Summer 1844: Sorrowful Times in Nauvoo

Latter-day Saints Isaac and Sarah Scott were married in Massachusetts in 1843. They moved to Nauvoo, Illinois, where they became eyewitnesses to the events surrounding the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. Sarah wrote to her in-laws beginning on July 22, 1844, a few weeks after the murders; Isaac added a short note at the end. Their letter provides a rare and personal narrative from those dark days in Nauvoo.

The Scotts began to distance themselves from the main body of the Church in early 1844. Their candid account of the murders of the Smith brothers dispels some myths that are usually included in the standard LDS telling of this event. For Mormons, the story has become a legend; for the Scotts, it was a turbulent and trying time through which they lived.

I have minimally edited their personal account here as indicated by ellipses. You will find the entire text of the Scott’s letter in Cultures in Conflict: A Documentary History of the Mormon War in Illinois, John E. Hallwas and Roger D. Launius, pages 256-259.

Nauvoo, Illinois
July 22, 1844.

My Dear Father and Mother:

I supposed you received our letter and was somewhat prepared, when you heard of the dreadful murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith in Carthage jail. Little did we think that an event like that would ever transpire. The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he had been on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the last Neighbor [LDS newspaper] that was published before his death that they would come off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God in Israel. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conference that he could not be killed within five years from that time: that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed, for that he had received an unconditional promise from the Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell at defiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they never could kill his Child. But now that he is killed some of the Church say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husband was there at the time and says there was not conditions whatever, and many others testify to the same thing.

I suppose you have heard from Mr. Haven and Martha before this and have learned their mind concerning Joseph and Hyrum, but I cannot help believing that had they been innocent, that the Lord would not have suffered them to fall by the hands of wicked murderers. I believe they would have been living men to-day, had they been willing for others to enjoy the same liberties they wish for themselves.

The governor visited Nauvoo the day that Joseph and Hyrum were killed and made a speech. He told the people of Nauvoo the burning of that press [dissenter’s newspaper the Nauvoo Expositor] was arbitrary, unlawful, unconstitutional, and that they had hurt themselves more than ten presses could have injured them in ten years.

The governor was met on his return to Carthage by a messenger informing him of the assassination. Many of the Mormons blame the governor for not bringing them with him and others do not. I think it looks strange his leaving a guard of only eight men with them and taking so many with himself. I have no doubt however but he was afraid of his own life or he would not have taken the number of men he did with him. I heard there were three hundred. The governor did not dare to stop in Carthage that night, and men, women, and children fled from there. I believe there was only three or four men that stopped in the place that night. I think the people of Carthage so far have suffered more than the Mormons. Who the vile murderers were I suppose never will be known till the day when all flesh shall stand before God to answer for the deeds done in the body. Many of the Mormons lay it on the Missourians, others to the apostates, as they call them. If it is apostasy from Mormonism to come out against the doctrines of more Gods than one, more wives than one, and many other damnable heresies that they have taught, I hope and pray that I and all the rest of the Church may become apostates.

Mr. Haven told me last spring before I was married that those doctrines tried his faith very much till he heard Hyrum Smith explain them and now or then he thought it was right. But a few weeks before the murder Hyrum denied that Joseph had the revelation concerning it but said that it referred to ancient times; and it was published [so] in the Neighbor. After I saw it I said to Mr. Haven: “What do you think of that? Is it not a plain contradiction to what you told me? What do you think of it?” He said that he supposed Hyrum saw what a disturbance it was making and thought he would say it on account of their being much excitement.

When the news reached the governor of the destruction of the press and of the trouble in Nauvoo, he hastened here as fast as possible just in time to save an attack upon the city of Nauvoo. Writs were then issued for the Smith’s and others to bring them before the proper authorities for trial. When they were taken to Carthage, it was with difficulty the governor saved their lives. The repeated outrageous laws they had made, made the inhabitants hate the very sight of them. One example: whoever was heard speaking against the [Nauvoo] city council, charter, or ordinances should be fined five hundred dollars…

Dear Mother: I have seen some sorrowful days since I left you and some happy ones. But I can tell you it is a sorrowful time here at present. Those that stood up for Joseph before his death are getting divided among themselves.

I have since learned that it was a mistake concerning the governor leaving only eight men with Joseph, but that he left a large company. Willard Richards and John Taylor were in jail with them.

August 9: Yesterday I attended a conference in Nauvoo. I suppose Martha will give you the particulars of it. The twelve were appointed to take charge of all the concerns of the Church both spiritual and temporal. Brigham Young said that if he had been here, he wouldn’t have consented to give Joseph up and he would be damned if he would give himself up to the law of the land. He would see them all in hell first; the Church, and then he said he would see all Creation in Hell before he would. These statements are correct, and they needn’t any [of them] attempt to deny them. If they do, they are ignorant of the matter or they are willful liars…

Sarah Scott

At my wife’s request I write a few words…Joseph and Hyrum Smith are murdered; Samuel is dead and buried. The Smiths are all gone the way of all the earth except William, and why all this murder and death in the Smith family? I believe it is because they taught the people of God to transgress His holy laws as did the sons of Eli of old;…

You will likely hear a great deal about Joseph’s innocence such as: “I go like a lamb to the slaughter, and if I die, I die an innocent man.” All these statements, I believe, are false and got up for the purpose of reconciling the minds of the Church. I believe they had not the least idea that they were going to be murdered. Hyrum said the last time I heard him preach, which was only a few days before he and Joseph were taken to Carthage, that their enemies could not kill brother Joseph, for he had a great work to accomplish yet. There was also considerable said in Carthage which proves beyond dispute that they did not expect death. They blame the apostates, as they term them, with being accessory to the murder of the Smiths. This is not the case: the Laws and Fosters were not in the state at the time the murder was committed, and if they had been here, they would have been the last to stain their hands with human blood!

Remember me to all your family in the kindest manner…

Yours respectfully,

Isaac Scott

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Mormon History, Nauvoo and tagged , . Bookmark the permalink.

90 Responses to Summer 1844: Sorrowful Times in Nauvoo

  1. setfree says:


    Tell you what. You show me how you “know” this:

    “you will obtain salvation without effort…you will obtain simply by acknowledging the supreme leader… personal responsibility [is] absolved by a simple nod of the head in the direction of the fuhrer in the sky… if you don’t acknowledge him he will personally throw you into fire for eternity…fascist theology”

    about Biblical Christianity, and then I’ll return the favor and tell you what I mean about “along these lines”

    And… what do you believe about Adam?

  2. Free says:

    What does the mormon god personally do to those cast into “outer darkness” as outlined by mainstream lds?

  3. falcon says:

    Jason Rae,
    This is my last post of the day and your question is way off topic. If I get you right, what you’re asking is something akin to a “salvation process”. I’m not aware of a “salvation process” in Biblical Christianity. I think if you’re curious about this topic, all you have to do is read the Book of Acts. That Book of the Bible is evangelical in its scope and outlines the preaching of the Apostles and other first century disciples of Jesus. In the Book of Romans the Apostle Paul does a good job of laying out natural man’s condition. I guess in-other-terms it could be called a problem statement. He then lays out the solution.
    But something tells me you’re here to play games and that you think you have cleverly laid some sort of trap. Christianity has been around for 2,000 years and there’s really no secret about God’s redemptive work through His Son Jesus Christ. Basically if you want the 1, 2, 3 of salvation it is that man’s sin separates him from God. God in His mercy has extended to man, through His grace, the gift of eternal life. That gift is received by faith in the Son of God who, while we were still sinners, gave His life (shed His blood) for our sins. As in the “type” from the OT, the death angel passed over the homes that had the blood of the lamb on the door jam (which indicated who was residing there). Covered by Christ blood we are spared separation from God for eternity. I get the feeling you have a preoccupation with or some sort of hell fetish and we could talk about that but this whole discussion takes us way off topic. It has, in fact, been dealt with at length on different threads at different times.
    Now the Bible is pretty clear on all of this so if you have a problem with any of it I guess you’ll just have to seeth in anger and take it up with God who has revealed Himself and His plan of salvation in His Word the Holy Bible. Or you could seek another path and hope that it gets you were you want to go in eternity.

  4. Michael P says:

    Jason, a quick answer to what happens to those who do not have faith: they go to hell. Pretty simple answer…

    So, what’s your trap?

  5. HankSaint says:

    Well Falcon, at least we LDS don’t dictate to God the rules of salvation, or consider out selves the chosen in terms of being elected to Salvation, not by personal choice, but by the Grace of God he chose you. Just a good reason I love the Gospel, wherein I choose to serve God and God did not choose me. Don’t you just love the doctrine of agency, I do. I can work my way to heaven, by choosing to show forth Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost. Isn’t it wonderful, you fellow LDS’s, that the Heavens are not closed, and we never tell God he can or can’t provide more scripture, Interesting indeed. Richard.

  6. Ralph says:


    My comments about the Bible were just tongue in cheek. Jason made the comment that the writer of the letters above wrote the letters 11 months or more after the events they reference so their memory needs to be called into question. Someone else quipped that some LDS people wrote something 5 or 6 months after the event so using the logic by Jason their memory needs to be called into question. So I just stated that the Gospels were written years or decades after the events so the writers’ memories need to be questioned. And finally the writer of Genesis wrote about the events centuries after they happened (so logically he could not still be alive anyway) so his memory definitely needs to be called into question.

    Basically I am just saying that it doesn’t matter about memory recall otherwise why believe in the Bible. 🙂

  7. falcon says:

    I’m guessing that the moderators really don’t want this thread to turn into a discussion on election or Calvinism as oppossed to Armininism et. al. These are perspecives offered by theologians and really don’t have a lot to do with the ten or so basic tennets of the Christian faith, none of which Mormonism subsribes to. If Mormonism makes you happy I’m cool with that but so can any variety of drugs but the druggie usually ends up dead. Hell is a pretty unpleasant result of rejecting the God of the Bible and His plan of salvation, but ignorance is bliss at least in this world.

    I’m still trying to figure out your point on memory. First of all the Scott’s letter describing what was going on in Nauvoo isn’t all that complex. They provide a general overview of the events. Your last sentence contradicts what you said initially in the first part of your post. So I’m confused. Are you doubting the Scott’s recall of the events or not?
    Also, it’s my understanding that the writers of the Bible were doing so under the inspiration and direction of the Holy Spirit. It’s God’s Word, after all, as revealed to men.

  8. Jason Rae says:

    setfreefalcon – My question still stands (that you refuse to answer) What does the evangelical God personally do to those who do not go through the salvation process as outlined by mainstream Christianity?

    You ask falcon what the “salvation process” is but you know what I mean. In evangelical Christianity there is a “salvation moment” wherein the individual is “saved” is there not? And that without this moment of acknowledgement to the supreme ruler you will personally suffer eternal torture at His hands – correct? He will personally put you in the fire/oven etc for eternity without that acknowledgement or acceptance of Him.

    Believe in me, acknowledge me and you will have to do nothing – you will not need to take part in your own salvation the supreme leader will do it all. If you do not acknowledge me you will suffer eternal punishment by fire. Correct? Of course it is.

    Now in evangelical Christianity God is a non-human species therefore he is an alien. Also you were created by fiat by a non-human species alien God with a penchant for torture.

    So if we are to nutshell the evangelical worldview it would be that the great God that holds this earth in orbit is a non-human species alien fascist that creates non-alien human beings to “love”.

    Are you starting to clue in to your fascist theology? And this is no joke falcon but actual evangelical Christian thought.

    When Hitler throws women and small children into the fire pits alive here on earth we rightly call it the greatest evil known to man – when the evangelical God does it in heaven you guys call it righteous “justice” or a “just punishment”. YOU of course have acknowledged the fuhrer so therefore you are “safe” or “saved” from his eternal wrath.

    If setfree claims to have been LDS I for one don’t believe it. If he had been he would know LDS theology is a thousand miles away from this nonsense.

  9. Jason Rae says:

    Thank God for Joseph Smith dropping a nuclear bomb on this depravity. You have perverted the meaning of the Atonement by absolving yourself of personal responsibility and preaching your salvation without effort. You call evil good just because your supreme leader is doing the evil in the afterlife torture pits, you promote an alien non-human species as your God, and deny the divine eternal nature of man by teaching fiat creation by an alien thug. In short the cosmic fingerprints have been lifted from your theology and matched to the same hands responsible for the world’s foremost evil deeds.

    So are you 100% sure about who exactly it is that you worship?

  10. Michael P says:


    I’ll say if you wish to call God a fascist for only saving those who believe, OK. Have at it. It is very easy to say that when you don’t believe, and it helps justify the non-belief.

    But if you look at the issue from an idea of justice, pure and unadulterated justice, it is very hard to make that comparison. Trying to find a reason why he is unjust is tough, except that he rejects those who are unclean and separated from him, and then if you really look at what it means to be unclean and separated from him its not so bad…

    Do you disagree?

  11. HankSaint says:

    Quote Falcon, “This is a sick system Joseph Smith created and Brigham Young perfected. Young especially when we consider his blood-atonement doctrine. Kudos to the Scott’s delivered across time, to a period when it took some real intestinal fortitude to stand-up and call it the way they saw it. Our exMormon friends who post here grabbed back their power, dignity, self-worth and most importantly…..they gained their salvation.”

    Richard states, “I’m guessing that the moderators really don’t want this thread to turn into a discussion on The Blood Atonement or ex-mormons and dignity, self-worth and how they regained their Salvation.” What does the above have anymore to do with this thread then me presenting the foolishness of a Closed Creedal Religion, which states quiet frankly that Heaven are closed, and God is dead. Always interesting to find the same talking points being discussed over and over, but lets not discuss the problems of Creedal Christianity, A bible, a bible, we have a Bible and want no more. Interesting indeed. Richard.

  12. Jason Rae says:

    MP – The point is far more ominous than a matter of justice. The very inspiration and power behind the likes of Khmer Rouge, Hitler, Stalin etc has infiltrated evangelical Christianity. That’s the big picture point. The evangelical worldview as I outlined it has all of the same facets of evil except the locale has been moved to the afterlife and God is the executioner of the innocent women and children.

    The communist/evangelical parallels are striking:

    Communist Ideology: Supreme ruler that must be obeyed or the subject will suffer punishment by extreme torture and/or death.

    Evangelical Theology: Supreme being that must be acknowledged/accepted or the subject will suffer punishment by extreme torture for billions of years.

    Communist Ideology: Subsistence without effort – very little is required of you, in exchange for your freedom the state will save you, takes care of everything in return for obeisance to the supreme ruler

    Evangelical Theology: Salvation without effort – very little is required of you, in exchange for your belief in the supreme ruler you need take no part in your own salvation.

    Mainstream Christianity has been infiltrated and it’s time to come out of the cult of fascism and fascist salvation.

    “…by the power of God I translated the Book of Mormon from hieroglyphics, the knowledge of which was lost to the world, in which wonderful event I stood alone, an unlearned youth, to combat the worldly wisdom and multiplied ignorance of eighteen centuries, with a new revelation…” – Joseph Smith

  13. HankSaint says:

    Quote Falcon, “If Mormonism makes you happy I’m cool with that but so can any variety of drugs but the druggie usually ends up dead. Hell is a pretty unpleasant result of rejecting the God of the Bible and His plan of salvation, but ignorance is bliss at least in this world.”

    I imagine that the Bible and most of the Creedal concepts as inerrant as they are, must be satisfying enough to close the mind to any additional light and knowledge your dead God has to propose. As for me, I believe as do millions of others, one can draw closer to God by reading the Book of Mormon, a second witness that, ” Jesus is the Christ”. After all its either true, or its a piece of fiction, yet not one person has proven or provided any evidence to counter its claims. Interesting.


  14. Michael P says:

    See, Jason, you continue the fallcy by not addressing the justice God requires.

    And a point I forgot to bring out is the mercy he gives because there is no other way, and yet if we do accept him, we are completely forgiven and are not bound by anything else we did.

    Anyway, I think your comparison to these tyrants is interesting in light of the severe fines for speaking out against the city council in Nauvoo. Tyrants? What did they do when someone spoke out against it? Destroyed them, right? The message? Don’t mess with us…

  15. HankSaint says:

    Guess what Michael, after years of harassment, attacks, raping, being kicked out of every town they tried to develop and with the threat of extermination, I would also be the first in line to tear down the presses if I felt they would bring more of the same.
    Just my opinion of course, kind of like our Founding Fathers taking a stand against oppression and intolerance.


  16. Michael P says:


    Not really the same, is it? The founders just sought independence, not to impose heavy fines and tear down that which was in opposition to their views. It really sounds more to me like them trying to assert their will on a community, especially given that those writing were mostly once of their fold. Maybe it was them who were more akin go the FFs.

    I also have to ask why they were run out of every town? Not an easy question to answer, sure, but a fair one to ask. If they were so good, why not show it all facets of life, including how to treat dissenters? Seriously, why not?

  17. falcon says:

    Looks like we’ve got some militant, mean and nasty TBMs paying us a visit here. Frankly I don’t know where to start. Let me try. HankSaint has a very selective view of “persecution” of the Mormons. They wrecked the printing press because the thought that they’d be persecuted for what was being exposed? Their own people were exposing them. The fact of the matter is that the leadership wasn’t going to accept anyone not going along with Joseph Smith’s sexual deviancy or his weird and aberrent doctrines. This was a bad dude! Your support of him reveals a lot about your own character. I think you better take a closer look at Mormon history and why Mormons had such difficulty getting along with their nonMormon neighbors not to mention their own members.
    Closing my mind? That’s rich coming from a Mormon. The problem is that the LDS Titanic has hit the iceberg, it’s sinking and you folks keep running around trying to rearrange the deck chairs thinking that some how that will save this fraud started by Joseph Smith. The Mormon church now has ten people processing resignation letters were a few years ago they had two. Rant and rave and scream but the flow out the LDS back door will continue unabaited. People figure it out. It’s not that difficult to get at the truth of Mormonism if someone has an open mind.
    But I’m fully aware of the cult mindset that permeates the TBM LDS folks. I’ll cut you some slack knowing that clear thinking is not one of the characteristics of those afflicted by TBMitis.

  18. setfree says:

    Do you not read the Bible, or do you just not believe it?

    “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first,
    and also to the Greek…

    For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that
    are past, through the forbearance of God…

    Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness…

    Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure

    if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our Justification. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God…

    For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly…

    But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should
    be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth
    fruit unto God

  19. setfree says:

    Would you have us believe that your “gospel” is better than the one God gave? How could it be any easier to be forgiven and be given a new life (slate washed clean, new heart, new desires) than to just come to God to get it?

    Your church teaches that God will forgive you ONLY IF you keep all of the commandments, principles, ordinances, and covenants. You can only get your temple covenants if you pay all your full tithing, have had no bad thoughts about any LDS leadership, etc etc etc….

    You really have your accusations backwards.

    In fact, pardon the observation, but you seem to be quite in hell already. I haven’t heard such gnashing of teeth in a long time


  20. Jason Rae says:

    Poland’s Anne Frank, Rutka Laskier died in a gas chamber in August 1943 at the Auschwitz concentration camp. She was 14.

    According to evangelical theology the moment Rutka died she was met by God and upon the despot tyrant realizing this young girl did not say a 5 minute prayer to acknowledge Him while on earth he’s going to show her what real hell is. The Nazi evil was child’s play. So God takes Rutka by the hand and personally leads her to a very hot lake of fire concentration camp and explains that Hitler throwing people “alive into furnaces” is an excellent way to punish unbelievers like her. She protests that she lived a good life, gave her time substance and money to the poor and needy etc etc and that the Nazis were the true evil but the alien will hear none of it.

    Poor Rutka had no idea the alien thug god is a thousand times more evil than the Nazis that destroyed her family and life.


    As overseer of concentration camps & extermination camps Heinrich Himmler coordinated the killing of millions of Jews, between 200,000 and 500,000 Roma, many prisoners of war, and possibly another three to four million Poles, communists, or other groups. His favorite method of torture was to watch and listen to Jews burning alive in the fire pits.

    Shortly before he died at the end of the war legend has it that Heinrich Himmler repented of his evil and in one of the most sincere episodes that this mortal coil can embark upon he accepted Jesus Christ as his savior. Himmler said of that moment:

    ” I didn’t just say a sinners prayer.. I prayed much longer than that… …I realized that I was incapable of saving myself so I allowed Him to step into my new belief and He changed me from the inside out. I was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise to be His eternally and I have an assurance that I am completely known by Jesus and that I am His forever. ”

    Heinrich Himmler is now in heaven with the alien God. Rutka is burning in Hell forever.

    You people are deranged.

  21. jeffrey b says:

    Jason Rae,

    I don’t know if any Evangelical could really believe that’s what happened in your example there between our all loving, righteous, fair God and His creation.

    If God is righteous and fair as the Bible states, it wouldn’t make sense that he would send someone to Hell that wasn’t given a fair chance at accepting Jesus Christ as their redeemer. Does the Bible say what He does in situations like that? No. But, I refuse to believe an all loving God would do that. I also refuse to JUDGE these peoples eternal residence myself. I have faith that God being the most righteous and fair judge in existence would make the most righteous and fair judgement for people just like Anne Frank.

    I don’t need the Bible to explain what happens in their situation. The bible shows the righteousness and fairness of our God and why HE deserves our faith. Not just faith that the Savior stepped in and took on sin for us, but faith that no matter what happens, HE is in control and HE will make the wisest decisions, even decisions we cant comprehend.

  22. Michael P says:


    Are we?

    Have you addressed God’s justice in your post? No, you continue to talk about the human emotive side of this, but our ways are not his ways. He also expresses his justice clearly in the Bible, including the OT. It is there.

    Another point that needs to be considered: we read that God’s name is written in nature so all can see, so that none will be without excuse. Is it possible to reach him through seeing his name written on hist creation, yes. What does this mean? I am not sure, except that God is just and the king of all.

  23. Jason Rae says:

    Excellent jeffrey b. It’s good to see at least one person on this blog break free from evangelical Christianity. Every single evangelical I’ve explained the above scenario to says, and I quote:

    “God is to be praised for his just punishment of [Rutka’s] sin.” And that’s putting the normal response mildly. I’ve had evangelicals praise God with hands raised for burning Rutka in fire for eternity and welcoming the mass murder Heinrich Himmler into His abode.

    Are you ready jeffrey to come completely out of the cult of fascist theology? It sounds to me that you are. By what you posted you destroy the entire creedal afterlife motif and are ready for the good news of the true gospel of Jesus Christ:

    For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

    There is no non-human species alien fascist God floating around in space. The false god was put to rest on April 6 1820.

    Michael. Free agency reigns supreme here and in the afterlife. God does not personally cast anyone into Hell or outer darkness, rather, people put themselves there but your view of Hell is exactly what one would take if they viewed themselves as simply fiat creations of some alien being out in space. Again that false god has fallen as well.

  24. setfree says:

    Jason Rae,
    You said: “The false god was put to rest on April 6 1820.”

    You give praise to Joseph Smith, whose teachings have raised up a new breed of people that say in their hearts “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High”
    (see Isaiah 14:12-21)

    Is Lucifer your god then?

    If you are going to claim that evangelicals say this:
    ““God is to be praised for his just punishment of [Rutka’s] sin.” And that’s putting the normal response mildly. I’ve had evangelicals praise God with hands raised for burning Rutka in fire for eternity and welcoming the mass murder Heinrich Himmler into His abode.”
    then you ought to at least have some video or tape or names or something to back it up. Otherwise, maybe you’re just lying?

    Are you going to share what it is you believe about Adam?

  25. Jason Rae says:

    setfree, you and jeffrey b. have now both distanced yourself from proven, known evangelical doctrine. Why do you need a tape when you have thousands of years of Christian history?

    You really want to use Isaiah 14 to impugn the 1st century Christian doctrine of theosis? As a “former member” setfree you clearly were not paying attention were you? This is twice now. Were you held under too long at the baptism?

    I am the one that has lifted the cosmic fingerprints of your theology to unmask the real identity of the one you worship. The alien. The non-human species. The one that stands at the gate of the eternal fire pits and joyfully listens to the eternal screams of 14 year old girls. They burn and your God turns his back on them. They scream and he walks away to join the likes of Heinrich Himmler in eternal joy. So called. On earth we know Lucifer is the author of such activities. Why does your God do the works of Lucifer? Are you starting to see the seriousness of the infiltration? The trojan horse that has snuck in? The fifth column that is in your midst?

    If you deny one shred of my prior post you break free of evangelical Christianity. It appears you have done just that, are you also ready to come out of the cult of fascist salvation? Your salvation without effort? Your life of being on the dole? Your lazy idea that you get everything for free?

    The beautiful and glorious doctrine of Theosis, man’s divine nature, eternal progression and genetic relationship to God reigns supreme in Restored Christianity. If you want to mock it via a book of Jews that you know absolutely nothing about feel free but you will remain forever bound to the alien you now worship.

    [Link removed by moderator]

  26. falcon says:

    This is kind of interesting. It’s, I believe, the setting up of the strawman so it can be knocked over. It reminds me of what proabortion people do in an attempt to bolster their killing of the unborn. The scenario usually goes something like: “Oh yea, I suppose if a deaf-blind cognitivly disabled twelve year old girl is brutally raped by her step father and she gets pregnant, you’d make her have the baby.”
    The tactic is to attempt to make your opponent look as absolutely as bad as possible while justifying the killing of the unborn. Our Mormon friends are attempting the same thing here and at the same time straying as far away from the subject at hand as possible.
    Let’s see if I can play the game: So Mormons do you support the wanton rape of a 14 year old girl by a man claiming to be a prophet of God. It’s the same as if you’ve handed over every fourteen year old girl to be brutalized by this child molester, including Anne Frank. According to your prophet sexually assaulting children is the way to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom where he will be a god and continue to assualt women.
    I don’t know. How long do you TBMs want to play this game? I guess it’s better than having to face the fact that having rejected the God of the Bible you’ve decided to make yourselves god. Your attempts to put the Christians on the defensive are pretty pathetic. But if you want to continue to play rather than find the truth that’s your perogative.

  27. Free says:

    Jason Rae….I’m going to make you happy here for a second … and give you some attention … which you obviously need.

    You’re reasoning is childish and sophmoric…way over the top emotionally.

    You’re like a college freshman that went to some kind of a protest/rally, and knows just enough of the “rhetoric” to make other’s believe you really know what you’re talking about. What year of college are you in? And what college do you go to? Berkeley? Really…please tell me.

    Maybe there’s a new strand of mormon hate developing somewhere else on this globe.

    If I had to choose between some guy like joe smith, who dabbled in the occult, was arrested and tried for witchcraft, claimed he saw a great light, changed the version of what he saw several times, had followers who openly despised blacks (brigham young and company), and who also claimed that Adam was our only true god and the god that we are supposed to worship, hid his polygamous relationships from his wife, “borrowed” rites and practices from masons for his own temple rituals, and whose followers claim constantly changing revelation to fit the whitewash version of its church’s history (like the latest introduction to the bom) …

    If I had to choose between your savior joe smith
    and my Savior, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the Bible and the Savior of all mankind….I’m gonna go with ….hmmmmmmm….let me think for a moment…..yeah….it’s Jesus.

    Right now Jason, all you’re doing is spreading your own personal (and weird) version of mormon hate, mormon confusion, and mormon over-the-top-emotionalism.

    You’re a perfect example of mankind making something as easy as Jesus Christ, the Scriptures and Goodness, and twisting it into something dark, confusing, elitist and sectarian … but that’s the lds way isn’t it?

    Turn from your wickednes and follow Jesus my brother.

  28. “No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office after having the Word of Wisdom properly taught him; and he, the official member, neglecting to comply with and obey it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.117).

  29. Ralph says:


    On the Mormon Outreach Sydney website there is an article discussing what happens to those who never heard about Jesus in this life. It says –

    ”Again Hebrew 9:27 says, “ …it is appointed unto a man once to die, but after this the judgement.” Is it fair to condemn those who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Yes. The Bible teaches that God is just in condemning those who have never heard the Gospel in the full and formal sense.

    In the first place, those who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ are lost people too. Why? Our deepest problem is not lack of knowledge about God but refusal to acknowledge God as God. All humanity, including upright and moral people, offends God by rebelling against him. We deliberately rebel against him, shaking our fists at him and/or simply ignore him as if he did not exist. Sin is rebellion against God. The Bible teaches that all human beings are born in sin (Psalm 51:5) and are by nature the children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). The apostle Paul says, quoting the Old Testament, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God” (Romans 3:10-11).

    Secondly, The Bible teaches that there is no salvation apart from Chris’s redemptive work (John 14:6, 1Timothy 2:5) “ Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”(Acts 4:12).

    Thirdly, because no one is completely without opportunity, all have known God, but they have suppressed the truth (Romans 1:18-25). Roman 1:20 teaches that through general revelation they know about eternal power and Godhead. However, humankind cannot clearly perceive them in general revelation, as sin has marred the witness of general revelation. All are without excuse.”
    emphasis theirs

  30. Ralph says:

    JeffreyB (contd),

    When it comes to the scenario of Henreich Himmler, many of the Evs on this site subscribe to death bed repentance and point to the theif on the cross for evidence of this belief. The theif acknowledged Jesus and repented and Jesus promised that he would be in paradise with Jesus afterwards. The main thing they point out is the sincerity of the prayer/belief. And then they say its up to God as He is the only one who can read the person’s heart and know how sincere it is. So in the Himmler scenario, according to the Evs position, IF he was sincere then yes he would go to heaven. IF he was not sincere then he will not go to heaven.

    Another thing to remember, the girl was a Jew and she lived in a Christian society – she had the opportunity to hear about Jesus and most likely had heard about Him, but rejected Him. In this case, besides what I wrote in my last post, she had knowledge and did not use it so it is fair and just for God to send her to hell.

  31. Ward says:

    I have been reading but not commenting for a few days. I started out a couple of days ago thanking Jason for the tenor of his first post. It seemed at the time that he would be more polite in his dialogical pursuits. I have to say that since then I have become quite surprised and alarmed at the tone and tenor of his comments.

    Jason, you have truly an imaginative perspective on things. And, this perspective is offered to the rest of us with a full serving of bile. As frustrating as Ralph can be at times, at least one is left with a sense of having had an adult conversation. It is hard not to read your posts without having a sense of sadness, mingled with incredulity and sorrow. I have to say that even in the midst of this state you are in, His grace is enough for you, too.

  32. merryjane says:

    I’ve been a lurker on andoff now for a few months but I’m now compelled to write. As a Christian I can’t believe what I’m hearing from Jason Rae but if I am to be completely honest it has made me really think.

    Go back and read the Himmler salvation prayer, it sounds truly sincere and real. Why would he not be saved as we are? As hard as it is to take it seems Jason has stated our doctrine correctly.


  33. HankSaint says:

    F states, “Looks like we’ve got some militant, mean and nasty TBMs paying us a visit here. Frankly I don’t know where to start. Let me try. HankSaint has a very selective view of “persecution” of the Mormons.

    Richard states, “Hilarious good buddy, Since you didn’t know where to start, just take a good introspection of yourself and your world view of The Church of Jesus Christ. There are two ways at looking at the truth, FALCONS delusions of non persecution of the Saints confirmed by his total lack of historical knowledge. We can let that slide since failure on his part to do any personal research is obvious. Using the standard Talking points which he borrows, his laziness is apparent in his defense of apostate mormons. Again, I have no problem stating if I had been there, my defense of God and Church would supersede the cowardly acts and friends of Falcon, who he desperately tries to protect with his limited knowledge of the events leading up to the Printing Press and Stores destruction.

    F states, “Closing my mind? That’s rich coming from a Mormon. The problem is that the LDS Titanic has hit the iceberg, it’s sinking and you folks keep running around trying to rearrange the deck chairs thinking that some how that will save this fraud started by Joseph Smith.
    But I’m fully aware of the cult mindset that permeates the TBM LDS folks. I’ll cut you some slack knowing that clear thinking is not one of the characteristics of those afflicted by TBMitis

    Richard states, “Well they must be building all these new Meeting House for the mice partner, and since mice don’t pay tithing we would expect your predications to have some merit. But I don’t see mice filling the pews of the newly paid for and dedicated Churches and Temples, so it’s interesting that as usual, your facts must be coming from the same source as your plagiarized talking points do. Hmm. Interesting indeed”.

    Regards, Richard.

  34. HankSaint says:

    Michael, you know very little about LDS history and even less about the Founding Fathers and the events that led up to our Countries Independence. The founders did not even know in the beginning they were fighting for independence, so get your history right before making such lame statements.

    Michael states, “Not really the same, is it? The founders just sought independence, not to impose heavy fines and tear down that which was in opposition to their views. It really sounds more to me like them trying to assert their will on a community, especially given that those writing were mostly once of their fold.

    Richard states, With few exceptions the history of humanity has been a violent and tyrannical one. In the words of Rousseau, “Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains.” Though the Founding Fathers of our nation probably didn’t even realize it caught up in the moment of their time, but it was just this trend of tyranny and enslavement of humanity they were attempting to reverse. It seems that tyranny was a major player in the events that led to our independence, and freedom to worship in peace and with harmony with neighbors, friends and families.

  35. merryjane says:

    I’ve been bugged so I’ve been reading these posts again and it seems to me that if the Rutka girl did not accept Christ in this life while she had the chance she is indeed in hell right now. Is that not true? I have never viewed things in this way before in this fashion that has been shown. Does anyone know who this Jason Rae guy is? He takes himself to be quite confident it seems.

    I even woke my husband to refute this but to no avail at least not yet.


  36. setfree says:


    Jason Rae apparently owns “JosephSmith .com”. Right, Jason?

    I have been dwelling on the subject myself, and I think there is an important aspect of this that we haven’t yet covered.

    Which one of us here, including the Mormons, can actually give ourselves the position of GOD’S JUDGE?!! Even if the LDS were correct, and our god is just an exalted man, he still knows so much more than we do that we cannot even fathom how much more.

    Even the LDS god will cast to outer darkness those who he sees fit! If one of you LDS had a family member who went through the temple and got sealed, etc, and then left the church and came on a site like this one to expose the church’s secrets, wouldn’t your god send that family member to outer darkness? What if it were your own child? What would you think of your god if he sent your child to the mormon hell?

    Bible believers have an even higher standard than that for who we believe God is. We believe that we will never ever be able to fully comprehend Him. Thus, is there any way for us to be able to JUDGE HIM for what He does or doesn’t do?

    When the EV’s speak of understanding God’s love and fairness, that is what we mean. Jesus is the representative of God on earth… and look what He was like here! Fed people. Healed people. Had compassion!

    Our God, ladies and gentlemen, is more wise, more compassionate, more just, more noble, more wonderful than any of us can even imagine.

    So let’s not try to put ourselves in the position of trying to judge Him, yeah?

  37. falcon says:

    I’m a little confused on how the Mormon program works. I’m guessing that Anne Frank isn’t in the Celestial Kingdom and isn’t a goddess. However, Adolf Hitler, who has had all the super secret temple “work” done for him, is now a god. Isn’t that a strange deal the way the Mormon god works. Hitler, who killed six million Jews gets to be a god, but Anne Frank, who he was responsible for killing, gets what? I picked this up from Andy Watson. I’ll contact him and see where we can get the acutal documentation on this. If I remember right the paperwork is some where to be viewed. I’ll double check, but given how things work in Mormonism, my guess it’s true.
    Poor HankS, the dudes really got his magic underwear in a bunch here. Normally the Mormons just ignore me, hence I write for the lurkers and those questioning Mormonism. Hank baby, stop by the house some time and I’ll let you browse through my volumes of reference material. Judging from what you write, my guess is you’ve probably got five or six books, two or three of which you haven’t finished coloring yet. You’re a real prince buddy. Keep pouring out your hate.

  38. Wow!

    We’ve gone from a robust but polite interchange on the content of a letter written at the time of Joseph Smith’s death to a mud-slinging shout-em-up about hell and judgement.

    I think Ward is quite correct to remind us not to judge God on His judgements. Who would we rather judge us?

    Personally, I’m attracted to the idea that the ultimate judge of the world is one who came to it, lived in it, and died on a cross for its sins.

    That doesn’t make heaven the default destination for all, but it means that the way, which we could not possibly open, has been opened for us from the outside.

    “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” (Rev 22:17)

    Did you notice the “freely” bit?

    As far as judging the eternal destiny of others, “God is in heaven and you are on earth, so let your words be few.” (Ecc 5:2)

    Finally, I don’t particularly like the idea of hell (though wihtout it I’d have trouble with ultimate justice, which I do like). However, the Bible (which I take to be the Word of God) speaks about it as a present and future reality, so I don’t have the right to ignore it or change it.

    My problem then, is not qualitative (does hell exist?), but quantitative (what makes a person qualify for hell?).

    The answer to last point – we are all worthy of Hell, not one of us deserves to be in God’s heaven.

    “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:22-24).

    …Oh, and there’s that word “freely” again

  39. Andy Watson says:

    I’m not surprised that our Mormon visitors could turn a thread topic regarding Joseph Smith’s indiscretions and demise which lead to his downfall through the eyes of Mormons at the time via a letter back home to the family, into a World War II history class regarding certain Germans in the Nazi Party. Please, my non-LDS Christian brothers and sisters in Christ, do not fall into this trap by responding to these off-topic “rabbit trails”. Please quit taking “the bait” and giving the Jason Rae’s of the world the attention that they don’t deserve. Engaging in dialogue with some people is a waste of time.

    Also, please recognize that people like Jason Rae are demonstrating internal struggles and anger problems that cannot be resolved here on this blog. His vitriol is not worth responding to and based on the tone of his posts I would think the only remedy in the secular realm would be medication and counseling. Spiritually, he is lost and that is really the root problem of his anger. HankSaint (Richard? or whoever you are) is talking in the third person so it’s even wackier to follow. Anyway, I recommend taking a walk or other physical activity to blow off steam for the Mormon “hotheads” on here. They could pray, but Kolob is far away (somewhere) and their god is not omnipresent nor their holy ghost or their jesus (they can’t pray to him either) so I’d be frustrated too.

    The God of the Bible (the true God) is a righteous Judge. He will judge fairly. See Genesis 18:25; Psalm 19:9; 96:12-13. Only He can see the inward soul/heart of man. The characteristics and attributes of God as stated in the Bible give me no worry or concern on His mercy, fairness and righteous judging. Who is going to be doing the judging? The Father has appointed it to the Son (John 5:22). God has made it very clear that He gets no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekial 18:23, 32). He wants all to come to repentance and not perish spiritually; See 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9.

    Falcon told me that this topic has gotten off-topic on the Nazi Party members like Hitler and such so I thought it would be important to point out the hypocrisy of the LDS Church not to mention the outrage, confusion and bewilderment that non-LDS people have when they learn what the Utah Mormons have been up to in their temples.

    The true God forgives murder (1 John 1:9 – “all” sin). The Mormon god DOES NOT (D&C 42:18,79; 132:27). This causes quite a problem for the Mormon especially when it comes to Moses, but the bigger problem comes with the issue brought forth above by someone like Hitler.

    Adolf Hitler is directly responsible for the death of 6 million Jews. He was involved in the occult as were other high ranking Nazi Party members. Historical accounts say that Hitler committed suicide with no repentance. That wasn’t any concern for the Mormon Church.

    On December 10, 1993 in the London Temple, proxy work was done for Hitler in which he was baptized and received his endowment. On March 12, 1994 he was sealed to his parents (FILM CALL NUMBER 1903846). Hitler is on his way to godhood via eternal progression despite what D&C say about murder not being forgiven and the D&C Student Manual says about murderers:

    “Those who are guilty of murder are excommunicated from the Church. They may only be baptized with First Presidency approval.” (p. 83)

    Hitler never was a member of the Church while alive. For him to receive proxy work in the temple in 1993 I would figure Ezra Taft Benson would have to give approval. He was physically and mentally ill at the time so he may not have been thinking clearly. I would assume his first and second counselors would have stepped in like they were doing already quite a bit at that time. If so, why would they give approval for this? I doubt temple workers and leaders in London did whatever they wanted without approval in a matter like this. It doesn’t add up.

    Consider these LDS references on murder:

    “A murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears for the murder of Uriah, but he could only get it THROUGH HELL; he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 339)

    “Remission of sins by baptism WAS NOT to be preached to murderers. All the priests of Christendom might pray for a murderer on the scaffold forever, but COULD NOT avail so much as a gnat towards their forgiveness. There is no forgiveness for murderers” (Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 221)

    “Murderers are forgiven eventually but only in the sense that all sins are forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; they are not forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them. After they have paid the full penalty for their crime, they shall go on to a telestial inheritance.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 520)

    That seems pretty clear to me. I’m just wondering how Adolf Hitler fits into the above stated authoritative quotes and position of the LDS Church? If what is said above is true, Hitler cannot be forgiven of deliberately taking human life and it’s a “sin unto death” and he can only obtain the telestial kingdom, then why the baptism, endowment and sealing to parents in the temple? Why would anything be done for him in the temple? Why would Mormons enter the baptismal font and do anything in the name of Adolf Hitler? How’d you like to be the poor teenage “stand-in” who had to take on the name of Adolf Hitler that morning in London? Good grief!

    Yeah, Adolf can become a god in the Mormon program through proxy work that violates their own teachings. No, Anne Frank and Rutka Laskier can’t become goddesses in the Mormon program because temple work hasn’t been done for them by proxy. The Mormon god is okay with that and that is Mormon justice served out. Makes sense to me!

  40. mobaby says:

    I think Romans 9 answers these questions we have about man’s destiny and God’s hand in our redemption. Romans 9:14-24 clearly shows that God’s mercy and salvation are His to dispense as He pleases. These same scriptures indicate it is ridiculous for man to question God concerning these things – “the thing molded will not say to the molder, why have you made me like this?” Is God’s mercy and grace through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross large enough to cover a murderer? Yes, it is. There are several murderers who are counted among God’s prophets and leaders including Moses and David. Because someone dies at the hands of a brutal murderer does that guarantee them a special divine intervention in the afterlife? I can’t find such a notion supported by scripture. I think Falcon’s descriptions of Jason’s arguments as the classic fallacies given by pro-abortion apologists to pro-life folks to be completely awesome, because it is so RIGHT. I have been there and heard the pro-abortion apologista twist things to the point where the pro-life cause is seen as the greatest evil, when in reality it is abortion which is taking life everyday and pro-life folks who are trying to turn back the hands of death. I think the same parallel exists here. Jason is kicking against the gracious and saving God of Christianity by twisting our belief in a merciful God, while upholding a system established by a serial adulterer and abuser of young teen girls. A rank heresy perpetrated by a false prophet. The letters above from these disillusioned Mormons show the reality on the ground when Mormonism began. These letters were not written to persuade an audience, but were composed from the heart for loved ones. And these letters display a picture of a controlling society where schism over heresy is present, and people are questioning JS.

    If Joseph Smith dropped a nuclear bomb on anything, it was on the lives of those young teen girls he blackmailed into “marriage.”

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