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..and I thought my recent broadside to shematwater was indelicate.
From what I’ve seen here (from Mormon posters, mainly), I am pretty well convinced that the LDS church has truly restored New Testament religion.
The problem is, this religion is exactly what Jesus protested against.
And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:10-13
Jesus DID preach the gospel, directly to the proud law-keepers.
Matthew 12:1-8
Jesus preached the gospel to the self-appointed judges of law keeping.
A friend of mine is destroyed. She wants to get married in the temple but her fiance’ has had to work Sundays to keep his job and has not been able to tithe because he is losing his house. He is not “temple worthy” because he is poor. BLIND GUIDES! HYPOCRITES! BROOD OF VIPERS!
Jesus said, “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves” (Matthew 23:13, 15).
Joseph Smith said, “And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 316).
Whoa.
Woe, woe.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!” (Matthew 23:38).
Mormons, Jesus calls and waits for you. This is your call to repentance from the merciful God. Be gathered to Him and enter into the kingdom of heaven!
Isn’t it amazing how people can be so foolish as to buy this false gospel and stick their money into what is basically nothing more than a money machine. I’m hyper sensitive about who I give money to because their are religious rip-off artists all over the place. The false piety and pride that accompanies these religious idols is sickening. They get the “little people” to buy this false religion and then these (little people) work their fingers to the bone in order to satisfy the cult leaders.
I remember over thirty years ago having a moonie come to my door selling candy. He made it sound like he was from something legit. I still can see his glassy eyes and syrupy sweet manner. Having been trained to spot cults, I sent him on his way. The poor dupe believed that the moonies held the keys of eternal life for him.
It’s the same with the Mormons, however their holding out for the lie of godhood. The mind control techniques and brain washing and indoctrination are all the same, but first of all the cult has got to get the person to surrender their will and then fear “loss”.
What jerks, charlatans and rip-off artists these guys are.
I say more power to Adam’s Road. Nothing wrong with sifting and weeding out the weak-minded like setfree, liv4jc etc.
Nice, interesting and Humorous 🙂 Even if all your creeds, doctrines, and phony precepts were true, I would run the other direction and stake my fortunes and eternal life with those who stand by the same beliefs as I do.
Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost. So whatever people, friends, and family members believe in the above are the kind of friend and family I want to belong with forever.
No sitting on the clouds for me, no singing praises every day for eternity, and no playing the bongo drums or harps meet my standards or idea of fun, so adios amigos, I’m off to fellowship with TBM’s, and the Prophets and Apostles, where we will gladly be exploring the universe.
So if your right, woe, count me out. 🙂
Regards, Richard.
Faith– what is it and who is it?
Repentance– from what exactly?
Baptism– By whom and for what purpose?
The Gift of the Holy Ghost– are you sure its the Holy Spirit?
Hank, you say if we are right, count you out. What an arrogant and sad thing to say. If we are right, and what we say about God is right, you’ll just flip him off?
Is this because your comfortable in your belief system? Are you saying you are not open to anything more comfortable?
If Jesus is who we say he is, and you reject him, you will be very uncomfortable indeed. And those who stay with you in your current comfort you will remain with, and all will be very uncomfortable.
The Bible never says being a Christ follower should be comfortable. No where in there does it espressly say life should be bliss. Rather, difficult decisions must be made, and that we must really separate ourselves from that which is comfortable. In fact, to be blunt, in many ways, life might just suck under Christ. Believing in him will not produce happiness all around. Look at Paul, for instance, who spent a good part of his life in prison. Most of the apostles were killed for their belief.
But what it will provide is contentment and peace. No matter our situation, we will know that Christ is our lord and that we will spend eternity with him. If that means being on clouds and singing praises for him every day, that’s what it means. We’ll be with our savior, and our glory won’t matter a thing.
Our safety and eternity is assurred because Jesus is wonderful, and not because we are.
Dang,
That Hanksaint he’s a goin’ places. Can we live on your planet Hank? Will you please be our Gawwd too? Anyone seen that movie Dumb and Dumber?
Jason, I have never been a Mormon. I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, which is another cult, who instead of following one false prophet follows a group of false prophets. Do you not see that all of the sound evidence against your faith presented here and all of the exegesis of scripture that is done by Christians who post here is for your benefit? If we hated you as much as you believe nobody would provide any meaningful content whatsoever. I admit that I use sarcasm and I occasionally go off on a blathering tirade about the most ridiculous elements of your doctrine and church history, but sometimes absurdity is best demonstrated by drawing an issue to its farthest logical conclusion.
I have been to the link from your name. You need to repent my friend. That’s just a disgusting display of idolotry for Joseph Smith. I have yet to see a Christian with such a display of worship of any of the Apostles or OT prophets (and Roman Catholics don’t count. They are not Christians. They’re idoloters also). If you truly love Christ then glorify Him, and not JS or the LDS organization. Believe it or not, we believe you are the one who is weak minded (imagine one of Hank’s little smily face dealies here).
HankSaint, this is the second time I’ve heard you express the belief that if one of us is wrong then it’s ok because we’ll be living in our own little slice of heaven somewhere separated from each other, but with others of like belief. Where does that come from?
I want to say “Thank You” to MRM, Sharon, and Aaron, and anyone else involved for running this site and giving those of us who have hearts for the lost the opportunity to put our knowledge to use. I’m especially thankful that God has brought determined Mormons here so that we can witness to them. Still praying for all of you.
Hank keeps saying that were going to be sitting on clouds playing harps and drums, Where do you get this crazy idea from? It is not taught in the Bible.
Then you said, if we are correct you still would not believe, That speaks volumes. You really do hate God, You said if we were correct, then if were correct and our God is real you would still reject him. So that also means you would purposely lead others astray. Wow, you are a wolf in sheeps clothing, I would hate to be you standing before God on judgment day, when He reminds you of what you said. Rick b
I never ceased to be amazed by the sheer hypocrisy of the MC blog.
You have the audacity to make all kinds of false accusations against the leaders of the LDS Church (as typified by this puerile piece from Adam’s Road). I personally know a number of the gentleman so viciously vilified in this video. These humble servants of the Lord Jesus Christ have dedicated their lives to the selfless service of others. They are the very picture of sobriety and humility. Indeed, Gorrdon B. Hinckley, who I knew personally, was one the the most sincere and humble individuals I have ever met.
Compare and contrast the leaders of the LDS Church to those of Evangelicals: Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, John Hagee, Benny Hinn, Bill Keller, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard etc. The list reads like a veritable Rogues Who’s Who.
Evangelicalism – especially televangelicalism is synonymous with sexual perversion and scandal, drug abuse, marital infidelity, financial scandal, and immorality of every conceivable kind.
What Hypocrites!
Evangelical leaders live the high life with their private jets, fleets of Mercedes, and palatial mansions – paid from the misappropriated money stolen from the humble offerings of their followers.
What Hypocrites!
Really, is there no end to the hypocrisy of MC?
The song in this post quotes from Matthew 23.
I wanted to just point out a few of the Pharisee-LDS GA comparisons made.
1. They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Look at the list of TO DO’s handed down from the LDS religious elite. It is enough to make very very good Mormon women cry after church, because they are JUST NOT DOING ENOUGH!
2. They love the best places at feast, the best seats in the synagogues.
Again, the LDS religious elite, up front in their big expensive building, sitting there with all their pretense of perfection. Are they REALLY perfect? Are they? If not, why do they keep pushing a religion that is not going to get anyone into heaven?
3. For a pretense make long prayers, therefore you will receive the greater condemnation.
How many long, boring prayers have these guys said, in an effort to sound as holy as possible?
4. You cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
Men in suits, women in dresses, perfectly manicured lawns, gorgeous buildings. All of this to portray perfection to the outside world, while inside the people are hurting from lack of being able to say that they are not perfect, that they are having problems. People dying without the tools they need to be freed from their sin. But dress it up! dress it up! make it look good! and meanwhile, lead people away from the Jesus of the Bible, who wants to be one-on-one with these people, instead of having you as a go-between.
These men, the ones in the slide show, are either hopelessly lost in their own self-righteousness, or deliberately deceiving the lay-Mormons.
(Romans 10:2?)
Crispin, I don’t worship any of those “evangelicals”, but YHWH/Jesus alone, the one taught from the Bible alone.
By the way, when will you see that Jesus’ “church” is NOT a religious organization???
I thought this would be a good place to put this.
Yesterday, I went looking through “Matthew” to find what happened in each case someone came to Jesus with a request/question.
See if you notice what I noticed. In each instance, look to see if the person asking the question believes they are good/sinless/”worthy”, what they ask, how they perceive Jesus (i.e. what honor/title do they give him?) and how Jesus responds.
Matt 8:2-3
Matt 8:5-13
Matt 8:19-20
Matt 8:21-22
Matt 8:25-26
Matt 9:2-7
Matt 9:20-22
Matt 9:27-29
Matt 12:10-13
Matt 12:38-40
Matt 14:28-31
Matt 15:1-3,7
Matt 15:22-28
Matt 16:1-4
Matt 17:14-18
Matt 19:3-15
Matt 19:16-22
Matt 20:20-23
Matt 20:30-34
Matt 22:23-32
I was going to give this reply to Ralph, on the other thread, but it’s more appropriate here.
st.crispin on September 11th, 2009
Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, John Hagee, Benny Hinn, Bill Keller, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard etc. The list reads like a veritable Rogues Who’s Who.
IF all of these guys were frauds, they are small time punks compared to the Bernie Madoff of religious scams- The LDS Church. I don’t know who you are but I can gaurentee you I spent more time with Gordan B.Hinckley than you did. Humility was not his forte. Like all the GA’s he cultivated a facade of humility, enough to fool the members. How humble can you possibly be when you call yourself a prophet? Knowing full well you aren’t one. That is the height of arrogance. It pretty much redlines my BS. meter.
St Crispy said
Your correct, these guys are evil and no doubt false teaches, But just because these guys exist does not mean LDS leaders are true prophets of God.
I do not care if you knew Gordon how how humble he seemed, If he believed in a false Gospel, taught a false gospel, then he lead people to hell and he himself will also end up in hell. Rick b
And Crispin,
Is humility necssarilly an arbiter or a sign of truth?
You use the term as if you think it is.
BTW, I do not support what the folks you listed did, and do not support the charlatans who parade as Christian leaders and pilfer folks for all they have… That IS abuse.
But it is also a bit of a distraction from what is really the issue between Mormonism and Christianity. And humbleness, as you espouse, does not necessitate that the humble speak truth.
Wow, the ev’s are just fuming, they love to lambaste the LDS Church and its leaders but cannot stand it when their own hypocrisy is pointed out to them.
bfwjr writes: ” I can gaurentee you I spent more time with Gordan B.Hinckley than you did.”
Really, I doubt that very much given the fact that you cannot even spell his name correctly.
I know many of these apostles and prophets personally. A common personal trait of each one is their tremendous humility and a lifetime dedicated to the selfless service of their fellow man. These men are true servants of the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
They bear His image in their countenance. They know Jesus Christ personally and have met the Lord face to face. They have been called and set apart as apostles and prophets directly by Jesus Christ Himself.
LDS leaders such as bishops, stake presidents, general authorities receive no financial remuneration whatsoever for their years of dedicated service. Full-time servants such as apostle and prophets receive a modest stipend to cover their costs and living expenses.
Contrast and compare the humility and selfless dedication of LDS leaders to the vipers of televangelism who scramble over each other to grab as much loot as possible and to whom there is no end to their sheer avarice, lust, and self-glorification. The leaders of evangelicals live a life of corpulent luxury in palatial mansions, have private jets, and fleets of Mercedes.
In comparing the leaders of the LDS Church to the leaders of Evangelicals it is crystal clear as to who are the true servants of the Lord Jesus Christ and who serve only themselves.
Again, evangelicals are such hypocrites.
Crispy,
I was mocking your:Gorrdon B. Hinckley.
Many choose power over $$$. Fleecing the flocks for power is no moral high road. I’m not defending any a-sshat who cheats, lies and steals, you are.
Stuart, we don’t need your help to anathametize the televangelists. We’re already busy doing it ourselves. Evangelicals leaders harshly condemn the televangelists. Do Mormon leaders do this kind of public in-house cleaning and rebuking and public denunciation when books like Spencer W. Kimball’s Miracle of Forgiveness (hated by BYU’s own religion department) are still pushed in the LDS Distribution Center?
BYU professors dare not publicly step on LDS institutional toes either. Gotta keep that sacred cow from looking thin.
What’s liberating about being a Protestant is that we can rebuke or even denounce people in our own camp without feeling like we’re butting heads with “priesthood authority”.
Stuart – demeaning and belittling bfwjr for misspelling GBHs name and using that as proof that he must be lying about his relationship with same, is sad. As I have told you directly before, I think you can do better than that. How far down the exaltation road are you? I apologize for that cheap shot, but, really, you are really something. Pick us apart for something that we are connected to, not those people you seem so fond of slinging at us. You also say that all your leaders serve at no pay. How about expense accounts? Housing allowances? I would like to hear from someone about these kinds of related “incomes.” Maybe Kevin knows, oh, wait, Kevin has been exposed as not knowing what a cost center is (!). Surely there must be some Ev who can do the math? Regardless, whether a person volunteers, is paid, or has an expense account, does not make them a leader.
bfwjr,
So, I have caught you in your own lie – this deceitfulness is so very typical of evangelicals. Now you are accusing Gordon B. Hinkley of lying, cheating, and stealing! Is there no end to your false accusations and vicious slander?
You falsely accuse a good and saintly man of “fleecing the flocks”. I will have you know that Gordon B. Hinkley dedicated his entire life to the selfless service of his fellow man. He lived his life in a modest house in Mill Creek much of which he built with his own hands. Gordon was a humble man full of love and was loved by millions.
Can you say the same for the televangelist vipers who “devour the widows house”? I think not.
That is your religion of evangelicalism – the love of money, sexual perversion, and lust for power as so richly demonstrated by your leaders. You bow down before the almighty dollar and lie, steal, and fornicate to your heart’s content which in your perverted religion as all perfectly right as long as you “accept Jesus” because He has washed you of all your sins and will save you in the last day.
What hypocrisy!!!
You are full of lies and deceitfulness which is of course why you rail against the humble servants of Christ and mock that which is holy.
Stuart, I think this is a big problem. Associating a Conference-face and Conference-pose and Conference-tone-and-influx makes for a superficial veneer. Jesus Christ and the Spirit he sent cannot be put into the box of Conference decorum.
Which is actually something to be ashamed of, given the Mormon refusal to obey the New Testament’s counsel not to muzzle the ox. For example, in 1 Timothy 5:17-18 we read,
That some people abuse their religious power to gain money, women, or power does not negate this apostolic wisdom.
It’s sad when the general implicit requirement for top leadership in Mormonism is being wealthy and experienced in the business world.
The New Testament envisions people who are so engrossed and dedicated to studying and preaching the word and pastoral care that they need money from local Christians to keep afloat. “One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.” (Galatians 6:6)
I would be more than glad to compare your prophet and apostle’s housing arrangements with my local pastor’s 🙂
Equating evangelicalism with the televangelist health/wealth/prosperity movement shows a fundamental misunderstanding and lack of familiarity with the landscape of mainstream conservative evangelical Christianity. You’re in the company of people who already shout woes over the Benny Hinn’s of the world.
Ironically, one of the things the Mormon Church shares in common with the televangelist ministries is that they won’t (without pressure from congress) publicly release basic financial stats.
Will you join us in calling for the televangelist ministries and Mormon Church corporation to freely and publicly release such information on a yearly basis?
Take care,
Aaron
Ward,
bfwjr even admits to his lying deceitfulness. He calls it: “mocking (my) Gorrdon B. Hinckley.” I grow tired of this constant slander and malicious mocking against good and saintly people who have dedicated their lives to serving Christ and helping their fellow man.
Unlike evangelicals who worship at the feet of Mammon, whose god is the almighty dollar, Latter-day Saints receive NO financial remuneration for their years of dedicated service rather they consider it a blessing to serve their fellow man in a Christ-like manner.
The only people who are paid a salary in the LDS Church are those who work full time – such as chapel custodians, Church Educational System (CES) instructors, physical plant caretakers, the folks who work in the Church Office Building (i.e. accountants, secretaries, admin people etc.),
Certain Church leaders such as LDS Mission Presidents will have their housing and living expenses covered because they are taking three years out of their lives to serve in that capacity – yet they still have their families to provide for. Likewise, the apostles and the prophet receive a modest stipend to cover their living costs because they are dedicating all their time and energy to their callings – yet they still have their families to provide for.
The lifestyle of an LDS leader is one of selfless sacrifice and modest living. This is such a stark contrast to the gross opulence of lavish luxury of all so many evangelical leaders.
It is clear as to who are the true servants of Jesus Christ and who are the vipers.
Aaron,
you are making a lot of false accusations, to wit you wrote: “Spencer W. Kimball’s Miracle of Forgiveness (hated by BYU’s own religion department)”
This is a false accusation.
St Crispy, Are you blind or are you purposely ignoring what people say? That way of acting makes you seem like a deceiver. Me and a few others have already pointed out many times, these so called Christians that fleece the flock our not of us, Some of us have rebuked them and their teachings openly.
Despite what you want to believe Many so called good and Moral LDS are liars. Many Christians here, myself included have told stories of MM’s lying to our faces.
I have said this before and I will say it again, If you want I will tell you exactly where I live, you can come to my house, I will arrange for MM’s to come to my house, then when they Lie to me as I know they will, I know what questions to ask that they will lie about, then you can see for yourself that it happens.
Sadly I know as well as the LDS here, You know LDS do lie and you guys will never come to my house because deep down you know I am correct.
When you are faced with the truth you will never show. If you truly believe I am wrong then come to my house. Open to all LDS, I will even provide a free steak diner on the grill if you want. Rick b
Stuart,
First of all, calm down. I realize the recent posts at MC have been quite provocative, but everyone needs to keep their cool.
Secondly, ask Robinson and Millet yourself, “Do you agree with the book’s distinctive tenets on the definition of the prerequisite repentance that brings forgiveness?” Phrase the question like that and see where you get.
If you think the two camps (BYU neoorthodoxy and Kimballite repentance) are compatible, you haven’t talked to enough of your fellow Mormons on this issue. Heck, post a thread over at MADB and ask your fellow Mormon defenders what they think of the book. Methinks if you did some digging you wouldn’t be singing the same tune in a few years.
Take care,
Aaron
Stuart, it looks like you are simply ignoring what people here are saying about those, as Rick puts it, who “fleece the flock”. How is this reasonable? How does it exhibit the kind of “kinder, gentler” Mormonism that your leaders want practiced, or the kind of non-defensiveness that Ballard recently promoted?
Also, you need to remember that evangelicalism is not a monolithic oligarchy or giant organizational denomination. We have no allegiance to the Benny Hinn’s of the world. They are not our priesthood leaders. So when you see us publicly denouncing the Benny Hinn’s of the world, and yet continue to equate us with them, it only makes it look like you’re being angry and irrational.
I really do think you’ll look back at these comments of yours in the months or years to come and regret them.
The song/YouTube video must really have hit a nerve?
Take care,
Aaron
St Crispy,
Since you want to or seem to ignore that fact that we denounce the Benny Hinns of the world, yet you claim they are still part of us, how then do you handle Jesus?
Jesus Denounced the Jews who were the leaders that claimed they were from God and from Abraham, Yet Jesus said they were of the devil, yet they said they were of God. No difference when we do as Jesus.
Then you talk about how loving these so called servants of God are, Yet for as loving and Christ like as they are supposed to be, they would not give people like me the time of Day, I know, I tried. They refuse to have a talk with me even if they have no idea what it is I want to talk about.
So you better get your facts straight before you tell me how kind and loving these guys are. Rick b
I almost feel bad when I watch the slideshow along with the music. It seems as though these nice smiling faces are being portrayed in a harsh way.
I remember a time when I believed that these were the people who would definitely make it to godhood. Not because I knew any of them personally. But because of where they were sitting, and the honor given to them. They must be as close to Jesus as it gets here on earth, to deserve such respect.
These are the same people, while I studied my scriptures and COULD NOT understand how they had been interpreted for me, I credited with being so much more spiritual than me as to understand that those scriptures meant that.
These are the people that people like my parents figured they would be servant-gods to. Neither of my parents believed they could ever be as perfect as they needed to be. But these men, of course, were, so they would be the gods, and my parents their ministering-angels.
There are nice, smiling men where I live who wear their righteousness like a badge, and people go home depressed, wishing they were only as holy as they are, to get called to the bishopric, etc. People who never bring up what bad things are happening in their families, because those bad things never happen to good people like these men, and their families.
Jesus and these, in my opinion, could never get along. Jesus tended to those “on the other side of the tracks” from these guys.
Setfree,
You were saying how nicely dressed these people are, so they must be close to God. Sad thing is, Just looking good will not mean your telling the truth.
Ted Bundy was a really good looking guy, and a smooth talker, even a ladies man, Yet he killed Many people. No official count was ever given, even at his death he played games and implied he might have killed hundreds, No one will ever know, Yet what a good looking guy.
No one dared confront the religious leaders of Jesus day, Until John the Baptist Did. Then later Jesus Rebuked them, Even Paul said when it came to keeping the Law He Was Blameless. Yet that could not save him.
Saying these guys are so super holy is not really true, We can only see what they want us to see, their is much we will never see and they will never allow. Jesus walked Among us, we could see Him and talk with Him. The LDS prophets only speak and tell us what they want us to hear, then they go back behind closed doors and do not speak to the common folk like me. Rick b
liv4jc said: “I have been to the link from your name. You need to repent my friend. That’s just a disgusting display of idolotry for Joseph Smith.”
liv4jc, I can’t even begin to tell you just how badly you are wasting your breath, your time and your typing fingers. In fact you and the other evs have only strengthened my love for the restoration and Joseph Smith. I don’t think you even begin to realize.
Rick,
I remember thinking, while I sat in seminary watching “The Princess Bride” for the 5th or 6th time, that if I could just shake hands with the prophet, I’d know whether or not the church was true for sure. Like I really expected to feel his super spirituality, or see a glowing aura or something. I remember we were given calendars at church with pictures of the prophet and temples.
Many of the Mormons I know decorate their houses with pictures of these guys.
I always wondered, too, why they never came out to talk to and mingle with us little people. I always just kinda figured they were busy talking to Jesus in the temple. Didn’t one of them say that He looks like the red-haired, blue-eyed picture they hand out at the Mormon Miracle Pageant?
Nobody has commented on the verses I gave above, so I want to point out just one thing I noticed.
It was the Pharisees, the ones who esteemed themselves as commandment-keepers and righteous leaders, whom Jesus called “vipers” and “hypocrites”. It was the Pharisees that kept protesting that Jesus and followers didn’t seem to have to keep the law…
sound familiar?
setfree, in reading some of your comments in this and other threads, I’m struck by the apparent anxiety and inner dissonance they seem to reveal. On the one hand you rave about having been “set free” from Mormonism, and yet on the other hand you can’t seem to let Mormonism go. Like it or not, Mormonism has stuck in your craw, and you just can’t seem to shake it. Rest assured, though, if I were in your shoes, I would also have a strong inclination to try everything in my power to convince myself that Mormonism was wrong, if for no other reason than to be able to sleep peacefully at night and not have to fret over whether I had made the wrong decision by leaving it.
But I must say, some of your comments indicate to me that you may have lacked a sound understanding of the gospel (i.e. Mormonism) from the get go:
“I remember a time when I believed that these were the people who would definitely make it to godhood. Not because I knew any of them personally. But because of where they were sitting, and the honor given to them. They must be as close to Jesus as it gets here on earth, to deserve such respect.”
To believe that the GAs were close to godhood because of where they sit is a shallow view indeed. And then this comment:
“These are the people that people like my parents figured they would be servant-gods to.”
I can only scratch my head at this one. Respectfully, if your parents actually did believe this (which I doubt), then I understand why your own testimony might have been deficient.
WJ
I don’t come to MC and put myself in close proximity to Mormonism so I can feel justified for leaving it. I come here because there are people who I love who are still stuck in it. Personally, having to be this close to it is a downer for me. I do it in hopes that something I have to share will benefit someone, someday.
My parents only shared with me their feelings about godhood when I recently asked them. They are also out of Mormonism, praise the LORD!
My mother was the best Mormon woman I knew, and the ward respected her and admired her in all her many callings. She never told me until we were all “out” how she would come home from church and bawl, because even after fulfilling all her callings, growing her own garden, sewing her kids’ clothes, keeping a journal (and having all of us keep one) etc etc etc etc, she felt like she just wasn’t getting it all done (i.e. perfectly keeping her covenants).
She went to the temple back when they made them swear not to tell by pretending to slit their throats and stuff.
I have gotten this: “your own testimony might have been deficient” before. Right before a good LDS friend of mine stopped talking to me because I quoted something to her that Jesus said. It’s okay. I know that as an LDS, you just cannot understand what it is like to be “saved”, and in a personal relationship with YHWH/Jesus. I do, though, hope you will someday.
I haven’t seen you out here before, WJ. I hope you’ll stay around and talk some more.
Praying for you tonight.
Aaron,
Polemics and religious criticism is one thing but I take strong exception to when you openly and deliberately slander the good names of decent, honest, people who have dedicated their lives to serving their fellow man in a most Christ-like manner. I personally know a number of the individuals pilloried in this parody by the group Adam’s Road. They are among the nicest, kindest people I know and it hurts me to see their good names publicly dragged through the mud.
You think that viciously slandering Latter-day Saints is all good sport – but it is not! Such behavior is vicious and mean-spirited and certainly not Christ-like.
If you truly profess to follow Jesus Christ then I would call upon you to repent of these vile attacks on such good and decent people. They do not deserve such horrible treatment.
As you stated: “I really do think you’ll look back at these comments of yours in the months or years to come and regret them.”
Setfree said
I will pray for you and pray the demons are cast from you, LOL. Seriously I hate that movie, My wife loves it and when me and my wife renewed our wedding vows, even the pastor made a reference to that god awful movie. I told the pastor I think I am the only person in the world who hated that movie with a passion. Rick b
Crispin,
Horrible treatment? opinions given by a few people your GA’s don’t know and could care less about? is this Aaron persecuting the men the millions of church members treat with utmost respect? how dare he! how will they ever live through it?
seriously, do you think even non-Mormons should reverence these guys?
setfree, I know you probably consider your efforts on this blog to be a noble and courageous thing, which is evidenced by your stated purpose of wanting to “benefit someone, someday.” But lets face it, people like to be surrounded by other people with similar views. When you come to this site, you do not come to be surrounded by Mormons, you do it to be surrounded by other individuals who are opposed to Mormons. While there is some dialogue on this site, it is mostly an echo chamber for Mormon antagonists. Don’t kid yourself by trying to portray it as though you are walking into the lion’s den.
Regarding your mother, I’m sure she is a fantastic person. But your characterization of her views, if accurate, indicate what I believe to be, in some instances, a flawed understanding of the gospel (as with your own stated views). Or at a minimum, you dramatize them for effect.
For instance you reference her “fulfilling all her callings…” First, I’d say not likely. Callings, like all other responsibilities, work, chores, parenthood, etc. are almost never completely fulfilled. There is always more work to be done. Perhaps you meant to say after “trying” to fulfill all her callings. But lets not make more of this than really exists.
Then you mention her “growing her own garden, sewing her kids’ clothes, keeping a journal (and having all of us keep one) etc etc etc etc” My question is, so what? These are not foul or onerous burdens. Each of these is a good thing to do, whether Mormon or not. They can be a pain, difficult, etc., but such is life.
But then, here is the kicker: she would come home from church bawling because “she felt like she just wasn’t getting it all done (i.e. perfectly keeping her covenants).” This is an anecdote relied upon heavily on this blog, this view that Mormonism is so onerous that it can’t possibility be true. But the problem is, your mom’s response (again, if accurately reported by you) demonstrates a flawed understanding of the gospel. Covenants aren’t perfectly kept, because no one is perfect. If someone believes they can perfectly keep them, then they are confused. Your mom mistakenly put more pressure on herself than was warranted. A prophet’s responsibility is to guide the people, to help them strive to be better, constantly. We can’t do it all, but we can do a lot if we try. Its simple really.
Your next comment: “She went to the temple back when they made them swear not to tell by pretending to slit their throats and stuff” is a typical red herring, and has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Red herrings underscore a weak argument.
You may have gotten statements regarding your deficient testimony in the past, but repetition doesn’t make something untrue. On this thread alone your own comments, in addition to the ones I’ve already noted, have provided ample evidence that you misunderstand certain concepts. And please, spare me the whole I know you are Mormon so you can’t understand what I understand shtick. Its tired and worn out, and you are frankly in no position to gauge my relationship with the Savior, which I’m quite comfortable with. Pray for me if you will, I will not refuse prayers on my behalf, but remember where your heart is while doing so.
Thrice out in one day, and all you have is attack-talk on what i’ve said and who i am?
Any chance you’ll answer any of the questions I’ve asked? Like, for instance, why isn’t the name “elohim” in any of your scriptures? (is this a red herring for you? maybe you’d just like to try to discount me personally some more)
“Callings, like all other responsibilities, work, chores, parenthood, etc. are almost never completely fulfilled. There is always more work to be done. Perhaps you meant to say after “trying” to fulfill all her callings”
yes, i certainly should have said “trying to”.
I’m sure you believe you understand the LDS gospel. I looks like you’re one of those who believes “after all we can do” will be sufficient. Yes?
Crispin, Some history: when I was a kid still in single digits 8 or 9, myself and a couple of friends were taken to downtown SLC and given a tour of the church underground parking that had been completed about 10 years before. Who gave us the tour? Gordan B. Great experience, great guy very warm , funny, engaging… Joe Normal. A few years later, early teens I accompanied a friend and met Gordan B. on the steps of the old church office building and we walked over to Hotel Utah for lunch, great guy, good experience, outstanding lunch. On a personal level I loved the man. I considered him to be gem. After years of studying the church and it’s true history. I found it harder and harder to reconcile what on the outside, was a good and decent man with a man who was deceiving people via his positions in the church. How do choice and free agency operate when all you get is spin, half-truths and in the end the most egregious case of flat-out, nose-growing, pants-on-fire lying? The facts are there for any rational human being to examine. The GA’s KNOW what they are putting out, in terms of history, is bunk. How would you deal with it? Fall on your sword hero.
WJ, you are a tad bit presumptuous are you not? You have drawn many conclusion about Setfree, but how well do you really know him? It really doesn’t matter what your religions background is, but your approach to what would be an open and honest dialog is a little disheartening.
SetFree was offering some insight into his personal life, I didn’t see any argument from set free about the temple or how his mother fulfilled or tried to fulfill her callings, he was just expressing parts of his life.
I would like to know how you can conclude that, WJ said “Regarding your mother, I’m sure she is a fantastic person. But your characterization of her views, if accurate, indicate what I believe to be, in some instances, a flawed understanding of the gospel (as with your own stated views).”
I don’t think anything he said about her was dramatized.
What are you trying to prove?
Stuart, the Pharisees had their fans in the first century. I’m sure they didn’t like Jesus raining down on their favorite parade either.
WJ, thanks for participating in what you call the echo chamber. I certainly don’t hear the Mormons here echoing what the Christians have to say.
You reduce the prerequisite of forgiveness down to ‘trying’, but Spencer Kimball was quite clear on that: “There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin. Desire is not sufficient. In other words, it is not real repentance until one has abandoned the error of his ways and started on a new path… The saving power does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life. Trying is not sufficient.” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 163)
Or as a pamphlet still available in the LDS Distribution Center says,
“Abandonment of Sin: The forsaking of sin must be a permanent one. True repentance does not permit making the same mistake again.” (LDS pamphlet “Repentance Brings Forgiveness”)
It seems, WJ, that you don’t understand the difference between the repentance-paradigm of Spencer W. Kimball and the repentance-paradigm of the BYU religion department. One has successful, non-repeatable, permanent abandonment of sin and successfully keeping the commandments as a prerequisite for forgiveness. The other reduces it down to a vague notion of trying.
KEEP IT UP, setfree. Don’t let the lame personal attacks discourage you. I love your doggedness over the important issues.
Remember folks, if a moderator feels like you’ve crossed the line by personally attacking someone here as a substitute for engaging the issues, then you’ll get flagged. WJ, you’re sitting on that line.
Grace and peace in Christ,
Aaron
I got a phone call from a friend one day and he seemed upset and asked if I was coming over. When I arrived he showed me a birthday card he had received from his mother, and on the envelop she had misspelled his name. The woman who had named him had misspelled it. We couldn’t stop laughing.
P.S. I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Gorden B.
If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven. What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down.
Joseph Smith, Jr.
Hey, Crispin, you say you are better off because your leaders act for free. I say so what that they work for free. It matters not an iota to any of us. I think its great they do so, but that means so little to proving anything true its not even worth dicussing more than that.
WJ, a very close LDS friend of mine told me that while he was on his mission he had a postcard depicting a workhorse in a snowstorm. The horse had its head down and there were thick chains running behind it to a heavy load that it was straining to pull. He told me that he had since lost the picture that he so cherished while on his mission. He was giving a fireside to the boys in his ward and he wanted to convey the message of that picture as demonstrative of “working for the Lord: You don’t actually know what you are working for, and it’s hard, but you keep on working because you know that in the end it will be worth it.” He then told me that he was in a store and saw the same picture, only a lot larger, and immediately purchased it so he could show the boys.
I thought to myself, How can that be inspirational in any way? You don’t know what you’re working for, but you just keep working?
Do some research on the Pharisees and the extra-biblical oral law, now codified, called the Mishna. Then read Matthew 11:28-30
Then go read Matthew 15:1-20 to get the true meaning of the verse JS perveted for his 1st vision myth.
Then read Romans 4 and 5, Ephesians 1 and 2 and Titus 3. Grace is wonderful, and it is a gift for those whose hearts are ready. Read Matthew 5
It’s been a heated week. I’m closing down these threads so I can not worry about them over the weekend. Have a great weekend guys. Let’s take a break!
Sharon’s posts are coming up today and this week, and she’s much sweeter than I am 🙂