”? No, he doesn’t. Joseph Smith ran his mouth plenty and that is what got him in trouble. When he gave the order to have the Nauvoo Expositor destroyed that was the beginning of the end. Then again, if he would have obeyed what he wrote in Jacob 2 about polygamy he wouldn’t have had those things written about him in the paper.
Joseph’s implication or using a Messianic link is blasphemy. (Matthew 12:37)
Andy’s first post last night, gave me pause to think a little deeper about the repugnant nature of the “Praise to the Man” ditty Mormons love to sing. First of all, all praise and glory go to Jesus Christ, period. As a struggling guitar and bass player, I like to sample different worship bands that play what’s known as contempory worship music. Some of it’s pretty edgey and reflects the modern culture in its genre. However one thing that I do notice as the words to the songs are flashed on the gigantic projection screens, it’s all about praising God. The very idea that someone would come up with a song that would praise anyone other than God, would send people right out the back door, literally.
In Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians chapter one, the apostle addresses this topic:
“Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, ‘I am of Paul,’ and ‘I of Cephas,’ and ‘I of Christ.’ Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”
Paul makes it very clear that Jesus is the central focus of our love and devotion. By extension, Jesus is the One and only One to be praised. The Mormon song demonstrates once again how totally out of wack Mormonism is. It praises a man taking the glory away from God. I must ask, “To whose end is being served by robbing God of His glory?”
Mormons need to repent of this and turn away from this idol they’ve created and turn to the One and only living God.
Andy,
I have never used the word “idiots” or anything close. And read Jacob 2 again.
Falcon- ever read the Book of Mormon? Your expertise on the matter is impressive.
I simply didn’t know that evangelicals do not believe in giving anybody credit for anything. Nothing deserves any degree of recognition but Jesus. Sounds like you all should not be celebrating birthdays, Independence Day, President’s Day, wedding anniversaries, Mothers Day, Fathers Day, etc.
Look- you and LDS have a different take on the history and truth of the claims of Joseph Smith. That is all good and fine. We can argue about the details all day. If you all believed that God had restored His own church and Priesthood through a man who had suffered persecution his whole life for doing so, and who died at the hands of a mob whose mission was to stop that work, would you not appreciate that man and give him some recognition? If not, than I would say you are ungrateful. Marxists of gratitude- there exists only a finite amount of gratitude. Showing gratitude to one takes away from all others. Goes along with your welfare-state gospel of salvation.
It is really hard not to dismiss everything the critics say when they make claims like we worship Joseph Smith or that we don’t worship Jesus. You are simply in another world, and your only interest is to light fires in as many places as possible. You have no credibility in the real world.
My purpose for leaving the world of the lurker to post here was to demonstrate a couple of things: 1. evangelical critics will not answer straight questions about their origins, authority, and the infallability of the Bible 2. they do the exact things they accuse LDS of doing when challenged about their foundation.
While you may have some power in numbers here, the ability to face basic questions about your own religion and scrutinize data, including Biblical text, are not your strengths.
But that is fine. I do respect your faith in God and your recognition that there is more than this life and world.
I would like to give a little advice to the LDS who are posting on this particular thread.
Stop.
Quite frankly the hatred and venom that is spewed forth in these posts from the non-LDS (more especially those who once had the truth) is nausiating to read, and no good will come from doing so.
(Oh, and by the way Andy, I have been careful to only call the words idiocy and not the people, which is exactly what you did in your reply to me.)
Olsen, Jim
I’ll tell you what, Andy Watson and I would be more than willing to spend any amount of time you want to answer any and all questions you have about anything related to Christianity. You can pick the topic and generate a list of questions and we will answer them. We will do this off line where there are no restrictions regarding the number of posts and the length. The moderators can provide you with our e mail addresses.
We can discuss the nature of God, the Bible, the basic doctrines of the Christian Church, the history of the early Church from pentecost to 450 A.D., anything you want, we will devote ourselves to providing you with all of the information (and more) than you would ever want.
Let me add, you really have a way of going over the edge in your comments. Is this by design? What I’m referring to are your comments regarding Christian’s not giving anyone else credit other than Jesus and not celebrating birthdays etc. That type of comment won’t move you forward in any way to developing understanding of the topic of hand.
BTW, if you want, I’ll do a running commentary on the BoM for you in addition to any other discussions you might want to have. But, be fore- warned, I don’t play the Mormon game of pray about it and generate a feeling that indicates that the BoM is true. See the problem with Mormons is that the only acceptable response is that the BoM is true; very manipulative, dishonest, and unBiblical. My comments regarding the percentages breakdown of the BoM comes directly from Mormon author Grant Palmer writer of “An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins”; in an interview with Mormon John Dehlin in the broadcast Mormon Stories. If you have the courage, check out the following:
http://mormonstories.org/?page_id=102
Shem,
I’m fond of saying that I can pretty much set my watch by certain standard Mormon comments and tactics when things aren’t going well for them. You just provided one and that’s the “persecution card”. The people here that are ex and never been Mormons have been passionate but very measured in their posts. The problem is the Mormons can’t stand the scrutiny of Mormonism and Joseph Smith. Anything that’s a challenge to a Mormon’s testimony, just rocks their world.
The other tactic Mormons like to use is the “I just don’t feel the spirit here.” Of course you don’t, not the spirit you respond to. The ambiance that Mormons call “the spirit” is just their desire to not be challenged. I would suggest that you stay off these types of websites and just hang around with other Mormons who will reinforce your testimony. Coming to a place like this might just unravel your world.
If you have a rock solid testimony what’s your problem? The deal is that you’re operating on the surface level regarding Mormonism which keeps you happy but unfortuately, spiritually lost.
Shem,
I must admit that my posts in this particular thread have not been my best work, I have not been very compassionate, but confentational, which is not helpful.
I ask you to please look past my ranting and raving and see that I really do want to express certain things that I have learned from the church.
Do you think it was easy for my wife and I to leave something that we both defended passionately. It was not an easy transition, especially for her, being raised in the; I was a convert in my late twenties.
It’s only been a few months since we were liberated so a lot of this is still fresh in my mind. Soon, we hope to start a Ex-Mormon support group in Minnesota.
I come to this site, and post Mormon to bring both worlds together, to understand issues like, cultural indocternatio, and scriptural references, reasons why people leave and why some groups are so critical of the Mormons. I think its important to know how opposing groups approach the LDS mind set, some have great approaches, some not so great, I am trying to take the best out of all the ideas.
I look at it this way, no one is ready to leave Mormonism until they can rationally evaluate the evidence with a opened mind. Which is incredibly hard to do considering we are all bias to one degree or another. Mentally, I left the church a year before my wife did, I am sure I influenced her some, but I tried my hardest to let her come to her own realization, and she did, and it was through the power of the holy ghost.
I give you these tidbits because I want everyone to know where I am coming from.
“The church tells me the world is flat, I know it is round because I have seen the shadow on the moon. I believe a shadow much more then I believe the church” ~I believe Magellan said this.
Olsen Jim,
When I was in the Army Rangers we had a saying that went something like this: “Stay alert – stay alive” and “Get your head out of your 4th point of contact” (parachute landings – use your imagination on what the 4th point of contact is). I’d say there is some carryover here that applies to you and this deals with your soul. I didn’t accuse you of calling me or anyone else and “idiot” I SAID SHEM. My post above said:
“Shem is still throwing around words like ‘idiots’ so he doesn’t deserve the effort of typing a response to him directly since he still keeps committing the sin of mocking.”
I’ve read Jacob 2. This where the above saying comes in. You need to pay attention to detail and stay alert. Ignoring God’s Word (the Bible) will cost you spiritually forever. I’ve not only read Jacob 2, I’ve read the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. I’ve read the BoM more times than I’ve read the Bible. I have full length chapter by chapter analysis of every chapter in the LDS Standard Works typed out on Microsoft Word. When you’re ready to involve yourself in some serious scholarship instead of amusing one-liners let me know. Again, you can start by reading the works of your own LDS historians. I provided you a list.
I’m also ready to answer whatever question you have regarding Christianity and the Bible. I have a testimony too. Talk is cheap. Action is preferable.
Andy Watson
[email protected]
Shem,
You need to learn to pay attention to detail too. Stay alert – stay alive! Stop whining and sniveling and face the facts. You’re still not using words like “idiots”? Okay, I guess I’ll have to “copy and paste” your post from 21 July at the top:
“Now, I know some IDIOTS want to claim that because he defended himself he is not a martyr, but this is not true.”
Shem, why are you “pulling your parachute” and now abandoning the thread? Is it because facts with LDS references and scholarship once again shows that you are throwing around your own version of LDS history “off your hip”? Well, that may cut it at the priesthood quorum at the ward where you won’t be checked, but not here. I am going to test everything you say by the Word of God, the Bible (1 Thes 5:21; Acts 178:10-11) and then I’ll research every LDS reference (if you ever give one) from my LDS library. The gig is up. Like I told Olsen, “Talk is cheap. Action is preferable.”
If your faith and testimony can’t hold up to even the slightest bit of anxiety in the face of historical facts stated from your own people, then you have no faith at all. I’m just doing what Brigham Young told me to do when he said:
“Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will not stand the test.” (Discourses of Brigham Young, page 126)
Also the Prophet George Smith:
“If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.” (President George Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol.14: 216-217)
I obeyed Brigham and George and the LDS faith failed the test.
Reality Check,
Andy Watson
[email protected]
Kevin,
You have nothing to apologize for. Your posts have been very good but we must remember that the “sting” in a comment comes from the “truth in it”.
Perhaps we could meet some time. I am within sight of Minnesota and travel to the Twin Cities quite often.
The moderators have my e mail if you’re interested in connecting some time.
Falcon,
Thanks for the support. I sent Aaron an E-mail regarding an E-mail swap.
I live in the Twin Cities and I would look forward to meeting you.