Clint Roberts writes,
If only a few rare beings in the infinite family tree are part of this unique royal succession who lived sinlessly on earth in order to be redeemers, then it still remains that sinners become gods just as great & powerful as ours (in fact it’s the norm). So big deal if WE just so happen to be offspring in that rare line of succession in which one son (always the eldest, I guess?) in every ‘litter’ carries the sinless-while-on-earth gene. Right?
Brian Mackert writes,
It moves the problem to a different God. You and I who ARE SINNERS are, according to Mormonism, supposed to be able to become Gods just like God the Father did, but God the Father wasn’t a sinner? See the contradiction? God the Father wasn’t a sinner, didn’t need a Savior, didn’t need atonement for sin, didn’t need to be redeemed, never fell into sin, it is impossible for us to become a God like He did!!!
The whole of Mormon Theology begins to unravel. If God was a sinless Savior like Jesus, then how was He tested by the flesh so that He could earn His own godhood and be exalted? Was he special somehow? And if we are to become gods just like he did then why aren’t we all sinless Saviors too?
What about the Holy Ghost? How did He become a God without a physical body and being tried by it? What’s up with that? Is He special too?
What about Jesus? How come it’s possible for him to become a God without ever having fallen into sin like us and needing to be redeemed?
It seems to me that if being a sinner or being sinless is optional then there is no need for this probationary period and the trials of the flesh. Why should we have to endure the trials of the flesh in order to become a God if this is optional. It seems to me that if we were to become Gods as they became Gods, then we wouldn’t have had the fall in the Garden of Eden. We would have all remained sinless and become sinless Gods as God the Father did and as Jesus did.
To be brief, “was he special somehow?”, yes he was…obviously.
why would God make the earth and creatures upon it?, why would he allow for sin, regardless of the denomination wthen hich defines it?
why would he give men souls? why create creatures to celebrate your presence, worship you, and then give them an “out” ?
why indeed.
Free agency is perhaps the greates gift that Our Heavenly Father has for us. The ability to actually “choose” is not just critical but it is essential.
why would not God just make man entirely subservient? What is the divine inspiration for allowing us to actually choose “love” rather than be “programmed” to always love? JC was in favor of choice whereas Ol’Scratch favors the opposite.
It is free-agency, its gift to us shows the divinity of His love and our thoughful and heartfelt utilization of that gift is the spark of love within us. Love is a choice, blind obedience is not.
This is why the gate of salvation opens with the “choice”.
Your notion that us remaining in Eden would have been a quick route to being gods is erroneous. There is no indication that we were never to eat of the tree of life.I suggest you ponder every word and meaning of Genesis 3:22
“It seems to me”, “it seems to me”, guess what Aaron, it is not about you, it was about a Plan that was given to all. So puzzle away, continue to be confused, deny your preexistence, and take the little bit of light and knowledge you have and be satisfied for the eternity you so choose. God will not embarrass you even when you pass through the veil of death, you will be happy to have your mansions amongst those who think along the same lines you do.
Problematic for you Aaron is that you so much want to choose how, what, and when God can act.
Not problematic for me since I choose to follow all that God has in store for his faithful. If I as a sinner can become a King and my wife a Queen for eternity to rule over our creations, then following God’s plan seems reasonable and charitable.
Regards, Richard.
Aaron does make some good points that Both HS and SG seem ignore in favor of blind faith in Smith. The scriptures attest that God is a spirit: John 4:24. He is from “everlasting to everlasting” Psalm 90:1-2, that “before me was no god formed, neither shall there be after me” Isa. 43:10. These are good points brought up by Aaron. That Smith EVOLVED his teachings is evident, he incorporated his ‘many gods’ belief when he stole the rites to masonry to include in the Nauvoo Temple. His own Book of Mormon has this to say:
“And now, behold this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,which is ONE God, without end. Amen” (2 Nephi 31:21)
“And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said; Yea, there is a true and living God. And Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things? And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.” (Alma 11:26-31)
“Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou are holy, and that thou wast spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.” (Alma 31:15)
There are many more examples. Smith evolved his teachings, (not by revelation) but as circumstances dictated. The objective of any cult leader is to make themselves more important than God. Smith does this at every turn. In making himself equal with God, and promising this to everyone else, he has the perfect means to play on peoples hopes, to become as good as God, who was just like us! Which Smith teaching are you going to believe? But there is only one God, one Saviour, one Lord, even Jesus Christ. Leave the blind guides Smithians! Blessings await you in the simple gospel of Jesus.
Thanks for making my point, you have all the light and knowledge you desire, you have the Bible and have told God to be quiet.
Interesting indeed.
R.
Adam and Eve should have trusted God for progression on his timing instead of plunging themselves into a life of sin through a supposed non-sin transgression.
And if there was a pre-mortal Grand Council, it seems Jesus gave us a second-rate plan. He himself participated in a better plan which involved achieving godhood in pre-mortality, and then coming to mortality in a way that didn’t require a post-fall life of sin and redemption of himself by another. Why didn’t Jesus give us that plan in the Grand Council—a plan that didn’t require sin—instead of giving us a plan that basically rendered it certain that we would all sin in the post-fall world?
“Holy, holy, holy, is Richard Almighty, who was and is and is to come. The Alpha and Omega, the Holy of holies, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, the God of gods, who is unchangeable from everlasting to everlasting, the Eternal Father, the Rock of salvation, we worship you and pray to you and adore you and obsess over you and give everything we have to you, and give you all the glory. Who has ever known the mind of Richard, or who has ever been his counselor? How inscrutable are his ways! To Richard be all power, and glory, and dominion, and worship. For from you, and through you, and to you are all things.”
You comfortable with that supposed prospect, Richard?
Instead of accepting worship in the afterlife, why not redirect it and point people to the worship of the one true God—the God of Israel? That way the God of Israel gets all the glory. Are you interested in giving God literally all the glory?
You said yourself, “it is not about you”. But it’s not about you, Richard, either—in this life or the life to come.
Grace and peace in Christ,
Aaron
No one is telling God to be quiet. He speaks in numerous ways…Just not through Smith and his co-horts. I’m not the one who presumes to know that God once dwelt on an earth and was a mortal man. I’m not the one who writes about God being a spirit, and then changes it 14 years later to him being a flesh and blood man. I’m not the one who has delusions of grandeur, that no one (including Jesus) had done a greater work on earth than I have. I’m not the one who stood up in Nauvoo and dared anyone to contradict my statements. Smith did all that. You can accept it, and preach it, but you choose to be quiet about and hide and edit all of Smith’s teachings that you can’t explain. I stand in the light of Jesus. I don’t cower in the shadow of Smith
“It seems to me”, “it seems to me”, guess what Aaron, it is not about you…
it’s about Richard, and his potential to become a god, right Richard?
How dare Aaron (or the Bible) try to stand in the way of your big dream, and tell you there is only ONE GOD!
Although Mormonism claims to be a restoration of ancient Christianity, many of its key concepts are clearly from a more recent era. Take the word “eternal’ and “eternity” and also the word ‘everlasting” as examples. When Mormon scriptures such as Moroni 7:28″… he advocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens.” or Moroni 8:18 “… but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.” or D&C 39: 22
22 … “…and they shall be gathered unto me in time and in eternity.”
This ‘eternal'(along with ‘everlasting’ and ‘for ever’) word is a 14 century invented word that appeared in the 17th century KJV of the Bible denoting God’s transcendent nature- these words are paraphrases and a quality completely inconsistent with the Mormon concept a Heavenly Father having to become a man- and being a sinner in a mortal state. No single ancient word expressed this idea of ‘eternal’, rather ancient Hebrew and Greek had to use longer phrases to express this idea– such as
God is called “tou aioniou theou” the eternal God
Rom 16:26 actually literally means that is He was God before time was invented and before the ages.
2 Tim 1: 9 … Christ Jesus before the world began, (“pro chronon aionion”- before time began).
So the KJV added this modern ‘eternal’ paraphrase to account for Greek and Hebrew nuances that were difficult to translate. So why if Mormonism is an ancient restoration are the LDS new and better scriptures full of the apostate terms ‘eternal’, ‘eternity’ and ‘for ever’– which are key middle-ages apostate paraphrases to support Trinitarian ideas of God’s transcendence?
It really appears that Mormon founders did not think out their new theology out very well— none of plays out as consistent or reasonable.
In the Bible, Book of Mormon, and D&C God is eternal, thus transcendent, and never mortal. This also reckons also that God had no situation in which to sin to begin with nor a sinful nature.
I’d like to propose an analogy.
Imagine a “tough guy” on a Harley. Road in front of him, sky above, he’s on an adventure. King of the road. Answers to no one. Boss of his own “world”.
He enjoys some things besides the bike. He likes a nice shot of whiskey at the end of the day. He likes the women. He’s living it up, happy to be alive.
But, on occasion, he’s done some unlawful things. And there is a sheriff out there, looking for him, and that sheriff has a list. He’s on the hunt for this Harley guy, hoping to catch up with him and bring him in.
The Harley guy knows this; he’s not too worried about his lawlessness, but he’s hoping to not have any run ins with the sheriff. He’ll just play it cool, and ride a wide circle around the sheriff’s territory.
Then one day, the Harley guy collides head-on with, say, a cow in the road. His body is broken in many places. His stuff is scattered. No one is there to help him.
And then the sheriff arrives.
But he acts in an unexpected way.
He lovingly cleans the man up, gathers his things, takes him to the best hospital, and pays for his treatment.
He visits him daily, bringing him cheering words and encouragement. He teaches him about a different way of life, and shows him more love than any person ever has.
A slow change happens with the Harley man, as he starts to see his former life as wasteful, and harmful to other people.
And when he finally gets out of the hospital, he and the sheriff are best friends. The sheriff writes off the man’s debt to the law, and gives him the freedom to start a new life like he never knew he could have.
All of us, before we come to accept Jesus, are in some way as the Harley man, running from the law, boss of ourselves, our own god.
We don’t understand that God is not out to get us to throw us in the slammer. He’s out to get us for our very own good.
It takes a lot to bow before the only One who can give us complete healing and freedom.
But it IS worth it
Romans 6:16-23 tells us that before we submit to Jesus as LORD (acknowledge that He is master, we are the servants), we are unwittingly slaves to sin.
SLAVES TO SIN
You might not believe it, but there is a controlling force on you. One that makes you do/think the wrong things. Your own sinful nature.
It’s your boss.
You don’t want to believe there’s only one god? It’s because your sinful nature wants to be god itself.
And it has control of you.
The Bible says, give over. Give up the Lordship over your own life to Jesus.
That’s a really hard thing to do, because we all are comfortable being our own boss. We know best, don’t we? At least about our own selves, and what we want from life.
Sadly, no.
We are the grief causers in our own life.
Only Jesus at the steering wheel puts us where He has planned. He came that we “may have life, and have it MORE ABUNDANTLY”
And He says, nope, only ONE GOD guys.
It’s up to you to confront your sin nature, that has control over you, and tell it “So long! I’m giving God charge over me”
You can’t run rampant with any silly thought anymore. Can’t believe whatever you want. There is just one Truth, and Jesus has it. In fact, Jesus is It.
Hard to give up SELF. I know. I remember.
If you only knew what was in store for you, though, you’d give Jesus the OK
I always like it when the point of free agency comes up. The Mormons do so much to remove free agency. You get to choose, as long as the decision is in line with the Mormon Corporation.
Has anyone else noticed that the Mormon posters have not address any of the real questions Aaron was asking, instead they are deciding to skirt the edge of the topic.
I would like to break it down further, lets say that only the prophets get to be gods, thats 16 in this dispensation. Now we know it is common practice for current presidents to contradict and over turn their predecessor teachings, I.E. the Lorenzo Snow sound bit, “As man is now, god once was, as god is now, man may become”. Pretty straight forward, in plain english. That is until the spin doctors twist their own words and deny the basic tenants of their own teaching.
So once Mormons get to heaven they are going to have to deal with at least 16 gods and possibly hundreds of goddesses fighting over who was right and who was wrong. Sounds like a bad episode of Star Gate SG-1. Are the Mormons really G`ould?
I just realized that Mormonism is the one thing that God has been fighting against. Are the Mormons similar to the Egyptian, Greek, Roman, and any other religion that supports multiple gods? Wait, I am serious, God has proclaimed time and over again that he is the One and only.
“As Mormons are, I once was, as I am now, Mormons may become… free”
Free agency only comes with full discloser.
I too would like to see some actual answers to the questions in the videos!
Kevin, Mormons have argued that all the Gods will be in perfect unity of will and purpose, and thus won’t fight or compete. But it still introduces huge problems since a multiplicity of equal Gods means none can be most-powerful, etc.
SteveRedinger
It seems entirley plausible that the usage of modern phrases and/or terms in the BoM owuld stem directly from the fact that the text was “translated” and “inspired” in modern times.
As for any conspiracy amongst the translators, I believe that requires a stretch of the imagination with the information you have provided. As for your man-God-man paradox, consider your own self – if you have been wholly saved by JC then your sins have been “wiped clean” and are irrelevant now. What once was is no more. Does JC require that you be a sinner before you come to him? Does JC claim that only the “dirty” need apply?
Conversion is a peculiar thing, because it literally means something that once was is now something completely different.
setfree
kinda nice “parable” of the Harley man – so it begs the question, why are you on the road running from the BoM?
Kevin
clearly you are imposing the cartoon heaven on the LDS. What makes you believe that you will not return to where you once where? – which was in Our Heavenly Father’s presence….even Moses had a glimpse on the mountain. Did we not originate in “heaven”? As a man are you not able to be, yourself, a father to children just as your father was to his? is it really not “on earth as it is in heaven” are we not in his “image”?
tell me, then, what happens when the good die?
Is it your assertion that St. Peter is at the gate with a harp and wings?
subgenious,
i appreciate the nod at my “parable”. but am I to assume that equal importance should be assigned to Jesus and the BoM?
setfree
no,
be careful with your assumptions.
Some months ago, maybe last year, several EV posters here made the comment that they viewed General Conference as very boring. ‘No new revelations?’ was the cynical question. Such evangelicals could not understand how Mormons could actually stay awake during the talks from the Prophet and apostles.
I personally think conference this last weekend was amazing- even overwhelming. Yet, I know critics here will laugh and mock at that. They likely had a totally different experience and yawned through whatever talks they were able to watch. I now think I understand why.
Evangelicals like Aaron perseverate on ridiculous, concocted “controversies” like the “royal line” question (which they have created themselves) because they are not content to receive the simple, beautiful truths of the gospel. Those truths are not exciting enough for them.
LDS come away from conference uplifted by the Spirit of God, having an increased desire to pray sincerely, rely more fully on the Lord through life’s problems, serve their fellow man more selflessly, and have the atonement applied more completely to their souls.
But just like Herod’s superficial interest in seeing Christ perform some impressive trick or miracle, critics want some great prophecy or sign. Christ said that an “adulterous generation seeketh a sign” and “except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.” Some people are not satisfied with the basic principles of the gospel. Because they do not have real faith, they gloss over the simple yet fundamental matters and jump to the spectacular and sensational- like insisting on every answer regarding the “royal line of saviors” or demanding absolute proof of the BOM.
I wonder if some critics spend more time writings articles and clever responses on blogs like this than they spend practicing their own religion and faith. And what does that suggest? To me it suggests a glaring void and insecurity with their own standing with God.
Aaron,
This is an interesting question.
“Why didn’t Jesus give us that plan in the Grand Council—a plan that didn’t require sin—instead of giving us a plan that basically rendered it certain that we would all sin in the post-fall world”
Your conclusion is that Jesus is making us sin by the proposed plan. Surely if He is omniscient, He knew we WOULD sin. Therefore, knowing our nature and that we would not participate in a no sin plan, He proposed a plan that could bring us back. So instead of this inconsistent Jesus you are trying to protray, I see Him a merciful, loving God providing a plan for us.
For those who did not understand my last post, let me give you further light and knowledge so that your eyes maybe open.
Here is what I was not talking about
Returning or going to heaven.
Being a Father and also a son.
What happen when anyone dies.
Here is what I was stating
Under LDS mythology there are many false gods, and yes, I do think it is comical how the Mormons try to explain away their, Utah State mini gods for the spiritual blind program.
I said it before, and I will say it again; I left the LDS corporation because of their messed up backwards practices.
Still haven’t seen any Mormons address Aaron’s questions, skirting the issue.
Man this stuff is so bizarre I can’t help it but all I can think is it’s just total loony tunes. And to think that Mormons pride themselves on their high spiritual plane because they “get it”. It’s a constant source of wonderment to me how far people will go to cling to a belief they have bought into emotionally.
And then Mormons have the audacity to claim this is all Biblical and first century Christianity. How far they can twist themselves into knots in order to accept that concept is truly a wonder to behold. Does anyone doubt Satan’s ability to blind the eyes of people who have given themselves over to a lie.
I praise God that two-thirds of Mormons on the rolls are inactive, that resignations have gone through the roof and that returning missionaries are jumping ship in record numbers. Those that are left can’t stop the flood of the waters that are sinking the LDS Titanic.
Please Mormons, keep proclaiming this doctrine of men becoming gods loudly and often and before someone signs on the dotted line.
No, I’m not concluding that. What I’m saying/asking is this: If Jesus could achieve godhood in pre-mortality, why didn’t he have us do the same, especially since that plan didn’t require post-fall experience where sin was inevitable? If Mormonism is true, he gave us a second-rate plan.
We got short-changed.
Aaron,
Wasn’t the sacrifice of jesus ‘plan B’ in christianity in general? Why didn’t god simply make it such that we were never exposed to a sinful nature?
In neopaganism, many of the features that christians call ‘sinful’ are actually essential features for survival and personal defence.
Subgenius,
As a mormon I took the concept of ‘free agency’ for granted. However, outside of authorized church texts I found its a very difficult teaching to demonstrate and test.
Enki, that God ordained a world where sin was inevitable isn’t a problem for me and my worldview.
But Mormon theologians generally reject that I can take that route, since I believe in creation out of nothing. They usually try to solve their own theodicy by appealing to the idea that we all chose what was necessary in the pre-existence. But if there was a third plan available, choosing a plan where sin was inevitable was not necessary. So Mormons by their own standards need to account for why the plan Jesus took was not a plan given for us to take.
Falcon,
” Does anyone doubt Satan’s ability to blind the eyes of people who have given themselves over to a lie?” I don’t doubt it, I can see it everyday in the Ev posters here on MC and the two thirds of the LDS that are jumping ship. At least I know that the less on board will lighten the ship and allow it to sail higher and faster in the water with less risk of sinking.
Kevin,
You said ” So once Mormons get to heaven they are going to have to deal with at least 16 gods and possibly hundreds of goddesses fighting over who was right and who was wrong.”
If you were taught the correct things while LDS you would know that there is only one God that we deal with – Heavenly Father. Yes we may become gods ourselves, but you will not be my god and I will not be your god. You will not worship/glorify me and I will not worship/glorify you. ONLY Heavenly Father is our God and He is the only one we will worship and glorify for eternity, no one else – thus only one God.
Grindael,
Alma 31:15 is what a group of apostate people were saying in their prayers to God. It would be like someone these days praying and saying “Oh three in one God, we know that thou art 3-in-1 and have been 3-in-1 and that thou wilt always be 3-in-1”. Oh sorry, they already do.
This scripture you are pointing to does not prove that the BoM teaches that God is a spirit as it is apostates (Zoramites) that are saying this, not the true church. If you don’t believe me here is the next verse Alma 31:16 “Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.” The true believers believed in Christ, these people didn’t.
Olsen Jim
Bravo!
falcon,
lather, rinse, repeat
Ralph
well stated and thank you
Hay, let’s face it. This is just another case of Mormons making it up as they go along. They have no clue about their own invented god. Now they have a right to their invention but don’t call your god, thee God because thee God bears no resemblance to the god you claim as your own.
God is nothing like the Mormon god. First of all the Mormon creation is either A) sinless or B) sinful. If the Mormon god is sinless then he’s expecting Mormons do to something he either didn’t or couldn’t. None-the-less if he didn’t transform from a sinful man then he’s asking these poor Mormons to do something he either didn’t or was incapable of doing.
Once again we see that Mormonism isn’t Christianity. In fact Satan was clever enough, working through Joseph Smith and subsequent “prophets” to be sure that God was substituted for a sinful man that became a god and promising other sinful men that they could make the same transition. In the process Satan has gotten Mormons a new god, a new gospel, a new plan of salvation and a new blessed hope. The blessed hope of Mormons is to become a god.
Let’s contrast that with Christianity. The Blessed Hope is Jesus Christ. The Word that became flesh and dwelt among us. A man in every respect except that He was, being the manifestation of the living God, sinless.
The Mormon god is the manifestation of Joseph Smith’s imagination. Mormons have been given a clear choice. They can choose the One and only living God and His Christ or they can choose an idol. One can provide eternal life in His presence the other guarantees eternity separated from God.
Very unpleasant business this Mormonism. For you Mormon lurkers, take a piece of paper and draw a line down the middle. On one side at the top write “God” on the other side at the top write “Mormon god”. Now under each write down their attributes. The side with “Mormon god” will shrink away in embarrassment.
The choice is clear. Choose God!
Ralph, interesting what you said about lightening the load
it had occurred to me again today, that that’s why no Mormons out here want to convert anyone. I’m willing to bet most of you are happy to see us ex-mormons because it means less competition.
so so so sad…
Grindael,
In regards to your comments “I’m not the one who writes about God being a spirit, and then changes it 14 years later to him being a flesh and blood man. I’m not the one who has delusions of grandeur, that no one (including Jesus) had done a greater work on earth than I have.” I have addressed the first part about God being a spirit above, but JS did not change the doctrine as the BoM does not teach anything of that kind.
I have answered the last part about you thinking JS said He was greater that Jesus in “The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah” blog, but briefly look at John 14:12 and see what Jesus had to say about His true believers. They will do greater works than what He has performed on this earth. Does it mean that they are/were greater than Him? No it does not. He performed the greatest work that no on can ever do – the Atonement and all that is associated with it. But read my other post for more details.
Setfree,
It really saddens me to hear of people leaving the truth and jeopardising their eternal salvation. My comment was just a tongue in cheek against Falcon’s standard “people are jumping ship” remark. I am here to answer questions to the best of my ability to try and help people see the truth. If the Holy Ghost touches a person and they are converted because of my remarks then that is great – but it is the Holy Ghost that converts people, not me.
2 of my best friends are ex-LDS, one excommunicated, the other asked for his name to be removed. I still try and get them to come back to the fold even thought they say they are not interested. It’s become sort of a game between us.
But there is no such thing as competition in this plan as it is Heavenly Father’s plan and work, not mine nor anyone else’s. So I do this for Him, not for me. And when it comes to the CK, it’s like a party – the more the merrier.
The most revealing thing about a religion is her idea of God, just as her most significant message is what she says about God or leaves unsaid, for the silence is often more descriptive than that which is said.
Low views of God destroy the a “gospel” for all who hold them. A god begotten in the shadows of a fallen heart will quite naturally be no true likeness of the true God. “Thou thoughtest,” said the Lord to the wicked man in the psalm, “that I was altogther such as one as thyself.” Surely this must be a serious affront to the Most High God before whom cherubim and seraphim continually do cry, “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Sabaoth.”
The essence of idolatry is the entertainment of thoughts about God that are unworthy of Him.
“When they knew God,” wrote Paul, “they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”
Wrong ideas about God are not only the fountain from which the polluted waters of idolatry flow; they are themselves idolatrous. The idolater simply imagines things about God and acts as if they were true.
The heaviest obligation lying upon someone is to purify and elevate their concept of God until it is once more worthy of Him.
(attribution to A.W. Tozer; “The Knowledge of the Holy”)
Aaron,
“But if there was a third plan available, choosing a plan where sin was inevitable was not necessary.”
You are refering to:
“He himself participated in a better plan which involved achieving godhood in pre-mortality, and then coming to mortality in a way that didn’t require a post-fall life of sin and redemption of himself by another.”
Isn’t that actually a restatement of the plan which was rejected?
These stories are an attempt to explain the way the world is, why there are unpleasant things. In mythology there is pandoras box. So, it explains why there are unpleasant things. We already know that other options didn’t happen, so speculating or inventing other stories about the way it could have happened is kind of mute.
Unless of course you take the idea that you can and should create heaven on earth. Thats not an easy task. Your idea of heaven may also be very, very different from someone elses ideal vision.
Ralph,
“ONLY Heavenly Father is our God and He is the only one we will worship and glorify for eternity, no one else – thus only one God.”
Keeping in mind that god is an exalted being from another world. Thats not the same concept as evangelical christianity.
Satan-where would mormons, christians, Muslims and jews be without satan?
SteveRedinger asked
Good question.
I know, let’s ask someone who has been supernaturally equipped to produce “correct” translations of ancient scripture. I’m sure one of the current LDS Prophets could go to the Manti Temple (or is it another temple), get Joseph’s seer stone, stick it and his face in a hat and “translate” a better expression.
After all, that’s their job isn’t it?
Or, more plausibly, Joseph’s “translations” and subsequent “doctrines” were a shameful fraud, and so is the movement that seeks to propagate the lie.
Mormon leader Orson Pratt said that if you worship one of the gods you worship all of them. The claim that some Mormons make of being monotheistic is just plain dishonest, like most of Mormonism. Mormonism is in a continual process of trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
Not unless you say Jesus himself chose the plan that Satan proposed.
Falcon,
The greeks had a word ‘apotheosis’ for the process of becoming a god.
http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/deified-mortals.html
Apparently this idea is not exclusive to greeks or mormons.
“All of this is a birth right as you start the apotheosis. Even in the bible it is stated in John 10:34 and in Psalm 82:6 that everyone has that birth right of the apotheosis becoming fully activated. For you my brothers and sisters take this tiny piece of knowledge and if it feels comfortable for you take it and expand on it all the way to heaven. Because having these capabilities over all kingdoms is heaven. ”
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_apotheosisproject.htm
Its not exactly mormon teaching, its more new age, and incorporates many elements of various religions, and modern science.
Falcon,
That unreferenced statement of yours is getting old. You sent me to a page on which you said the quote was found. I found over 100 different articles on that one page with no titles or descriptions matching anything like you have said, and since I don’t have the time to go through everything I don’t believe that Orson Pratt made a statement like that. I have tried searching the internet in Google using ‘Orson Pratt polythiesm’ but no where does anyone make reference to this supposed quote you keep rambling about. If it is such a big thing as you make it out to be, why is it that I have only heard you mention it and not someone from MRM or ULM or MOM Sydney, etc? Is it a very secretive or obscure reference? Please, if you have the reference for it, give the direct one, not just ‘its somewhere on this page in the mess of articles’ as you did last time, otherwise I will write it off as you just trying to discredit the LDS church by lying.
Note, I am not saying it does not exist, I am just saying I am skeptical it does exist because of no solid evidence outside of Falconland.
Ralph,
Could this be what you’re looking for?
“The Fulness of Truth,dwelling in an endless
sucession of past generations,would produce
and endless sucession of personal Gods,each
possessing equal wisdom,power, and glory
with all the rest. In worshipping any one
of these Gods we worship the whole,and in
worshipping the whole, we still worship but
one God….”
Apostle Orson Pratt,Sept 1853, The SEER, p.132
Ralph,
I remember you mentioned once that you teach
a doctrine class etc. If one of your students
asked you the following question what would
you reply?
student: ‘Ralph, I realize the “milk before
meat” precept, but just tell me directly,
do you have the potential to become an
Almighty God’?
Unfortunately, I do believe Orson Pratt got censured by BY for that particular series, The Seer (if I remember correctly). But I do not know what (in them) he objected to. But the quote is real and Pratt believed it. The seer was first published in Washington DC and then Liverpool. It was not popular with Mormons (it was mostly about Celestial Marraige) and there was an artilce where he speculated where immortal intelligences came from, and that God made the intelligences our of atomites? or parts of some kind of pre-intelligence proto-matter. That part is very weird and that is what I think concerned Young, and he told the saints to rip-out the bad parts, whatever they were…The publication ran for about two years, I believe. I remember seeing copies of it in the early 1980’s so my memory is fuzzy… He was commissioned by Young to write the first public article about celestial marraige (polygamy)
Olsen:
You are the one who sounds insecure. Who are you to say what I or any who post here have done?
Smith laid down the guantlet in 1844: ‘I have the truth, and am at the defiance of the world to contradict me if they can.’ -Smith, Apr.1844
This is as good a place as any to take him up on it. No one here is seeking a sign, it is obvious that Smith could not live up to his prophetic calling. God is a spirit in the BOM, then POOF! 14 years later he has a body. (I’ll address this later.)
As for the conferences, I doubt you will EVER hear a prophecy coming from that bunch, they wont want to be caught up in a lie. Before the convenient change about the blacks holding the priesthood, you had conference talks like this one from Ezra Bensen (135th):
“’What are we doing to fight it? BEFORE I LEFT FOR EUROPE I WARNED HOW THE COMMUNISTS WERE USING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT TO PROMOTE REVOLUTION AND EVENTUAL TAKEOVER OF THIS COUNTRY. WHEN ARE WE GOING TO WAKE UP? WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE DANGEROUS CIVIL RIGHTS AGITATION IN MISSISSIPPI? DO YOU FEAR THE DESTRUCTION OF ALL VESTIGES OF STATE GOVERNMENT? “’NOW, BRETHREN, THE LORD NEVER PROMISED THERE WOULD NOT BE TRAITORS IN THE CHURCH. WE HAVE THE IGNORANT, THE SLEEPY AND THE DECEIVED WHO PROVIDE TEMPTATIONS AND AVENUES OF APOSTACY FOR THE UNWARY AND THE UNFAITHFUL. BUT WE HAVE A PROPHET AT OUR HEAD AND HE HAS SPOKEN. NOW WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? “Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful we could step forward at this time and help save this country.”
Communists? Not. They were afraid of civil rights because of racist views on the blacks. But those days are gone.. it doesn’t make the church any money. And they were worried about lawsuits. It is always the money in Salt Lake. I think the mote and the beam analogy used earlier here fits well..
Olsen:
Smith did teach that God was a Spirit, in and out of the Book of Mormon. The Zoramites were condemned not because they believed that God was a spirit, (that was in line with what Alma believed) but because they did not believe in the coming of Christ. God is a Spirit here: Alma 18:26-28, and here: 22:8-11.
In the Book of Commandments (early D&C), Lectures on Faith, approved & included by Smith in 1835 we read:
“The church viewing this subject to be of importance, appointed, through their servants and delegates the High Council, your servants to select and compile this work.” –Smith, Cowdery, Rigdon & F.G.Williams. Lecture 5 reads:
“There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power overall things—
They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fullness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle…being filled with the fullness of the Mind of the Father, or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father: which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments…”
Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?
Q. Two: the Father and the Son. (5:1.)
Q. Do the Father and the Son possess the same mind?
A. They do.
Q. What is this mind?
A. The Holy Spirit
This is in line with Josephs original version of the First Vision, written in 1832 by his own hand:
“a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the (Lord) opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph (my son) thy sins are forgiven thee.”
No mention of two personages, just one, as he believed at the time….
As to “greater works”, My comment was chiefly concerned with Joseph’s arrogance and boasting, which I will address next…
Well thank you Mike R.
That was kind of a funny claim from Ralph who is the champion of obscure quotes and references. We can always count on Ralph to pull something out of left field when attempting to support concepts that exist mainly in the clouded minds of Mormons. Now Ralph will tell us that the quote doesn’t mean what it really means or deny that Pratt said it. You have to be creative and a stranger to the truth to make Mormonism work.
This brings up the larger question of course about the Mormon god speaking to Mormon prophets and just regular folks. I wonder if Orson Pratt got a good feeling when he had these things revealed to him confirming of course that the revelation was true?
grindael
do you propose that the Mormon church was the only religious authority supporting “racism” during that era?
do you believe that the “mark of Cain” was a notion ONLY put forth by Mormons?
I always appreciate the Evangelical lack of self-criticism, and to put it as it has been put so many times here…log vs. speck.
Mike R
do not confuse “exaltation” with being “Almighty”.
Romans 8:16 Romans 8:17 Acts 17:29
also what about JC in
John 10:34 and Psalms 82:6
granted he is talking to Jewish stone throwers and making the argument that he has the right to be called the Son Of God (big “g”) since men have been proclaimed as being like gods (little “g”)…that being said, it clearly does not discount the obvious proclamation.
Matthew 5:48 – is this commandment a futile one? do you claim that God would give us a commandment that we were not able to achieve?…..so, to become perfect as Our Father is perfect means what? wings and harps?
Mormons have simply accepted the revelations that God has continued to provide since the OT. The foundation has been laid in the OT and NT, and has been furthered by the BoM.
McConkie explained that exaltation is “the continuation of the family unit forever in glorious exaltation in the kingdom of God… It is godhood.” Exaltation is also believed to include “a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever” (DC 132:19)
these exaggerated claims by the evangelical missionaries that Mormons are to be “Gods” is, as usual, absurd and ill-informed.
Like all cult leaders, Smith had a tremendous ego. Commandments were for others, not the “prophet.” Take the word of Wisdom:
Joseph had a bar in the Nauvoo House, until Emma made him remove it. (Saints Herald, Jan.22,1935) There is a license for this on record.
“Wednesday, 3—Called at the office and drank a glass of wine with Sister Jenetta Richards, made by her mother in England, and reviewed a portion of the conference minutes” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p.380).
One time “he rode through the streets of Nauvoo smoking a cigar” (“Joseph Smith As An Administrator,” M.A. thesis, Brigham Young University, May 1969, p.161)
In one instance, Joseph Smith asked “Brother Markam” to get “a pipe and some tobacco” for Apostle Willard Richards (changed to medicine in later DHC editions)
Joseph Smith frankly admitted that he “drank a glass of beer at Moessers” (DHC, again deleted in later editions)
BY had a distillery and most of the early apostles drank and smoked, following Smith’s example.
Smith taught the exact opposite of Jesus, CURSING, instead of loving your enemies:
“The brethren began to prophesy upon each other’s heads, and cursings upon the enemies of Christ, who inhabit Jackson county, Missouri …” (Millennial Star, vol. 15, p.727).
In Romans 12:14, we are counseled: “Bless them which persecute you; bless, and curse not.”
George Miller stated: “we ordained Joseph Smith as King on earth.” –no pretensions there!
2 months before Carthage, he ranted: “If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them…. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I…”
He was always fighting: ” I seized him by the throat to choke him off”
Calvin Stoddard related that “Smith then came up and knocked him in the forehead…Smith repeated the blow four or five times, very hard—made him blind – that Smith afterwards came to him and asked his forgiveness…”(Conflict at Kirtland, p.132)
Under the dates Jan 1 and 2, 1843, Joseph Smith related in his diary that he had “whipped” seven men at once and on another occasion had “whipped” a Baptist minister “till he begged.”
These are but a few examples.
Then there is the adultry, masked as polygamy:
Oliver Cowdery split with the Church in 1837 over Joseph’s affairs and wrote:
“I did not fail to affirm that what I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger’s…”
This is just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on and on, but cannot post it all here. These are not the actions of a follower of Christ. These are the actions of false prophets and cult leaders like those we still see in this day, Koresh, Jones, Applewhite, Manson and others. Smith changed his doctrine as he went along (compare the D&C to the Original Book of Commandments) & the Book of Mormon changes…. Whatever the winds of the times blew in his direction, Smith took what he liked, and incorporated it into his “restored gospel”. It was a convenient way to do whatever he liked. He was a meglomaniac and a fraud. You have a choice, you can come out from Smith’s shadow. I advise you to do so.
Wow subgenius, did you really just try to justify they Smithian hatred for blacks with “well we weren’t the only ones?” Did I understand that correctly? I have a BIG problem with that. We are not the ones EXCLUDING everyone else from salvation. YOU ARE. WE are not the ones who said EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG, YOU ARE. WE are not the ones who cannot defend the indefensible YOU ARE. How can you call this man a prophet, who said this about a man who tried to help the blacks during the civil war:
“… I WOULD NOT TALK TO HIM: I FELT MYSELF SUPERIOR TO SUCH A MEAN CONTEMPTIBLE CUR. I knew he was not after truth, but falsehood. “This Greeley is one of their popular characters in the East, and one that supports the stealing of NIGGERS and the underground railroad….he is one of the prominent newspaper editors in the Eastern country, and he is a POOR, MISERABLE CURSE.” -John Tayolr speaking of Horace Greely when he visited Salt Lake (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, page 119)
And this:
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the AFRICAN RACE? If the WHITE man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under the LAW OF GOD, IS DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.” Brigham Young -(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110)
But you know the quotes. Of course you do. The LAW OF GOD, IT WILL ALWAYS BE SO — straight out of the mouth of YOUR prophet. I don’t have a mote in my eye, they are full of tears. I was there when SWK gave his “revelation” on the blacks. Everyone saw through it. It was as phony as a 3 dollar bill. I advocate to find a church that teaches Jesus and the Bible, there are many good ones out there, without the racism, without the cursing of enemies, without the shadow of Smith. God is love. Those are the rantings of madmen! You have the evidence in front of you, but you justify, justify, justify! God is love, and would never lend his name to Smith, Young, or any who claim ties to them…
grindael,
As I’m sure you are aware of the tag line for everything in Mormonism is “…..therefore the church is true.” We should probably apply that tag to everything you’ve written and documented here. I say that because no amount of evidence can persuade the true believer from their position. I’m going to do a little preemptive strike here, having waged this debate with Mormons on MC for two years now.
What our Mormon friends will do is either deny what you have presented or try to find something in the Bible like let’s say David’s adultery and make some kind of parallel with Joseph Smith there by giving themselves an “all better now” blankey.
As far as this debate regarding the sinfulness or lack of it with their god, Mormons can make-up what ever they want. They can have him sinless in the premortal stage; why not? Anything to make it all work. Since their prophets are totally clueless, they don’t help the Mormon true believers much. Look, these folks could make a case that Big Foot is a descendant of Cain and not be a bit embarrassed about it because of course, it proves that the Mormon church is true. I get the sense that many of our Mormon friends know the whole deal is bogus but they can’t bring themselves to admit it. Can you imagine their world crashing down around them. Everything they hope and dream for, the way they order their lives…poof…gone. It’s easier, I guess, to just keep gritting their teeth, closing their eyes, covering their ears and repeating “….therefore the church is true.”
Question for Ralph:
Is Heavenly Father the God of this world?
grindael
read your history or be doomed to repeat it. Yes, the LDS church was not the only one guilty of racism, and yes all churches did not “recognize” those with the mark of cain, and no my statements were not a means to justify anyone’s actions.
There is a failure to understand even the simplest philosophical and spiritual shift that occurred across the entire civilized world at the time the United States was being founded. People did not necessarily believe that “slaves” of any race where anything more than natural. Only a son of a king could be a king and the son of a farmer would be a farmer, that was quite simply God’s will. The notion of “anybody can be president” is relatively new.
All of civilizations before believed “slavery” was no different than using a beast of burden, which is obviously supported in the Scriptures. So while not making an excuse for Mormons, but rather making one for mankind as a whole, is my point and the assertion that Mormon racism, blah blah is unique to our church history is a blatant falsehood.
Ask methodist preacher Richard Allen
Look into the origin of the Southern Baptist Convention
Read the book “the souls of black folk” regarding the presbyterian church
etc….
falcon
lather, rinse, and repeat
Hay Larry,
I’ll answer for Ralph since he’s sleeping. Why not?…the god of this world. It’s a perfect fit for Mormonism.
This is a discussion that Mormons are better at having with each other. It’s their playground, to speculate however they want. This is definitely not Christianity and whatever they want to say about the numerous gods in the Mormon pantheon is just flowing from their own fruitful minds in the tradition of Mormon prophets past and present. They could make a case for having a god of lightning, fire, rain, wind, agriculture and gravity…..who cares?
When we deal with Mormons, we must remember that it’s like the apostle Paul dealing with the Greeks. Those folks fought like tigers when Paul presented the living God to them. He got beat-up and thrown in prison for trying to convince these people that their was One God. Now extrapolate that to our Mormon friends who are under the impression that they get to be gods themselves. Give up on becoming a god? For a true believer that’s way beyond acceptable.
When Mormons talk about the “god of this world” they are rightly pointing to the author of Mormonism. The Bible describes the “god of this world” very accurately.
The God of the Bible says,
“Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.”
“I am the Lord, and there is no other…There is no God apart from me…There is none but me…I am God, and there is no other.”
Someone with a seared mind can’t see here what God is saying about Himself. How can these people be so blind? It’s easy when their god is “the god of this world.”